Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / S2 Ep3: Emergence

Transcript

S2 Ep3: Emergence · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
• 0:29
  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: In this episode of Attachment Matters,
• 0:41
  Rose introduces the concept of the emergent process and its
• 0:44
  relationship to maturation.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: We cover the main fruits of emergence,
• 0:49
  as well as how this energy may show up differently based on
• 0:51
  each child's unique
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: personality traits.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: I share stories of my own two children's differing emergent energy,
• 0:57
  and Rose reflects on how there are often multiple ways to look
• 1:00
  at the dynamics at
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: play with our children.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately,
• 1:04
  we come back to the need for nurturing attachment and the
• 1:06
  importance of connection
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: and fostering growth and independence.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hello.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back, everyone.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for today's topic.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, good.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Good, good, good.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: The emergent process.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Which that accompanies the side of the triangle.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we can test my
• 1:41
  my knowledge and what I remember from the last episode where we
• 1:45
  were talking about
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: the key components of Neufeld's maturation theory,
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: And using a three-sided triangle,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: all triangles are three-sided,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: but a two-dimensional diagram here with three sides.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: that represent the fruits of maturity,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: becoming a social being,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: becoming an adaptive being,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: and becoming a separate being.
• 2:14
  And the emergent process goes along with becoming a separate being,
• 2:21
  is that correct?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, that's right.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yay.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: Woo!
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm glad we're talking about this because I did have some questions.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:32
  that I will hold on to for now and imagine that I'll get to ask
• 2:36
  them as you share
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: more about the emergent process.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds great.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds great.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, so let's dive in and we'll see where we end up.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: This will be an emergent process in and of itself.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're just going to go with the flow here, but yes.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with this conversation.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's actually start with the fruits.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:08
  So when we talk about becoming a separate being or having
• 3:11
  emergent energy,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: that's another way that we can think about this.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does emergent energy look like?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: What does that fruit of being a separate being look like?
• 3:25
  So I'm just going to kind of name some things and then maybe once,
• 3:28
  you know,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Once you pop in, you pop in and we kind of go from there.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: So having interest and curiosity.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is one aspect of being emergent or in emergent energy.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So just having a genuine openness to wanting to explore,
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: to wanting to understand,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: to learn something new.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is emergent energy.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 4:00
  Well,
• 4:00
  I'm just wanting to acknowledge that we can see this very early
• 4:05
  in life,
• 4:08
  right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: That emergent energy can be present even in the youngest among us.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: maybe not the infants,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: but certainly once there's some mobility and maybe even before,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: with a baby,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 4:24
  being curious about your face and reaching up and touching
• 4:28
  things and yes,
• 4:30
  exploring,
• 4:31
  right?
• 4:32
  Would that be that interesting curiosity that is indicative of
• 4:36
  emergent energy?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're absolutely correct.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of goes with this next one,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: which is to have a sense of boundaries,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: to have boundaries.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this a lot,
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: just like you said,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: with that interest and curiosity,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: that we can start to see this energy at,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: in a in a maybe a one year old,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: two year old,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: three year old,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: for sure at those stages or that that,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: that age.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: You have the potential to start saying, this is me, and that's not me.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about that three-year-old who,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: if they're developing attachment at the layer of loyalty and belonging...
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's where that sense of possessiveness comes in too, right?
• 5:25
  Because belonging,
• 5:26
  that drive,
• 5:27
  is also like the drive to possess or be possessed.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that idea of this is mine, this is mine, is emergent.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is part of an emergent process.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of an emergent energy to start to develop a sense of self.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: and I want to come back to this mine,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: not mine,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: because what we,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: what I'm just going to speak briefly to this right now.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: When you go back to that three-year-old and you say, you have to share.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 6:12
  We want to impose form at such an early age because we're so
• 6:20
  scared of social fit
• 6:25
  that we actually are going against the emergent process in a
• 6:31
  sense when we don't
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: recognize this as the spirit of this child that
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: wanting to have a self,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: that this is one of those inner springs that's,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: that needs to express itself.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And this is,
• 6:50
  now we're coming to that idea of our tendency to teach skills
• 6:57
  rather than allow the
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: maturity to unfold along its natural timeline if the conditions are
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: are provided.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to be talking much more about that as we go,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: but...
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the pressure,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: acknowledging the pressure,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so sorry for talking over you,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: but I just,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: as we're going through this information,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: and...
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: listeners concerned about things they might have done wrong,
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: like teaching skills can come across that way,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: As we're discussing this.
• 7:32
  And so just acknowledging the pressure to teach skills and that
• 7:38
  we didn't know any better.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: We can't beat ourselves up for information we didn't have.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for saying that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really appreciate it.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree wholeheartedly.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Wholeheartedly.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: And even that is hard.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's hard to have grace with ourselves.
• 8:02
  our former selves,
• 8:04
  you know,
• 8:04
  who are,
• 8:05
  who are doing the best,
• 8:06
  doing their best as we all are.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: and just to say this too,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say that it's all going to be okay and it's never too late.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's never too late.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So for yourself,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: for your child,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: for your relationship,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: it's just I'm going to say that every time.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is never too late.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let's keep going here.
• 8:43
  So the next kind of aspect of the fruit or,
• 8:47
  you know,
• 8:47
  I think this is a means and an end.
• 8:49
  Just like we talked about in the last episode around the
• 8:51
  adaptive process.
