Latest / The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson / A Tale of Two Trials: Trump Case Goes to the Jury & Joe Biden Makes a Surprise Visit to a Key Witness on the Eve of Hunter's Gun Trial

Transcript

A Tale of Two Trials: Trump Case Goes to the Jury & Joe Biden Makes a Surprise Visit to a Key Witness on the Eve of Hunter's Gun Trial · The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome.
0:01
Speaker 2: It is verdict with Senator Ted Cruz Ben Ferguson with
0:04
Speaker 2: you and Senator it is the trial of the century,
0:07
Speaker 2: is how they were selling it on TV today. The
0:11
Speaker 2: jury and the Donald Trump trial is going to have
0:14
Speaker 2: an awful lot of power on his future.
0:17
Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly right. We had yesterday, we had closing
0:20
Speaker 3: arguments from the defense from the prosecution, and today the
0:23
Speaker 3: judge will give jury instructions to the jury and the
0:27
Speaker 3: jury will begin to deliberate and deliberate until they reach
0:30
Speaker 3: a verdict. And so this is what it all comes
0:35
Speaker 3: down to. The witnesses are done, the evidence is done,
0:38
Speaker 3: and it now comes down to the judge and the jury,
0:41
Speaker 3: and we're going to find out the outcome. So we're
0:45
Speaker 3: going to explain what to expect, what the jury's options are,
0:48
Speaker 3: what is critical in the jury instructions, and then we're
0:51
Speaker 3: also going to talk about yet another trial, which is
0:55
Speaker 3: the Hunter Biden trial, which is about to begin, and
0:57
Speaker 3: we're going to talk about the rather astonishing thing that
1:00
Speaker 3: right before the Hunter Biden trial, Joe Biden decided a
1:03
Speaker 3: little witness tampering is a good way to start that trial.
1:06
Speaker 3: We're going to compare and contrast these two trials, these
1:09
Speaker 3: two presidents, and the very different standards of justice that
1:12
Speaker 3: have applied to both of them.
1:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, one's the trial of the century. The other one
1:15
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Speaker 2: Use the promo code verdict or nine to seven to
3:09
Speaker 2: two Patriot Senator. This has been a trial the media
3:12
Speaker 2: has been obsessed with with Donald Trump in New York.
3:15
Speaker 2: We've also been kind of looking at them hedging their bets,
3:18
Speaker 2: and I'm referring to the media. They've started to say, well,
3:21
Speaker 2: you know, Michael Cohen didn't work very well. Maybe this
3:25
Speaker 2: thing won't happen the way we thought it was. There
3:27
Speaker 2: is a chance he could not be convicted. So let's
3:30
Speaker 2: go through what is now happening with the jury. They
3:35
Speaker 2: get their instructions from the judge. That'll take about an hour.
3:39
Speaker 2: They then have to go deliberate, and at that point
3:41
Speaker 2: there's nothing left from the outside world but for us
3:44
Speaker 2: to wait. So what is the jury's options. The Democrats
3:48
Speaker 2: want Trump to go to jail. They've been throwing these
3:51
Speaker 2: stories out there, the Secret Service talking to jail about
3:54
Speaker 2: maybe him. If he goes to jail, then there's the
3:56
Speaker 2: other possibility of a hung jury or not guilty. Tell
4:01
Speaker 2: me and explain each one of these scenarios.
4:05
Speaker 3: Well, as you noted, the judge is going to start
4:07
Speaker 3: the day by giving the jury instructions. The jury instructions
4:10
Speaker 3: matter enormously, and we're going to find out just how
4:13
Speaker 3: wildly biased this judge is. Those jury instructions are going
4:17
Speaker 3: to set up what the task is. It's the judge's
4:19
Speaker 3: job to tell the jury what the law is and
4:21
Speaker 3: depending on what the judge instructs. That could well be
4:25
Speaker 3: putting a finger on the scale and leaning in against
4:30
Speaker 3: Trump and in favor of the prosecution. As we've talked
4:33
Speaker 3: about on this pod, there are many aspects of the
4:35
Speaker 3: prosecution that did not go well for the prosecutor. Michael
4:39
Speaker 3: Cohen was a disaster of a witness. He admitted to
4:43
Speaker 3: lying on the stand. He admitted to being a thief
4:45
Speaker 3: on the stand. That really is a first. I don't
4:47
Speaker 3: know of another trial where the star witness admits and
4:50
Speaker 3: breaks news. Oh, by the way, I stole a bunch
4:52
Speaker 3: of money from you too.
4:53
Speaker 4: That.
4:54
Speaker 3: As we talked about this on this podcast that had
4:57
Speaker 3: CNN crying in their beer, I got to say, I
5:00
Speaker 3: do feel a little bad for CNN. I don't know
5:02
Speaker 3: what they're actually going to cover when this trial is over.
5:04
Speaker 3: They're certainly not going to cover the Hunter Biden trial
5:06
Speaker 3: because that would entail saying something negative about the White House,
5:09
Speaker 3: So they won't do that.
5:10
Speaker 2: The way you just insulted beer drinkers, I don't think
5:13
Speaker 2: they drink beer at Cena.
5:14
Speaker 1: I think it's more like a white claw. I'm just
5:15
Speaker 1: gonna be honest with you.
5:17
Speaker 3: Hey, don't knock white claws. I had white claws thrown
5:19
Speaker 3: at me, two of them. It's you know, that's where
5:23
Speaker 3: you need catike reflexes. If someone throws a white claw,
5:26
Speaker 3: you gotta duck.
5:28
Speaker 1: You gotta duck.
