Latest / Skin Anarchy / Q&A with dual board certified dermatologist, Dr. Aegean Chan, M.D.

Transcript

Q&A with dual board certified dermatologist, Dr. Aegean Chan, M.D. · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is brought to you by Bonnet.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Your business needs more than an 800 number.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: With Bonnet Voice API, you can provide the call experience your customers expect and get the data your customers.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: From call analytics and virtual assistants to automatic speech recognition and text to speech in multiple languages.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Your customer service teams can help more people in more places.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And with Inapp Voice, your customers can easily contact you the moment they have a question.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Take your calls to the next level with Vonage Voice API.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Learn more at Vonage.com.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_05: This is our second episode of season two, and we are so excited to have Dr.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_05: Aegean Chan.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_05: She is a dual board certified dermatologist, and she also has her certification in uh dermatolog pathology.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: Dermatology pathology, Dr.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_05: Chan.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_05: Could you could you tell us about yourself?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: Because I I'm gonna butcher it.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So um I guess I'll just start at the very beginning.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so um I'm Chinese American, but I was born in Hong Kong, and my parents brought me here when I was one.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in a suburb outside of LA.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've always been interested in medicine.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I even brought an artificial heart valve for show and tell in the first grade.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I've always been a nerd.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that was kind of my path from the very beginning.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: I loved science and biology, and then being able to pair that with being able to care for people on the altruistic side of medicine um really was what drew me in.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to UCLA for an undergrad degree in biology, and then I went up to New York for medical school at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um definitely fulfilling the Asian American stereotype.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was the first fam person in my family to become a physician, actually.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and throughout that path, you know, ever since I was probably 12, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be a pediatrician.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I loved kids, I loved the idea of being the person to care for kids.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I did a rotation in dermatology during medical school, and I just really fell in love with the breadth and depth of dermatology as a specialty.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So skin disease is really fascinating.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So on social media, you may just, you know, especially if people are just, you know, casually following dermatologists, you may just seem, it may just seem like dermatologists just know about products, acne, hyperpigmentation, and wrinkles.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: But dermatology is really um broad, and the biology and the pathophysiology of the skin is really incredible.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, actually, my favorite area of Durham, which I don't really talk about online, is the infectious diseases of the skin.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've actually done some global health work in Botswana where they have really incredible presentations of infectious diseases and other things that we don't really get to see that often here.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really my passion is that that area of medical dermatology.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what also drew me to dermatology is the ability to partner with your patients because patients can actually see their disease.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're treating someone for high blood pressure or diabetes, it's really abstract.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: They don't really understand some sometimes it's really hard to get your patients to really buy into the treatment plan because they don't see what's going on.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in dermatology, um, their patients are really into their treatment plan because they can see their progress right in front of their eyes.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I really enjoy that aspect of it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in addition, like derms do a lot of procedures and surgeries.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that in one day I can treat skin infections, rashes medically, and I can also surgically remove and cure skin cancer, and I can do aesthetics, like do chemical peels or filler and botox.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So having that mix is really, really interesting for me.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I did my dermatology residency also in the Bronx at a program affiliated with my medical school, and um I during that time I surprisingly found that I have a love for pathology, um, which I didn't think I would.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that led me to pursue additional fellowship training in dermatopathology.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you're close in pronounce pronouncing it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a long word.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So dermatopathology specifically is the study of the pathology of the skin.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So when a dermatologist says, Oh, that looks funny, um, I'm not sure what it is, let me take a biopsy and send that off to get a diagnosis.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they take that little piece of tissue, put it in a bottle, that gets sent to a lab and mounted on a slide.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then another physician trained in dermatopathology, like me, um, looks at that slide underneath the microscope and based on the features that we see microscopically in the tissue, then render a diagnosis.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that gets sent back to your doctor that says, Oh, okay, then it's uh a basal cell carcinoma, another type of skin cancer, and then helps them determine treatment from there.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I love as a practicing clinician and a pathologist, it allows me to connect what I see on the skin clinically with what's happening on a microscopic level.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_05: You're kind of like a go-to all-in-one kind of person then, because you really do see it, you know, you see the the phenotype on the skin surface, and then you can see it, you know, under a microscope as well.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_05: So you really know what's going on.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_05: That's amazing.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it really helps me guide treatment too.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll look at my own specimens.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if I see a rash from a patient, I'm not sure what it is, and I look at it under the microscope, I see what sort of cells microscopically are contributing to this rash.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So then I know, okay, well, this I can kind of tailor my treatment based on exactly what I see under the microscope.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it really, I think it helps me give better care to my patients as well.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So of course, yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um so now I practice clinical dermatology and dermatopathology in Santa Barbara, California, and I also do um some teaching of dermatopathology to dermatology residents.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: Basically, that is very impressive.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_05: Very impressive resume.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_05: I will say that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_05: That's amazing.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_05: So um, one of my biggest questions, see for Heen and I, I think when we started our podcast, we wanted to get people on here that um they're the leaders of dermatology, such as yourself, you know, dermatologists, plastic surgeons, people who have studied the medicine, they've, you know, really they you guys understand, you know what I mean?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_05: Like what's going on.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_05: And um what's interesting to me, um, and I'm sure for Heen could agree with this, is that what is your personal take on skincare?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_05: And do you do you have a skincare journey where you, you know, at a young age discovered skincare products and you wanted to test it out?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_05: And maybe that I don't know if it fed into your you know pursuit of dermatology as your career path.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_05: But um, is there such a thing?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: Did you have a skincare journey?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, definitely.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I, you know, as in high school, I was a beauty skincare product junkie.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I love makeup, I love skincare.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when Sephora first opened.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in my mid-30s.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if you guys remember when it first opened, it was really novel, right?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was yeah, it was really exciting, and I just remember loving going to the mall.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I spent hours just browsing the shelves, trying things on, trying to finagle free samples from the people that worked there.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um they charge, I don't I don't want to interrupt, but you know they charge for samples now.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_05: What?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's crazy.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_05: I know I could say truck, but yeah, because the last time before um COVID when I went in, I was like, um, Foreign, I don't know if you did this, but like I went in and I wanted like a sample of a mask, and the lady was like, okay, now I'm gonna give you a sample.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_05: I have to scan it, I have to, you know, all this stuff.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, I wonder how they started charging at Sephora for samples.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: When did they have it?