Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / "Foxy Knoxy" Amanda Knox 6 years free after roomies brutal murder

Transcript

"Foxy Knoxy" Amanda Knox 6 years free after roomies brutal murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
0:03
Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
0:09
Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
0:12
Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
0:17
Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Mora Murray Saturday's seven
0:23
Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eight Central on Oxygen, the new
0:28
Speaker 1: network for crime Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
0:37
Speaker 1: x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. In an ancient
0:41
Speaker 1: Italian phil tone, the life of a young foreign exchange
0:44
Speaker 1: student ends and fighters, and the life of another is
0:47
Speaker 1: forever linked to the crime. Amanda Knox would be convicted.
0:50
Speaker 1: I was afraid of Blaine Stane. She contemplated suicide. If
0:54
Speaker 1: I'm in a dye in prison, no matter what, do
0:56
Speaker 1: I want that to be the one thing that I
0:58
Speaker 1: have that's on my terms. Samanda is free. Amanda's name
1:02
Speaker 1: is finally keyed or is it the dud student is
1:05
Speaker 1: on trial again. I did not believe that I would
1:09
Speaker 1: be going to say, did you kill Meredith? Now? I
1:13
Speaker 1: did not kill Meredith. I wish that question didn't have
1:20
Speaker 1: to be asked. A twenty one year old British student,
1:26
Speaker 1: Meredith Kircher found brutally murdered in her apartment. What went wrong?
1:33
Speaker 1: Still so many unsettling questions. It's all about Amanda Knox,
1:40
Speaker 1: the U S student who was studying abroad who was
1:44
Speaker 1: roped into a murder charge. Many people still believing that
1:50
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox took part in some way in the murder
1:54
Speaker 1: of her roommate, Meredith Kircher. She says, no way. I mean,
1:58
Speaker 1: it's grace, this is crying stories. Thank you for being
2:01
Speaker 1: with us. What is the truth? Joining me and Bremner,
2:06
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Seattle that has had many,
2:09
Speaker 1: many dealings with Amanda Knox's family, Also with me from
2:14
Speaker 1: k I n G t V investigative reporter Linda Byron
2:18
Speaker 1: who interviewed Amanda Knox. Also from l A. Dr Bethany
2:23
Speaker 1: Marshall's psycho analyst, and of course Alan Duke, the Duke
2:26
Speaker 1: joining me out of l A. It is the case
2:29
Speaker 1: that never really seemed to be put to rest. Why
2:33
Speaker 1: Why does so many people still believe Amanda Knox brutally
2:39
Speaker 1: murdered her young roommate, Meredith Kircher, Let's go through the
2:43
Speaker 1: facts as we know them about the scene of the
2:47
Speaker 1: crime and the timeline of when Meredith was murdered. A
2:51
Speaker 1: lot of people don't even know Meredith Kircher's name, but
2:54
Speaker 1: they do know Amanda Knox his name. Let's start at
2:58
Speaker 1: the beginning. Linda Byron k I n G TV. Tell
3:02
Speaker 1: me about the day, the evening that Meredith Kircher was Well,
3:07
Speaker 1: we know that Meredith Kircher had gone to a Halloween party. Um,
3:12
Speaker 1: we know that Amanda and Rafaeli said that they were
3:16
Speaker 1: in their apartment that night, uh, and that they were
3:20
Speaker 1: hanging out. She was supposed to work and got a
3:22
Speaker 1: text that she didn't need to work, so they decided
3:25
Speaker 1: they were going to spend the evening. Hold On, hold on,
3:27
Speaker 1: We're talking about the U S student Amanda Knox and
3:31
Speaker 1: her boyfriend Rafael Salcito. They were there in the apartment
3:37
Speaker 1: that Amanda shared with Meredith. Is that right? So they
3:39
Speaker 1: were in his apartment. I mean, this is the hardest apartment. Correct.
3:42
Speaker 1: I thought you said her apartment. Okay. Amanda and RAFAELI
3:46
Speaker 1: said that they spent the evening in his apartment and
3:50
Speaker 1: that they didn't really go out. They watched a movie
3:52
Speaker 1: on the computer. In, they made dinner. She was supposed
3:56
Speaker 1: to work and she did not have to go in.
3:59
Speaker 1: She got a text from her boss. Wait a minute,
4:01
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, I thought she told cops they smoked
4:03
Speaker 1: wade and she had sex. Yes, she did, so let
4:05
Speaker 1: me back up. So Amanda was supposed to go to
4:08
Speaker 1: work at the bar that she worked at UM with
4:11
Speaker 1: Patrick Lamuba. She got a text saying it's slow. You
4:15
Speaker 1: don't have to come in. She texted back, okay, see
4:18
Speaker 1: you later. She was excited. She told Rafaeli Solecha to
4:21
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, I don't have to go to work, they said,
4:24
Speaker 1: except the evening in his apartment UM, they smoked some marijuana,
4:29
Speaker 1: they had sex, they had dinner, they watched a movie,
4:33
Speaker 1: and the next day she goes back to her apartment
4:35
Speaker 1: that she shared with the British roommates and an Italian woman.
4:39
Speaker 1: You say, the British woman, you're talking about Meredith Kircher,
4:42
Speaker 1: the twenty one year old. That's right, that's right, yes,
4:46
Speaker 1: so Meredith Kircher. Meredith Kircher had gone to a Halloween party,
4:50
Speaker 1: had come home and was alone. Amanda Knox came in
4:54
Speaker 1: after spending the evening with her boyfriend, and she took
4:58
Speaker 1: a shower. She noticed some blood in the bathroom. She
5:02
Speaker 1: did not, um, immediately think that something terrible was wrong,
5:07
Speaker 1: she said. She told me that she saw this blood,
5:10
Speaker 1: but it was a little bit. She thought someone might
5:12
Speaker 1: have cut themselves. Um. And she went back to Raffaelis
5:18
Speaker 1: and they had a discussion, and she told him she
5:20
Speaker 1: thought things were strange. UM. Okay, wait a minute. So
5:24
Speaker 1: she sees blood and didn't she try Merediths room and
5:28
Speaker 1: the door was locked from the inside. That happened after
5:30
Speaker 1: she came back with Raffaeli Selecito, she left, they came back,
5:34
Speaker 1: they tried the door, the door was locked. I think
5:37
Speaker 1: that's when they really truly became suspicious. Now I'm basing this,
5:41
Speaker 1: of course, on all of what I heard in the
5:42
Speaker 1: courtroom and the court transcripts. And so she sees blood
5:47
Speaker 1: and the door to meredith room is locked on the inside,
5:52
Speaker 1: and I believe they called Meredith, or she calls Meredith
5:55
Speaker 1: and she won't answer her cell phone, which is highly unusual. Yes,
5:58
Speaker 1: because Mary, So we're talking about blood in the bathroom.
6:02
Speaker 1: How much blood was in the bathroom? Not a large amount, um,
6:05
Speaker 1: small amount in the sink. There was a small on
6:07
Speaker 1: the on the rug and so yes, most people would say, wow,
6:14
Speaker 1: that's really suspicious. Now, she hadn't tried meredith story yet.
6:17
Speaker 1: She left, went back to Rafaelis. They came back, they
6:21
Speaker 1: tried the door, and about that time, the postal police
6:24
Speaker 1: were showing up. And the postal police showed up because
6:27
Speaker 1: Meredith's cell phones had been found and they're the ones
6:30
Speaker 1: who investigate. Her phones had been tossed aside um in
6:35
Speaker 1: kind of a wooded area not far from the apartment.
