Latest / Speaking of Meaning / Women, Work, and Belonging: Navigating Identity, Leadership, and Life After 50 | Leslie Traub

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Women, Work, and Belonging: Navigating Identity, Leadership, and Life After 50 | Leslie Traub · Speaking of Meaning

0:02
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Speaking of Meaning,
0:04
SPEAKER_01: the podcast that helps you become a stronger communicator,
0:08
SPEAKER_01: build deeper relationships and create impact that matters.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ibrahim.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: This podcast is about better communication,
0:17
SPEAKER_01: greater impact at work, in your home and in the world out there.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by Leslie Trau.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Leslie has been leading transformational,
0:39
SPEAKER_01: organizational, personal and spiritual development programs for more than 40 years.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Her work has been very meaningful.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: It has provided the basis for her rewiring work she does today with women over 50.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Leslie
1:02
SPEAKER_01: It's good to have you here today.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ibrahim.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: It's my pleasure.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Leslie, you have a lot of experience.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about your mission and how your mission has changed throughout the years.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, beautiful.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: I love that question to start with.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: My mission.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: My story is that I began my career as a Peace Corps volunteer in Togo,
1:29
SPEAKER_00: West Africa, which is where I had my very first experience leading a group at 21.
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SPEAKER_00: I had to design a three-month training program for new volunteers.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: And that was my sliding door moment,
1:43
SPEAKER_00: as I say, into the world of group process and group facilitation.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: My career then took me into the world of organization development,
1:53
SPEAKER_00: diversity, equity, and inclusion, and leadership and management development.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: The happiest moments of my career were working with women,
2:05
SPEAKER_00: coaching executive women,
2:07
SPEAKER_00: working with groups of women,
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SPEAKER_00: and probably the best piece
2:10
SPEAKER_00: of work I think I'd ever done was bringing together white women and women of color
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SPEAKER_00: for two days and unpacking that which stands between us.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And I've continued that mission through today, working with women over 50.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: What have you discovered?
2:30
SPEAKER_01: What stands between women of color and white women?
2:35
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't expecting to talk about that, but it's our stories.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: It's the stories that we've been told and that we tell ourselves,
2:45
SPEAKER_00: our projections,
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SPEAKER_00: and the realities of the different lived experiences that we have between us,
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SPEAKER_00: and not really fully grasping
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SPEAKER_00: that these are not individual paths in terms of our growth and development,
3:03
SPEAKER_00: but the pathways are intrinsically evolved or involved with our identities.
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SPEAKER_00: And so for us to navigate our own relationship across ethnicity,
3:17
SPEAKER_00: we have to understand our own stories and our own path and be curious about that
3:23
SPEAKER_00: of other women.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: And to take responsibility for when we have privilege and we can impact the journeys
3:31
SPEAKER_00: of other women through our allyship and sponsorship and support Is it easy
3:38
SPEAKER_01: to be blinded by your own privilege?
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely I think that not a lot of people can really understand the privilege
3:52
SPEAKER_00: The impact of privilege,
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SPEAKER_00: and that's by definition the word privilege,
3:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to understand that I might have advantages
4:00
SPEAKER_00: that other women don't simply by having light-colored skin.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: And whatever other privileges I may have of great education and knowing people
4:12
SPEAKER_00: in workplaces that know me,
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SPEAKER_00: who can sponsor and support me, that's all expression of privilege.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: And so you've worked with women now and you still work with women.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: And what I know is that you work with women over 50.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: And so can you tell me what work are you doing to support women over 50 and why?
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: I believe that women over 50 have particularly...
4:52
SPEAKER_00: challenging couple of decades where there's lots of change in our lives.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: There's changes in our family.
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SPEAKER_00: If women have had children,
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SPEAKER_00: this is often a time when we have the experience of being an empty nester.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: There are changes if our parents are alive to
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SPEAKER_00: their well-beings and,
5:14
SPEAKER_00: you know, when our parents get into their 80s and 90s, their needs change.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: It is frequently the purview of the daughter or even the daughter-in-law to take on
5:25
SPEAKER_00: the care of the parents.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: There are many people,
5:29
SPEAKER_00: many women in particular,
5:30
SPEAKER_00: who wake up to the fact that their 25
5:34
SPEAKER_00: or 35-year marriages may actually not be serving them at this point in life and
5:39
SPEAKER_00: then were faced with
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SPEAKER_00: what it is to navigate life as a single woman.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the sandwich generation is real.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, we may have young children and take care of parents, so there's a lot happening.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think underneath that is the longing that we feel at this age
6:03
SPEAKER_00: to be more aligned with our soul's path.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: than with whatever it is we've spent our life doing that really built our ego.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, ego building happens in the first part of life.
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SPEAKER_00: We put the tent poles up so that we know who we are.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think as we move into 50s and older,
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SPEAKER_00: then the longing for unpacking that and
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SPEAKER_00: to ask ourselves what is real is also what's present at this time of life.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's a transition too.
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SPEAKER_01: And how do you support them?
6:42
SPEAKER_00: So I run workshops for women,
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SPEAKER_00: weekend workshops for women over 50 And I invite us because I'm always part of it,
6:51
SPEAKER_00: right?
6:51
SPEAKER_00: So I'm there doing my own work just as somebody is sitting next to me doing her work
6:58
SPEAKER_00: I invite us to look at the trajectory of our lives and to identify the values,
7:07
SPEAKER_00: guiding principles and beliefs that we've put in place in the structure of our lives
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SPEAKER_00: and to look at how many of them were constructed to ensure our survival as opposed
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SPEAKER_00: to them representing an essential part of ourselves.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: I found that those get conflated.