5:29
Speaker 2: I will say you and I had a white claw
5:31
Speaker 2: at one of the shows after that happened.
5:33
Speaker 1: Can we both agree that might be one of the
5:35
Speaker 1: worst drinks you've ever had in your touch.
5:37
Speaker 3: Last y I've had precisely one white claw in my life,
5:40
Speaker 3: and I didn't finish mine.
5:41
Speaker 1: I didn't finish money there. It was like seventy five
5:43
Speaker 1: percent still in the bottle. It was disgusting. But then
5:48
Speaker 1: at CNN, I'm sure they drink that stuff.
5:50
Speaker 3: I you know, probably with a little pink umbrella. But
5:55
Speaker 3: CNN is they're worried, the media is worried that Trump
5:59
Speaker 3: will be acquitted. We'll find out. Look, the jury has
6:02
Speaker 3: not been sequestered. So they're all in New York. They
6:04
Speaker 3: all went over a Memorial Day weekend. They were surrounded
6:08
Speaker 3: by their friends and family, presumably, and my guess is
6:10
Speaker 3: a whole lot of them were saying, you got to
6:14
Speaker 3: convict this guy. You got to convict this guy. They're
6:15
Speaker 3: not supposed to discuss the case with anybody, but the
6:19
Speaker 3: jury really should have been sequestered, and the jury instructions
6:24
Speaker 3: are going to matter a lot. And by the way,
6:26
Speaker 3: if Trump is convicted, one of the many things that
6:29
Speaker 3: could lead to an appeal is what's in the jury instructions.
6:32
Speaker 3: And I'm going to break down in particular an issue
6:34
Speaker 3: on that in a second. But you ask what will happen. Look,
6:37
Speaker 3: they're thirty four counts of falsifying business records, and so
6:41
Speaker 3: the jury has to reach a verdict on each of
6:43
Speaker 3: the thirty four counts, and the options are guilty or
6:46
Speaker 3: not guilty. Now to find the defendant guilty. To find
6:50
Speaker 3: Trump guilty, the jury has to be unanimous of all
6:52
Speaker 3: twelve jurors have to conclude he's guilty. Now, they don't
6:56
Speaker 3: have to reach the same result in every one of
6:57
Speaker 3: the counts, So they could conceivably find him guiltlty on
7:00
Speaker 3: some and not guilty on others, but it has to
7:03
Speaker 3: be unanimous in order to find him guilty. If they
7:06
Speaker 3: can't reach an outcome, if they're deadlocked, then you could
7:09
Speaker 3: have a hung jury, and a hung jury leads to a
7:11
Speaker 3: best trial, and they could start the whole thing all
7:13
Speaker 3: over again, And in terms of timing, we don't know
7:16
Speaker 3: how quick this could be. That we could see a
7:18
Speaker 3: verdict today, we could see a verdict tomorrow, or they
7:21
Speaker 3: could spend a week or two deliberating and end up
7:25
Speaker 3: being deadlocked. All of those are possibilities, and we don't
7:28
Speaker 3: really know what the time he'll be.
7:29
Speaker 2: Can we go back to hung jury just for a
7:31
Speaker 2: second and explain that a little bit more? Is that
7:34
Speaker 2: a positive if you're the person he accused? Obviously in
7:38
Speaker 2: this scenario that would be Donald Trump, And then you
7:41
Speaker 2: mentioned appeal. Play that out for us, and what would
7:44
Speaker 2: that look like in the timeline.
7:46
Speaker 3: Well, look, for a criminal defendant, a hung jury is
7:49
Speaker 3: a victory. It's certainly a lot better than a guilty verdict.
7:51
Speaker 3: So a hung jury means the prosecution failed to convict you,
7:55
Speaker 3: but it's not a verdict of innocence of not guilty.
7:59
Speaker 3: And so the result of a hung jury is that
8:03
Speaker 3: the judge is forced to clar abyss trial and you
8:06
Speaker 3: can go to the trial all over again. And so,
8:10
Speaker 3: but a criminal defendant in normal circumstances, and not a
8:13
Speaker 3: thing about this is remotely normal. But in normal circumstances,
8:17
Speaker 3: a criminal defendant is pretty durned happy with the hung jury.
8:20
Speaker 3: It means the prosecution failed, and with some frequency the
8:24
Speaker 3: prosecution does not chooses not to try it a second time.
8:28
Speaker 3: And so a hung jury is at least a partial
8:32
Speaker 3: victory for the defense. But as I said, it can
8:34
Speaker 3: all happen again, which truly would be a nightmare. But
8:38
Speaker 3: CNN may be rooting for that because, as I said,
8:40
Speaker 3: they got to cover something for the next couple of months,
8:42
Speaker 3: and they're not going to cover the failures of the
8:44
Speaker 3: Biden White House, so this is all that's left to them.
8:47
Speaker 2: If this goes that scenario where someone holds out and
8:51
Speaker 2: they say, hey, I'm not going to convict, and then
8:56
Speaker 2: you look at the timeline down the road, could this
8:58
Speaker 2: still Would this be after a election day before election day?
9:01
Speaker 2: And if Donald Trump wins reelection, right, he gets elect
9:05
Speaker 2: this second time? The question I've been asked, and I said,
9:08
Speaker 2: I'm not a legal scholar, so I'm going to ask you.
9:10
Speaker 2: Could the president in theory pardon himself?
9:12
Speaker 3: No, okay, Now, the president can pardon himself from federal offenses.
9:16
Speaker 3: And so the indictments from the Department of Justice, there
9:21
Speaker 3: are two different indictments from the Special Council Jack Smith.