6:38
Speaker 1: That's when they come in, stick the door down, and
6:43
Speaker 1: Meredith Mereth is under a dube cover and it's a
6:46
Speaker 1: bloody mess in the room and it's obvious that, you know,
6:48
Speaker 1: a terrible murder has occurred. Wow, were there any other
6:54
Speaker 1: signs outside of Meredith's room beside uh bare amount of
6:59
Speaker 1: blood in the bathroom that Amanda Knox saw. Was there
7:02
Speaker 1: anything else askew or a miss? The front door was
7:06
Speaker 1: askew when Amanda came home, which should have raised suspicion,
7:10
Speaker 1: but that doors sometimes apparently didn't shut well. That door
7:14
Speaker 1: was askew, and there was also some feces in the
7:17
Speaker 1: toilet and that seemed odd because the girls were pretty
7:22
Speaker 1: good about making sure that they would flush the toilet.
7:25
Speaker 1: So later put together, all of those things certainly look suspicious.
7:29
Speaker 1: Um once that door was kicked in, it was obvious
7:34
Speaker 1: that Meredith had been murdered. Her foot was sticking out
7:36
Speaker 1: from under the dubet, and the police investigation, of course
7:40
Speaker 1: begins at that point and Bremner joining me, high profile
7:43
Speaker 1: lawyer out of Seattle and lawyer for friends of Amanda Knox,
7:48
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for being with us, along
7:50
Speaker 1: with Linda and Dr Bethany Marshall. You know, this is
7:55
Speaker 1: one of the many reasons that people to this day
7:58
Speaker 1: believe Amanda Knox was somehow involved in meredith murder. Uh
8:03
Speaker 1: Number one. She and the boyfriend, Rafaela Selcito couldn't seem
8:08
Speaker 1: to get their stories straight at the beginning. Their stories
8:12
Speaker 1: differed over and over and over. The coming home to
8:16
Speaker 1: find the blood, the cell phone, not answering the door lock,
8:21
Speaker 1: the front door askew, and not calling police. That disturbed people.
8:27
Speaker 1: The day after her roommate is raped and brutally brutally
8:33
Speaker 1: stab dead, she is seen on close circuit TV, you know,
8:37
Speaker 1: video surveillance in the store I think it was called bubbles,
8:40
Speaker 1: laughing and snuggling and kissing, Solcto buying lingeriate by underwear.
8:47
Speaker 1: And at the police station she was laughing and joking,
8:54
Speaker 1: I believe with the boyfriend at the police station. This
8:57
Speaker 1: is after her roommate has been murdered. And then of course,
9:03
Speaker 1: and there's the it has been repeated over and over
9:08
Speaker 1: where she tells police that she recalls hearing Meredith screaming
9:14
Speaker 1: for her life, but she just put her hands over
9:18
Speaker 1: her ears. You know, it brings back Amber Emner and
9:20
Speaker 1: you and I lived through this together. When O. J.
9:22
Speaker 1: Simpson said he had a dream that he killed Nicole.
9:25
Speaker 1: You know, I've never dreamed that I killed anybody yet anyway, um,
9:29
Speaker 1: but I'm not saying it couldn't happen. But I've never
9:32
Speaker 1: dreamed that. I never thought of sat amound and thought
9:34
Speaker 1: of the perfect way to die, unless I'm writing a
9:36
Speaker 1: murder mystery. But she definitely said that she dreamed, or
9:42
Speaker 1: she recalls she couldn't make sure if she was in
9:45
Speaker 1: a feuge state or she was having a dream that
9:47
Speaker 1: she recalls hearing Meredith screaming for her life in the
9:49
Speaker 1: next room, and she just put her hands over her ears. See,
9:52
Speaker 1: a lot of people have a problem with that. Anne.
9:54
Speaker 1: That was, of course an interrogation in a different language.
9:57
Speaker 1: She didn't speak Italian back down, although she testified Italian
10:00
Speaker 1: far far later, white what white, white white? She lived
10:04
Speaker 1: in Italy and she did speak Italian, and she texted
10:08
Speaker 1: an Italian. She worked in an Italian bar well, so
10:11
Speaker 1: she did speak to go from Rooti mentary Italian to
10:15
Speaker 1: you know, basically talking about an alleged homicide of her
10:18
Speaker 1: at the primary suspect. But and you know how much
10:21
Speaker 1: I respect to you is you know, you're a very
10:24
Speaker 1: renowned legal expert. But ann plase please, But I'm not
10:29
Speaker 1: saying I'm jumping on the bandwagon. But you can't live
10:32
Speaker 1: in Italy with an Italian boyfriend and worked in a
10:35
Speaker 1: bar and you've been living there for a period of
10:37
Speaker 1: time and say you don't know Italian. The one time
10:40
Speaker 1: you tell police, yeah I heard my roommate screaming for
10:42
Speaker 1: her life and I put my hands over my ears.
10:44
Speaker 1: That's the one time you don't know what you're saying, Nancy.
10:47
Speaker 1: She knew her boyfriend for a week. I just spent
10:48
Speaker 1: time with him at a confidence in Europe. But the
10:50
Speaker 1: thing is basically she was she was she a week,
10:53
Speaker 1: but she she had said they said, imagine, imagine if
10:57
Speaker 1: you were there, what would you have done? Then she says,
11:00
Speaker 1: if I was like a theoretical I would have covered
11:02
Speaker 1: my ears with screams. The second part of it is
11:04
Speaker 1: she was interrogated for a long period of time. In fact,
11:06
Speaker 1: part of it was thrown out because she didn't have
11:08
Speaker 1: a lawyer and she didn't have a certified interpreter, you know.
11:11
Speaker 1: And then also she said struck her during the interrogation,
11:13
Speaker 1: and then she's maintained that all along. So that and
11:16
Speaker 1: all the other issues raised about making faces, you know,
11:19
Speaker 1: are acting quirky, that's not probably caused to believe someone
11:21
Speaker 1: committed a homicide. And finally on the lingerie, her house
11:24
Speaker 1: was a crime scene. She wasn't buying the lingerie like
11:26
Speaker 1: the tabloid said, she was just getting items. And finally,
11:34
Speaker 1: whatever you want to say, didn't have right. Okay, you
11:36
Speaker 1: can call it whatever you want to call it, but
11:37
Speaker 1: it doesn't implicate her in a a homicide. I'll say. So
11:40
Speaker 1: she had to go out to Victoria's secrets and my
11:42
Speaker 1: enderwear it was bubbles. It was bubble, okay, But the
11:47
Speaker 1: thing is Nancy. She also, I'm just going to call
11:50
Speaker 1: that probably cause, and the U they called that probably cause.
11:55
Speaker 1: But when they were kissing in front of the house,
11:58
Speaker 1: the next frange shows them looking to sponded Craft and
12:01
Speaker 1: and Amanda. So you know, all the things that are
12:04
Speaker 1: tiktof saying the shows them lists saying that she did
12:07
Speaker 1: this are also completely consistent with and Linda Byron was
12:10
Speaker 1: jumping in, jumping in Linda. If you look at the
12:12
Speaker 1: if you look at the yeah, I want to jump
12:15
Speaker 1: in on this um this statement you made that she
12:18
Speaker 1: says that she was in the apartment when she heard
12:20
Speaker 1: her remate screaming for her life, etcetera. Because what really
12:23
Speaker 1: happened there was after hours and hours and hours of
12:26
Speaker 1: this interrogation, she signed a confession at one at one
12:31
Speaker 1: forty five in the morning and then another one at
12:33
Speaker 1: five forty five in the morning. But to call them
12:35
Speaker 1: confessions is really not very accurate if you look at
12:38
Speaker 1: what she said, especially at forty five. By the way,
12:41
Speaker 1: this was thrown out by the Supreme Court as being
12:44
Speaker 1: a coerce statement. She said, I do not remember anything.
