Latest / Speak In Flow / Unlock Your Leadership Potential: Essential Skills for Executive Level-Success with Michelle Ji-Yeun Kim

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Unlock Your Leadership Potential: Essential Skills for Executive Level-Success with Michelle Ji-Yeun Kim · Speak In Flow

0:00
Melinda Lee: Welcome to the Speak In Flow podcast where we
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dive into strategies, techniques to change the way this world
0:07
communicates for the better. I have an amazing leader I can't
0:12
wait for you to meet today. Her name is Michelle J Kim. She's a
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Reb ops leader, as well as the director of sales strategy and
0:20
operations at Zendesk. She also started her very own podcast,
0:25
breaking the tech ceiling. I'm excited for you to meet her. So
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I dive right in and ask her how does she get herself into the
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tech world? Anyways, here we go.
0:37
Michelle J Kim: When I was in college, I was like many people
0:45
trying to figure out like, what is it that I want to do? What's
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my passion? And it was 2008. So part of the you know, there was
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an economic downturn at that point. And I had a dichotomy
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right out two roads diverged in the woods, as thick as Robert
0:59
Frost would say. And I went to DC to see if I could get a job
1:05
on Capitol Hill. But then I also had alum in my Korean
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traditional drumming group, whose sister was looking for
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sales reps. So it was either it's two hands, a hand a bird in
1:21
the hand or two in the bush, right? So at that point, you
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know, just with my kind of my upbringing and my personality,
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more at that time, I would say, I decided to go with a bird in
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the hand versus two in the bush, and gotten an introduction to
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Director of Sales at a tech company named Irene Chang.
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She's, I love her, she's my mentor, she's been my sponsor, I
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just can't say enough good things about her. And everyone
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feels the same about her. And so I interviewed with her. And, you
1:53
know, I definitely was bad at negotiating at the time, and
1:58
speaking up for myself. But you know, she didn't get solid and
2:02
was like, Michelle, no, that's not how much you need to get
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paid more than that. So, you know, I don't think she'll get
2:08
in trouble 15 years later from now, but like, she really has
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shefford shepherded me through the early part of my career, she
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has been someone that I go to Time and again, for career
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advice, and for, you know, help whenever I have a situation at
2:25
work, or my career that I need some mentorship on. But really,
2:31
you know, I've learned over the years that I can't just rely on
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this, go back to the same wall over and over again. So I try to
2:36
give her a reprieve and try to connect with her whenever I can.
2:40
But that's how I got into tech. And just for just for everyone
2:44
to know a little bit about me. It wasn't just sales. So I
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started my career in SAS software, hardware sales. And
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then I went into marketing, and I did programme management. And
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then I did CS or customer success operations. And then
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I've been at Zendesk now for over four years doing sales
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strategy and operations. But I will say that it's been a very
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common theme through my life and my career to have been this is
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very rare, like not a lot of women executives that I talked
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to have had mentors and sponsors in their career that look like
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them. And and in the regard of I've had several Asian and Asian
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American women leaders in my career, I've been very, very
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grateful for that. And it actually stems into or I guess,
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ties into kind of the theme of my life, I grew up in the bay
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area with 10 aunts, blood relative aunts, my mom is one of
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10 kids, she has eight sisters, my dad had two sisters. And, you
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know, we were a very, I've been very lucky to have grown up in a
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very family oriented environment, we would get
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together for barbecues and dinners at my house. And you
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know, another avenue you just, you just never know, with your
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family. I never really never really clicked for me, but I
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actually have an aunt, who is was an SVP at Samsung for many
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years. And so, you know, like, I never really talked to her about
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career pathing when I was younger, so I really encourage
4:18
listeners to think about who's in your environment who's in
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your network, because you just never know, like the people who
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are your you know, if you're a parent, you know, your soccer
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camp, other moms, other dads, you know, like making those
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connections and finding out like, kind people and finding
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those people who, you know, contribute to the world in a
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positive way. I think it's, it's really part of what excites me
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in life. Right?
