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Transcript

Endgame: The Technological Fight against Human Trafficking · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey friends, today we are doing something a little different, so we are combining and collaborating both my podcast, the Surviving Abuse Podcast, and the TrueCom Journals, with Ashley Lawson.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: We have a topic that we've been wanting to discuss and we found an expert and we decided to cover it one time for both shows.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: So I hope you all enjoy, hi, ashley.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Hello, so I have a funny joke for you today, or at least I think it's funny, and I've been sitting on this one because I wanted to make sure I used it the perfect time and there's a lot of pressure on, because we have a special guest with us today too, who will be introducing, but he also is a comedian.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: So if I fell on this joke, I'm gonna be real embarrassed and just log off and let you finish it, okay, okay, okay.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So why do elephants hide in cherry trees?
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: No, I messed it up already.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Why do elephants paint their toenails red?
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know, so they can hide in cherry trees.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Have you ever seen an elephant in cherry tree?
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: It works, then doesn't it.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I'm not the comedian of the show, chris.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: You know, I got a joke for you.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: So I like doing facts in my comedy and like interesting tidbits.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: You know, I actually have them doing like a queer show, which I'm very excited about, and so I wrote this one in honor of that and the month that we're in.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: So lions have more same sex relationships than any other, and that's actually why we call it gay pride.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: Wow, that's funny, that's funny.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: See, I knew when I was trying to think of a joke today, I was like I'm gonna mess it up, it won't be funny.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: So we've been talking with Chris, but we actually haven't introduced him yet.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: So this show is going to be a little different.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: We've got Chris on and we'll let him tell more about his history in a minute, but actually I have been wanting to touch on a subject that could be with both podcasts my Surviving Abuse podcast and with our True Crime journals and I got an email from Chris that said, hey, you're busy and you might not respond to this, but and I was like no, I'm dropping everything and responding to this, and I love the connection that we made.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about some pretty heavy stuff today, so definitely trigger warning with that.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: This definitely will fall into both podcast genres and categories.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: It is on sex and human trafficking.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Chris, why don't you give us a little introduction about yourself?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Sure well.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: So my name is Christopher Armated.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I ran for the US House of Representatives brand new congress candidate and endorsed by several members of the US House.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I have a master's of science in homeland security and I published research on using emerging technology to combat human trafficking.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I served in the United States Air Force for almost 10 years, part of operation enduring freedom and operation Iraqi freedom.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I also had the opportunity to do security for President Obama briefly, which was a really incredible experience, and then I got out of the military, spent a few years focusing on stand-up comedy, got involved in politics first through helping with policy and then through being a candidate, and then decided to finally finish writing the book that I'd started after I completed my initial research paper.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: That book is for sex trafficking, what it is and how you can end it Wow so.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Ashley, I'm impressed.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: When I called you and told you about Chris, I was so mind-blown because you've done so many great things and continuing to do so, and I really admire that.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Ashley, I do want to ask you before we get to start, before we get really into this have you done a lot of research on sex trafficking?
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Like, where do you stand?
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you stand against it, but what, what?
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: What has been your journey with it?
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: I know about it and especially being here in Texas, it's kind of where I am in, dallas is kind of a hub for it.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: We are constantly getting amber alerts about children getting napped and things like that, and sometimes it's they're getting kidnapped by their parent, but more often than not it's that's not the case.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: But human trafficking is something that's always been intriguing to me because I just don't understand how anybody can take one human and want to sell them for any purpose.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Well, first, money to be made.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: You know, that's really the core of whether it's the drug trade or really any illicit trade that happens out there.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: We're talking about multi, multi, multi billion dollar vice industries and so, you know, if there are people willing to be customers, then there will be people who will find a way to make that money.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: And so, and while doing the research paper, was with a retired central intelligence agency anti-trafficking expert.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Out of the 28 years he was in the CIA, he actually spent 24 of them working on anti-trafficking, in particular related to the cartels, and he said that this issue is, you know it's, it's going to keep being a problem unless we make some pretty clear but major changes, and big part of that's funding and a few other things that I cover in the book and can cover more while we talk.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: But you know, what brought me to this issue was just I think that part of our personal journey is towards happiness and contentment and joy and long-term peace internally is part of that journey is finding something you can do to contribute to the world around you.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I went into, I got the Homeland Security degree not for the best reasons when I was a young airman in the Air Force.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I went to the highest ranking person on our unit and I said what's your degree in?