• 8:53
  the idea of the emergent process is both something we can see
• 8:56
  in fruit over the
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: long term,
• 8:59
  but we're also seeing the fruits of it along the way when this
• 9:03
  energy is present,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always present.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So again, parents, when you listen to this, don't go back.
• 9:10
  And if your child is not emergent every single second of every
• 9:13
  single day,
• 9:14
  don't panic.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: You want to see this energy bubbling up
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, often, but it's not always present, okay?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to make sure I'm clear about that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: But here's a couple other aspects.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: The ability to fill emptiness with creative solitude.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what we talk about is boredom.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: If we think of it as a void or a hole, is...
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: the child or an adult for that matter,
• 9:49
  able to fill that emptiness with something that's coming from
• 9:54
  the inside out,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: creativity,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: writing,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: playing baseball in the backyard,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: something that you're,
• 10:06
  that you are able to generate from the inside out versus
• 10:10
  needing stimulation or
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: entertainment from the outside in.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Which is what our current technological lifestyles inhibit.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:26
  So this is a huge challenge and another place to say we have to
• 10:31
  have grace with
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: ourselves because of the time we're living in
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: and the challenges presented by it,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: that if anyone listening has an adolescent,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: teenager,
• 10:45
  or beyond who is kind of stuck in that mode of filling those
• 10:50
  empty spaces with
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: stimulation from the outside,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: do not despair.
• 10:57
  Again,
• 10:57
  this is about what we see and then what can we do once we see,
• 11:02
  hey,
• 11:02
  my child,
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't have a lot,
• 11:05
  I'm not seeing a lot of emergent energy because they're always
• 11:08
  on the video games
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: or always online,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: in whatever way.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the end of the world, but hey, now we see it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And now what's the next step, right?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not going to talk about that yet, but we will talk about it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the next one,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: this is something you can see from a very young age sometimes,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: is this do-it-myself energy.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So especially,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: you kind of take me back to those two,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: three-year-olds,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do it myself,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what Neufeld calls kind of taking the steering wheel in life.
• 11:52
  And,
• 11:53
  and just that,
• 11:53
  that,
• 11:54
  that,
• 11:55
  again,
• 11:55
  that inner energy,
• 11:57
  it's not being forced upon the child.
• 12:02
  But,
• 12:02
  but this inner energy of like,
• 12:05
  that pride,
• 12:06
  almost that sense of accomplishment.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I did this on my own.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I, I experienced that.
• 12:15
  And just kind of seeing that in a young child who may be in
• 12:17
  this energy and having
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: done something like that sense of accomplishment,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: that sense of agency and what that how that fills one up,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: in a sense.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of he talks about this is whether a child or an adult,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: you can you can see that when life just happens to a person,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: that someone who is even as an adult,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: that when you're not in that sense of self or that that agency mode,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: you can you can be operating this mode of life is just happening to me.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Versus taking responsibility.
• 13:01
  You're just,
• 13:01
  you're being swept along instead of,
• 13:04
  and I love the taking the steering wheel.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of being in the driver's seat of your life.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think that applies to lots of people who just feel swept along.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: So does it get disrupted along the way?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what happens?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we will get to impediments for sure.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Impediments.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much to say there.
• 13:34
  But I want to go to this kind of next almost fleshing,
• 13:41
  like putting flesh on this.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: What he says is to be emergent.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: you get a sense that there's somebody home.
• 13:52
  Like if you knock on the door of this person,
• 13:55
  knock,
• 13:55
  knock,
• 13:56
  is anybody there?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: If there is an emergent process unfolding,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: whether in the means or the end,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to have the sense that somebody's home.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why that just hit me so strongly when I heard that.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that gave me kind of this energy.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: It really could feel like, is there anybody there, you know?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: That separate being, you know, that there's a personality.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I would have said forming, but now I'm thinking emerging.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: The personality is emerging.
• 14:39
  It was always there and the conditions are allowing that
• 14:44
  personality to emerge.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that came up earlier for me too.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe we'll get into some scenarios and what this looks like.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: But the sort of nature aspect of this.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: The acorn.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm thinking Hillman now.
• 15:10
  you know,
• 15:10
  that image or that,
• 15:13
  that,
• 15:13
  um,
• 15:16
  purpose or personality that's meant to emerge.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: that's,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love where you're going with that and we are going to get there.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Take us then.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the last – I just want to cover one last sort of, you know, image or –
• 15:48
  way of seeing this sense of being a separate self someone who
• 15:52
  is able to stand on
• 15:53
  their own two feet so it takes us back to that viable being he
• 15:58
  does speak about
• 15:59
  this idea of viability like when a when a baby is born and you
• 16:03
  can cut the
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: umbilical cord and the baby can still can breathe on its own can um
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: mostly it's breathing at that point,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: but will eventually eat and do all these things on its own.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that's this emerging into a separate self,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: a separate being that you can exist without attachments.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this can get,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to get into the weeds on this necessarily,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: this is the example that just comes into me is like,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: can the adolescent set down their cell phone and,
• 16:42
  and be okay can the adult set down their cell phone and be okay
• 16:49
  can the adult set
• 16:50
  down their cell phone and be okay you know thinking about these
• 16:53
  things that we are
• 16:54
  tethered now i don't this is going to sound paradoxical because
• 16:59
  of course we want
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: to have those deep roots of attachment
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we can hold on even if we're not in touch.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're not looking at the cell phone.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're not texting.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have deeper ways of staying connected beyond that.
• 17:16
  But it is this idea that you can venture out on your own and
• 17:24
  maintain that sense of
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: self or have a sense of self to exist even when you're not connected.
