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The Story of East Potomac Golf Links · Designing Golf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: East Potomac Golf Links has been in the news a
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: lot recently. In late June, President Donald Trump said that
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: this important municipal golf facility in Washington, D.C. would close
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: down this week to undergo a massive renovation. The president
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: wants to transform East Potomac into a high-end major championship venue.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: But as of this recording, the course remains open. And
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: there's little indication that the project proposed by the Trump administration,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: is going to start anytime soon. So what's happening here?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: And what's the backstory? That's what we're talking about in
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: this episode, the full story of East Potomac Golf Links,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: from its early days as a model municipal golf facility
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: to its current status as a kind of political football.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is Designing Golf.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Here to help me tell the story about East Potomac
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: is a DMV local and my Friday golf colleague, Brendan Porath. Brendan,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: welcome to the pod. Thanks for being here.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Garrett, thank you so much. An honor to join you,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: especially on this subject. You are the expert. I may
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: be the local, but you've become certainly an expert on
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: this story and this property over the years.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: I've certainly heard a lot about it, but you bring
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: a different perspective as a local, I think, than I would.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I've been to these municipal golf courses in Washington, D.C.,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: but I haven't really lived on them. And so I'm
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: looking forward to hearing what you say. So, you know,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: first off, we're recording this on Tuesday, September.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: 1st, 2026.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: This is supposed to be a very important date in
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: the ongoing saga of of East Potomac Golf Links. So
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: what was supposed to happen today, Brendan?
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Allegedly, you know, this was when construction would begin on
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: the new Trump vision or President Donald Trump's vision and
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: his secretary, Douglas Burgum, for reimagining the entire property, quite frankly.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Not 18 holes of the golf course. It is really
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: the entire peninsula, and we can get into some of
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: the geographic details uniqueness of this property. But yeah, September 1st,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: some level, I don't know if they were bringing the
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: dozers and dump trucks in. Now there's been court intervention
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: on some of this that notice needed to be provided.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: But yes, September 1st was Donald Trump's vision for this
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: peninsula was to begin.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: And that the work would go quickly. This is all
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: based on a Truth Social post from June 28th. And yes,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I did visit the website Truth Social in order to
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: gather this information. Basically, in this post, which is actually
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: quite long, he does reassert that vandals were responsible for
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the failure of the recent Reflecting Pool renovation. So he
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: starts off with that. Then he kind of trashes the
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: current East Potomac Golf Links facility. He calls it dilapidated,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: worn out, very dangerous. He claims that many of the
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: trees are hazards to human life. He claims that the
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: grass is largely dead, that the greens are virtually unplayable.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And he then promises that this golf course will become
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: one of the greatest golf courses anywhere in the world,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: and it will have the ability to host major golf tournaments,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: including the U.S. Open, the Ryder Cup, the PGA Championship,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: and other top PGA Tour events. And He says that
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: the work will begin on September 1st. Work on the
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: new course, which will go quickly, will begin on September 1st.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Tom Fazio will be the golf course architect. It will
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: be built through the Department of the Interior and designed
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: to the highest standards of golf, but also in such
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: a way that the general public will love it. So
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: that was his statement on June 28th. After having just
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: kind of taken a tour of of this area of
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: washington dc so it is september 1st and and from
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: what you've gathered this morning brendan what is happening at
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: east potomac.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Right now uh business as usual aside from some camera
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: crews and media folks curious to see if something out
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: of the ordinary would happen as proclaimed in in in
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: these social posts and in other declarations um The tee
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: times are being booked. Players are playing as usual. There
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: does not appear to be any significant construction work. We'll
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: get to some recent tree removal and whether that was
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: a part of this. But business as usual. I spoke
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: to someone that was there this morning. Said it is
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: normal operation, normal scene, aside from a few extra camera crews.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the National Links Trust, which operates this facility,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: also has not heard anything about it potentially closing down
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: anytime soon. Has not heard anything official. Of course, they
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: know there's the potential that it could close down, but
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: they're not in the know as of this moment. You
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: mentioned that tree removal has been an issue recently. Locals
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: have noticed that trees are being removed at maybe an
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: unusual pace. Do you Department of the Interior, the National
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Park Service has claimed that this is kind of routine maintenance.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Most of the trees being removed have been diseased or
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: hazardous in some ways. But I think locals have also
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: noticed that some apparently healthy trees have come down. You know,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody in this situation is an arborist,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: but what have you been hearing about the tree removal
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: issue so far? This came up actually in the Washington Post.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: This became a bit of a story.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, just that Crews had shown up on site, and
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: obviously there's just a heightened vigilance about anything.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: People are out there, like, keeping an eye on things.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Anything happening on this peninsula, incredible piece of land just
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: based on where it sits in the origin of the
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: city or the plot of the city. And so there's
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: a hyper-vigilance about what's going on. And this obviously goes
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: back to some of the dumping of material from the
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: ballroom construction project, right? And that this became a site
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: for that dumping. So that adds to the vigilance. And
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: this recent tree work became a subject of scrutiny for
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: people both on site there and users of the park,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: users of the peninsula, and the media, which is tracking.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: This is obviously a very, very... significant story because it
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: involves Donald Trump, it involves a public park, it involves
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: the nation's capital. And so it is a hot button
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: story with a lot of interest. And media, Washington Post,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Rick Mace, who's been on this story for a lengthy
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: amount of time here, both some of the Byzantine nature
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: of the review process to Donald Trump's plans, reported on
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: trees being removed. Now, the number seems to be a
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: little larger than just some quick, let's cut a dead limb,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: let's cut a dead tree here and there. It seems
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: to be more significant than that. And this is by
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: the National Park Service. Their arborist said, like you noted,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: these were non-native, they were decaying, they were dying, they
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: were hazardous. You know, there's allegations that one was a
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: cherry tree, and was part of the, you know, picturesque
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: framing of a certain hole and really wasn't dying at all.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: So there's, I quite frankly assume the truth is somewhere
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: in the middle, right? That those that are hypervigilant are
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: going to presume all these trees are good and perfect
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: and this is overzealous work and that there were more
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: trees that were necessary removed.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen 60 as a number. Yes, 60 is strong. Now,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: But to be clear, East Potomac off-links has needed some
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: tree removal. There are dead and dying and decaying and
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: hazardous trees at East Potomac. It's not quite the threat
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: to humans that I think the president indicated in his
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Truth Social post, but it is an issue and it's
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: something that has been necessary to do for some time now.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: And so there's a little bit of plausible deniability on
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: the part of the government. Of course, this project happening now,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: right as September 1st was approaching, was certainly going to
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: cause some concerns for people. But as of now, that
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: seems to be the only thing that is happening because
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: the golf course did not close down. There isn't earthwork
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: going on. It has so far just been tree work.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: But suffice it to say, everyone is on alert. So,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: you know, why don't we back up a few steps
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: here and just tell people about East Potomac in general,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: give people an idea of what this course is and
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: what it means. So for those unfamiliar, you know, it
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: is a large, bustling golf facility on land owned by
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the U.S. federal government. It has 36 holes of golf.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: It has an 18-hole regulation course. It has a nine-hole
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: executive course. a nine-hole par-three course, a mini golf course,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: and a very popular driving range, among other golf-adjacent things.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: It is surrounded by public recreational areas. There's a road
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: encircling the golf course, along with walking and cycling trails.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: There are chairlifts.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Trees lining the road and trail, which feature prominently in
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the annual Cherry Blossom Festival. And then just to the
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: south of the golf course, there's a playground and picnic
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: area at what is called Haynes Point. So this entire
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: set of public amenities known as East Potomac Park, sits
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: on a man-made structure in the Potomac River, which is
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: adjacent to West Potomac Park, the site of the Jefferson Memorial,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: the Lincoln Memorial, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the Reflecting Pool.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: So East Potomac Golf Links is right there in the
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: midst of the most famous and visited part of Washington, D.C.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: So from a local perspective, Brendan, What does this golf
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: facility mean to people? What is its kind of role
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: and purpose in the life of the city?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: It's interesting how you just outlined. You would think this
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: was some sprawling plot of land based on all it
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: has to offer. But it is. It is fairly compact.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: It's all packed in there really well.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: The golf courses are all, you know, it's like sardines
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: in the cans. Right.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Very efficiently is maximized. And obviously that calls into question
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: some of the grand plans about what's possible on this plot. But,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: you know, to dovetail that with your question, it's a
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: facility that is something.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: For everyone, right? You talked about 36 holes. Well, you know,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: nine of those are part three course for beginner. Nine
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: are an executive course with multiple Ts for family. There's
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: this miniature golf course, which is a historic miniature golf
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: course that just had a million dollars put into renovating
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: and rebuilding it. The driving range, it is like something
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: for everyone, right?
