Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / STA182 'Optimising Communication With Clients & Health Professionals' with guest Andrew McCauley

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STA182 'Optimising Communication With Clients & Health Professionals' with guest Andrew McCauley · The STA Clinician Podcast

• 0:00
  You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
• 0:04
  back into soft tissue therapy.
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  Music.
• 0:19
  Welcome to episode 182 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast. podcast.
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  My name is Matt Phillips, creator of Runjetlive.com, and this episode of the
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  STA podcast is, as always, being recorded live on a Tuesday at eight o'clock
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  on the Sports Network Association YouTube channel and the Sports Network Association Facebook page.
• 0:39
  So if you are listening to the podcast, thank you very much.
• 0:41
  Do please leave a review in the rating. It makes all the difference in helping
• 0:44
  us get out there to a larger audience.
• 0:46
  In this episode shortly, we shall be hearing about and discussing optimizing
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  communication with clients and other health professionals with special guest
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  Andrew McCorley the founder of ProCare Sports Medicine.
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  This episode is actually going to fit in very nicely with next week's episode
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  183 which is going to be recorded on Tuesday the 30th January which is entitled
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  Physiotherapy versus Sports Therapy in which I'm going to be joined by a group
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  of physios and a group of sports therapists so we're going to basically battle
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  it out to see who truly is the best.
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  No I'm joking obviously now i'm going
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  to be joined by three physios and three sports physios yeah and physiotherapists
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  and they're just going to talk about yes the tumultuous relationship which there
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  sometimes exists between physios and sts but through communication i imagine
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  we're going to agree that there are more similarities and differences but that's
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  the topic communication.
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  The episode is going to be streamed as well to the wonderful general oliver's
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  facebook group with the MSK HUCS, supported by Physiomads and MIHAG.
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  For which those of you who are unaware is a collaborative open network professional
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  therapist that was born from COVID, and it includes physios,
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  osteos, chiro, medics, sports therapists, sports massage therapists, and so on.
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  So if you would like to join us for that, that will be next week if you want to join us live.
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  Also, before I start tonight, my guest is waiting very patiently downstairs,
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  but he's already started rubbing his head in a slight primitive way,
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  so I don't want to leave him down for too long.
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  But I do have to thank last week's guests, David Barrow and Simon Taylor of
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  Rehab Guru, the founders,
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  who together talked us through not just a very comprehensive end-to-end patient management feature,
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  but also the importance and the benefits of this digital age,
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  ensuring the provision of oxygen patient client experience which again ties
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  it very nicely to the aspect of communication which we're going to be talking
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  about tonight and if you haven't checked out the website yet and i do encourage
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  you go to rehabguru.com there's a load of.
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  Information on there remember it's not just exercise description software
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  although it's very good what it's got it's also all the forms and
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  everything you need to look after your client from beginning to the end including
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  the booking the invoices everything you can need the whole experience
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  on all available podcasts and
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  also youtube you can watch the video and yeah check
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  it out right i've left him downstairs for long enough
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  like i say tonight on this episode we'll be talking to andrew mccauley who is
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  a very enigmatic and very i'm trying to think about the words now to pick him
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  up very respected sports scientist and sports and conditioning leader with a
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  degree in pe sports science and master's in sports and exercise medicine Edison.
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  He's also delivered the internationally acclaimed course on rebelling SSE therapists.
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  And some of you may have seen him at Therapy Expo this year,
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  where he had a few presentations during one of the SGA therapy up in theatre,
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  which is when does measuring force matter in rehab?
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  Really enigmatic, great educator in our industry, so very excited to have him along.
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  So without further ado, in this episode, 182, optimizing communication with
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  clients and other health professionals, which is now bringing us.
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  Music.
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  Hey, how are you doing? Good. I was just being a bit primal there, sorry.
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  A little bit, it was kind of like a double-handed social quimby thing going on.
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  I didn't realize you could see me. Oh, I can see everything.
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  Lucky it was just my head over the action. Exactly, yeah.
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  Thanks so much for giving me time. I was struggling for adjectives to describe because I,
• 4:25
  and a lot of other people, are really impressed with you at Therapy Expo, and
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  I actually felt ashamed of not knowing more about you before you
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  suddenly appeared because i'm not
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  to say this to kind of like pick up the ego but also
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  other therapists other speakers have had on the show
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  were coming to me going oh i'm looking forward to andrew's presentation
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  he's here isn't he later on and this included people like angela
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  jackson i know we have friends and colleagues and also
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  who else was there chris tyler but was
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  telling me about that never too old to lift.com andy hosgood
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  was telling me as well oh andrew's there i was going oh yeah that
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  would be good thinking but then and
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  i felt really guilty because then you came along and i
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  was like how do i not know that stuff because it was brilliant information to
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  go and yeah i felt very ashamed but then i realized the talk and now hey happy
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  days for you here you're forgiven so my first question is how come you're so
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  popular what is it is it a mixture of everything or what do you put it down
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  to is it i didn't think i was that popular Oh, you are, mate. You really are.
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  It's nice from Chris, because Chris did my course a long time ago.
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  I don't know, man. I'm pretty, I'm pretty straight down the line.
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  I'm not, I suppose I'm not over social media that much that,
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  you know, that's, that's a difficult one for me.
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  I tried to get on for a bit, but you know, so I, I just try and be who I,
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  you know, which sounds really naff,
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  but yeah, I just, you know, I just, the course is really like,
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  I listened to a guy called Seth Golden and you know, when I designed the course
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  I do or design any teaching or any kind of lectures,
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  I was always interested in the people who are going to watch it and try
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  and keep them entertained like you know because if you're going to come on
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  it I've been on plenty of courses and I'm not saying mine is
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  amazing or anything but I do try and entertain you for
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  for the time because sitting there for longer than half
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  an hour an hour gets really hard and yes
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  information is great but it eventually wears thin you
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  know only so many references and so many patient scenarios
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  so I try and you know implement some sort
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  of things that make people remember the presentation and
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  I remember remember watching louis gifford that
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  i live in cornwall and he he did a talk for the nhs when he when i came down
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  here first and it was not like any other talk i'd seen before in a kind of like
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  in an educational medical background he didn't really care he swore a lot which
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  i really liked and he was just everyone loved it they were laughing and it was like i came away going.
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  I just won't forget that talk ever and that's what i think i try and do as much
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  as i can so So maybe that's why. I don't know.
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  That's a brilliant answer to what was a terrible question, really putting you on the spot.
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  But yeah, I never realized you had that connection here with Louis Gifford.
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  I mean, that's a great educator and sad loss to everybody. That's amazing.
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  Of course, being down in Cornwall.
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  But yeah, that explains why. And also, I like the fact you're not on social
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  media because I'm working in this industry.
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  I do tend to be surrounded and go first to the person I see on social media.
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  So the fact you're not there as much is, yes, testimony to you.
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  And yeah, the great work you did. So great. That solves that. Thank you.
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  It's your second time, is it, at Fair Picks? Do I remember right? Yeah, second time.
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  Yeah, I did a couple of times. No, I did one talk the year before,
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  Why Patients Are Liars. Oh, great.
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  I wish I'd seen that already, but... Yeah, it was all right.
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  How do you find the event? I mean, it's changed a lot since it first started
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  10 years ago, but how did you find it?
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  Yeah, it was my first time last year,
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  so it's quite difficult for me to compare because this year was very similar again,
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  again and as we kind of discussed off off air you
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  know the quality there was was great as well like you know if
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  you're going there there's definitely a whole bunch of talks there's
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  a lot of talks maybe i'm not so much interested in but there
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  was some news product there was good products there as well that were useful as
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  well it wasn't just about you know getting rid of pain
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  you know i mean there's only so many gimmicks you
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  can do or get gadgets and stuff and but you know there
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  was a lot of stuff there that was looking at measurement and looking a
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  little bit more you know at how you you
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  could yeah assess things objectively which i was
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  quite was you know that was quite good and it was great i
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  really liked because i've met you last year from
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  a networking point of view it's it was really good did
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  not expect that and and i've and i've actually built really
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  like and again yourself there and a whole bunch of
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  other people and it's just it's not like totally intense
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  you can kind of walk around and you can spend 15 20 minutes chatting
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  to people and you know i mean it's not not like it's different to another conference
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  where it's like a talk right three four talks short break you might get stuck
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  with somebody for 15 minutes and then you're back in again whereas you don't
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  feel obliged to always have to go to the talks and you kind of wander around
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  and you and you meet really great people actually i said it did surprise me from that point of view.