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: He said I'm finishing a master's of science and online security and I said I guess that's what I'm going to do, and I was ever as interested in terrorism and those sorts of things.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: But disaster preparedness, emergency response and human trafficking were three things that really interested me, because there is no political.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: There's.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: There was sure they can be politicized from Hurricane Katrina, but these are undeniable truths of suffering and so I said I'm gonna keep getting this degree.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like I have a knack for it and I chose to focus on one of those things that could be agreed to be an evil and try to do something about it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: The book is divided into three sections, so I think we could probably go into it similar to how I structured the book.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: The book is built to be the individual level first, what we can do to keep ourselves and our loved ones and our community safe as individuals.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: And then the second part of the book is policy and some things you can do at a city level or legislatively, legally, that can be done.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: And then the third level is big picture, civil action how you can make a difference societally and internationally through your dollar and your activism.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Have you guys had any guests or experiences or stories you've heard about human trafficking?
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: We have kind of stood out.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I have a few I can share, but I'm just curious.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: No, we haven't.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Again, it's something that I've really wanted to cover and I've been asked to cover on surviving abuse, but I haven't had any of those experts or anybody reach out to me that has been a victim of or a part of in any kind of way.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: So this is all brand new territory for both shows.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's important.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Perspective can be tough in these sorts of things because they can be heinous, horrific situations.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Even I just moved to San Francisco from Spokane, washington and Red Acustion Spokane is in Cordellane, just about a half hour away in Cordellane, idaho, and I spoke to someone there who she had been abducted as a 15 year old and they found her three years later dropped off in a park in Arizona and been a victim for those three years.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: And while victims are primarily women and children of color, it's a broad spectrum of people who are at risk.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: But it's important that we don't live our lives in a way where every person that we see we're always on guard.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: That's post-traumatic stress, that's what you know a fellow service members who come back, law enforcement officers a lot of others or people who've been incarcerated they're always on that high alert, thinking this person might harm me, that person might harm me, and I don't want people to take that away from my book or to take that away from the horrific stories that are out there of people being, you know, put in these horrible situations.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Take some steps to protect yourself.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Sure, like you know, you can carry around mace and you can carry around, or pepper spray.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: We can carry around, you know, personal defense items If that's your thing.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: That makes you feel more comfortable.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: If you see somebody and it looks like they're being taken against their will or like they're somewhere they don't want to be.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: There are great organizations like the Polaris Project that you can reach out to that offer victim advocate and victim support and local organization that you can reach out to and you should do that.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: But the main thing that you can do to protect yourself from becoming a victim or your loved ones from becoming a victim, whether it's through cyber sources you know, online or through grooming in relationship we dealt with poverty and abuse who things.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: It would be an incredible impact actually on the amount of forced sex trafficking that happens.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Build strong bonds.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I'd say build strong family bonds, but sometimes that's not always completely in our hands.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: The more people you have around you who will be honest with you and care for you and say you're in a bad situation or notice if you go missing, those are the structures the web that are gonna protect you far more than anything you can do as an individual, and it takes time, but that really is.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Build that support structure in your life and that will provide you more protection from victimization.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Any criminal cause, military law enforcement too, and, I'll tell you, all criminal.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: It can happen even if you have a perfect life, but the best protection you can have is build a circle around you people who are gonna notice if you're in a bad situation and it won't hurt you.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah did I understand you correctly when you said that it's mostly people of color?
