Latest / The Curve / RTC84: Property Powerhouse: Nicole Bremner's wild ride with 108 property investments.

Transcript

RTC84: Property Powerhouse: Nicole Bremner's wild ride with 108 property investments. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of A new showmer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:12
I don't really get the saying.
0:14
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
0:17
You know, like, still not ready to eat.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:21
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring but it totally doesn't
0:26
eat a bit.
0:27
OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:31
OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
0:33
It's the brownie recipe.
0:35
OK, we got there, we got there, OK.
0:36
OK, well, you've really got a finance mate.
0:38
Yeah, one of us has to.
0:40
This is a joke.
0:41
OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager,
0:45
where I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
0:48
And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:51
No, that's so not the joke, Vick.
0:54
OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
0:56
Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:01
We're super excited today to have Nicole Bremner in the studio.
1:06
So Nicole is a true powerhouse in the world of finance, entrepreneurship,
1:11
property development.
1:12
She's really a jillival trades.
1:15
She's the author of a really inspiring book called Breaking It,
1:17
where she is her incredible journey from being a stay-at-home mum
1:21
to building a massive, massive property portfolio,
1:25
which we'll go into deeper through this podcast.
1:27
But her achievements don't stop there.
1:29
She's a successful investor.
1:30
She's a startup enthusiast, and she's a dedicated advocate
1:33
for women and finance, which we love.
1:36
And today, we have the privilege of hearing her story
1:40
and gaining some wisdom of her experiences on all things property.
1:45
So thank you so much for being here.
1:47
We're very excited to talk to you about all things,
1:49
investing, property, career.
1:52
I feel like we could do 17 podcast episodes
1:54
the insulin of things to talk about.
1:56
We could, thank you for having me.
1:57
I know when we were prepping for this podcast,
1:59
we were like, gosh, there's so many angles we could take here.
2:01
No, we could.
2:02
What are the fulfilling career that you've had?
2:04
Well, life, I guess.
2:05
Yeah, for like four pages of questions.
2:07
So hopefully we won a noise.
2:10
Three hours later.
2:12
No, I think the reason that we were trying to figure out
2:15
what angle we wanted to take here is obviously you've worked in the finance face
2:18
in terms of trading and investing.
2:20
And then you've also experienced being a stay-at-home mum.
2:24
And then from there you went kind of left right field into property,
2:29
which is really interesting because I think a lot of investors
2:31
are either property, property, property or their stock market stock market.
2:34
You know, a lot of people have gone really far one side
2:38
and then really far the other and also had that time at home with kids.
2:42
So if you think about yourself as an investor,
2:45
do you think of yourself as just someone that dabbles in lots of different assets?
2:50
Like how do you identify now?
2:52
Now I do identify more as an investor and very broadly as an investor
2:57
because yes, I've got the property portfolio and I have done property.
3:01
I also do invest in in the markets because actually it's a more passive return
3:05
but we can return to that.
3:07
But I also invest in startups because they it has to be interesting
3:11
what you invest in has to be interesting and that's what makes people.
3:15
That's what attract people to properties that it's tangible.
3:17
You can see it.
3:18
I used to drive around this area of Hackney with my friends and go.
3:21
I did that one, I did that one and that one's mine.
3:23
Not cool.
3:24
I've got one on Maestreet.
3:25
I've got a property down the road from here near the canal.
3:28
So I just I love that tangible side of property.
3:32
You can't get that.
3:33
You don't sell.
3:34
Yeah, I've got half an apple share.
3:36
Yeah, it's not quite the same.
3:38
Not the same.
3:39
No.
3:40
So yeah, no, definitely identify as an investor.
3:41
That'll be us one day.
3:42
So we are property.
3:44
Yes.
3:45
I can't wait.
3:47
And so how many properties do you currently own?
3:50
Now I have 18 or a share of 18.
3:53
I should say 18 or in East London or all around East London West London.
3:59
And actually, I don't have a home.
4:01
I'm renting at the moment, which is interesting.
4:03
I am I am a landlord and I'm renting.
4:05
So I see things from both sides, which is why is that why are you renting?
4:10
I cannot find a house where I live and where I choose to live.
4:14
So I moved somewhere just for schools for my children and cannot find.
4:20
A house in that area that's suitable.
4:21
And there's so much as far as transaction costs that go into property now
4:26
with all the various taxes that it's not something you just say,
4:28
right, I'm going to buy this.
4:29
And then in two years time, I'm going to switch over to another house.
4:33
I want to find the right house.
4:35
And I'm quite fussy about my list of things that I want.
4:38
So yeah, I'm renting.
4:39
Do you know what I love about your your mentality towards investing?
4:44
The idea that you acknowledge that people love property
4:47
because you can touch, see, feel loving it.
4:50
The idea that you have to be interested in what you're investing in.
4:53
And I feel like you're obviously making really clever investments.
4:57
But there's so much ethos behind the way that you spend your money and where you invest.
5:02
It's not just as simple as, oh, I want a seven percent return.
5:05
It's do you enjoy that asset or is it bringing you a lot of stress?
5:09
Is it?
5:10
I don't think I've really heard people talk about property and just generally
5:14
investing in that way.
5:16
Is that a mentality that you've developed over time?
5:18
Maybe from investments that did bring you a lot of stress
5:21
or you weren't particularly interested in like how did you kind of come
5:25
to be so secure in your approach to investing?
5:29
It's through a lot of wrong turns.
5:31
And just what you're saying there, I had to chuckle
5:35
because yeah, not everything I've touched has turned to gold by any any stretch
5:39
of the imagination.
5:40
I've had startups that I've invested in that just haven't gone anywhere
5:43
and the money's gone.
