Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep 16 Louise Morris on building a major donor programme from scratch
Transcript
- Louise Morris she/her: But I think in this sphere, there are senior leadership teams and boards that maybe if they don't understand philanthropy, and why would they, if that's not their profession, think, well, we're an amazing cause, and there's some rich people out there, so how can it be so difficult? And so I love sessions with boards because I'm not an employee, we can have really constructive conversations, we can really think about what they can contribute and how we can get them more comfortable and confident with giving. Because a lot of the time when introductions aren't made or when people aren't engaging, it's because frankly, they're worried they're going to have to ask people for money. Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: And they don't need to. So we kind of look at how else they contribute and how they can do that in a positive way. Adam: Really pleased to have Louise on the Charity Changemakers podcast today. Louise, thanks so much for joining us. Louise Morris she/her: Thanks for having me. Adam: Yeah, no, was brilliant. And like I do every week, I give the guests the opportunity to introduce yourself because I always feel like I don't do justice to them. So yeah, tell us who you are and what you do. Louise Morris she/her: So I'm Louise Morris. I am founder and owner of Summit Fundraising, which is a consultancy and training company specialising in major donor fundraising. So I started out my career in Unilever and have worked in a lot of charities and worked my way through to now working with loads of different causes through Summit. Adam: and we're going to hear more about Summit and your work as we move through the conversation and how you ended up there. before we start that, we've got these quickfire questions that we like to fire off, give the listeners the opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. So first one's, what does a good weekend or a day off look like for you? Louise Morris she/her: Weekend would definitely involve pub with friends or dinner and arse with friends, we love having people around. Sunday would definitely be big meal with family. I've got two boys and my husband, family film and hopefully a bike ride, time outside and seeing my boys play the sport they love. Adam: It's lovely to, it's a bit of a reoccurring theme actually of the podcast of getting outside and doing things outdoors. yeah, I think that's a really lovely thing that we keep hearing each podcast, which is great. What's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Louise Morris she/her: This one was quite easy for me because my boys always take the mick out of me for it. I've got a 15 year old and a 12 year old, but I really love nature and particularly birds of prey. We went on a family holiday to the Alps a few years ago and I saw an eagle for the first time and they maintain I cried. I maintain I just had some slightly kind of moist eyes, but yeah, I think they're absolutely magical and I love watching birds of prey and I'm really lucky I've got a buzzard near where I live in the woods in Surrey that like soars around and I think they're magical. Adam: Yes, superb. No, that's great. well, we've had a couple of birdwatchers on the show as well. And actually, it's a secret. Well, not so secret because someone did ask me on the podcast now. But yes, yeah, one of those pastimes that I really enjoy, really enjoy as well. Louise Morris she/her: You're going a bit too far Adam, I'm not identifying as a birdwatcher yet but Adam: Okay, you're not there yet. Louise Morris she/her: I'm not there yet, give me another 10 years but I probably am really, if that's the thing that gives me joy then I probably am. Adam: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, indeed. Okay. Great. Well, I can, when you want a recommendation on binoculars, I'm your man. So, that's a yes. So, yeah, no, that's good. And Louise, what's one thing that people always assume about your job that just, yeah, just isn't true? Louise Morris she/her: think they assume maybe I know loads of rich people personally, Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: which I don't. I interview donors for charities and I've met a lot of philanthropists but I'm quite like, state school background don't necessarily mix in those circles of a weekend, which I think people can assume if you've got a business where you're helping charities raise more money from philanthropists that actually you've maybe got more contact in your own circle than I do. Adam: a little bit of that as we as we move through the conversation. Louise Morris she/her: Hehehehehe Adam: So how did you I mean, you mentioned obviously about career sort of starting in Unilever. I guess we're interested a little bit is so what what pulled you into the charity sector? How did you get there? How did that sort of come? Yeah, come come about for you. Louise Morris she/her: Yeah, so I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I got a kind of grad scheme job. I was lucky enough to go to university in sales and marketing at Unilever, which loads of amazing training. And then my dad got poorly after I'd been there about four years and he had terminal cancer sadly and passed away. And I think it was just one of these big life moments that really makes you think, why am I here? What do I want to do? There were lots of Unilever lifers that you start and you stay. Patrons amazing, Matleaf's amazing, if you want to have kids, all of this. But I just thought I want to do something more meaningful. And I didn't know what that was. And I passed my CV onto a really, really close, amazing friend, Emily Shelford, who is an amazing fundraiser now in Sydney. And she looked at it and said, my gosh, just kind of account management stuff is what I do in corporate partnerships. This is really, really similar. So I've been thinking about fundraising, but that was my... My cross was a corporate partnership account manager job at Tommy's, the baby charity, which was really small back then. And yeah, and then I broadened out into relationship fundraising, philanthropy, director of fundraising world before summer. Adam: Yes, right. Okay. So was that a quick journey through those roles? Obviously having made that transition, what did that kind of look like? Louise Morris she/her: It was kind of eight years I suppose in charities. Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: worked at Tommy's, baby charity. I worked at Samaritans when kind of mental health wasn't really as understood as it was now so that was really interesting and then I headed up a brilliant team at RNID, National Institute for the Deaf that was action on hearing loss for those that know in the sector that know about the very unusual kind of name change to and fro but and so that was Trust's major donor and corporate and had a really fantastic team there and then I'd had I had two babies two children along the way and I was on my second maternity leave and I was going to go back to that role and I was offered a director of fundraising role basically more locally that I took so yeah. Adam: Yes, yeah. So this feels like a mix of fundraising experience in there, I guess, on size of size of organisations from like you said, Thomas was quite small at the time, obviously Samaritan's a larger organisation. Was that giving you sort of, guess, exposure to different income streams having started in corporate? Louise Morris she/her: Definitely, so kind of broadening out, but all along kind of major gifts, so relationship fundraising. So, know, trust and foundations, major donors and corporate was definitely my wheelhouse and then specializing in philanthropy and individuals kind of since I decided I didn't want to stay as the director of fundraising. had a really young family. This was before really many, any job shares, part-time working was a four day a week job, but you just kind of did the same hours anyway. And my family were really young. I I think, I think my massive 12 year old with a little bit of attitude now was maybe one or two when I started. I wanted more balance and I also loved variety. So I liked changing causes and I know that's a challenge in the sector when people change roles sometimes, but I was really drawn to this variety. So I thought about what am I good at? What do I love and what maybe can I help the sector with? And that's when I realised that actually helping organisations with major donor fundraising was where I wanted to be, because I think it is an area of fundraising that's quite misunderstood. I also think, I'm not saying I've never been intimidated by a donor or by someone with wealth, because I have, but the training at Unilever I got, which was ostensibly to stand your ground with really tough negotiations with buyers, who were the people at Tesco or Asda that are buying your products as a supplier. me a really good stead to feel quite confident in that world. Like when I first moved over to the charity sector I was like everyone's so nice, these conversations feel so easy, even like maybe relatively more difficult conversations in comparison to what I'd experienced at Unilever. So that's when I decided to set up Summit Fundraising and work across organisations rather than within one. Adam: Absolutely. And having made that switch into the fundraising world, and you say obviously there's things that you've learned obviously in the corporate world that have shaped how you fundraise there, were there then things that were helping you obviously make that progression within your career within the charity world? don't know, or was it just the fact that were just soaking up the opportunity? Louise Morris she/her: I think both. think, you know, I'm a massive advocate of people coming into the sector, very relevant to, you you and, you know, Charisma do, because I think relationship management skills come in all forms and I'm often encouraging clients if they need to recruit a role to think really broadly about where those skills come from. I mean, companies like Unilever have an... level of investment in people skills and training that I've not seen in any charity, not even like one of the big three. You know, we were on residential training courses on negotiation and sales for like a week at a time, like multiple times in a year. And I know that the world has changed and even some of the big corporates can't do that all the same, but that definitely has been transferable. And I'm not saying that philanthropy and giving is like sales because I don't really like those analogies, but they're definitely are things that helped me feel more confident in those roles, I believe, and be able to bring a different perspective than maybe if I'd only started in charities from the beginning. Equally, I think people who've spent their whole career in charities, you know, are amazing. So I'm just really keen that we have that diversity of thought within the sector. Yeah. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what brought about some obviously, move from that director of fundraising role and obviously founder of Summit fundraising and going into consultancy. Louise Morris she/her: Yeah, I think it was that balance as I was saying was challenging. And when I worked with a lot of heads of fundraising directors, the fundraising directors of development, CEOs now and absolute admiration. They are tough roles and they are tougher now than they were when I was in them, I think as a whole. I think, know, we'll kind of come onto it little bit maybe in learnings, but I think sometimes you think you want to be somewhere in a career and then you get there and you're like, no. And I think I've always had support around me that that's okay. It's okay to kind of say, okay, I would like a different direction now. And I think having already changed direction from Unilever to the third sector when I was relatively young at like 24, 25, meant that I think I felt more able to do that. I'm also really lucky. I'm not a single parent. I have a partner and he was earning in a steady job. So we were financially able to at the time. before again a different time before cross-sublific