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  And it's great to do the talks as well really nice venue that you know the tech
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  and everything there is really cool so i enjoy it that's great that's great
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  and it's really interesting you you notice the slight change in the content
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  for the stands and the things people are selling there.
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  Cause traditionally that's been a problem, especially if you like a few years ago, well,
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  when it first started like 10, 9 years ago, there was myself there,
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  there was Adam Meekins, there was Jack Chu, there was Seth O'Neill, there was Mike Stewart.
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  Mike Stewart, who's also been there with Louis Gibson and stuff in Cornwall.
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  And we were coming out with kind of quite kind of like stuff which wasn't really
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  mainstream with the kind of, you know, it's very Mosley Butler orientated,
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  which since had moved on.
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  But it didn't mix very well with the
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  120 different types of massage side's gone down
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  the road you know so there was this kind of difference between what was
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  being sold in the events and what we were saying but now and
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  this is something i was talking to with the organizers the other day in
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  fact bernard smith is appointed as the
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  coordinator but only you have to tell me what your position is but one of the
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  things we chatted about was we should be working closer with the people who
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  are on the stands with the products and you know what like you just said now
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  we can be because if we're doing a talk we're talking about the importance of
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  measurement this This is what we should be saying. By the way, Sanso's down the road.
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  Go and see them. And I think because now we're all more on an episode four page,
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  both the stands and speakers, we're all kind of more seeing from the same book as it were.
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  So we can fix more, which is so good. And even with the MSK conference as well,
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  which once upon a time was physios against massage therapists,
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  and some of the stuff which was being played by the massage therapists was pretty...
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  Were wrong and and so difficult for allied
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  health professionals to associate but now again kind of all seen
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  in the same book so it's exciting place i think
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  um yeah i think i've got a
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  meeting next week with them actually to talk about to stop we're
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  just there that they seem to be reaching out and looking for
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  for for that so that's really good there we go thanks bernard so
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  i've been ill for the last two days gary knows all about
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  it you know all about it don't know too much details about
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  what i've been up to but yeah business development manager vernon that's what
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  you're so good got brain like a sick tonight you may have
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  noticed anyway right all about.
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  You now andrew mccrawley i'm interested because
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  one of the things i want to know about your web
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  your how your website started and also your studies because
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  one of the things on your website it says sports medicine is still
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  in its infancy in the uk so obviously you've
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  studied that and you did a master's in
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  sports and exercise medicine what is it about sports medicine
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  which kind of separates it maybe be from the
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  other masters or degrees if you can do yeah so
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  yeah it's a great question i think i did mine in exeter which
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  has which was there because i live in cornwall so
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  it was great because it was two hour i could actually take a
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  day off work and still work and just go up there and do part-time i
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  suppose the difference when i looked at it so i did the modules that i
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  picked you of it just that's probably the easiest thing to say
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  that you have a statistical module like you will do with every masters and
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  then you have then you have some choices and there's like a biomechanics one
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  which was excellent and one of the so one of the world's best biomechanists
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  down there Sharon Dixon has done loads and loads of research and loads of stuff
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  with Ben O'Neill and things like that so it was she was there she was my actually
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  thesis lead as well so that was a great module so that's not really answer the
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  question and while I did have those two,
• 12:32
  orthopedic surgeons who ran the medical side of things so you had to have a degree in.
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  Yeah actually they didn't actually allow physios to
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  start with i had to contact them and say like they were
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  only looking at medics so i which was a bit
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  strange because every other sports medicine masters you can do it but so i i
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  called them up and they were they were fine with that and they said yeah no
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  problem at all so i had an orthopedic knee surgeon and an orthopedic shoulder
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  surgeon as my needs and then we did very like i had i had to go and spend i
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  don't know how many hours but But there was a certain amount of hours that I'd
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  have to go and watch surgery,
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  go into ESP clinics, observe their clinics.
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  So it was very medical based and very diagnostic making, clinical reasoning.
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  And that was the one of the exams was there was a couple of viva's.
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  But basically the viva was a whole day where I just did their clinic and they
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  just grilled me on the clinic and I had to do it. So it was it was very that
• 13:23
  was the medical side of things. There was very medical based.
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  They took each part of the joint and there was lectures on that.
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  That so it was very much up in your clinical reasoning
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  game and your evidence around treatment on that
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  both surgical and physical wasn't just rehab it was
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  what would you do for this patient so it's kind
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  of making you ready for an extended scope role which is what i
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  was doing at the time and still i'm doing that because i work
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  half and half i do nhs in hips
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  knees and shoulders as an esp and then half
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  the week in my private practice which is a mixture of stuff so i suppose that's
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  the difference i don't i don't like sports rehab i don't know i've never i didn't
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  even actually look at those but i guess it wouldn't have that medical side of
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  things i was in hospitals and i was you know i say i had access to all that
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  kind of medical side of things.
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  And then that prompted you
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  to set up pro care sports medicine.com because i
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  think i remember writing i'm still reading on your website you felt there was
• 14:20
  a lack of the information which you'd picked up yeah so so effectively what
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  what was happening is that in my world which is physio what was happening is
• 14:29
  that patients would come in uh who were maybe athletically minded and that population
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  growing as you know now there's a lot more people going to gyms a lot more people
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  doing doing athletically minded courses.
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  I hit classes and stuff.
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  CrossFit was growing and stuff like that. And what they were doing is they were
• 14:45
  coming in and physio departments where I worked in didn't have the equipment
• 14:48
  to measure or test them or actually show them what to do.
• 14:52
  So you were getting to a certain level of rehab and then it would have to stop
• 14:55
  because there was either no equipment available or the skills weren't there in the physios.
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  And then patients were kind of getting told that was the end of the road in some ways.
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  You know what I mean? That's it, like, you know, you're done. and i was like
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  going this isn't right you know how are we
• 15:09
  getting them back to sport how we really get or not even and
• 15:12
  it's not everyone thinks when you say sports elite it's actually just running
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  the weekend you know or whatever it might be which is usually related to a lot
• 15:19
  of these people's anxiety and mental health you know so these people are kind
• 15:23
  of like i need to get back running and getting told well maybe you should do
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  something else no offense to gps but that kind of old gp role where they were
• 15:30
  like maybe you should do some different sport maybe maybe cycling or swimming
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  and saying that to a runner is like,
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  maybe you should drink catsick. You know what I mean?
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  So it's like, it's just, I just, I just got this feeling.
• 15:41
  I think it's a big, massive, I suppose, market of people that were probably
• 15:44
  wandering around going, I need somebody who's going to really understand my world.
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  And then be able to give it back to me. And so I thought, right,
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  well, you know, from like, you know, I've been doing it.
• 15:55
  So 20 years now, maybe 21 years or so.
• 15:58
  And I just wanted to gather enough. When I was doing courses,
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  I did my strength and conditioning courses.
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  I did the masters. I was looking at going, what do I need to be able to give these people back?
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  And one of the things was something different. So you have to stand out in the market.
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  If you, you know, physios and a tourist, they're probably better now.
• 16:16
  Hour but certainly if you look at the whole grand
• 16:19
  scheme and physios and therapy so any therapist really
• 16:22
  I suppose the only reason I mentioned physio specifically because I
• 16:25
  was looking at them as my competition but you could say this on any
• 16:28
  therapist I guess you're just looking around at your competition and everyone was
• 16:31
  saying the same thing like a big dollop of vanilla ice
• 16:34
  cream everywhere and like I like vanilla but you know
• 16:37
  some people like coconut and chocolate like you know and I remember
• 16:40
  reading when I went into starting up my own
• 16:42
  business the best thing I did was did business applied to
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  um local kind of um commerce kind of
• 16:48
  business volunteer stuff you get like free training i
• 16:52
  even got five thousand pounds worth of of cash to
• 16:55
  put into the business you had to kind of quote for you
• 16:57
  had to go and do a kind of presentation and stuff but they they
• 17:00
  grilled me for two days about what why you're doing this what's your target
• 17:04
  market what are you trying to give to people what you know what's what's your
• 17:07
  whole mission around these things and only like one one guy said like you know
• 17:11
  can you draw your ideal patient and i was was like i was like i don't know you
• 17:16
  know so i'm gonna bust it out i'm like you know it was really.