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the majority of victims are non-white women, and those are the ones that are the most or the least likely to get investigated by law enforcement agencies.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: If you're an upper middle class white woman who went to an Ivy League, so all that you know, your case is gonna be taken more seriously.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Especially Native American women have been very disproportionately victimized in this way compared to their population size, and it's a huge problem then with the cartels.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: There's people who they just wanna come over here, or immigration it's ties into our immigration.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: It's a very intersectional issue and so, yeah, it's mostly non-white women and non-white children, but also we shouldn't be complacent, and everybody has their story, of course.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: I have a question about.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: You said, one of the victims that you spoke to when you were still living in Washington said that the person she knew had been abducted at 15 and then released a few years later.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: Is that how it typically happens?
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Do they just keep them for a certain amount of time or do they kill them, or does it kind of vary case to case or kind of what's the most popular end result for something like that?
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Let's come an entry into.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Forced trafficking, outside of shipping people across borders in immigration-related situations is the second.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Most common is homelessness in the United States.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Female and childhood poverty.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Especially women and children, end up on the streets.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Sometimes in a lot of places I spoke to even police officers who were saying in their human trafficking sections they have hours to get those people help from aid organizations before they might be in a dentured servitude and sold as a commodity because their entrance on the street.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: So it can be a few years, there can be periods.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: This is something that a lot of these victims go through, where they get forced to be put on drugs and they're not wanting, not feeling like you have another option anymore, like you can't leave.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden, the door starts getting left open and then the victims start to feel like this is them thinking I choose to stay here now, I'm bad and it's a really terrible situation.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: So that can last for years and years, and then some people get help and very few people.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I'd say never get seen again, though, because once your utility is done, maybe you're not making as much money, that sort of thing.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: They get put out on the street and a lot of those people will end up just continuing to do the same work because there's a blurring of the line.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes in cults everyone starts out as a victim, except for the founder, and then they eventually can become the predator themselves, like the homelessness and immigration.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Those are really big issues where you're not gonna solve it by just helping the victims or finding the people who are already in those situations.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Is there a certain age group that is targeted or is it all age ranges, and are they put into categories based on age and fetish?
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: 18 to 24.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: If you're an 18 to 24 year old woman, especially woman of color, you're at the highest risk.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And if you really want to figure out who's at the most at risk, there are those cases where someone gets taken because children get abducted for this stuff.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Those are much more streamlined.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: That's the top of the pyramid.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Those are a lot of times much more streamlined and that's you know.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: They might even get shipped out of the country at that point.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: The chances of that happening to most people are very low.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say as low as getting struck by lightning.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: But I also wouldn't say walk out into the middle of a field at night and during a rainstorm or during a thunderstorm, because there are things you can do to make yourself or your loved ones more likely to become victims of that.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: But for that pyramid of suffering, the people who are at the most commonly attacked and taken range are the people who suffer the most from poverty and desperation.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: And so you know.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: You can say that again, it's just people in this country are the most socioeconomically impacted.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Those are the ones who are the most likely to be abused into this or forced against their will in any other way, and coercion is much more common than putting a gun to somebody's head.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So growing up I would always hear and even still today I would always hear that if you were in trouble or I guess mostly I would hear like, if you were in trouble, yell fire instead of for help.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Is that still relevant, or are there other ways, because people are so scared to get involved in things you know?
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Is that still what is suggested for people to do when they're in that situation, or is anything evolved from that?
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: It's your best bet.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, my suggestion still goes to self-defense.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: It's unfortunate that we live, but you know what I'm not even going to say it's unfortunate that we live in a world where you should be encouraged to take up self-defense by whatever that means to you.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Because the fact is, I don't know if there's ever been a time in the history of Earth where protecting yourself, the individual, wasn't necessary and your loved ones wasn't necessary.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: It's a fact of being alive is that our existence can be threatened.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So yelling fire, those sorts of things.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Get attention if you can, but know that, depending on where you live, if you're in rural America, sure, that's going to make a bigger difference if people are around, but in a major city, new York City, it's tougher to say are you going to have a mob of people come over and help you or is everybody going to ignore you?
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Some psychologists much more effectively what would protect you in that situation?