increase and everything to take a slight risk and say, look, just try this out. So I had a couple of cheerleaders, which my husband, my mum who owned her own business in hotels for years, that said, look, give it a whirl. And I think the ultimate tug is that I did want to be there more for my boys. And there were a couple of moments, I'll get the emotional, when my eldest, who's now like five, 10, 15, was diddy in reception and very cute. And he really wanted to go to football club. And he couldn't go to football club because football club finished at four and I didn't have flex. and it wasn't really done to have flex to go and pick your child up at four. am such a supporter of flexible working and the way that COVID hideous as it was accelerated that for women, all parents and for everybody, regardless of whether they, they want to go and do some art after work, whether they're caring for a parent, because that was a literal kind of like this kind of kind of emotional heart kind of pull on I've got this role but it means that I can't you know and getting him really late and again some people manage that and enjoy that but the enjoyment wasn't enough for me to be doing that so yeah I wanted to and I think that maybe that the business knowledge to me and Aliva, mean, summit is very different for me. One Adam: show. Louise Morris she/her: full time equivalent with support from behind the scenes versus a global FMCG. having Adam: that. Louise Morris she/her: had access to the business world, think maybe when you set up your own business, feels a bit less daunting. And my mum's amazing role model, she had her own business while I was growing Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: up. it didn't feel, it felt scary, don't get me wrong, but it Adam: Yeah, sure. Louise Morris she/her: felt something that I was able to do and to push myself to do. Adam: Yeah. And I guess, yeah, quite intrigued as to what that kind of, guess that jump into consultancy felt like, and then trying Louise Morris she/her: This is- Adam: to build, build some it as well, alongside, you know, trying to bring that better, you know, what we talk about all the time now about better work life balance, right. But like you say, probably at the time less, you know, Louise Morris she/her: Yeah Adam: less around. yeah, how did it feel in those early, early days and building? Louise Morris she/her: terrifying and I've always earned. So to not have money coming in or not know when it would come in, everyone said to me, you'll have lumpy cashflow is what they called it. So some months Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: you'll have more work, some months you'll have less. And that was really, that was really scary. Also kind of before virtual meetings. you know, I was just out and about meeting people a lot, which I still do and which is actually a really good thing to do, think to learn from people, to learn from the sector all the time, but that did involve a lot more physical travel because people weren't meeting in a virtual way. But I'm really eternally grateful to all like my ex-colleagues, were lots of people. Martin Bishop who's at Dementia UK, they were one of my first clients. said to people that this is what I think I'm doing. What do you think? Do you think this is what would help charities? Where do you think my skills are? Where do you think my strengths are? And through some of those conversations came actually we are looking at major journey fundraising and we'd love you to take a look at it. But it felt, it felt scary. It felt like a really hard slog and it felt very uncertain. And I think now Summit fundraising is 10 years old. feels very different but it's definitely been a journey to get there and I think it's easy for freelancers or people setting up to see what you're doing and think it's always been like that and it definitely wasn't and I did bits of interim work some of which Adam: Yeah, Definitely. Louise Morris she/her: I enjoyed some of which I enjoyed less some of which I enjoyed more because I needed bills to pay and then it's kind of evolved I wanted to speak at conferences nobody wanted me to because they hadn't heard from me, so we were talking earlier, weren't we, about equality of access to people. So I've done conference sessions in the past with fundraisers I've worked with who've never spoken before. And again, I'm really encouraging people to go and speak because it's really interesting how difficult it can be to Adam: Mm-hmm. Louise Morris she/her: break through some of that. So yeah, it Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Louise Morris she/her: was hard, but I immediately loved the writing and I immediately loved the feedback. I got what I realized is I always I've got a real growth mindset. I always want to learn. I always want feedback from every project. I got that from some managers, not from others. And frankly, if you're in a toxic environment, you're not necessarily feedback is not necessarily going to be correctly placed. And I have worked Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: in a couple of those. But what I found when I started working and doing projects and consultancy projects and training Adam: Mm. Louise Morris she/her: teams is I, you know, say like, what could have been better, what worked well. And people were so generous and honest with their feedback, but it was good. So I think actually it boosted my confidence very quickly. Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: And not to say I wasn't learning and I'm still learning from every client and from every donor I speak to, however, it helped me get over some of that fear and some of that. Do I really want to keep on doing this? Because, I mean, you probably... I imagine you and your team, Adam, have this when you place someone or when a charity is like, my gosh, this person started and it's really amazing. I have like similar where, you know, clients go to me, we, that donor that we were talking about that was really, really tricky or our philanthropy program that had really, really stalled. We've now raised this or we've done that. And it's just a really magical feeling. So I kind of call it my, like vicarious fundraising. Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: Even if I speak to donors, I'm not raising money from them. I'm finding out their experiences. I'm finding out why they're supported a charity, what they think of their own philanthropy. But further down the line, when I hear Adam: Yeah, indeed. Louise Morris she/her: feedback, it's not me, it's the fundraiser or the leader who's done the hard work, but it's nice to be a small part of that and to have heard what's happened. So, yeah. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Louise Morris she/her: I started to really love it and I started to really love the variety and I started to love working with different leaders, working with different fundraisers and then being able to bring that back into Summit and make Summit Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: even better in terms of what we can offer. So that was a very positive cycle from a starting place of fear it became positive. Adam: Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, it takes time to grow and to learn and to move into that. So tell us a little bit about what Louise Morris she/her: you Adam: Summit looks like and delivers today. Louise Morris she/her: Summit helps non-profits and charities at any stage of their major donor fundraising journey. So sometimes that is organisations who have never done major donor fundraising or they don't have a programme. They might have a couple of higher level donors. We do an annual from scratch programme, major donor fundraising from scratch, which is one of the things I think I'm most proud of. People come on the programme for four months and it's a mix of workshops. It's a mix of one-to-one sessions. I have a brilliant colleague called Divinia Batley. who's got amazing experience, who helps people in the one-to-ones and they basically get the nuts and bolts and the confidence for programme. On the other side, there are sometimes organisations that already have philanthropy programmes and are raising a fair amount but they don't know what next or they're looking at their philanthropy propositions which is maybe how they would talk about themselves to whether they think of themselves as investors or donors. And so we'll really take the time to get under the skin of what is their existing case for support? What did their current donors think? And that's like really deep work that I love again. And I worked with Divina on a number of those projects, which is joyful because she is brilliant. And I also do a lot of sessions with boards. So I think that's one of the. challenges with this area's fundraising, is there are misunderstandings about it? Well, there's misunderstandings about all fundraising, let's face it, that it's just shaking a bucket. But I think in this sphere, there are senior leadership teams and boards that maybe if they don't understand philanthropy, and why would they, if that's not their profession, think, well, we're an amazing cause, and there's some rich people out there, so how can it be so difficult? And so I love sessions with boards because I'm not an employee, we can have really constructive conversations, we can really think about what they can contribute and how we can get them more comfortable and confident with giving. Because a lot of the time when introductions aren't made or when people aren't engaging, it's because frankly, they're worried they're going to have to ask people for money. Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: And they don't need to. So we kind of look at how else they contribute and how they can do that in a positive way. And I do training. So I've done a lot of training with teams. larger teams in-house, which is really rewarding because I tend to do that over time. So we might have some initial training sessions, but for me that's fine. But we've all been on training and we've seen some cool stuff and then we kind of go back to our day job. What I tend to do is do kind of great team sessions after that to see what were the blocks, what they put into practice, maybe where have things worked with donors where I haven't to really like build their confidence. So that's been very joyful. And there's also for smaller organizations, just half day training, which is on the website introduction to mid-gen fundraising and philanthropic Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Louise Morris she/her: psychology. Cause sadly actually with a lot of the infrastructure bodies closing, there isn't as much available. So I do, I think 90 pounds for smaller organizations and it's more for larger, but just to be able to provide that, because I was getting asked quite a lot, is there a general course or something general on major donor fundraising that's affordable and it's £50 if people are in between jobs as well. And so there's quite varied but all for philanthropy programmes and all for major donor fundraising. Adam: Yeah, yeah. suppose I guess what an interesting question. Yeah, for organizations, clearly, obviously, the landscape out there at the moment is tough. And organizations are struggling. For an organization that hasn't got a philanthropy program or hasn't sort of tapped into major donor fundraising, you know, where, it feels like quite a big question for a short podcast, where does someone, where does an organization start? yeah, Louise Morris she/her: you Adam: what could that journey look like? Louise Morris she/her: could that journey look like? Well, I often talk about building blocks of a major donor program and what is kind of needed in it. And there are a few things. think, first of all, even to explore it is, you going to be given a bit of time and a bit of, I'm not talking about investment as in, you have to have Louise as a consultant come in, but just that space. What I see so often happen at them is that, I mean, I met somebody at a conference the other week who was like, I loved your session because I used do trust fundraising and I've just, we've had a restructure and now I'm doing major general fundraising as well. Nothing's