• 17:18
  Naive then he's like oh no because you can't now
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  talk to them you're just going to talk like every other physio in
• 17:24
  this vanilla world so what i had
• 17:26
  to do then was like going all right well i read around it and i
• 17:29
  read the best book i read was purple cowboy seth gordon
• 17:32
  and he's an american marketer so that was one of the first marketing books
• 17:35
  i read i thought marketing books this is going to be awful and i
• 17:38
  was following a strength and conditioning guy at the time his name is Brendan Chaplin who's
• 17:41
  quite big now actually he's done really well himself and he was
• 17:44
  talking about it so I read that book and I was like that's that's
• 17:47
  perfect so the idea really you drive along a field and
• 17:50
  you see a lot of cows and if you see a purple cow you're like what the fuck is
• 17:52
  that like you know it's a purple cow that sticks out so I wanted
• 17:56
  to stick out in that in that area and I had done
• 17:58
  a sports medicine degree and and I have done a sports
• 18:01
  science degree and I thought I want to combine all that I want
• 18:04
  to I want to show people straight away that isn't slightly different than
• 18:07
  what you're going to get and I also position myself in the
• 18:10
  market with that I give you 90 minutes for an appointment so it
• 18:13
  wasn't your traditional 30 minutes and I don't take insurance unless
• 18:16
  the insurance pay you you know unless they pay them a lump sum
• 18:19
  and then they pay me I don't go boop or anything like that
• 18:22
  because they wouldn't pay that for the time so I kind of had to commit to that
• 18:26
  and I just positioned myself in that I said 90 minutes for new patient appointments
• 18:29
  and in that time I'm that's going to give me enough time as well and that's
• 18:35
  the thing I like like to speak about on a course is there's two people in a
• 18:38
  room when you're in therapy and you both got anxiety.
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  Now, the patient's got anxiety for different reasons. They'll be anxious.
• 18:46
  You're going to maybe tell them they never can run again or play football or
• 18:48
  to go to the gym or that they're going to need surgery or an injection or something
• 18:52
  really painful, or they've had painful things before in the past. You get the drift.
• 18:57
  Whereas with me, I wake up every day and again, like I guess for a soft tissue
• 19:02
  therapist or other people, it's like, will this pain go away?
• 19:05
  You know, that feeling of, will I be able to help them? and when
• 19:08
  they say oh that's really great you you get this
• 19:11
  kind of okay now thank god thank god for that
• 19:14
  you know what i mean like you know and so every morning i
• 19:16
  wake up and i still do it's different every day but i'm like
• 19:19
  i hope i can i hope i don't fuck up today i hope i
• 19:22
  hope i really get i solved this problem so every time
• 19:25
  i meet a patient i have to kind of like right relax and one
• 19:28
  of the things i found was if i have more time i'm way
• 19:31
  more relaxed because from the word go from a physio
• 19:34
  it's like like get on you know we were trained it's like get all
• 19:37
  this information ask all these questions and then assess them
• 19:40
  and then do something to them and then also give them exercise and then
• 19:43
  make sure they all remember all that and then they go away in 30 to
• 19:47
  40 minutes i was like it's pressure already
• 19:50
  so when the we get told to listen so this communication
• 19:53
  idea listen and understand and show empathy but if
• 19:56
  you're like going fucking 10 minutes gone here and all i want to do is get
• 19:59
  on with this because it doesn't allow you to to
• 20:02
  listen and shut up and and just be relaxed for a while
• 20:05
  whereas when i know i've got 90 minutes i really sink
• 20:08
  down into it and i can just wait there's no rush if
• 20:10
  they're rambling on about something is that rambling or probably
• 20:14
  allow me time to ask a better question you.
• 20:17
  Know and and i think if you get coaching training or communication
• 20:20
  training that's when you know because people go well what's a better question well
• 20:24
  you'll start to understand when you do actually communication training
• 20:27
  because you can can start to understand like actually and it's
• 20:30
  the timing of asking that question and i
• 20:33
  think it starts with giving the the physio or
• 20:36
  the therapist this in in any case the time
• 20:39
  to do that it's a very long answer it's a
• 20:42
  great answer and a magnificent sequence nice topic that's
• 20:46
  that's that's fantastic it's really interesting and when chapters be on the
• 20:49
  show we were lucky enough to have him as a guest a while back and that book
• 20:53
  was mentioned on other podcasts i saw the other the day the purple cow and the
• 20:56
  guy who mentioned it was basically on the show so great it's nice to hear familiar
• 21:00
  names and ideas coming out right the time already we're ready to get onto the topic,
• 21:06
  which you've already started to talk about communication i love the way that
• 21:09
  you say that it's so true the patient's anxious oh is he going to tell me i
• 21:12
  can't do this how long before i can do my next run or whatever it is and also
• 21:15
  like you say it's true the purpose is thinking i hope i'm getting ready i haven't
• 21:19
  had a good week this week it will kind of like go away and it's not It's not
• 21:22
  working. I've got to test to identify it.
• 21:24
  So, yeah, that's really interesting. So the last thing I do is just suddenly
• 21:26
  boil it up in a small 30-minute slot, or even an hour sometimes.
• 21:30
  I've got to get it done now. Very interesting. Right.
• 21:33
  So those of you who might have just jumped into the podcast halfway through
• 21:36
  because you're lazy, this is Optimize the Communication with Clients,
• 21:39
  Health and Health Professionals with my guest, Andrew McCauley.
• 21:43
  So you mentioned there communication and coaching, as if they were kind of synonymous.
• 21:47
  What is the kind of link between those two?
• 21:50
  Whoa, nice one. I suppose the best thing I would say, because someone,
• 21:55
  I did a recent coaching course, which I had done, and it was a great answer
• 21:59
  to what is mentoring, counseling, and coaching?
• 22:03
  Because again, you get that answer back about, you know, we're not psychologists,
• 22:09
  which is is a common kind of like, if I start talking about understanding mindset
• 22:12
  or understanding a patient's emotions or feelings,
• 22:16
  which I'm very big on, really understanding and educating yourself on emotional intelligence.
• 22:21
  And one of the answers is that counseling is performed by a psychotherapist,
• 22:26
  a psychologist or a psychiatrist who's going to use the past to try and help
• 22:30
  somebody solve their problem.
• 22:31
  A mentor is somebody who's using their experience
• 22:35
  to help you get to maybe where they were or
• 22:38
  using what they've done as a template or a blueprint to kind
• 22:41
  of help you so you're seeking them out to say here's
• 22:44
  what i've done and this is what i'm going to do which i thought was useful and then
• 22:46
  coaching is when you go to somebody and you have a
• 22:49
  you have a goal effectively you have somewhere where you
• 22:52
  want to be and that coach is going to help take out that
• 22:55
  information and allow you to get to that goal and build
• 22:58
  a journey or build steps to get in there and and part
• 23:01
  of that that is asking very sometimes tricky
• 23:04
  questions questions to let to really make that
• 23:07
  person solve their own problem in a way
• 23:10
  so that's what coaching is and it's and it's in
• 23:13
  my opinion and there's there's different definitions to it I remember being
• 23:16
  on the course there was a bunch of things said but that that's my thing I'm
• 23:20
  just trying to get somebody so whether a patient or whatever it is or even you
• 23:24
  know my brother or whoever once has a problem like well where are we trying
• 23:28
  to get to and then how am i going to be able to help that person solve that problem.
• 23:33
  And communication then is then a whole bunch of stuff that you can do to improve
• 23:39
  that coaching experience.
• 23:41
  Like communication is emotional. It's environmental.
• 23:45
  So again, I'm very big into some of the studies I mentioned in my course as
• 23:50
  well is about, you know, how you prepare the patient before they've even met you. you.
• 23:55
  So I often, in private practice, I speak to every patient generally before I
• 23:59
  see them. I don't have a booking system online.
• 24:01
  They contact me and I speak to them first just to make sure it's the right fit.
• 24:05
  But things like the waiting room, what pictures are in the waiting room,
• 24:09
  what the waiting room is doing, suggesting, you know, is there anything in there
• 24:13
  that's going to change their behavior?
• 24:15
  And there's some really good stuff out of Robert Cialdini.
• 24:18
  He's done a couple of books. One's called Influence, really old kind of psycho
• 24:22
  marketing book, which is amazing.
• 24:24
  And then another one called persuasion and he
• 24:27
  talked about a lot of studies about how your behavior is affected by
• 24:30
  images you see before you want to you see somebody
• 24:33
  so a lot of the pictures in my waiting room are
• 24:36
  about connection because again i'm i'm one of
• 24:39
  my coaching models really is that as soon
• 24:41
  as the patient comes in i'm going to try and explore them
• 24:44
  as much as possible as a person and then as soon
• 24:47
  as possible connect to them in some way so
• 24:50
  find things that they're telling me that i can build connection now if
• 24:53
  i can build connection before they've even came in the come in
• 24:56
  the room or as they come in the room so like a
• 24:59
  lot of patients will walk through my door and they'll see straight away
• 25:02
  a rack of dumbbells it's right up to 50 kilos now that's not for everyone some
• 25:07
  people might find that um intimidating or whatever but i guarantee that when
• 25:11
  i the population i see a lot of is the athletic population the people who go
• 25:15
  to gyms who you lift weights and you see them stop and they'll always make a comment.