• 17:35
  locked into those attachments that kind of keep you afloat um
• 17:40
  otherwise my mind was
• 17:45
  wandering a little i'm sorry okay that's okay because when you
• 17:50
  said you didn't want
• 17:51
  to get into the weeds i i realize i have such a weedy question
• 17:55
  for you but we go
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: for it
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I may not be able to answer it, but try.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: That has been with me since the last episode.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go.
• 18:05
  And maybe even the first episode about becoming a viable being
• 18:08
  and how this is in each of us.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: What about people who are severely disabled?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:21
  Who will never be independent in the world,
• 18:24
  who are very dependent on care.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Did you talk about that?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, thank you for bringing this up, and it's helpful.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I, too, when I hear this,
• 18:46
  being able to exist separate from attachments,
• 18:49
  I don't fully understand it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't fully understand what Neufeld means with that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because in me, I'm like, aren't we supposed to be that umbilical cord?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Don't we always need it?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, don't we always need that umbilical cord?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if it's just like
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: not an analogy that can be fully applied.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: or if it's my literal brain that just isn't clicking,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: when I,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: when I kind of grapple with this idea,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've got,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: but I,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: I've got an,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think an analogy that I like,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: go for it,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: go for it.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because,
• 19:31
  and I've had this umbilical cord conversation with some of the
• 19:34
  moms I work with even,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm thinking of an Aspen Grove in that we are all connected together.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Under the surface.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: But we appear as separate beings.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Does that work?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: That helps so much.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he always says that with those attachment roots, that it's unseen.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's always unseen.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you're right.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is the unseen root.
• 20:08
  connections that are still there and allow us to actually have
• 20:14
  a sense of self.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're saying about the very severely disabled person,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: those physical disabilities,
• 20:23
  even if you're dependent on every single physical activity of
• 20:27
  your day from a caregiver,
• 20:31
  it does not mean that you don't have the potential to still
• 20:33
  develop an emergent self.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think this is, it's not
• 20:39
  obviously the physical has a role like a child getting
• 20:42
  themselves dressed or,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: do they want to get,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: he always uses this example of like internal versus external.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: that what you hope for is that your child is going to say,
• 20:55
  I want to get myself dressed now as the mother of one child who
• 21:03
  has no desire to
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: get himself dressed.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 21:06
  And another child who has wanted to get himself dressed from a
• 21:11
  very early age.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:12
  I think this is where you were going before with the blueprint,
• 21:14
  and I did want to talk about it.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: The nature part.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, everybody is different.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:22
  And so when you hear these things and you say,
• 21:24
  okay,
• 21:25
  this is what my child should be doing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, is she doing it?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is he doing it?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, ah, panic, panic, panic, alarm, alarm, alarm.
• 21:33
  You know,
• 21:34
  just know that I spent in just preparing to have this conversation.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've just been thinking so much about my two sons.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 21:40
  Thinking about my two kids,
• 21:41
  my daughter and my son and the difference there.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So do you want to speak to that a little bit?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I definitely have some things that I'm like,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really want to share some of what I see with mine.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: But does something come to mind for you?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just thinking of their different personalities.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And my daughter's very strong emergent energy from an early age.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: And how she was ready to be a grown-up when she was 14.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, we gave her even some experiences of that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: We went on,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: we did some interesting adventures,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: during their adolescent years,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: because I'm pretty open to out of the box.
• 22:27
  I had no problem taking my kids out of school and doing other stuff,
• 22:30
  you know.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: And she even had her own little apartment on one of those adventures.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it was adorable, you know.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: And because –
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: We gave her that experience and let her choose,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: when she came in and hung out,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: she did a lot of it,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:50
  and I would go visit her out in her apartment that I'm saying
• 22:54
  in air quotes,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: which was a,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: a,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: a motor home,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: It was an RV outside of the, of this place that we were house sitting in.
• 23:04
  at you know it was like this ranch sit that we got to do it was
• 23:08
  quite the adventure
• 23:09
  you know that was really cool and yeah and i saw a lot of
• 23:13
  emergent energy on that
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: particular adventure she was 14.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: it was also when i let her get behind the wheel of the car
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, how amazing is that?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a way to soften her because we were in conflict.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: and I was grappling with myself like,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: ah,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: how,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: why can't I,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: what's,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: why can't I smooth this over,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it occurred to me, what I need to do is soften her.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: How can I soften her right now?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 23:49
  And it was just as we were pulling into the ranch,
• 23:50
  I said,
• 23:51
  you want to drive us in?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: And just the way her face lit up, she was so excited.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: she's just always been that way and continues to be that way,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: continues to want to be very independent.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: She lives a state away from us now, does not...
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: like to ask for things.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: And takes tons of pride in being scrappy and,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And figuring things out on her own.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, she will if she's really in a pickle, you know, she'll reach out.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I know she prefers to reach out in pride over her achievements.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
• 24:36
  She'd rather call and let me know something that is going well
• 24:40
  for her than to call
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: and ask for something.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say I'm the same way.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I see a lot of me in her.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: I left home at 17 and was very independent from then on.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: I've not asked for support from my family.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And not out of any hard feelings or anything.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I know they're there for me, but I've just...
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: also taken pride.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I think that seems generational.
• 25:15
  That seems something that also my mom was also,
• 25:18
  I think,
• 25:19
  very similar in that.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: Where my son is, he's more nervous.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: He's 17.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: He's also very social.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I do see that emerging energy.