changed and they haven't got a programme. That major general fundraising will not grow unless the conversations are had about what is not going to get done or is there a way of backfilling some of those trust applications to make it grow? So the first is our acknowledgement that it's specialist area of fundraising like all fundraising and it's high level relationship management and you need to have somebody. who can lead on it, even if it's, okay, I'm going to be able to dedicate three hours a week to thinking about how we're going to grow this, investigating what the building blocks are, thinking about it. That is really challenging and I don't say that lightly, but it's one of the biggest blocks I see. And I do get asked to come into organizations and they're like, it's not really working. We haven't got it off the ground. That's because everybody is run record and everybody is already at max capacity, including a CEO and other people who, whose time is needed for major donor program. So the first thing I'd be like from the outset for somebody to be able to do that. the second is like understanding like a culture of relationship management and having that. And by that, mean, like a lot of people know about supportive care, which is great. This is. a more bespoke type of fundraising and I think doing it badly, in my opinion, others may disagree, but doing it badly is worse than not doing it at all. Because Adam: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Louise Morris she/her: if you have got, if your trustee introduces you to somebody and you don't get back to them or they don't have a good experience, that relationship is damaged. And I have interviewed board members where that's happened and it's stalled the charity for years because there's no trust there. Or if your CEO has a meeting with somebody who is really quite interested, but they say, look, it's all going a bit mad. I'm selling my company or I'm very busy at the moment. Can you just get back to me in January? And then nobody gets back to them in January. You've lost that opportunity. You've lost your credibility. Or if someone says, I'd love to see a proposal and then it takes three and half weeks, but no one's communicated with the donor actively to say, I know I wanted to get to you this week. I'm so sorry. There are a few, but I will get it to you by this date. If no one's doing that. then it's not good. Adam: Yeah, suppose that sort of fits in that that conversation you've had at the conference recently, isn't it? Where there's, I guess there's an urgency for someone to try and bring another income line or from your pressure from a brother to bring another Louise Morris she/her: Hmm. Adam: income line and knee jerk reactions and just, just getting out there and trying and then like you say, not not then following through. Louise Morris she/her: Yeah, so I think understanding that relationship management is that and it's high level and it needs to be high level. And some of the building blocks that they talk about are that I mentioned, I mean, one of them is who, who are your potential donors? And I get asked that like a lot, or people go, we're not well networked, our board, they're not those kind of people. I've never worked with an organization that didn't have someone within their network. And that's sometimes the previous CEO met X, Y, Z or they're a regional charity and actually The Lord Lieutenant or the Mayor in that area is a really big fan of them and is quite well connected. So I often talk about connectors who can connect you to others on the one hand. And then there's also data and not everyone will have a CRM, but your potential major donors, your best potential major donors have already been involved in some way. Now some organizations might be like, but we don't have an individual giving program. They're still potentially going to have volunteers and it's a complete myth that people will give time or money. They're still going to have, I worked with a really small organisation who'd done a crowdfunding campaign and a few people on the crowdfunder had said they were happy to be contacted and they'd given a grant. So that was their starting place. And the thing that I love about philanthropy at MHJ and fundraising programmes is that they are scalable. So I don't want to put anyone off saying. you need like loads of time and you need to, you don't need to necessarily have a full-time maitre d'etat and fundraiser, but you need to have enough resource and enough leadership internally that it is consistent. So that could be half a day a week, but that that is consistent because what can happen is that it's very stop-stop because funding bids or if you've got a kill, like a challenge event, they all have dates and they're like unmovable. Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: people need to have the t-shirts before that event. The trust needs that application by the deadline. And if there isn't that kind of leadership and accountability internally to move things forward, everything else goes on hold. And then it's like, and now things have gone quiet. Let's see where we were at on major donor fundraising. Meanwhile, all those scenarios that I outlined could have happened Adam: famous. Louise Morris she/her: where a donor was left hanging where somebody wasn't got back to. And actually that's one of the reasons from scratch works quite well is because it gives people that window of focus for four months to kind of accelerate Adam: Thanks. Louise Morris she/her: it. But yeah, so I would say, you know, a list of who and wealth research can help hugely. And we won't go into GDPR and wealth research, but it is completely possible to do it within GDPR. That can be really helpful, even if you've got a small database to actually find out who on there is high net worth. Adam: Yes, yeah, Yeah, I did. Louise Morris she/her: So yeah, those are the kind of starting places I'd be thinking is, is this me that's going to lead it? Is it somebody else? And actually when we're talking about donors, who could they be? Because otherwise what can happen is it can be a little bit, well, it