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Engaging with your rep and nailing petitions · Save Democracy

• 0:04
  Hello, and welcome to Save Democracy.
• 0:06
  Thanks for joining us today.
• 0:08
  Just a quick word about our YouTube channel.
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  If you could spare a moment to click subscribe, it would mean a lot to us,
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  and it'll help sustain the podcast.
• 0:16
  Thank you for your support.
• 0:18
  Today, I'm speaking to a world-leading expert on how to
• 0:21
  engage with your parliament.
• 0:24
  Parliaments might seem a bit impenetrable, but after the next 30 minutes,
• 0:28
  you may see them very differently.
• 0:29
  Cristina Leston-Bandeira, co-founder and former chair of the International
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  Parliament Engagement Network and Professor of Politics at the University
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  of Leeds, is a leading authority on citizen engagement with parliaments.
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  She advises legislatures worldwide, authors practical guides,
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  and leads research on making parliaments more accessible.
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  How can you effectively engage with your rep, your MP, and when you're
• 1:01
  working as a group to raise an issue with Parliament, what's good to know?
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  Welcome, Cristina.
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  Thank you very much.
• 1:09
  Hello, Katherine, and thank you for inviting me for the podcast.
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  Well, it's a great honor to have you here.
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  I think for a lot of people, they might some- sometimes get a bit infuriated
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  with their Parliament on a particular issue they care about, but it might
• 1:23
  seem impenetrable to approach the subject of accessing a parliament.
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  And so we really wanted
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  to try to unpack that and learn from the wealth of your experience.
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  So how would you like to start?
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  I think a very important distinction to be made is between parliament and government.
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  Most research shows that regardless of the country, people confuse the
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  two a lot, and it's really important to understand the difference because
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  they are different groups of people.
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  They are different audiences, and that's really important because if you're
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  trying, if you're infuriated about something and you want it to change,
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  then you need to have an awareness, a sense of who will listen to me or who is
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  wanting to listen to me, or where will it be more effective to go and talk to.
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  Governments are there to implement policy.
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  They are the ones who lead on developing the laws, on developing policy
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  ideas and then implementing them.
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  So they have the civil service working for them, etc. And they usually
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  have one manifesto, one program.
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  Even if it's a coalition, different parties, they have
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  something that they want to do.
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  Whereas Parliament brings in a collection of lots of different political actors,
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  including, crucially, the opposition.
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  So the main thing to understand is that parliaments should be there to represent
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  everyone, and they're there to keep an eye on what government is doing.
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  So whether it's through checks and balances, whether it's through trying
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  to change the law, amending legislation.
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  And this distinction is really important because by going to Parliament, you're
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  going to an institution that is like a collective, bringing in people,
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  representatives, parties, political groups from lots of different areas.
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  So it's quite likely there will be someone in parliament who actually is more in
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  line with your thoughts, what you think about, this thing that infuriates you.
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  But likewise, it's a channel to keep a check on government.
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  But it's really important to understand that distinction.
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  And parliaments don't always have the power to change everything.
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  Government has the power.
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  So it's really important to understand that parliaments, most of the time, they
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  can try to influence, to scrutinize, which means to check how things are
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  going, to call ministers, prime ministers to parliament to answer questions,
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  to do inquiries, all those things.
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  But they are not the institution that actually implements policy, and
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  that's really important to understand.
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  Wonderful clarification.
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  So could you think of an example straight up which really illustrates
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  the difference here, or at least maybe how a civil society group, a group
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  of individual citizens, were able to influence a policy via their parliament
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  and how that managed to work, given that they were not the government?
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  Yes.
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  There's so many examples of how you can do that, and I'll come to
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  petitions in a minute because I think petitions are a really clear way.
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  But anything you can do in terms of getting to know what parliament
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  is doing itself is really important to then knowing how to engage.
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  So I would say before you actually try to engage, having an
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  understanding of what the institution is doing is absolutely crucial.
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  I always say you can't get participation without information and education.
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  So getting a sense for what is the institution, who are the
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  people there, what does it do.
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  And there's lots of things that can help you do that.
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  Most parliaments, and this varies a lot between different countries, but most
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  parliaments have visiting programs, have websites, have workshops, resources
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  to help with that to understand what the institution is, and looking at the
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  distinction between one and the other.