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Melinda Lee: I mean, it just sounds like you were able to
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capitalise know who the people in your circle are your
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community and it's true. I think that sometimes people
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underestimate how in people they do really know. I mean, they
4:59
don't like Think it's they don't mean just to do that exercise is
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sit down, who can I reach out to or who's in my circle whose
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mind, maybe they think about the immediate circle, or never
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there's probably a tonne of people outside the broader
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circle. And people nowadays I feel like are willing to help
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are willing to especially if you are someone that is just genuine
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lying to people, you know, we just to be surrounded by these
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type of people, and to know who to call to I think people are
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just willing to do that to route. Yeah, I mean, look, we
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use your really relationships to get in the door for work, and
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also learn and have a mentor, which is
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Michelle J Kim: rare. Yeah. And I mean, it was really kind of an
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accident. I mean, I don't think I was very intentional about it
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when I was starting out in my career, but, you know, they say,
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I think I had a Berkeley UC Berkeley professor, say, like
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your six degrees? Or maybe it's like six degrees away from Kevin
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Bacon thing. Yeah, you know, so like, you just never know
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Melinda Lee: who to who never know, especially
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Michelle J Kim: the cousin of the doctor, you know. So, yeah,
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you
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Melinda Lee: want social media and just say, Hi, how are you
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doing? And you just connect? What are your degrees of
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conviction? So tell me so what it sounds like you have a
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fascinating industry, tech, career journey in the tech
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industry, you went through a lot of different different roles,
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and you climbed a ladder in the, in the tech industry. So what
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are the hardest was one of the hardest things in that industry
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as a minority woman leader.
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Michelle J Kim: There's two things I'm going to call out
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that have been a challenge for me personally. So I think in
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general, one of the hardest things about being confident in
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the workplace for myself is self doubt. And I don't know if
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you're familiar with the different types of imposter
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syndrome that exist. And I don't I actually even don't even like
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that expression of imposter syndrome, because I don't think
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it's, it's not a syndrome, it's something that, you know, many
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people feel as a result of, you know, what, pressures we that
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are expected, you know, expectations of us. But, you
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know, I, I have a lot of, quote unquote, impostor syndrome
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around like, not being not knowing enough not being an
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expert. But, you know, I know a lot. I mean, there's a reason
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I've changed roles I've been promoted at Zendesk, I've been
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here, for four years, I got promoted twice within the first
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few years. And so you know, it's not, it's not for nothing. But I
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would say that, as a female, as a Asian American. in tech, it's,
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it's really hard when I have that self doubt, and I'm doing
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everything I can to build my confidence to build my
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competency, so I can feel more competent, because I'm confident
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because that's, you know, where my, where my, where my
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challenges are. But I think two challenges, specifically one is,
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and this is just the case, it's not me calling out good or bad.
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But the majority of leaders that I work with, are white men. And
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I already doubt myself enough. But when there are white men in
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the room, who start to doubt me in a public forum, that's really
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hard. And I take it kind of personally, and I really, I work
8:37
with an executive coach that got mentors, but that's something
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that's been really hard for me to overcome. And I try my best
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to just shake it off, right, dust off your shoulder, get up.
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And don't take things personally. But you know, when
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people question your expertise, and you have to constantly
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reinforce and reiterate that you are the expert, that you have a
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lot of the domain knowledge that you have information that they
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don't, that is exhausting. And then I say the second thing
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that's really hard, is just constantly being interrupted and
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talked over. And I don't think people realise, at least in my
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personal experience, and I can only speak to my experience,
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right? I grew up in a culture where you're not supposed to
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speak over people. You're not supposed to speak back to your
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elders, and it's taken 15 plus years of experience in the
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corporate space to realise you know what, unfortunately,
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sometimes I do have to talk over people, because otherwise I
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won't get heard. And so, you know, I've been told like, I was
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really surprised because I'm someone who's quite vocal, and I
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will share my opinions. And so I've tried very intentionally to
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do less of that sometimes because sometimes it's not
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warranted. But you know, What's conflicting? Right? Because when
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we're the theme is executive presence, you need to speak up
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and be heard. But what's the balance right? When you have
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people who are constant interrupters, people who just go
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on and on and on, it's really hard to get a word. And so I've
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really been intentional about trying to choose my words
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wisely, take pauses, give people time to react, take some time
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before I react. And before I say something, and obviously, I'm
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not perfect, but those are two challenges that I've faced, just
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from like a, you know, my personality and how I have shown
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up in my life prior to gaining more confidence, I would say.