5:44
I've had properties that I've invested in where things have just gone so wrong.
5:48
My property just down the road, as glamorous as it all sounds, owning these properties.
5:52
At what 9.30 on Sunday morning, I was assembling a bed for my tenants
5:57
because their family's coming over from New Zealand.
6:00
And they need a bed.
6:02
I was happy they're lovely young ladies that live there.
6:05
So we are really happy to do that.
6:07
But this is the unglamorous side of property that you don't see.
6:10
And yes, it's taken a lot of trial and error now to realise
6:14
that this has to be a business decision as well as something that you enjoy
6:18
because if you don't enjoy it, you're not going to want to jump in a car
6:21
and drive for an hour and a quarter to assemble a bed.
6:24
You have to enjoy it.
6:26
So yes, that's the ethos.
6:28
And it's the same with the people that I invest into, the businesses I invest into.
6:33
I need to like the people because I'm going to be spending a lot of time
6:37
looking at what they're doing and working with them on this.
6:40
I have to like them and they have to like me too.
6:43
I'm intrigued to know how your career and finance
6:47
I guess helps you get into property development and do you kind of look at
6:51
property development differently to other people because you have got that.
6:54
I guess that knowledge and that expertise from a banking finance industry lens.
6:59
Definitely.
6:59
So while I do think of myself as a creative, I shouldn't really kid myself.
7:04
I'm actually a financial person because that is my background.
7:07
The creativity I just fell into because I am, I love it.
7:10
I'm very passionate about it, but my very first job was building spreadsheets
7:15
and building massive spreadsheets that actually you won't remember this,
7:19
but they filled floppy disks.
7:21
So you'd have to put it about me.
7:23
Oh, you do.
7:24
Yeah.
7:24
I mean, I remember them.
7:25
I'd never use them.
7:26
Yeah.
7:27
No, I remember using them.
7:28
I'm like, yeah, yeah, put them in and I'd have an Excel spreadsheet
7:31
that took four floppy disks to save it and then to reload it back on.
7:36
So that was my, that was my very first job and it was analyzing companies
7:41
and telling the portfolio managers whether I thought that they were good by or not
7:45
and what was happening with the company accounts.
7:47
So of course, when I look at property now, I take a very analytical approach
7:53
and it's hard not to be drawn up by the emotion just last week.
7:58
Actually, I found a property that I loved.
7:59
It's this mid-century property that hasn't been touched since the 60s or so.
8:04
And it's got the potential to subdivide the garden and put another two or three houses there.
8:10
And I got so carried away, I created a whole Pinterest board and I,
8:15
and I planned out this modern new build development I was going to put in the garden
8:19
and then around the numbers, which I should have done first actually before I hit Pinterest.
8:24
And they just didn't stack.
8:26
I would be doing it just to create a job for myself.
8:29
And I thought, I don't need a job. I'm busy enough as it is.
8:32
And I was really disappointed because no matter what I did,
8:35
I couldn't make the numbers work. Just didn't.
8:37
I don't understand how that wouldn't be profitable.
8:40
It's just about being realistic with the numbers.
8:43
And I think what used to be possible is that you'd build and you knew exactly
8:48
how much it was going to cost pretty much.
8:50
And you'd have your 10% that you would factor in for any over a budget.
8:56
Contingencies is the word I'm after.
8:58
But now with costs skyrocketing the way they are,
9:02
you have to have almost 25% contingency factored into numbers
9:07
because we've got steel prices up at least 30%.
9:10
We've got labor costs due to the shortages here in the UK because of Brexit
9:15
and our efficient workforce from Eastern Europe has said,
9:19
why don't we don't want to be there anymore?
9:21
So it's things have changed and things are not so profitable.
9:24
So you have to take a very realistic view when you're looking at those numbers.
9:28
And I think that's what's changed for me is probably in the past,
9:30
I'd be a little bit, yeah, that's going to work.
9:33
It has to work. Look how beautiful it's going to be.
9:35
And now I'm much more realistic about it.
9:37
Does that mean the kind of the optimal time to be a property developer
9:42
or to own property or to renovate or subdivide is when prices aren't moving as much?
9:48
They're not going up, they're not going down.
9:49
You can get clarity, you can get visibility on how much things will cost
9:54
because they're not moving around a lot, whereas when they are moving,
9:57
whether it's up or down, that's when it becomes a bit more tricky.
10:00
Yeah, absolutely.
10:01
And it's really difficult to pick the market and even Warren Buffett
10:05
from Berkshire Hathaway, one of the richest men in the world.
10:08
He says never try and time the market, just try and get in the market.
10:12
And the same thing for property.
10:15
However, that said, the way that things are right now in the economy,
10:19
things are pretty tough, they're pretty bad.
10:21
And house prices are going to continue to go down for quite some time now.
10:25
Things are going to get tougher for people from a cost of living perspective.
10:29
So my view is that now might not be the right time to get in.
10:33
But in four, five, six months time, that might be the right time
10:38
if you're sitting on cash to get into the market.
10:40
We've also got interest rates that are very high and potentially still
10:45
there could be a few more increases on the horizon.
10:48
But we don't know that for sure.
10:50
It depends on what's happening with inflation.
10:52
So it is a bit of timing the market.
10:54
And yes, when things are more fixed and stable,
10:58
it is an easier time to develop.
11:00
But there are always opportunities.
11:02
You can always come across things that are a good development.
11:05
This one that I looked at last week,
11:07
it might not be an opportunity at the asking price.
11:10
But let's just say the vendor was prepared to take a much greater
11:14
or a smaller price for their property than perhaps the numbers would work.