12:47
Speaker 1: I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith
12:50
Speaker 1: was screaming. At a certain point, I heard Meredith screaming.
12:53
Speaker 1: I plugged my ears. I imagined, I imagined what could
12:57
Speaker 1: have happened. That's why you say that again, Linda, Linda Byron,
13:02
Speaker 1: who has had an in depth interview with Amanda Knox,
13:05
Speaker 1: could you repeat that again for me exactly what she said?
13:08
Speaker 1: This is. This is the statement from five in the morning,
13:11
Speaker 1: after she has been deprived of food and water, after
13:15
Speaker 1: she's been screamed at by people who come one after
13:17
Speaker 1: another into the room, and after she says she was
13:21
Speaker 1: told imagine what would have what might have happened? What
13:24
Speaker 1: could have happened? She says, I cannot remember. Repeatedly through
13:28
Speaker 1: this statement, she says, at a certain point, I heard
13:31
Speaker 1: Meredith screaming, and as I was scared, I plugged up
13:33
Speaker 1: my ears. I am very confused. I do not remember
13:37
Speaker 1: if Meredith is screaming and if I heard thuds because
13:39
Speaker 1: I was upset, I imagined what could have happened. That
13:43
Speaker 1: to me is not a decisive That is not a
13:46
Speaker 1: decisive confession. Well, okay, first of all, you said confession.
13:52
Speaker 1: I said statement. And here is Linda Byron as she
13:56
Speaker 1: is interviewing Amanda Knox, listen. Meredith's family is still mourning
14:01
Speaker 1: her death, and to this day believe Amanda was involved.
14:05
Speaker 1: We asked her about that did you kill Meredith? I
14:10
Speaker 1: did not kill Meredith. I wish that question didn't have
14:16
Speaker 1: to be asked. In her recently published memoir, she looks
14:20
Speaker 1: even younger than I remember her, Knox wrote that she
14:23
Speaker 1: felt close to Meredith the first night I went there.
14:26
Speaker 1: She took me out to pizza with all of her friends.
14:28
Speaker 1: She was very kind and very smart, and she didn't
14:32
Speaker 1: quite know yet what she wanted to do with her life.
14:35
Speaker 1: They confided in each other. She said she either wanted
14:38
Speaker 1: to be a journalist like her dad, or she wanted
14:41
Speaker 1: to maybe go into like international relations. She was still
14:44
Speaker 1: figuring herself out, and in the same way, I felt
14:47
Speaker 1: the same way, like I was there also to figure
14:50
Speaker 1: myself out. I thought, Oh, I'll be an interpreter and
14:52
Speaker 1: I'll be a world traveler and it'll be awesome. Those
14:56
Speaker 1: dreams were crushed when Meredith was murdered and Amanda named
15:01
Speaker 1: as her killer. I was arrested before I was even
15:04
Speaker 1: able to really come to terms with the fact that
15:06
Speaker 1: she was dead. My lawyer showed me her autopsy photos
15:12
Speaker 1: in prison in preparation for what I was going to
15:16
Speaker 1: have to go through in court. I I was devastated,
15:24
Speaker 1: and I was unprepared even then, months and months and
15:27
Speaker 1: months after my even imprisonment, after all of those times
15:31
Speaker 1: where they talk about knives and they talk about lovers,
15:33
Speaker 1: and they talk about Rudy good day and they and
15:35
Speaker 1: they're talking about all of it, and this case is happening,
15:37
Speaker 1: and yet you still are not even coming to terms
15:40
Speaker 1: of it. Then, I actually had a friend who was murdered,
15:45
Speaker 1: and I've had to defend myself against allegations of being
15:52
Speaker 1: responsible for that instead of being able to come to
15:56
Speaker 1: terms with that and to grieve and to find closure.
15:59
Speaker 1: And I think about her most of all um when
16:03
Speaker 1: I think about her family. I've never really had the
16:06
Speaker 1: chance to ever meet her family, and the conditions of
16:12
Speaker 1: their coming into contact with me ever were always through
16:16
Speaker 1: the courtroom. I want to see Meredith's grave. I want
16:22
Speaker 1: to be there, and I want to actually be able
16:26
Speaker 1: to say goodbye to her. To psychoanalyst Dr Bethany Marshall
16:30
Speaker 1: for her to say, I think this is what causes
16:33
Speaker 1: a lot of people to still believe Amanda Knox was
16:37
Speaker 1: in the apartment when her roommate was murdered. Um it
16:42
Speaker 1: because to say I can't remember. And then I heard
16:48
Speaker 1: Meredith screaming. I'm confused. I'm confused. I imagine what could
16:55
Speaker 1: have happened in there. She's not saying I imagined or
16:58
Speaker 1: I dreamed I heard her scream She said, I heard
17:02
Speaker 1: Meredith screaming. Well, but wasn't this an Italian So that's
17:08
Speaker 1: a very nuanced communication. I imagined I heard her screaming
17:12
Speaker 1: rather than I heard her screaming. Or imagine what it
17:15
Speaker 1: would have been like if she was screaming if she
17:17
Speaker 1: did not speak fluent Italian. She said, no, I just
17:22
Speaker 1: had Linda Byron say twice in a row. She said,
17:27
Speaker 1: I'm confused. I'm confused. I heard Meredith screaming. I imagine
17:35
Speaker 1: what was happening. Well, if she was in her boyfriend's apartment,
17:39
Speaker 1: which was a five minute walk away, she could not
17:41
Speaker 1: have heard her screaming. If she was in the house,
17:44
Speaker 1: obviously she would have heard her screaming. My understanding is
17:48
Speaker 1: that she was in the boyfriend's house, spent the night.
17:51
Speaker 1: They smoked a joint, she had sex, they watched a movie.
17:54
Speaker 1: She walked home the next morning, she gives a conflicting
17:58
Speaker 1: statement to the police. But what I know is that
18:01
Speaker 1: when somebody has experienced a horrible trauma, and I think
18:05
Speaker 1: witnessing a scene like this would qualify as a trauma,
18:10
Speaker 1: they can say things that are conflicting. I do believe
18:13
Speaker 1: that can happen. You know that's interesting, Bethany, because um,
18:17
Speaker 1: I've never heard anybody that sees a murder saying suddenly
18:22
Speaker 1: say I heard them screaming. I've never seen that happen.
18:25
Speaker 1: If you come upon a murder sing and then go
18:28
Speaker 1: out and buy lingerate now to see that, I'm like you,
18:32
Speaker 1: I don't know what happened, but I can tell you
18:35
Speaker 1: that those facts are very troubling. And am Bremner, who's
18:39
Speaker 1: not just a friend, who is a colleague, has worked
18:42
Speaker 1: with Amanda's family and his lawyer related to a meant
18:47
Speaker 1: friend of Amanda an Ox, And that's why I have
18:49
Speaker 1: her here today. And I mean, I think that looks bad.
18:54
Speaker 1: Now I know the status of the case. The Italian
18:57
Speaker 1: High Court has exonerated her. Yes, but I'm telling you
19:01
Speaker 1: those facts are very troubling. Anne. Nobody can say those
19:04
Speaker 1: facts are not troubling. You know. The fact is they
19:06
Speaker 1: asked her to imagine what happened, and that's why she
19:09
Speaker 1: said she imagined it. This was after brow beating her
19:12
Speaker 1: in a foreign language we've already talked about and without
19:14
Speaker 1: an interpreter, and of course this is thrown out. She
19:16
Speaker 1: also recanted what she had to say. Are you saying
19:18
Speaker 1: they browbeat her because they didn't give her anything to eat?