• 25:30
  He's also quite independent,
• 25:32
  but he's less comfortable in it,
• 25:34
  I think,
• 25:34
  than his sister was.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: He's got more
• 25:38
  worries about being a grown-up in the world you know he just
• 25:42
  yeah was very uh just
• 25:47
  so social and so um so much more into family than my daughter
• 25:55
  was like even growing
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: up i'm like what is up with her why doesn't she like to play games
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: or go camping.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was just, she, she was always kind of difficult in that way.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that she,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: she,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: and I've been curious about this,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: whether this was emergent energy or some alpha stuff going on.
• 26:19
  Well,
• 26:19
  thank you for saying that because they're kind of both,
• 26:24
  it's interesting,
• 26:25
  you know,
• 26:30
  We have to remember that each of these constructs are like one
• 26:35
  dimension of like a
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: multidimensional map.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so glad you bring this up.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: When a child is emergent, they are kind of taking on that alpha energy.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually good.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually good.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what you kind of want to see is...
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that alpha,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: that confidence,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: that exploration,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: that venturing out,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: taking the steering wheel?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: It can also be...
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: more of a control that's kind of compensating for alarm,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: underlying feelings of insecurity.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: we're like,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: this takes such a long time to learn these different layers.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:25
  And then kind of discern is what I'm seeing in this particular
• 27:28
  scenario is
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: That curiosity,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: that confidence,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: that is this,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 27:37
  the kind of emergent energy that's like this engine of growth
• 27:41
  and exploration agency.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it kind of a tight grip that's more of that rigidity, you know?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I know those,
• 27:54
  I am always kind of trying to get my fingers on those potential
• 28:00
  threads in my older son,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: especially,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: because for him...
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: he's going to tend a lot more to that control side of,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: and for him,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: he is a example of like filling just incredible creative solitude,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: incredible creative solitude.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: But there is often a part of that,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: that as a hypersensitive child with these open sensory gateways that,
• 28:36
  that he is using that creative solitude also as a way of
• 28:39
  structuring and organizing chaos.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there is, there's just a level to it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's a both.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And is this beautiful that he's so creative and he can create,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: he has entire fantasy worlds,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: many,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: many,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: many different,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: an entire map with colleges and teams and mascots and playoffs and,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's just in that creative solitude so often,
• 29:09
  but I also have to have an awareness around it that it's
• 29:13
  serving more than one purpose,
• 29:15
  that there's also a level of what would be like a
• 29:18
  depersonalized attachment,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: not a bad thing.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a negative per se.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is serving him too to create order for his inner world.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I can see it as both.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: So in this case too, it's like as a child –
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Emergent and alpha?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And over time,
• 29:41
  you can integrate this material deeper and deeper in these ways
• 29:48
  of seeing deeper
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: and deeper.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: You can kind of see, oh, there's more than one thing at play here.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or...
• 29:56
  this energy is more of the controlling alpha where my child is
• 30:02
  either insecure or
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: very peer-oriented,
• 30:04
  and that's where I'm seeing what I would potentially
• 30:08
  misperceive as independence.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: but there's actually an attachment pursuit there to peers, for example.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: My child's leaving me behind,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: but it doesn't mean that they're a separate being from their peers.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's more of a conformity going on.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: I know that she sees herself as the mature one among her peers.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 30:34
  Well,
• 30:34
  the fact that she – I mean,
• 30:35
  without knowing your daughter,
• 30:36
  the fact that she can –
• 30:39
  see herself as a distinct being enough to just say,
• 30:43
  I'm this and they're not.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a great, I think it's a great sign.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 30:49
  And I have seen her or she describes scenarios where I hear her
• 30:54
  asserting her
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: boundaries with her peers.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that's amazing.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: Which is way, way more than I was doing at that age.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I was asserting my boundaries at that point in the game.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: And definitely that creative solitude.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I would agree,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: too,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: that there was probably even some multiple things going on,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: based on the kind of mom that I was.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I can see her needing...
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: to have some of that alpha energy.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: and it's,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: at least at this point in the game,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't feel guilt or shame or,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think maybe because I,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: I really like her.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a gift.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: And this might, you know, this.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably off topic.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just thinking,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: what's kind of been on my mind,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: too,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: is she remains trans identified.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't let that... I don't use that as a measure of how she's doing.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:24
  To me,
• 32:24
  that is not even...
• 32:26
  It's not to say that I wouldn't be happy for her to move beyond that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't...
• 32:34
  It's not part of my assessment as far as how she's doing in the
• 32:39
  world or how I feel
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: toward her.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I see a very viable...
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: young adult when I look at my daughter.
• 32:52
  Whose life looks nothing like we think it's supposed to look at
• 32:56
  this point in the game.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't assess it that way either.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't use the social yardstick to measure how she's doing.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's wonderful.
• 33:08
  She's functioning independently in the world and she loves her
• 33:12
  family and I'm very satisfied,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: pleased with that.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's huge.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 33:21
  And she has so much more story to unfold,
• 33:23
  you know,
• 33:24
  so it's amazing to feel that way now.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And also just, you know.
• 33:31
  she has so much ahead of her at the same time you know that's
• 33:34
  the that is always in
• 33:35
  my mind it's a phrase that came that I got from Lisa Marciano
• 33:40
  we are the projects
• 33:41
  of a lifetime and that helps me yeah yep it helps me let go of
• 33:48
  the milestones yeah
• 33:50
  you know that we tend to look for yeah and I I do truly think
• 33:55
  my kids benefit from
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: that because my those things aren't clouding my vision yeah
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: You and I are always talking about what we see.