11:18
So it's about working out what might make those numbers work
11:21
so that the project will work.
11:22
I feel like the UK is probably about six months behind New Zealand at the moment
11:27
because we're seeing property prices in New Zealand starting to go back up.
11:30
Well, there's only been like one month.
11:32
But there's starting to go back up.
11:34
We're seeing interest rates that have kind of stabilized.
11:36
And so yeah, people are like, okay, cool.
11:38
Now I can get my head around the numbers and yes,
11:42
property prices are down here,
11:43
but they're probably going to go back up that kind of thing.
11:45
So I feel like the UK's probably still got a few more interest rate rises.
11:49
I mean, I'm not an economist, but yeah,
11:51
it's interesting with the timing the market thing
11:53
because a lot of people,
11:54
I think do try and time the property market more than they would the stock market
11:58
because I feel like the property market's more in the news or it's more around you.
12:02
People, more people feel it.
12:04
So yeah, it's emotional.
12:06
Whereas the stock market is almost up and down.
12:11
It seems to me that the property market's either really shitting itself
12:17
or it's doing super well.
12:19
And even I talk about it because everyone lives in a house with their own at all.
12:23
Just surrounded by property and general.
12:25
It's a much more, it's just an easier conversation people are used to having.
12:29
I think it's really interesting what you said as well around that sort of 25%
12:33
and having to have it a leeway in what you're trying to do.
12:36
Because I mean, even last night,
12:38
if I can I went for dinner at sorry house,
12:41
which by the way, expensive dinner.
12:43
Yeah.
12:44
I remember too.
12:45
Yeah.
12:45
It makes her heart like when she always does and pays way more to build than she should have.
12:51
I mean, I eat majority of the bill.
12:53
She's awarded pizza and drinks and I ate her pizza and her fries and her salad
12:59
and she paid for all of it.
13:00
Anyway, the point is is that I was this morning coming in
13:03
because the friends that I was with after she had left
13:06
ended up getting food that I didn't eat and we split the bill freeway.
13:09
Sorry, this does have a point.
13:11
I'm like, where's she going?
13:13
No, I just, I came in this morning before this record and was complaining to work about
13:19
like, God, I really need to speak up and like pay my portion of the bill and whatever.
13:23
And I was like, I think I just need to re budget.
13:25
I need to look at my budget again because that really ruffled my feathers.
13:29
You know, I was like, I had to pay maybe 30 pounds more than I maybe expected
13:33
or whatever, but it's exactly what VIX talked about quite a lot lately.
13:37
And I think it's becoming, it's being more realistic with the numbers,
13:41
whether it's your own personal budgeting, what you're, if you're doing a property development,
13:45
like I just need to have a bit more wiggle room so that if I do blow the budget,
13:50
I'm still in a really good position for what my long term goals are.
13:54
You're not financially stressed.
13:56
From week to week because if my goals are unrealistic or my numbers are unrealistic or too tight,
14:01
then it's this constant feeling of like, well, I'm not doing what I set out to do
14:06
what I've planned and kind of always feeling like you're failing at it.
14:09
And it is, it's terrible when you go over budget because it can,
14:12
it can make the difference between a project being profitable and you subsidising a project
14:18
and you never want to be in that situation.
14:20
And just to go back to the point that you raised before VIX about the stock market,
14:25
often we don't have a say when we time the market because our superannuation goes into it.
14:30
And it just goes into the stock market and we don't think about it.
14:33
So there is no timing of that.
14:35
That's if you've elected for your super to go into your pensions.
14:39
It's like he would save our pensions.
14:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:41
So it goes and it comes out of your pay and it goes straight to the market.
14:44
You don't have a choice.
14:45
Oh, sorry.
14:46
Yeah.
14:46
And another thing and that's been really helpful for me is a New Zealand company called Pocketsmith,
14:52
which I'm sure you've come across.
14:53
It's a fantastic.
14:54
I never really haven't.
14:56
Oh my goodness.
14:57
It is so bad.
14:58
I know.
14:59
And it's a personal finance and budgeting app and it costs about $30 a quarter and it links
15:07
to all your bank accounts and I can even have my business accounts linked into there.
15:11
And I can budget every single category of my spending and for me that's been really interesting.
15:17
Once you've got all set up, it takes a while.
15:19
It takes about five, ten minutes a week and you can just tweak certain things and categorise
15:24
all your spending and approve various things and yeah, it's a really good app and it's
15:29
a New Zealand company.
15:30
Wow.
15:31
So we have just started debbling in property.
15:35
Debring isn't.
15:36
I haven't been just buying properties.
15:38
I don't have 18 properties just to clarify.
15:41
Basically, because of its obviously a finance expert when it comes to particularly the stock
15:46
market, we've focused on that massively for two years and now and it's not that we haven't
15:51
wanted to do it sooner.
15:52
It's just that we really needed to, we didn't have enough resources to tackle both, I guess.
15:57
So it's really exciting to be finally kind of stepping into the property space because
16:01
a lot of especially New Zealanders are super interested and passionate about property.
16:06
And it's funny when you talk to people in New Zealand about investing and they're like,
16:08
yeah, yeah, I invest in the property and the stock market's just kind of not even on the
16:13
right yet.
16:14
Yeah.
16:15
They're so focused on growing a deposit for a house but not realising the other ways to
16:20
grow money.
16:21
I don't know, it's just, it's a fascinating, the conversation which you want to open being
16:24
like, you know, there's other ways to make money, it doesn't have to be property but everyone's
16:27
kind of conditioned in New Zealand to be like, I want to own my own house.
16:31
Yeah.