• 25:21
  So they're already, you're already in somebody's head. And you're also,
• 25:24
  that comment then is an insight into, are they a bit anxious?
• 25:27
  Some of them, oh, you're not going to make me lift that up.
• 25:29
  I'm like going, oh, all right. Well, you know, are they scared of that?
• 25:33
  What, what, you know, that's already in the back of my head as a question.
• 25:36
  There are other people that go, no, I can't, how's the heaviest?
• 25:39
  I had a 10 year old in the other day going, can you lift that? Can you lift this?
• 25:43
  So there's all these kinds of like, even what they, you know,
• 25:45
  10 year olds are difficult to sometimes communicate with when they don't know yet.
• 25:48
  And we're we're bonding over this kind of heavyweight rack
• 25:52
  do you know what i mean so communication is everything you
• 25:55
  wait to deliver that coaching experience and it can
• 25:58
  be as i say people will often talk about body language
• 26:01
  which again people kind of talk i i
• 26:04
  find that communications people overestimate how
• 26:08
  good they're at it and underestimate how much
• 26:11
  training they need for it you know they
• 26:14
  underestimate how important it is and i
• 26:17
  think probably another other question you probably would have asked is like i always
• 26:20
  ask people to come on the course or in education how
• 26:23
  many how many have you done communication courses in
• 26:27
  a therapy expo in a room full of i don't know 50 60
• 26:29
  70 people and only two people had
• 26:33
  said they'd done any form of that it's usually motivational interviewing when
• 26:37
  it comes to therapy but that's it you know and that's great i've done that myself
• 26:41
  really useful but it's just interesting that people don't value it but once
• 26:46
  And from my point of view, I'm ranting here, but from my point of view,
• 26:50
  it's the number one skill that if you get better at trumps everything else,
• 26:55
  that you can have all the fucking treatment programs and the exercise plans and all that laid out.
• 27:02
  And you don't connect with that person. It really, really is a problem.
• 27:06
  And the better you get at that and the quicker you get at that and the more
• 27:09
  you invest in that, the better you will be as a therapist, regardless of soft
• 27:13
  tissue, physio, chiro, whatever you are. Amazing. There's so much in there.
• 27:18
  And your communication, I noticed this come up as you were talking,
• 27:22
  you've already managed to form an alliance with people in the room just by kind
• 27:26
  of sharing that experience of how even you, someone with 21 plus years experience,
• 27:30
  still has that same anxious feelings and new therapists.
• 27:33
  So straight away, that's a nice example of now, this person understands me, my ears are now open.
• 27:38
  It's like you say, I love the idea that the communication starts,
• 27:42
  not just when you say, oh, how are you? Good morning, why don't you get out or whatever.
• 27:46
  It's beforehand. hand and because some people have heard
• 27:48
  about the kind of nocebo effectively and i don't have kind of
• 27:51
  any of those horrible big red bulging disc diagrams
• 27:54
  and stuff and even a meniscus carefully taken out i know you can
• 27:57
  kind of make the patient start hurting stuff but it's interesting the other
• 28:00
  side the whole contextual stuff which you can help with yeah great
• 28:03
  stuff and i love that idea which you said of even if
• 28:07
  someone sees the weight rack and it sparks up
• 28:10
  a bit of anxiety if they mention that we saw that the way it's
• 28:13
  outside now you know which you might not realize realized after the first session
• 28:16
  that they have got a little bit of kinesiophobia or something kind of like something
• 28:20
  about lifting weights so great really good and the other thing I was one other
• 28:25
  thing I just got unpacking sorry was because I could I know how much this will
• 28:30
  this will resonate with our listeners.
• 28:34
  The other thing was often social media in particular, which is why you're not
• 28:38
  on social media, but a lot of social media for a long time has taken away the
• 28:42
  skills and the tools, particularly soft tissue therapists, thought they had.
• 28:46
  No, you're not breaking down scar tissue. No, you're not improving circulation.
• 28:49
  No, you're not doing this. Ha, ha, ha. No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not.
• 28:52
  And a lot of people just say, well, great. No, I put nothing on. I'll pack it in.
• 28:55
  But as we've said a lot of times on
• 28:58
  this show if it's more about facilitating that
• 29:02
  not operating on this client in front of you and it is
• 29:04
  there for communication then one of the massive helpful tools
• 29:08
  in communication is empathy which you can kind of
• 29:10
  learn about to train yourself but i find a lot of
• 29:13
  soft tissue therapists who like that manual contact anyway who
• 29:16
  are prepared to run their fingers up some heavy back full of oil they've
• 29:19
  got a natural altruism with them anyway way
• 29:22
  and they're probably it's easier for them to listen pick up
• 29:25
  stuff and to reflect i mean you can do the courses that really help i
• 29:28
  think in our community i'm talking now to the listener there's
• 29:31
  already that tendency to be a great communicator with
• 29:34
  some healthy people like sales so it's really good to hear you putting it that
• 29:38
  way no no that's just yeah you're like sorry yeah like bad coaching there because
• 29:43
  i was just you just triggered about 50 things as well and said that which was
• 29:47
  was interesting because especially from soft tissue side of things because it
• 29:50
  just made me think for I don't know if I'd thought it before,
• 29:53
  but just when you said it, I had a patient the other day, and she said it was
• 29:57
  one of my colleagues brought her to a problem patient.
• 30:01
  And it was 50 minutes of talking, basically, don't pick this lady.
• 30:04
  And she had a neck problem, but she was a hairdresser, and she went,
• 30:09
  I'm a hairdresser slash counselor.
• 30:12
  And she laughed kind of thing. She goes, but that's exactly it.
• 30:15
  So it's touch or whatever, they're chopping hair.
• 30:18
  But people talk all their the problems to a hairdresser.
• 30:22
  And they feel pretty good and
• 30:23
  they actually enjoy the hairdresser or the barbers or whatever you go to.
• 30:26
  And I think when it comes to soft tissue therapies, it's like,
• 30:28
  I think this is the other thing they have to embrace.
• 30:30
  If they were to add really good counseling or coaching skills,
• 30:35
  sometimes when people are relaxed, some people don't want to talk.
• 30:39
  But if they do want to talk, you've got an absolute insight into being able
• 30:43
  to kind of really get down to what's going on with them.
• 30:46
  From a you know so whatever about what you're doing to their to
• 30:49
  their bodies is you're actually putting them in a state where
• 30:52
  they because i love a massage and i'm like going i can really
• 30:56
  kind of come away completely clear-minded afterwards and if you add that kind
• 31:00
  of social communication skill because again you might just think you're good
• 31:03
  at it but are you are you waiting are you asking those right questions to these
• 31:07
  people you know whatever about those kind of mental health effects you get from soft tissue,
• 31:13
  you add that with the communication,
• 31:16
  you're going to, you're really going to ramp up your, people are going to be
• 31:19
  walking away going that, that person is amazing.
• 31:22
  And they won't know why, but they will tell all their friends.
• 31:24
  And that's kind of a part of, you know, they, you know, I, I'm hoping that I
• 31:29
  don't really have that model where people see me loads of times because of the timeframes quite long.
• 31:34
  I actually did see people very few times, but I'm relying on them to have such a good experience,
• 31:40
  hopefully that they will tell other people and because i
• 31:43
  can give them enough time i can build connection because
• 31:46
  of an hour and a half you're an hour and a half with somebody you start
• 31:50
  i want to know about the i'm like quite i'm you know being irish
• 31:53
  i don't know if it's irish thing but i'm quite nosy i'm quite interested
• 31:56
  in people so i'm i'm not from england so if you're from manchester or wherever
• 32:00
  i'll find out about that i'll find out about football teams kids names dogs
• 32:05
  names why they like this why they've come to cornwall you know life-changing
• 32:09
  things and you will get bucket loads of information and actually.
• 32:14
  You get that really good connection where people started like with
• 32:17
  red flag questions for example they'll actually start to
• 32:20
  tell you proper red flag questions you know you know ones around mental health
• 32:23
  potentially runs around maybe even spinal ones like toilet etc sex life etc
• 32:28
  you know which you meet somebody for the first time and in five minutes you're
• 32:32
  banging out questions around spinal red flags no one's going to be telling you
• 32:36
  between you and a curtain that they've got like like,
• 32:38
  you know, no erections, especially a 25-year-old lad.