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: It caters. And then, of course, the blue, which is
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: 72 holes and 60, I'm sorry, 18 holes and about
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: 6,600 yards, like your full kind of attempt at a
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: championship course or the closest thing to a championship course, right?
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: For the golfer of all ability. And so it's just
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: something for everyone. And I would say that goes way
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: beyond just the golf ability, right? The beginner, the intermediate,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: the more seasoned. So how it caters to every kind
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of golfer, it caters to every kind of across the
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: socioeconomic spectrum, in my opinion. And a lot of that
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: has to do with this location. There is not a
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: lot of golf around the downtown D.C. There's just not.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: There are some country clubs outside of town. Those are private.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: They're expensive. There's some public courses if you want to
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: drive 30, 40 minutes out. It is the facility of Washington, D.C.,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: of this central part of Washington, D.C. And so the
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: culture there is vibrant and incredibly diverse on a number
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: of different factors.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: And whenever you go there, you see this. As soon
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: as you step on property and spend some time there,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: you understand that that this facility caters to a diverse
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: range of people and a diverse range of skill levels
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: in golf. You know, part of the way that I
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: understand East Potomac is that for beginning players, it offers
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: a curriculum of golf. You can start at the mini
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: golf course. If you have very little golf ability, you
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: can go ahead and play this, the oldest continuously operating
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: mini golf course in the US, which it's purported to be.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: then you can move on to the driving range and
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: practice your full swing. You can putt on actual grass,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: on the putting greens. Then if you're interested, you can
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: play that par three course, the nine hole par three course.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: And if you start to master that, you can move
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: on to the nine hole executive course. And then finally
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: you arrive at the 18 hole regulation course, the blue course,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: which is the major golf course at East Potomac. And
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: so this is its purpose right now. It introduces people
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: to the game And it caters to a broad range
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: of players and folks in the D.C.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Area. And one other note I'll add is just time, right?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: A broad range of time. How much time do I have, right?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: We're talking about being in the center of the city
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: and you're off work and I can afford to do
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: an hour and a half. I can afford to hit balls.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: It caters to just a great diversity of time commitment.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: whether it be working up on a Saturday and playing
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: the full 18 holes. And so it just is something
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: for everyone. And it's not just what I'll call the
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: blue-collar player. It's everybody. It's people living in D.C. that
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: are making six-figure salaries, and this is the place that
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: they go play. And it's everybody across races and economic
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: and time ability, time commitments.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: So that's the kind of place we're talking about. Right now,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: its future does seem to be up in the air.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: So I thought this would be a good moment to
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: tell the full history of this park, this golf course,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: and then talk about what has brought us to this
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: current state of affairs. So taking it all the way
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: back to the beginning, the land that currently makes up
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: East and West Potomac Parks was originally underwater. Back in
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the early 1800s, the Potomac River ran much farther north.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I think it's north. I don't know. Ran much farther
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: into the city.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Let's say. Yeah, it would be like north, yes.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: North Beach, I guess. Pretty close to where the Washington
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Monument stands is where the bank of the original river was.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: But starting in the 1830s, some of this part of
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the river was reclaimed to create a railroad bridge. And
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: eventually the army decided to reconstruct the entire area in
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: order to make it safer and more functional. As part
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of this process, they created the island on which East
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Potomac Park now sits. Effectively, they built it out of
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: fill that they dredged from the bottom of the river.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: And they constructed a series of seawalls to formalize and
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: protect the island. Now, I'm calling it an island. I've
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: heard you and other locals refer to it as a peninsula.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: This is a true island or peninsula situation here. What
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: are we dealing with, Brendan?
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: I call it a peninsula just because there is a strip. Yes,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: it could just be an island. It's floating out there,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: it feels like. But there's a road that you have
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: to cross. It's not a bridge. It seems like it's
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: terra firma. I call it a peninsula.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Island or peninsula, whatever. I'll probably just kind of mix
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: it up and alternate between those two as we go along.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: So the thought from the beginning here was that this new,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: you know, man-made terrain in and around the Potomac River
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: would be public parkland. So in 1902, a Senate commission
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: puts together the Macmillan Plan. This is an incredible document.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: basically lays out the vision that becomes the National Mall
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: and the Potomac Parks. Now, the Macmillan Plan was one
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: of the first big expressions of what's now known as
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: the City Beautiful Movement. This is essentially a philosophy of
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: urban planning that became popular around the turn of the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: 20th century. Its emphasis was on the beautification and intelligent
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: planning of urban environments. And it was really a response
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: to the sudden disorganized expansion of cities during the 1800s, right?
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: During that phase of industrialization in the U.S. and around
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the world, which resulted in overcrowding, pollution, and a laundry
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: list of social problems. So advocates of the City Beautiful
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: movement believed that smarter urban planning could result in safer, healthier,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: more harmonious, more livable cities. So this was a social movement,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: not just an architectural and urban design movement. Its intention
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: was to create better, healthier cities. Now, among the advocates
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: of the City Beautiful movement were figures like Frederick Law
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Olmsted and Daniel Burnham, whose names might be recognizable. Indeed,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: both Olmsted and Burnham were on the commission that created
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the Macmillan Plan. for Washington, D.C. So I'm giving this
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: historical context because East Potomac Golf Links is very much
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: a product of the City Beautiful philosophy. It was part
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: of this push to improve quality of life through better architecture,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: better design, and better planning. So as officials in Washington
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: executed the McMillan Plan in the early 20th century, They
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: split Potomac Park into two sections with distinct identities. West
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Potomac Park becomes a kind of civic space. It's the
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: home of various monuments and tributes to the history of
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the country. It has a formal neoclassical Beaux-Arts aesthetic, and
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: it's meant to be a place for stillness and quiet reflection.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: East Potomac Park, on the other hand, becomes a recreation space.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: It is the quote-unquote model public playground where locals can
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: enjoy all manner of outdoor recreational activities. Its look and feel,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: in contrast to West Potomac Park, is more casual and naturalistic.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And this too is part of the city beautiful idea.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: A well-designed city makes space for its residents to exercise,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: get fresh air, and escape for a little while from
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: the concrete jungle. And that is at its core the
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: purpose of East Potomac Park and East Potomac Golf Links.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: So looking at it today, Brendan, I think this area
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: still fulfills that mission pretty well. What do you think?
