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War-Related Trauma in Israel with Maayan Aviv · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two, and one. Our folks, welcome
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited today to have as
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  Speaker 1: my guest, Mayan Aviv. Mayan, welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. Nice to meet you.
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  Speaker 1: All right. Mayan is a nonprofit entrepreneur. executive, and the
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  Speaker 1: CEO of American Friends of Natal, the U.S. partner of Natal,
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  Speaker 1: which is the Israel Trauma and Resiliency Center. Established in 1998,
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  Speaker 1: Natal is an apolitical, internationally recognized organization specializing in war
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  Speaker 1: and terror-related trauma, having served over 450 individuals. Under Aviv's leadership,
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  Speaker 1: AFN has mobilized critical funding and strategic partnerships to address
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  Speaker 1: the unprecedented mental health crisis stemming from recent conflicts. with
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  Speaker 1: a specific focus on scaling up crisis operations, workplace reintegration,
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  Speaker 1: and helping the surge demographic of traumatized young adults and
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  Speaker 1: first responders. All right, Mayan, just a little bit about you.
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  Speaker 1: Before we get going, share with our listeners where you're
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  Speaker 1: from originally and where you are currently. We will do it.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. So I guess my name is a big giveaway, right?
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  Speaker 2: It's not very American sounding. But I was born in
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  Speaker 2: New York City. Back then in the 80s, my parents
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  Speaker 2: are Israelis that were working in New York for the
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  Speaker 2: Israeli government. That's why I was born here. We moved
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  Speaker 2: back to Israel when I was a baby, and we
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  Speaker 2: moved back to the U.S. I did elementary and middle
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  Speaker 2: school here in New Jersey, where I've returned to as
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  Speaker 2: a grown-up.
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  Speaker 1: All right.
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  Speaker 3: Nice.
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  Speaker 1: All right. So let's dive in. How does all this
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  Speaker 1: start for you?
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  Speaker 2: Wow. So I have been in the non-profit sector, specifically
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  Speaker 2: the Jewish non-profit sector, my entire life. So I guess
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  Speaker 2: you could say that I do need to have that
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  Speaker 2: little meaning with my work and I deeply appreciate it.
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  Speaker 2: And so having that experience, you know, after four years
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  Speaker 2: as CEO in my previous position, I started to look
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  Speaker 2: for the next thing.
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  Speaker 3: And I.
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  Speaker 2: I wasn't looking in the nonprofit sector, but this position,
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  Speaker 2: it was like the universe was sending me a message.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we tried once. It wasn't the right timing.
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  Speaker 2: And then when the timing was right, I took a
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  Speaker 2: leap of faith, literally, and made the switch and joined
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  Speaker 2: American Friends of Natal about six months pre-October 7th. And
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  Speaker 2: that date was... to me, and I think to a
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  Speaker 2: lot of Jews in Israel and around the world, really
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  Speaker 2: made a difference in the sense of understanding what is trauma, right?
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  Speaker 2: Who experiences it and how and what levels? And so
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  Speaker 2: pre-October 7th, explaining to our supporters and prospect donors what
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  Speaker 2: American Friends of Natal does, what Natal does in Israel,
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  Speaker 2: was almost, if you didn't want to know, You didn't ask, right?
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't of interest to you. And I think October
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  Speaker 2: 7th made the impact of having everyone understand, okay, this
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  Speaker 2: is what Natal is treating because we have all felt
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  Speaker 2: it in one way or another on October 7th.
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  Speaker 1: And just for our listeners who are thinking, what the
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  Speaker 1: heck is October 7th? Give us the thumbnail, if you would.
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  Speaker 2: Right. So I guess maybe I'll go back even a
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  Speaker 2: little bit further, but Natal is an organization in Israel,
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  Speaker 2: and Israel is a state that has been under conflict
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  Speaker 2: for many, many years. Natal was actually founded as a
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  Speaker 2: result of our founder, who's an Israeli philanthropist, Jude Yovel Reconati,
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  Speaker 2: who saw the need back then of the Yom Kippur veterans.
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  Speaker 2: So Yom Kippur was a war in 1973, if I
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  Speaker 2: am correct, which I think I am. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: 50 years later, these veterans were coping with trauma symptoms, right?
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  Speaker 2: So the organization was founded in 1998 to provide a place,
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  Speaker 2: you know, physical support and mental space for these veterans
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  Speaker 2: and other civilians who were impacted by, at the time,
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  Speaker 2: terror attacks in Israel, ongoing conflict, missiles, rockets, you name it.