• 32:42
  Do you know what I mean? We've kind of escalated to that quite quickly.
• 32:44
  But do you know what I mean?
• 32:45
  It's all part of that same thing is if you want to have good clinical reasoning
• 32:49
  or make sure you triage somebody well, sometimes it's actually,
• 32:52
  you're 15 minutes in before you're going to get any information from these people.
• 32:56
  They have no idea who you are.
• 32:58
  You know what I mean? And I think that's the thing. So as soon as you can build
• 33:02
  trust, and as Seth Godin was saying, like, this is where you can get great,
• 33:05
  you know, Looking outside of the world of health to get more ideas.
• 33:09
  His whole thing, you mentioned empathy, is empathy, trust are huge in marketing.
• 33:16
  And people see marketing as a bad word or it's like sales.
• 33:20
  It's totally not that. It's trying to provide a service or something to solve a problem for somebody.
• 33:27
  And we're hopefully solving people's health goals or athletic goals or whatever
• 33:31
  you want to call it. And if you can do that with trust and empathy,
• 33:35
  then he's worked with billion-dollar companies just off those kind of ideas.
• 33:42
  So why can't we do that with patience and take it from other parts of business, if you like?
• 33:48
  Yeah, great points. And again, I resonate a lot with our listeners.
• 33:51
  You mentioned, I was going to ask you about flags.
• 33:53
  We've talked a lot about how, again, soft tissue therapists,
• 33:57
  for example, a massage therapist, a lot of stuff is going to be out of their scope.
• 34:01
  Even a level four, level five, a lot of the stuff they're not going to be able to deal with.
• 34:05
  And that's where, as we'll talk about next week, you may well need to hand over
• 34:09
  to a physiotherapist who have been trained during their career to look after something.
• 34:13
  Or a specialist who are busy it might be a male health or
• 34:16
  female health or something but it's these people
• 34:19
  who need to be checked out by a specialist will probably come
• 34:22
  to us and by that i mean the massage therapist or and
• 34:26
  sports massage therapist first because they think that if they
• 34:29
  want that time out they want that hour lying down they don't probably
• 34:32
  want to go to the gp because then why are they going to get all these questions you know
• 34:35
  so if and also they're gonna even though
• 34:38
  they don't want to talk about let's say for example the erection problems even
• 34:41
  if they don't want to talk about that it's something they're carrying around
• 34:43
  with them causing all sorts of secondary problems and mental health problems by
• 34:47
  the time they're with you and they're relaxed and you're massaging them
• 34:50
  we know that massage can affect the nervous system and
• 34:53
  it's been shown in studies to reduce anxiety and depression and get
• 34:56
  that 30 lines they might say you know you had that
• 34:59
  box where you asked me to talk about infections and
• 35:02
  stuff i mean actually it has been an issue i haven't told anyone before and
• 35:06
  bam you could be saving that person five years misdiagnosis or no diagnosis
• 35:11
  so it's a beautiful thing that that massage therapists have always shouted on
• 35:15
  about this have got a massive responsibility as well to to signpost but only
• 35:20
  if you've got the right communication.
• 35:21
  Yeah. And I think, I think this good one just, I think it might be useful as
• 35:25
  well for your listeners is like interesting.
• 35:27
  We're talking about building a brand. Like this took, it took a long time.
• 35:31
  You know what I mean? Like I'm busy now, but this took a while to get across
• 35:35
  to people that the time I would, and then that would obviously come at a cost
• 35:38
  as well, but it built up through, you know, you got word of mouth stuff.
• 35:42
  And one of the best word of mouth ones was i kept getting this referral from
• 35:47
  what i just kept hearing his name his name is jay grady now he runs a podcast
• 35:51
  called the trail and urn which is a,
• 35:53
  ultramarathon and trail running uh podcast i don't know if you know him but they
• 35:56
  they do all the the ultramarathons down here on cornwall set but i
• 35:59
  kept hearing oh jay jay's referred me to you
• 36:02
  and i was like all right yeah and i thought he
• 36:05
  was a physio in my head i don't know why i just added in my
• 36:08
  i kept going right and patient after patient was jay
• 36:11
  jay sent me jay said you're the man jay and i was like and eventually
• 36:14
  i i think jay he actually texted me going oh i think i
• 36:17
  need to see you for me and i was like jay i've got to say thanks
• 36:20
  a million but i have no idea who you are and it turns out anyway that he came
• 36:25
  to me and we got on like a house on fire and he's this ex-ex-military uh sports
• 36:30
  massage therapist he's absolutely brilliant and he the runner community love
• 36:34
  him and he's really good but what when I started chatting to him he was basically on the same.
• 36:40
  Exactly the same kind of idea about communication and he one of his patients
• 36:44
  had come to me was a cardiac surgeon who'd come to me and I sorted his knee
• 36:47
  out and he said oh this guy's doing well you know and I really liked him and
• 36:51
  that's what Jay then did he just went oh we recommend him then Jay came to see
• 36:55
  me and then went through the same process and we had a great chat and from now on it's like.
• 37:00
  He still sends me so many people. But what's great about it is people really
• 37:05
  have a great respect for him because they're like going, they know where he
• 37:08
  knows where to put me so that I can get back to him.
• 37:11
  Because they all use him still monthly. You know, they're not going to use me monthly.
• 37:15
  They're going to go back to him or every couple of months or whatever,
• 37:18
  because they enjoy what he does and how they get him back running.
• 37:21
  But this relationship that was built out of not even me knowing it.
• 37:24
  But then once I did know about it, it was kind of opened up
• 37:27
  even another level of kind of trust between
• 37:30
  me and him there was no kind of like all right he's going to keep patients or
• 37:33
  they're not going to come back to me it was this is like we were both
• 37:36
  open-minded whereas i've come across in the past sometimes
• 37:39
  in not even into therapists just therapy as
• 37:42
  well like this is you're going to take my patients and i can't there's.
• 37:45
  Plenty of patients to go around and i tell you
• 37:48
  what the more friendly you get with your your local snc coaches
• 37:52
  or your personal trainers and it doesn't take much
• 37:55
  and i went on jay's podcast and i had a chat with him
• 37:57
  and tristan assistant who's an elite ultra marathon runner and
• 38:01
  then you get people listening and they're going oh wow that's exactly what
• 38:03
  i need i didn't even know that service was available and you just
• 38:06
  have to offer your time like tonight it's just these kind of
• 38:09
  conversations the next thing you know you put yourself out there and
• 38:12
  you're just and you're saying things and then next thing referrals are
• 38:15
  coming from random places you know so that
• 38:18
  was a really good story because again it was into therapy i didn't
• 38:21
  even know about it and then once you didn't know about it it was
• 38:23
  just a really nice relationship that's kind of developed ever
• 38:26
  since and you know i support his kind of charities and
• 38:29
  stuff so it's pretty good that's amazing and you
• 38:32
  say this guy jay he's a sports mass arts focus for
• 38:35
  traders yeah so how was he knowing when to refer on
• 38:38
  and he done extra courses because his own studies would have given him that
• 38:41
  information how was he yeah so so i think what what's happening
• 38:44
  is obviously he just knows when things what he's what his skills
• 38:47
  are are just not working or when people just have a problem
• 38:50
  that require an assessment and he just does it early he doesn't wait around
• 38:54
  you know he doesn't do 10 sessions and then like all right now it's i'm not
• 38:58
  fit you know he'll do what he can and if he's making improvements you know he'll
• 39:02
  keep going with it within his wheelhouse but what he's really good it's like
• 39:06
  look just get this checked out.
• 39:07
  And then and then i you know he just does it fast enough and and he but we if
• 39:12
  whatever about that he he trusts me and i trust him so again that's the other
• 39:16
  thing it's like the one thing i would always ask and it's what seth going i
• 39:19
  i did a course with seth golden this market i keep talking about him but I did
• 39:23
  like a three-month thing where you go online and you discuss it with other people
• 39:26
  trying to set up businesses.
• 39:27
  And one of the things was you have to...
• 39:30
  He got us to do one task which is like why do
• 39:33
  you buy stuff from a brand like why do you you
• 39:36
  know i i chose adidas and i was like why
• 39:39
  are why does adidas mean a lot to me and well what you
• 39:42
  know i'm like you know is it the you know it's just the same as everything else
• 39:45
  but and then i traced it right back to like i support man united and man united
• 39:50
  were adidas supported they had a lot of i remember the the trefoil originals
• 39:55
  badge was my first kit i was well into the beastie boys that That was my first albums when I was young.
• 40:00
  So it was like Beastie Boys, hip hop, rape culture.
• 40:03
  And then I was like, oh, Adidas, you know, and it was football casuals.