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And just like from a cultural background, right, like, even
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though I'm very much a Americanized person, I was born
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in the United States, my parents immigrated here they met, and
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they had me I was born in the Bay Area. But I'm gonna
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reference Jane Hans book, breaking the bamboo ceiling
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where she talks about, you know, cultural assimilation, which I
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am very much an American. But it takes generations to get past
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the value, values assimilation. So it'll always be hard for me
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to it's not hard, necessarily, but it always will feel a little
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weird to me to kind of like speak over people or like, you
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know, just because I'm not getting a chance to be heard. So
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I think that all plays into executive presence and
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communicating with executive presence, because there's a
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degree of forcefulness that has been traditionally been marked
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or identified or treated to executive presence that I think,
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really thankfully, as I'm seeing more, you know, millennials more
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Gen Z, or people, younger people enter the workforce, that's no
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longer really acceptable. So I'm actually very excited for that
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time when I won't have to force myself into the conversation.
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Yeah. Oh,
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Melinda Lee: my gosh, thank you so much for sharing that. That
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really means a lot. I mean, I think that it's very inspiring,
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because when I met you, but we were at the same conference, we
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kept you know, we hit it off, had a great conversation, it was
12:20
a great conference, and I was one of the speakers. And then
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Michelle and I met, we got a chance to talk and you just
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exude so much confidence, you have you, you're a leader in
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your industry. And then so to hear this backstory, it just,
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it's so inspirational, because we all have this, so it does, it
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helps us not feel alone. Because we have all been there where
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we're trying so hard, we're doing everything that we can
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know, you know, to be the expert in the industry, and then to be
12:45
put on the spot to be able to, to where people are addressing
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or asking you questions to make you seem like you don't know
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things, it's so it can be very tough, and to not be spoken
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over. And so thank you so much to share that so that we
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everybody can all have a connection that way. And so can
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you share what what like any tips, any advice? What are some
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of the techniques that you learned along the way?
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Michelle J Kim: So I would really figure out, what is it
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that stopping you from being confident? Or I guess that is it
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because you just don't know enough? And that could be valid,
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right? Like there are times when you just don't know enough to
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study up, you need to learn, you need to research you need to
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interview people. So for me, I've always like the
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stereotypical, I've always been an excellent student, I learned
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really well in classroom settings. I'm an auditory
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learner. And so, you know, and obviously, like, application is
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important too. But I've been very blessed to have a learning
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style that allows me to learn not necessarily by doing so
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finding out your own learning style and figuring out like, is
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it because I don't know enough? Is it because I'm not
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comfortable with the material? So whatever it is that you're
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not feeling confident in pinpoint? Why is it like
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question yourself, stop yourself. And I'm really proud
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of myself because I would say that for most of my life, I had
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a lot of negative self talk. And it was really unwarranted. Like
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I said, I was like, top of my class, I went to UC Berkeley,
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very successful, outwardly successful person, you know, had
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multiple jobs at like companies like Seagate, LinkedIn, but I
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just never had that confidence in myself. I sat back and I
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asked like, what the heck why?
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Melinda Lee: Right. So this is a clear discernment, right? Is it
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that you don't know enough because sometimes it is the lack
14:50
of knowledge. But then there's other times where you're
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studying and studying and then you just have to stop that.