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SPEAKER_00: We think that my skill in rescuing others,
7:35
SPEAKER_00: in being a people pleaser,
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SPEAKER_00: in taking on work that's not mine,
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SPEAKER_00: that we have some belief system that we're not authentic,
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SPEAKER_00: we're not real,
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SPEAKER_00: that we're making stuff up to be acceptable and to receive external validation.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: When we can look at the values and beliefs and guiding principles that we've put
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SPEAKER_00: in place when we get to this age,
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SPEAKER_00: we can then begin the process of identifying that which no longer serves us
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SPEAKER_00: as we create the future for ourselves.
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SPEAKER_00: It's really important work at this time of life to begin shedding beliefs
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SPEAKER_00: about ourselves that we thought were real but in fact are constructs of survival.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: What I hear you say, Leslie,
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SPEAKER_01: is that you work to help people change their own beliefs about themselves,
8:36
SPEAKER_01: their self-concept.
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SPEAKER_01: Is that accurate?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: I help women unpack beliefs about themselves that do not serve them in this time
8:48
SPEAKER_00: of life and to help them develop their inner authority
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SPEAKER_00: And what happens at this time of life is that our inner authority grows at
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SPEAKER_00: the same time as external validation shrinks.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Right?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Because when you've got women,
9:06
SPEAKER_00: late career,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, people aren't coming to us for fresh ideas or new projects or...
9:16
SPEAKER_00: opportunities to grow because I think there's a belief system about women of our age
9:22
SPEAKER_00: that we're not generative.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: And so you can see that there's this,
9:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: as our inner authority and our wisdom increase,
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SPEAKER_00: the recognition of the value of that decreases in the workplace at the same time.
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SPEAKER_00: And so as women are contemplating their
9:42
SPEAKER_00: If I move out of the workplace,
9:45
SPEAKER_00: I can help them recontextualize their gifts in a way that really supports them for
9:53
SPEAKER_00: the rest of their lives.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Why do you think their value is not appreciated in the workplace?
10:05
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that there is bias about women of our age that,
10:09
SPEAKER_00: like I said,
10:10
SPEAKER_00: that we're not generative,
10:12
SPEAKER_00: we're less adaptive,
10:13
SPEAKER_00: that we've got fewer technical skills,
10:18
SPEAKER_00: that we're not ambitious, and that we're past our prime Mm-hmm
10:23
SPEAKER_00: These are all well-seated in our cultures,
10:28
SPEAKER_00: and it gets acted out by decisions that leaders make about us.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: And in a more pernicious way,
10:39
SPEAKER_00: we also can begin to believe that about ourselves because the narrative is so
10:44
SPEAKER_00: in our common culture.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: So over time you start to internalize those biases out there.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: No question about that.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: In every place there's bias,
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SPEAKER_00: we can internalize that and believe that it's true unless we have the resilience and
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SPEAKER_00: the self-concept to know that all of this is projection from some other story
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SPEAKER_00: and doesn't belong to us.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: But it's hard to really have that kind of resilience if we haven't done the personal
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SPEAKER_00: and maybe spiritual development work to know who we really are and to know the value
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SPEAKER_00: that we have in the world.
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SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Wisdom comes from the wounds that we've experienced and how we've learned,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: what we've learned about ourselves from those difficult moments in our life,
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SPEAKER_00: whether it was in our childhood or in our workplace.
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SPEAKER_00: There's always moments of stretching and growing.
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SPEAKER_00: And if we don't lean into those opportunities, we don't get the benefit of it.
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SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: I guess it takes self-awareness to be flexible and aware of when you are going
13:05
SPEAKER_01: through some hard times and learning to actually take a step back
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SPEAKER_01: and see what can I learn from this?
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SPEAKER_01: How can I grow?
13:12
SPEAKER_01: How is this benefiting me?
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Because I think And you told me this yesterday That a lot of people
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SPEAKER_01: For instance See their job,
13:24
SPEAKER_01: their title They confuse that with their identity And so once they lose that job
13:30
SPEAKER_01: That title They don't know who they are anymore That's correct We get very attached
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SPEAKER_00: to identity And identity is really what happens In the first half of life
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SPEAKER_00: The ego has to do the work where the world tells us who we are,
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SPEAKER_00: through our positions,
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SPEAKER_00: through who we work for and with, and the opportunities that come our way.
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SPEAKER_00: That's all how we know who we are, and there's a point at which that is no longer relevant.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: One of the interesting things that I've seen is that I'm sure you
14:11
SPEAKER_00: and your listeners are familiar that in the US,
14:14
SPEAKER_00: there have been many,
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SPEAKER_00: many jobs in the last years that have ended,
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SPEAKER_00: mostly in the federal government,
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SPEAKER_00: but in many of the businesses that support the federal government,
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SPEAKER_00: hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs.
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SPEAKER_00: And what I have seen with those with whom I've worked,
14:32
SPEAKER_00: which is a handful, right,
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SPEAKER_00: it's not 100,000 people,
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SPEAKER_00: that that handful has used the opportunity of the loss of their job to reflect on
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SPEAKER_00: the big questions in life.
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SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: What's important to me?
14:49
SPEAKER_00: What is the source of my joy?
14:52
SPEAKER_00: And...