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  An example that came to mind is a petition done in Wales, a
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  nation within the United Kingdom.
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  And it was a petition about banning plastic bags or a petition to at
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  least to make people start paying for plastic bags at the time.
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  This is in the early 2000s, and this is not necessarily that the
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  government did not want to do that.
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  What happens here is that the government hadn't thought about it yet.
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  And so this citizen, they were infuriated with the use of plastic
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  bags in supermarkets and by everyone, but didn't really know how to
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  approach it directly to government.
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  And that's one of the other things, that actually it's much easier to actually
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  approach parliament than government.
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  Government often, you don't know who the civil servants are, you don't know
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  what the addresses of ministers are.
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  Whereas parliament, usually MPs, deputies, representatives, their contacts
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  are much more available, and you do have these channels to communicate
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  and to engage and to ask for change.
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  Whereas again, with government, you don't necessarily have those.
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  So this petitioner, he brought this petition about, it was at the
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  beginning banning plastic bags.
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  And the Welsh Parliament, I think it was around 2007 then,
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  so a long time ago, nearly
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  20 years.
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  The Welsh Parliament had, and still has, a petitions committee that dealt with it.
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  In the end, it didn't become like banning plastic bags, but it became this charge
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  for plastic bags that was introduced.
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  And they are the first nation in the United Kingdom doing that.
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  And then, and this today actually, it seems like a silly thing because a lot
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  of people are much more aware of plastic bags in lots of countries and charges are
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  just there, or people offer alternatives.
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  But what these mechanisms to engage with parliament do is they
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  enable citizens to bring in issues, things that need changing that the
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  government is not even thinking about.
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  Because the government, they've got their program they're doing, they
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  focus on the things they want to do.
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  They're not necessarily looking at-- They can't look at everything.
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  So they're not necessarily looking at other things.
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  And so this is an example of how then the petitions committee brought in
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  ministers, had a discussion about it, did an inquiry, etc. And then in the end, the
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  government actually did change the law so that plastic bags were not used as much.
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  Do you have any idea how many signatures that person had to get or what sort of
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  awareness they had to build in order for it to be taken seriously by the committee?
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  So at the time, actually, there were not thresholds of number of signatures
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  for petitions in the Welsh Parliament.
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  And that's a really interesting question because not all parliaments
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  have a threshold, a number of signatures for particular things.
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  So for instance, in the UK Parliament, you do need to have 10,000 signatures
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  to get the response from the government.
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  Again, different from parliament.
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  And that response then goes to the petitions committee in parliament that
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  has representatives from all parties or most parties, and they look at it.
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  And you need 100,000 signatures to be considered to be debated.
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  But for
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  instance, the Parliament of Scotland has no requirement of number of signatures.
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  And I think, and this may be wrong, I think Ireland is the same thing [Correct].
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  But they're definitely not the only parliament not asking
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  for the number of signatures.
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  And the number of signatures is just a way of parliaments prioritizing
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  the volume of petitions coming in.
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  So the Welsh Parliament today does have a number of signatures that they require
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  people to have in order to be considered or in order to maybe to be debated.
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  And that is basically a reflection of the volume of petitions they get.
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  But we can talk a little bit about how you can gain that visibility if you want.
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  Yes, let's do that while we're on petitions, because that is one of
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  the main ways citizens can engage.
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  Is that right?
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  Yes, definitely.
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  So if the parliament that
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  you want to influence has a threshold of number of signatures, you need
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  to achieve that - in Portugal, for instance, it's 7,500 signatures.
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  So
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  if, if you have a threshold, you need to achieve that.
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  And to do that, you can do things like obviously use social media.
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  But I actually often recommend people that they work on a two-pronged approach.
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  One is to focus on the public, the other one is focus on politicians.
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  So contacting politicians directly is a really good idea to do that.
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  Besides doing the social media, to disseminate the idea of the petition.
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  But with both of those, a crucial thing in there is to have a story to tell.
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  To think about - is there a story behind that issue that is really infuriating you?
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  Is there something behind there?
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  Because people, as you'll know very well, being a podcaster,
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  people connect through stories.