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: How much did she want to charge you for it?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: It was like five dollars for my sample.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: What?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, I might as well buy the whole box and return.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, exactly.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: This didn't work for me.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Please take it back.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Right, but please continue.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: I introduce YouTube.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's okay.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you for that update.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think now sampling in the time of COVID is, you know, kind of a strange practice, anyways, but yeah, um, so, anyways, I would spend a lot of time doing that, reading magazines, reading stuff online, and I just really love the ritual of it of makeup and skincare.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I also had acne as a teenager.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent a lot of time troubleshooting what worked, what didn't work.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did all the spot treatments, clay mask.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not proud to admit it, but I used Seabreeze toner.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um just, you know, the stuff that came in the mouth.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I did too.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I really like dried out everything on my face.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think I took prenatal vitamins to try to help grow my hair longer.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I tried everything.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: You really, you went in.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: You went in.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: I did.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: I bought in.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I even thought about getting aesthetician training, you know, between high school and college.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I really just have this love of it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this that may be why I kind of gravitated towards dermatology in the first place.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I really I I see where people come from when they're product junkies, you know, because I understand that love of the product.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the more I learned about the biology of the skin, the more I advanced in my training.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the more products I tried, frankly, the more I realized how much overlap there is in products, and that my skin was not necessarily better when I used more products.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's this kind of diminishing return.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I started dermatology residency, um, I really started to target what I used for my skincare, and I started to see better results with less products.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the difference was that I was trying to use products that had really effective ingredients like retinoids and alpha hydroxy acids.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I would just use that, and then I really converted to just using drugstore stuff.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just saw, you know, and you know, as being somebody in the industry, we I do get a lot of products that I get to try without having to pay for it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I really nothing really stuck.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I use it for a couple days and then put it in a drawer.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is a sign that it's not really something I necessarily need to use.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that that's really when I became um a skincare minimalist, and um really am of the mind that you can have really great skin and not have to spend a lot of money at Sephora on over-the-counter topical products.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_05: So what like I'm just curious.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_05: So, right now, what is your routine?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_05: Like if you know, your AM and PM routine, what what do you do um on a daily basis?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so in the morning I just use a gentle non-medicated cleanser.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think right now um I have the skin fix, um, they have like an oil-based filming cleanser.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I just swipe that on my face.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I put some days when I'm feeling up to it, I'll use a little azolec acid.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I have the ordinary um azolec acid serum, which is really just like a creamy texture.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um again, I'm very lazy.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I just like put a dab of that and I mix it with some cetophyll cream, the one in the jar that you're technically supposed to use for your body.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to be on the drier side because I use retinoids, because I use AHAs.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um I find that that moisturizer retains the moisture on my skin more than any other high-end moisturizer I've tried.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've you know, I don't get that flakiness halfway through the day.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: My skin stays moisturized.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I just use that, and then I'll use if I'm feeling fancy, I'll use my NARS tinted moisturizer.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of my makeup routine.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't use any foundation.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that also has sunscreen in it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it has an SPF 30.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm not really going outside very much, um, you know, just kind of going into the office, that's what I'll put on.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in the evening, I will use um a medicated cleanser, like a 2% salicylic acid.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think right now I have like just Neutrogena.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um I love that you just brought up Neutrogena because I remember that was a huge thing.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_05: I'm in my 30s as well.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_05: We're both on for you and I.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember when Neutrogena was this big thing.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_05: It was like, if you have acne, use Neutrogena.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, you know, I think they've done a pretty good job.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, just kind of forging ahead in terms of not trying to reinvent the wheel too much.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they just have classic products that work that are good at our at a good price point.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_04: I love them.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I you could use any brand salicylic acid wash, but you know, I I like theirs.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's affordable.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would buy it at the drugstore, you know, even if I didn't get free samples every once in a while.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: If I run out, I still go to the drugstore and buy it myself.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that to me is a sign that like is a good product that I'll use.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when I get out of the shower, I what do I use at night?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I was pregnant, I had a 5% lactic acid serum from the ordinary that I would use um on a nightly basis.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Before I was pregnant, I would use my retinoid and then a moisturizer on top, set of fill cream, and that's it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then once a week I'll do a higher percentage AHA peel.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I was using the Pixie Glow Pads because it's affordable and it's a 20% glycolic acid.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, this is great.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend it to a lot of my patients that um are dealing with acne because it's just a great affordable product with a high percentage glycolic.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the ordinary also has a 30% AHA BHA peel product.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love that product.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_05: I know because that's the red one.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Stings, yes, it it works.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: It works really well.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'll do that once a week.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just leave it on for about 10-15 minutes and rinse it off and put moisturizer on top.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really very basic.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of product just sitting in drawers.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but I'm just too lazy to use it, to be honest.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: So, really, you are, yeah, you are practicing the minimalist approach then with your skincare.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_05: And I I've been seeing that more and more, you know.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um so, like, you know, just on Instagram and in general, I think people are kind of coming to the same conclusion.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I don't know if you guys agree, but I, you know, there's like people who are like, I have my moisturizer and I have my peel and I have my, you know, and it's just it's nice to see that.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_05: And I love that you said the ordinary because that brand I feel like has gotten so much, you know, like controversy, but I love their price points, you know.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_05: So it's so cool that you use that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, for me, it's honestly it comes down to price point, like a good product at a good price point.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like really it kills me when people spend a lot of money on topical over-the-counter products.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you could spend hundreds.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know people that spend thousands of dollars.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_05: Thousands, yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so easy to do.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the definition of something that's sold over-the-counter non-prescription, and that's not an over-the-counter drug, is that it cannot alter the biology or structure of the skin.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if you consider that, then those kinds they all go in the same bucket for me.