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SPEAKER_00: Probably my most senior and accomplished women who I've worked with in
15:01
SPEAKER_00: the last year have all decided to step away from the workplace because they found
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SPEAKER_00: the parts of themselves that they really value and that were not valued in
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SPEAKER_00: the workplace and on top of the difficulty of trying to find a job at 58
15:22
SPEAKER_00: or 62 years old.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: Not easy.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: And if they didn't need those jobs for financial security,
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SPEAKER_00: then they had a choice to go out into the world and find their full self-expression
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SPEAKER_00: and find their joy and their purpose,
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SPEAKER_00: or to fit themselves into a box inside an organization if they were lucky enough
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SPEAKER_00: to find a job.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: occasionally people do find the work,
15:51
SPEAKER_00: the professional work that really lifts them up.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And has them be fully self-expressed and appreciated for their gifts.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: It's rare, but it can happen.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of people who don't feel seen, heard, valued in the workplace.
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SPEAKER_00: I think that it's epidemic, Ibrahim.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: I do and I think it's more epidemic for women and people of color than it is
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SPEAKER_00: for whoever's in the majority culture whatever country you're in
16:25
SPEAKER_00: because it's really hard to try to fit in to somebody else's world and
16:32
SPEAKER_00: to adapt whatever behaviors get you acknowledgement and kudos and to be at home
16:40
SPEAKER_00: with yourself it's very difficult
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Because you don't feel safe being yourself at work.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Because there's not a lot of invitation for you to be who you are.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: And when you are self-expressed, there's a lot of messages that come back to you.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, don't interrupt me in a meeting.
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SPEAKER_00: Or wait until I invite you to speak.
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SPEAKER_00: Or...
17:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't like how you talk,
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SPEAKER_00: you're speaking too loudly or the micro messages that come back to us in
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SPEAKER_00: the workplace are profound and pernicious and they're all designed to have us fit
17:26
SPEAKER_00: into somebody else's world in which they are more comfortable.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: I guess people who belong to different minority groups
17:43
SPEAKER_01: are aware of those micro signals.
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SPEAKER_01: They pick them up whether consciously or unconsciously.
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SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Because they want to fit in.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: You learn how to be successful if you want to work in a particular world.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: In the dominant cultural world, you learn the rules, the norms.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, interestingly, I was in a two-week workshop.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: I just came back two weeks ago.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And it was a group I had never been with.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: And I was very attentive to the norms and unwritten rules of how this group of people operated.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: And what I know to be true is that as an outsider that I had to adapt to those rules
18:32
SPEAKER_00: and guidelines to be acceptable and accepted in that group.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Very conscious and aware of that.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've had decades of training on how to decode culture in a group.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: And I was the only person who had not worked with the facilitator.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Other people have been with her for decades.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
18:53
SPEAKER_00: whether we're conscious of it or not,
18:56
SPEAKER_00: this is how we do it And I gave up parts of myself,
19:00
SPEAKER_00: by the way,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: to belong in that community Were you a participant or were you leading that?
19:10
SPEAKER_00: I was a participant It was one of the first times I'd put myself in
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SPEAKER_00: a participant seat for a while, so it was very good for me
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Very good for me to be on the other side.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And it was a good reminder of what we have to do to belong in whatever group we're
19:31
SPEAKER_00: in, whether it's my workplace or my new family, if I have a partner.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: or a community group or whatever,
19:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:40
SPEAKER_00: that there's always, no matter who we are, there's always the decoding to see.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think people who are in the non-dominant groups have much greater capacity
19:54
SPEAKER_00: to decode than people who are in the dominant group.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Because when you're in the dominant group, you don't have to.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: Because it's all you Right?
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah It's your standards, your norms You're part of it 100% The interesting thing is that
20:18
SPEAKER_01: I think if leaders and organizations understand that if people feel
20:24
SPEAKER_01: that they belong,
20:26
SPEAKER_01: that they are safe,
20:27
SPEAKER_01: that they can bring their whole selves to work,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: they're actually going to perform much better because they don't have to pretend
20:39
SPEAKER_01: they don't have to cover things about themselves.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: They can just be themselves.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: They're probably going to perform better and probably have better careers as well.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: No question about it.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: We've been talking about that for decades in the diversity, equity,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: and belonging world,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: that when you're in a position of power,
21:01
SPEAKER_00: that you make decisions that impact the lives and careers of other people.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: that you have an obligation to,
21:10
SPEAKER_00: if you want the best from your workplace,
21:13
SPEAKER_00: to create environments of what we call psychological safety,
21:18
SPEAKER_00: where people can bring as close to their whole selves to work as possible.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: There is a Zen koan, which is that air is to birds as water is to fish as we are to ourselves.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: And so if we can't see the water that we swim in,
21:43
SPEAKER_00: then we can't see how other people have to adapt to swim in our water.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And so it's really incumbent on people who are in decision-making authority
21:57
SPEAKER_00: in organizations to really understand culture and belonging
22:03
SPEAKER_00: and what creates psychological safety so that his or her employees can contribute
22:11
SPEAKER_00: the most that they're able to.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: That's powerful.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that bias really negatively impacts women's ability to bring all
22:28
SPEAKER_00: of our gifts because we self-modulate.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Because the words I was looking for before was imposter syndrome, by the way.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Imposter syndrome, yeah.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Imposter syndrome.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: So we self-modulate because there is something about us that actually believes
22:47
SPEAKER_00: that we don't belong.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: And so we develop all these compensatory skills to belong more and which is
22:57
SPEAKER_00: the double bind that women find themselves in.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: To belong more I have to bring forward more of my masculine and I need
23:06
SPEAKER_00: to press down my feminine because my workplace doesn't appreciate
23:12
SPEAKER_00: the more feminine aspects of leadership and so I have to become something
23:17
SPEAKER_00: that I'm not.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: which costs tremendously in our lives and our ability to work in
23:25
SPEAKER_00: a more relaxed flow state because we're having to adapt constantly to norms
23:32
SPEAKER_00: that are not integral to who we are.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: That's going to be exhausting to constantly
23:45
SPEAKER_01: needing to prove that you are good enough over and over again.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's exhausting, right?