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's part of what drew me
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: to the city and captivated me some 25 years ago.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Just understanding the history around it, the green space, the layout,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: and just the accessibility to everything. It's just an incredibly
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: fulfilling and well-designed city. I would just add recent extremely
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: recent to this is the development of the wharf across
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: the way which I know you're familiar with and obviously
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: that speaks to some of the booming economic economy in
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: DC recently it's just this is not a dilapidated or
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: run down area the wharf is just this bustling part
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: of the city now and it may have been dilapidated
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: in a prior prior generation but now it's you know
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: a concert space and mix of high-end hotels and restaurants
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and all these things that are sitting right across from
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: what you just described as this incredibly historic, city-beautiful green
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: space that is still fulfilling that mission.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of incredible how well it worked out.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: When you go to these places, you're like, man, this
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: is it may not have been executed fully to what
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the Macmillan plan set forth, but it really functions quite well.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: And it's still with us, you know, more than a
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: hundred years later and doing its thing.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I'll add, you know, DC, I noted is short on golf,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: the district itself, but it is not on green space.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: It's an incredible city for green space. And some of
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: that's part of the national park service in the mall,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: but it's an incredible place for, for green space. And, and,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: you know, to this golf course, this public accessible golf
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: course for all of its residents is a critical part
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: of that.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: So that brings us to the design and construction of
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: East Potomac Golf Links itself. Walter Travis was hired to
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: build the initial golf course at East Potomac Park. Travis
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: was one of the most interesting and innovative golf architects
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: of his era. If you go to thefriday.com, you can
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: read about his work at Cape Arundel in Maine and
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: the Country Club of Troy in upstate New York. Fascinating designer.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: He started work at East Potomac in 1917, and his
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: initial nine-hole course opened in 1919. Now, the most remarkable
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: aspect of this course, designed by Walter Travis, is that
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: it was reversible. In other words, you could play the
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: holes in both directions. So one day everyone would play
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the course clockwise and the next day counterclockwise. And as you,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: as you found out recently, Brendan, this idea goes back
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: a long way. I believe you played the, the reverse St. Andrews.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: How did that go for you? It was, it was fabulous.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Obviously it was, it was unique. It felt like certainly
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: an old course felt like at times you were just
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: playing on a different planet, right? It just, there was
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: like a, felt like connected a little bit. I don't
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: want to over romanticize. You felt a little bit connected
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: to a prior generation. Like you could feel this sense
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: of I'm going out into this field, but I'm going
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: to hit it and whatever, come what may, and I'm
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: going to chase it and find it and follow it.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: And I don't know what's all out there. And I'm
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: not always sure where I'm going, but I'm just out
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: in this field. And it felt like I was, it was,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: connected to a different era. And obviously there are much
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: more intricate and advanced design elements that, you know, can
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: pull off the feet of a golf course being reversible.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: But as a player, it really, without getting too, you know,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: over romantic about it, it felt like I was, it
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: transported me a little bit. I felt a little connected
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: to what the game must have been like. Yeah.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it reminds you that that golf courses
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: were once just kind of fields on which people played
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: as opposed to really directive and formalized courses. And yes,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: you know, when you, when you have a course that
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: you can play in both directions, you, that, that feeling
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: returns to you a little bit like this is, I'm
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: just out in the space kind of playing golf and
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: we can, we can play any which way we don't
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: have to go just in, just in one direction. So,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: you know, that's one aspect of reversibility that people like
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: is just the, The kind of aesthetic experience and the
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: feeling of a connection to the history of the game.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: But there are also some practical benefits of reversibility. One
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: is variety. You get two courses for the price of one, essentially. Day-to-day,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: different experiences. Two, for the maintenance staff, you spread out
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: wear and tear. So when you play in alternate directions...
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: drives land in different parts of the fairway. Players enter
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: and exit greens at different points. And so overall, the
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: heavily used parts of the course are not the same
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: day in and day out. And three, it's just a
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: good way to use a featureless piece of land, which
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: East Potomac Park is, right? It's just a man-made thing,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: a flat in the middle of this river. One of
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: the only advantages to terrain like this is that it's
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: easier to build a reversible golf course on it. So
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: if you have a hilly piece of land, very hard
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: to build a reversible course because a hole may be downhill,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: everything may be visible going uphill, everything may be blind.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: It just creates some awkwardness when you have dramatic topography
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and you try to go reversible. On a flat piece
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: of land, one of the gifts of that is that
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: you can explore a reversible or more playful routing approach.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: concept and so that's what walter travis did at east
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: potomac he knew how to use this particular piece of
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: land and turn a weakness into a strength so the
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: first nine holes at east potomac reversible nine holes so
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: i guess 18 holes technically turned out to be very
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: successful by 1921 the course is logging 65 000 rounds
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: a year which is huge for that era it's not
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: huge for this era but the but really, really a
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: large amount of rounds for what was then the population
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: of D.C., clearly there is demand for more. So in 1922,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: nine more reversible holes become available. East Potomac hosts the U.S.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Amateur Public Links in 1923. And finally, in 1925, a
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: third reversible nine opens. So now we have a 27-hole
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: golf facility. with three reversible nine-hole courses, and it's thriving, right?
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: This is the high-water mark for East Potomac golf links.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: And unfortunately, it is kind of downhill from there. Over
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: the next few decades, the courses at East Potomac lose
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of their architectural details, bunkers disappearing, greens shrinking,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing, right? But the biggest blow comes
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: when the driving range is relocated. It wasn't always in
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the place that it is now. And a couple of
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: holes near the clubhouse are eliminated. This creates a chain
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: reaction of changes throughout the three nine-hole courses. And by 1965,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: the reversible concept is completely abandoned. All of the courses
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: now play in one direction only. And that pretty much
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: brings us to East Potomac as it stands today, right? There,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: there was another, there was another course at it. It's
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: now 36 holes. There are some adjustments, but you know, it,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it's still a very popular, still a very important municipal
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: golf facility, but it does not bear much resemblance to
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: what was built in the 1920s. And it's in need
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: of some TLC. Would you say that's a fair characterization?