19:21
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one o'clock in the morning, why would they.
19:24
Speaker 1: Let's get down to what this case was really about
19:26
Speaker 1: me and seeing that was there were no forensics. They
19:28
Speaker 1: had two lotems they said that they connected her to
19:30
Speaker 1: the crime. Those are found to be inadmissible, compromise and
19:32
Speaker 1: contaminated by independent experts appointed by a judge. The highest
19:36
Speaker 1: court in Italy. Didn't just say she was not guilty.
19:39
Speaker 1: They said she was exonerated, that this was a travesty,
19:42
Speaker 1: that she'd been through this. So we can go back
19:44
Speaker 1: and we can look at what she said when they
19:45
Speaker 1: asked her to imagine, you know, what would have happened
19:48
Speaker 1: had she been there? And she complies and she says
19:50
Speaker 1: that and she says she's confused. You know, it's a
19:52
Speaker 1: whole lot of nothing in this case, but it's a
19:54
Speaker 1: whole lot of what led her to serve four years
19:56
Speaker 1: in prison for a crime she didn't commit. And that's
19:59
Speaker 1: the bottom line. And land course confessions there, we know
20:01
Speaker 1: they happen all over the place. I want to pause
20:04
Speaker 1: very quickly and thank our partner as we continue to
20:07
Speaker 1: argue about Amanda Knox again, the Italian High Court has
20:12
Speaker 1: exonerated her and she's here in the US. In fact,
20:16
Speaker 1: she just signed a three point eight million dollar book deal.
20:19
Speaker 1: She is here. I want to thank our partner, and
20:22
Speaker 1: that partner is legal Zoom. When you run your own business,
20:28
Speaker 1: you know time equals money. That's not just an old saying,
20:32
Speaker 1: it's true. So why waste your valuable time dealing with
20:36
Speaker 1: issues legal Zoom can help with. You may already know
20:39
Speaker 1: over two million people have used a legal Zoom to
20:42
Speaker 1: start their businesses. But legal Zoom services don't end there.
20:46
Speaker 1: Running a business comes with taxes, contracts, hiring employees, basically
20:51
Speaker 1: a lot of fine print. And that is why legal
20:54
Speaker 1: Zoom built a network of independent lawyers their license in
20:58
Speaker 1: all fifty states to provide you the advice you need
21:01
Speaker 1: to get through the daily grind of running a business,
21:04
Speaker 1: and you don't have to worry about a billable hours.
21:07
Speaker 1: Legal zoom is not a law firm. Instead, you can
21:10
Speaker 1: count on upfront pricing and clarity. So invest your time
21:13
Speaker 1: and money and growing your business. Let legal Zoom help
21:17
Speaker 1: with the legal stuff. For special savings, be sure to
21:19
Speaker 1: enter promo code Nancy in a n c Y in
21:22
Speaker 1: the referral box at check out for special savings only
21:25
Speaker 1: at legal zoom dot com. Legal zoom dot com with
21:35
Speaker 1: me high profile Seattle lawyer and Bremner Linda Byron investigative reporter,
21:40
Speaker 1: Bethanie Marshall, excuse me, Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalist joining me
21:44
Speaker 1: out of l A. And Alan Duke the Duke joining
21:47
Speaker 1: me out of l A as well. Take a listen
21:51
Speaker 1: to what the Italian prosecutor says. The principal evidence was
21:59
Speaker 1: mixed UG traces from which were extracted mixed DNA of
22:02
Speaker 1: a mandan meritidista. The only explanation for that mix is
22:07
Speaker 1: that Amanda was bleeding and touched objects that were covered
22:10
Speaker 1: in meredis blood. Jet didn't there's no other explanation. To
22:18
Speaker 1: Linda Byron, investigative reporter, Linda, you disagree. You have had
22:23
Speaker 1: a chance to meet an interview in debt with Amanda Ox.
22:27
Speaker 1: You disagree with A prosecutor explained to me your position.
22:31
Speaker 1: What I can tell you from covering these trials and
22:33
Speaker 1: sitting in the courtroom and listening to the prosecution and
22:35
Speaker 1: the defenses, that the prosecution had no solid evidence of
22:40
Speaker 1: any ever presented. And here's one of the things that
22:43
Speaker 1: really bothered me, the evolving motive. Initially the prosecutors saying
22:48
Speaker 1: that this was some kind of satanic right because um
22:52
Speaker 1: Raffaeli Selecito had been interested in these kind of dark
22:57
Speaker 1: comics in which vampires are hunted and killed and their
23:01
Speaker 1: female vampires and the Meredith had dressed for the Halloween
23:05
Speaker 1: party that night. Uh later the motive evolves again. Now
23:09
Speaker 1: at the drug field sex game. No evidence put forward
23:12
Speaker 1: for that, either when that was shown or when that
23:15
Speaker 1: was countered so strongly enough the pause, white a minute,
23:17
Speaker 1: White a minute. I need to understand something. Was Meredith
23:20
Speaker 1: Kircher closed, unclosed or partially closed when her body was
23:24
Speaker 1: found she was partially closed. Okay, so she's partially closed.
23:30
Speaker 1: She had been raped and she was covered in blood.
23:33
Speaker 1: I could kind of see where prosecutors got the idea
23:36
Speaker 1: some sort of sex attack that happened did happen because
23:39
Speaker 1: somebody was convicted of rape and murder, and that would
23:43
Speaker 1: be the guy from the I an attack, but but
23:46
Speaker 1: a sex game, a sex game that Meredith refused to
23:50
Speaker 1: protect that. The theory was this, that Amanda and her
23:54
Speaker 1: boyfriend wanted to do something fun and different and exciting
23:57
Speaker 1: and extreme, and they decided that they were to have
24:00
Speaker 1: this sexual tryst with Meredith Kercher, and when Meredith refused
24:03
Speaker 1: to participate, they slid her through out and killed her.
24:07
Speaker 1: This isn't what you're talking about. Is a motive we
24:10
Speaker 1: see all the time from her, and that is rapes
24:13
Speaker 1: often leads to murder because they want to cover up
24:16
Speaker 1: the crime. The prosecutor called this a drug field sex game.
24:20
Speaker 1: Then when that was countered in court, it became that
24:23
Speaker 1: theory sort of drifted away, and it became Meredith was
24:27
Speaker 1: such a wonderful, sweet, innocent girl that Amanda hated her
24:31
Speaker 1: and this was about This is about hate, and Amanda
24:34
Speaker 1: had bad bathroom habits and she was tired of her
24:37
Speaker 1: roommates bothering her about those kinds of things. And then
24:40
Speaker 1: it was about money. No, maybe Amanda's killed Meredith for money.
24:44
Speaker 1: This is what bothered me is the prosecution did not
24:47
Speaker 1: find a motive stick with the motive. It was an
24:50
Speaker 1: evolving motive every time something didn't fit. In fact, at
24:53
Speaker 1: one point the knife they had the knife, the murder knife,
24:57
Speaker 1: allegedly didn't fit the stablemnce, so the prosecutor or said
25:00
Speaker 1: there were two knives. That is not the way I
25:04
Speaker 1: have seen good solid trials produce evidence that lead to conviction. Well,
25:09
Speaker 1: I can say this, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, that motives evolve.