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  They understand stories.
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  They don't necessarily connect with complex policy, which may be all very
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  accurate and fair and everything, but it's very difficult to communicate that.
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  Whereas if you communicate a story, a feeling, people understand that and
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  this is bringing me to think about a petitioner, this was in the UK Parliament,
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  who very sadly, lost her son, who drowned in a lake, and she's been campaigning
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  about water safety ever since then.
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  She's called Becky, and
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  she's not a campaigner.
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  She doesn't have a political background at all.
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  She's more, if you would say, working class.
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  And what drives her campaign is obviously the grief, and the passion
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  to try to change things so that other people don't go through the same.
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  And there's a great video that the Petitions Committee put online of
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  her speaking through this and how she got the attention of people.
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  And she says she went everywhere.
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  She went to football matches, to events, and she
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  talked to local media.
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  Don't disregard the local media, the local press, the local
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  broadcaster, the local radio station.
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  Not all regions, not all countries have those, but the local,
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  the more it is local, the more they're likely to listen to you.
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  And then that can be amplified, become regional, become national, and
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  other people start listening to you.
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  So she did all of those things.
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  And obviously behind all of that, one of the main reasons why people, it
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  did get, did capture imagination.
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  She got well over 100,000 signatures.
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  This is someone with-- you'd think doesn't have necessarily the
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  networks, the resources to get to 100,000 signatures, but she did.
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  And it's the story behind it.
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  It's the fact that it happened to her son.
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  It's very personal, very deep.
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  And so whatever that story is, it's what really enables to communicate.
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  And if that works for the public, it also works with politicians.
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  So representatives, MPs, they get bombarded with requests all the time.
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  They get hundreds of emails a day.
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  They have to prioritize too.
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  They have to think what's in here.
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  And if you contact them with a personal story, they get it just like
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  anyone else, and they connect to it.
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  So that's one thing to realize.
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  To go both to politicians and to the public and use stories.
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  But also, the fact that-- and this will vary a lot from country to
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  country, parliament to parliament, but there are usually different
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  political groups, different voices, and it's about understanding,
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  which ones to go and talk to.
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  Not necessarily just talking to one MP, but talk to several.
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  Or, rather to one party, talk to several of them.
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  Normally, they have different committees, working groups, on
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  different subjects which can help steer you in the right direction.
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  Or you can maybe search parliamentary debates on the subject itself and see the
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  different MPs who spoke in the chamber.
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  Definitely.
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  Here, we're getting quite specific.
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  It varies a lot from parliament to parliament.
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  In the UK Parliament there's something called APPGs, which are called
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  All-Party Parliamentary Groups.
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  And these are not an official part of business.
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  They don't have any official role.
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  They don't do official reports.
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  So they're not like a parliamentary committee.
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  But what they do is they specialize on very specific topics, and they bring
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  together MPs, so from the lower chamber, from the House of Commons, and peers, from
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  the upper chamber, the House of Lords.
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  And they have to bring people from different parties,
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  so they work across party.
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  And you can achieve a lot across party, particularly if you're trying to change--
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  if you're trying to change government policy, but you are just one party of
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  the opposition, the government is less likely to listen to you because they're
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  thinking you're just doing opposition.
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  You just want to win the next election.
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  But if you are working with a group of people who specialize on that issue
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  and who are from different parties, and in this case you've got people from
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  the upper chamber, the lower chamber, you are taken much more seriously.
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  That's a really great point.
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  Even if you're working as an individual like that lady with her terrible
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  situation about the lake, it sounded like almost like an individual
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  run, effort,
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  but if she reaches people from the upper
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  and lower house across parties when she, positions the story, or
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  she's writing to key ministers, for example, and she has that whole
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  cross-section, it has a lot more weight even though she's just one person.
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  Exactly.
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  Because straight away it gives more legitimacy.
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  You're not attached to a particular party color, let's say.
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  And if you have people from different parties listen to you,
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  it shows that you have a case.
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  There's something there to talk about.
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  You mentioned committees, and absolutely, that's one of the things
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  I wanted to mention also actually is committees, parliamentary committees.
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  And the vast
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  majority of parliaments, even very small parliaments, they have committees.