• 34:06
  And I think that those things can have the potential to really
• 34:10
  distort what we see
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: and create alarm.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, at the end of the day, what we're, you know,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: We always have the opportunity to do the relational work that is,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: at the end of the day,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: we always go back to this,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: and it's at the end of my notes for today,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: that...
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: The answer to all of this,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: like if we could go through,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:51
  some of the things that get in the way in the developmental
• 34:53
  process or something
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: that might,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: But like at the end of the day, it is how do we collect?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: How do we collect?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: What Neufeld says that I just appreciate so much,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: our job as parents is to provide for the attachment needs.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking that.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Tend to the hammock.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Tend to the hammock.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: How is that hammock weave?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Fill in the holes where they may be.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And nature, so that nature can do the work of independence.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where we, as a society, have gone so wrong.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: and you're talking about the social pressure as parents,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: that's a peer orientation.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: By the way,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: as adults,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: our peer orientation,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: when we emerge into parenthood,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have to do parenting,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: push independence,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: shape,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:02
  push my children into this premature socialization where they
• 36:05
  have to share,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: they have to be nice,
• 36:07
  they have to do all this stuff that is actually counter to
• 36:11
  developing an emergent self.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who am I?
• 36:16
  I needs to come first before I can mature into consideration of
• 36:23
  both myself and the
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: other person.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: So what you're saying is... Oh, sorry.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you never develop the I...
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be separate and together.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're just together.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're just together.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: You are only orient towards to the other.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Am I the same as?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: What do I need to do to fit?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because if not, I'm going to be rejected.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we set up that.
• 36:56
  And I'm passionate about it because this is the age when I came
• 37:00
  into the Neufeld
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: approach was at that preschooler,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: in those preschooler years where it's all about spirit.
• 37:09
  It is all about the spirit flowing out of our kids in ways that
• 37:13
  drives us insane.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's totally uncivilized.
• 37:17
  And that's kind of when I had to break out of this societal
• 37:22
  pressure and the peer
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: orientation to like to constantly be like,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:29
  shaping my child's behavior versus there is this other option
• 37:34
  where it's like you
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: are scripting it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're scripting the maturity.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: with my son,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: and sorry if I'm kind of going random directions here,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: but just to give an example even of my son currently,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: who's going to be 12 in May,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: he needs maturity scripted for him.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's what I was going to... He needs...
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: He needs a chore chart.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And here,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 38:00
  this might sound like a paradox because you might hear me do
• 38:04
  all the Neufeld stuff
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: and then say,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: wait a second,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: you're not supposed to do a chore chart.
• 38:09
  You're not supposed to reward with stars and all these things
• 38:12
  for the good behavior.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my older son needs the structure.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: He needs the script or he won't do it.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it helps him.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: It helps him to say, okay, I've got this visual list.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to check things off.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I need reminders.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas my son, who's two years younger, just does it.
• 38:37
  He has that emergent energy to say,
• 38:41
  I'm going to go take care of the animals.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do this.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get myself dressed.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: But my younger son cannot tolerate solitude.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
• 38:52
  So you just see these different pieces,
• 38:55
  like you say,
• 38:55
  of the personalities.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: That was my younger child also could not tolerate solitude.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: He's so social as well.
• 39:03
  So their sibling dynamic is so marked by this dynamic of my
• 39:10
  older son needing the
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: solitude and thriving in it to a certain degree.
• 39:14
  We have to really work him to get him out and with us and
• 39:17
  engaged and playful.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's our work with him, with our relationship.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: But then my younger son is always seeking, pursuing.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I need to connect with my older brother.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I need to connect with – and it's so hard.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: With you.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was my son.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and so if it's not him, it has to be us.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be us because otherwise it's attack, attack, attack.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the only way he can get through is to provoke a reaction.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's – this is like the story of my life as a mother.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's these two personalities.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds like the story of my life too when they were younger.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm kind of going all over the place here.
• 39:52
  But what I'm trying to say is our focus has to be on that soil
• 40:00
  and the trust,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: going back to that faith and trust,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: that if we're actually taking care of the dependency...
• 40:08
  And this isn't like I'm going to make my 17-year-old let me get
• 40:12
  him dressed.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about that.
• 40:13
  But like the physical presence,
• 40:18
  this attachment at the senses,
• 40:20
  how can I stay in touch?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: How can I get the eyes, the smile?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: How can I just collect at that level with my child?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: How am I cultivating some sense of sameness, of belonging?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Are we having family meals together when we can?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: to give that sense of, like, this is our anchor as a family.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's just one example.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you have to do this,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: what are the ways that we're creating those senses of belonging?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then the significance.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: How am I taking responsibility for this relationship to my child,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: whether child or adult,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: when I assume that place of,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: you're important to me.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to show you by reaching out to you.
• 41:09
  I'm going to show you by scheduling a special time where we go
• 41:12
  on a walk or do this thing.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I do this thing that you like with you, even if I don't like it.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: That gives that sense of significance and mattering.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: So just working those levels.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you're going back to...
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: In order that we're letting that nature do the work of growing our job.
• 41:35
  And I just want to be really explicit in what you are
• 41:38
  describing right now.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: And these are the six levels of attachment,
• 41:42
  which you have just written a resource piece that is available
• 41:46
  on the Substack.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: For anybody who wants to be able to reference those,
• 41:50
  you have described those beautifully and made an easy reference
• 41:54
  piece that's on the Substack.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I hear you leaning into those to tend to the hammock.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: So when we are seeing,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: when we're not seeing maybe the emergent energy that we're looking for,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: that this is the way to respond to that.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: Is to tend to the hammock.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to seem counterintuitive.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are, yeah, sorry.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, you go.