can be very scattergun. And this is when conversations sometimes happen at trustee level of, you seen the latest Rich List? Or have you seen this celebrity? And actually if you haven't got a link to them and nobody can introduce you, it's going to be a very bad use of time. Adam: Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what I'm hearing there is that you're saying actually for a lot of these smaller organizations, they may be, already got one or two or more, I guess, supporters that might be able to give up bigger, levels, but the organizations aren't being intentional about trying to find that time to try and unpick that and then cultivate those relationships really and build upon it. Louise Morris she/her: Yeah, and it's not seen as a priority. So the other thing I would be doing if I was in that situation is going to the board and saying, right, we need a year to explore this. And I've been working with an amazing charity who's done that and said, right, this is our feasibility year. We're looking into what we might need, how we might do it, what our existing networks are. But if we're going to do it, we're going to do it properly. And we're going to kind of scope out what it might look like without a target attached to it because lots of organisations. But there's lots of different aspects of what you would need for a successful major donor programme. And I've got a free guide on the website, which is three essentials to start out. So it's to start out in major donor fundraising, which is a little bit workbook-like. So you can kind of think about what's your culture like at the moment, how much to leadership and you kind of understand this area of fundraising, how far along are you? Because sometimes I work with really small organisations with small brands. who have got some brilliant relationships already and they haven't quite realised that there's some real opportunities there and then they start having conversations about, we'd like to do a bit more, we think some more people might be inspired by what we're doing, who do you know? And they're pushing at these open doors and then it's just really exciting. So it's not necessarily size specific. I've also worked with some really big brands. that haven't had that culture and that relationship management in place, although from the outside in people would assume that they do. So Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: it's, would say for smaller organizations as well, of its size can also be a strength because you can really do that. When you do that relationship management well, you can make your donors, larger donors and philanthropists feel a part of something really special, which is a little bit harder Adam: . Louise Morris she/her: to do. If I give to a top 10 charity and I give a hundred K, I, They do do a good job and I'm not dissing anybody who works at those charities, but it's going to be harder for me to feel. I'm small fish, big pond rather than the opposite really, because there's going Adam: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Louise Morris she/her: to be people, somebody who's given 10 million or 1 million or whatever. Whereas if I gave a hundred thousand pounds to a smaller organisation, it's more likely that I can get a sense of what that's potentially going to achieve and how I might want to be involved. And so I think that's Adam: Yeah. Louise Morris she/her: real strength of medium. and small orcs. Adam: Yes, yeah. And those organisations that are sort of thinking, blimey, this is something that we need to explore and you don't go to a chief executive or a board that have got a fundraiser that they want to support in setting up and starting out. What are the tools, what are the resources, what are the things that they could, alongside this time and being intentional that they can put in that fundraiser's hand to help start building it? Louise Morris she/her: I think hire someone with relationship skills or learn them yourself. I don't think we're good enough in the sector at saying, I don't know how to do that. And that's one massive learnings actually when I was director of fundraising role. I wish I'd brought more specialists in. I did have a strong team, but there were things that I just felt like, I'm in this leadership role. I have to like muddle through. I like wasn't probably mature enough or confident enough to recognize what I didn't know and what I wasn't good at and maybe where the gaps were in the team. And I'm always in awe. love it when, you know, like I get directors of fundraising, he'd go, really good financial experience, but they're like, we want you to come in and look at our proposition or you've got fresh eyes or we know that you've done this with loads of other charities and you've got the skills there. So it doesn't have to be me externally. It might be you've got someone on your board who is a fundraising trustee, love fundraising trustees, who's maybe, you know, done major donor fundraising elsewhere, who could be, you know, who could spend some time with you. It might be like a quick half day course, but I would say work out what skills you don't have and get them. Adam: Yes. Talk to me. I'll find them. Yeah, that's right. Louise Morris she/her: Exactly. And also think about people internally, again, these transferable skills, like I've, you know, seen like somebody who used to work on membership for an amazing charity, take a philanthropy, like manager role. She was so good on the phone all the time. She was so personable. She was really curious about people, all these kind of traits that mean she's going to Well, she has been brilliant. brought the organization's first 100k gift in. she like, think sometimes it's also being flexible internally and actually does somebody want to have these kind of either desire to go into it and could they lead it? How could they fit that in with their role? Does that will change? And just, I would say like an interim plan for the next year to 18 months, you're not going all in, you're not going to the board. Like we definitely need to invest in two people for this because I mean, that is a big risk. there might be opportunity to do that, but actually how do get to the point where you can kind of build that confidence and you started to put like the building blocks in place and you've started to build those relationships and to build the culture. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what some of the mistakes that you've seen charities make? They're sort of starting, obviously don't name any names. But yeah, but you've seen organisations make, guess, they're sort of starting out, or common pitfalls or... Louise Morris she/her: and lack of patience, which is ironic Adam: Thanks Louise Morris she/her: coming from me. My kids are just going to be really not very patient. was like, you should have seen me before you were born. I mean, they have taught me patience, but Adam: Yeah. Yes. Louise Morris she/her: I'm a doer and I like things to happen. Relationships aren't like that, you know, and I think sometimes just not managing the internal expectations or those expectations, not wanting to be heard. So it's both ways, it's fundraisers being, or leaders being really clear on that, but then it's also boards and senior teams hearing that and taking it on board. I will not work and I don't get approached very much anymore by CAs like we need money like tomorrow. I'm like, you're better off putting some more trust and foundation bits in and even in the current climate, and I know that's tough, than actually thinking it's gonna happen quickly. I've worked with brilliant fundraisers and one fundraising lead in particular. It took 12 months to get the meeting with the person they wanted to get the meeting. Why? Because it's not because that donor doesn't care. It's not even because they're like, I'm so busy and important. And it's just because there's other stuff in people's lives. So this might be your, this might be on your objectives and it's your job. It's not their job. They have families, they have parents who die. They have kids who struggle at school. They have family abroad. They may have business interests and complications like selling companies, merging, who knows? They may be retired, but beyond like, you know, four different boards for various things. I think all of those, all of those reasons as well as having to getting the building blocks in place. So I would say one is lack of, lack of patience and unrealistic expectations of how quickly money will come in. I would say to kind of link to that is not giving. the time for the building blocks to be put in place. They're not having a defined list of donors, not having results to carry out the engagement, not having a culture, a CEO or board who will help with it, but then going, why hasn't it worked? So kind Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: of trying to run before you can kind of walk would be my second one. Those are probably the key mistakes. And we've touched on the other one, which is nobody's Adam: Dead. Louise Morris she/her: really owning it and nobody's really accountable for it or somebody is, but they're the head of fundraising. They've got four direct reports. They've got five other income streams and it's just not going to happen, however hardworking they are. And that one actually really breaks my heart because I think there are instances where organizations in all those different things are unfair and cultures deteriorate Adam: Mm-hmm. Louise Morris she/her: because the kind of faith is lost because, Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: this person hasn't brought this money in or this person hasn't succeeded. And I'm like, well, of course they haven't succeeded because they Adam: Yes. Louise Morris she/her: weren't given the time, the space, the resource and the investment to do it. So. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Louise Morris she/her: Yeah, I've kind of seen, probably enough, I've seen quite a lot, but then I've also seen all of them be overcome as well, which is positive. Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, indeed. And I guess in those organisations, I mean, it's a very difficult question to answer. But I mean, how long realistically, you know, could a board or a senior leadership team, you know, they've been, you know, invested in the person given the time, you know, being intentional about that? How long is the wait before they begin to see see returns? Louise Morris she/her: Well, the biggest thing for me is that the milestones are shared, not just on financial returns. So they're in kind of lies madness. The beauty, because I know we all need money as the sector and every single charity is under pressure. But the beauty of a listed major donor program is I was just doing a session earlier on next gen for that. Because sometimes people don't want to give their money and people are like, a waste of time. But imagine if they earned a digital startup and they wanted to review all your social media for you and. sort out a plan for you and we're very quick to be like, no, we just need the money. And that attitude is frankly, it's got to change. And it also happens because nobody's there relationship managing sometimes. Often there's good practice everywhere. But one of the main things for me is what are the milestones along the way so the board can see progress. So that is about are the building blocks have things like wealth research, well, wealth research has been done. Have people been actually identified? Have you got ways to engage people? And so if you're saying as a fundraising lead, okay, I want 12 to 18 months, you know, they're not just not hearing anything for 18 months. And one of the other key elements there I would say is what contact are you having? So I talk a lot in summit about curiosity conversations, which could be an event, a trustee brings someone to an event and it's about, okay, you know, what prompted you to come along? How much do know about the cause? You know, where do they work? What's happening in their life? What other organizations are they involved with in the nonprofit world? And those can be coffees with the CEO. They can be a tour around what you do. They can be a quick 