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  And committees, they're a group of MPs, small groups of MPs within a parliament,
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  and they work on topics, on subjects.
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  So you may have a committee for education, a committee for
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  defense, a committee for health.
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  And again, they've got that specialization, and that can be really
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  helpful when you're trying to change policy to go and talk to people who know
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  about health or who know about education.
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  And they tend to be cross-party again.
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  They tend to have people from different parties.
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  And exactly as you said, if you're trying to find who are the people,
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  who are the politicians who would be useful to talk to on this topic,
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  definitely search debates, if that's possible in your country, but also
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  definitely look at committees.
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  Who are the members of the committees?
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  Because they're quite likely to be the ones that are interested on your issue.
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  I noticed with both the examples that you gave, and noticed in petitions generally,
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  that they tend to be very specific in what they're trying to achieve.
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  The plastic bags, the lake safety.
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  Yes, absolutely.
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  That's something else that… Because I often do workshops about petitions to
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  the public, and in terms of my advice of how can you make your petitions
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  succeed, it actually starts by making it as specific as possible, basically.
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  The more specific it is, the more likely it is to gain… Well, there's two things.
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  It's more likely to gain that cross-party support, but also it's more likely to be
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  something that can actually be changed.
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  If you have a petition about I don't know, to make the world
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  safer, fight climate change.
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  That's too broad.
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  That's not going to lead to anyone.
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  You can find many people who agree and disagree with that.
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  But if you actually identify a problem that needs solving, that's where making
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  it specific really, really helps.
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  and I often differentiate between what I refer to as protest
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  petitions and substantive petitions.
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  And what I mean with that is that protest petitions, you often see
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  them, they tend to be quite generic.
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  Sometimes they're not, and sometimes can be quite specific.
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  But what they are is just a manifestation of real anger and dissatisfaction.
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  Anger is maybe too strong, but dissatisfaction, you know, frustration.
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  And those, they're not about necessarily something that actually
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  will change, and politicians might not necessarily look at it.
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  But the fact that they are public and visible and with so many signatures in
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  those cases, it just manifests in a public opinion, and that's still important.
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  It is like a thermometer of public opinion, and that's still valuable because
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  politicians will still bear that in mind, the strength of feeling on that.
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  So those petitions, they are performing a role of protesting, not necessarily
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  actually changing something.
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  Whereas the substantive ones tend to be much more on specific things,
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  problem-solving, and they tend to capture more cross-party attention,
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  and they tend to lead to, to change.
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  Wonderful to clarify that.
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  And, I'm thinking now of the person listening who may feel a bit intimidated
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  by single-handedly trying to get that kind of ball rolling, but might
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  feel very strongly about a subject, and they might, feel that they have
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  got a strong story, and it's a very specific thing that they're trying
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  to achieve, a substantive change.
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  I just wanted to try to point to civil society here, and depending on
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  the country, there's likely a good chance that there'll be some kind of
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  group or entity that deals at least in a related way to the subject at
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  the heart of your petition idea.
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  So if you're feeling like that you can't, step forward, as an individual,
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  to do maybe some research on what groups exist already that you might be able to
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  approach and participate or talk to.
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  And they may not want to take it up, but they may be very supportive, and sometimes
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  just getting the support of a group of people, can be enough encouragement,
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  and they might have good advice about the specifics of the parliament and how
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  it works and people on the committees, because they will have probably had
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  experience interacting with parliaments, and know a lot more than, say, somebody
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  who's just maybe reading the news.
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  So I just wanted to point to that civil society aspect of petitioning parliament.
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  If there's anything you wanted to elaborate on in that space.
• 21:09
  Yes, definitely.
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  In actual fact, most user petitions are civil society, to be honest.
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  It's not necessarily individuals.
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  So civil society organizations, they're the ones who really know how to use
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  petitions and often have petitions as a key tool in their campaigning portfolio.
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  Because that's often what petitions are.
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  They are a tool in a campaigning portfolio, and with other things
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  such as lobbying individual politicians, doing events.
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  I mean, that's another way you can get signatures, doing an event.
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  Even just a cake stall, selling some cakes, doing a walk.
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  There's this amazing petition called Three Dads Walking, who have
• 21:50
  been campaigning about prevention of suicide amongst young people.