• 42:30
  Well,
• 42:30
  because of the,
• 42:31
  because of the culture and the way that we have been raised,
• 42:37
  right.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: and conditioned essentially,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: the structures that are in place right now do not support this approach.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: They support a more, a shaping approach.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And exactly.
• 42:54
  And it's like,
• 42:55
  well,
• 42:55
  I want my child to do more for themselves or his or herself.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I get there?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: By doing more for them.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping for the fruit of independence.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: We get to it through dependence?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: But we can't be black and white about it, number one.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: And number two, it's about
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's about that need to feel loved and significant and connected.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's that nurturing.
• 43:31
  That's like you keep on saying that hammock that's going to
• 43:34
  hold this person that
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to be able to rest in.
• 43:36
  And I'm thinking of the underground system of the Aspen Grove
• 43:40
  that has to be
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: healthy for those individual trees to thrive.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: to emerge and to thrive.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's so interesting.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I've got my,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: my mind's going a few different directions,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking of the very different approach that I took,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: not being aware,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: of sort of Nufeld's model and,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: And to be honest,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: it was,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: it was one day in the kitchen,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: if I might just tell the story,
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: my kids were probably,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if they were preteen,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: I would say 10,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: 13,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: maybe.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I was doing the dishes.
• 44:36
  I remember thinking,
• 44:41
  I was frustrated because they weren't jumping up to help me.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I, and I had not ever really done chores.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: I had tried a few different things.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: I had tried token systems, the things that drove me crazy in school.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: I couldn't manage them.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Those were so beyond me and my skills and didn't feel good to me.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, this can't be the answer, the reward systems.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: This just doesn't feel right to me.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: What have I got?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: I've got rewards.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: I've got guilt.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: I've got nothing else.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: What am I supposed to do here?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because those don't feel good.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: And in that moment, it hit me that all I could do was model.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: I could model loving tending my home.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of making it a chore.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's actually the approach I ended up taking.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, my son does some minor chores.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: My daughter does.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: I discovered,
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: responded much better when I would just invite her,
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 45:47
  or let her know I needed some help rather than giving her a
• 45:50
  consistent thing to do
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: that she would resist,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: and it would turn into this control battle.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: And what went much better was me being very helpful to her.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then when I needed something, I could ask and she'd be there for me.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just came down to this model, like I had to grow up.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: I had to grow up and just model what I wanted to see.
• 46:16
  I want them to want to contribute,
• 46:18
  so I have to model wanting to contribute.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: what comes to mind for me is,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:29
  faculty and others in the Neufeld Institute will often do this comparison,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: and it really hits home for me.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you were to tell your spouse...
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you put your shoes away, I'll make you dinner.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you were to do the same kind of reward and punishment,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: withholding of affection,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: like if your partner doesn't measure up to this behavior,
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: if you don't do this,
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do this.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you, you know, I'm not thinking of a concrete example right now.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: But what we just kind of,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: have been acculturated with from this behavioral theory,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: saturated society,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: is that we can just treat our kids like this.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what we... They should respond obediently.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: They should, you know, not... Wounding does not factor in.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like...
• 47:31
  But yet again,
• 47:32
  if we were to treat our friends,
• 47:34
  and I'm sure some people do.
• 47:35
  I'm sure some people do treat their spouses and friends and
• 47:39
  family members this way as adults.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: I treated my spouse that way.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely I did.
• 47:42
  It was learning through my kids that also helped me to start
• 47:47
  treating him differently.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it was that same idea, literally the golden rule.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: And my aversion to somebody doing something for me out of guilt.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like I had an aversion to that.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so then I realized, oh, then I've got to change, right?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like I have to change my energy.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's where I've got agency,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 48:12
  is doing things because it feels good to do them instead of
• 48:15
  doing them because I
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: feel like I have to.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it brings up this construct of Neufelds that helps me so much.
• 48:32
  I don't know how to put it into an example per se,
• 48:37
  but it's this idea of getting in front of it.
• 48:42
  You know,
• 48:42
  knowing what your child needs or what they're going to be in
• 48:45
  pursuit of.
• 48:49
  And getting there before they have to demand it or that they
• 48:52
  act out because of it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what I hear from you in a sense,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: and it might not be a perfect fit,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: is you're like,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: what do I need to do to show that I care,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: to offer help,
• 49:09
  to do these things so that you don't get stuck in this position
• 49:17
  with your daughter
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: of being like,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't help me, so I'm not going to help you.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're generous and you're helping.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:27
  And that's going to be more softening to her helping you than
• 49:32
  you doubling down in
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: insisting that she show you deference first.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: Now, yes, absolutely.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: And this too was kind of an awareness when through the,
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: some of the most difficult times,
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: when she was 14,
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: like 13 through 15 was so hard.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: So hard.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I would literally have those thoughts.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: I would have fantasies about showing her.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'll show her what a bad mom really looks like.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 50:08
  But luckily,
• 50:09
  I was able to play that out and realize,
• 50:15
  then I'll just reinforce her story.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's just going to reinforce what she thinks of me right now.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: Does that get me closer to what I want with her?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: But also just that that is our natural go-to for so many people.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think often it's not even conscious.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's that you hurt me.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: And now I hurt you.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's conscious at all.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so either.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to break it down except I think when it happens,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: the more that you can be aware of how it feels inside.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just try to start to... I think that this consciousness...