25:15
Speaker 1: So the fact that the prosecution I mean the Satanic
25:18
Speaker 1: cult things sounds kind of outlandish to me. I don't
25:20
Speaker 1: believe I would have mentioned that, but I mean you
25:23
Speaker 1: find out during an investigation, during a trial, you find
25:27
Speaker 1: out evolving motives. Luckily, in the United States, you don't
25:30
Speaker 1: have to show a motive to a jury. You have
25:32
Speaker 1: to prove who did it and you know the date
25:35
Speaker 1: essentially um the general date. You have to show jurisdiction,
25:40
Speaker 1: and you have to show the murder and who did
25:42
Speaker 1: it bam. We are not expected to crawl into the
25:45
Speaker 1: mind of a killer and figure out what they were thinking,
25:48
Speaker 1: but juries like to hear motives motives evolve. You may
25:52
Speaker 1: think a case, a murder is because of one thing,
25:55
Speaker 1: and then the more you investigate, you find out something else.
25:58
Speaker 1: So a changing ODO doesn't concern me. What does concern
26:02
Speaker 1: me is that another guy I believe was unrelated to
26:07
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, and that would be the Rudy Rudy Gooday
26:13
Speaker 1: from the Ivory Coast who was found guilty give sex
26:17
Speaker 1: assault and murder of Meredith Kircher. Now does that and
26:21
Speaker 1: it was his DNA all over the room and all
26:23
Speaker 1: over the That is a concern to me. That is
26:26
Speaker 1: a hard fact to me. That suggests Amanda Knox is
26:31
Speaker 1: not guilty. But I still have her claiming I put
26:35
Speaker 1: my hands over my ears. I heard her screaming in
26:37
Speaker 1: the next room. That makes me think that she was
26:40
Speaker 1: there at the time. Okay, that that's where I'm coming from.
26:43
Speaker 1: I've never ever thought Amanda Knox took a knife and
26:48
Speaker 1: stab Meredith Kircher. But because of her own statements, I
26:52
Speaker 1: can't get away from the fact that she says she
26:54
Speaker 1: heard here's her screaming. Now, can that be explained to weight? Maybe?
26:58
Speaker 1: But this guy has been found guilty. His his sentence
27:03
Speaker 1: has been reduced to just sixteen years for rape and murder.
27:06
Speaker 1: I met Marenath Krocher's family is turning cartwheels right now,
27:10
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Right, sixteen years can you imagine it? And
27:14
Speaker 1: and his DNA was its at the scene, and uh,
27:18
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox and her boyfriend's DNA was not there, and
27:22
Speaker 1: you know, from a scientific perspective, you can't. They couldn't
27:25
Speaker 1: go in and clean up their own DNA and just
27:27
Speaker 1: leave his DNA there, right, So obviously they weren't in
27:30
Speaker 1: the room. But in terms of all these stories that
27:33
Speaker 1: were being told, the sex uh story was the one
27:38
Speaker 1: that stuck. That's the one I remember at the time.
27:40
Speaker 1: The idea that Amanda and her boyfriend were trying to
27:43
Speaker 1: ramp up their sexual experience, so they wanted to turn
27:46
Speaker 1: Meredith into a sex slave, and then she resisted, so
27:49
Speaker 1: they had to slid her throat. That was the story
27:52
Speaker 1: that everyone was fascinated by. Um. I think that some
27:56
Speaker 1: of the boyfriends uh Slocito's dn A was found on
28:01
Speaker 1: Meredith ross strap, but that was forty six days later,
28:04
Speaker 1: so that was an interesting twist too. I agree with you, Nancy, whoa,
28:08
Speaker 1: whoa what what? What about her brass trap? Well, Meredith
28:11
Speaker 1: Kercher's boss. I remember at the time, and I was
28:14
Speaker 1: just reading about this this morning, that Amanda Knox's boyfriend,
28:19
Speaker 1: her new boyfriend, Salacito, is that how you pronounce his name?
28:22
Speaker 1: That the boyfriend's DNA was found on meredith brass strap,
28:28
Speaker 1: on a clasp, on a bros strap. But this was
28:31
Speaker 1: forty six days after the crime, and this was quite
28:34
Speaker 1: incriminating as well. But that was that is that that
28:38
Speaker 1: was Linda Byron. Was her DNA found on Kercher's brass trap.
28:43
Speaker 1: There was a trace amount of DNA that that was
28:46
Speaker 1: attributed to Rafaeli's selective What the scientific experts from Rome
28:52
Speaker 1: said when they were brought in at the second trial
28:56
Speaker 1: to analyze all of this evidence, they said that that
28:59
Speaker 1: was on was certainly from contamination. If you look at
29:02
Speaker 1: the video of the crime scene, if you look at
29:04
Speaker 1: the criminal as they're going through and they're processing the
29:07
Speaker 1: crime scene, forty six days after they've been in and
29:10
Speaker 1: out of that room over and over and in and
29:12
Speaker 1: out of the house, they picked up this little piece
29:14
Speaker 1: of a broad clasp and they handed all around, They
29:17
Speaker 1: passed it all around and they're all looking at it.
29:20
Speaker 1: This was found to be terribly sloppy. Do you know that, Linda,
29:24
Speaker 1: Do you know it was handed around? You can see
29:27
Speaker 1: it on the video and it was brought up in
29:28
Speaker 1: court though the video. It was brought up in court. Yes,
29:31
Speaker 1: that you see it being handed around. That that's that's
29:34
Speaker 1: The second appellate court stated that the victim, the murder victim,
29:39
Speaker 1: Meredith Kircher's broad class that had been cut from her
29:42
Speaker 1: body had Solicito's d n A on the tiny metal
29:49
Speaker 1: clasp of the bra. This is Amanda Knox's then boyfriend.
29:55
Speaker 1: The biological d n A on the broad class that
29:59
Speaker 1: Meredith Kircher was wearing belonged to Rafaelli Solicy too. If
30:05
Speaker 1: he had been in that room, if he had been
30:08
Speaker 1: handling her clothing, if he had ripped that brock left
30:11
Speaker 1: from her body, his DNA would have been all over
30:14
Speaker 1: the room. This is what bothered me when I covered
30:17
Speaker 1: this trial, was I kept looking for what we normally
30:20
Speaker 1: see in these kinds of cases, which is DNA evidance.
30:24
Speaker 1: And if he had been inside that room and there
30:26
Speaker 1: had been this struggle for this drug field sex game,
30:28
Speaker 1: the prosecutor claimed that um Amanda Knox is the one
30:33
Speaker 1: that slid her throat that she was being held back
30:35
Speaker 1: by Rafaeli Selecci too, and that Rudy good Day was
30:40
Speaker 1: sexually assaulting her. All of them should have had DNA
30:43
Speaker 1: all over that room. The only DNA was found was
30:46
Speaker 1: Rudy good Day, and it was found in the vaginal swab.
30:48
Speaker 1: It was found in the camphort and on the pillow.
30:50
Speaker 1: It was found on the blood on the sweatshirt warmed
30:52
Speaker 1: by the victim, and his previous behavior was highly suspicious
30:56
Speaker 1: of being one to enter apartments to rob equipped with knives.
31:00
Speaker 1: All of this is in Judge Hellman's report. Judge Hellman
31:03
Speaker 1: was the judge's second trial that exonerated Amandana. To me,
31:06
Speaker 1: that is a more simple and more obvious scenario as well,
31:11
Speaker 1: because I'm still looking for the connection. I mean to
31:15
Speaker 1: me her Amanda Knox's words are damning, but I don't
31:19
Speaker 1: I still don't have a connection between Amanda Knox, boyfriend Soelcito,
31:24
Speaker 1: and Rudy Gooday, the guy from the Ivory Coast whose
31:28
Speaker 1: DNA was at the scene. Did they work together, did
31:31
Speaker 1: they know each other before? Any connection at all? If
31:34
Speaker 1: I can connect the three of them, then that would
31:37
Speaker 1: be a leg to stand on. But were they connected, Linda,
31:41
Speaker 1: was anybody connected to Rudy Gooday. Rudy good Day had
31:47
Speaker 1: been known to play basketball in the basketball court near
31:50
Speaker 1: where the girls lived in this apartment in the house
31:53
Speaker 1: and below their floor. So this was a this was
31:57
Speaker 1: a two story kind of almost like a duplex type
31:59
Speaker 1: thing where a number of young men lived there. Ruddy
32:02
Speaker 1: Gooday was known to have come to their apartment, to
32:06
Speaker 1: their part of the home and spend time with them.