9:24
Speaker 3: There is the one that is the Document's case that's
9:27
Speaker 3: down in Florida for his alleged possession and legal possession
9:31
Speaker 3: of classified documents at Marlago. There is the second one
9:34
Speaker 3: that is the indictment in DC for January sixth. Both
9:38
Speaker 3: of those the president could pardon himself because those are
9:41
Speaker 3: federal claims. He wouldn't actually need to pardon himself because
9:46
Speaker 3: he could just direct the Department of Justice to dismiss
9:48
Speaker 3: the cases. And so if Trump is elected, both of
9:53
Speaker 3: those cases will go away. What he can't pardon himself
9:57
Speaker 3: of is the state offenses. So he can't part himself
10:01
Speaker 3: of the New York criminal charges. He can't pardon himself
10:03
Speaker 3: for the Georgia criminal charges because neither of those are
10:06
Speaker 3: federal charges. They're both state charges, and so only the
10:10
Speaker 3: governor can pardon. Actually, in Georgia, the governor can't pardon
10:14
Speaker 3: until after the trial. So even in that circumstance, it's
10:17
Speaker 3: not subject to a pardon until after the trial.
10:20
Speaker 2: So let's talk about if the jury goes in there
10:24
Speaker 2: is what has to take place for them to find
10:26
Speaker 2: him either guilty or innocent. Does that have to be
10:30
Speaker 2: unanimous in these state cases.
10:31
Speaker 1: So it does have to be unanimous.
10:33
Speaker 3: It has to be unanimous as to each of the counts,
10:35
Speaker 3: if any, on which he's found guilty. Now, this is
10:39
Speaker 3: where the jury instructions really matter, though, because it depends
10:42
Speaker 3: on what the judge asks them to find. Remember these
10:45
Speaker 3: claims that these charges are all for bookkeeping offenses. They're
10:51
Speaker 3: therefore thirty four allegedly false entries of a bookkeeping Now,
10:57
Speaker 3: under New York law, those books keeping offenses or misdemeanors
11:01
Speaker 3: and misdemeanors on which the statute of limitations has run.
11:05
Speaker 3: And so the whole trick of this very creative and
11:10
Speaker 3: frankly frivolous prosecution is they're trying to bootstrap a misdemeanor,
11:16
Speaker 3: and a misdemeanor is a crime that is punishable by
11:19
Speaker 3: less than a year in jail, and a misdemeanor typically
11:21
Speaker 3: as a short statute of limitations. They're trying to bootstrap
11:25
Speaker 3: it by focusing on another crime. And so if the
11:32
Speaker 3: book keeping offense is in furtherance of another crime, it
11:36
Speaker 3: can be elevated to a felony, which gives you a
11:38
Speaker 3: longer statute of limitations and longer a longer potential jail sentence.
11:45
Speaker 3: But what is really going to be critical is what
11:49
Speaker 3: the judge tells the jury they have to find about
11:53
Speaker 3: this so called other crime. And I will say there
11:55
Speaker 3: was a really good article that was written by Byron
11:57
Speaker 3: York and the Washington Examiner entitled Judgment Week how prosecutors
12:02
Speaker 3: will use the quote other crime against Trump? And in
12:07
Speaker 3: it he points out that the bookkeeping offenses are misdemeanors,
12:11
Speaker 3: but that the theory that they're using is that in
12:15
Speaker 3: addition to the bookkeeping offenses, Trump violated a New York
12:21
Speaker 3: state election law barring the quote conspiracy to promote or
12:25
Speaker 3: prevent election by unlawful means. Now, that is a misdemeanor
12:30
Speaker 3: as well. But what the Manhattan DA is arguing is
12:34
Speaker 3: that the two misdemeanors, when taken together, add up to
12:37
Speaker 3: thirty four felony charges and a maximum sentence of one
12:41
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty six years in prison for Trump. And
12:44
Speaker 3: so which is really I mean, it's a bootstrap strap
12:48
Speaker 3: that is an extraordinary bootstrap. But what is even more
12:53
Speaker 3: amazing is it's not clear what the judge is going
12:55
Speaker 3: to instruct the jury about the so called object crime.
12:59
Speaker 3: In other words, do they have to agree on what
13:03
Speaker 3: the object crime is. And first of all, what is
13:08
Speaker 3: the object crime? Is there only one? Are there more
13:10
Speaker 3: than one? Does the object crime require an object crime
13:15
Speaker 3: of its own? What level of proof do the prosecutors
13:18
Speaker 3: have to have to reach before they can find Trump guilty? Remember,
13:21
Speaker 3: ordinarily in a criminal case you have to prove beyond
13:24
Speaker 3: a reasonable doubt. Well, do they have to prove the
13:26
Speaker 3: object crime behind a reasonable doubt? And does the object
13:30
Speaker 3: crime even have to be a crime? And all of
13:33
Speaker 3: these were argued about before the judge. So last Tuesday,
13:38
Speaker 3: both sets of lawyers met with a judge and there
13:40
Speaker 3: was a lot of discussion about the most frequently mentioned
13:43
Speaker 3: object crime, which is the New York State election law,
13:47
Speaker 3: outlawing the promotion of an election by unlawful means. And
13:51
Speaker 3: the question is what does unlawful means? Now, the prosecutors
13:54
Speaker 3: cite an alleged violation of the Federal Election Campaign Act.