• 16:01
  unknown: Right.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you can either go lowbrow or highbrow, but they all pretty much do the same thing.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: But again, there's that ritual aspect of skincare that I fully acknowledge.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can be utilitarian, but if like opening that heavy glass jar with like the gold top and dipping your hand into this moisturizer with the little spatula for your face.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if that makes you like feel really good and is like rejuvenating in a form of self-care for yourself, like I by all means go for it.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: But my whole what bothers me is when people believe that they have to spend that higher dollar amount to have good skin.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas, like, if you know that like I'm buying this because it's a luxury item, you know, like you could use like a five-dollar tote bag or you could have a Louis Vuitton bag, you know, you're buying the designer brand because it's a luxury item for you, not because it does a better job at holding objects.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's on the label, you're you're buying the label.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_05: That's really right.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's how I feel about like over-the-counter skincare products.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really try to educate people on that in social media, you know, like think about your budget.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: How much do you have to spend?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Don't feel pressured to overspend on topical things.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_05: So is that, and I mean, that kind of leads us to our next question for you is is that kind of one of the driving forces behind why you started your social media account?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_05: Because I've noticed that recently uh more germs are really coming onto social media, especially Instagram.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_05: And you guys are I I love seeing that because you're giving real information, you're trained professionals.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: So just tell us a little bit about what led you to that, what led you to opening a social media account and your webpage.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_05: And um, by the way, it's it's beautiful.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_05: I checked it out.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, thank you so much.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so actually, this happened, this started a while ago.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So during my fourth year of medical school, there's a little gap before you start your in-hospital internship training and graduation.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I really didn't know what to do with myself, and I found that I was fielding a lot of questions about skincare for people.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: They knew I was going into dermatology, they knew that I loved products, so I'm a good person to ask because likely I've tried it before.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So people would ask me the same questions, and I had a friend that said, Well, you keep, you know, doing the say telling people the same thing, why don't you put it on a blog?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was when tumblers were big.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a tumbler and I started writing about it because my friend was like, Well, your friends and family are wanting to know about these things.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you think other people are gonna want to know what you think about this stuff?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started doing that, it got some traction.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I was I think I was on refinery 2930 under 30 in New York that year.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot of fun, and I found people were really interested in that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, like during my dermatology training, um I just did not have time to keep up with it.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So last year, after I finished all my training, I actually had a little bit more time.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I started an Instagram account and relaunched my website, and you know, again, got a really good response because I think people are really hungry for unbiased sources of information.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if you, you know, read the magazines, like those are all ads, essentially.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've it's exactly it's all marketing.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so people really like to hear refreshing, you know, source from somebody who understands the science, who, you know, who takes care of patients, you know, somebody who, you know, somebody that just likes products and tries it on themselves and reviews products, that's great.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: That works for that person.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're that that's their opinion.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not trying to discount like influencers' opinions, but I think people like it that I I treat patients, you know, I've treated hundreds of patients, I've seen patients with lots of different skin types, different skin colors, different reactions to different products.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that gives an extra level of depth and legitimacy to what people are reading online.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, I've I find that um I've gained a lot from the community as well.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, through the EcoWell and Dr.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Ginza and all these people that are scientists, chemists, physicians, aestheticians, and just people that are interested in skincare and science have created this really awesome collaborative community.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, again, my expertise is clinical medicine and pathology.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the two things I do, but I don't claim to know about uh for cosmetic formulation and product formulation, you know, but it does come up in my practice.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, patients ask me about product ingredients and things like that.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, it's made me a better doctor.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned so much from the community of scientists and chemists, um, that you know, I feel like I'm able to talk about this stuff um in in more of a knowledgeable fashion.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know that sometimes that, you know, there are germs that come off as more authoritative on certain subjects that might not be their expertise.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's been some kind of blowback on that.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think that if everybody just comes to the table saying, you know, I don't know everything, it's impossible for me to know everything.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like medical school trains you to say, I don't know.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, exactly.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, if you're a scientist or medicine, you realize how much we don't know.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny because patients always ask me, like, no matter what disease they have, they're like, Why is this happening to me?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, that is a very philosophical question.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_05: Let me uh wrap.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Reference Emmanuel Kant to that one.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's this impression that we that scientists and physicians are all knowing.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: But we know that like there's a new study that practices are going to change.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're always finding out new information that changes what we're doing.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's the I mean, it's very humbling.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very humbling.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_05: I bet.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I bet.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, I know that the literature, um, so you know, going onto PubMed, looking up dermatological papers, I know there's a lot of upcoming, emerging research.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_05: And um that kind of leads me to ask you how you feel about skincare on Instagram.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: Because I personally, you know, this just one of my opinions, but I think it's really leading to some scientific push where people are now feeling, you know, researchers are feeling the need to start talking about some of these ingredients.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_05: Like, you know, what is what is um, I don't know, I mean any ingredient, like an AHA or BHA.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_05: And then they'll say, I've been noticing a lot more papers pop up.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't know if that's me just seeing that or is that really the truth?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, but how do you feel about skincare as it is on Instagram?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_05: Like the way it's being portrayed.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that there are different silos.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first started on Instagram, it the algorithm just kind of points you to the skinfluencer product review area, you know, and um, you know, again, not that there's not value in it, but it kind of it's like one note.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I found that my feed was just filling up with people's opinions about certain products.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And as somebody who's not as into product, you know, like I like trying them myself, but you know, again, I feel like that's just one piece of of having great skin and um the aesthetics of skin.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: But so there's that silo, and then it wasn't until I found Jen at the EcoWell and then this whole kind of burgeoning community of scientists, you know, um, Michelle at Lab Muffin.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I could go on, you know, all these people, but it's just um I think that that community has really been um doing a wonderful job at educating um the layperson, the consumer, on what to look for.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that does push brands.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen that, you know, brands to actually um explain what their ingredients do to put percentages on products.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been seeing that more, definitely.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of research, I haven't noticed that big of an uptick.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you might be more updated on that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that would be awesome to do more research.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that a lot of the uh topical over-the-counter, like actives research is done by companies that are pro uh producing products.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_05: How does that feel?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_05: Like as a medical professional, how does that make you because doesn't for it would bother me, you know what I mean?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like if if my field was being, you know, kind of m monetized on like that, you know, it's just like yeah, I mean, it's a very complex topic, and I think dermatology does get a bad rep.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that we have a bad reputation um in medicine, even as being, you know, the kind of superficial specialty that we just treat acne, you know, like the term Dr.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Pimplepopper.