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There's just so much more that you can continue to study and
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then at They're knowing and having that discernment of I
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know enough for today, and then deciding whether okay, even now
15:06
that I know enough, is it still that I have the lack of
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confidence? Yeah. And I think what
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Michelle J Kim: I really learned is, I'm very confident in my
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ability to learn and figure it out and get, right. So find out
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what your strengths are, find out what will help you shine
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best. What do you enjoy? I think, you know, there's this
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preconception or idea that, you know, maybe it's society, maybe
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it's media, it's like, we have to be all, we all have to be so
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well rounded, we have to be good at everything. No, it's fine to
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like what you like, and it's fine to do more of what you're
15:44
good at, because that will help build your confidence. And I
15:48
really challenged myself to go out of my comfort zone, and try
15:51
different things like how the heck am I supposed to create a
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podcast? Like, you know, this, it really came out of me taking
15:58
a class because my my friend was starting one. And I was like,
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why? No, I've spent a lot of time in the in the fall like
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working really hard at work. And I just decided I want to
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dedicate two hours a week for just a few weeks on how to learn
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this new thing. And that's, that's what started that
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podcast. And like, I just didn't know, and you don't know things
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from at least like I said, for myself, I don't have as much
16:23
confidence. But once I learned, like, Oh, this is this is all
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you need to do. I can do it. And you just try it and you put
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yourself out there. And you know, just in the case of my
16:33
podcast, it's really opened a lot of doors for me. And it's
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really more than that I get messages from strangers, saying,
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oh my gosh, thanks for doing this. This has inspired me or
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like, you know, this was really helpful. So that's really all I
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want to do. I you know, I am very lucky to have found a
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career and a space that I'm thriving in. And so what can I
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do to give back and help others feel that same sense of
17:01
achievement and success? Because it's available to all of us if
17:06
we can access it? Yeah,
17:09
Melinda Lee: yeah. Yeah. So like, you're stretching
17:12
yourself, putting yourself out there. When you're doing
17:14
something fresh, new, you have knowledge you do the studying.
17:17
But once you have that, than just continuing to do yourself,
17:21
the favour of stretching yourself taking the risk, yes,
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it's gonna be uncomfortable, like your podcasts in the
17:27
beginning, it's a little uncomfortable, what am I doing?
17:29
And then eventually you get there, and then the confidence
17:32
builds, and then you're like, oh, okay, I figured that's how
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you do it. It's not too bad. It's very uncomfortable in the
17:38
beginning with anything that we're learning anything new. And
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Michelle J Kim: there's, I think, I just cannot remember
17:45
her name. But she's actually the the, there's a woman, I think
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she's maybe the founder of Girls Who Code, I can't recall. But
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just, I think for women, we as children, specifically, at least
17:59
the United States, we're kind of conditioned right to just be
18:02
perfect to, like, get good grades to be polite. And
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sometimes boys are more encouraged to try and, you know,
18:13
be encouraged to try you know, and so I think that's part of
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how I was conditioned, not necessarily through any fault of
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my mom, or my dad or anything, it's just like the way society
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is. And so for myself, like I said, I've been successful. In
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my academic career, I've been successful in a lot of ways. But
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many times I just always had this fear of failure. And you
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know, what, one day I just decided, like, I need to just
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try to fail more, if that makes sense, because I don't if I'm
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not failing, am I really growing? So, you know, just keep
18:51
you got to keep at it. You got to keep trying new things. And,
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you know, it's a balance of trying to do the things that I
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love that I like that I'm good at, and but also pushing myself
19:02
to do things that I haven't ever done before. or learning about
19:07
things that I don't know about. And just approaching things with
19:11
curiosity rather than worry or fear is something I continue to
19:16
challenge myself to do every day.
19:18
Melinda Lee: Mm hmm. Oh, I love that. Very inspirational. And a
19:23
good reminder, a good, good reason to step out and look at
19:27
not be so afraid of failure. And want to revisit back the the
19:31
conversation you were just mentioning when people talk over
19:34
you or there had been meetings or people would talk over you
19:37
any tips on what would you do in that situation?