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think this goes hand in hand in a sense.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is another layer of a multidimensional map.
• 51:19
  Because I think for many of us to even have the ability to
• 51:22
  reflect on our,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: feel our emotions,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: we have to have a soft heart.
• 51:30
  Otherwise we might not even feel them,
• 51:33
  even though they're moving us to act in these ways.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also this level of being able to reflect,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: which is already coming from a fairly mature place,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: to be able to be separate enough from what's happening to you,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: this idea of life happening to you,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: an emotion moving you,
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just happening to you.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: you're so in it, you actually can't be aware of it.
• 52:02
  So I want to say that if anyone listening is like,
• 52:04
  I don't know what it feels like,
• 52:06
  it's okay.
• 52:08
  It's just,
• 52:08
  this is something that hopefully over time you can start to try
• 52:13
  to be aware of.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:16
  But I know when I'm in that place that you're describing,
• 52:18
  I feel terrible inside.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel terrible, clenched up,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know, hollow, you know, it has such a palpable bad feeling to it.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that helps me now, you know, because I can do this now.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: I, I have not always been able to do this, but I can do this now.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can say, Ooh, I don't want to be here.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: I can feel where I am and say, this is not where I want to stay.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: a couple of just sort of phrases and thoughts and ways to name it,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think were coming to me as you were talking.
• 53:02
  I think part of what I would experience that I think is always
• 53:07
  a red flag is a
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: sense of righteousness.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how dare you treat me this way?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'll show you.
• 53:19
  type of thing that I think comes from our own sense of not
• 53:27
  being seen and our own
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: desire for significance.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, interesting.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 53:34
  that we're not experiencing in that relationship with our
• 53:37
  children for whom we have
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: sacrificed so much.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: So much.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that is an invitation for us to learn to grow ourselves up,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: difficult,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 53:55
  Like this is complex and a little heady and not maybe helpful
• 54:03
  in the moment.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I think ultimately, big picture-wise, that's the invitation, right?
• 54:11
  Because what we're wanting from our kids is not something
• 54:14
  they're capable of.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: That has not emerged yet for them.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well said.
• 54:25
  Yeah,
• 54:25
  and what comes to mind for me,
• 54:27
  too,
• 54:27
  is this sense,
• 54:28
  when you say righteousness...
• 54:30
  Where I also go is what we're going to talk about a couple
• 54:33
  episodes from now,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is that integrative process,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is when I'm in that righteous place,
• 54:39
  it is pretty much guaranteed that I am operating from a purity
• 54:44
  of emotion.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not seeing or feeling on the one hand and on the other hand.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, I love my child.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, I'm super pissed.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: I feel terrible.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: I feel slighted.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm just in the, I'm slighted.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's the track I'm on.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Full blast.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a trench and I'm, you know, just in that neural pathway.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am right there.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not tempered by, on the other hand, on the other hand, oh, they...
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: There could be so many different on the other hands.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, I feel slated.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on the other hand, their attention was somewhere else.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, they're still immature.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have all this stuff together.
• 55:37
  On the other hand,
• 55:37
  I know they love me,
• 55:38
  but this was just the wrong moment to bring this up.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many on the other hands.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: But we can't access them in that purity of emotion.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: In that moment, it's just full.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're tired, it's worse.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's worse.
• 56:00
  There's just all these reasons why we can be taken so strongly
• 56:05
  by this emotion.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes maybe it's like, what can you do in that moment?
• 56:12
  I heard someone,
• 56:13
  one of the Neufeld faculty say,
• 56:15
  it's a good thing love is so huge.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just developing a go-to for yourself where you're like...
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: For those moments,
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: where you aren't away from your child,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: you don't have the time to kind of de-escalate yourself,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: And take some time before you react, you know.
• 56:38
  And so a lot of this work is going to happen on the other side
• 56:42
  of that moment.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and that's, again, where the grace is going to be important.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: But also the...
• 56:53
  If we can orient to this whole process in a way where we can
• 57:01
  accept that we're
• 57:02
  still emerging and that all of this is happening to help us
• 57:06
  continue our own maturity.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's such beauty in that, I think.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that is maybe what parenting is.
• 57:23
  A big part of what parenting is about is for us to help us
• 57:27
  finish emerging and reach maturity.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is part of nature's design.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: I truly do.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because what you're experiencing, too, is so much of that frustration.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't working.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my goodness.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: So much adaptation.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: All that futility that will force something different.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Or you'll just lose your mind.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that's, you know, that's what it came down to for me.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: What I'm doing is not working.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's just not working.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to figure out something new, you know.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: And again, luckily, I guess, seeing...
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: that my toolbox was deficient.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: Period.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: It just is.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: I have to try something different.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to figure something new out.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 58:42
  So could I,
• 58:44
  may I kind of,
• 58:44
  kind of bring us to a close just talking about play?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, please.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about play.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:54
  So,
• 58:56
  so one of the huge,
• 58:58
  we've,
• 58:58
  we've kind of covered a lot of territory here.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: And as always,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: there's so much more to say,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: but I just want to say,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: as we come to a close,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 59:11
  One of the most essential arenas for the emergent process to
• 59:17
  unfold is through play.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: And.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yay.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hallelujah.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: So in contrast to work.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 59:30
  Play is this kind of freedom of exploration and expression in
• 59:38
  what Nufeld calls a
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: bounded space.