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think she's a very good dermat, I think Sandrali is a very good dermatologist, but I think that the term Dr.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Pimple Popper denotes it kind of diminishes what we do as physicians.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it does.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_05: There's so much to it.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_05: There's so much to dermatology.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much to dermatology.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I think that that the fact that it crosses that aesthetics line where products are being used on the skin, there's that overlap, I think kind of poisons the well a little bit to kind of the quote unquote purity of the medicine side of dermatology.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think I've I've lost track.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um that was my fault.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_05: I took you off on that.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but so I do feel that you know, these sponsored studies, you know, I do think that it's valuable, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, you you want to have some data points when you're suggesting to when patient asks you, should I be using vitamin C or should I be using niacinamide?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think a lot of these newer actives is mostly these small kind of case studies.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it is helpful to have these small studies, but it's not as robust as those big studies done with the retinoids back in the day when they were developing them, you know, double-blind placebo-controlled studies.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's kind of hard for me to hang my hat on those types of ingredients because I feel like a lot of the data that's out there is just anic data.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, personal experiences, small group data.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I really would like to see more kind of head-to-head comparison studies, you know, vitamin C versus a retinoid versus placebo.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's set of vitamin C versus placebo.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: That is such a great point.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because that doesn't mimic real life.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is that it costs a lot of money to do that type of research.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so who's gonna fund that research?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: The companies that have a financial interest in selling products with these ingredients.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a catch-22.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it it's hard.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's I think you know, with the increasing interest of the consumer, there I think that there's definitely more of an incentive for companies to do larger, more robust studies.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_05: That makes sense.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you gotta get the funding from somewhere.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm giving it to them, so you know.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean they barely have funding for like research on things that can save lives.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, cancer.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_05: So I wanted to ask you one more question, and then Farheen has a bunch of questions for you from RGB.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, wait, wait for before we before Ecta, before you answer or ask your question, I have one question kind of piggybacking off of the previous question.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Chan, previously you said that you uh you know, get tons of products, companies kind of reach out to you, send your products.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: How do you, as a dermatologist, manage that relationship with brands?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And how does it affect your kind of um, you know, portrayal of products even on Instagram or you talking about those products just generally?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um I actually wrote a post about it recently just about bias and medicine and skincare.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um in medical school and in residency, we do learn a lot about bias from pharmaceutical companies.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, physicians are a big gateway for pharmaceutical companies as well as companies that produce products, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So they want to get their products in our hands, hoping that we will um endorse it and people will buy it.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like the OG influencer strategy, right?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that the best thing to do is really for me to understand the bias that comes with that.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say that I don't have a bias if somebody gives me something for free.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I'm the first to admit that you know there's a bias attached to that.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I try to disclose that um when I'm talking to patients, you know, in general, as a general rule, like I don't really review products on my Instagram.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes I'll mention certain products that I buy myself, that I use, that I like, um, but it's only just a handful of products.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I uh product reviews aren't really a big part of my um Instagram presence.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how I manage the social media aspect of it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then in terms of my patient care, you know, honestly in my practice, I mostly practice medical dermatology.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um visits are about 15 to 20 minutes, and mostly it's just focused on figuring out what's going on with the patient and trying to get them a prescription medication that will help them.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, thinking about which prescription medication to prescribe that plays into it.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So do you do brand name or generics?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: As my personal preference, I always do generics when I can.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are certain classes of medications where there's only one brand name version that tends to work well for patients, and you know, I'll kind of walk them through the different treatment options based on cost and effectiveness, etc.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then um I was having an exchange with um Ronella on Instagram just about how we do get a lot of free products at conferences.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So Neutrogena, Acetophil, they do court the dermatologists, and that's probably why a lot of dermatologists recommend their products.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, I won't say that I'm not biased because of that, but at the same time, of the products available at the drugstore, they're very well formulated and they're at a good price point, um, affordable for more most patients.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of why that's the rationale between behind me kind of you saying those brands out loud and saying that I use those.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I hope that answers that question.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's a really complex issue.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: We could do a whole podcast about it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um we can.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know Eska and I have personally struggled with that.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I'll give you, I mean, I'm I have a law background, so my day-to-day job is being a business lawyer.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: So coming not from a medical um dermatology background, anything even remotely related to medicine, companies send me tons of product, and it's it became even difficult for me, knowing the repercussions, to really manage that relationship.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, I just started cutting ties one by one because I felt like the pressure was just insurmountable at some point.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because, like big companies will, I mean, I'm I'm a pretty small account, I'm around 5,000 followers, and when they'll send me products, they'll send me almost their entire line, and yeah, you almost feel like an obligation to say something positive because they've taken time out of their day to send you, you know,$200 worth of product or whatever the case may be.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it became incredibly complicated for me to just navigate that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's really difficult.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so then the social media platforms are kind of flooded with positive reviews, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody wants to write negative reviews.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because it seems like a you know, kind of a slap in the face.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then then the consumer is like, oh, well, all these products seem really great.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I should just buy all of them, you know?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it kind of muddies the water.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why for me personally, I don't really like to do product reviews specifically, because I find that, you know, my stance is that most of these products are the same, and it's really personal preference for the most part.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one person may love a product and another person may not.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, you're two people are listening to the same song.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: One person may be totally loving it and jamming out to it, and then this other person may not, you know, be enjoying it.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's right, yeah, you know, but I think that it's good that there now there's, you know, the regulations around having to say that it's an ad or that it was a PR gifted product.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So at least, you know, as a consumer, I know okay, this person has that bias because this was free.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you went to the store and bought that whole line yourself, you would be much more honest, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have no obligation to the company.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, I completely agree.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_05: I think that was a that's a great question because I I know that people are getting so many products, like Varheen said, like there is just, it's insane how many companies are out there now, second cure companies that just and you know, it's like what you said, Dr.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_05: Shannon, it's it's becoming redundant in a way because everybody's got a hyaluronic acid, everybody's got an AHA BHA product, you know.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's nothing, um there's no innovation almost, it feels like anymore.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, to so to get all of these products and then have an opinion about them, I think that's where personally I get confused because I'm like, how can you have an opinion if you have no medical training or background to have an opinion?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's a personal opinion, you know.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like I think it's like the lady at the store, you know, telling you, Oh, I've I've used this, this is really great, you know?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I kind of think of it.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there are a lot of great products out there, but it doesn't mean you have to buy every single one, it doesn't mean you have to have a fridge in your bathroom packed with glass.