13:58
Speaker 3: And remember we talked about in a previous pot how
14:00
Speaker 3: the judge would not allow Brad Smith, the former chairman
14:03
Speaker 3: of the Federal Election Commission, to testify about the Federal
14:06
Speaker 3: Election Campaign Act. Now, typically violations of that act are
14:10
Speaker 3: a civil matter. Would a civil matter be an object
14:14
Speaker 3: to crime. Well, there was a back and forth about
14:17
Speaker 3: whether it could be a civil offense or if it
14:19
Speaker 3: had to be actually a crime, and that also led
14:22
Speaker 3: to a discussion. And we'll see what the jury instructions
14:24
Speaker 3: say about the men's raya and in particular whether it
14:28
Speaker 3: has to be a willful violation the Trump The Trump
14:32
Speaker 3: lawyers wanted the judge to tell the jury that they
14:34
Speaker 3: must find that Trump willfully violated the law, which means
14:38
Speaker 3: that he specifically knew what he was doing was a crime,
14:41
Speaker 3: and that he did it anyway. And so here's what
14:45
Speaker 3: Andrew McCarthy, who's a very very experienced federal prosecutor and
14:49
Speaker 3: commentator and a good friend, here's what he wrote about that.
14:53
Speaker 3: He wrote, quote, whenever a crime is alleged, prosecutors must
14:57
Speaker 3: prove criminal intent. Wilfulness is the most burdensome intent standard
15:01
Speaker 3: in the criminal law. Prosecutors to prove that the defendant
15:05
Speaker 3: was aware of a legal duty and intentionally violated that duty.
15:09
Speaker 3: So those questions, and by the way, what did DOJ say.
15:13
Speaker 3: DOJ came in and argued, no, no, no, no, we don't have
15:16
Speaker 3: to prove any of that. Instead, they said that the
15:19
Speaker 3: underlying crime. The unlawful means doesn't have to be a crime.
15:23
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be a criminal matter. And DOJ argued, quote,
15:26
Speaker 3: by its plain meaning, unlawful doesn't mean criminal, it means
15:29
Speaker 3: violation of law. That's what Michael Colangelo, who was one
15:34
Speaker 3: of the top officials at the Biden Justice Department and
15:36
Speaker 3: who left to join this rabid partisan DA's legal team.
15:41
Speaker 3: Colangelo argued, quote, the plain text of the statute provides
15:44
Speaker 3: that election law conspiracy occurred when the intended results are
15:48
Speaker 3: executed through unlawful means. Because it doesn't need to be
15:52
Speaker 3: criminal unlawful means, there's no need to add the word
15:54
Speaker 3: wilful into the jury's instructions. So the prosecution's position in
16:00
Speaker 3: the object crime is it doesn't have to be a crime,
16:03
Speaker 3: and he doesn't They don't have to prove that he
16:05
Speaker 3: intended to commit a crime, and that it doesn't have
16:09
Speaker 3: to be even a criminal act. It could be a
16:11
Speaker 3: civil violation of the Federal Election Campaign Act. Now, Trump's
16:16
Speaker 3: lawyers came back and said, I think quite sensibly, for
16:20
Speaker 3: this to be a criminal conspiracy, there has to be
16:24
Speaker 3: a criminal object Otherwise, quote, we just have a civil conspiracy,
16:32
Speaker 3: that it can't be used to elevate this into a felony.
16:38
Speaker 3: The judge said he was reserving decision on the willfully issue.
16:42
Speaker 3: So what the standard of intent is is going to
16:46
Speaker 3: be a big deal. Now, there were separately a debate
16:49
Speaker 3: about whether there has to be one object crime. Does
16:52
Speaker 3: the jury all have to agree on one object crime
16:55
Speaker 3: or could there be several, which with each juror finding
16:57
Speaker 3: a different object crime and say I like that one,
17:00
Speaker 3: so I'll use it to elevate it to a fellow. No, No,
17:02
Speaker 3: I like that one. And what are the prosecutors have
17:05
Speaker 3: to have to prove? Now, Colangelo argued, quote, the people
17:10
Speaker 3: weren't required to identify any object crime, so you could
17:13
Speaker 3: be have it be whatever you want it. Trump lawyers
17:17
Speaker 3: responded that, quote, the jury cannot infer that the unlawful
17:23
Speaker 3: means is established just by the fact that there was
17:26
Speaker 3: an agreement to promote Presidents Trump's election in twenty sixteen.
17:30
Speaker 3: Of course there was, he won. They have to establish
17:33
Speaker 3: some kind of unlawful means to make that a crime.
17:36
Speaker 3: So these questions are a big, big deal. And as
17:42
Speaker 3: we sit here today, we don't know how the judge
17:44
Speaker 3: is going to resolve it. But if the judge sends
17:46
Speaker 3: it to the jury and says the prosecution doesn't have
17:49
Speaker 3: to prove beyond reasonable doubt the object crime, it doesn't
17:53
Speaker 3: have to be a crime at all. You don't have
17:54
Speaker 3: to decide what the object crime is. Each one of
17:56
Speaker 3: you can pick a different object crime. That really illustrates
18:00
Speaker 3: how the jury instructions can stack the deck for the prosecution.
18:04
Speaker 3: My strong suspicions is we're going to see some pretty
18:08
Speaker 3: messed up jury instructions today, but we'll find out when
18:11
Speaker 3: the judge gives them.
18:13
Speaker 2: So you look at all these counts, and I've seen
18:15
Speaker 2: this really pick up steam on seeing NMSNBC and the others,
18:20
Speaker 2: and it's the look, we don't have to basically get
18:24
Speaker 2: Trump on everything. We just need to get him on something,
18:27
Speaker 2: and with so many charges against him, the jury will
18:32
Speaker 2: probably this is my words, what they were pontificating about
18:35
Speaker 2: is that they're going to find something to convict him on.