19:43
Michelle J Kim: I'm going to cite a person that I learned a
19:48
lot from in terms of executive communication. I used to work
19:54
with Jamie buss who was the SVP of sales North America sales
20:00
Zendesk when I started and she has since moved on. She has a
20:03
CRO now, which is amazing. But I learned from Jamie, that pre
20:09
socialisation is really key. So if you and as an addition, I was
20:15
a programme manager. So you know, running meetings and
20:18
figuring out like power dynamics in the meeting is very important
20:21
and you need to be aware of those things. But if you can set
20:24
yourself up for success in a meeting, so that you've already
20:29
pre socialised with the potential naysayers, you know,
20:32
there are certain people you know them who are going to speak
20:35
up or disagree or be, you know, have grumblings So figuring out
20:39
how can you neutralise that almost not threat, but like
20:42
situation in advance, and be helpful? If you can find your
20:48
allies, like, you know, certain people agree with you, your
20:52
manager is going to be on the call with you? How can you work
20:55
together to reinforce the message? You know, figuring that
20:59
out? I think that's a really good practice to try and do I
21:02
know, we're all so busy that it seems like how do I find the
21:06
time to meet with this individual person before the
21:09
group meeting? But when you're in a group meeting, airtime is
21:13
very valuable? And if you haven't sorted out in advance,
21:18
like what is the purpose of the meeting? What is our goal? What
21:22
is the expectation of the people in the meeting? Are they there
21:25
to contribute ideas? Are they are we there to make a decision?
21:28
Are we there to be informed? I think making a very clear
21:31
purpose for the meeting, if it's yours is really important. So
21:35
those are just some some tips. I would say if you are the meeting
21:39
attendee and it's not your meeting. I think it's hard, it's
21:44
the best you can do is really like if I employed this a few
21:49
times, even just today, you know, if so many people are in
21:54
the meeting, and no one's giving you a chance to talk. I put it
21:57
in as the Zoom chat. Mm hmm. Hopefully, you know, usually
22:01
there will be someone who's like keeping an eye on it. And
22:04
hopefully the most senior person in the room or the meeting owner
22:07
or someone will look at that and acknowledge that. And so that's
22:11
like one way to kind of make your voice heard. And I think as
22:14
a leader, as leaders, yes, we need to set that example, too.
22:19
Because if I'm going on and on and on as a leader, the most
22:23
senior person on the call, and I don't check the chat, or I don't
22:28
notice people's like facial expressions, and I just go on
22:31
and on. Like, you're just what's, what's the whole point?
22:33
That's not executive communication? It's like doing a
22:36
monologue. Yes. I don't know if that's like one tactical helpful
22:42
tip. I think just getting mentorship, I mean, it's all
22:48
just experience, like I'm a really huge proponent of
22:50
mentorship, a part of a free community called Women in
22:53
revenue. And we have, they have a mentorship programme that's
22:58
free. But just talking to people who are good at that, like not
23:03
being talked to her is another tactic, getting some mentorship,
23:07
like if you notice, like you're in a room, Zoom Room with 10
23:11
people. And you know, someone gets talked over and you notice
23:15
that they handle it gracefully. talk to that person, ask them
23:20
for Hey, can I buy you a coffee? And can I chat with you about
23:24
how you dealt with that situation? Because, man, I would
23:27
really love to be able to do that myself. I think that's
23:30
another kind of tactical tip that you can employ as well
23:33
finding a mentor someone in your organisation and your company in
23:37
your team that handles those situations. Well,
23:40
Melinda Lee: right. I think actually, your tips are so
23:43
powerful, too. I mean, I think that there are key and anyone
23:47
who's listening who's struggling with this, just staying in touch
23:50
with what Michelle just said and committed to it. I think we'll
23:54
go it just meeting with the people the pre networking, the
23:57
pre socialisation before any with the naysayers, and then
24:01
also find your allies. Those are huge. And then again, if you're
24:05
still not feeling heard, you can use the chat and then reach out
24:08
to a mentor.
24:09
Michelle J Kim: Yeah, and if it's happening to repeatedly
24:13
Yeah, you know, it could also be just an indication of the
24:17
culture. Right, the culture of the company. Like I'm very
24:22
grateful because Zendesk has a great culture. But yeah, there
24:25
are times you know, to be frank and when that does happen. But
24:29
yeah, really being conscious of like, what environment are you
24:33
in? On a day to day basis? And are you okay with this? Yes.