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  Again- Driven by tragic loss in their own families.
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  Each of the three dads lost their daughters for suicide.
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  And all the, I'm sorry, but a lot of these types of petitions,
• 22:05
  they tend to be quite tragic.
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  Whenever I'm speaking to my students, I always warn them, "Look, there's a lot
• 22:10
  of tragedy here," because often that's what drives people to do these petitions.
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  But anyway, coming back to the three dads, who are amazing men, they really are.
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  You'll find them online.
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  Well, the main event that they've been doing is walking.
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  They've been walking across the whole of the UK, and then they do events.
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  And actually, they're a really good example of what you refer
• 22:30
  to in terms of civil society.
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  So they started individually, thinking about it, but actually then they became
• 22:36
  involved with a charity called Papyrus that has campaigned on this issue for a
• 22:41
  long time, and now they work together.
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  And so Papyrus will organize events.
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  They come and talk to it, and they refer to it all the time.
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  And you're absolutely right.
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  There's-- Again, depends on the country, but in a lot of countries, there will
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  be an organization there on your topic, and it makes absolute sense to align
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  with them because, as you say, they'll have the expertise about Parliament, but
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  also the expertise on how to campaign.
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  Yes, and they'll have probably a big platform of people that can spread the
• 23:12
  message much more than you can over time.
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  Exactly.
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  They'll have that network of people they can reach out to.
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  And so absolutely, if there is a civil society organization there that you
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  think you can ally to, by all means, that's a really good thing to do.
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  The only thing I would say is be aware that civil society
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  organizations themselves, they also have their own, agendas and their own
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  biases.
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  So if you get associated with one that has a very strong bias in a particular area,
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  then you are going to be seen in the same way as that civil society organization.
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  And there's countries like Germany and Austria in Europe who have what we
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  refer to as very corporative type of civil society, where civil society are
• 24:01
  aligned to the left or to the right.
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  And sometimes just by the name of them, you know which way it is.
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  Or different case, for instance, Northern Ireland, as I'm sure you're aware,
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  Northern Ireland is a very divided society, between two main groups.
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  Again, just the name of an organization would indicate to you which side you are.
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  So-- But that's not to say, not to encourage people to
• 24:27
  reach out to civil society.
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  I think they should absolutely do.
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  Just, this is just things to, to think about.
• 24:33
  Are you aligned?
• 24:34
  To do the research.
• 24:36
  To do the research.
• 24:37
  And it might be that you are completely in line with that
• 24:41
  organization's bias and agenda.
• 24:42
  That's absolutely fine.
• 24:44
  I'm not saying that, but just to bear that in mind.
• 24:47
  The other thing to bear in mind is that, yes, civil society organizations are
• 24:50
  actually the main users of petitions, and sometimes that-- Well, not
• 24:55
  sometimes, often I have to say, that results in mass petitioning, anonymous
• 25:01
  petitioning that doesn't have those stories, doesn't have those elements
• 25:05
  that we know make petitions authentic.
• 25:08
  And in the UK, there's at least two platforms and elsewhere also
• 25:14
  which bombard MPs, with emails, and that's not helpful neither.
• 25:20
  If there's someone here listening to us thinking about a strategy,
• 25:24
  contacting an MP because that MP has an expertise or there's a reason
• 25:31
  to contact that MP or that peer.
• 25:35
  But if you want to contact all 650, just don't do that because they get
• 25:39
  so much volume of communications that then you don't shine as an individual.
• 25:45
  I understand.
• 25:46
  You need that connection.
• 25:48
  Can I just ask you, it'll be different in every country, but I know in,
• 25:51
  in the UK, and sorry to talk about the UK again, listeners, but it
• 25:55
  may be relevant in your country.
• 25:57
  Often you get a reply from a, a member of Parliament that says, "Oh no, you'll
• 26:00
  need to get in touch with your own MP."
• 26:02
  So
• 26:05
  you'll reach out to one that you think will be very interested or connected
• 26:10
  in that way, but they'll just bounce you back to your own MP, and then your
• 26:14
  own MP will give you a, you know, cut and paste kind of answer in some cases.
• 26:19
  How could you get around that?