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, absolutely. It, it, um, I always say it's
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: incredible land. And by that, I mean, just by dint
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: of its location, right? It is flat, as you noted,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: but you can see the Washington Monument's in this incredibly
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: urban setting. But it does need, it is not in
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: tip-top shape. It needs work. National Links Trust has slowly
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and surely, done that, started that work, whether it's in
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: bits and pieces. They also host the reversible day. Obviously,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: we know the people behind that have some architecture chops
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: and understanding of golf history and that property's history. And
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: they would kind of try to lean into those routes
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: a little bit with their reversible day and trying to
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: find that old reversible routing. But yes, it's a heavily
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: worn and public golf course on a relatively flat site.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that we can acknowledge that
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: East Potomac off-links is not what it should be, while
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: also pushing against the characterization of it as a piece
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: of crap.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Because it's not. Especially now, it's in pretty good shape.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: It's a fun place to be. It's a fun place
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: to play, and people love it. That doesn't mean it
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: can't be better, but.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: It also, uh, we, we also have to be careful not,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: not to say that, you know, this place is just
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: a goner right now and it, and it needs to
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: be utterly blown up and reconstructed in order to be
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: something of value.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely. It's, it's not, you know, in Augusta national shape,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: but it's in good shape and playable and it's absolutely, um,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: in perfect shape, fine shape for what it is, right.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: A public golf course that caters to everyone. And they've
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: got a great, uh, superintendent who, you know, should be
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: up for sainthood, based on how much he's put into it.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: So this is not, to characterize this as anything close
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: to neglected would be totally off the mark. It's quite
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the opposite.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: All right, before we get to the recent events around
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: East Potomac, I want to talk about our friends at
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America, or GCSAA. This
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: partnership makes a lot of sense for us at Friday
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Egg Golf. Really, our company would not exist in its
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: current form today without the help and kindness of superintendents.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: GCSAA supports more than 21,000 members worldwide, not only golf
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: course superintendents, but also equipment managers, students, and educators. Celebrating
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: its 100th anniversary this year, GCSAA continues to ensure that
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: its members are on the forefront of research, education, innovation,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: and advocacy through a range of programs and services. To
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: learn more, go to gcsaa.org. Check it out. Great organization,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: and we're very proud to be working with them.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about how East Potomac found itself in its
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: current situation. At the moment, the property is managed by
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: a nonprofit group called the National Links Trust. We've mentioned
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: them a couple of times already. The National Lynx Trust,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: or NLT, was founded by two guys named Mike McCartan
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: and Will Smith. Not that Will Smith. This Will Smith
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: is a golf course developer and a co-founder of a
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: golf society called the Outpost Club. And Mike McCartan is
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: a golf course architect who has worked primarily for Tom Doak.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: McCartan is the world's leading expert on East Potomac golf links.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: He wrote his master's thesis at the University of Georgia
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: on East Potomac. And that thesis actually was my main
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: source for the historical background I just gave you. It's
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: actually a really good read. A lot of master's theses
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: aren't good reads. This one is great. It's available online.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I encourage people to check it out. So McCartan and
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Smith create the National Links Trust in 2019 with the
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: initial goal of winning a lease to manage not only
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: East Potomac Golf Links, but also the other two federally
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: owned golf facilities in D.C. Rock Creek Park Golf Course
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: and Langston Golf Course. Rock Creek and Langston are special
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: places in their own right. Rock Creek is a 1926
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: William Flynn design, and Langston is historically the home of
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: African-American golf in D.C. One of the shameful parts of
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: the history of golf in D.C. is that East Potomac
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and Rock Creek initially allowed white players only. So Langston
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: was built in the 1930s to accommodate black golfers. All
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: of the courses by the 1940s were desegregated. So in mid-2019,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: the National Park Service puts out an RFP for a
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: long-term lease on all three of these courses. And the
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: National Links Trust throws its hat in the ring. They
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: partner with the company Troon Golf for day-to-day management of
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: the courses. They link up with the architects Tom Doak
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: and Gil Hance, both of whom offer to waive their
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: design fees in working on East Potomac and Rock Creek, respectively.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: So it's an impressive proposal. And NLT's governing focus from
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: the beginning is twofold. One, they are totally committed to
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: affordability and accessibility. that these courses are for everyone. The
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: second big point for them is a priority placed on
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: history and architecture. And this is the aspect of NLT
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: that's a little bit unusual. They want to carry out
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: historically informed renovations of all three courses. Mike McCartan and
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Will Smith are golf architecture nerds. They love this kind
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: of stuff. And specifically at East Potomac, They want to
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: restore some version of Walter Travis's reversible design. In other words,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: they want to bring back the city beautiful idea and
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: the notion of the model public playground at East Potomac.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: They want East Potomac, as well as Rock Creek and Langston,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: to be shining examples of well-preserved, well-designed, affordable, accessible public
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: golf facilities in the nation's capital area. And in that sense,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: appropriate complements to the famous monuments of West Potomac Park
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: and the National Mall, right? East Potomac Golf Links should
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: be just as architecturally significant as those places. So NLT's
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: proposal wins, I think, unsurprisingly. And in October 2020, NLT
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: signs a 50-year lease with the National Park Service. Now
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: in the lease document, and this becomes important later, NLT
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: and MPS agree to a rough schedule for the golf
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: course renovations. They say that the renovation at Rock Creek
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: will be done by 2022, the one at Langston by 2024,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: and the renovation of East Potomac Golf Links by 2027.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Now in defense of NLT, the document does say that
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: these completion dates are dependent on the timeline for government
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: approvals and the compliance process. So from NLT's perspective, the
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: National Park Service, which is the government, has agreed to
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: facilitate those approvals. By signing this lease themselves, NPS has said, yeah,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: we can help you get these renovations done on this
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: schedule and make sure that things don't get held up
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: by various permitting agencies, you know. Okay. However you slice it, though,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: this is a very ambitious timeline, right? I mean, this
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: would have been a tough standard to hit.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: It's not a patch of sandy soil in rural America
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: where there might be fewer government oversight and fewer sort
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: of extenuating circumstances. So, yes, it's very complicated.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: This is the federal government. These are complex, in some ways,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: intractable properties. Yeah, these are tough projects. And that is
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: what NLT finds out over the next few years. They
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: do a great job fundraising. They quickly raise enough money
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: to complete the renovation at Rock Creek. And that is
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of money. That is like $ 20 to $ 30 million,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: $ 25 to $ 35, somewhere in that range. And so they're
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: ready to go. But the government is not ready to go. Planning, permitting,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: compliance processes, environmental approvals, everything is just taking forever. And
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: the renovation projects do not happen according to the schedule
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: in the lease. Now, in the meantime, NLT does make
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of improvements to the three properties. They spend
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: $ 8. 5 million on upgrades. And at East Potomac specifically, they
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: really improve the conditioning of the golf courses, right? Is
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: this something that.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: You picked up on, Brendan? Yeah, I mean, it's night
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: and day. You have people who know what they're doing
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: with a certain understanding of best practices, putting their full
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: time and effort and attention into Right. And whether they
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: have every approval or every dollar to do their final plan,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: you know, the final vision, it's night and day both.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I'm spilling water on myself here. I don't have my
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: usual water bottle. It sits, you know, but we've got
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: to continue with the story. You know, obviously NLT is
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: frustrated by how long it's taking to get through all
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: the red tape. They're doing a good job at the
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: courses they're doing. as much as most municipal golf operators
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: would do, probably more. But they want to make these
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: projects happen. So by early 2025, when the second Trump
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: administration is getting underway, NLT's struggles have become common knowledge
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: around D.C. And that's when a guy named William Doffermeyer
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: reaches out to them. Doffermeyer is going to be the
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: head lawyer, the solicitor, of the Department of the Interior.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: So for non-Americans, the Department of the Interior is part
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: of the executive branch of the U.S. government, overseen by
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: the president. Its main purpose is to manage public lands.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: And in normal times, this is a pretty boring department.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: They're just stewards of these federal properties. Under the second
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Trump administration, Interior has become much more of a newsmaker.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: They have looked to open up federal land for drilling.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: They've helped to rename certain bodies of water. And they've
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: carried out some of the president's priorities in the Capitol,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: including recently attempting to renovate the reflecting pool, which has