24:38
And, you know, are people aware, their self awareness is such a
24:42
big part of being a leader and executive presence. They can't
24:46
self diagnose, like, oh, shoot, I made that person feel really
24:50
small by saying things this way. Like that's, that's something
24:54
that, you know, is really important to be cognizant of.
24:59
And You know, what does executive presence mean to me?
25:03
Well, I'm still figuring out but one thing that I want to point
25:07
our listeners to is a Harvard Business Review article called
25:12
The New Rules of executive presence, where they did a
25:16
comparison, it was a study, I think they must have done
25:18
surveys back in 2012. And they did the same kind of survey 10
25:23
years later in 2022. And back, then, you know, I think they
25:28
kind of have a couple of categories, grab a toss,
25:32
communication, and appearance. And things have shifted, like,
25:37
in a good way, you know, 1010 years ago, like, I think
25:41
confidence and decisiveness are still very important parts of
25:44
gravitas, but 10 years ago, pedigree like where you came out
25:48
of school, like that was really important part of your gravitas.
25:52
And now, I'm so excited that this is part of, you know, how
25:57
things are moving. inclusiveness and respect for others are
26:01
actually have replaced Marvel three. And that's important, I
26:08
think, you know, in addition to gravitas, your communication,
26:13
then it was, you know, like I said, being forceful or joking
26:17
or bantering, you know, jokes and banter. And those have gone
26:21
out of trend. And now it's more presence on Zoom. Like, how can
26:25
you communicate well on Zoom effectively with Zoom? Yeah. And
26:29
how do you are you listening to learn? Or are you just like I
26:32
said, it's like, is it forceful? Or are you there to receive and
26:36
actually listen and give your opinion and thoughts on the
26:41
matter in a way that is reflective of actual active
26:46
listening, right. And then, in addition to grab a toss and
26:50
communication, appearance, so like, I just thought it was so
26:55
fascinating, because 10 years ago, people ranked physical
26:59
attractiveness, tallness, slimness as high factors for
27:05
contributing to like, this is what executive presence looks
27:07
like. And I was so happy to see like, 10 years later, that's
27:11
those are not on the list at all. It's actually more
27:15
authenticity. And surprisingly, not just your ability to show up
27:20
in person. But your online presence, like your social media
27:24
presence is also another indicator of executive presence.
27:29
And so I all credit, finding this article through Peter on
27:33
who is a tech sales coach. And yeah, after he shared that
27:38
article, I just was like, wow, this is such a positive thing,
27:43
right? To show that it's evolved so much, even just in 10 years.
27:48
So, you know, that's, that's kind of what you know, I'm
27:51
figuring it out. But I'm really glad to see out in the world
27:56
that things are moving in a direction where it's less what
28:02
is the right word for this less old traditional old school?
28:06
Yeah.
28:07
Melinda Lee: Cold knowledge. Like yes, you it's great to have
28:11
the pedigree and the expertise but I think it just without just
28:15
with that component alone is not sufficient. Absolutely. No.
28:20
Yeah. And I love the authenticity part is in there,
28:23
that's awesome.
28:26
Michelle J Kim: I would say it's kind of a tough spot to be a
28:29
millennial, because you kind of still like the people who are my
28:36
managers and VPs are still there older than me generally. And
28:41
they might still have the older perception of executive
28:46
presence, right executive communication, they might still
28:50
have that there are definitely a lot of great amazing leaders
28:53
I've worked with who are actually trending more toward
28:57
like this new this new definition of executive
29:00
presence. But it's it's a balance of like, okay, how
29:05
authentic can I really be with this person? You know, like,
29:08
because I'm a pretty off like I'm very authentic. It's hard
29:13
for me to hide who I am and I'm so grateful to work with the
29:19
younger generation of Gen Z alpha who are just like they
29:23
love it. They want to be real they want people who are real
29:26
with them in a real be real Yeah, it's a line down so
29:33
Melinda Lee: yeah, to answer that I mean, reflecting back on
29:36
your career and we don't have that much more time but I just
29:39
have so many questions for you we could probably do a part two
29:42
but just Michelle you're you bit your success and you grow you've
29:47
expanded in your role and adopt a new roles like work could you
29:51
credit, your expansion your development, your growth, your
29:57
new climbing up the ladder to is competence or executive presence
30:00
a part of that?