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: But be ready to protect yourself.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm a really big supporter of having pepper spray and those sorts of things and especially a little flashlight is.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: As former law enforcement, I'll recommend that as pepper spray and a little flashlight.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: They make these tiny LED flashlights that are very bright and if it's dark and you point that in someone's eyes, it can buy you time and also practice taking your pepper spray out and making sure you know how to don't spray it, but make sure you know how to use that.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Do that a few times and don't do it from a place of fear.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Do it from a place of.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I'm going to visualize potentially negative situations and I'm going to prepare myself emotionally and physiologically to use what I need to protect myself and what happens if it gets knocked out of my hand.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: And if you run through these scenarios casually and yelling for help, of course, too, that will make all of the difference.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Without a doubt, nobody can ever 100% protect themselves, but you can take yourself seriously as someone who trains and prepares and is emotionally aware, and then that carries over too.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: It's not just about somebody trying to take you.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: It could be an abusive partner or it could be a whole host of other someone trying to rob you.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: That's something that law enforcement gets taught, and I'm definitely I understand there are issues with law enforcement and might be.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: My next book actually is about law enforcement reform, but something that they do right is the idea that you should casually just run through the situations, and this goes back to stoic practices, stoic meditations on thinking about what can go wrong right now.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: This person makes me nervous and the reaction I'm going to have because they seem suspicious to me.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: There was a, even recently, a house-less person on the street who seemed to have kind of honed in on me while I was having lunch with my friends.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: But what you can do is you can relax your body, take a deep breath and imagine okay, what if they run at me?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe I should stand up and hold my hands like this and you run through that and you relax yourself and you think about that and you will be able to do so much more to protect your loved ones and those around you.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to, especially after my experience.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to learn how to be more aware of my surroundings and to even trust my gut instinct on people.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I would always feel so guilty if I got a bad feeling about somebody.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I would feel guilty and I'm having to retrain myself and that if I'm feeling a vibe from someone that's just not meshing or working with me, then it's okay to excuse myself and to just be more aware of what's around you.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: It's okay to listen to yourself and to not doubt those internal alarms, and so many had internal warnings beforehand.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Some underhanded people know how to capitalize on our self-doubt, with our instincts, and so the more that you can do to make this a part of how you live your life and the difference between people who get like so neat Okay, I think the best way to say this A Navy SEAL is less likely to get PTSD than a cook in the military or another you know behind more, behind the scenes, support role.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And that's not because their DNA is different, it's because if you are in a situation where you're getting surprised by the danger, by the threat, then emotionally it is far, far, far more traumatic.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: When an AV SEAL goes on a raid, which is a much more intense experience.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: In many ways it's on a calendar.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Their watch tells them when they're going to face that trauma, and so they have much more instances of PTSD because of that.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: And so when you live your life in a way where you listen to your internal signals, you can choose to be prepared emotionally as much as possible.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: And you know, I remember in the early days of the pandemic people saying you know, masks only protect you.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: 25% or 50% or 75%.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take whatever percentage I can take in any battle I enter or may enter, and it doesn't have to degrade my quality of life.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I had a great.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I told you about the gentleman who kind of honed in on me the other day.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: It didn't degrade the quality of my meal with my friends for me to just stand up and while we talked, just know like, okay, this is what I'm going to do to protect myself.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Could you have a weapon?
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: What would I do if he had a weapon?
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: What would be the smartest thing to do?
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: And that that's going to make a big difference in preventing possibly preventing future trauma.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: So I know Ashley had mentioned Dallas, texas, being a hub.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: So are there, I'm assuming there's several locations in America that are predominant or hubs of and for Like do we?