18:38
Speaker 2: And that's all we really want here. Is that a
18:41
Speaker 2: real strategy, Like hey, throw the book at him and
18:44
Speaker 2: eventually like there's enough smoke, there's fire. They don't like him,
18:47
Speaker 2: and they're like, all right, we'll let him go on
18:49
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff, but we're going to nail
18:50
Speaker 2: at least on something.
18:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, that is possible. I don't think that's likely.
18:55
Speaker 3: I think it's likely to be binary. I think you're
18:57
Speaker 3: either going to have one or more jurors that say
18:59
Speaker 3: this is all crap, this is garbage, no, or it's
19:04
Speaker 3: going to be a partisan jury that says we hate
19:06
Speaker 3: Donald Trump and he's guilty on everything. I think it
19:08
Speaker 3: is likely to be one or the other. So actually,
19:11
Speaker 3: really one of three that you could get guilty on
19:13
Speaker 3: all of them, you could get not guilty on all
19:15
Speaker 3: of them, or a hung jury.
19:17
Speaker 2: If you get the hung jury and you get the appeal,
19:23
Speaker 2: So there's no appeal from hung jury. Okay, So no
19:25
Speaker 2: appeal from hung jury, just okay. So hung jury is
19:28
Speaker 2: a victory by default. Yes, but the prosecution can bring
19:32
Speaker 2: the case again. It could literally start all over.
19:37
Speaker 1: And that could and that can happen how quickly.
19:39
Speaker 3: As quickly as the judge wants to. The judge would
19:41
Speaker 3: have to panel a different jury. So a hung jury means, okay,
19:45
Speaker 3: we didn't get to a result, thank you jurors for serving,
19:49
Speaker 3: and you know, the judge could say, all right, next
19:51
Speaker 3: week we're gonna start vardire and we're going to bring
19:54
Speaker 3: in potential jurors and get going again. I doubt it
19:57
Speaker 3: would happen that fast, but it conceivably could.
20:00
Speaker 2: If you're trying to influence the outcoming election and tying
20:03
Speaker 2: Trump up in office, and that's your goal, then it
20:05
Speaker 2: would make sense. Right you would want to do it
20:07
Speaker 2: pretty quickly, and seven weeks can turn into fourteen weeks,
20:10
Speaker 2: fifteen weeks where you can't campaign. What would be the
20:14
Speaker 2: political fallout of this? And this is where I want
20:18
Speaker 2: you to put on a different hat. I look at
20:21
Speaker 2: this and I think they're messing with fire here. I
20:24
Speaker 2: think that this is a There could be massive political fallout.
20:28
Speaker 2: Democrats are obviously hoping for a conviction so they can
20:31
Speaker 2: then and this has been reported now in leak the
20:34
Speaker 2: White House that they're preparing for the president to make
20:37
Speaker 2: a statement from the White House. So will quote look
20:40
Speaker 2: non political being at the White House. If Trump is convicted,
20:44
Speaker 2: if it is a hung jury, or if he is innocent, innocent,
20:48
Speaker 2: found innocent, how do the politics of all those three
20:51
Speaker 2: scenarios play out for them?
20:53
Speaker 3: Well, this is all politics, This is not law, This
20:55
Speaker 3: is not a real criminal offense. There's no human being
20:58
Speaker 3: on planet Earth who would besecuted for these boloney charges
21:02
Speaker 3: if they were not named Donald J.
21:04
Speaker 1: Trump.
21:06
Speaker 3: And so of course the Biden White House is salivating now.
21:09
Speaker 3: They're fairly clottish and announcing, Oh, the President's going to
21:12
Speaker 3: do it addressed from the White House. He's hoping to
21:15
Speaker 3: be reveling in. You know, Donald Trump is a felon.
21:18
Speaker 3: We now know that. Who knows how gleeful he will be.
21:22
Speaker 3: But it's all about politics, you know. I do think
21:25
Speaker 3: Democrats are dismayed. They really had hoped this trial would
21:28
Speaker 3: drag Trump through the mud and his numbers would plummet,
21:31
Speaker 3: and his numbers continue to be strong. He's leading in
21:33
Speaker 3: virtually every swing state. So I think democrats, you know,
21:36
Speaker 3: there was a big story this week about Democrats panicking
21:39
Speaker 3: about how badly Biden's doing. I will say, if there's
21:42
Speaker 3: a hung jury and the prosecution says, okay, we're going
21:46
Speaker 3: to go do it again, I think there will be
21:49
Speaker 3: a lot of exasperation expressed politically. But I think at
21:54
Speaker 3: the end of the day, this trial has not accomplished
21:58
Speaker 3: what the rabid partisans wanted it to accomplish. But I
22:02
Speaker 3: don't even know that they can see that Trump derangement
22:06
Speaker 3: syndrome is real. There are people who's mind has melted.
22:10
Speaker 3: Let's give it an example. Robert de Niro decided, you
22:14
Speaker 3: know what this country really needs is an angry left
22:17
Speaker 3: wing Hollywood actor outside the trial, and he kind of
22:20
Speaker 3: lost it. He had a meltdown. Give a listen to
22:22
Speaker 3: what de Niro said outside the trial.
22:26
Speaker 4: Under Trump, this kind of government will perish from the earth.
22:32
Speaker 1: I don't mean to scare you.
22:34
Speaker 4: No, no, wait, maybe I do mean to scare you.
22:36
Speaker 4: If Trump returns to the White House, you can kiss
22:39
Speaker 4: these freedoms goodbye that we all take for granted, and
22:44
Speaker 4: elections forget about it. That's over, that's done. If he
22:48
Speaker 4: gets in, I can tell you right now he will
22:52
Speaker 4: never leave. He will never leave.