• 40:07
  You're just kind of going, I don't like Adidas. I just like the culture around
• 40:11
  it. And then Fred Perry was the same. You know, I was like, why am I into Fred Perry?
• 40:15
  Again, the same kind of idea of music culture and stuff like that.
• 40:19
  And I was like, why do you buy things?
• 40:21
  And if you can find out why you buy brands or what brands have spoken to you in your language.
• 40:26
  And once you can understand that then you have to
• 40:29
  speak in other people's language about health or massage or
• 40:32
  what you're going to do to solve their problem so i
• 40:35
  don't know where i've got on to that i can i do rant a little bit sorry about
• 40:38
  that but but it's that it's that idea of why do you trust people why do i trust
• 40:43
  jay uh we've built a relationship up now but he knows that i'm not going to
• 40:47
  be doing anything more than just going right well i'm going to recommend jay
• 40:50
  to people i'm going to recommend any soft tissue therapists who come to me and who i really trust.
• 40:56
  Trust that they've stuck their neck out and come to me and gone,
• 40:59
  look, I'm doing this and this is what I believe in and I like your stuff.
• 41:02
  I'm going to recommend you. You know what I mean?
• 41:05
  Don't be shy to go in. And if anyone's rude to you, then they're a dick and you don't move on.
• 41:09
  You know what I mean? There's always going to be dicks. But try it. Try it.
• 41:12
  And, you know, there's definitely good ones out there. And I think it's absolutely
• 41:15
  essential that you go out and stick your neck out and speak to people.
• 41:19
  Good that's really healthy information a lovely analogies weren't
• 41:22
  there why do you like your brand for years i thought
• 41:25
  it was adidas because they run dmc so because they were
• 41:28
  my adidas and people were correcting the whole time i wouldn't have it
• 41:31
  but yeah and this brings us on kind of to the second part
• 41:34
  we've talked about how communication is so important even pre-booking
• 41:38
  a lovely idea i'm the same i'll always have a conversation with
• 41:42
  the person just to check whether they're the right person with each
• 41:44
  with each other i don't like turning down business but if
• 41:47
  i think that they've got something which is not on my scope i don't waste their
• 41:50
  time come to me waste my time so that's i'm sure
• 41:53
  a lot of therapists don't do that because they're worried about losing it but that person
• 41:56
  would more like to come back to you who've gone you know what this is what you have to say
• 41:59
  i think you should go and check out with so-and-so i'll give them a
• 42:02
  call to tell you can i just mention can i
• 42:05
  just mention yeah on that point as well which i think is useful and is
• 42:08
  i get people who call me up and i could spend like sometimes
• 42:12
  if i've got the time i can spend 15 minutes now if
• 42:15
  you get a business coach or someone who am i you know somebody who's
• 42:18
  really sales oriented they'd yeah you should charge for this you
• 42:21
  should do that i'm not i'm that's not my it's
• 42:23
  a bit like the social media side of things i'm like i've done this where i've
• 42:27
  spent time with somebody because cornwall gets lots of tourists and i remember
• 42:30
  one again someone rang me up and they're going we're on holidays my next kilometer
• 42:33
  i'm really sorry i don't have any appointments but tell me what's going on and
• 42:38
  i'll try and help you out you know and then i'll I'd see if there's anyone else available,
• 42:41
  you know, locally. Because, you know, the holler is ruined. It'd be nothing worse.
• 42:44
  So I just would go through red flags and just make sure, like, do you need to go in A&E?
• 42:48
  Something like a ball lake in A&E for five hours to realize you didn't need
• 42:51
  to be there, you know. So I was like, right, let's go through that.
• 42:54
  Let's see, what have you done? Have you even taken any painkillers?
• 42:56
  You know, what's your medical history?
• 42:58
  Just kind of go through and say, look, you could do nothing more than maybe
• 43:01
  go and do this. And some advice like that.
• 43:04
  And it was weird. I've done that several, you know, several how many times.
• 43:08
  I've had people contact me because they obviously often come down here and they stay with family.
• 43:14
  And then the family get in touch with me going, oh, you were really,
• 43:16
  really nice to our auntie Mary or whatever.
• 43:19
  And that's the reason why we looked you up and we want to come.
• 43:22
  And there's absolutely no doubt that they will then book in an appointment.
• 43:27
  And I've had that several times.
• 43:29
  And the one time that was very one. So I'm always like, try and be sound to
• 43:33
  people as much as I possibly can.
• 43:35
  And I try and help them out. Or I'll say, look, I'll send you a physio,
• 43:38
  a neurophysio or a neurotherapist or a massage, whatever it is.
• 43:42
  I'll say, look, you go see them. but it was one day
• 43:44
  and I answered the phone when I shouldn't have answered the phone which is
• 43:47
  it was lashing rain I was just finishing
• 43:50
  work I can't remember it was so I was stressed about something
• 43:53
  something really stressed in my mind and I think it's the same that happens
• 43:56
  when you see patients what your mindset is like is going to affect your communication
• 44:00
  anyway I answered this phone to this guy I was more short than normal I remember
• 44:07
  it massively because he was He was kind of looking and he was looking for a
• 44:11
  massage and I don't do massage.
• 44:12
  So I kind of went, I just kind of went, oh, look, I haven't got an appointment
• 44:16
  for about three weeks and I don't do massage anyway.
• 44:20
  Now, it wasn't that bad, but it was a bit wanky. It wasn't how I normally speak to people like that.
• 44:27
  And I, cause I was just like, and it was, I remember closing the door to cars,
• 44:30
  you know what I mean? I, and then I kind of went, why did I answer the phone?
• 44:34
  Anyway, I'm driving along 10 minutes later, boom, Google review comes up one star.
• 44:41
  And I don't, I didn't have a one star advice there. I was like,
• 44:44
  and it was like, you know, and, and what he wrote, what he wrote down,
• 44:48
  like it wasn't, it wasn't, it was an emotional, you know, you know,
• 44:53
  what he wrote down was, it was unfair.
• 44:56
  But at the same time i was like yeah but i i didn't do i i was well below standard
• 45:01
  so because he drowned me i i stopped i pulled over and i just went i just i i am i tried to ring him,
• 45:09
  and then i i sent him a text and i said hands up
• 45:12
  i was rude i just did a whole just went
• 45:15
  rock i'm really sorry this is this and i get
• 45:17
  i really i was genuine i did i kind of went this is all against
• 45:20
  i you know i said to people oh yeah be really sound and all this and
• 45:23
  i was i was i was a bit of a dick there and he took it
• 45:26
  down and he was really sound and he went no worries i got
• 45:29
  it thanks for thanks for sending me the text and and stuff and i
• 45:31
  went oh yeah really sorry and he didn't understand
• 45:34
  that i didn't do hands-on therapy and his his thing
• 45:37
  was physios do that and and that's why he got a bit confused but
• 45:40
  it was i tell you what man i would never do that again it just
• 45:43
  made me feel i was like don't answer the phone when you're not ready check how
• 45:47
  you are before you're about to make a call just make sure you've got
• 45:49
  the patience for that otherwise your communication will be affected
• 45:52
  no matter what what you think you know and
• 45:55
  it's the same when you're about to see patients as well like yeah i
• 45:59
  have to give myself sometimes a bit of a you know beforehand you're
• 46:02
  like right give a minute or what get focused on them i've just heard some bad
• 46:06
  news you know plumbing job at home or something like that you know and you're
• 46:11
  like oh shit i've got to deal with that later how am i going to get out of that
• 46:14
  zone right now because i can't do anything about that and i need to help this
• 46:18
  person because if i don't it's friday night it's five o'clock,
• 46:21
  they could be that one star review again.
• 46:24
  So I've got to get into the mindset that I have to give everything to them at
• 46:28
  that point. And that takes practice, I think.
• 46:30
  Great. Really powerful story. Yeah, and the negative side of poor communication
• 46:34
  as well. That's a good question.
• 46:36
  No, really good. Yeah, think before you pick up that phone or see the next patient. We've all done it.
• 46:40
  You know, you then project your problem onto that next patient.
• 46:43
  They're just coming along for some help. And you're just like,
• 46:45
  oh, what? Here again, are you?
• 46:47
  I'm sorry last week. What am I talking about?
• 46:50
  Yeah, no, great. Really good stuff. that kind of
• 46:53
  takes us into we've already talked about um talking without the professionals
• 46:56
  sometimes yet just referring on as a great way of
• 46:59
  networking not being afraid that
• 47:03
  these other professionals are going to steal all your business which is an old
• 47:06
  model of you know which we need to get rid of because like you say becoming
• 47:11
  that third best who people think if they don't feel they're the right person
• 47:16
  they'll say it's the right person that's brilliant and there's still Still not
• 47:18
  many of those therapists around. That was a really good business model.