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Is that public knowledge?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Well, it's easily accessible information.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Most police departments actually now get money from the federal government for anti-trafficking efforts.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: That's been happening a lot more over the last 20 years.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: You know it tracks really closely with population density, the hubs, but fact is even a lot of small towns you can find massage parlors and that kind of stuff where people who are there were told we'll get you to America.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: And then they get here and they're told you owe us $50,000 and you're going to work it off and we're going to take 80% of the money.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Or, in its deeply coercive situations that people don't have a way out of, sometimes they'll even have their passports taken.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So you know, I mean, of course, border states with in the southern parts of the United States.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Those are major areas for transporting human beings like livestock for use in sex and labor.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: And yeah, we have a lot of a mess to clean up in this country and that's just one of them.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: You know this is one of the symptoms, but actually it makes me happy to think about, like the fact that you know there's so much of a mess but we can make a difference.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: You know there hasn't been a time in human history where there weren't bad things, but we've never been more equipped than we are today to make a difference in ending them.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And looking at data and research and collective effort to make a difference.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: So we have that right now more than ever.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: As far as part one of your book, ashley.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Did you have any other questions or anything on that?
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: I do really just more for clarification and common knowledge.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: I guess is I keep picking up on keywords you're using like coercion and familial abuse versus the word organization.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Is human and sex trafficking more common amongst family members or is it actual organizations close to like working with a drug cartel kind of thing snatching people and forcing them into this, or is it both?
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Can you maybe speak to that a little bit?
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: But you already have.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Forced sex trafficking is familial.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: It's someone you know, and that's true for most crimes.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: You're most likely to end up in a situation where you're being forced into sex work by someone you're dating or a parent sometimes.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: There was a case I was familiarized with where there was a 10-year-old who was being given methamphetamine by their parents to people in their neighborhood, and so that's.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, the cartels are out there, but they could also be called a boogeyman for most people you know and there are a real problem and there's a lot going on, but for most of us it's going to be.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: That's why I said, having those strong interpersonal connections is so important, because your highest risk factor is, especially if you're someone who comes from a background of abuse and you are less familiar with what a healthy relationship looks like with anyone, you're more likely to end up being forced into these terrible situations and thinking that it's your fault or that you're the one doing something wrong, instead of the victim in that situation.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: And so educating yourselves, educating those around you, and having really strong dialogue with one another about what is okay and what is not, where our boundaries lay that maybe we can get it taught in schools.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: But right now, I think the best we're going to do is have great shows like yours.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: So do you want to take us into part two?
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Sure, Some of the policies that we need to see.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I think if you're familiar with RICO, it's the anti-racketeering ledges that was passed in the United States almost 100 years ago and it was used to help take down large criminal organizations.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Well, we need a RICO for sex trafficking.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: We need to make sure that people can't keep their hands clean from the situation.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I spoke to folks the Department of Justice prosecutors, who they want to go after these cases, but they're concerned that they're not going to have a high enough prosecution rate.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: They need to know that they're not wasting their budget on cases where they have a low likelihood of getting conviction, and so we need to make sure that the laws and to make sure we have the framework.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Already with the anti-racketeering legislation in RICO, we have the framework for doing that.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: With sex work, People should be able to keep their hands clean, but what it takes is making sure that those prosecutors at every level are supported and are going to be able to get their conviction rates.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Beyond that, you could make a strong case that we need to legalize sex work not just decriminalize it, but legalize it in this country, and that would make a huge difference in giving resources to victims and making it easier to spot victimization.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: It's sorted out from voluntary consensual sex work.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So those are more the community ones and if you don't have any questions on those, we can get into the bigger picture activism side of it, because that's the part with a lot of meat on the bones of all this.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Now, the first and the second part are familiarization.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: What does it look like and what does improvement look like?