• 35:11
  unknown: Yes.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: I saw I saw a reel, uh, it was a satire on that whole concept of a mini fridge where this influencer had um bought a full-size fridge and she thought our skincare person is just all skincare in her giant fridge.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Very serious about their skin.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Very serious about their skin.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_05: By the way, just as a tangent question, does that make a difference?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_05: Like cooling like certain products?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_05: It doesn't.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_05: I I would think it doesn't, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I the one thing is I think that bathrooms generally get a little steamy and tend to be a little bit warmer than the rest of your house.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So between that constant condensation, moisture, and a higher temperature, I think that can shorten the life of certain products.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it probably helps with that.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, if products feel better when they're cold, you know.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not a chemist, so I don't it probably does help with the stability of things like uh vitamin C, um, certain probiotics, which is a whole I did a post on this, but like we don't even know how stable probiotics are, and you're putting preservatives in your product and you're adding probiotics, so yeah, I don't know.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like there's a lot of pseudoscience and things people kind of state as fact when there's often not that much evidence to back it up.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, there's definitely a manufactured need for a refrigerator, but I think for the most part, if you have a well-formulated product, um, you don't necessarily need to.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a couple of over the prescription medications that used to have to you had to put in the fridge.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was a combination, I think it was a benzyl peroxide erythromycin product.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um benzamycin, people used to prescribe it a lot.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you would have to store that in the fridge.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: For general everyday, I don't think so.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to find it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have room for a full-size fridge in my bathroom anyway.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_05: You know what, guys?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_05: After this, I'm gonna go get one of those like freezers that you open the top, and I'm just gonna pause.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, meat freezer, yes.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure some people have enough like PR product that they could fill a meat freezer with it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_04: I do.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_04: I do too.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: I had to take, I had to like take myself off of PR list because things would just show up at my door, and my husband would be like, How are you getting?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was getting PR almost every single day at one point, and we had to move.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just a night, it was a real eye-opening experience for me.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, how I don't have enough lifetimes to use this much product.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe some freezer on wheels is what you need, then.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: I need the it's I mean, that's Christmas.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's Christmas Mother's Day and birthdays.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just found myself gifting them to other people in my life that really enjoy skincare.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's actually brilliant.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think after saying this, no one's gonna be sending anything anymore, which is fine.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but at dermatology conferences, I don't know if you guys have heard this from other dermatologists, um, but they um have like a huge expo.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And dermatologists, I mean, people show up with giant roly suitcases.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like huge roly suitcases filled with product, just filled with product.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_05: You know what this reminds me of is that those back street, like the trunk stores, yes, people's cars.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you open up the trunk.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I could.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: I literally like leaving a dermatology conference, I have to check a bag, and it's just a suitcase filled with product, and I don't ever use it all, I always give it all away.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's it's crazy.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you can do it.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_05: What are you gonna do with all of that stuff?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's I know, yeah.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so funny to see like dermatologists that like make a fairly good living, like standing in line for like a ten dollar Neutrogeno skincare, like face wash, you know.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I'm like, I'll just go to the drugstore.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_05: Like I'm a different level of cheapness.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, because you can't you can't resist when something's free.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, like it's it's hard to resist.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_05: So, um, so okay, I want to move on to the second segment of this because we do have so many questions for you from our from our listeners, and people were really well, they are really excited that you agreed to come on to our podcast.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_05: So um thank you again, by the way.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_05: Of course, thank you for having me.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_05: This has been a lot of fun so far.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so I think for Heen, um, you have the list of questions.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_05: Would you like to just you know go down that list and let's see what okay?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, Dr.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Chan, the first question is Are comatogenic products always bad for you?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically, you know, we see a lot of demonization of certain products such as petrolatum and coconut oil, and I'll see various Instagram posts about this from various people of different backgrounds.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on that?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, communogenicity is really relative.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, something that may cause comodones or um closed whiteheads.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just basically an accumulation of dead skin cells and debris.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the product somehow is blocking your um skin's ability to shed the dense skin cells and debris from your pore.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you have this retained essentially white head.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: So comadones are either closed or open.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: So an open comadone is a blackhead where that keratin is oxidized, and a closed comadone is is those white heads.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like uh they're essentially just again packed in debris in your pores.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: So they used to test that on rabbit ears.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they would assess for comedicity, and um and that's how they would write on the product non-cometogenic.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: However, um, some things that are labeled non-cometogenic may be cometogenic on somebody, so it's not an absolute designation.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when I learned that, I found that that was really interesting.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: So some patients would say, I'm breaking, I have all these white heads on my forehead, I'm using this product that says non-cometogenic.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I'd say, Oh, you're the unlucky few that this product is making you is clogging up your pores.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but and as a general rule, non-commetogenic products um do reduce the the amount that your skin, your your pores get clogged up.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then in terms of petrolatum, you know, petrolatum really gets a bad wrap.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think it's as communogenic as people say.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you're fairly oily and you're prone to blackhead and whiteheads, things that are occlusive, so mineral oils, um, oils in general, um, and things that can kind of create a barrier over your skin, not allowing that debris to um come out of your pores, um, you know, you should generally try to avoid those types of products.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, again, with social media, there's a lot of absolutes that you see.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people that are, you know, self-proclaimed skin experts, you know, everybody's skin is different.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so what might may cause somebody to break out may not cause somebody else to break out.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Vaseline is a very, very good product for use in the winter.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you have very, very dry skin, dry chapped lips, um, it really does help create a barrier on top of your skin and allows your skin to retain water and to help repair itself because sometimes your skin needs that extra help.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm trying to think of a good analogy.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but basically it becomes very porous, um, the immune system can be activated, that's why you get that inflammation.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where eczema comes from.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you need to help your skin out so that it can heal itself.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there are certain situations where Vaseline or other occlusive type um products can be very, very helpful.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: But again, if you're acne prone, you're very greasy, you don't need Be using occlusive type products, your skin is already really well moisturized.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so if you're using that, then you'll probably break out.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's very interesting.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_05: Because is Vaseline, like I'm just I'm just gonna ask this one question is Vaseline then occlusive?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: It is okay, it is occlusive to a degree.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but so again, if somebody's acne prone, you know, I wouldn't recommend using Vaseline as your moisturizer.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: But if somebody has eczema and it's the dead of winter and your skin is chapped and you have flaky skin, it's dry and it's irritated, you know, putting a thin layer, you know, wetting your skin a little bit and putting a thin layer of Vaseline on, it's like putting a band-aid on a cut.