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  Speaker 2: That's the geographic area Israel is in, right? And so
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  Speaker 2: on October 7, there was an attack by Hamas coming
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  Speaker 2: out of Gaza into the area, Gaza envelope settlements, not settlements,
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  Speaker 2: I guess, kibbutzim, we say, right? And a music festival
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  Speaker 2: that was in the vicinity, and there was a major
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  Speaker 2: attack where thousands of Israelis have lost lives. And unfortunately,
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  Speaker 2: it was public, meaning part of this attack was using
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  Speaker 2: Facebook and all these live feeds. So exposing... Not only
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  Speaker 2: the victims, but also anyone who was online to the
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  Speaker 2: horrific things that went on that day.
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  Speaker 1: All right. I want to kind of jump back a
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  Speaker 1: little bit. Growing up, what was driving you such that,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, when you were in high school, when you
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  Speaker 1: were thinking, okay, what am I going to do in college?
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  Speaker 1: What were you thinking at that point?
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  Speaker 2: That's interesting. So I moved back to Israel mid-90s. I
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  Speaker 2: was in high school at the time. And so in Israel,
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  Speaker 2: you go to the high school, you go to the army,
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  Speaker 2: it's mandatory. That's sort of the road ahead. And I
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  Speaker 2: knew I was going in that road. You know, we
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  Speaker 2: had moved back to Israel. I went into high school.
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  Speaker 2: I had my friends. We were all very passionate to
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  Speaker 2: serve our country and be part of, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: ideology that Israel stands for. And again, this was the 90s.
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  Speaker 2: It was, I think, a very different lifetime. And I did.
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  Speaker 2: I graduated high school in Israel. I went to the army.
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  Speaker 2: I was an officer. I had an amazing, interesting service
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  Speaker 2: where you get to develop skills that I'm not sure
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  Speaker 2: you would have if I had gone straight to college
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  Speaker 2: off from high school. So I do think that those
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  Speaker 2: four years gave me maturity, for one, but also the
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  Speaker 2: ability to know what kind of skills I have, people skills,
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  Speaker 2: things you don't necessarily learn in college. And then after
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  Speaker 2: the army, and again, in context, early 2000s in Israel,
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  Speaker 2: there were a lot of terror attacks, a lot of
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  Speaker 2: bus bombings. That was my reality. And Right after the Army,
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  Speaker 2: I said, okay, I'm going to go visit my friends
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  Speaker 2: in the U.S., enjoy a little quiet time. And I
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  Speaker 2: ended up staying here, right, just living my life. I
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  Speaker 2: went to college here, and I was the oldest one
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  Speaker 2: in the classroom because I was, what, 25, 24, 25? Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: And it's different. I think it's a different perspective. I
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  Speaker 2: guess I see it with my own children that were
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  Speaker 2: born and raised in the U.S. So we'll see what
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  Speaker 2: their road will look like because there are certainly more
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  Speaker 2: opportunities these days than there were back then.
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  Speaker 1: You know, hearing you, thank you for sharing that, and
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  Speaker 1: hearing you talk about your early time in Israel and
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  Speaker 1: the passion you had for your country, and living during
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  Speaker 1: a time with bus bombings. Americans cannot possibly understand what
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  Speaker 1: that is. And I think it's very easy in a
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  Speaker 1: conversation like this to just gloss over that. How the
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  Speaker 1: heck do you live with that going on? I mean, what...
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  Speaker 1: cognitive machinations have to be in place to handle that,
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  Speaker 1: to deal with that?
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  Speaker 2: I ask myself the same question. And, you know, even
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: today I see my parents, my family still lives in
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  Speaker 2: Israel and the last, you know, three years have been
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  Speaker 2: hell to, I have no better word, right? And why
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  Speaker 2: do we continue living with that? And I think the
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  Speaker 2: simple answer is, is that the human mind just adapts.
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  Speaker 2: And it's part of the resiliency of the human mind,
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  Speaker 2: but we adapt quickly. I think the best example is COVID.
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  Speaker 2: How quickly did we pivot into working from home and
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  Speaker 2: changing our lifestyle and washing the hands became a ceremony almost.
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  Speaker 2: So it's, we pick up, we adapt so quickly to
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  Speaker 2: reality that I agree with you, to Americans living here,
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  Speaker 2: I think it's crazy what every Israeli goes through every
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  Speaker 2: single day. I When you are there, when I visit,
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  Speaker 2: I don't feel that stress constantly every minute. And you
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  Speaker 2: see how people adapt their lifestyle to make it work.