• 59:40
  So when you told that story about your 14-year-old daughter,
• 59:44
  where you guys were there...
• 59:46
  You know,
• 59:46
  while she lived in a trailer by herself,
• 59:51
  you were,
• 59:52
  but that was a bounded space.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: She had freedom,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: but she had the bounded space of your protection,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: of your safety,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: that allowed her to just take on this experience of living independently.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so she was, you know, it's free from outcome.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's no consequences.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's no repercussions.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where both children and adults,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: we are free to try things on,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: take that steering wheel,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: develop our personalities,
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: our interests,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: our creativity.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: We can be people we're not because it's not for real.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: Pretend.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not for real,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: but through that process,
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: a child does get to emerge into those distinct personality traits,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: and it's,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: it's really about that,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: that exploration of the new and,
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully future down the road,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: we'll do much more dedicated time to play,
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: but it's where we talk about that neuroplasticity that,
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:06
  Just the brain development and what Neufeld argues is play is
• 1:01:12
  kind of creates the
• 1:01:14
  conditions in itself that school can actually work with in an
• 1:01:18
  ideal scenario.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: It is actually play that develops problem solving.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a play that ignites curiosity and interest.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: The question asking,
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: the exploration,
• 1:01:33
  the turning something around and looking at it from different perspectives.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: It is how mammals learn.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: We learn through play.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: All mammals.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, all mammals play.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why I wanted to end here is just,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know I spoke about the collecting again,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: which is like,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: how do you,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's working those attachment layers.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: getting the eyes,
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: getting a smile,
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: getting a touch,
• 1:02:05
  showing significance by the fact that you're paying attention
• 1:02:07
  to your child or
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: entering into their world,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: coming alongside them.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say that establishing some form of playfulness is
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: is not only kind of helping to create that space for your own child to,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: just start to feel those twinkles of emergence,
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: within themselves.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're opening that space for that emergent process in them, but you're
• 1:02:45
  You're also allowing yourself to enter into – it also fulfills
• 1:02:52
  that attachment aspect.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: For us, you're saying.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, together.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: And in the relationship.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a way of connecting.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sharing something in common,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: if it's an inside joke or,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: funny videos you're sharing or,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the playfulness is.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: with my,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: I have a,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: my younger brother,
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: I have shared this with you personally,
• 1:03:17
  has had kind of a really nightmarish health condition for the
• 1:03:21
  past two years.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: And, and his lifeline is,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: has been the playful banter on the family text chain,
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: doing March Madness College basketball banter.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: And again, for him, he's kind of like my son.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: The college basketball,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: the sports,
• 1:03:40
  they're fulfilling some dual roles for him as well in terms of
• 1:03:44
  structuring his
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: world and attachment and all those things.
• 1:03:48
  But it's become this way of him feeling nurtured and love with
• 1:03:53
  our family.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: He lives apart from everyone.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's going through kind of extreme conditions of suffering.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:02
  But yet he's finding beauty through this playful bond that we
• 1:04:08
  have together.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's just kind of how I wanted to wrap things up,
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: that play is the engine for growth and emergence.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also a way for us to bridge into our child's life,
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: whether adolescent or adult or younger,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: and rekindle that attachment with them as well.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: I love that so much.
• 1:04:36
  And as you were talking about your brother,
• 1:04:37
  it brought to mind my brother in the nursing home.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: And play was also his lifeline.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: The way it connects us to each other.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: And feels good.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: I do think there's a lot to that.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:04:56
  you were talking earlier about how bad it feels when we are in
• 1:05:00
  that sort of
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: punitive mindset.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: And this feels so good.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we have to hit on this social idea,
• 1:05:13
  this behaviorist idea that you can't reward bad behavior and
• 1:05:18
  that that's how play
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_03: might come across.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: And what a harmful idea that is.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know, that is conditioned into us, you know?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so I, I just, I wanted to bring that up as we are talking about play.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_03: And as we were talking about using play as a response,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: to our child's behavior,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: that it,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: it tends that hammock,
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: It strengthens that hammock, like you said, it is how we learn.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to teach your child something, play.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's how we learn.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's how mammals learn.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_03: And just the connection that it offers both the parent and the child.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that that is more supportive of this emergent process.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_03: probably than anything else we could do.
• 1:06:25
  Yeah,
• 1:06:25
  it's filling that void with creativity,
• 1:06:28
  whether in solitude or together with another.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, what was the statement?
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: There was something said about like,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: something about like that neurological wiring,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: which we,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's like mechanistic,
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like when you,
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: especially with,
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think of this with my son,
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: the hypersensitive child,
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: where he has a lot of defenses up towards
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: to attachment, to emotional attachment, to play.
• 1:06:56
  He's very defended against it because it's not something he
• 1:07:00
  knows already.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's emergent.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's exploratory.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Curiosity is sometimes too vulnerable for him.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: So he expresses his emergent self in counter will more easily.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say like, no, I'm not going to wear the coat.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: So as you know, counter will is also...
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Part of this emergent process is defining the self, you know.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: But whether it's the creative solitude or facilitating the attachment,
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: that is how we learn kind of that call and response.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Call and response.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: And our brains tune to that.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: They tune together.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is that.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful synchronicity.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful symphony of separateness and togetherness.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they tune together.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, a beautiful symphony.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:08:08
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:08:11
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:08:15
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the conversation.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_03: As always,
• 1:08:21
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:08:24
  comments and hope you
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_03: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.