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: It just helps it heal.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Got it, got it.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: So the next question: what would you say is the one product that everybody needs in their skincare collection or skincare routine?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very difficult question.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I will say that probably the best thing that you need is a sunscreen you'll actually use.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I will say that it's hard to find a really nicely formulated sunscreen in the drugstore.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're gonna splurge on something and there's not a drugstore sunscreen that you like, it may be worth spending a little bit more on a really nice sunscreen that you will use every single day.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why is because a lot of the things that we that people talk about to use, you know, like retinoids, vitamin C, vitamin E, um AHAs, a lot of that is used to correct sun damage.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can keep your skin pristine, you know, starting from a very young age and you're religious about using sunscreen, you won't really need to use those other products until later on in life.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I think a really, really good sunscreen, um, one that you'll actually use is the best thing.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: But if I had a second thing, it would be a retinoid.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great multitasker because it helps with acne, improves your skin texture, helps with photo aging and fine lines.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: So speaking about sunscreen, um I I noticed recently, maybe in the last year or so, there's been a huge push towards uh one sunscreen use, which I love, second, reapplication and just almost a cult like like just shoving this message into people that you should be reapplying every two mu two hours, etc.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Coincidentally, at the same time, there has been a huge release of different types of sunscreen.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it makes me question.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so my question to you is how often should you be reapplying sunscreen?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: And is two hours really the uh gold standard in reapplication?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: So gold two hours is generally the standard in what we tell patients, um, but you should really be applying it more often if you're sweating or going into the water.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're wearing a water-resistant um sunscreen, it should stay on your skin.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it usually has the amount of time that it's tested for, so it's usually 80 minutes.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you're sweating a lot or you're coming out of the water, you should reapply because there's going to be some that does rinse off.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what's not talked about enough is actually making sure you're putting on enough sunscreen.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people just slap it on and they think, oh, I'm I'm good.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you really need to be putting on a thick enough layer to be getting that adequate protection.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: So SPF is um the way they test SPF in the lab is using um two grams per centimeter square, which is a real is a is a really dense amount of sunscreen.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what that's equivalent to is two finger lengths per body area or a shot glass full of sunscreen.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever I talk to my patients about sun protection, it's not just about using sunscreen, you have to make sure you're putting on enough.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, whole new meaning to shot glasses, I feel like.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes, it's a lot of sunscreen.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you go a whole summer without going through a tube of sunscreen, you're not using enough.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I like the two finger lengths rule because it's easier to measure out.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's two finger lengths for the face and neck, um, each arm, the front of the body, back of the arm body, front of the leg, and back of the leg.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also, you know, people talk a lot about sunscreen, but not enough people talk about other sun protective measures.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: So avoiding midday sun so trying to do stuff before 10 a.m.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: and after 4 p.m., rocking those big hats and sun protective clothing.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're gonna be on a long bike ride or on a long run, you know, you're not gonna want to stop and reapply sunscreen.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of great UPF sun protective clothing that's been tested to block out UV rays, and it's it's user-friendly, right?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you have kids or again, you're active, you're going out of the water, you know, you don't have to think about reapplying.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're wearing a shirt that's protecting you.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm seeing a lot more people wearing actually the long sleeve bathing suits.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those are really cute, by the way.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they made like I think the market is meeting that need because there's a lot more companies making stuff that actually looks good.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think it's become more socially acceptable to wear long sleeves and cover your skin when you're out enjoying the beach.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, a lot an area that people really neglect, um, that people regret later on in life is the um chest and the back of the hands.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: So people are obsessed with talking about putting sunscreen on your face.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you have a face, you're 50, your face looks like you're still 30, but your your chest and your back of your hands have a lot of sun damage.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a cute look.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to remind people like you should be aggressively using sunscreen on your chest and your back of your hands as well as your face.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_05: I'm willing to bet and you will thank me.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'm willing to bet you guys somebody's gonna come out with a product that is sunscreen for your hands.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_05: I'm really like, I'm just gonna go.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we should do it.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: We should do it on the market.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I'd buy it.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: If it if it was a good product that boisturized my really dry hands and provided sun protection, I'm all for it.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you there's some hand creams that have sunscreen, but it's very they're like marketed more towards like the older demographic.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: So the next question is are there any UE filters that dark skin tones should avoid?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure you guys heard this before, but um, the mineral sunscreen, so zinc and titanium dioxide only sunscreens, um, tend to not blend into dark skin as well.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: So tend to leave that kind of white ghostly cast.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you guys have tried out some PR samples of some sunscreens that you're like, oh no, yeah, I look like a ghost.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is not gonna work.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are certain brands that either do a mix of mineral sunscreen with chemical sunscreens, um, or they use more uh smaller particles that are able to blend in better.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I find that Lta MD has some really good mineral-only sunscreens that tend to blend in better on dark skin.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, if you have darker skin, um chemical or inorganic sunscreens are just cosmetically more appealing, they're easier to rub in.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to spend five minutes trying to rub in your sunscreen so you don't look like a ghost.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, sure.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you feel like there is a difference between a chemical and a physical sunscreen for the purposes of sun protection?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're both proven to be effective if they're formulated correctly and with the right density.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not a proponent of the DIY at-home mineral sunscreens.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, I think if you're using them at with an at an appropriate density and using at least an SPF 30, although there's a lot of studies that are showing now because people are putting on in just regular use a lower density than how they're tested, you do get better protection if you use a higher SPF.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you use a SPF 100 versus a 30, you're gonna burn less.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's actually a study that actually demonstrated that because most people again put on about 25% of the sunscreen you should be putting on.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I would say that you know it's really more personal preference.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: We could have a whole podcast that talks about all the new research.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm sure you guys are aware that there have been some studies that show there's substantiabs of you know the oxybenzones.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's no demonstrable data to show that that absorption actually causes lasting harm in your body.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of things that we absorb that get excreted that are fairly harmless.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they're doing more studies, um, but we do know that UV exposure causes uh damage to your skin and can leave lead to skin cancer.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that risk is well established.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so to the scientists, we don't have enough data to say don't use it.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Some people have a personal preference where they say, Well, I don't want to roll the dice and risk it.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see more data before using some of these chemical sunscreens.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a personal preference.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's nothing to show that that it's dangerous to use chemical sunscreens.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think it's it's so interesting you bring that up about the absorption because I think my my opinion is that people want to take those kind of things, like that kind of data, and then completely negate the entire purpose of a product.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, you know, there's always gonna be side effects, like you said.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_05: There's always gonna be other things happening, you know, but it's like the degree to which it's happening is I don't think that's that's published correctly, to be honest with you.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_05: Or or or the the information isn't distributed correctly.