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  Speaker 2: Because I think we all want to live every day, right?
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  Speaker 2: We all do.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, is there a kind of adaptive denial going on?
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  Speaker 1: Is there an underlying, I mean, there's got to be
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  Speaker 1: an underlying stress. Absolutely. How this impacts your body and mind.
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  Speaker 1: So do you grow up with that? And you grew
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  Speaker 1: up with this intense, what, passion for your country, which again,
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  Speaker 1: not many Americans have.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, we have it, but it's not like that.
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  Speaker 3: It's not like that, in all fairness, and I think
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  Speaker 3: in all reality. I'm speaking for myself, and I think
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  Speaker 3: for a lot of people. But so do you, when
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  Speaker 3: you get to college, are you thinking, all right, what
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  Speaker 3: am I going to do? I want to do something
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  Speaker 3: for my country. What's a through line that gets you
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  Speaker 3: to AFN?
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  Speaker 2: That's a, so I honestly, I think I didn't think
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  Speaker 2: about it. I don't think I had it planned in
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  Speaker 2: my head, but... When I went to look for my
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  Speaker 2: first job, I went on jewishjobs.com because I knew that
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to be connected to that world in my work.
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  Speaker 2: And then once I started, and by the way, before college,
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  Speaker 2: I was working at the claims conference. So again, Jewish nonprofit.
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  Speaker 2: I was doing the translation for the Holocaust survivor applications
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  Speaker 2: for funds from the Swiss government. And The reason why
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  Speaker 2: I came to that job is because my grandparents are
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  Speaker 2: Holocaust survivors. So I think to your answer, a deeper answer,
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  Speaker 2: is that in the context of how we grew up
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  Speaker 2: in Israel, I grew up in Israel with grandparents that
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  Speaker 2: had escaped Europe. My grandmother survived Auschwitz and moved to
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  Speaker 2: Israel with her sister, but she lost all of her
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  Speaker 2: other siblings. And so with that context in mind, and
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  Speaker 2: also in high school, we were taken to Poland on
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  Speaker 2: a mission to do the March of Living, to see,
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  Speaker 2: you know, Auschwitz, to see the concentration camps, to learn history.
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  Speaker 2: And so as a child, when that's part of your education,
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  Speaker 2: of course, you're going to want to support the country
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  Speaker 2: that embraced, you know, your grandparents and are the reason
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  Speaker 2: they survived life.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's, it's in your blood.
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  Speaker 2: It is in my blood.
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  Speaker 1: It's in your DNA. Okay. So moving ahead here, you
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  Speaker 1: were talking about AFN and what it means. Continue on
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  Speaker 1: with that.
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  Speaker 2: So on a personal level, AFN, and especially post-October 7th,
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  Speaker 2: I believe that the work we do here is healing.
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  Speaker 2: It builds resilience. I see some of my own team
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  Speaker 2: members who share with me that the last three years
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  Speaker 2: they've had days where they couldn't get out of bed,
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  Speaker 2: and now those days are less and less because they
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  Speaker 2: feel that they're actually making a difference with the work
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  Speaker 2: that we continue to do.
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  Speaker 1: And what are you doing specifically?
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  Speaker 2: So American Friends of Natal is responsible to raise funds
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  Speaker 2: for Natal Israel. And Natal is a nonprofit in Israel,
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  Speaker 2: which means that all of its clients and patients receive
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  Speaker 2: the services for free. So the NGO is funded partly
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  Speaker 2: by the government, partly by businesses that buy services, and
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  Speaker 2: then partly by philanthropy. But what that means for the
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  Speaker 2: patient calling our helpline and being referred into our clinical
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  Speaker 2: unit or going through our career development model, those people
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  Speaker 2: do not have to pay for their services. So essentially,
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  Speaker 2: we're providing a platform for a healthier, thriving Israeli society.
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  Speaker 2: And it's one story at a time, but the impact
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  Speaker 2: of one story makes a huge difference on our lives.
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  Speaker 2: And so that's on the personal level. We raise money.
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  Speaker 2: We also raise awareness. And how do we do that?
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  Speaker 2: A lot of the work Natal does is looking at communities,
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  Speaker 2: especially in the context of trauma. So when an individual
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  Speaker 2: goes through the trauma, they are the victim. But their families,
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  Speaker 2: their neighbors, their supporting community, they've experienced it too. They
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  Speaker 2: need to support that individual. They're part of their healing journey.