• 26:20
  Is it maybe with a group of people, all writing to the same person who
• 26:25
  on the face of it is meant to be really interested in the subject or?
• 26:30
  Yes.
• 26:31
  In the UK there's the first past the post electoral system, which
• 26:36
  means it's completely structured around the constituencies.
• 26:41
  And yes, MPs traditionally would not respond to correspondence requests
• 26:47
  from a different constituency.
• 26:49
  So the way to overcome that is to make absolutely clear why that MP
• 26:56
  really matters on that issue, and that comes back to my previous point.
• 27:00
  If you are contacting MP X just because that MP is one of 650, but,
• 27:07
  and you're not from their constituency, you're not going to get anything.
• 27:11
  But if that MP, say you're working on something to do with, transport in rural
• 27:18
  areas, and that MP has debated about that, has brought in amendments about
• 27:23
  that, has, is involved in APPG, is in the committee that deals with those matters,
• 27:28
  for just a few examples, then it's very likely that MP will respond because
• 27:34
  they're not responding to casework.
• 27:37
  Casework means dealing with requests from constituents, resolving
• 27:41
  problems from constituents.
• 27:43
  It's instead, a topical, a thematic type of contact, and
• 27:49
  they will answer to you on those.
• 27:51
  And MPs have to be very careful with their time, and so they'll often choose
• 27:58
  particular interests that they will follow, and be very clear about it because
• 28:03
  they can't be inundated on every topic.
• 28:05
  And so often they'll be quite clear about what are the things they're
• 28:09
  pursuing and what they're interested in.
• 28:10
  It'll often be on their websites and in media coverage that they're engaging with.
• 28:14
  And would that be a fair thing across parliaments to say?
• 28:20
  Absolutely.
• 28:21
  Obviously, it varies from country to country, from system to system.
• 28:25
  In the UK, I think we have achieved a moment now, it's quite saturated
• 28:29
  in terms of all the contacts that MPs get, in terms of the resources
• 28:34
  that they have to deal with those demands, and they have to specialize.
• 28:38
  That's why they specialize on their constituency, but then they
• 28:40
  specialize on specific topics also.
• 28:43
  And linked to this, which might not necessarily be something that you would
• 28:48
  have thought of thinking about, but I think it is important point to make,
• 28:53
  is that politicians, MPs, whoever they may be, they are supported by staff,
• 29:00
  and there's absolutely no way they could do their job without that staff.
• 29:05
  Is that the case in most countries that have parliaments
• 29:08
  that are more than a fig leaf?
• 29:10
  Not necessarily.
• 29:11
  Not necessarily.
• 29:12
  So, for instance, I mentioned Portugal earlier, so let's go back to Portugal.
• 29:17
  Portugal is based on the PR system, proportional representation list
• 29:21
  system, so it's very party based.
• 29:24
  And there the resources are given to the party group, party parliamentary
• 29:28
  group, and MPs individually, they don't necessarily have that support staff.
• 29:33
  But whether it's support staff to the MP individually or whether support
• 29:36
  staff to the parliamentary group or different type of staff, parliamentary
• 29:41
  staff that support committees, I think people sometimes disregard the
• 29:46
  importance of those people and this is expressed in lots of different ways.
• 29:52
  I've had interviews of where people get very, cross because they
• 29:56
  didn't get a reply from the MP, but from their member of staff.
• 30:00
  And I'm thinking, but I mean, that's a bit unrealistic.
• 30:03
  You should actually be really pleased that you've got an individual name there.
• 30:08
  And then I think the other thing people to remember is that these are also people.
• 30:13
  We tend to categorize politicians as this really bad group of people,
• 30:18
  and there's so much negativity now in terms of contacts that MPs get,
• 30:25
  and a lot of the time it's actually the staff who are dealing with it.
• 30:28
  Whereas if you are, if you approach it not in an antagonistic way, but trying to
• 30:33
  be as constructive and courteous as you can, even if you disagree on something,
• 30:39
  you are much more likely to get somewhere.
• 30:44
  I think our discourse is becoming so polarized and so unpleasant.
• 30:49
  I think people sometimes forget that if they are courteous and try to
• 30:52
  engage with those, people, then…
• 30:57
  and remember, they are people.