16:32
But I guess like from your experience working in both industries like the finance industry,
16:36
you obviously invest in stocks and then now have a dry, enormous property portfolio.
16:42
£120 million to be exact.
16:44
Like it was.
16:45
It was.
16:46
It was.
16:47
Yeah.
16:48
Yeah.
16:49
So I sold nearly, well, I had at one point I think 108 properties that I had a share of.
16:54
I wanted to highlight that this, I had a share of, I did know all of them, some of them
16:57
I had 10% of and others I had 100% of but I had a share of them and I've been selling
17:03
down since 2020 because as you were talking about, then people don't realise there are
17:10
other ways to invest and for me, I was overweight property and it is about having a portfolio
17:15
that is more balanced and for me, I had too much.
17:19
It was too active and not passive enough and so for me, I'm looking at other ways of
17:24
investing that is, that are more passive and the stock market is one of those.
17:30
With that in mind, I'm assuming when you say passive, you mean not having to go and build
17:34
a beard at 9.30 on Sunday morning.
17:36
Yeah, exactly.
17:37
Yeah.
17:38
So you were heavily in stocks and then you've been heavily in property.
17:42
Where would you like to land in terms of your portfolio?
17:45
What sort of the ideal weighting between the stock market and property?
17:48
What would you like that to look like?
17:50
I think 80-20 but in favour of the stock market actually is where I'm going to land as I'm
17:56
doing quite a lot of investing at the moment and just re-weighting my portfolio.
17:59
So I think that the property that I do going forward will be very much a passion project
18:05
and it will be something that I love and I can throw myself into, I'm almost buying
18:09
myself a job.
18:10
Is there something that still makes money though or is it, okay, so you're still going
18:14
to make your money?
18:15
Yeah.
18:16
And again, like the property I saw last week, I'm not going to do it if the numbers don't
18:20
stack even if I really want to because my Pinterest ball was amazing.
18:24
I feel like that would be a year, you'd be like, so I'm a Pinterest ball.
18:27
I don't say that.
18:28
I mean, the negative net, too.
18:29
It's like, no, no, the numbers don't.
18:30
The difference between the three of us is that I'd be like, oh, whatever, the numbers
18:35
don't match up.
18:36
I'm doing anyway.
18:37
There's a saying and it's that it's better to regret the ones you didn't buy than the
18:42
ones you did.
18:43
It's actually a good one.
18:44
I've never heard that before.
18:45
Oh, great quote.
18:46
What do you mean?
18:47
Are you trying to claim that one?
18:48
No, but I'm just trying to do it.
18:49
It is a good one though, because people say the opposite.
18:52
You should do all the things and maybe regret some of them then not do them.
18:56
But when it comes to investing, it's the complete opposite.
18:58
Exactly.
18:59
I think that investing in the stock market, there's an opportunity cost if you don't invest
19:02
in things.
19:03
Yeah.
19:04
But they do really well and you're regret buying them.
19:05
Oh, I love this.
19:06
We've got an alternative at a viewpoint.
19:09
Well, definitely with the stock market, because you've got inflation, so inflation's running
19:13
at what's 6.2% here in the UK.
19:16
So if you've just got your money sitting in a bank account, the opportunity costs that
19:20
you're missing by not investing in the stock market is huge and the best, I've just shopped
19:25
around the best rate I can get for my money at the moment.
19:27
I think 5.11 or premium bonds, which is a savings account, yeah, premium bonds have just
19:34
released some, but I think 6% per annum return, which is huge for premium bonds.
19:39
Yes, it's good.
19:40
So, yeah, you're still missing out on money if you don't invest it.
19:45
So, yeah, to your point, you need to do something with your money.
19:48
Yeah.
19:49
You need to do something than nothing.
19:50
Yeah.
19:51
No, because I remember you asked me ages ago, you're like, what's your worst investment
19:53
ever made?
19:54
And I was like, it was an investment that I didn't make.
19:57
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:58
You know, like it wasn't that I put money into something and it went down.
20:01
It was, I remember being like, should I invest in this?
20:03
And I said, no, and it went up to 400%, so yeah, I kind of know exactly what I'm taking
20:09
as the, you know, middle man here, between his theory heated debate is that investing in
20:16
the stock market is probably different how you would think about, you know, maybe when
20:20
it comes to property, you bet it and not make the investment, then make the investment.
20:23
When you easily get out in the stock market as well, you can literally press a button
20:27
and boom, done.
20:28
Whereas it's a lot probably.
20:29
Yeah.
20:30
And you can buy a fraction of a stock at the moment.
20:33
So my son's 15 and buys three times Amazon stocks and they're currently trading it around
20:41
five euros, 82.
20:45
And that's for a fraction of a stock that is a three times stocks.
20:49
Every movement it makes, it's multiplied by three.
20:52
Wow.
20:53
And he just trades those.
20:54
Yeah.
20:55
And he's three times like, yeah, exactly, they can do double the movements up or down.
20:59
Yeah.
21:00
Yeah.
21:01
No, they're ETFs.
21:02
You can do so.
21:03
So he does Amazon and Alibaba.
21:04
Oh, nice.
21:05
And yeah, can we talk about the fact your son is 15 and doing that?
21:08
Well, he's going to try to live early.
21:10
Sorry.
21:11
I don't care.
21:12
Because I probably came out of the worm.
21:13
I was like, I know a strong market.
21:14
And his father.
21:15
I want any step further.
21:16
Yeah.
21:17
Yeah.
21:18
My daughter can be market.
21:19
Oh gosh.
21:21
Oh gosh.
21:22
So I'm kind of intrigued to know throughout the process of building this epic property portfolio.