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Section three is what you can do to end it, what you can do to make it different.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: So, section three, what you do to end it, what it means is activism.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Now, activism doesn't have to be marching out in the streets.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not entirely.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: This is going to sound a little pessimistic, but you know I've known, I've worked with veterans for peace.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I've known some amazing folks.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I've fought in the Korean war and have been protesting every war since and we're still having a lot of wars.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: You know it's tough, but there are ways.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Having been kind of inside politics, I found there are probably more effective ways to get things done, and this is an area where we can get a lot more done with coordinated action.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: So what you can do is, first of all, I'd really recommend my book because you can give it to someone else as a gift and help keep that ball rolling.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And 100% of the money from my book sales, Amazon takes their cut and then everything that comes to me, 100% of it gets donated to anti-trafficking nonprofits and I'm not on any anti-trafficking nonprofit boards at the moment.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not part of any anti-trafficking non-governmental organizations.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: All the money goes to organizations like Love 146 and the Polaris Project the largest, most respected anti-trafficking organizations and victim aid organizations.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: That's one thing you can do.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: The other is the book provides instructions on really simple, quick, easy ways to email slash.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Write a letter to your elected representatives.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: So 100 people in a small town write a letter, individual letters to their elected officials saying we want to see something done about sex work and ending sex trafficking.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: You're going to make a difference in that You're going to say, if you write me a good letter back, you're going to get a recurring monthly donation of any amount for as long as you hold this office and if I'm not satisfied with your answer, I'm going to do that for whoever runs against you forever, Maybe even volunteer for them, and I promise you that we'll get their attention.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Seriously, you get 100 people in any small town.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: You get even 1,000 people in a city like San Francisco, or 5,000 people, 2,000 people in New York City.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Anywhere you go, you can build the organization In a small town, maybe even 20 people in a small town who say we're going to move our energy, our output, our votes and our money towards this issue and you will make a difference.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I promise you that because that is what politicians respond to and most of them want to do something about this.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Sure, they think it'd be great that's I can hear it in their voices.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: They'd be great if we could get that done.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, where's the money?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Where are the votes?
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: That's what politicians respond to is voter blocks and funding for their next campaign.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: So you can do that with $5 a month donations to politicians who are already out there supporting this and send them an email and say I'm donating to you because you're supporting X, Y or Z.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: That makes a huge difference.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: That's the political side of it.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Donate to the aid organizations too.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: That is some very on the ground, immediate support, and I mentioned the large national organizations and international organizations like Love 146 and the Pleris Project, but there are smaller groups across the nation that you can vet check out, donate a few dollars to Every single month, set it and forget it, and you know you're making a difference.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: That alone is huge, and that's pretty much the short of it about how you can help end sex trafficking.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like I, ashleigh, you look so deep in thought, like where's your mind with all this?
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Well, I am, because he's Chris.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: You're talking about all of this and it sounds great, and in human trafficking is something that I truly do hold close to me mostly, mostly because I am a woman.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: But on top of that, I just had this thought pop in my head of how do you suggest we keep this as an issue in the forefront and I mean that coming from the aspect of you know, the big thing that politicians are honing in on right now is gun control and mass shootings and all of that.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: So how do we work to keep an issue like this at the forefront when there's all kinds of other stuff constantly coming out at the same time?
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: You know, we live in this world where it feels like we're going from one crisis to another and we are from climate change to school shootings we can just run down a list of, like, urgent, horrific situations and so my, as much as I care about this, I really it's an unfortunate side effect of just how tough things are right now that we have, you know, all these different organizations that are amazing, competing with one another to say our situation needs your attention, our situation needs your attention.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: All of them do, and so that's why I think to protect your spirit, because I know what it's like to be burned out as an activist, really, really intensely, and so I think, for self-preservation, what I've done and I really think it works in this book and advocates for it is set it and forget it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: It's OK.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Find that organization that you can give $5 a month to, and if you want to set an alarm on your phone or a notification on your phone once a month to send an email to an elected official and just be like, hey, I still care about this issue, then the more you can put it out of your mind when you're walking around in your life and just know you are making a difference.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: You don't have to save the world.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: You can make a difference.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: The more you can do that, the more you're as OK as you can be with all the tough stuff going on.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be at the forefront, but you know what?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I know so many people in so many different communities who can make great arguments for why their thing needs more attention, and they all do so.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: We're all doing this again.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I probably should have asked this question earlier, but are there certain places like parks or airports that people get mostly abducted at?