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: not gone well. But the president is very interested in
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: leaving his mark on the Capitol, on the physical footprint
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: of the Capitol. President Trump is keenly interested in that.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: And officials at the Department of the Interior have become
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: keenly interested in helping him do so.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: It is known that this is a way to impress
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: the president. Yes. Within the Interior Department, you have the
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: National Park Service, which manages national parkland like East Potomac Park.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: So William Doffermeyer. as the top lawyer at the newly
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: important and active Department of the Interior, could be very
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: helpful to the National Links Trust. So Doffermeyer starts meeting
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: with NLT officials. He seems to genuinely understand and like
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: what they're trying to do. And I think this is
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: important to say. Everybody I've talked to has said that
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Doffermeyer at least has a part of him that very
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: much wants to help NLT create great public golf courses.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: And he presents himself to them as someone with access
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: to the president and someone with the ability to speed
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: things up. But as time goes on, NLT does get
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: the impression that Doffermeyer has his own ideas about the project.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: He starts operating on his own a little bit. He
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: asks to be connected with other golf architects, including Bill Core.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: He meets with bigwigs at the USGA. He even starts
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: coming up with some of his own ideas for the property.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: NLT becomes concerned about where this is headed. And that
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: all leads to a meeting that took place in the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Oval Office at the White House on August 1st, 2025.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Doffmeyer is there with his boss, the Secretary of the
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Department of the Interior, Doug Burgum, and they tell President
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Trump and a handful of Trump's advisers about the potential
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: for a renovation at East Potomac. The idea of restoring
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Walter Travis's reversible design apparently does not come up. Instead,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: what is discussed is more along the lines of rebuilding
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: East Potomac from the ground up and turning it into
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: a high-end tournament venue, maybe even renaming it Washington National
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Golf Course. This appeals very much to the president, who
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: has himself developed a number of high-end tournament venues with
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: the word national or international in the name. So he's
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: on board. He's enthusiastic. This is a new way in
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: which he can leave his mark on the nation's capital.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: But there's a problem. And that problem is the National
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Links Trust and its 50-year lease. So during this meeting,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: the president says something to the effect of, well, do
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: we really need these guys? Maybe we can find them
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: in default. And at that point, I think the die
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: is cast. The administration is going to find some way
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: to cancel NLT's lease. And ultimately they do that by
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: the end of 2025. Now, a number of wild things
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: happen in the intervening months. The architect Tom Fazio is
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: brought on board. And at one point he tours East
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Potomac under a pseudonym. Also, as was widely reported, the
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Trump administration transports a large amount of dirt from the
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: East Wing reconstruction project to East Potomac golf links. Reportedly,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: this was suggested by Secretary Burgum himself directly to President Trump. Hey,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: we've got a lot of dirt here. We'll eventually need
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of dirt for this golf course project. It's
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: a whole ridiculous sequence of events, but I think that's
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: a story for another time. Because what's more relevant to
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about here is that the administration, starting
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: on August 1st, is looking for any excuse to find
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: NLT in default. And ultimately, Doffermeyer signs and sends the
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: termination letter on December 30th. The primary justification he gives
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: is that NLT has not adhered to the agreed-upon schedule
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: for renovation projects. So that ultra-optimistic timeline that we talked
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: about earlier has come back to haunt them. And of course,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: you know, this is pretty frustrating to NLT because the
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: government itself is the main reason NLT has fallen behind.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Now the government is saying, we're booting you for falling behind,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't matter. The point is, the lease is gone.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you remember when this happened, Brendan. At the time,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: what did you think? the future held for NLT?
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, I remember both, quite honestly. I remember October 20th,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: the date they got the lease. And I remember, I
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: remember it clear as day. A few people in the
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: area who I would, I don't know, label like part
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: of the golf intelligentsia or something. People, those opinions I
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: respect and enthusiasm for whatever, I would pay notice to, like, modern, modern,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: call them a ball. No, or instead of intelligentsia, I
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: don't know, but we're like, oh my gosh, this is a,
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: this is a godsend for golf in DC. We are,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: have been starved and this is, we're going to be
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: going down to East Potomac much more together. And it was,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: it was a really notable thing for people in the area.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: And DC is not, you know, it's a great city.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: It's not New York or Philadelphia when it comes to
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: public or private golf. It's, it's, it's not, it has
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: a great golf courses, but it was hailed that we
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: have an incredible resource in these people that are now
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: involved and committed to public golf courses. I remember that
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: day really clearly and the text messages I got and
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: who I got them from. It's interesting you bring that
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: up now. That sent waves around the golf community and
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: even just public recreational enthusiasts in the area. And then conversely,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: you know, five years later or about, you could sense,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: you know, obviously the current administration can be hard to
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: predict on a number of, on a number of issues
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: and what will become kind of a project, a pet project,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: what will become important, what won't. And you can start
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: to hear rumblings that, you know, obviously Donald Trump is
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: into golf. He's into golf course ownership and development. And
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: just to understand, and it I don't know if it
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: was helplessness, but certain there was a sense of foreboding that, look,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: he's in power. And these projects, like you said, leaving
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: an imprint on the place of where he sits in power,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: whether it be the Kennedy Center becoming the Trump Center
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: and all these different renamings. And golf being a particular
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: pet project and governance can be hard and not fun,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: but I think This kind of governance where I could
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: build a golf course in my image and name would
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: be one that he would be interested in and people,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: therefore people around him would be interested in. So there
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: was just a real sense of sort of uncertainty, but
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: foreboding that, you know, this, this sort of miracle of
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: having the right people in place to, even with all
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: the restrictions of being on federal land and the processes
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: in the area, we're going to get there with their commitment.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: to just being kind of upended really quickly. And not
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: to get too high level about it, but you think
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: of having a president so committed to golf, maybe more
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: than other things that you might think should be more
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: important to the seat of power, and the right people
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: in place to execute a vision that would be hailed.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Golf can be apolitical, even this day and age. It
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: would be hailed by golfers of all stripes, right? If
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: they could have come together, like there was a way
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: that this could have been, even the most dyed-in-the-wool liberal
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: would have been very appreciative of a support of Trump
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: presidency helping execute or hasten this vision, right? And it
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: was there and it could have happened. These could have aligned,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: but you had Dauphamire and Burgum sort of understanding that
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: they could appeal to a different sensibility.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was never a sense that Dauphamire and Burgum
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: could pitch the president the idea of a reversible Walter
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Travis design and that it would go over well. And
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: so from the beginning, as soon as this becomes a
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: pet project of the administration, there are different visions for
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: East Potomac that are pretty much completely incompatible. And that's
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: the problem that we're facing. It would be great if
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: everybody could work together, but they're not aligned in what
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: they want East Potomac to be. There's not a common
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: understanding of what this golf facility represents historically and what
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: it could be going forward. Now, the thing is, and
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: now we're moving into a different phase of this story, right?
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: The lease has been canceled. What happens now? I think
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: as soon as the lease is canceled, officials within the
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Interior Department have a major oh shit moment. It's kind
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of like, what happens when the dog catches the car?
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: This was New Year's Day, right? Essentially, it was December 31st.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: It was December 30th when the letter was sent and
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: all this was playing. And the question was, is You know,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: what happens on January 1st? What do you do now?
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Because first of all, the government has no one lined
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: up to take NLT's place. They have not found another
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: management company able and willing to step in, not only
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: at East Potomac, but also, remember, at Rock Creek and Langston,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: which are also involved in this lease. I don't think
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: the administration has any idea what it wants to do
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: at Rock Creek and Langston. I don't think they've thought
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: about those properties that much because they've been so focused
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: on East Potomac. So January 1st, 2026, they are in
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: a bind. Either they close down all three courses immediately
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: or they crawl back to NLT and say, hey, you
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: want to just keep doing the job we just fired
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: you from until we figure things out here?