• 30:59
  They have breakfast, lunch and dinner like you have.
• 31:02
  They have children.
• 31:02
  They have to go on crowded transport.
• 31:04
  They all, they do all those things, and I think just often
• 31:08
  just reminding yourself of that.
• 31:11
  And they get harassed quite a bit in public and online, for the job they do.
• 31:16
  Before we close, I just wanted to hone in on that contact with
• 31:21
  representatives, because we talk a lot about writing to your MP on this podcast.
• 31:28
  Are there things to know other than what you've already said.
• 31:31
  You mentioned courtesy and respect.
• 31:34
  Any other points to make about that approach?
• 31:37
  Because that might often be the way people consider engaging with their
• 31:40
  parliament and, and they might think, "Oh, there's no point writing to my MP."
• 31:45
  I think the more you make it specific to your story and explain why you
• 31:51
  are contacting that person, but also the reason why you're contacting
• 31:55
  that specific person, the better.
• 31:57
  And I think that's really… It may sound a bit redundant, but it's a
• 32:00
  really important piece of advice.
• 32:02
  But also, you're trying to get to them maybe through their
• 32:05
  staff, if you get a name.
• 32:07
  And this applies also to committees in parliament, and you can contact… They
• 32:12
  have staff supporting those committees, and sometimes maybe your best option is
• 32:17
  not necessarily contacting an MP, but it's contacting a group, whether that's
• 32:22
  a committee or whether that might be a service of inquiries in the parliament.
• 32:27
  Most parliaments have a service of inquiries.
• 32:33
  Let's go somewhere else in the world.
• 32:34
  Brazil, for instance, is a great example of parliament, both chambers, where
• 32:39
  they have services where people can even just ring, actually use the phone and
• 32:43
  ask a question and ask for some advice.
• 32:46
  And I think often people don't think of doing that because they think
• 32:49
  it's this abstract institution, and then they think of politicians.
• 32:53
  But actually there's a lot of resources and support there, and
• 32:57
  they do want to hear from you As long as you're not harassing them, being
• 33:02
  aggressive, all of those things.
• 33:03
  Obviously, fine to say you don't agree with them and you want
• 33:09
  them to do something different.
• 33:10
  There's different ways of doing that.
• 33:13
  And is there something finally you'd just like to share that we
• 33:16
  haven't covered on this subject?
• 33:18
  I'd say that we haven't spoken much about, an area that I'm very
• 33:22
  passionate about, which is education on, in politics and outreach.
• 33:28
  And increasingly, parliaments are becoming more active in that area,
• 33:33
  because increasingly it's becoming clear that people don't necessarily know how
• 33:38
  parliaments work or don't necessarily know that they can access them.
• 33:41
  Even with my own students, I teach politics students, and we do a trip to
• 33:47
  parliament, and they're often really surprised that we can go there and
• 33:50
  watch a debate, and anyone can do that.
• 33:53
  And not all parliaments you can do that, but the vast majority
• 33:56
  of parliaments you can do that.
• 33:58
  And so those education and outreach services are really important, and
• 34:04
  maybe I would say your first starting point maybe is a parliament website.
• 34:09
  I know that a lot of them are really bad, but even if they are bad, trying to find
• 34:13
  a contact within education or through outreach and getting that understanding.
• 34:20
  And in some parliaments you can actually get people to come and talk to your group.
• 34:24
  That's another way of doing things.
• 34:26
  So for instance, in Ghana, they have a fantastic public engagement department
• 34:32
  where they do a lot of outreach visits and go and talk to a group of
• 34:36
  fishermen or group of people, from a different region or whatever it may be.
• 34:41
  And they explain how parliament works
• 34:42
  They explain how parliament
• 34:46
  works, they explain how you can have a voice, all of those things.
• 34:50
  That's what those services do.
• 34:52
  You mentioned, in the introduction, you kindly mentioned it about
• 34:56
  me writing practical guides.
• 34:59
  We developed these guides last year in the network that I chaired on
• 35:04
  citizen engagement for parliaments.
• 35:06
  The guides are written for parliaments, thinking of parliaments, but
• 35:10
  obviously they are online, anyone can access them [see show notes].