22:56
Speaker 1: You know that he will never leave. By the way,
23:02
Speaker 1: isn't that what they said last time?
23:03
Speaker 2: If Donald Trump got elected, he would never leave and
23:05
Speaker 2: he wasn't gonna leave office, And yet he did.
23:07
Speaker 3: I gotta say what I'm most happy listening to it
23:10
Speaker 3: is he stands there and goes forget about it, Like yo,
23:14
Speaker 3: I'm in New York. I'm playing a muchstance. He gonna
23:16
Speaker 3: leave forget about it.
23:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's de Niro for you. And
23:21
Speaker 2: I love how they roll out these stars like they're
23:23
Speaker 2: trying to bring attention to this, hoping that it's their
23:26
Speaker 2: best political wet dream they've ever had, which is Donald
23:29
Speaker 2: Trump is convicted. And then that brings me to my
23:33
Speaker 2: final question on this. Let's say Trump is convicted. It's
23:37
Speaker 2: been leaked that the Secret Service has been talking with
23:40
Speaker 2: the prison system about how they would incarcerate Donald Trump.
23:47
Speaker 2: Can you run from prison if you're incarcerated, if hypothetically
23:50
Speaker 2: that happened, how does that work?
23:52
Speaker 3: Well, look, there is no legal bar, there's no constitutional
23:55
Speaker 3: bar uh to a felon being elected president. There's no
24:00
Speaker 3: legal or constitutional bar to someone in jail being elected president. Now,
24:04
Speaker 3: I do not believe Donald Trump will go to jail.
24:07
Speaker 3: That will not be the outcome. I think even this
24:10
Speaker 3: rabbid partisan judge would allow him to be be free
24:15
Speaker 3: while the appeal was pending. And I think if they
24:19
Speaker 3: tried to put him in jail, you would see an
24:21
Speaker 3: emergency appeal. And I do not think he is going
24:24
Speaker 3: to jail. So I think that is is in the
24:26
Speaker 3: rabbit fantasies of left wing delusions. But I think if
24:32
Speaker 3: they did actually put him in jail, I mean I
24:35
Speaker 3: said this on a previous pod. If they did actually
24:37
Speaker 3: put him in jail, I think he'd win the presidency
24:39
Speaker 3: with three hundred and more electoral votes.
24:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:42
Speaker 2: And the crazy thing is, we've been talking so much
24:45
Speaker 2: about this case. There's another very big case that starts
24:49
Speaker 2: with Hunter Biden. I want to get into that, but
24:52
Speaker 2: first I want to take a moment and say thank you.
24:55
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Speaker 2: against the radicals at Planned parenthood. All right, Senator, I
26:50
Speaker 2: want to get to the other big case, and it
26:53
Speaker 2: is a very big case. It is a case that
26:56
Speaker 2: apparently is so nerve wracked in the White House. It
27:00
Speaker 2: looks like the President could have been involved in witness tampering.
27:04
Speaker 2: Ahead of the trial of his son, Hunter Biden. Let's
27:07
Speaker 2: talk about that.
27:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So this trial begins on Monday, June third.
27:12
Speaker 3: Hunter Biden is going to face a federal trial for
27:16
Speaker 3: his gun crimes and one of the key witnesses is
27:20
Speaker 3: going to be Halle Biden. Now who is Halle Biden.
27:25
Speaker 3: Halle Biden is the widow of Bo Biden, Hunter's older
27:30
Speaker 3: brother who tragically passed away of cancer, and also the
27:35
Speaker 3: ex girlfriend of Hunter Biden, and Halle Biden is expected
27:41
Speaker 3: to be a key witness. And Sunday night, Joe Biden
27:46
Speaker 3: stopped by Halle's house. It was about eight pm on
27:50
Speaker 3: Sunday night. Joe Biden came by and Halle was dating
27:54
Speaker 3: Hunter at the time of the crimes, and she's one
27:57
Speaker 3: of the expected witnesses. She was married to Bo Biden.
28:01
Speaker 3: He died in twenty fifteen of brain cancer, and the
28:06
Speaker 3: prosecutors alleged that Hunter lied about his drug use on
28:11
Speaker 3: the gun purchase forms and then that he illegally possessed
28:14
Speaker 3: at least one gun, which Hallie is alleged to have
28:18
Speaker 3: thrown in a public dumpster in twenty eighteen. So she's
28:21
Speaker 3: the one who allegedly got rid of the evidence, and
28:25
Speaker 3: so she's not just a witness, she is a central
28:30
Speaker 3: witness in the case. And the White House spokesman when
28:34
Speaker 3: asked about, gosh, why is Joe Biden visiting one of
28:38
Speaker 3: the key witnesses in the case against his son eight
28:41
Speaker 3: days before the trial, they said, no, no, no, he visited
28:45
Speaker 3: her because of the approaching ninth anniversary of Bo's passing. Now,
28:52
Speaker 3: I got to say that is that strikes me as
28:57
Speaker 3: a highly dubious explanation, naturally raises the question, gosh, did
29:03
Speaker 3: he did he visit Hally before the eighth anniversary? Before
29:08
Speaker 3: the seventh anniversary is sixth, fifth, fourth, third, second, first,
29:12
Speaker 3: And if he did, I'm unaware of it. And you
29:15
Speaker 3: certainly would think the White House if if that was
29:17
Speaker 3: their line and he had visited her at any time previously,
29:21
Speaker 3: you sure do think the White House would have pointed
29:23
Speaker 3: it out. But they didn't. And and I got to say,
29:28
Speaker 3: for the President of the United States, listen, when the
29:30
Speaker 3: president travels, the president never travels quietly. It's not subtle.