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  Speaker 2: And the way we raise awareness here is by connecting
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  Speaker 2: to communities, recognizing that they know what trauma is in
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  Speaker 2: their own context. And I'm not gonna ask them to
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  Speaker 2: support someone in Israel unless I can really deepen my
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  Speaker 2: connection with them and understand what their community is going through.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe there are tools that Natal has that we can
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  Speaker 2: provide So I really think that philanthropy today, yes, raising
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  Speaker 2: money for great causes, and there are so many, but
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  Speaker 2: there's also a transaction that's silent almost where we can't
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  Speaker 2: only take donations and support. We also have to look
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  Speaker 2: at the person in front of us and say, how
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  Speaker 2: are you? What do you need? How can our mission
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  Speaker 2: help you? Because it has to be reciprocated in one
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  Speaker 2: way or another.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Who contacts you for help? The quote-unquote victims.
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  Speaker 2: In Israel?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Any civilian in Israel. So we have... two helplines, and
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  Speaker 2: one is dedicated for IDF veterans. And the other one
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  Speaker 2: is dedicated for any civilian in Israel. So if you
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  Speaker 2: are in Israel and you're experiencing any symptoms that are
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  Speaker 2: related to trauma related to war or terror, PTSD symptoms,
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  Speaker 2: you call the helpline. We have volunteers. Our helpline is unique.
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  Speaker 2: It also has outgoing calls recognizing that there are not
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  Speaker 2: enough therapists in Israel for everyone. many people just need
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  Speaker 2: that human connection, that phone call, that check-in once a week.
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  Speaker 2: If you need more than that, you're referred into our
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: clinical unit. But anyone in Israel can get the services,
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  Speaker 2: regardless of age, religion, or where you live in Israel.
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  Speaker 1: And for you personally, how do you sit with this
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: idea of trauma? I mean, obviously, you talked about your
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: childhood and kind of infused almost in it. But now
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  Speaker 1: here we are, you're older. What does it mean for
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  Speaker 1: you personally to be so close to it in a sense?
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  Speaker 2: It's very hard. The last three and a half years
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: have been very difficult for not only because what has
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: happened in the historical context, but also being part of
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  Speaker 2: an organization that specializes in trauma related to war and
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  Speaker 2: terror and talks about wellness. And it has really made
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  Speaker 2: me look inside to see what am I carrying with myself?
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  Speaker 2: How am I projecting it to my team, to my board,
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  Speaker 2: to our donors, to my clients? my support community. And
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: so you become more familiar with the term and then
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: you start looking, okay, they talk about restlessness. Am I
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: doing this? Or is this person suddenly doing this? And
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: you recognize a little bit more. I think with everywhere
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: you go, you learn, hopefully, people learn something new and
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: really deepen their connection with that. So I think... I
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: would say I've deepened my connection with trauma over the
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: last three and a half years. It has certainly pushed
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: me to do a lot of things for myself, for self-care,
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  Speaker 2: and really get those goals that I set for myself
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  Speaker 2: personally and recognize how to take care of myself so
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: that I can be great at my job.
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  Speaker 1: Post-October 7th. has your job been more difficult and challenging?
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  Speaker 2: Yes and no. Yes, because the reality is not one
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  Speaker 2: you want to deal with. on a daily basis. It's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: been pretty difficult hearing the stories, learning about the clients
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: and patients that are being served, and that the work
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: we do here for them has been difficult. It's not
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: an easy story to read. It's not an easy story
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: to tell. But it's also been less challenging in the
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: sense that more people understand what is trauma related to
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  Speaker 2: war and terror. And it seems that PTSD is a
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: term that more and more people know and can explain.
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  Speaker 2: So from that side, that has been less challenging, but
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  Speaker 2: also at the same time, now everyone is treating PTSD
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  Speaker 2: and trauma related to war and terror. So- Competitive, yes.
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  Speaker 2: Less challenging in explaining, no. And personally challenging to just
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: cope with why we do the work we do is
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  Speaker 2: part of it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, from my vantage point, thinking about the work
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  Speaker 1: you do, thinking about your position in the organization, I
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: would think, okay, how the heck does this person do
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  Speaker 1: this work I mean, there's obviously the very personal impact,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: the reality of what's going on. But then there's also
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: the job work. The wheels of the organization have to
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: be in play. How are you able to do that?
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  Speaker 1: You talked about certain skills or abilities you had that
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: weren't necessarily... what, taught in college. So what is coming
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: into play for you? How are you able to do this?
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: What are the skills, the strengths that you draw upon?