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's taxing.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why these three women who were such high flyers in their careers,
24:03
SPEAKER_00: one was in her late 60s and two were in their mid-50s,
24:06
SPEAKER_00: they decided to step out because the cost of
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Having to Shape Themselves Into Acceptable At
24:17
SPEAKER_00: That Age Was Too High It Wasn't Worth It And If They Didn't Need The Money And
24:27
SPEAKER_00: The Interesting Thing About Money Ibrahim Is That We Have Very Old Beliefs
24:34
SPEAKER_00: About Finances And I've Met A Lot Of Women Who Actually Don't Need To Work
24:42
SPEAKER_00: They have enough money for retirement But it's the habit of working
24:47
SPEAKER_00: and making money That's what's making their decision to stay in the workplace When
24:53
SPEAKER_00: in fact they have enough money to retire Because our value and our worth is tied
24:59
SPEAKER_01: to making money Do you find yourself also helping women leave certain jobs
25:09
SPEAKER_01: or certain careers as well?
25:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean I if somebody asks me to support them in a job change
25:20
SPEAKER_00: of course I do coach people I can also see I have a coaching or I had
25:30
SPEAKER_00: a coaching client who was she was an executive in an association and she was clearly
25:37
SPEAKER_00: the wrong person in the job and her suffering was profound
25:43
SPEAKER_00: And I did ask her some questions that enabled her to look at the cost-benefit
25:50
SPEAKER_01: of staying in that job Why was she the wrong person, do you think?
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Bad match with the CEO That's,
25:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:59
SPEAKER_00: it's not like there's anything wrong with her It was,
26:02
SPEAKER_00: he was a founder Founders create the culture She was outside of the culture And
26:08
SPEAKER_00: so she was constantly banging heads with him
26:12
SPEAKER_00: And she'd had a very successful career as an association executive,
26:15
SPEAKER_00: so it wasn't anything wrong with her or with him.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: All of her attention, though, was on what was wrong with him.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: And so that was not a productive place for her to stand.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: And so I made gentle suggestions about,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: you know, inquiries about, when have you been really happy at work?
26:35
SPEAKER_00: What has that looked like?
26:37
SPEAKER_00: Where were the alignments?
26:39
SPEAKER_00: And how does that compare to this workplace?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And to begin the process of looking at, could you find that somewhere else?
26:50
SPEAKER_00: As opposed to keep trying to bend herself
26:53
SPEAKER_00: to fit this man's expectation of who she needed to be as a COO in his organization.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And what happened?
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Did she leave?
27:05
SPEAKER_00: She did.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: She left, but she left without a job.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, this woman is in her late 50s, and I was with her for about 18 months.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Trying to support her in finding a new job and she eventually just left without a job to go to.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: And so I am hoping that she has either been at peace with stopping working and moved
27:34
SPEAKER_00: on to find joy in her life or that she's found the next really good job for herself
27:40
SPEAKER_00: where she feels known and valued.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Do you think a lot of people are stuck with jobs and careers and bosses and cultures they hate?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: 100% Ibrahim
28:00
SPEAKER_00: I did a podcast earlier today and I talked about how early
28:05
SPEAKER_00: in my consulting career I created a program for one of the big accounting firms
28:11
SPEAKER_00: because their model is to bring really smart young people right out of college and
28:19
SPEAKER_00: to train them and to churn them and see who rises to the top.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: They Were Actually Bringing In More Women Than Men This Is Even 20 Years Ago
28:30
SPEAKER_00: And Their Turnover Among The Women Was Higher Than The Turnover Rate Was Higher
28:36
SPEAKER_00: For Women Than It Was For Men So I Created A Program Called Dynamic Choices
28:41
SPEAKER_00: For Women In Which We Unpacked With 25 Year Olds Their Career Choice To Be
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Where They Were
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And for most of them,
28:54
SPEAKER_00: they got into accounting because they were really good at math and because there's
29:00
SPEAKER_00: that carrot called partner with lots of money and lots of privileges that's
29:07
SPEAKER_00: a little hard to attain, right?
29:09
SPEAKER_00: You put your 15 or 18 years in and,
29:12
SPEAKER_00: you know, that's quite a big investment and not everybody gets to be partner.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: And so the work that I did with these young women was looking at
29:20
SPEAKER_00: Do they enjoy the work that they're doing?
29:25
SPEAKER_00: And if not, what else could they do?