29:35
Speaker 3: You come in with a motorcade with secret service, and
29:38
Speaker 3: so for him to go it's it's brazen.
29:41
Speaker 1: It is Joe.
29:44
Speaker 3: Biden and the Biden family feels that they are not
29:47
Speaker 3: bound they behave as if they feel that they're not
29:50
Speaker 3: bound by criminal law, by any any restrictions, that that
29:54
Speaker 3: he's entitled to go. And the natural presumption is that
29:58
Speaker 3: he had a conversation with her about what she was
30:00
Speaker 3: going to say whence she testifies.
30:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it would be important. Hey we want to
30:05
Speaker 2: know what you're going to say, or Hey, here's what
30:07
Speaker 2: we need you to say. If anyone else was in
30:11
Speaker 2: this scenario, what traditionally would happen when before a trial
30:16
Speaker 2: if everyone found out about the same way we did,
30:19
Speaker 2: regardless of an alibi, If Trump would have done this,
30:22
Speaker 2: if I was on trial or you were on trial
30:23
Speaker 2: and we were going to meet with somebody that's about
30:26
Speaker 2: to be a witness and testimony for a kid, like,
30:27
Speaker 2: what would happen.
30:29
Speaker 3: Well, you would expect the judge to make an inquiry
30:33
Speaker 3: of why were you Why were you meeting with this person?
30:37
Speaker 3: Who expect the prosecutor to make an inquiry as to
30:40
Speaker 3: why were you meeting with this witness? Did you discuss
30:45
Speaker 3: did you discuss what her testimony was going to be?
30:50
Speaker 3: So witness temp tampering is attempting to improperly influence or
30:55
Speaker 3: change the testimony of a witness within criminal proceedings. And
31:01
Speaker 3: it we don't know that that happened. But the United States,
31:06
Speaker 3: a federal crime a witness tamper. It's decided defined by statute.
31:10
Speaker 3: It's eighteen USC. Section fifteen twelve, which is entitled quote
31:15
Speaker 3: tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant, and it
31:20
Speaker 3: describes witness tampering is a crime even if the proceedings
31:24
Speaker 3: not pending, and it is a criminal offense even if
31:28
Speaker 3: you are unsuccessful in your attempt to tamper. In other words,
31:33
Speaker 3: if you try to convince the witness, hey, you know,
31:36
Speaker 3: it really help if you testify to X, even though
31:38
Speaker 3: X isn't the case. The witness might not do what
31:40
Speaker 3: you said, but it is still witness tampering. And and
31:45
Speaker 3: that's a natural question. Now I'm quite confident the Department
31:49
Speaker 3: of Justice is not going to inquire of Joe Biden,
31:52
Speaker 3: what conversation did you have with a witness? They might
31:55
Speaker 3: ask her, It is possible they ask her, but I
32:00
Speaker 3: think there's no indication that the DOJ or the trial
32:05
Speaker 3: court is got to even ask what Joe Biden said
32:08
Speaker 3: to her.
32:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the media was silent on this, excluding Fox News,
32:11
Speaker 2: which broke this story.
32:12
Speaker 1: Here's how they reported it.
32:14
Speaker 5: President Biden also made a surprise, unannounced stop at Hallie
32:18
Speaker 5: Biden's house in Delaware last night. She is bo Biden's
32:22
Speaker 5: widow and Hunter Biden's ex girlfriend, who was also set
32:26
Speaker 5: to testify in Hunter Biden's gun trial in Delaware that
32:30
Speaker 5: begins next week. White House officials are saying this presidential
32:34
Speaker 5: visit to her house had nothing to do with that testimony.
32:37
Speaker 5: They say it has to do with the upcoming ninth
32:40
Speaker 5: anniversary of bo Biden's passing.
32:42
Speaker 2: Jillian all Right, by the way, how often does the
32:45
Speaker 2: President United States of America make a surprise, unannounced visit
32:49
Speaker 2: in and around Washington, d C. In a massive motorcade.
32:52
Speaker 2: That has not happen very often.
32:55
Speaker 3: So, look, it is certainly possible. Presidents do have family,
33:00
Speaker 3: they visit their family. So I don't know the frequency
33:04
Speaker 3: with which Joe Biden visits other members of the family
33:08
Speaker 3: and that presidents do that. What they don't do with
33:15
Speaker 3: great frequency is do it right before you do it
33:19
Speaker 3: when you're meeting with a key witness who is about
33:22
Speaker 3: to testify in the trial against your son that that
33:25
Speaker 3: is a dramatically different context, and it raises obvious questions,
33:30
Speaker 3: questions that the media seems completely uninterested in asking, and
33:35
Speaker 3: that I expect the Biden Department of Justice is completely
33:37
Speaker 3: uninterested in asking.
33:39
Speaker 2: I was asked this question the other day and I
33:41
Speaker 2: hadn't actually thought about it yet. And I was asked
33:43
Speaker 2: this question when I was on Fox and they said,
33:46
Speaker 2: if Hunter Biden is convicted at either of these trials,
33:50
Speaker 2: will it have any impact on the presidential election? My
33:54
Speaker 2: personal opinion, I said, is instantly, I was like, no,
33:56
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think most people know who
34:00
Speaker 2: Hunter Biden is. They know he clearly has been trading
34:03
Speaker 2: off the family's name. They know he's a drug He
34:07
Speaker 2: was a drug addic and did a lot of really
34:09
Speaker 2: bad things. We've seen the laptop. It's pretty darn clear. Well,
34:14
Speaker 2: it does believe it's going to make a difference. So
34:17
Speaker 2: in the presential action, do you believe that it will
34:19
Speaker 2: or won't.
34:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, And there's a second trial that is set to
34:23
Speaker 3: begin in September. It's in Los Angeles and it's for
34:27
Speaker 3: allegedly failing to pay more than one point four million
34:30
Speaker 3: dollars in federal taxes from twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen,
34:34
Speaker 3: so you'll have two different trials that are scheduled. Listen,
34:37
Speaker 3: if the president's son is convicted. And now remember, initially
34:41
Speaker 3: DOJ tried to give him a sweetheart deal where he
34:44
Speaker 3: wouldn't go to jail, and ultimately that that fell apart.
34:48
Speaker 3: Hunter originally agreed to a probation only deal to both
34:52
Speaker 3: the gun and tax crimes in June, but he walked
34:55
Speaker 3: away from the sweetheart deal at a July court hearing
34:58
Speaker 3: where his attorneys demanded broad immunity a past conduct of
35:03
Speaker 3: all past conduct, including violations of the Foreign Agents Registration Act,
35:09
Speaker 3: which could implicate his father, And so he walked away
35:11
Speaker 3: from a deal that would have gotten him largely scott free,
35:15
Speaker 3: but it wasn't. And remember, I think that the judge
35:18
Speaker 3: may well have signed off on that deal, but there
35:22
Speaker 3: was enormous public scrutiny on it, and I think that
35:25
Speaker 3: the judge decided, now, we can't do this.
35:29
Speaker 2: Well, and even then he was gonna admit he was
35:31
Speaker 2: guilty in that deal. So there's also it's been out
35:34
Speaker 2: there in the media like, hey, he was going to
35:37
Speaker 2: to get the deal. He's a many he was guilty
35:39
Speaker 2: of these two crimes, which in many ways insulate his father.
35:42
Speaker 2: So if he's convicted this time, I'm not sure with
35:45
Speaker 2: a lot of Democratic voters it'll matter. Yeah.
35:48
Speaker 3: Look, I don't think that that Hunter Biden is guilty
35:52
Speaker 3: of gun crimes and tax evasions. Any rational person knows
35:56
Speaker 3: that already. That's kind of maked into the cake. I
36:00
Speaker 3: agree with you, it doesn't alter the election. What this
36:03
Speaker 3: has always been about is protecting Joe and the relevance.
36:07
Speaker 3: We've talked about this a lot, although it's been a
36:09
Speaker 3: while since we've talked about on the podcast. Look, Hunter
36:12
Speaker 3: Biden is not someone of public interest separate and apart
36:17
Speaker 3: from his father. You know, he is a troubled soul
36:20
Speaker 3: who seems to have struggled his whole life, which is
36:23
Speaker 3: the entire White House defense that he has substance abuse
36:26
Speaker 3: problems and he's just had a hard time, And I
36:29
Speaker 3: don't have no reason to doubt that. That surely seems
36:31
Speaker 3: to be the case. But the reason it is a
36:35
Speaker 3: public import is that the evidence at this point keeps
36:40
Speaker 3: piling up that his entire business model was selling favors
36:44
Speaker 3: from his father, was corruption. The reason this matters is
36:48
Speaker 3: Joe Biden, not Hunter Biden, and these two trials are
36:51
Speaker 3: designed to insulate and protect Joe Biden, not to bring
36:55
Speaker 3: him in at all. And as long as Joe Biden
36:59
Speaker 3: is not directly implicated, I don't think Hunter's being convicted
37:05
Speaker 3: will have any material effect on the election. Listen, if
37:09
Speaker 3: his son goes to jail, that may be a very
37:12
Speaker 3: difficult thing personally for Joe Biden and emotionally for Joe Biden.
37:17
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, the Biden DOJ
37:21
Speaker 3: succeeded in what I think its principal goal was, which
37:24
Speaker 3: is protecting the big guy and ensuring that there's no
37:27
Speaker 3: investigation into corruption by the sitting president.
37:30
Speaker 2: Final question on this, what is the possibility of pardons
37:34
Speaker 2: for Hunter Biden by his father.
37:38
Speaker 3: Before the election? I think zero. After the election, I
37:43
Speaker 3: think if Trump wins, I would wager large sums of
37:47
Speaker 3: money before he leaves off as Joe Biden pardons his son.
37:51
Speaker 2: And there'd be no political fallout for him because he's
37:53
Speaker 2: not running for reelection again.
37:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, if he's leaving, it would be it would be
37:57
Speaker 3: a Bill Clinton Midnight pardon special. And I think, particularly
38:01
Speaker 3: if he loses, it's almost a no brainer that Joe
38:06
Speaker 3: Biden would do it. He might even do it if
38:08
Speaker 3: he wins, but there it's a more costly decision because
38:12
Speaker 3: he'd pay a political price for it, even if as
38:14
Speaker 3: he was starting a second term.
38:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see how
38:18
Speaker 2: this plays out. We're going to keep you up to
38:20
Speaker 2: date on it. Don't forget we do the show Monday,
38:22
Speaker 2: Wednesday and Friday. Hit that subscribe auto down with button
38:26
Speaker 2: in on those in between days, make sure you grab
38:28
Speaker 2: my podcast, the Ben Ferguson Podcasts, and I will keep
38:31
Speaker 2: you up to date on the breaking news in both
38:33
Speaker 2: of these cases, in between and the Center. I will
38:35
Speaker 2: see you back here on Friday morning.