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: And of course, that's what they do. And NLT agrees.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: So NLT continues with day-to-day operations. So that's just a
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: preview of the kind of issues that the Interior Department
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: is going to face in the months after terminating the lease.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: But before getting to the other problems that they're having,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about how NLT
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: plays this. So when their lease got terminated, I think
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: NLT had a couple of options. They could have gone
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: to war. They could have sued the government for wrongful
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: termination of the lease. And I believe they would have
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: had a pretty good case because the stated rationale for
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: termination was pretty shaky for a variety of reasons. This
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: is what a lot of DC golfers wanted NLT to do.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: You know, go fight, stand up for us. The problem
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: is that even if NLT had won this lawsuit, they
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: likely would have just gotten monetary damages. In order to
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: actually get the lease back, they would have had to
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: prove that the government acted in bad faith. And that
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: is a very high bar in a courtroom. So the
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: concern for NLT was, okay, we go to war, but
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: even if we win, we're very unlikely to get what
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: we actually want, which is to manage these courses. They
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: didn't want money. they wanted to keep doing their work.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: And besides that, they already have a lot of sunk
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: cost in Rock Creek and Langston specifically, because those renovation
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: projects were up first. They have raised tens of millions
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: of dollars for the projects at these facilities. And the
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: What happens to Rock Creek and Langston if NLT sues,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: gets some money, and has to go away? There's a
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: fear that those courses might just go away too. The
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: second way to play it, and the way NLT in
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: fact does end up playing it, is say you're disappointed
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: in losing the lease, say you disagree, but don't sue,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: don't come out too hard against the administration. Keep operating
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: the courses and maybe there's a way to stay in
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: the game long term, especially given that the government doesn't
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: seem to be prepared in any way to take over.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: And guess what? Early May comes around and the National
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Park Service announces a new deal with NLT. This deal
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: says that NLT will continue to operate and oversee renovation
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: work at Rock Creek and Langston. It says that NLT
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: will sign a new lease involving these two properties. And
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: it says that NLT will continue operating East Potomac for
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: the time being, but that NPS will eventually take over
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: there and carry out a big, beautiful renovation project by
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Tom Fazio.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: So, you know, when this deal became public, Brendan, what
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: were your thoughts? I, you know, obviously there was a
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: certain amount of empathy for the National Links Trust folks, right?
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, You're out, but oh, wait, we don't want
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: to be the ones that have to show up and
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: turn on the lights and cut the graphs and actually
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: manage these things month to month. It had to be
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: a tricky position. And so you're in limbo of like,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: is there a third outcome here where they decide they
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: really don't want to actually manage these, but maybe they'll
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: support their some hybrids? outcome here, right? So they were,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: it's a, it's a tightrope. You have to walk and
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: antagonizing the president at this moment, it seemed to be
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: like with ceiling us only one outcome when there were
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: still so much that seemed to be uncertain.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, it was a tightrope, you know, and
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: at stake were rock Creek and Langston and LPE loves
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: that courses wants those courses to survive and thrive. has
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: the money to revive those courses. And so they were,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, they had a lot of skin in the game.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those are two historic properties with their own critical
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: function in their communities. And I meet people who play
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: those almost every day. And so, yes, you don't want
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: to lose. And once you start playing out hypotheticals of
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: what you know, could happen if you lose, those just
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: fall into total disrepair. There's nobody, because clearly that didn't
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: seem to be, have the eye of the interior or
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump. It just like, what happens if we then
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: lose all three and there's no one there to pick
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: up those properties that are of importance to those communities?
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: That would be disastrous. Right. I think that's the bad
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: outcome that NLT was worried about here. So with regard
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: to East Potomac, Now the government has put itself on
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: the hook to execute this project. The week after they
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: announced the new agreement with NLT, they release a plan
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: for the renovated East Potomac. The plan is posted on
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: social media by Interior Secretary Doug Burgum. And by the way,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Burgum has become the point person for this whole thing
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: because William Doffermeyer is about to resign from his position
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: as solicitor of the Department of the Interior. He does
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: this in May. The DOI says that he's going to
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: reenter the private sector and, quote unquote, spend more time
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: with his family in Texas. So, yes, just going to
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: speculate here that maybe some people in the Trump administration
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: weren't super happy with how this situation had been handled
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: to that point. In any case, the plan that Burgum
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: shares basically shows what the rumors have suggested. and that's
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: that the administration wants to replace East Potomac's 18-hole course
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: and two nine-hole courses with one big 7,600-yard championship course
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: designed by Tom Fazio. There's also a large driving range
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and then a little pitch-and-putt course tucked into one corner
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: of the property. But essentially a complete reimagining of the facility.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Nothing of the existing site remains in this rendering that
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: Burgum publishes. And meanwhile, the president has been telling the
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: press that he wants the new East Potomac to host U.S.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Opens and Ryder Cups. That's the vision, a major championship
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: venue in the heart of the nation's capital. And the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: first concrete steps toward making that vision a reality were
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: supposed to happen today as we're recording this. Obviously, those
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: steps have not occurred. Golf is still being played at
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: East Potomac. So then now is a good time, I think,
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: to talk about the problems with the Trump administration. plan
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: for East Potomac. I think those problems are the reason
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: why we haven't seen immediate movement on construction. I've broken
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: those problems down into four categories. The first category is
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: local pushback. Brendan, can you just give me a quick sense,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: you know, from the local perspective, why the government's proposed
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: project would be unpopular? Because there is a line of
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: argument that this renovation would make East Potomac objectively better,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: that it would be in line with, you know, recent
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: projects at the park in South Florida and Memorial Park
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: in Houston, Copse Creek in Philadelphia. Sure. There are those,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: I've heard this on social media, people saying, well, why
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: are you objecting to this when you celebrated those projects?
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: And so what is the deal locally here, Brendan?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: Well, that's simply that that's not the vision that's being
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: proposed right now, right? And it has been pretty universally
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: denounced in the area. And, you know, I'll stipulate that Washington, D.C.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: and the metro area are largely liberal districts. communities right
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: yes but these objections come on a handful of grounds
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: some of them are just golf grounds golf reasons a
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: lot of golf could be the most right-leaning golf uh
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: enthusiast finds it objectionable that you're taking you know a
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: place that was under proper well-intentioned management and transitioning it
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: to something that's just grand and maybe impossible or of
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: a Fazio design from a yesteryear. There's that kind of grounds.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: And that cuts across all party lines. It's mostly been
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: not well received on the golf merits. There are obviously
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: the political hot button issues of Donald Trump trying to
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: claim or take over a public space or what should
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: be a public space and put his imprint and his
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: sort of sensibility on it. There are the grounds of
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: the plan itself eliminating non-golf spaces that are open to
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: many different parts of the community, whether it be cyclists, birders, camp, fishers,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: kids who go to the playground. There are elimination of
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: family barbecues, all this stuff. There's a lot of different
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: cross-cultural to it. There's the elimination of cherry blossom trees
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: that are some of the oldest. Japanese cherry trees are
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: some of the oldest in the district that would be
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: eliminated in this plan. So there's an environmental preservation element.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: It really cuts across a lot of different parties and
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: interests that just kind of find this proposal objectionable. And it's...
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: is built on top of the way in which it
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: was done, right? Which we just went through for the
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: past hour of, of people who seem to know what
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: they were doing, kind of unceremoniously being kicked out for,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: for a political reasons, right? It wasn't because they were,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: you know, Biden's appointees, you know, they weren't, it was a,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: an apolitical subject. So it's that, On top of that,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: and then the plan and what it eliminates and how
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: it affects a very vast different level of constituencies. It's
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: been not well received.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just run down some of the points
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: you made there.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: This plan would turn a 36-hole facility into essentially an 18-hole,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: a very large 18-hole golf course. And so instead of
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: having that something-for-everyone feel... and purpose that you talked about
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: toward the beginning of the episode, Brendan, you would have
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: this championship golf course, and that would be the focus
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: of the facility. Green fees would certainly go up, right?