29:27
SPEAKER_00: I told the client that after this work, two things would happen.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: One is that some women would leave because they were going to leave anyway.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Who knows if they would have been there six months,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: a year, three years, but this was not their environment.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: There would be other women who would be coming to them asking for some kind
29:48
SPEAKER_00: of accommodations,
29:50
SPEAKER_00: like part-time work,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: like not working nights twice a week,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: or whatever the fairly simple request is that would allow them
30:02
SPEAKER_00: to explore other parts of their lives that would bring balance to
30:06
SPEAKER_00: the work experience that they had.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's in fact what happened.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: Some women left,
30:12
SPEAKER_00: And I supported the organization in managing the requests for accommodations so
30:17
SPEAKER_00: that they could keep more of the women who were actually going
30:21
SPEAKER_00: to serve their clients for longer.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there are people who are really unhappy with work.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: And among that population,
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Many of them leave at three years, some way to be manager, they leave at ten years.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
30:38
SPEAKER_00: they lose a tremendous amount of talent
30:41
SPEAKER_00: because they're not permitting these young people to have the kind of experiences
30:49
SPEAKER_00: that make their lives richer.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: They're just,
30:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:52
SPEAKER_00: at some point the money,
30:53
SPEAKER_00: because they're well paid,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: at some point the money isn't worth the cost of what we have to give up
30:59
SPEAKER_00: to be successful in environments that don't reflect our values.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess at the beginning it's fun to turn a lot of money,
31:09
SPEAKER_01: but at some point it doesn't really matter.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: So, Leslie,
31:19
SPEAKER_01: if we talk about leaders now,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: what do you think leaders misunderstand most about inclusion and belonging?
31:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that leaders misunderstand that the conversations about inclusion
31:39
SPEAKER_00: and belonging are for everyone.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Not just for people who are in the non-dominant groups So,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: it's their problem It's something they need to work on And I think that's one of
31:55
SPEAKER_00: the greatest opportunities in that work Those who are continuing to do
32:00
SPEAKER_00: that work today And it's not like we haven't been doing this We've been working with
32:05
SPEAKER_00: the dominant culture for years on
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Opening Themselves To Their Own Experiences Of Inclusion And Belonging And
32:16
SPEAKER_00: The Recognition That Not Everybody Feels The Way That They Do So So I Think It's
32:22
SPEAKER_00: A Blind Spot That's The World Of Blind Spot I Also Think
32:27
SPEAKER_00: That It's Really Hard It's Hard To See Our Own Biases
32:33
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a real edge.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of training that's been done on bias really for the last 15, 20 years.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: my partner,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Howard Ross,
32:44
SPEAKER_00: wrote the original organizational book on unconscious bias and how to bring that
32:50
SPEAKER_00: into the organizational consciousness.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's just hard to see ourselves.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that Zen koan, you know?
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Air is to birds,
33:03
SPEAKER_00: water is to fishes We are to ourselves,
33:05
SPEAKER_00: hard to see ourselves And our own blind spots That's where data becomes very,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: very helpful You mentioned Howard G. Ross Did you mean his book Everyday Bias?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that was the book That's a great book That's a great book
33:30
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned yesterday when I was talking to you, you told me about priming.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Priming.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: What is priming, Leslie?
33:40
SPEAKER_00: Priming is a vehicle to remind our brains of something important
33:48
SPEAKER_00: right before I make a decision about that.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: So when we were at Cook Ross,
33:55
SPEAKER_00: we had created a bank of what we called priming tools,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: which were little animated videos,
34:02
SPEAKER_00: less than one minute,
34:05
SPEAKER_00: that I could watch before I interviewed somebody,
34:09
SPEAKER_00: before I made a decision about mentoring,
34:12
SPEAKER_00: talent management, who got to participate in some sort of
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Great Development Activity Any decision, any formal decision that I needed to make
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Performance Review was a really big one.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: So we created and watched these videos before we did our own decision making.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Because we all know conceptually, not all of us, but many people conceptually understand bias.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: But the synaptic grooves, the neuronal pathways that we have grooved,
34:49
SPEAKER_00: for a whole lifetime of decision-making around preference.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, I prefer people who are extroverted.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: I prefer people who can mirror me, like the really unconscious preferences, Ibrahim.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: It reminds me that that is indeed a preference and it is not predictive
35:12
SPEAKER_00: of somebody's opportunity to be successful.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: So we found just a little nudge and there's been a lot of data on nudges over the years.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: A little nudge actually has us make more open decisions instead
35:28
SPEAKER_00: of patterned decisions around talent.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: And you're talking, as you said, about unconscious preferences.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Because if I will ask you, you know, should we have a level playing field?
35:45
SPEAKER_01: You're going to tell me yes.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: But then when you make decisions,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: most of the time it's based on unconscious preferences,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: unconscious biases, and probably gut feeling as well.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: So what I hear you say is priming
36:00
SPEAKER_01: basically helps you to be reminded of those preferences that you have.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: And perhaps in doing so,
36:11
SPEAKER_01: you will be able to make probably,
36:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to say rational decisions,
36:17
SPEAKER_01: but decisions not based on the gut feeling and unconscious preferences.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate you bringing up the distinction gut feeling.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: Because there's nothing more biased than our gut feeling.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Our gut feeling is only preference,
36:36
SPEAKER_00: but it's unconscious to us and that's why we call it a gut feeling.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: I like you because there's something about you that reminds me of somebody
36:46
SPEAKER_00: in my life that I really like or I don't like.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: That's the gut feeling and it doesn't have anything to do with you,
36:56
SPEAKER_00: it has everything to do with my past experience and it's patently unfair
37:03
SPEAKER_00: and we do it all the time and we just,
37:06
SPEAKER_00: we've got to commit to the process of waking ourselves up to that humans do this and
37:17
SPEAKER_00: when we're clear about our commitment
37:20
SPEAKER_00: to equity or to getting the very best talent that we can, then,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: I might invest that minute or two minutes in whatever processes will allow me
37:36
SPEAKER_00: to bypass the gut feeling and to anchor on your qualifications.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's why priming is so important.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: All right.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Leslie, what does real inclusion and belonging look like in everyday behavior in the workplace?