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_05: Because, you know, I've heard some people say uh sunscreen causes cancer.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, I mean, and that's that's kind that's the whole, you know, the people that also demonize parabens um and sulfates, you know, it's more about dose, it's about dose and formulation and things that are sold on the market as an over-the-counter drug, which sunscreens are, they have to go through rigorous testing, um, they have to be approved by the FDA.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think that there's a lot of fear-mongering around that, that's not based on solid evidence or data.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so most products that are sold, like in the drugstore or at Sephora, are demonstrably safe.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_05: That's good for our listeners to know and for me also.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes, yeah.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've definitely heard that.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: And as a, you know, that that sunscreen causes cancer, and people would rather not go, they would rather go without it, um, which I don't know where we exposure causes cancer.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: We need exposure.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's confusing out there.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you don't have access to the right information and you hear all of these scary things from all different um sources, you don't know which to trust.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that happens on Instagram a lot.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just random posts will pop up on my feed and it'll have the most questionable information.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I know it's questionable because it just doesn't make any sense logically, but I, as a regular consumer, I don't know where to go to find the information that either confirms or negates that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a big problem, and I think that that's an issue that um the group of scientists on Instagram are really trying to address.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I feel like Jen from the EcoWell, um, Andrea Hardy, um, she's a uh dietitian, they're really spearheading this kind of science communication and trying to educate the lay person on how to know if someone's an expert, where to find your sources.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody is absolute, they're not giving you references, you know, you should question that claim that they're making, you know, and it's okay to kind of message them and be like, oh, where did you get this data?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, can I can I get some background information?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will say, as a dermatologist, the American Academy of Dermatology has a really wonderful area of the website that is accessible to anybody.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: So any questions about sunscreen or any questions really that are dermatology related, they have really good posts that are easy to read, reason easy to understand, and that is a trustworthy source.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, big academic institutions like the Mayo Clinic generally are trustworthy sources as well.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I've tried to post on my Instagram, you know, websites that I use and websites that I like.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: And again, um ECTA brought up PubMed, you know, go straight to the source.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can Google sunscreen and cancer in PubMed, and you know, you probably won't find any studies that make that conclusion.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more about being able to educate, I think getting to a wider audience the tools that you can use to be able to kind of sort out misinformation, and I think which is a problem in general in our society, right?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like the algorithms, you're gonna be served the same stuff, you know, if you follow a lot of quote unquote wellness accounts.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like a lot of like these accounts do tend to send out these absolutist statements that are it's just based in fear mongering.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I think it's if people don't understand the the the word the verbiage is what I'm trying to say, you know, of a lot of stuff.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_05: And I for me, I know for heen, you're you mentioned like you know, she's cutting out all the PR and you know the excess, really.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_05: And from from my end, I always felt like I would go on to PubMed, read a paper.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_05: I also have a science background, so I would be able to read that paper, understand it.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_05: But then I was like, well, what about layman terms?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_05: Because doctors are trained to, I mean, you know, say, hey, this is the problem, but let me put it in layman terms for you.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_05: And that whole aspect of explaining to people, you know what I mean, is just it's absent.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's just gone.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_05: Or it's being misused in a way for marketing, you know what I mean?
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, as somebody who has a science background, you know that everything needs to be read in context, right?
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: So just because you have one paper where the abstract, the conclusion of the abstract is very absolute, yeah, but you may know in the context of the greater body of evidence and my own clinical experience, this is not a relevant conclusion right now, you know, based on the sample size, the way the study was conducted, you know, like that that conclusion is just based on the author's opinion.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, this again, this is a whole nother conversation.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Which by the way, we can now beg you to come back on.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would love to.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are enjoying.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's you really it's hard to take it into context.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, giving people the tools to do their own research, I think is empowering and I think is a good thing.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I think also having enough voices out there of people that have the relevant background experience and training to be able to interpret those studies for people.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: And again, with the science communication piece and social media becoming more socially acceptable and not just a thing that teenagers do, I think that major institutions are now trying to become relevant and have more of a presence on these platforms.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's gonna be slow, but I think ultimately reputable academic institutions need to pay physicians and scientists to be science communicators, to translate these findings, because otherwise the market's gonna be flooded with people like Dr.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oz and people that, you know, kind of charlatans that are using evidence and data, you know, skewing it for their own personal or commercial interests, you know.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: We need to fund experts, like true experts to communicate to the lay person.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_05: I've always thought about this idea, and I just want to see what you guys think is like, you know, all of these companies, because I, you know, there's a lot of actually really good companies with a good set of ethics behind them, you know, like morals and ethics in terms of, you know, I've heard from their PR people, like we're really not trying to sell people crap.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_05: But it's like I always wonder why don't you take a fraction of your earnings, put it into a private account that is kind of like a funding source and say, hey, you know what?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_05: You're the leading um, you know, PI on I don't know, like photo aging or something like that.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_05: And just give them anonymously money so that it can be, it can go through the right avenue.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_05: Like just like the the real research can be done without someone having an axe over their neck saying, Hey, you better publish what we need you to publish so that we can sell more of our product.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know why there's not a more collaborative effort on the part of these companies saying, No, we wanna we wanna promote dermatological research and we want to promote this, you know what I mean?
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_05: Like the sharing of facts.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, Ekha, there is a lot of profit to be made with misinformation.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly, exactly.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: I know and that's that's pretty much you know the the standard for everything.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people will profit off of misinformation in every aspect of our lives.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why it's so important these days to even just have a presence on social media if you have any kind of um background in whatever you're doing.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and before I felt like dermatologists really penetrated the Instagram space, all we had were people with free time who just they just took over that you know vacuum and started saying things and started grabbing that um that pedestal of being an expert when they really had nothing to back it up.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: And now we have major, major, you know, people with no background in science claiming that they're skincare experts with no background in science, dermatology, don't have an esthetician's license, but they're being, you know, backed by companies and they're being sponsored because those influencers don't have enough background to know that the information that they're getting from those companies is bad science.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: So they'll just they're just a parrot at the end of the day.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I see, you know, every week there's a different Instagram fight, right?
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, between between an influencer, and then now the scientists I feel like are becoming more vocal and addressing misinformation on the platform.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you can tell when somebody doesn't have the relevant background because they'll just block, they'll just they engage in a thoughtful conversation, and they're not even open to hearing the data, to hearing why what they might be saying may be harmful.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's really troubling because these people have huge platforms, yeah, huge platforms are so aggressive in their misinformation, it just blows my mind.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the confidence, they say it with their whole test.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, definitely.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_05: I know for those that should have confidence are, you know, like this is I'm just gonna say this, you know, Dr.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_05: Shan.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_05: I know that when you as a physician back anything up, there's a million people watching you and saying, Well, you better, you know what I mean?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_05: How can I get her?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_05: How can I sue this person?