21:30
You must have had some either massive challenges or regrets or things you would have done
21:34
differently.
21:35
Had you had your time again?
21:36
Yeah, absolutely.
21:37
And I've had some pretty tough times and things that I probably can't talk about too
21:41
much because there are still ongoing legal challenges.
21:44
Oh, wow.
21:45
However, yeah.
21:46
I'm just going to do that.
21:47
And we'll just insert like the pink pen or something.
21:50
Like the wrong song made me not the wrong song.
21:53
Sure.
21:54
Yeah.
21:55
Yeah.
21:56
And the other thing that I regret and I think for me it was growing too quickly and taking
22:02
on too much and then working with people that I probably shouldn't have trusted and trusting
22:07
too much to them to grow.
22:09
And that was a big lesson and it was a hard knock when it came.
22:14
That came in about 2018 and this realization that I'd grown too big and things weren't
22:19
looking, things were looking precarious and I could potentially lose everything.
22:23
Fortunately, I didn't and I've been able to work my way out of them with the selling
22:26
down of the portfolio and stabilizing things.
22:29
But that was, it was tough and it was good lesson.
22:31
And so sorry, that was, that was you dealing with someone in particular, not necessarily
22:35
you taking on too much risk from in terms of the property market turning against you type
22:40
of thing.
22:41
Does that make sense?
22:42
Looking up from a business perspective too aren't you?
22:44
It's not necessarily your personal portfolio but actually your company.
22:47
Yeah, no exactly.
22:48
Yeah.
22:49
And it's a bit of both actually.
22:50
So it was the property market really changed in 2016.
22:54
We had the vote on Brexit.
22:55
We had changes to section 24 taxes on landlords and we also had the increased stamp duty on
23:05
second homes.
23:06
Oh, yeah.
23:07
So all of this happened in the mid 2016.
23:12
So it was a really difficult time.
23:13
It completely did what it was supposed to do, which was take the wind out of the sales
23:17
of the property market and stabilize it because before then it was ramping up and people
23:22
are making super normal returns on property.
23:24
Fortunately, I rode that wave up and then I was stuck with quite a lot of property in
23:29
2016.
23:31
So that's my point is just I wish that I'd stayed part of me.
23:35
Part of me thinks like it was a fantastic journey but part of me wishes that I'd stayed
23:39
true to what I was doing, which is buying amazing homes in East London and transforming
23:46
them into really amazing homes.
23:48
And that's what I did.
23:49
And I sold them to, I nearly had Ross from friends by one of them, he offered and I refused
23:55
his offer.
23:56
Why?
23:57
I was just taking it even if it's a story.
23:58
It's a shame.
23:59
And he turned up at the house and he was wearing a cap, shorts and a backpack.
24:04
And I just thought, oh my goodness, this is such a waste of time.
24:07
Who is this agent got coming around to my house?
24:09
And I was selling it for a warn you.
24:11
No, he didn't warn me.
24:12
He said, I've got someone coming and he wants to meet you.
24:15
He didn't warn me who it was.
24:16
Anyway, I got out of my car and I had my sunglasses on and I just, I said, oh hi, nice to meet
24:22
you.
24:23
Shook his hand and then just went, oh, it's Ross.
24:25
Did you say that?
24:26
No, and I didn't even, I couldn't even take my sunglasses off of, so just shocked.
24:31
He must have been it.
24:32
Oh my goodness.
24:33
Yeah, and he said, oh yeah, I really like your house and we're looking to buy and thanks
24:37
for the time looking around.
24:39
He looked around for about an hour while I sat in the car with the agent and his lawyer
24:44
then put forward an offer and it was around 200,000 less than my asking price.
24:50
And this was in 2016 and I rejected it.
24:53
And the lawyer had said, this is the only offer he will make and he will not be coming
24:57
back to the table.
24:58
And I just went, yeah, of course, they will say yes.
25:01
Exactly.
25:02
Nothing.
25:03
And then I went back to the lawyer and went, so, and he went, no, I told you, it was one
25:07
offer only and I went, oh, I'm going to start getting, getting, getting, getting.
25:11
I've got the letter still, yeah, actually, so I've got the actual physical letter from
25:15
the lawyer though.
25:16
So, yeah, I've still got that.
25:17
He can frame that.
25:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:19
Oh my gosh.
25:20
Another thing to end up at his like door of the explorer, I kind of, I'm like, I'm afraid.
25:24
Did he say hi?
25:25
I'm David.
25:26
Yeah, no, he did.
25:27
He said, hi, I'm David.
25:28
I'm here to, and he was just, yeah.
25:29
And I tried to act really cool.
25:31
Yeah, I do this other time.
25:32
Yeah.
25:33
I'm going to see a celebrity.
25:34
I'm going to see a celebrity this week.
25:35
Yeah.
25:36
Oh my gosh.
25:37
And also just a side note, your houses are absolutely beautiful.
25:40
Yes.
25:41
You're.
25:42
I think he wants to Google them.
25:43
Yeah.
25:44
And he wants in the market for a property.
25:45
I tell you what, this is a lovely, just amazing.
25:49
That one was lovely and I'd put a £40,000 kitchen in it.
25:53
And he said, the agent actually said to me, oh, yeah, his wife doesn't like the kitchen
25:56
and wants to rip it out.
25:57
And I'm thinking, oh, I'll take him back.
26:00
All of them are used to separate that like emotional attachment to a house.
26:04
Like, I can't even think about selling my house now, because I've gone through
26:07
and I've renovated it and everything.
26:09
And I'm just like, oh, gosh, the thought of like someone not liking what I've done to it
26:13
or wanting to rip out the kitchen.