32:09
Speaker 1: So he has a very peripheral connection to that house.
32:13
Speaker 1: What you're saying, good Day spent time with who the
32:16
Speaker 1: boys that lived beneath the girls. This is a house
32:19
Speaker 1: that has two stories, and like many many houses in Italy,
32:23
Speaker 1: and also here, you may run out one floor to
32:26
Speaker 1: one group of roommates and you may run out another
32:28
Speaker 1: floor to another group of roommates. So below below the
32:32
Speaker 1: four rooms where these you know these um college where
32:36
Speaker 1: e Meredith and Amanda and the two other women lived,
32:39
Speaker 1: there was an apartment that was occupied by some young
32:43
Speaker 1: men who were known to have an acquaintance with Ruddy Goodet. Gotcha,
32:46
Speaker 1: But there was no common there's no common entrance between
32:49
Speaker 1: the two places. And with me is Seattle lawyer and Bremner,
32:52
Speaker 1: who is related to friends of Amanda Knox that group.
32:57
Speaker 1: And was there any connection between who we know is
33:02
Speaker 1: there because of DNA and her vagina and that would
33:06
Speaker 1: be Rudy good Day. Is there any connection between him
33:10
Speaker 1: and the boyfriend raphael A Selasita. No, And you know
33:16
Speaker 1: he also confessed on skype Rooty good Day and he fled,
33:18
Speaker 1: and we know that evidence of flight is evidence of guilt.
33:20
Speaker 1: Nancy and Linda also enumerated the other things that indicate
33:23
Speaker 1: his guilt. He's all over that room. And he had
33:26
Speaker 1: a fast tracked trial. That's just like a slow guilty
33:29
Speaker 1: play in the United States. He was tried together with
33:31
Speaker 1: the other defendants in their pre trial hearing on problem
33:33
Speaker 1: because that's why he got a better sentence. Better man,
33:36
Speaker 1: you're not kidding sixty. He can already leave Jill. I
33:40
Speaker 1: think for work for a lows. I mean, really, guys,
33:44
Speaker 1: take a listen to more of what that prosecutor said.
33:48
Speaker 1: The the erotic game was always part of the case.
33:54
Speaker 1: I think that night Amanda wanted to make Meredith pay
33:58
Speaker 1: for judging her, but she found offensive rough. I'm all
34:07
Speaker 1: for looking at the hard evidence. And again I said,
34:10
Speaker 1: I couldn't get away from Amanda Knox, stating that she
34:14
Speaker 1: could hear Merrideth screaming and put her hands over her ears,
34:17
Speaker 1: which means she had to be in the home at
34:18
Speaker 1: the time. All right, now, how can I reconcile that
34:22
Speaker 1: with this crazy scheme, that this motive which they didn't
34:27
Speaker 1: need anyway, but they blurted it out, that Amanda Knox
34:31
Speaker 1: murdered Meryth Kircher because Meredith Kircher judged her lifestyle. That
34:36
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me. What I would need to
34:39
Speaker 1: really believe this to believe the prosecution's case. What I
34:42
Speaker 1: would really need is a connection between Amanda Knox or
34:47
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, her lover Rafaeli Solcy too with the rapist,
34:52
Speaker 1: and that would be Rudy Gooday. I know he did
34:54
Speaker 1: it because his DNA is on and in her body
34:57
Speaker 1: and all over the room. I think that prosecutor has
35:01
Speaker 1: had reason to believe Amanda and her boyfriend may have
35:04
Speaker 1: been involved, But I don't see a connection right now
35:08
Speaker 1: to the day that will hold up in court. What
35:12
Speaker 1: is happening now with Amanda Knox. I know that she
35:17
Speaker 1: was the focus a very popular documentary. I know that
35:22
Speaker 1: she says or her supporters have said she's returning to
35:25
Speaker 1: Italy to rid herself of the trauma of the false
35:29
Speaker 1: and president, and that Meredith Kircher's family says, please don't please.
35:33
Speaker 1: You're the only one that has profited of Meredith brutal murder,
35:38
Speaker 1: our daughter, our our sister. Please don't come back. Just
35:42
Speaker 1: you know, deal with your trauma in your own way,
35:44
Speaker 1: that's what they're saying. I don't know why they would
35:46
Speaker 1: say that if they believe she was innocent. I also
35:49
Speaker 1: know she just did almost a four million dollar book deal.
35:52
Speaker 1: So where does she's Where does her life stand today?
35:55
Speaker 1: A Bremner, Yeah, she's doing well. She's she's very low
35:59
Speaker 1: key in some time with her, even at her house,
36:02
Speaker 1: and she seems to have her feet on the ground.
36:04
Speaker 1: I just think it's, you know, one step at a time. Um.
36:07
Speaker 1: She doesn't seek out the limelight. But people don't bug
36:10
Speaker 1: her in the press here in writing said they wouldn't
36:13
Speaker 1: bother when she has not to be contacted, So I
36:16
Speaker 1: think that's good. But she's um, she's got forecasts orange cats. Um, Yeah,
36:23
Speaker 1: she forecasts um. And she did go to Europe. She
36:25
Speaker 1: didn't go to Italy, but she did go to Europe
36:27
Speaker 1: recently with her boyfriend, and he's a great guy. I
36:29
Speaker 1: worked with his mom in the court system. So I
36:32
Speaker 1: think that those are all good things. You know that
36:34
Speaker 1: she seems to be settling down in a good way.
36:36
Speaker 1: What happened to the charge that she blinded an innocent
36:39
Speaker 1: person another person, well that that was that was still
36:42
Speaker 1: out there. Linda can talk more about that because I
36:44
Speaker 1: wasn't in court for that part of it. But Amanda
36:46
Speaker 1: had a book deal years ago, Nancy, and that money
36:48
Speaker 1: has gone to pay for lawyers. I mean, she had
36:51
Speaker 1: lawyers for you know, nearly a decade, including here in
36:54
Speaker 1: the United States, because there's a potential extradition. She um,
36:58
Speaker 1: there's a Netflix piece that she participated in but she
37:00
Speaker 1: was not compensated for. And then also, you know, she's
37:03
Speaker 1: been very active and innocence projects around the country. You know,
37:06
Speaker 1: I've attended a number of those with her. You know,
37:09
Speaker 1: she's settled down with a great guy. His name is
37:11
Speaker 1: Chris Robinson. He's a writer. He was from Hunter College,
37:13
Speaker 1: he was a professor there. She writes for the West
37:16
Speaker 1: Seattle Harold. They supported her. She has a life and
37:19
Speaker 1: arts column, and she's trying to live a normal life.
37:22
Speaker 1: You know, she seems you know, of course anyone would
37:25
Speaker 1: have PTSD from this. Anybody would be completely traumatized from
37:28
Speaker 1: being internationally vilified, you know, for such a long time.
37:32
Speaker 1: But she's back in Seattle and she's living a quiet life.