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: The peak green fee at East Potomac right now is $ 48,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: I believe, somewhere around that for 18 holes at the
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: blue course. Notably, no one in the administration has claimed
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: that the rate would stay there after the renovation. They've
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: just said that locals will pay a lower rate. but
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: lower than what is a great question. There has also
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: been some confusion around the impact of this project on
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: the recreational areas at East Potomac. You know, from my
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: own reporting, I've gotten the impression that officials have basically
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: assumed so far that you would need to eliminate the
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: road and the trails and the open area at Haynes Point.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: But the plan that Doug Burgum shared and made did
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: not show any disruption to this area. But then, you know,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: when the president visited the golf course in late June,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: he was pictured carrying around a plan that showed the
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: golf course extending all the way out to the edges
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: of the island and eliminating these recreational areas that we're
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: talking about. So clearly there is some, you know, subterfuge
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: here about what the impact would be on those extremely
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: popular non-golf amenities in East Potomac Park. And that has
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: become a huge hot button issue recently with cyclists. and
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: walkers and runners and fishermen and the huge range of
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: people who use the non-golf parts of East Potomac Park.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just bringing in a whole other bucket of
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: different constituencies, some of which I'll say have been impediments
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: to the National Links Trust themselves getting work done at
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: these properties that they're charged with managing and are sensitive
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: to themselves, but also want to fulfill some of their
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: own some of their mission, right? But they're much more
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: sensitive to arborists or environmentalists or cyclists. And so you're
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: just bringing a number of constituencies to oppose this plan
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: and be concerned about this plan. They went public with
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: the plan at mid-May that did not show the elimination.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: And then a photographer for The Washington Post kind of
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: zoomed in on the plans as they were touring in,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: I believe, June 20th. So we're talking like a matter
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: of five, six weeks that whatever was on paper to
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: the public in mid-May was not what was being walked
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: around with underhand or in hand at the end of June,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: where it's golf all across the island or peninsula. I
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: think it's an island. You might be right. Pushing to
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: the edges of everything. No bike trails, no park, no place,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: like all of that. So that was six weeks where
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: that was just all gone.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, to say the least, people are in the
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: dark about what the actual intentions are. And that's created
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of concern. The second category of problems I
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: want to talk about is tournament logistics. Brendan, you're familiar
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: with East Potomac Park. And you're also familiar with major
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: championships and the attendant infrastructure and build out.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: And driving in Washington, D.C. and going downtown D.C. I mean,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: you're not.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: You're just, like, almost no matter what you do, you're
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: not going to have a U.S. Open or Ryder Cup
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: at East Potomac, right? No.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: No. No. I don't... It's laughable to even try to
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: address it on a specific point-by-point basis. There's not.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Unless we're all being teleported in holograms, there's some future
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: world where... there's spaces on the, it's just, it's impossible.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: It's hard enough to drive to a nationals game and
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: get through when, when that's in full attendance. And that's
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: not necessarily, that's, you know, a few miles away from
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: East Potomac and isn't on an Island where that has
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: to be, you know, it's, That world doesn't exist. That
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: vision for US Open Rider Cup just doesn't exist. There's
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: not the land. There's not the infrastructure. There's not the accessibility.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: It's just not possible.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe an unattended tour championship as has been made for
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: TV tour championship. Maybe.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: Cross my mind.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: Maybe. There might not even be a practical reality for
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: that either. I mean, yeah, there's nowhere to park. There's
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: one point of entry and egress. There's nowhere to put
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: a TV compound. there's nowhere to put the grandstands. There's
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: not enough room in this area and nowhere near the
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: number of access points to the golf facility that, that
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: would be needed. And, and so, you know, I've talked
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: to logistics people at, at certain governing bodies in golf about,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: about this claim that East Potomac park could be transformed
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: into a major championship venue. And, and yeah, you know, their,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: their response is basically, well, they're, A lot of work
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: would need to be done. A lot of work would
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: need to be done. And there are some huge problems
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: with staging a tournament of any size at this place. Again,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: no matter what is done to the golf course.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Right, right. And we're talking about a timeline, even if
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: it was feasible in some way. Decades. There's just no
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: way it could be done in any kind of... Hey,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: hasty fashion where the president himself would be around to
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: see it. I don't think I just it's such a
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: pie in the sky. Sounds cool. In theory, honestly. paper idea.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: And even as a golfing who lives here, the idea
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: of the spectacle of having a Ryder cup and a
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: floating Island in the middle of the district sounds cool
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: on theory, but it's just not possible. It's not realistic.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: Moving on from the second category of problems. The third
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: category here is geology. Now, I don't want to sound sensationalistic,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: but East Potomac Park is sinking. This is more than
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: a century old. This piece of construction is very, very old.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: It consists of river sludge. The perimeter of the island
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: floods regularly. Have you seen this, Brendan? Have you seen
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: kind of water sort of coming up?
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: At the edges, yes.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: The water table is very high. to the point that
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: if you just dig down a few feet below the surface,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: you kind of run into muck. The surrounding seawall needs
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: to be reconstructed. And I have heard that this project alone,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: independent of anything done to the golf course, would cost
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars. If you are constructing a
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: high-end tournament venue at East Potomac Park, you would need
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: to build a new seawall. You can't do huge things
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: to this golf facility without addressing the water table the
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: flooding problem and just the the fact that this whole
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: island is sinking back into the potomac river it's long
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: overdue for an infrastructure upgrade and this is a huge
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: project so expensive years.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Long yeah we're now talking about a project that not
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: to be dramatic could be pushing into the, to a
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: billion dollars. You know what I mean? Hundreds of millions
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: of dollars. This is, these are nine figures just on
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: the seawall alone. And that's before you get to the
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: idea of, uh, moving earth and creating a golf course
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: and building facility. Like we're talking about nine figure work
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: just to build something that lasts and build something that
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: will address the current problem.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The fourth and final category of problems that I
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: want to talk about that the administration will face in
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: trying to carry out this project, legal and regulatory hurdles.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: The Trump administration is currently facing a lawsuit regarding the
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: East Potomac project. In February, a group called the D.C.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: Preservation League joined up with a couple of local residents
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: to sue the government over this proposed renovation. The basis
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: of the lawsuit is that the government is violating its
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: own laws, effectively, including environmental laws, historical preservation laws, and
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: the laws that form the basis of the National Park
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: Service itself as an institution. So over the past several months,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: this lawsuit has been going on and it's served as
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: a kind of public watchdog, right? Whenever the administration makes
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: a move at East Potomac, the plaintiffs are able to
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: call for a hearing. In fact, there's going to be
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: a status conference regarding East Potomac on Thursday, the day
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: that this podcast will be published. And that gives the
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: plaintiffs an opportunity and the public an opportunity to hear
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: the government's lawyers go on the record about what's happening. So,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: you know, quickly, I just want to outline this. Under
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: normal circumstances, what kind of approval process would the government
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: have to go through in order to start doing major
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: work at East Potomac? Because, you know, I need to
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: remind people, East Potomac Park belongs to the people of
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: the United States. And so, yes, the government manages it,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: but in order to do anything with it, they're supposed to,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: you know, consult with the people and the people's laws.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: and give folks an opportunity to respond to, to these ideas.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: So first of all, they would have to go through
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: the compliance process for the National Environmental Policy Act or NEPA.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: Normally the administration would need to provide a full environmental
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: impact statement, which typically takes a long time to create.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: There are some potential shortcuts here, but, uh, you know,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: there's no evidence right now that this process has even started. Second,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: they would need to get compliance with Section 106 of
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: the National Historic Preservation Act. This is overseen by the
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. And again, normally, this would
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: take a long, long time. Recently, the agency has announced
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: that they're going to try to rewrite Section 106, but
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: since they're an executive agency as opposed to a legislative body,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be allowed to rewrite anything. They're
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: allowed to rewrite their own rules about how they implement laws,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: but rewriting the laws themselves. I mean, this is an
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: act of Congress we're talking about. And so that could
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: be challenged in court. The third part of the process
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: would be a review by the National Capital Planning Commission