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  Speaker 2: I think one of my better strengths is reading the room,
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  Speaker 2: listening to things that are not being said, and then
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  Speaker 2: using that to advance. I'll give an example. When an
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: employee just... you see they're sitting quiet and you see
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: something's not sitting well with them. And I want to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: encourage my team to speak up, even if they're new,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: even if they're not sure. So it's just the ability
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  Speaker 2: to read the room and pick up on cues that
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: are not necessarily right in your face to just make
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the day flow more and to better the organization. So
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  Speaker 2: that's one skill I can think of that you don't
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: learn in college. I think also being able to use
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: other people's strengths and recognize your own weakness is part
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: of it. If someone on the team is an excellent writer,
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  Speaker 2: why not, right? It doesn't matter how senior they are.
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  Speaker 2: Why not? So it's more... a lot of people skill
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  Speaker 2: that you don't necessarily learn. And I think you also
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: learn with experience in life, period. And the older we get,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the more we know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, from where I sit, I would also
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: add that you have an ability to be able to,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: on some level, deal with the reality of what's going
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  Speaker 1: on in Israel and still, you know, keep things going, right?
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: It's like... It's like this thing where you're doing that thing.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's from where I'm sitting, it's so intense.
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  Speaker 3: It is.
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  Speaker 2: There are very intense days. There are.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it is. You talked about this reciprocal relationship. Everything,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I guess, on an existential level is reciprocal. But if
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: you're on a very... basic love, you're raising money, right? Ideally,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: ideally you would like to think it's some, you know, exchange,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: but isn't it enough for some people just to be
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: giving the money and helping in that sense? And that
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: in and of itself is an exchange or reciprocation, right?
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That reading the room is exactly that. It's knowing
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: how to reciprocate the relationship. It's tuning into things that
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: are not necessarily said. You know, if you meet up
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: with a donor and all they talk about are the
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: rooms and wings that were named after them, then you
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: realize this donor, what needs to be reciprocated is recognition.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: And that's okay. That's what they want. But you really
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: have to, you know, look for the cues that are
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: nonverbal oftentimes and just... And it's hard because it's not
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: like every donor I know I've had hours-long conversations and meetings.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: A lot of times it's an email exchange and then
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: a Zoom meeting and then a proposal and that's it.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So with those like two, three touch points, I really
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: want to make sure that I'm listening to the person
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: speaking to me because a lot of times not everything
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: is said and it's about, you know, putting the puzzle together.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: So who can help you folks? Who can be a donor?
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: So anyone who wants to support mental health, trauma related
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: to war and terror, PTSD in Israel can support us.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: And then anyone who can think of a collaboration, a
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: knowledge exchange, a research, a joint research can contact us
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: and we'll be happy to introduce, make the connections with
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Natal Israel on the team. So I think there are
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: so many ways to get involved today. It's not only
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: monetary and it's really important to remember that.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: And just kind of as we're winding down here, you
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: mentioned that you offer kind of weekly phone calls with people.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: in lieu of therapy or in addition to therapy? Who
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: does those? What are those like?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So our helplines are manned by volunteers that go through
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: a very extensive training period and are supervised by social
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: workers and psychologists, obviously. And that's the uniqueness of the
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: model is that you don't only, you know, you call
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: the helpline, some people have an anxiety attack, the volunteer
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: will do their thing Um, but sometimes on that call,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: the volunteer recognizes there's more that's needed and they'll offer,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: can I check in with you next week? And they
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: give you like a check-in call. We have, um, I
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: believe to close to 400 individuals that have that ongoing
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: relationship with our helpline. So it's, it's really important to,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: you know, to note that there are many ways to
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: get support. Not everybody needs therapy. We have an entire
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: community resiliency unit that goes out to communities to help
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: them build capacity for resilience and support each other and
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: be able to recognize triage sort of trauma symptoms and
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: have the knowledge of where do I refer this person.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So there's so many... Natal is a one-stop shop, right?
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: There's so many things under that one big umbrella that
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: there's really an answer for everyone.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Awesome. All right, Mayan, how do people learn more about
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: you and the work you're doing?
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Everyone is welcome to either follow us on our socials
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: at American Friends of Natal or visit our website, afnatal.org.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll have all that linked up here at
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist website. Podcast.com. Mayan,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: come on. You're amazing. Thank you. Seriously.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: Jeez.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Really. It's so inspiring. Look at what you're doing. Thank you. Yeah.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. Love to have
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: you back.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Would love to come back. Thank you.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: That's a good sign.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, yeah. All right. Take care.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Bye.