26:15
Yeah.
26:16
I'm just like, oh, yeah.
26:17
Oh my gosh, that surprises me, actually.
26:18
Yeah.
26:19
Because you're always like, don't be emotional.
26:20
Don't fall in love with a stock.
26:22
Like, I know.
26:23
You fall in love with your house.
26:24
Yeah, you fall in love with the house, definitely.
26:25
Yeah.
26:26
Yeah, it is, it is tough.
26:27
Right now, I'm selling my family home in Hackney.
26:30
And it's on for quite a considerable sum.
26:34
And it was my family home.
26:36
It was where two of my children were born into.
26:39
They weren't born there.
26:40
But it's the only home that they really know.
26:43
And I hand sewed all the curtains with my mother.
26:48
And it's got 55 windows in it.
26:50
So it's significant.
26:51
So I'm really quite pleased at the moment, because the buyers come forward,
26:54
put forward an offer and said, actually, we want to buy
26:56
as he is curtains and everything.
26:58
It's okay.
26:59
It's lovely.
27:00
You could take it all.
27:01
And I just said, if they ever get binned, I want them.
27:04
I don't want them binned, but you can have my curtains.
27:06
I bit their beautiful curtains.
27:08
Yeah.
27:09
Very floral.
27:10
They're floral.
27:11
I love fans.
27:12
Kind of sound of music vibes.
27:13
Yeah.
27:14
It's a bit of binter.
27:15
Sorry.
27:16
You know, someone looking like they're making butter running down.
27:18
We don't actually make the kids drink.
27:20
Close out of the drink.
27:21
Thank you.
27:22
Sorry.
27:23
Yeah.
27:24
So sorry, you mentioned.
27:25
So just going back to when you mentioned, they wish you hadn't taken
27:27
as much risk or gone into business with certain people.
27:30
So how would someone starting a property portfolio from scratch,
27:34
kind of avoid those obstacles that you found?
27:38
Just take things slow.
27:40
And everyone knows the saying that life's a marathon or a sprint.
27:43
And I think we get so caught up in wanting to make these incredible returns
27:48
that we do take risks that are just too great.
27:51
And we risk losing it all.
27:53
And you can take risks and get great rewards.
27:56
But you can also take risks and lose things.
27:58
And it's stressful.
27:59
I love this.
28:00
Yeah.
28:01
You just got to think, do you really want to take that level of stress on?
28:04
Well, you might be like Elon Musk.
28:06
I'm reading his biography at the moment.
28:08
And he takes extraordinary risks.
28:10
And he gets extraordinary returns.
28:12
But the guy does not sleep.
28:14
He does not have a life.
28:15
He does not go on holidays.
28:16
And I found myself slipping into that where there was no off.
28:21
And it actually took me meeting a new partner five years ago.
28:27
And he was just saying, right, this is not living.
28:30
Or it is one form of living.
28:31
But is that really the life that you want to live?
28:34
Or do you want to go and explore the world and do other things?
28:38
Is that more what you would like to do?
28:40
And it was tough.
28:41
And I still sometimes go, maybe I do just want to go work all the time again.
28:45
But it's about pacing yourself.
28:48
And only taking the risk level on that you're prepared to take,
28:52
I think is the answer to that question.
28:54
But also, trust no one.
28:56
And I mean it.
28:58
Just writing all of them.
29:01
But no, I mean it.
29:02
Have documents for everything.
29:05
A contract.
29:06
Yeah.
29:07
I'm sorry.
29:08
No, that's going to be there.
29:09
I just saw a really big secret before we came into the vlog.
29:12
Just know what I mean by that is have contracts with everyone.
29:16
Even if it's your friend or your family member that you're going in,
29:19
by having that contract and by signing that contract,
29:23
it sets in writing the expectations for that relationship.
29:28
And that way, you can hopefully put it in a drawer or put in a drive
29:32
and never have to look at it again.
29:34
But it is.
29:35
Yes, exactly.
29:36
But you've set out what your expectations are for that relationship.
29:40
And that can be invaluable.
29:42
It's almost like pre-naps for absolutely.
29:45
And that's also quite good if you are doing business with friends or family.
29:49
It removes any question about what happens.
29:52
Questions, prizes, breakdowns and relationships.
29:55
All of that if it's all stipulated.
29:57
That's right.
29:58
And if you say you're going to do something,
30:00
absolutely make sure you do it.
30:01
If you're just saying you two invest together and so for your running the build.
30:06
And Victor is putting in the money.
30:08
Let's just say that.
30:09
If you say you're going to report to her every month on the 15th of every month
30:12
with an update on that, then you do it every six months.
30:17
I'm feeling emotional today.
30:19
I was not a joke for now.
30:22
Don't kick me around like that.
30:24
I can handle it, but I might not now.
30:27
Sorry.
30:29
I miss it.
30:30
Victor falls for us.
30:31
I'm feeling it.
30:32
But since he, so just,
30:33
you know, today would be a little healthier if I could take one.
30:35
And then she's just like kicking you away.
30:37
You're ripping into me.
30:38
Yeah, I know the feeling.
30:40
So for you, okay, I think that's invaluable.
30:42
That is very, very good.
30:44
Yeah, because we've done the prenup chat.
30:46
And it's very much around that.
30:47
I'm not between us, but I just for clarification.
30:50
But I think, you know, even for the curve in our business and shareholdings
30:54
and I think just having everything you're writing,
30:56
it's just dotting your eyes, crossing your teeth.
30:59
I would love to know.
31:01
It sounds as though you're incredibly passionate about work,
31:05
about investments, just in general.
31:07
Do you think that's driven by financial reward?