30:02
Michelle J Kim: Yeah. So I always say that Competence and
30:06
Confidence go hand in hand like they really do like for me, you
30:10
cannot, there is no reason you should be confident if you have
30:15
no credibility. Right. Right. So and it's a question of like,
30:19
well, how much is enough? Michelle? And yeah, it's you
30:22
just always have to have that shoshan That beginner's mindset
30:24
always willing to learn and grow? Yeah. So I think for
30:28
myself, even
30:29
Melinda Lee: okay, even as you're beginning to learn and
30:31
grow, still having the confidence. Yeah.
30:35
Michelle J Kim: Which is like, like I said, I've discovered I
30:37
really, I am confident in my ability to learn, yes. So
30:42
figuring out like, what is it you're good at? And how can you
30:45
develop in those areas in like a safer, quote, unquote, safer
30:49
way? Yeah. But really, I will say, of outside of the podcasts,
30:56
which I just said, ended my season one of breaking the tech
30:58
ceiling, where I interview VP and sea level woman and go to
31:02
market tech roles about how to get from director, Senior
31:07
Director to VP, from VP to sea level, in revenue roles. And
31:12
after talking to not just those women, but they almost probably
31:16
100, plus tech executives across many different functions. You
31:23
just don't advance your career unless you're intentional about
31:26
it. And for me, so I do strategy and operations. So thinking
31:31
about my life and my career from a strategy and operations
31:35
perspective, what's the end goal for me? And what are the steps
31:40
for me to take to get to those points. And sometimes you don't
31:44
always need to have like an end goal in mind, maybe it's fine to
31:47
stay where you are, maybe you don't need that promotion. And
31:51
maybe there are other ways to enrich your life, but only you
31:53
can decide what is right for you. So a big part of what I do.
32:00
And what I'm passionate about, is professional development and
32:05
goal setting. And I literally have some I have a F in front of
32:09
me, I have it with me always. It's called the purpose planner,
32:12
I have a planner that I live and die by. And what's really helped
32:16
me I used to have a lot of negative self talk. And I've
32:20
helped quiet that because I write things down. I don't want
32:26
to keep things in my brain, we need to save our brain capacity,
32:30
like processing capacity for important things not, you know,
32:33
I have to remember to pay, do my taxes, I need to remember, like
32:36
these are all things that you can schedule. So I'm I'm very
32:40
much a proponent of planning out your life and your career. And
32:44
this is not for everyone, like really not for everyone. Some
32:48
people hate that. My husband and I are very opposite. He doesn't
32:53
like to have a plan. He won't even tell me when he's coming
32:55
home for dinner. So it's like, someone who's like, I want to
32:59
know what meals I'm having the rest of the week. So it's, you
33:01
know, just it's different for everyone. But for me, that's
33:04
what's worked. Yeah, absolutely. Trying to figure out what can I
33:07
learn. Last year, I had a goal to be a better speaker, public
33:12
speaker. And I took Stanford continuing study classes at
33:15
Stanford Continuing Studies class, a woman named Amy Eliza
33:21
long, she's amazing. And that was so powerful, and like doing
33:25
all these other things. In addition to that, that I won't,
33:28
I won't go into too much detail here. But you know, culminating
33:33
to going to your workshop, Melinda, and you had us all do
33:38
an exercise in small groups. And, like, share, like what was
33:42
like a one minute, like something you're passionate
33:45
about, do one minute little, you know, chat on what you're
33:48
passionate about to your small group. And everyone gives
33:51
feedback. And I was just so proud of myself in that moment,
33:54
because I nailed it. I killed it without any sort of preparation.