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_05: How can I sue this doctor or for misinformation or whatever?
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that is the biggest hunk of BS because you know, the real experts here are being almost silenced and oppressed in a way, in a weird way, you know what I mean?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_05: And then you've got these people, like you said, with these huge platforms just you know, propagating notes.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as a physician, like I have to be really careful what I say, you know, because I can't really give personal medical advice, you know.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's reserved for people that come see me in my office.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's something called malpractice and farheen, I'm sure you because you don't want to accidentally establish a doctor patient relationship.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just it's a very tricky area, and but it's very frustrating when you see somebody that doesn't have any formal training or background giving m essentially medical advice.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Advice, right?
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: To somebody else advising people on what they should and shouldn't do.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and it's been really refreshing to see, you know, because there's like some very popular chemists, right?
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: That that will sometimes take it upon themselves to give clinical advice.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I'm like, well, well, you don't really treat patients, you know.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_05: So it's kind of a slippery slope for them.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_05: It is.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: And but I mean, there's also plenty of chemists that know, you know, my expertise is in formulation and products, you know, and I know these other physicians on the platform.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask them.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's how you know, if we build a big enough collaborative platform, hopefully we can drown out, you know, some of the the nonsense.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: The nonsense.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: It will be a fight, it will be a fight.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's I honestly have been very naive to the financial, all the financials behind all of that, the influencer culture.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's all driven by by extremely large sums of money.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's it's really tricky.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or just clout.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, clout is so um, it really drives a lot of people to back products in companies that they normally would not, because it means a lot when a company sends you a product, especially if you're you know, uh early on in your you know, Instagram career or you want to make it a career, you know, you have to have some of these products and these PR relationships to give you a little uh bit of uh boost, yeah, boost and credibility to get those bigger projects.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a it is very difficult.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I even I I I said I even, but I severely underestimated how much um how to navigate those politics of having an account and getting paid and making it a career.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not trying to make it a career, but it, you know, even well, it's a side hustle, you know what I mean?
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's like not really.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, not I mean, honestly, I think I went down the rabbit hole and I had to really like be honest with myself and sit down and be like, do I even want to do this?
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: And right no, I don't.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's so I mean, I think like it's a multifactorial, right?
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: When someone's courting you, you're flattered.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you want to say yes, as women, we're more likely to say yes to things.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're afraid of saying no, you know.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, it's true.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I struggle with the same thing too.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get emails, and you know, I really have to stop and think, is this something that is appropriate for me to be doing?
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is this does this push science, medicine, you know, advising consumer?
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Does that push it forward?
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is this true to what I want to be doing?
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why am I doing this?
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you know, I think I'm fortunate enough that I have a job that I that you know, I don't really need to be getting financial support from doing this.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's tough, yeah.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I understand like you want to get paid.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is a tough economy now, especially with the pandemic.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand the the financial pressures of it, you know.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_05: But you know, I think I think for me, as coming, you know, from the scientific standpoint of there is this level of integrity that cannot be compromised with any any field of science, you know what I mean?
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_05: So so when like for me, my account was originally a review account.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I was reviewing products and and whatnot, and I never actually none of that was PR, it was stuff I bought, you know what I mean?
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_05: So there were thousands of dollars to be targeted.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's so good of you.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_05: That's like a charity for many people.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_05: So I you know, I ended up switching because I was realized kind of, you know, I'm a person of science sitting here speaking about something that there is absolutely no scientific data on right now.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_05: So I was like, you know what, I need to switch my account because I can't, I cannot review something I know don't chemically know about.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_05: There's nothing on top of my edit, there's nothing available.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_05: How can I tell you, especially not being a dermatologist, that this is gonna work for you?
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_05: So it was just it's it's just such an ethical and moral, like, I think, dilemma for a lot of people too, you know?
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_05: Like I don't want to discredit everybody out there who's posting, you know what I mean, about um not that we are by the way, but like as posting about skincare.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_05: I just want to say that there's still people out there with a lot of scientific integrity, you know, they don't want to overstep that boundary kind of thing.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, I it was when I first started on social media, it was really hard for me.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, just seeing all those review accounts.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just kind of felt like there wasn't a place for me.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and the information that I was wanting to share with people.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, is this all there is?
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do people just care about hearing about product reviews?
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, but I just kind of kept at it and eventually kind of stumbled on this community.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it looks like I've just seen in the past year this just increased interest in just learning about the science behind the skin, science behind certain ingredients, and it's really refreshing.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think hopefully, you know, people as this battle against misinformation keeps going, people are going to want to be more empowered to have the information themselves.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I don't know how people will necessarily build a career.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they might, I I don't know how what it's gonna look like, but hopefully it'll move, you know, this whole skincare bubble from reviews to actual science and education.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that would be really exciting to see.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's our hope as well.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_05: And that's actually one of the big reasons I know when Farheen and I started Skincare Anarchy, we were we were kind of on that same conversation of God, we gotta cut through all of this stuff.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_05: Like we gotta somehow find a way to cut through the nonsense and give people the real facts.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, people like yourself, such as yourself, are just such an asset to the our podcast because we are able to ask you directly, you know.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_05: So, but um, I don't, you know, I don't want to cut this short because it has been such a pleasure speaking to you.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, truly.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_05: Um but and I hope that you will join us again for another episode.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, this is a lot of fun.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's really nice to um to chat with you guys and you know, virtually meet you, I guess.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but yes, um I would be happy to come back on.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was really, really nice.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for inviting me.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you guys for listening.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_05: Um let us know what you think about our podcast or this episode, and we will have more coming up.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much, Dr.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_05: Chan.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_01: You too.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_06: In Northern Virginia, you can make your future better because we've made college better with over 100 certificate and degree programs that prepare you for in-demand jobs by making tuition affordable and manageable through smaller payments over time with classes that fit your schedule.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_06: Northern Virginia Community College.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_06: We're the affordable, achievable, incredible college.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_06: Nova.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_06: We make college better.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_06: Apply now at boldly nova.com.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_05: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_05: Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_05: We are available on so many different platforms.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_05: So wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_05: You will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_05: This way, you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors, all the wonderful people that we host.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_05: And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_05: Also, make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_05: We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_05: We also have a blog on Medium.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_05: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_05: And it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_05: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_05: So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.