37:34
Speaker 1: You know. I just can't get my mind around Linda
37:38
Speaker 1: Byron uh investigative reporter. They collimed this girl was in
37:42
Speaker 1: some sex game that went wrong and so she ended
37:45
Speaker 1: up murdering her roommate. I mean, a lot of room
37:48
Speaker 1: mates don't get along. I get it, but that is crazy.
37:51
Speaker 1: That's crazy. I mean, if the prosecution had hoped for
37:54
Speaker 1: a conviction that was a that shooting yourself in the foot,
37:57
Speaker 1: throwing that out, that's a motive that they just didn't
38:00
Speaker 1: I the jury just did not buy that motive. And
38:02
Speaker 1: it was and there was very little presented in court
38:04
Speaker 1: that would indicate that they had a bed. Well wait
38:06
Speaker 1: a minute, somebody got somebody bought it, because somebody bought
38:09
Speaker 1: it somewhere the first time that is true. She she
38:13
Speaker 1: she was and then she was exonerated, and then that
38:16
Speaker 1: was thrown out, and then she was essentially reconvicted by
38:20
Speaker 1: the Florence court. But in the end, if you read
38:23
Speaker 1: through all of the documents of all of the courts,
38:25
Speaker 1: including the Supreme Court, uh that motive was dismissed as
38:31
Speaker 1: being unsupported. The Italians sue Italians, you know, I want
38:35
Speaker 1: to I want to ask you, though you said that
38:37
Speaker 1: that Amanda Knox has profited from this, and my understanding
38:42
Speaker 1: I said that Meredith Kercher's family said Amanda Knox is
38:46
Speaker 1: the only one that has profited from meredith murder, which
38:50
Speaker 1: they did, Okay, point taken in terms of profit, though,
38:53
Speaker 1: I do want to point out what Ann said, and
38:55
Speaker 1: that is that the money went, as far as I
38:59
Speaker 1: understand it, to pay for her lawyers and to satisfy
39:03
Speaker 1: the mortgages that her parents and her grandmother took out
39:06
Speaker 1: on their homes to pay for her legal bills, and
39:10
Speaker 1: to be in Italy because the family always make sure
39:13
Speaker 1: someone was there to visit her in prison once a
39:16
Speaker 1: week when she got a prison visit, So they rented
39:18
Speaker 1: an apartment. This was a highly expensive defense for them.
39:23
Speaker 1: I think they threw everything they could at it. And
39:25
Speaker 1: who wouldn't do that as a parent, to have you know,
39:27
Speaker 1: your child in a foreign prison for a crime that
39:30
Speaker 1: you do not believe she committed. Um, and I think
39:34
Speaker 1: we do have to look at in the end, the
39:36
Speaker 1: Italian Supreme Court did not just say innocent in that
39:40
Speaker 1: she excuse me, they didn't just say not guilty. In
39:43
Speaker 1: other words, there's a distinction in Italy between you did
39:45
Speaker 1: not prove the crime was committed and exoneration innocence. They
39:51
Speaker 1: said she was exonerated completely. And I think we have
39:54
Speaker 1: to have some faith in in the Italian justice systems
39:58
Speaker 1: ultimate processing of this crime. And even heard his trial,
40:01
Speaker 1: even though it's with years and years and years, certainly
40:03
Speaker 1: didn't feel about the way we would, you know, expect
40:06
Speaker 1: to see it. But in all that time and all
40:08
Speaker 1: those trials and all that testimony, I never heard or
40:11
Speaker 1: saw a single piece of solid, convincing evidence that showed
40:16
Speaker 1: Amanda knoxes in that room or committed that crime. Well,
40:19
Speaker 1: I have absolutely no faith in the Italian court system
40:23
Speaker 1: because and I'm not saying they got it wrong, because
40:26
Speaker 1: I never saw the connection between the boyfriend solicito and
40:32
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox and the rapist who I mean, you can't
40:36
Speaker 1: tell me he raped her and then somebody else just
40:38
Speaker 1: happened to walk in within the next hour and murder her. Okay,
40:41
Speaker 1: he murdered her and I can't see a connection between
40:44
Speaker 1: the three of them. But I don't have any faith
40:48
Speaker 1: in the Italian system. And I'll tell you why, because
40:51
Speaker 1: she's tried, she's convicted, but it was held on appeal,
40:55
Speaker 1: then it was reversed on appeal. And then what they
40:58
Speaker 1: re tried her on appeal what they decided to re
41:02
Speaker 1: look at the evidence with how do how do you
41:04
Speaker 1: reconvict someone on appeal without another draw Nancy. They had
41:07
Speaker 1: the first trial, of course, was a conviction in two
41:09
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, I think it was, but they have
41:11
Speaker 1: was called trial di novo really in Italy. So the
41:13
Speaker 1: second trial was the second trial, slow it down, slow
41:17
Speaker 1: it down. In Italy. There on appeal, it's called a
41:21
Speaker 1: trial de novo, which is you know, means a new trial,
41:24
Speaker 1: a trial anew. So they presented evidence on appeal and
41:28
Speaker 1: that's where the experts were appointed on appeal in the
41:31
Speaker 1: trial to novo by the judge, and that's where the
41:34
Speaker 1: experts said that the evidence was compromised. Yes, yes, but
41:39
Speaker 1: then after that was she there, yes, yes, but for
41:44
Speaker 1: the trial, the trial for the preclusion, and this was
41:49
Speaker 1: really triple jeopardy in my mind, she was exonerated or
41:52
Speaker 1: she was acquitted in two thousand eleven, and then she
41:55
Speaker 1: was tried again in abstentia and convicted, and then the court,
42:00
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, the highest court. Cecy said she was
42:03
Speaker 1: completely exonerated, not just innocent, not just not guilty. Guys,
42:07
Speaker 1: I heard you the first, you know, maybe ten times
42:10
Speaker 1: you said exonerated. I get it. She was exonerated. And
42:15
Speaker 1: I'm looking at all the sides, and I appreciate it
42:18
Speaker 1: when other people try to have an open mind, okay,
42:22
Speaker 1: and to pretend there is not evidence that appears to
42:26
Speaker 1: be damning. That's disingenuous to me. So I'm looking at
42:33
Speaker 1: all the evidence that I know, and there is evidence
42:37
Speaker 1: that looks bad for her to me. But again, when
42:41
Speaker 1: I look at the hard evidence, Bethany Marshall, I just
42:46
Speaker 1: don't see that connection with the with the rapist. I don't.
42:50
Speaker 1: I don't see. Well, I agree with you. The science
42:54
Speaker 1: doesn't does not back up that Meredith. And I'm sorry
42:57
Speaker 1: Amanda and her boyfriend were in the room with Meredith, right,
43:01
Speaker 1: but the behavioral evidence does not look good at all.
43:05
Speaker 1: The fact that she said I heard her screaming. You
43:08
Speaker 1: kept asking me about that and I've been thinking about it,
43:10
Speaker 1: and the only possibility I can think of was that
43:13
Speaker 1: she didn't spend the night with her boyfriend, she went
43:15
Speaker 1: back to her apartment, heard her roommate screaming, ignored it,
43:19
Speaker 1: and then went back to her boyfriend's apartment. Again, the
43:22
Speaker 1: only thing I can think of. And then the video
43:25
Speaker 1: we've seen of her kissing her boyfriend the next morning,
43:28
Speaker 1: the shopping for lingerie at Bubbles, it can only be,
43:32
Speaker 1: you know, one of two things. One is that she
43:35
Speaker 1: was experiencing something that we call reaction formation. That's when
43:39
Speaker 1: you turn an underlying feeling into its opposite, so a
43:42
Speaker 1: feeling of great shock. You know, I feel very close
43:46
Speaker 1: to you. Okay, I think you're awesome. But when you
43:49
Speaker 1: have to just start doing backflips to explain something away,
43:54
Speaker 1: that doesn't work with me. All right now, I know
43:57
Speaker 1: what it is like to have someone very dear to
43:59
Speaker 1: be murdered and going out and buying lingerie the next morning,
44:02
Speaker 1: to me, does not indicate that you're the least bit concerned.