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: For these, I know that you had mentioned that a lot of it is people that you know, and so that could change the location.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: But as far as it being someone who doesn't know their abductor, are there high trafficked certain areas that get targeted?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the rules stay about the same, but if it outside of familial situations public transportation is a really big one, whether it's a bus or an airport.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: You really want to be aware of just situations where people might need help, but it's a tough thing for me to like.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I stand by protect yourself, be aware of your situation, keep your children close, that sort of thing.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: But also I've heard quite a few stories of people seeing, say, there was this really sad story I heard recently of a woman who she has an adopted white child and she was at the airport and someone thought she was trafficking her kid and that happens and then they got the police involved and it was just.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Those situations happen more than the actual situations of people being trafficked, and I just want us to be aware of that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Of course we want to protect people and if you see someone in a public space or child or woman who looks like they're a victim of abuse because it's the same things you're looking for as abuse then you want to call for help, you want to get someone over there to check on them.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: That's important and that goes for keeping you and your loved ones safe.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: People can be friendly, people can talk to you, but you should keep yourself and your belongings and your sense of awareness, your situational awareness, always dialed in.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Don't let your guard down or near border areas, public parks.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: It's nice to have the kids out and run, but it's good to travel in groups.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: You're always less vulnerable if you're with a group, if you're with people who care for you.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: And on the plus side too, humans are pack animals.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: We're happy when we have a pack, so go ahead and get yourself a pack and it'll keep you safe and happier.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely power in numbers.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: What would you advise somebody to do?
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: Or even if you have a certain situation that you can elaborate on.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: But if you were a victim with somebody and somebody called for help on your behalf and you were afraid to say something, I mean, what would you advise somebody to do in that situation?
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: What I'm asking?
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you're the victim and somebody's calling to get you help, get away from that person, as scary as that is and as challenging as that is.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Create distance, separate yourself, and that's part of why I really recommend I mean I wish there was more common grappling training for people because I mean, that's what you know in Israel, everybody is a member of the Israeli Defense Force at some point and I think you know, if you could get out there and learn a little bit of like, how do I create space between me and somebody else?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: How do I effectively use my weight to move them away from me and get away from them?
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: That's crucial and there are tough stories of people who did try to run away from an assailant and ask for people's help and people just you know like, oh, get away from me, it's the best you can do a lot of times to get away from them.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: And if you learn, if you can go out there and learn something like jujitsu or pepper spray them awesome stuff, but get space.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Call for help is about the best you can do.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: And there's also through the Polaris Project.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: They run national helpline for victims and if you can get ahold of that number, which is online just take out the Polaris Project it's really, really helpful to be able to call those victim advocate services and they do what they can, but they need more money.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: And that's the same goes for the government organizations.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: That's something you can advocate for if you reach out to your elected officials Is these organizations need more money to provide aid to victims.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: A lot of times for a victim who gets away from this attack or you shove them, you run away, you call for help.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: What happens after that?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: You end up in a homeless shelter.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: A lot of times really rough situations and that for some victims ends up.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: They end up back with their trafficker because they're just you know that's even also a horrific situation.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: So you know it's.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: At that point you're in a really tough spot and I really just recommend everybody learn self-defense.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a fear-based thing.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: It can be a proactive, safety-based move that is broadly helpful in many parts of your life.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one point that I would like to make a comment on, as you had mentioned.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: You know, even if it's just $5 a month donated, I will say that I am bad at contributing.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Now, if I go to some kind of rally or something, absolutely I'll take cash and dump it in the bucket.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: But you know, I think, well, what the hell is my $5 gonna do?
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: You know, and so it's, I end up not doing anything.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: But then if I'm not doing anything, then do I really have the right to bitch about the way things are going?
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: So when you made, that $5 comment, like it really hit me, like you know it.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I mean if all of us sent $5, you know, if all of us bought it went to buy me a coffeecom slash TCJ and spent $5.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: But but no, I mean I'm making a joke, but you know it does add up.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate you reminding me of that.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Now, what I did want to say that I'd forgotten earlier, and I hate that TikTok is gonna be my reference with this, but of course that's just where we are in life right now with three minute videos.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: But you had mentioned about the black lady with the adopted white child and there are a lot of videos I see on TikTok of people seeing, you know, different races and that being suspicious.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: And I'll say, like I have a lot of black people in my life and their children come and stay all night with Uncle David and we go to restaurants and stuff together and there have been people that look at me kind of weird, you know, and so I always think like what if there is a situation like that, but I'm unaware, like how do I investigate it, because you don't really have a lot of time in some cases.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: So you know, I don't, would never want it to be traumatizing for this child or even for the adult.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: But what if you?