• 47:21
  And once everybody does that, we'll find something else. But for the moment,
• 47:25
  that's a really great piece of advice.
• 47:27
  I think it comes out of anxiety, doesn't it? Because every therapist,
• 47:30
  when they start off, they think, you know, you're business hungry,
• 47:32
  aren't you? You've got no patience.
• 47:34
  You're scared. You know, you've got rental, and you've got to do all that.
• 47:38
  And I remember when I started off, I just went, right, how am I going to build?
• 47:42
  That was all I kept doing was I've got to build relationships.
• 47:44
  I've got to go and do talks. I went into running clubs. and everyone says that
• 47:48
  but you know what I mean but I had to make the talks good though.
• 47:52
  You can't just go in and do a crap presentation. And I don't think I said it
• 47:55
  was brilliant, but I really spent time with it.
• 47:58
  You know, it was, and I tried to look at the audience and I was trying to think,
• 48:02
  how am I going to make this 20 minutes memorable for them and make sure that I understand them.
• 48:07
  That was what I tried to do. And I hope that's what I always do with talks is
• 48:11
  that people are like, he gets it, he gets me.
• 48:14
  And therefore I trust him for some reason, like you trust Daddy Das or whatever it is.
• 48:18
  You know, you buy that brand because you trust it for some reason,
• 48:21
  and trust is a kind of funny word when it comes to clothes but that's what you're buying
• 48:24
  you're you're you're doing that so so i
• 48:27
  think it's uh yeah really important if you're there just you've got
• 48:30
  a you think well i've got this two hours where i've no
• 48:33
  patience don't go and try and panic on that
• 48:36
  stick to your you know set out what you want to be as
• 48:39
  a therapist set out the kind of people you want to treat and
• 48:43
  then talk in their language so like if you want to see females
• 48:46
  versus males or or mixed you still
• 48:49
  got to speak in different languages if you're going to see an age age
• 48:51
  group above 40 then you're going to speak a different way if
• 48:54
  you're going to in 20s you're going to you're going to dress a different
• 48:57
  way you know all that everything is is targeted towards
• 49:00
  you know connecting with that person like i have a garmin
• 49:03
  watch now i'm not a cv person i'm
• 49:06
  more into weights and football and things but i have a garmin
• 49:08
  watch because i wanted a really nice watch i like the look of it but i
• 49:12
  now learned all the like i learned all what it does which is
• 49:14
  really useful when you're speaking the language of a runner who fucking knows everything about
• 49:18
  the watch and they're like oh here look at my you know
• 49:20
  like they bring up the the excel spreadsheet and you're like well i need to
• 49:25
  know about this so i have to study that but like i don't use half the stuff
• 49:28
  on it but i do know that people when they come in the clinic and they go we've
• 49:32
  got the same watch there's a there's a thing called the similarity principle
• 49:36
  and the more you're similar to somebody the more connection you're going to have.
• 49:40
  It's usually why your friends are similar to you. And because,
• 49:44
  you know, you hardly, like you don't, most of your mates are not the complete opposite of you.
• 49:48
  They don't, you don't like, you know, classical and they like heavy metal.
• 49:50
  You know, it's, there's usually, you know, there's something there that you connect about.
• 49:55
  And that's the thing is how do you build that connection? And again,
• 49:58
  the simplest thing is a watch. They're like, all right, that guy gets me.
• 50:02
  He speaks my language. That's the brand. He uses that brand.
• 50:05
  He understands even the socks people wear nowadays.
• 50:07
  You can you know it's every little bit is you
• 50:10
  fine-tune it and then suddenly people are they
• 50:14
  start thinking why why am i telling this person more
• 50:17
  information because they trust you so yeah anyway really interesting i guess
• 50:23
  once upon a time this is this and this is a whole other topic but it's in my
• 50:26
  mind because we're talking a lot about contextual effects which once upon a
• 50:30
  time we would have called perceives but we're realizing that's not really perceived
• 50:33
  but because Because a placebo, by definition, is something that has no effect.
• 50:36
  What we're talking about is how by wearing that watch, when you know the virus
• 50:40
  is coming in, you want to appreciate that watch.
• 50:42
  You're getting that therapy to your eyes, which is going to help you diagnose
• 50:45
  them better, which is going to help you get them to recover.
• 50:47
  So it's not a placebo at all.
• 50:48
  It's really important, isn't it, to post this on the walls, the music,
• 50:51
  you've got to play anything.
• 50:53
  Yeah, like John Kiley is a sport. He runs the PhD in sports and exercise kind of area.
• 50:59
  He's an ex-athlete, ex-league coach, very good publisher.
• 51:04
  In paper he's on loads of podcasts type john kyle he's
• 51:07
  up and you said it was university of central lancashire irish
• 51:10
  as well so obviously very good i love his stuff i
• 51:13
  love when he talks as well he's so hot he's quite he's always
• 51:16
  trying to solve problems you can tell him he's just always trying to you know
• 51:19
  not trying to spout his knowledge he's just going you know and there's another
• 51:22
  thing and i need to it's always questioning and stuff and he did great papers
• 51:25
  around the old um periodization challenged all that dog man and and and he a
• 51:31
  lot of his stuff come out it's just basically with With athletes,
• 51:34
  it's no different than patients.
• 51:35
  The most important thing is that relationship you build with them and trust and connection.
• 51:41
  Far more important, they'll tell you how they slept. They'll tell you if they're
• 51:44
  ready for a hard training session or not.
• 51:45
  But they will not tell you that if they don't trust you. So it's that connection.
• 51:50
  And if you look at things like Alex Ferguson's book on leadership,
• 51:53
  he talks again about it. He's renowned for that.
• 51:56
  Nothing to do with his tactical stuff. It's all got to do with he knows a group
• 52:00
  of people mentally where they're at.
• 52:02
  They trust him to do a certain job. And that's what it's all about.
• 52:05
  So it's over and over again, this kind of idea that they're soft skills.
• 52:10
  Communication is a beast that's constantly changing all the time.
• 52:14
  And you can constantly improve it all the time. It's the only skill in therapy.
• 52:19
  Like if you go down to the shop, you could be just sounder to that person at
• 52:22
  the shop counter and be sound and be nice and look at them in the eyes and maybe be nice.
• 52:26
  You could change that and to make their day and make your own
• 52:29
  day just like that there's nothing else you can do that's
• 52:32
  like that you're always trying to to hone those
• 52:35
  skills and just think well how can i make even when
• 52:38
  you're chatting to your friends or chatting about anything it's kind of like
• 52:41
  how do how would i ask that again or how am i more entertained why why is why
• 52:44
  is that person then why am i actually listening to them so you can always change
• 52:49
  it and always learn so you don't have to always go on courses you can just become
• 52:52
  a bit more conscious so it's really cool but it's It's not soft and it's really,
• 52:57
  really, really, really tricky, I would say.
• 52:59
  And I think getting good frameworks or foundations in some courses is definitely
• 53:03
  worth doing. I would say it's more important than anything else.
• 53:07
  Yes, definitely. Well, you've fought a good argument and that leads nicely onto
• 53:13
  my next question is courses. You obviously...
• 53:16
  Use a lot of this in your courses and you've got an unravelling strength
• 53:19
  and conditioning therapist coming up soon i think in
• 53:22
  february is it end of february yeah yeah manchester yeah that's
• 53:25
  yeah so i n core or hdpn and n core are usually the providers of the course
• 53:30
  and then i do some private ones as well which is on you know my social media
• 53:34
  which is i'd say minimal but yeah i do yeah doing around the country all around
• 53:39
  so manchester's next one in february fantastic fantastic and because of the
• 53:43
  title unraveling strength and conditioning for therapists,
• 53:46
  that's quite a like an open title people aren't
• 53:48
  going to straight away think oh yeah this is the guy who's an expert on communication is
• 53:52
  that on purpose yeah yeah it's a good question
• 53:55
  and i started the course with like so unraveling is
• 53:58
  there you know what i mean i highlight that in
• 54:01
  because people see snc but it's unraveling snc
• 54:04
  because i'm not training you to be an snc coach
• 54:07
  coach you're you're you're a lot of therapists a lot of them aren't
• 54:10
  physios rehab therapists off tissue gps have
• 54:13
  been on there students have been on there so the
• 54:17
  idea is to open up dating what's the most important word in therapy is my question
• 54:21
  i ask at the very beginning i get people to say what just one word what would
• 54:25
  you say is the most important one in all types of in all kinds of therapy and
• 54:30
  people throw loads of stuff and nothing's ever you know physical or exercise
• 54:34
  exercise or anything like that.