38:08
SPEAKER_00: I would say,
38:10
SPEAKER_00: first of all,
38:11
SPEAKER_00: I would say that it's really difficult to achieve real inclusion and belonging,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: that it is always a work in progress.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: And having said that,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I would say that what it looks like is that people in the workplace have
38:30
SPEAKER_00: an experience of what we call psychological safety,
38:35
SPEAKER_00: where they feel like they can share whatever it is they would like
38:39
SPEAKER_00: to share around whatever content we're working on,
38:43
SPEAKER_00: and they're not holding back because of some sort of
38:50
SPEAKER_00: You know,
38:50
SPEAKER_00: reluctance to say what's true for you because you've had negative response in
38:58
SPEAKER_00: the past.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: Right?
39:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's really about people feeling like they're part of it and that they don't have
39:06
SPEAKER_00: to cover themselves to be acceptable to whatever the mainstream is in
39:11
SPEAKER_00: the organization.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: We can be who we are.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: Our gifts are available.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: A lot of leaders,
39:19
SPEAKER_01: a lot of organizations,
39:20
SPEAKER_01: they proudly say that they work against bias and they embrace diversity.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: It looks really good on the website and they've checked all the boxes.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: They have a training, a bias training, a diversity training and so forth.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: But when you look deeper,
39:50
SPEAKER_01: you see that,
39:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:52
SPEAKER_01: there's toxic culture People quit There are some diversity,
40:03
SPEAKER_01: but not on every level And so forth And sometimes I feel that organizations do
40:12
SPEAKER_01: that just to look good on paper
40:15
SPEAKER_00: No question about it.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, in today's world, all of that has been stripped away.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: So the externalized branding of being an organization that values inclusion
40:30
SPEAKER_00: and diversity is now, you know, can be seen as a liability and not an asset.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: So the world of diversity and inclusion is not what you say about it, it's how you be.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you an example of a gentleman I met three weeks ago who runs
40:52
SPEAKER_00: an organization in the world of TV and video and things like that.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: He has a large department and he was sharing with me
41:04
SPEAKER_00: that his department always gets top scores in their organization culture surveys
41:11
SPEAKER_00: and far higher than any other unit in his organization.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: I have seen that before and this wasn't about him
41:22
SPEAKER_00: showing off at all.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: What he was doing is this is a man who has done a tremendous amount
41:28
SPEAKER_00: of personal development work.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: He has really taken himself on and he has learned how to lead his employees in such
41:39
SPEAKER_00: a way that allows the diversity of their
41:45
SPEAKER_00: their experience and their thoughts,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: not even identity,
41:48
SPEAKER_00: although he has a diverse workforce, but he permits that to come forward.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: People feel like he cares about them and that he supports them in their development.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: He's a white guy,
42:04
SPEAKER_00: but what's really important about him is his commitment to the health of
42:09
SPEAKER_00: the culture.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: And for him,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: because he's done his own work,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: it's not that there was a mission statement,
42:18
SPEAKER_00: it's not that there were values on the wall of his department,
42:22
SPEAKER_00: he's done his own work so that his ego is not the one making the decisions
42:28
SPEAKER_00: about his workplace, but it's his commitment to the quality of what gets created.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: and to the individuals who populate his place of work.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: That's what inclusion and diversity is.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: It's great leadership, Ibrahim.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: That's what it is.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: That's why the conversation of diversity and inclusion can never be separated from leadership.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: This is not something that the
42:58
SPEAKER_00: the DEI department does.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: This is something that all leaders have to embrace.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: And there's not that many leaders who have the human growth to really be effective in that way.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: And when you find them, they're treasures.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: And there are people out there who are really great at it.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: They're great leaders.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Inclusion and diversity is just one of the impacts of great leadership.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: It takes, as you say, commitment.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Commitment and involvement from leaders, the leadership.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: Leslie, we started this show by talking about women, specifically women over 50.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: What advice do you have for women who have just entered the workforce,
44:02
SPEAKER_01: perhaps just started their first job,
44:06
SPEAKER_01: are part of a team, perhaps thinking of or dreaming of becoming a leader themselves?
44:13
SPEAKER_00: I would say really for all women, I mean, we can start with early career women, but I think
44:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, our motivations change over the decades of our lives.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think an early career woman is someone who wants to establish herself and to
44:35
SPEAKER_00: Ibrahim Mo
45:02
SPEAKER_00: and that you get clear on what your drivers are,
45:05
SPEAKER_00: what your motivations are, what makes you happy.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: And if that can't be fulfilled in the workplace,
45:14
SPEAKER_00: then to make sure that you're finding what does fulfill on that outside of
45:20
SPEAKER_00: the workplace so that you're leading a full and rich life.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: The burnout happens when we don't have
45:32
SPEAKER_00: that we're not fulfilled.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: We're not wholly fulfilled by our life activities.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: And so we over-invest in the work domain,
45:44
SPEAKER_00: thinking that that's going to give it to us, but in fact it doesn't.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: Always.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: It does for some, but infrequently.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: When you say invest in yourself, what do you exactly mean?
46:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, do the personal development that lets you know what your drivers are,
46:07
SPEAKER_00: what your motivations are.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, in the organizational world, there's a lot.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: It offers us a lot in that space.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: There are 360s, right,
46:17
SPEAKER_00: which is a tool where you evaluate yourself and then people
46:20
SPEAKER_00: who know you evaluate you.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: That can be very illuminating.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: There's all kinds of
46:27
SPEAKER_00: Testing around Personality and the Enneagram and Myers-Briggs and the DISC.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: These are all valuable tools and a lot of workplaces use them.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: I would say if you're given an opportunity to learn something about yourself
46:42
SPEAKER_00: in your workplace, do that.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: I think if you want to do that outside of the workplace,
46:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm totally a proponent of therapy,
46:52
SPEAKER_00: of doing personal development workshops,
46:54
SPEAKER_00: spiritual development workshops,
46:57
SPEAKER_00: art, anything that gives you a glimpse into your drivers is really valuable.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: And the women who have started that journey early,
47:09
SPEAKER_00: and there are many around me, are much happier humans.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: than those who never get to it or get to it much later in life.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: I believe it's about self-esteem,
47:24
SPEAKER_01: how you see yourself,
47:26
SPEAKER_01: how you value yourself, the degree to which you like and respect yourself.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: But that's not automatic, Ibrahim.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: No, it's not.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: Right?
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Because there are a lot of people who have some kind of childhood trauma,
47:44
SPEAKER_00: far more than we realize.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: Far more people have
47:50
SPEAKER_00: something unresolved in their early years that shows up as adults.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: But until we name it and work with it, then it makes decisions for us.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people,
48:05
SPEAKER_00: a lot of leaders and organizations are four- and five-year-olds making decisions
48:11
SPEAKER_00: about multi-billion-dollar organizations out of their feelings.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: than people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, 60s, 70s, whatever.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: So if we haven't done that inquiry into who we are so that we can build
48:28
SPEAKER_00: that self-esteem, of course we're born with it, right?
48:32
SPEAKER_00: We're born whole and complete,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: and it erodes in the life experiences, especially the early life experiences.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: Especially, yeah.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Journey is to reclaim that.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: That's the personal development work is to,
48:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:51
SPEAKER_00: the things that have me contract as a human being,
48:55
SPEAKER_00: the imposter syndrome,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: the not good enough, that we release that if we do our work so that we can be whole.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you, interestingly enough, you know, I sit in groups of 10 and
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Sitting around a circle of ten women Most of these women
49:18
SPEAKER_00: And these are top performers in the world These are women with amazing titles
49:25
SPEAKER_00: and experience A lot of them have not done that work And that stands between them
49:32
SPEAKER_00: And a happy and whole second half of life
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Because if we never resolve what's there and what's present,
49:47
SPEAKER_00: then those voices,
49:50
SPEAKER_00: those parts of ourselves,
49:52
SPEAKER_00: will be making the very important decisions that we make as humans at this time
49:57
SPEAKER_00: of life.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Am I going to keep working?
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Am I going to retire?
50:01
SPEAKER_00: Am I going to stay married?
50:03
SPEAKER_00: Am I going to start a new career?
50:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, all of the am-is.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: We have to be super mindful that the decisions are being made by the essence of
50:14
SPEAKER_00: who we are and by the purpose-driven being that is in all of us instead of
50:22
SPEAKER_00: a hurt five-year-old.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: What comes to mind is politics.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: We're not going to talk about politics today,
50:41
SPEAKER_01: but politics and our leaders today, they certainly need to hear this episode.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: No question about it.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's not just politics.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: It's anybody who is in a position of power
51:03
SPEAKER_00: whose decisions impact directly the lives of other people.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: And some people have much more scope than other people, and we are all responsible for that.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: We're all responsible for ourselves and making sure
51:23
SPEAKER_00: that we bring our very best selves to bear when we're making decisions
51:28
SPEAKER_00: that impact other people.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: When we come across a person who has a lot of childhood wounds and trauma
51:44
SPEAKER_01: and is making decisions and is an adult but is probably hurt
51:51
SPEAKER_01: and making decisions out of fear, we can almost instantly feel that Yes
51:58
SPEAKER_01: You can feel it.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: You can't fake being genuine and being healed and being happy.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: You can't really fake that.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: No, you cannot.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: People see right through that.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: And the insidious thing is that when you have power, you don't have to
52:29
SPEAKER_00: evoke a more evolved part of yourself because you've got power.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: You can just make whatever decisions that you want because what comes back
52:40
SPEAKER_00: to you typically is that you never get the message that the emperor has no clothes,
52:46
SPEAKER_00: if you know that reference.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, people in positions of power often surround themselves with people who
52:56
SPEAKER_00: are invested in that person in a position of power and
53:01
SPEAKER_00: then they moderate whatever repercussions come back to them that keep that system
53:08
SPEAKER_00: in place because those people around him or her have something to gain from
53:15
SPEAKER_00: that person who's making uninformed decisions that impact other people.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: They're beneficiaries of that.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: So the system keeps it in place It's usually not an individual It's usually a system
53:32
SPEAKER_00: And that was,
53:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:34
SPEAKER_00: in my consulting career That was such a gift,
53:37
SPEAKER_00: an amazing gift To be able to expose these gaps in systems Where,
53:47
SPEAKER_00: you know, where feedback did not flow fully Between levels and...