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: or NCPC. Ordinarily, There would be a lot of back
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: and forth between the National Park Service and this commission. Currently,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: the commission is staffed by loyalists to the president. And
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: so this review process would not be expected to take
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: very long in the case of East Potomac. But again,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: it doesn't look like this process has started because East
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Potomac does not appear on the agenda for NCPC's next
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: meeting a little bit later in September. Finally, NPS, according
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: to its own rules, is supposed to provide notice and
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: allow the public to comment whenever there is a park
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: closure that could be controversial. And considering there was just
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: a rally a couple of days ago at East Potomac
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: protesting the potential changes, this would certainly be considered controversial
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: by any reasonable observer, and there is supposed to be
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: a notice and comment period before anything happens. So at
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: all of these steps in the process, with the exception
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: of the NCPC thing, at most of these steps in
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: the process, there can be legal intervention. And because there
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: is an ongoing lawsuit, that legal intervention can come quickly.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: The judge handling the lawsuit has signaled very clearly that
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: she does not want things moving forward as they did
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: at the Reflecting Pool and the Kennedy Center and the
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: East Wing. She wants this to be done by the book.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: She has said, you know, maybe a little bit loosely
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: that if you want to take 10 trees down, you
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: got to come to me. You got to come to
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: the courts and you've got to get this approved officially. Now,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: I think we have already exceeded the 10 tree limit
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: with the recent tree removal, but that is an indication,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: I believe, of the judge's attitude here. And so there
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: is some legal oversight here Brandon. And I think that's
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: a very important part of where we are and why
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: things don't seem to be happening.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: She did not obviously dismiss the case. She did not
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: grant injunctions. She just wants to make sure she hears
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: more or that more is disclosed before a lot of
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: work is just done willy-nilly or shown up and all
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: of a sudden this project is moving for a pace.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: I think she also, quite frankly, indicated, like, I'm not
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not the judges, it's not the judiciary's
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: job to tell the interior what to do with its
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: lands or can't do. But, you know, some of these
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: lands are owned by the people and those people have
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: a right to bring the lawsuit if they don't feel
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: like processes have been followed. And that's what happened with
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: the preservation group. So it's kind of in this wait
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: and see period of, hey, neither side, you're not dismissed,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: we're not granting the injunction. But what's the plan? And
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: what's going on? And it's September 1st. And, you know,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: the government or Trump's, you know, in this case, own
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: attorney in the hearings didn't really have a great answer
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: for September 1st. Well, because he said it in a
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: tweet or truth social is when it's starting. He's like,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: you know, that's the plan. But that plan sort of
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: is just a date thrown out without regard for All
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: these processes you talked about, whether it's these legal processes,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: these approval processes, or it's just how are we paying
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: for this? What is the actual work we're doing? And
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: we're here September 1st and it's supposed to start. We
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: have almost no details, public or reported, that they've pushed
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: forward on any of that besides the tour of the
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: property on June 30th. There's not been much, any further
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: detail other than You know, a tweet saying September 1st
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: we're doing it. And that's why we're here today. And
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: it's just kind of business as usual, aside from a
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: few trees.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: Even if the government were to go through a very
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: stripped down version of these official processes, they would need
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: to submit a final plan to someone. Yeah. And that
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: would be public. And that hasn't happened yet. And so,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the public doesn't really have a firm or
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: clear basis right now to object to specific elements of
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: the project because, you know, there has been a lot
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: of confusion about what the project will entail. when it
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: will happen, whether it can happen logistically, infrastructurally, you know,
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of doubt right now. And,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: you know, this lawsuit is kind of in a holding pattern.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: It's sitting there ready to pounce if one of these
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: regulations gets violated. And, you know, I should note, I
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: think there is this sort of interesting irony here that
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: exactly the bureaucratic red tape that NLT was struggling with.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: And that, you know, was the reason for the cancellation
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: of NLT's lease is the difficulty that the government is
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: now facing and, and, and carrying this out. And, and
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: so that is, that is where we are right now. And, um,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, do you, what are your
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: expectations for, for what happens next?
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: It's, It's hard to predict, and I know that's not
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: an exciting way to podcast here and with no declaration,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: because of the will, I think, of the administration to
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: push these things through and the importance that's placed upon
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: this kind of project and all the red tape you
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: just discussed, all the actual hard work that needs to
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: be done on fundraising, planning, construction, Um, it's, it's a
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: substantial amount of work and the, the administration's, this administration,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: I think is only in power for a couple more years, right?
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: At this point. And these are projects that are, are
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: going to probably be longer than that. And even though
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: the approval processes, when you factor in that, set aside
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: just the actual building or, or construction of anything. Um,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: Will they lose their will or will they just acquiesce
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: to be like, this is more trouble than it's worth?
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like that's going to be the case.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: And they're going to kind of push through on it.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: And will we end up with some half measure? That
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: feels like kind of the worst outcome for golfers, for
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: those who appreciate something that had history and architectural merit.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: There's also the case of Who will be operating, not owning,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: who will be managing this in the way that NLT?
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: Who's the next manager of this land? It doesn't seem
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: like the National Park Service wants to do this, is
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: going to do this. And a lot.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: Of the most notable management companies, golf management companies in
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: the U.S. don't want any part of it right now.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: And Fruit and Golf, to their credit, has made clear,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: you know, we come with NLT.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: And.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously the president manages golf course. It has a,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: has a family company that manages golf course. So it's,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: it's what's going to be done. And then what happens
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: if it's done when it's done, right. Who's, who's managing
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: this when we had sort of regardless of your politics,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: the right people and well-intentioned people in place, it's just
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: a golf issue. And so, um, If I had to predict,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: it seems like the will and determination of both the
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: secretary and the president here is to get something done,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: to leave a mark, to put a stamp, to make
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: some change of some sort on this golf course and
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: this property.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to have a win.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: Will they fully realize some grand plan of Tom Fazio
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: or the Ryder Cup thing? I just... I don't want
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: to even indulge that. I'm just talking about some new
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: grand golf course.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: Getting some version of work done and they're in, and
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: they're in an interesting position where there is the will,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: there is the desire for a win, especially after the
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: reflecting pool fiasco. I'm, I'm sure that secretary Burgum is
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: very motivated to, to make something of this golf course idea, but, uh,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: it's so hard to pull off. Right. And it, and
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: it would take real expertise, skill, know-how to make this
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: project happen. Not to mention like a lot of money. And,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: and it's just, it, it, I, I think it's that, uh,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: they're in a really interesting position here. And, and it's
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: important to me because I think it should be important
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: to all golfers because East Potomac from the beginning has
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: been a representation of what American municipal golf can and
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: should be. That was the notion that founded it. And
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: even though the course suffered over the years, it still
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: retained this wonderful character of a place where any type
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: of person could gather and get healthy outdoor exercise, play golf,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: enjoy the game. And so it really does represent the
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: best of what we have to offer in this country
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: for public golf. So yes, it may seem like I'm
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: obsessed with this story, and I am, but there's a
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: good reason for that, because I think it's an important story,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: and it's a story with enormous consequences around the country.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on this episode with me, Brendan.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: This was a lot of fun, even though it's a
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: tough story to reckon with.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate your time. Garrett, thanks so much for
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: having me on.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Designing Golf Podcast was produced by
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: Will Balsam. Thank you, Will. If you've been enjoying Designing Golf,
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: then make sure to join Friday Golf Club. Go to
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: thefriday.com slash membership to see everything that we're offering there.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: We have a new app designed by my colleague, Bo,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: and it is really fantastic. It's been a great place
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: for community discussion and community building and You know, it's
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: just avid golfers enjoying being in community with each other.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: So that's what Friday Golf Club is all about, among
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: many other things. I can't describe everything we're offering there,
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: but it's very fun, very cool. Thank you for listening,
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: and we'll be back again soon with another episode.