31:10
Is it driven by you actually enjoy the day today of the work?
31:14
Because getting to have a portfolio of what was the total
31:17
when you were at your age?
31:19
I think that's a huge amount of property.
31:22
And I know you're saying some of them were just a slice.
31:24
But have you sort of figured out what that key motivator is for you?
31:27
Yeah, it was definitely financial in the beginning.
31:30
And my mum was a nurse with four children.
31:33
And it was really tough growing up.
31:36
And I know everyone has these rags to riches stories.
31:38
But it was tough.
31:40
And from the time I was, I think, 12 years old,
31:45
all I wanted to do was make money.
31:47
And I was probably overly obsessed with it.
31:49
And my eldest son's the same.
31:50
And I worry about it a bit.
31:52
But the financial reward for me was a representation of the success.
31:58
And it was.
31:59
And I'm gradually changing my mindset,
32:01
because I'm not sure that's quite so healthy.
32:03
I think what's happened now is the creative sides come out.
32:09
And the overall outcome of the project brings me more pleasure
32:13
than the actual financial side,
32:15
which is why I have to be extra prudent on the financials.
32:17
Because I am more likely just to take on a project
32:20
because it will look good and be beautiful at the end.
32:23
And I get a great sense of pride in delivering what I think is a wonderful product.
32:28
When I think that there are property people out there who don't,
32:30
they just want to deliver a cheap product that's just fit for purpose,
32:35
whereas I want to surprise people with something that is really beautiful.
32:40
So it's a bit of both.
32:42
It is financial, but it's also this creative side of me that wants to deliver.
32:46
I guess as well, you mentioned your partner before
32:49
and reassessing how you want to spend your time
32:53
and what you consider to be success and quality of life.
32:58
It's really interesting when, whether it's a person, a book,
33:02
a life experience, challenges, how you've been living and prioritising,
33:07
do you feel more self-fulfillment pulling back
33:12
or do you feel kind of a sense of like, oh no, that's actually part of who I am
33:16
and I do miss it?
33:17
Yeah, there's a friction. There's definitely a friction
33:20
because part of me would love to get out there again
33:24
and just build this massive portfolio again and do all of that.
33:28
And that's part of me and the other side of me is actually
33:31
you've got a really good, really good life right now.
33:34
Why will you complicate things with that level of risk again?
33:38
And it is, it's a constant struggle.
33:40
So today, where am I?
33:42
Probably on the lifestyle side.
33:44
Yesterday I was definitely on the, let's just go out there and conquer the world.
33:48
Yeah.
33:49
And it's tough. I think once you're an entrepreneur,
33:52
you're always an entrepreneur and it's very hard to switch that off and say,
33:55
okay, I'm going to go and spend two months a year sailing
33:57
because I'm on that boat every summer when Paul and I do go sailing
34:01
and all I'm doing is thinking about business ideas
34:04
and I cannot switch it off.
34:06
And that is, it's loud in your head and it's hard to turn that off.
34:10
So it is a challenge. It's a friction and it's a daily journey
34:14
and a daily exercise in trying to talk myself down
34:19
into enjoying life as it comes in the experience.
34:23
Love what you just said about.
34:25
Once you've been an entrepreneur,
34:27
you kind of don't want to step away from it
34:29
because I definitely don't identify with the idea of feeling like
34:32
I was a born entrepreneur.
34:34
I never really wanted to be in business so badly
34:37
and be my own boss and have, you know, flexibility of time.
34:40
That was, it was never a dream of mine until the curve just naturally evolved.
34:45
And now I couldn't imagine doing anything else.
34:47
But I kind of don't like how a lot of massively famous CEOs talk about the idea
34:52
that you're either born that way or not
34:54
because I think, yeah, once you get a taste for it, it's super addictive.
34:58
And there can be terrible entrepreneurs
35:00
and there can be amazing entrepreneurs.
35:02
And it's like, I think if you have that passion and that drive
35:04
and the creativity to deliver a business,
35:08
yeah, I think that's what kind of makes you hungry for it and want to keep going
35:12
and that's when you constantly thinking of new ideas and that kind of thing.
35:15
But you also have to try and fail as well to figure out what's going to do well.
35:20
Sometimes comes without trying.
35:22
Yeah, exactly.
35:24
I thought it was really interesting before when you said your son who's 15
35:28
is quite obsessed with the idea of earning money.
35:30
I would love to know why that worries you
35:33
and how you're counteracting that
35:36
because I think a lot of parents think the opposite.
35:38
How can I get my kids interested in learning money or investing?
35:42
Yeah, it's tough because I grew up without any money.
35:44
I had this obsession to earn money.
35:47
And he's growing up a very comfortable life and doesn't have to worry.
35:51
And yet still he has this.
35:52
So it makes me think that maybe it's something more innate within him.
35:55
But what worries me is that, sorry, my son,
36:00
15, he doesn't want to go to university.
36:03
He wants to trade and invest for himself.
36:07
And that concerns me because I think there's a lot more
36:10
that you get out of university than just the degree and the education.
36:13
You get this whole life experience that I would like him to have.
36:18
And I just worry that sometimes he is forgoing social experiences
36:24
and other experiences because he's sitting at his computer trading.
36:28
But he's still very fit and active and still sees his friend.
36:32
But sometimes he's a little bit too obsessed with that.
36:36
Did you talk to him about trading in money early?
36:38
How did he land in a place where at 15 he's trading on his computer?
36:42
It's always been around him.
36:43
So his father has been an investment banker and an analyst.
36:48
So he's had that.
36:50
He's so poor.
36:51
My partner now is a financial advisor and has been for 30 years.
36:54
And I'm his mom.