20 minute teams, because that's all you can get. That is one of the biggest indicators of success, because if you're not having those conversations, doors don't open. that I have worked with a number of organizations where that now goes to the board. So it's not just looking at the financials and that gives a real. So I'm not answering your question, I would generally say having a year if there isn't much income coming in or 18 months even where that is continued. But there's the milestones along the way of what's going to be achieved that year. And also the knowledge that targets are shared, which is probably a whole podcast in itself you could discuss with someone else. the more conversations that happen, the more doors open. I've had a donor say, look, I can't give and I'm not going to give right now, but I love the work you're doing. have you thought about this trust, which we had, but it was no unsolicited applications, which is infuriating. And they had a word and we were able to apply. And so we had a new 30 grand trust supporter. Adam: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Louise Morris she/her: So you can't like measure that in a major donor line. I've also seen kind of relationships for programs and staff kind of be tapped into because whether we like it or not, brings power and often brings connections and that the doors can be opened and sometimes that often that is so much broader than just the money. And yes, of course, that doesn't mean we don't have conversations about would somebody give, would they consider giving, how do they want to be involved? But I think one of the mismatches in expectations and well, how long do we wait is that people Adam: Mm-hmm. Louise Morris she/her: aren't seeing those successes that meant the trust team got an extra six figure partnership or the CEO actually gave through the company, but it's come to the corporate line and the number of conversations I have with major donor fundraisers about that where it's just seeing that major donor fundraising failed, but they spent nine months talking to somebody, they got 150 grand gift, but because it happened to be through a company, it's recognised elsewhere. that's, Adam: See you tomorrow. Louise Morris she/her: yeah, so those silos need to go Adam: Yep. Louise Morris she/her: to promote relationship fundraising which ultimately, because it could be that it is a personal gift to the company or it could be that it's a new corporate partnership and it doesn't Adam: Yeah, that's it. Louise Morris she/her: really matter and fundraisers say to me it doesn't matter but the way of reporting and their objectives and the culture is telling them that it does and so I would also say sometimes there are successes that Adam: Yes. Yeah. Louise Morris she/her: aren't seen by the board because of the way that reporting is done. Adam: way that it's reported internally. But I guess your insight there is really helpful about that. fact that it's clearly it's a shared responsibility across an organisation when it comes to Major Dana giving a bet and having that curiosity being able to ask those questions and see where those opportunities are and just like you say, doesn't just sit with this one individual or this one small team. Louise Morris she/her: Yeah. Adam: could talk for hours about all the different approaches and different ways that would be helpful. We'll make sure that in the show notes, there's some links through to the resources that you've mentioned in our conversation today. I guess I'm intrigued as sort of a final question for you, as you think about yourself and your career journey and how you've developed through your career and how things I guess have changed in the role that you are now compared to you know, when you were a director of fundraising or even, you know, across the Unilever potentially. As you reflect, is there one lesson, maybe more, that you've learned the hard way that's shaped the leader that you are today? Louise Morris she/her: I love this question, you really got me thinking and for me it would be that leadership is not your job title and even though I was a director of fundraising I had really mixed success in that role. I was brilliant at parts of it, I was not great at others. I'm now in a small company, Summit Fundraising and I've had like when I have... either taken a challenge in the sector head on, or when I give them voice to others or just stuff I've had people email me saying, thank you. And I've had a number of us who about saying, we're really lucky to have you as a leader in our sector. And I was absolutely floored when I got that because and it got me a little bit kind of too, because I suppose I thought I'd left that leadership journey because I hadn't pursued more, you know, director of fundraising or CEO or like anything like that. And I've gone down a different path. But Yeah, I think leadership takes so many forms. You can lead as a philanthropy officer when you don't think the values of an organization or you don't think, for example, you don't see any traction with the donor code of conduct, which is so important for keeping fundraisers safe. You can lead by posing the question in the meeting about that. You can lead, but in so many different ways at so many different levels. And so that would be My main line. Adam: No, that's great. Well, Louise, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I've really enjoyed that conversation and lots of really helpful stuff in there. Better give a plug out where people can find you and find some... Louise Morris she/her: I'm on LinkedIn, Louise Morris Summit Fundraising, that is social media to find me on and summitfundraising.co.uk, summitfundraising.co.uk, there's some blogs on there, some free resources. And if people want to learn about philanthropy and major donor fundraising or just get different perspectives, there's like a newsletter in a community that's free that people can sign up to as well. Adam: That's great. And like I say, we'll make sure the links are there. And yeah, thanks again so much for coming on the show. Louise Morris she/her: Thanks for having me, Adam. Bye.