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: know, what if it is something wrong?
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: bad.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: And I know there's some videos too, where it's like look for certain hand signals that people are making and that can kind of trigger it, but how do you know to trust that you know?
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: And so I end up creating this whole like story and war in my head to where, by the time that I think it all through, they could be gone.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I'd say you know, there's a big difference between walking up to somebody and saying you look suspicious, or just calling the cops and just going and having a conversation with someone and you know, see if you can make them and their child or the child with them laugh, how you guys doing tonight Beautiful meal, right, or that kind of thing you know, and other than that, just trying to keep an eye in a not at least of a rude way as possible.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Just do you see signs of abuse?
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Just a little mental, sexual child looking really afraid, and those are gonna be pretty big.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: If you have kids laughing and having fun at some point and maybe if I'm inside or they're crying, kids do that too.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: They can be mercurial.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: But you know, like I said too, be aware of those things.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: But also we don't need to be hyper-vigilant.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't have a degree of benefit of the doubt while still investigating and checking it out, and so you can do that in ways where you don't have to be aggressive or accusatory, and so hopefully that answers your question.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: It does, it does.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: It's a topic that I've wanted to discuss.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that we found one that we can have on both shows.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I will you actually, do you have anything else?
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: I was just gonna ask him if there was anything else that he wanted to make sure that our listeners knew or were aware of, or even if it's just about his book, and definitely where to find him and where to get his book.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: You know it's really been an honor being on and I would definitely say you know if you can check out my book it's on Amazon Forced Sex Trafficking, semi-colon what it is and how you can end it.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: And, like I said, if you just buy the book, that's a few bucks.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: That goes towards the cause, but also then you gift it to a friend or you encourage a friend to buy it.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: And what I'd love to see is, let's say, the book sells 100,000 copies.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Well, if we could count on 100,000 of those people donating $5 a month to one of these nonprofits or, you know, another $5 a month to politicians with the explicit communication, this money depends on you supporting more aggressive anti-trafficking legislation for prosecuting people higher up, not the people at the bottom, protecting and helping victims Very quickly.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: That's millions of dollars a month and millions in donations to politicians and who care about this and aid organizations that are not that we were talking about a title shift.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: If just 100,000 people in the United States or, you know, around the world decided to start, you know, pick up the book, share it with someone and donate, and we can make a huge, huge, huge difference.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: And it just starts with each of us, and I want to know that everyone if I did my job right, everyone who picks up a copy of this book is gonna put a few bucks and maybe an email, but at least a few dollars towards aid organizations, because they also advocate for victims with politicians and some of them can contribute, or they have political action committees that do contribute to these organizations.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: So that's what I want to ask people to do Check out the book, but at a minimum, donate to organizations like Love for 146 and the Polaris Project and keep listening to shows like this, too, that you know have a sincere interest in sharing valuable information with the public and educating people.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: And David, can we put links to those in our show notes also?
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's what I was gonna say.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: He has sent me the link to his book.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: You've sent me the link to your book and some pictures for promo stop and then any links that you think is worth you know us sharing.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I would love to do that on, you know, both show pages and really work on getting it out there.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Perfect, excellent, thank you.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that through some of the fun conversations we've had and then even today you had mentioned maybe other possible books in the future, and so definitely keep us posted with that.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Because I know, like for surviving abuse, I wanted to be an endless amount of resources, because no one's path the way I deal with things, with my recovery is not gonna be the same for someone else, and so I wanted to be an endless amount of resources, and so I always tell people that when we can't stop from recording, you're not done with me and I'm not done with you.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: You know like I want the community to grow in and us all learn and help each other grow.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: And same with TCJ.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: I know it's a little different, but either way, it's still a growing community and I want us to all be there and help each other.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: So, chris, I've been really looking forward to this.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you both for having me.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: I look forward to talking again in the future.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Music.