• 54:35
  It's all emotional words usually, or, you know, like relationship.
• 54:39
  You know, listening, you know, that kind of stuff, you know?
• 54:43
  And so it's, so they come up with these words, but really what links them all is communication.
• 54:48
  And so when it comes to, when I did strength and conditioning courses and what
• 54:53
  actually they call themselves the strength and conditioning coaches.
• 54:56
  So coaching is in their title as well. And when I did that actually quite a
• 54:59
  lot of the courses, you know, whatever about exercises,
• 55:02
  a lot of it was like, how do you coach the cue how do you cue this person to
• 55:06
  be able to perform a movement so the language of coaching was really important
• 55:09
  it's a really good book by nickel nick winkleman on that but.
• 55:13
  There's there's even that so it's like it was always down to the
• 55:16
  words and the communication rather than the exercises themselves
• 55:19
  so what i try and do in the course is yes use
• 55:22
  all this communication but then when it comes to exercise prescription
• 55:25
  it also helps you with deciding whether someone's going
• 55:28
  to do one exercise 10 exercises three how
• 55:32
  often they're going to do it because you're going to have to break down their
• 55:34
  week and you're going to have to also gain their
• 55:37
  trust that they're going to commit to what you've asked them to do
• 55:40
  because no one's going to commit to some of the stuff that that we
• 55:43
  asked them to do especially if they if they don't do exercise already
• 55:46
  it the chances of them doing exercise
• 55:49
  is pretty much zero and there's some really interesting research on adherence
• 55:53
  if you have to change behavior or change any existing habits and there's one
• 55:59
  other account member off the top it's on a slide this really kind of basically
• 56:02
  the essence of therapy you have a 70 reduction in adherence if you if you have
• 56:07
  to do all those those things,
• 56:08
  which is, so we're up against it if you prescribe exercise to people.
• 56:12
  So I'm trying to break down patients into kind of, how do you know what type
• 56:17
  of patient you have in front of you?
• 56:18
  And therefore you'll be able to say, well, actually you're only going to give
• 56:21
  them advice and education today, or you're only going to give them one exercise
• 56:24
  and that exercise is this.
• 56:27
  And then when you do do strength exercises, are you measuring so that you can
• 56:31
  give people feedback for that? Is that useful?
• 56:34
  So how useful is measurement? And for the right patients, it's amazing and then
• 56:39
  prescribing strength appropriately because a lot of people prescribe strength
• 56:42
  and it's really not what the researchers show so it's it's not not the researchers
• 56:47
  show but it's not the effective way of gaining strength so,
• 56:51
  It's kind of like, you're right, it's a communication coaching course,
• 56:55
  but it's for in order to improve exercise commitment, how you get people to
• 56:59
  actually commit to the things you've asked them to do with.
• 57:02
  A lot of people come off the course and they're going to go,
• 57:04
  that course is more for me as a therapist than patients.
• 57:08
  Because I always, and I did a psychology course once, Serena Simmons,
• 57:13
  she does a lot of stuff with Claire Mincho.
• 57:15
  Show serena was saying i remember her starting the course we're going
• 57:18
  like you know in order to you know work on other people you need to you need
• 57:22
  to know yourself pretty well you know and if you can practice those things then
• 57:25
  you can you can help other people and i think that's that's what i'm trying
• 57:28
  to do on the course is like open yourself up your own mindset to use a therapist
• 57:32
  and then then you'll be able to suddenly see the patients in front of you if you like.
• 57:37
  Great advice so let's bring
• 57:39
  up your website for people who are watching live on youtube and i'll bring
• 57:42
  it up on the screen so we've got all details of course details on there or would
• 57:48
  best to go to socials instagram at pro care sport okay right so we'll make sure
• 57:53
  that all of these details and links are in the show notes as well but um there's
• 57:59
  a load of information and details,
• 58:02
  about uh pro care on pro care sports medicine dot
• 58:05
  co.uk isn't it dot com yeah
• 58:08
  you can also email me i'm happy
• 58:11
  to if people are struggling to find things or just want questions
• 58:14
  um or anything about how i practice or whatever just yeah
• 58:17
  the email is on there it's info at pro care sports medicine.com so
• 58:20
  it's pretty straightforward it's all on there but yeah happy
• 58:23
  to take questions or whatever from from them on
• 58:26
  email if they want to that's very kind and then
• 58:29
  i've also got links there to facebook if that's the place you hang out i'm
• 58:32
  still on instagram as well it's some other information there and
• 58:35
  twitter is you personally isn't it twitter is at macaulay andrew
• 58:38
  yeah that's right so lots of ways to contact you and like i say you've got a
• 58:43
  course coming up i think i've got a splash screen on there it's gonna be very
• 58:46
  big but that was uh yeah twitter feed that was that's the 24th and 23rd 24th
• 58:54
  of february it's a saturday sunday in a really nice venue in that and.
• 58:58
  Sports performance place in manchester so it'll be really good got
• 59:01
  nice equipment and stuff are there still places on there in case
• 59:03
  someone listens to podcast they should they should be yeah it
• 59:06
  should be fantastic okay wonderful great right
• 59:10
  well thank you so much andrew the listeners have
• 59:13
  voted and that's a great podcast tonight guys thank you andrew this
• 59:16
  is vernon smith thank you very much vernon for attending once again and
• 59:19
  it's a massive it's an interesting topic thank you and yeah
• 59:23
  thank you as always people have joined us live it makes all
• 59:26
  the difference um usually a lot more so we really appreciate you
• 59:29
  guys because i just prefer being live it's it's instantaneous it's i like the
• 59:33
  conversation and it's nice putting our speakers on the spot but they're such
• 59:37
  crows they can handle anything and you come up with wonderful kind of analogies
• 59:40
  like i prefer to drink cat sick and things like this every time i speak to any
• 59:43
  guest there's some wonderful new ways of looking at life that way it's going to be a t-shirt.
• 59:50
  Yeah i don't need
• 59:53
  another one that's fine that'll be in the
• 59:56
  show notes as well in case you get around yeah so brilliant
• 59:59
  thank you andrew really appreciate your time and like
• 1:00:02
  i say people it does kind of tie in when you talk about communication
• 1:00:05
  with other therapists it does tie in with the.
• 1:00:08
  Episode which will be episode 183 of
• 1:00:11
  this podcast but it will be recorded as
• 1:00:14
  always live on tuesday the 30th of january physiotherapy
• 1:00:18
  versus sports therapy which is a bit of a clickbait title
• 1:00:21
  i'm not going to lie but hey that's what you're going to be for marketing and andrew cordy
• 1:00:24
  says there's nothing wrong with marketing so that's great
• 1:00:27
  it's going to be a lovely group of physio sports therapists who
• 1:00:30
  will be discussing this sometimes to monitor relationship like i
• 1:00:33
  say between physios and sts but also building
• 1:00:37
  on what we've talked about today how at the end of the day if it's good communication you'll realize
• 1:00:40
  there's more similarities and the differences in it in relation to the patient you
• 1:00:43
  want to help and if the patient's health then that's going to help the business
• 1:00:46
  it's as simple as that really so we need to communicate with each
• 1:00:48
  other and as a special jim oliver
• 1:00:51
  who's the founder of the msk hub supported by
• 1:00:54
  physio mats and mehab is allowing us to stream it live there so there
• 1:00:57
  should be some great live questions as well from all different types
• 1:01:00
  of therapies so if you do want to join us i can be a goodie just go
• 1:01:03
  along to either youtube sports therapy association
• 1:01:06
  or you can go along to facebook good pay sports derby association
• 1:01:09
  or you can join us live from the
• 1:01:12
  msk hub supported by 15 miles and may
• 1:01:15
  have facebook group but for tonight thank you
• 1:01:18
  again andrew mccauley really appreciate it i'll put you i'll put you on the
• 1:01:22
  spot now and say would you come back sometimes i think there's so much more
• 1:01:24
  you can just oh god yeah i'll talk for days man that's amazing yeah lovely to
• 1:01:30
  have you back at some point be really cool thanks thank you right thanks everybody
• 1:01:35
  and like i say If you listen to the podcast, do please leave us a little review.
• 1:01:38
  And a rating just helps the word of great guests like Andrew get out there more.
• 1:01:41
  If you joined us live, thank you once again. And hopefully we'll see some of
• 1:01:45
  you at 8 o'clock next Tuesday. Take care.
• 1:01:50
  Music.