36:56
I was a financial advisor.
36:58
I was the youngest ever in Australia to get my diploma of financial planning.
37:02
You're amazing.
37:03
Holy hell.
37:04
It was just obsessive.
37:07
Yeah, it's obsessive.
37:08
And that's, yeah, it's a good place for him to be.
37:11
But I do, I am concerned that perhaps he's sacrificing some of his life experiences
37:16
in the pursuit of money.
37:18
I'm going to have a minor opra moment here.
37:21
I'm really ready myself.
37:22
However, I really think I have faith in him.
37:25
He might trade until he's 25 and then he'll have some man or woman that steals his heart.
37:31
And you know, I don't think that he will.
37:34
I really think everybody in life gets to a point where they realize
37:37
or they make the decision, am I choosing to live the way I want?
37:41
Or am I choosing to have the money that I want or what makes me happy?
37:44
I think most people can, I agree.
37:47
But I also think that, yes, some people can definitely be like,
37:50
so hell-beent and driven on making money.
37:52
But I can turn into, like, not saying this is just a rule.
37:55
But like, it can be.
37:57
And I've seen, I've worked with a lot of people like that.
37:59
So will not sleep.
38:01
And because there's more money to be made.
38:03
You know, like, it's like an addiction or psychotic.
38:05
That's interesting.
38:06
Yeah, not saying.
38:07
But you know, like, it seems like I can see,
38:09
because it is kind of an extreme,
38:11
I don't know, competitiveness or interest rate.
38:14
Yeah.
38:15
But I'm keen to wrap this up with,
38:17
what would be your three key tips for someone, say myself,
38:23
wanting to get into building a property portfolio?
38:27
I think the first thing is location.
38:30
And finding out exactly where you want to invest.
38:33
And for me, I like investing where I live
38:36
because you just know that area.
38:38
And I know some people who live in London,
38:40
who invest in the Midlands and the North,
38:43
you don't know that area.
38:45
Or is I investing in stocks that you know and you understand?
38:47
Exactly.
38:48
Exactly.
38:49
So I think location.
38:50
The second thing is how are you going to finance that?
38:53
And that might be through savings.
38:55
It might be through borrowing from friends and family,
38:58
which is a whole other podcast topic that we could talk about.
39:01
You can borrow from a bank,
39:03
but it's just how you're going to finance that
39:05
and being very realistic with the budget.
39:07
And then it's your exit.
39:09
What will your exit be?
39:10
And it's like starting any company.
39:12
What will your exit be?
39:13
Is there something that you'll just do until you die?
39:15
Or is there something that you do want to exit?
39:17
And there are multiple paths to exit.
39:19
The most known is renting out and becoming a landlord,
39:24
which is something I really don't enjoy.
39:26
Or you can flip, which is I think the best option.
39:30
So it's just about being very clear on those three things.
39:33
Where?
39:34
How?
39:35
And what are you going to do in order to get out of it?
39:37
Wow, that's great.
39:38
Love that.
39:39
Yeah.
39:40
I just find that interesting because I think there's most people
39:42
that will still be trying to buy a first house.
39:45
I guess like the whole financing side of it.
39:48
Is it easier to start building a portfolio once you have one?
39:52
Because I think for a lot of people the idea even buying one house is scary.
39:55
They're alone having 108.
39:58
So I mean, is it just like starting small?
40:01
Yeah, no, absolutely.
40:02
And it is about starting small.
40:04
And it's about getting your confidence with one first
40:07
and then perhaps dipping your toe into the waters and taking on another one.
40:11
But just educate yourself.
40:13
You can't, you can never be too educated on this.
40:17
Of course you can get analysis paralysis.
40:19
But most of the time you were really benefit from educating yourself,
40:23
learning about every aspect of the property industry and back testing,
40:27
having a look at what properties have actually sold for
40:31
and seeing what your inputs would have been
40:35
and what you would have purchased that property for
40:37
and testing out your hypotheses, for example.
40:40
So yeah, just education and knowledge.
40:43
And I'll let know if you would like to join our property course.
40:46
I'm like, that couldn't have been a bit of a secret.
40:49
If you do want to learn about how, if you haven't bought a home yet
40:53
and you're wanting to buy a house,
40:55
we have the home by his handbook, which is coming up
40:58
with starting on the 1st of November.
41:00
So if you are interested in investing in property,
41:03
then you might want to have a look and find out the details
41:05
we'll put them in the show notes.
41:07
But thank you so much, Nicole.
41:09
Thank you.
41:10
Like such an eloquent speaker as well.
41:12
I can really take some tips of talking.
41:14
I can really come in a G for such a high stress job
41:17
and to have so much on the line financially,
41:20
time wise, everything.
41:22
You have a really calm demeanor.
41:24
I don't know if it would have been the same when you're at the peak
41:26
of your stress with her.
41:27
She's like, are you yesterday?
41:28
Yesterday was hot today.
41:29
Should have seen me this morning.
41:31
No, thank you for sharing all of your knowledge.
41:33
And I feel like everybody is listening.
41:35
We'll have learnt so much from you.
41:37
Thank you.
41:38
Thanks for coming on.
41:39
I appreciate it.
41:40
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
41:43
These conversations are designed to teach you everything that you need
41:46
to know to be better with your money.
41:48
From saving, to investing, to talking to your friends about your salaries.
41:52
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
41:54
If you could hit the subscribe button, please.
41:56
Please press better yet.
41:57
Leave a review.
41:58
It'll only take five seconds.
42:00
And it would really make our week.
42:02
Oh yeah, our month.
42:03
Okay.
42:04
Lots of love. See you soon. Bye.