53:53
SPEAKER_00: And to actually see real change when people could see that,
53:58
SPEAKER_00: they could actually see that they've been overtaken by something.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen profound shifts in organizations.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: Not always, because you have to want to change.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: And you have to be open to the feedback.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not, you just are guaranteed to keep things the way they are.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: Is there something I should have asked you today?
54:25
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, is there something you should have asked me?
54:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: This was a pretty wide-ranging conversation.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: You asked me about why working with women was important to me.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: I think to close,
54:40
SPEAKER_00: I would say that working with women has been one of the greatest privileges
54:48
SPEAKER_00: of my life.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: And every time I sit in circle with other women that I grow.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: So there definitely is a selfish component to that.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: When we work together in a group, and I do all of my work in person, I don't do it by Zoom,
55:09
SPEAKER_00: when we work together in a group and women are telling their stories what happens in
55:15
SPEAKER_00: that group is that she is saying a part of her story that I have not recognized
55:22
SPEAKER_00: in my own life and it's a way for me to complete something
55:27
SPEAKER_00: by hearing somebody else's story and
55:31
SPEAKER_00: Groups work on many different levels,
55:35
SPEAKER_00: many of which we can't see or name,
55:37
SPEAKER_00: but there is an incredible power in people coming together and exposing the parts
55:44
SPEAKER_00: of themselves that are vulnerable where there's fear.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: And seeing how many other people share that same concern, that same fear.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: There's something really healing about that.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: So I'll just close by sharing the power of that
56:03
SPEAKER_00: and how much I grow every time I'm given an opportunity to sit with other women.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's not all about me.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: It's about us.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: What's next for you?
56:18
SPEAKER_01: Are you going to write a book?
56:22
SPEAKER_00: So that's a really good question
56:24
SPEAKER_00: The book thing has been bouncing around I've had people tell me that I've got a book
56:30
SPEAKER_00: in me So I don't know That's why I asked I've got a great full life
56:38
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's a book, I don't know.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: I have learned, Ibrahim, to listen for a full-body yes about things that are new.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: My mind has overridden so much in my life that I should do this and I should do that.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: At this stage in my life, I'm waiting until I get a real yes before I pursue something new.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: So, who knows?
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's a book, maybe not.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: I did get a full-body yes the other day for a new program called The Way of Wisdom,
57:13
SPEAKER_00: A Woman's Journey.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: The Way of Wisdom.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, A Woman's Journey, and that will be an eight-day program coming up in the winter.
57:20
SPEAKER_00: That was like a quick, yep, doing this, what a gift.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: I always teach what I need to learn, and I'm excited about that opportunity.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm waiting for the book to be a yes.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully soon.
57:35
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully soon.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: Where can people find you, Leslie?
57:39
SPEAKER_01: Find that program, for instance?
57:41
SPEAKER_00: I have a website called rewiringtogether.org.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
57:48
SPEAKER_00: many of the women who have been through my program asked, what about for my husband?
57:54
SPEAKER_00: And so Howard Ross,
57:56
SPEAKER_00: my partner and my husband,
57:57
SPEAKER_00: created a program for men called Rewiring Together for Men Over 50.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: And they're different,
58:05
SPEAKER_00: they're very different because we have very different life experiences
58:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think he's going on his sixth cohort actually at this point And I'm going
58:14
SPEAKER_01: on 19 And how many days is the program?
58:20
SPEAKER_00: My program for women is a weekend with follow-ups His program is three weekends
58:26
SPEAKER_00: and lots of inter-program work
58:31
SPEAKER_00: because men and women come at this stage of life really differently.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Our unpacking is different.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: And is he also working with men over 50?
58:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: As well?
58:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: Leslie, one last question I ask all of my guests.
58:47
SPEAKER_01: And the question is, what advice do you have for a better, more meaningful life?
58:54
SPEAKER_00: I would say invest in yourself.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: That's very simple It's not easy to do But learn about yourself Learn
59:06
SPEAKER_00: about your drivers Learn about your parts
59:12
SPEAKER_00: Read a book on Internal Family Systems by Richard Schwartz Do the work so
59:19
SPEAKER_00: that you know what's important to you,
59:21
SPEAKER_00: your values,
59:22
SPEAKER_00: your guiding principles,
59:24
SPEAKER_00: and then don't be attached to them because some of them may be
59:30
SPEAKER_00: Echoes from a time in your life that wasn't secure and will not lead you in
59:39
SPEAKER_00: the direction towards your soul.
59:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time.
59:43
SPEAKER_01: What an interesting conversation.
59:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've covered a lot.
59:49
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about women.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about women over 50.
59:54
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about imposter syndrome, inclusion, diversity, bias, priming.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: Getting to Know Yourself, Personal Development.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: What a meaningful conversation.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate this conversation.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: And what I look forward to is listening to this episode myself three,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: four times and discovering things
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: Also about myself, what I need to learn about myself and things I can develop as well.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: Because one thing that resonated with me is that,
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: you know, we bring ourselves to work every day.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: We make decisions based on our emotions, our biases, but also our childhood wounds and trauma.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: And what a deep conversation.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: So I want to thank you for that.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: Your work is important.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: Please continue to do what you do.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_01: And come back again.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ibrahim.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: It was my pleasure.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: share it with someone you care about,
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: a friend, a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm Ibrahim.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.