44:06
Speaker 1: And and Bremner again, I respect you. You're known all
44:10
Speaker 1: over the world, But to tell me, well, her her
44:13
Speaker 1: apartment was a crime scene, she had to what go
44:15
Speaker 1: buy a thong. No, not buying that either. So I
44:19
Speaker 1: don't know what it means. It may mean nothing, but
44:21
Speaker 1: I do know this. Let me throw this to dry.
44:23
Speaker 1: And again, none of that a murder makes period. The
44:28
Speaker 1: fact that Meredith Kircher's family, according to delhimail dot com protests,
44:36
Speaker 1: does not want her, Amanda Knox, to come back to
44:40
Speaker 1: Italy and is They're very they're very firm about it,
44:47
Speaker 1: and they continue to say she's the only one that
44:49
Speaker 1: profited from Meredith death. Now Meredith murder, Now what does
44:53
Speaker 1: that mean to you? Because in all the years I
44:56
Speaker 1: prosecuted homicides, I can only kind of and ful of
45:00
Speaker 1: times the victims family did not support the prosecution. Typically
45:06
Speaker 1: it was when they were related, like you know, domestic
45:08
Speaker 1: commicide and the children did not want their dad prosecuted.
45:12
Speaker 1: That's a common example of the murder victims family not
45:16
Speaker 1: supporting the prosecution. Here, the murder victims family does not
45:21
Speaker 1: seem to support Amanda Knox. Why is that, you know, Nancy, Nancy,
45:27
Speaker 1: One of the things that I keep thinking about is
45:29
Speaker 1: that their daughter is dead and Amanda is alive. And
45:35
Speaker 1: how painful is that for the family. And not only
45:38
Speaker 1: is Amanda alive. But there's, as we're talking about, all
45:41
Speaker 1: the behavioral evidence, she was kissing her boyfriend at the scene,
45:44
Speaker 1: going and buying lingerie, so disrespectful towards Meredith, and whatever
45:49
Speaker 1: the underlying psychological motivations for that Behaviorally, it was a
45:54
Speaker 1: huge sign of disrespect. So I can see why the
45:58
Speaker 1: family would not want more a reminders of this. And also,
46:02
Speaker 1: you know, Amanda has profited, even though the proceeds may
46:07
Speaker 1: have gone towards her legal defense. Four million dollars. That's
46:11
Speaker 1: a lot of money for a book, and she now
46:13
Speaker 1: has fame, she has notoriety, She's sort of situated for
46:16
Speaker 1: the rest of her life, even even though she's had
46:18
Speaker 1: this horrible trauma. I think every time this family sees Amanda,
46:22
Speaker 1: they have to think about what would their own daughter's
46:25
Speaker 1: life had been like if she was alive. I was
46:27
Speaker 1: thinking during this show, how old would Meredith have been
46:30
Speaker 1: at this point? I think Meredith would have been This
46:32
Speaker 1: was ten years ago, right, this is the anniversary Meredith
46:35
Speaker 1: was twenty one years old. She would have been thirty
46:37
Speaker 1: one years old and living a full life. So how
46:40
Speaker 1: can they want to see Amanda living a full life
46:43
Speaker 1: when their own daughter was cut off from that possibility
46:45
Speaker 1: and that potential. Okay, Bethany, that actually makes a lot
46:48
Speaker 1: of sense to me because when see I can't say
46:53
Speaker 1: nearly as well as you do, but when they say Amanda,
46:57
Speaker 1: it's everything Meredith can never be and it reminds them
47:01
Speaker 1: of that horrible time. Do they blame Amanda? Do they
47:05
Speaker 1: still believe that she is involved and is guilty? Linda Byron,
47:11
Speaker 1: I can only say what I've what I've read, and
47:14
Speaker 1: what I've seen reported, and that is that they have
47:18
Speaker 1: always had at least some suspicion that Amanda was involved.
47:22
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they relied on the prosecutors and
47:26
Speaker 1: trusted the prosecutors to tell them that this is what happened,
47:30
Speaker 1: and we have the evidence to back it up. But
47:33
Speaker 1: no matter how, I know that they were quote better
47:37
Speaker 1: with the night and if they did not think that
47:41
Speaker 1: she was involved, and why were they better? I think
47:45
Speaker 1: that that's troubling, is very troubling, and that Amanda either
47:50
Speaker 1: killed their daughter or was involved. And you know, you
47:52
Speaker 1: have to think about do they really want the celebrity
47:56
Speaker 1: and all of this is Amanda Knox. Do they really
47:59
Speaker 1: want her to come back to Italy or to visit
48:01
Speaker 1: Perugia where the murder occur, because all of the the
48:05
Speaker 1: hights and all of the hoop law and all of
48:07
Speaker 1: it is going to start all over again. I mean
48:09
Speaker 1: people they have not forgotten about. Well, this is what
48:12
Speaker 1: they have said. It's it's been years, it's now since
48:16
Speaker 1: Meredith was murdered there in Italy. The family and I
48:21
Speaker 1: am quoting from the Independent, the family is in shock
48:25
Speaker 1: after the verdict. They don't wish to make any other declarations.
48:29
Speaker 1: I've had to explain to them there are no now,
48:32
Speaker 1: no avenues open to them. There is a great sense
48:34
Speaker 1: of bitterness. They are, the reporter says. The Kircher's, who
48:40
Speaker 1: had previously spoken of their confidence in the Italian justice system,
48:44
Speaker 1: have made it clear they believe Miss Knox and Mr
48:47
Speaker 1: sols Too were involved in the killing, along with Rudy Gooday,
48:51
Speaker 1: who has already been jailed for murder. Now there's no
48:55
Speaker 1: getting around it. Tell Italy Supreme Court of Cassassion has
48:59
Speaker 1: clear heard Miss Knox and Mr Solacito. Um, what does
49:06
Speaker 1: it mean? They say that there were changing alibis by
49:11
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. They're convinced they're guilty, but they claimed that
49:17
Speaker 1: Good Day could never have acted alone. I think when
49:20
Speaker 1: you have a man and a woman alone an apartment,
49:23
Speaker 1: that he can't overcome her, assault her and murder her,
49:26
Speaker 1: because I've seen it happen so many many times. There
49:29
Speaker 1: will always be those people that still believe Amanda Knox
49:33
Speaker 1: is guilty. But the Italian court has ruled and exonerated her.
49:41
Speaker 1: But the mystery goes on and Bremner, Linda Byron, Bethany Marshall,
49:46
Speaker 1: Alan Duke, thank you for being with us, Nancy Grace
49:49
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over
49:58
Speaker 1: unsolved mysteries? Do you wish they were a group of
50:00
Speaker 1: people just like you to talk motives and alibis with.
50:03
Speaker 1: If so, join the crime Con Cold Case Club and
50:06
Speaker 1: work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover
50:09
Speaker 1: new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt.
50:12
Speaker 1: Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of
50:15
Speaker 1: nursing student Maura Murray in two thousand four, and it's
50:18
Speaker 1: free to join thanks to Oxygen. Sign up now or
50:20
Speaker 1: find more info at Club dot crime con dot com.
50:23
Speaker 1: That's club dot crime con dot com.