33:58
And so, you know, that just really made me happy to be in a
34:02
spot in my life in a skill area that I concentrated on improving
34:10
and seeing it pay out in that way. So yeah, so I really I
34:15
really believe in that the power, right of intentionality
34:20
of planning, like I said, all of those executives that I've
34:23
worked with, when I asked, How did you go from it? Was it an
34:27
accident? No, it was never an accident. There's a lot of
34:30
things that need to go right, in order to go from a director,
34:34
Senior Director to a VP from a VP to sea level. And you know,
34:38
there's different things required at different levels.
34:41
And it's not just going to happen to you can't just sit and
34:44
wait around and pray that you're going to get that promotion.
34:48
Melinda Lee: I agree. I agree. I love that. Yeah, I have the
34:52
intentionality. What are the things that I need to do? How
34:56
can I stretch myself? How can I fail fast and learn Quickly get
35:00
feedback, get a mentor, and move up and not be afraid of those
35:06
things. And then you'll watch yourself just when you focus on
35:09
something like you like, focus on the speaking. And as soon as
35:12
you focus yourself, of course, you're gonna make mistakes along
35:14
the way. But then once you do that, then you can expand and
35:17
then you you look back and you say, oh, my gosh, I did it. And
35:21
now, now we can move on to something else. Yeah,
35:23
Michelle J Kim: and I want to say one, one thing, I, I really
35:27
am a proponent of mentorship. But as I mentioned, at the
35:31
beginning of this conversation, like I don't go to my mentor
35:34
anymore for every single thing, because it's not sustainable. I
35:37
highly recommend people who are serious about career
35:41
progression, find yourself a career coach, find yourself an
35:44
executive coach, and have that person, be your or even find a
35:49
group coaching, right? Worst case go to a better is a better
35:54
a better prop. No better up as a teaching a coach, you got it.
35:59
Got it. That's the worst case study, you can find coaches. But
36:04
if you're serious about career growth and career progression, I
36:09
really recommend finding a coach that will hold you help you hold
36:14
yourself accountable, yes, to do everything for you. But like,
36:18
you know, just for me, that was another big shift in my career
36:23
journey. When I was sponsored for a career career coaching
36:29
programme at Zendesk, it was very lucky for that. Thankful,
36:33
and I'm thankful for it. Because dedicating it was a 30 minute
36:38
call every two weeks. And I always prepared 10 minutes
36:42
before like, it wasn't even like, you know, a long time it
36:45
wasn't an advanced was just literally 10 minutes before that
36:48
call, I sat down and I wrote down, what is it that's going on
36:51
in my career in my role in my life that I want to talk to
36:55
about this coach. And that really helped accelerate things
37:01
for me. You know, it's not, I always talk about mentorship.
37:06
But it's not enough. Like if you really want to invest in
37:10
yourself, it'll pay off into this now. Yeah, first that
37:16
Melinda Lee: I totally Yeah, because it gets it out of the
37:18
head, you have so many bounced, you know, somebody you trust
37:21
that you can bounce ideas off of, and just support you along
37:25
your journey along the obstacles and kind of overcoming them. And
37:28
so, I love that. Thank you so much, Michelle, I had so much
37:33
fun with you. Thank you, lots of great insight. I learned a lot.
37:39
I trust that the listeners got some really good golden
37:43
takeaways. And so really appreciate your time, Michelle,
37:46
your leadership, your expertise and helping us grow. Think about
37:50
executive communication and how to break that glass ceiling,
37:53
whether in the tech industry or whether in any industry, I think
37:56
that you've got some good nuggets from Michelle today. So
37:59
thank you,
37:59
Michelle J Kim: thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I
38:01
really, really thoughtful. And I really hope people become
38:06
intentional about how they want to spend their time on this
38:09
earth. And it doesn't have to be your career. Just Just know that
38:14
just figure out what it is that's right for you in this
38:17
time. To change you can change your mind. But you know, don't
38:22
stress out so much. This is kind of like the parting advice that
38:25
I would give
38:27
Melinda Lee: to what are the memories that you want to have
38:29
hold for yourself? Yeah, to take away. Oh, thank you so much. And
38:36
thank you, dear listeners for joining me until the next time I
38:40
see you Take care. Bye bye