• 35:12
  And you can see the wide range of possible activities that parliaments have.
• 35:17
  They're on different topics.
• 35:18
  One, there's one on petitions where you'll find lots of examples
• 35:21
  there of petitions internationally.
• 35:23
  But there's also one on education, there's one on engaging underrepresented groups.
• 35:28
  So yes, anyone who's listening to us, if you're really annoyed with something,
• 35:33
  by all means, take an action, ally yourself with civil society, do all those
• 35:37
  things, but also do inquiry whether you can find out more about how parliament
• 35:42
  works or whether you can actually even bring parliament to your classroom,
• 35:46
  to your community, to do something like that to help develop that sense.
• 35:53
  One
• 35:55
  last question from me.
• 35:56
  Is 'Question Time', at Westminster and in the Australian Parliament, is
• 36:01
  that common across parliaments, that moment where the leader of the parties
• 36:06
  are called to the chamber to be called to account and on a regular basis?
• 36:11
  That is such a great question.
• 36:12
  Yes and no.
• 36:14
  So if you asked that about 30 years ago, I would say no.
• 36:18
  It's a very Westminster thing.
• 36:20
  So you see obviously that in Westminster, and then you see that in parliaments
• 36:24
  inspired by Westminster, which are often parliaments within the Commonwealth.
• 36:29
  So Australia's an example, but also, Canada, for instance, another example.
• 36:35
  But many other parliaments have never had that.
• 36:39
  They have other things, and it has become a more popular thing to do.
• 36:43
  So since we mentioned Portugal before, for instance, Portugal
• 36:47
  now has introduced a fortnightly debate with the prime minister.
• 36:52
  So it happens every two weeks, if it happens.
• 36:55
  Doesn't always happen.
• 36:57
  But actually that's a really good example that I've always said to my UK students.
• 37:01
  Say, "You might be very critical of PMQs," - Prime Minister's Question time
• 37:06
  - "but don't disregard what it does." Having a prime minister there every
• 37:09
  week answering questions is actually a privilege to be able to do that.
• 37:14
  Many parliaments don't have that, even democratic parliaments.
• 37:18
  We can discuss whether it's too, you know- Too dramatic, too
• 37:23
  theatrical, all of those things.
• 37:24
  But the fact that it happens every week is in itself quite something.
• 37:28
  I mention it in particular because if you have something similar in
• 37:33
  your parliament, it is a really,
• 37:37
  I would say very engaging and entertaining and illuminating experience.
• 37:44
  Even if you might think, "These people… why don't they focus on
• 37:49
  policy? Why is this all so combative?" And it seems sometimes to be very,
• 37:55
  not personal, but, there's a bit of undercurrent of personality and… You
• 38:01
  might be left a little bit upset by it.
• 38:03
  But I thoroughly recommend trying to locate, if you're going to visit your
• 38:07
  parliament, a moment where there's going to be a full chamber, there's going to
• 38:11
  be a lot of people present, and they're
• 38:14
  debating an issue.
• 38:15
  Because that really brings it to life.
• 38:17
  There's lots of aspects to the heart of democracy and how it works, but it's
• 38:20
  a very important part of democracy.
• 38:23
  And when you see a full chamber like that, alive with debate, it's a visceral
• 38:27
  experience of democracy, would you say?
• 38:30
  It is, absolutely.
• 38:31
  And that's partly why PMQs are interesting.
• 38:35
  Because the Prime Minister's there, the chamber will be full
• 38:38
  and there'll be an atmosphere.
• 38:40
  There'll be lots of other debates which are also really interesting,
• 38:43
  but not, they're not as impassioned or there's not as many people
• 38:45
  there for a wide range of reasons.
• 38:48
  But usually if the Prime Minister's there, it's because it's going
• 38:51
  to be a big debate, and that changes the dynamics of the place.
• 38:58
  Indeed.
• 38:58
  Marvelous, Christina.
• 38:59
  Well, we're so grateful that you could join us, and, we've learned
• 39:02
  a lot, so thank you so much.
• 39:04
  You're very welcome.
• 39:04
  Thank you for inviting me.
• 39:06
  Pleasure.
• 39:06
  Thank you.
• 39:08
  Thank you for joining us today at Save Democracy.