Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / How to Leave a Legacy as a Leader

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How to Leave a Legacy as a Leader · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

• 0:00
  Welcome to another episode of Chatting with Experts where I, Paula Okonneh
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  speak with fabulous women from Africa, from the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
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  These women share my mission, which is to educate, empower,
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  and encourage women globally.
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  And they are, that's the, my interviewees are professionals
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  and or successful entrepreneurs.
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  The topic today is Thriving at the Top, and in this episode we are gonna explore
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  how women can shift from representation to influence while embracing practices
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  that sustain purpose, presence, and long-term impact at the top.
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  My guest who's gonna be joining me in a few minutes is a seasoned business
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  and HR executive with over two decades of experience across global
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  corporations and high growth startups.
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  She has held senior leadership roles at world class organizations, including
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  Johnson and Johnson, GE and Bank of America, and currently she serves as
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  the Vice President of Human Resources... With that I want to welcome Maureen
• 1:24
  Aryee to Chatting with the Experts.
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  Hello, Maureen.
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  Hello, Paula.
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  I hope I got your name right, Aryee?
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  You did, you did.
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  You absolutely did.
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  Thank you for having me.
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  Absolutely.
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  Thank you for saying yes.
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  I don't take it for granted when anybody comes onto the show because
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  they're sharing my mission, which is, as I said earlier on, to educate,
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  encourage, and empower women globally.
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  So I gave just a snippet of your very impressive bio.
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  Let's expand on it because I know, of course.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  You've had a remarkably diverse career, and so tell us a little bit about how
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  you walked through this journey and what really guided you to do this.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  You know, my career has been intentionally non-linear.
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  I began my career in the space of IT right out of undergrad and
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  joined GE as you mentioned earlier.
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  After a few years there, I decided to explore some other paths and
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  got into financial services, and eventually decided to launch my own
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  business in the real estate industry.
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  And so I did that for several years, but really felt like I still wasn't quite
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  there in terms of my purpose, in terms of what I wanted to dedicate myself to.
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  And so I returned to school and pursued an MBA and out of that MBA
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  got recruited by Johnson & Johnson and ended up spending 10 years with
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  them and it was a great opportunity to really launch into the field of HR
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  and really grow my experience in that field and launch myself, quite honestly
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  into a number of senior leadership and global roles with that company.
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  And after 10 years with them, I decided to do yet another pivot and take those
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  experiences into the biotech startup world, where I am now and this was
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  really a decision I made to have my imprint on an organization that is
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  being built from the ground up to be able to really shape culture, build
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  leaders, and influence what that looks like at the start of an organization.
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  And so that is how I've dedicated the last several years of my career.
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  And, there's been some really unique lessons I would say that I've learned,
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  , pivoting throughout these companies and growing into various roles.
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  And, one thing, if I can share is, you know, I've come to realize that
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  it's not really just about talent.
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  Talent is key.
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  Talent is what gets your foot in the door.
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  , but there is quite a bit of capacity that's required to navigate the turbulent
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  seasons that organizations go through.
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  There's stamina that's required to really influence at senior leadership roles.
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  And then there's also purpose.
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  There's a real place for knowing your purpose and having that guide to the
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  decisions that you make into various roles and into various chapters of life.
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  And so that I would say it's a very high level overview of the journey that
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  I've been on that brings me here today.
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  Wow.
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  Say I'm speechless because I'm so impressed.
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  You know?
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  And but something that jumped out at me was purpose, because you mentioned that
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  after you undergraduate, you actually had opened a business for some time
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  and then you felt this is not quite it.
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  I'm not quite fulfilling my purpose.
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  And that's why you went back to do your MBA and ultimately
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  ended up at GE for 10, GE, right.
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  J and J. J and J.
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  J and j for 10 years.
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  So that purpose comes with a lot of responsibility and a lot of
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  emotions and you know, especially when it comes to leadership.
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  And , when we talked some time ago, you had talked about emotional capacity.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And how that is helpful for enabling leaders to stay at the top.
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  That's right.
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  Can you elaborate on that?
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  Because especially as I know you've had experience with startups
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  and startups and leadership.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Well, they go hand in hand, but you really need to have that leadership anchored.
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  So can you talk a bit about that?
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  That's right.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yeah.
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  Emotional capacity I've found, has become one of my favorite topics because
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  I encounter it on an, on a daily basis where it exists, where it does not exist.
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  And you know, maybe I should define it for you.
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  It's really the ability to stay grounded and clear and effective under pressure.
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  It's that internal strength that really guides your judgment.
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  But it's also that internal strength that enables you to show up
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  present and calm in your presence.
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  And it's really what enables a leader to be relentless, , in the face of
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  intensity when the stakes are high.
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  I find that emotional capacity is what makes a huge difference between
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  leaders that can mobilize teams and organizations behind them after a
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  specific direction or course because of the presence that they carry themselves.
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  So that, you know, it's a long definition, but I think you get the essence of it.
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  I talk about it a lot because I've come to discover that organizations, again,
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  go through lots of turbulent seasons.
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  An example that I love to give that most individuals that have worked in
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  the corporate environment have faced before is that of reorganizations.
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  A lot of organizations go through reorgs, restructures, transformations, what
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  have you, and in those moments there's usually quite a bit of anxiety all around.
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  Employees, excuse me, may face anxiety around, will I have a job, do I have
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  a future with this organization?
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  Leaders are concerned about morale, they're concerned about productivity.
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  Even high performing employees are concerned around whether they've got
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  a future with the organization or not.
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  And so all around there tends to be high intensity.
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  But in my years of experience, what I've come to realize is
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  that as a leader, my emotional stability is what the organization
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  is, what my team feeds off of.
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  And the clarity of mind and presence I have is just as important as the
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  decisions I make in those moments because leaders set the emotional
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  temperature of an organization.
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  And those that have built the muscle of exercising and demonstrated strong
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  emotional capacity, again, are able to stabilize organizations in chaotic
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  seasons and are able to move them towards fulfilling a specific direction.
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  And so I think, it's one of those that.
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  No matter which part of the organization, you look in terms of leadership
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  levels, you tend to see gaps.
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  Even very senior leaders that are, you know, so to speak, at the top of
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  their game, you oftentimes see gaps.
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  And the ability to close that gap really determines high
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  effective a leader can be.
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  Thanks for explaining that.
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  But then where does emotional intelligence that we hear so much
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  about these days, where does that come into play with emotional capacity?
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  Is it like a subset?
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  Because you talked about reorganization and we are living
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  in a time of reorganization.
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  We are hearing it.
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  We are feeling it.
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  Some of us have been impacted directly with it.
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  That's right.
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  Yeah, no, that's a great question.
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  And the two are interrelated, although in my mind I look at emotional intelligence
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  speaking more to your ability to read a room, your ability to know when to pivot.
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  Your ability to know how to manage relationships.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  How to respond in certain circumstances, and some of them does.
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  Some of those are also at play when it comes to emotional capacity.
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  But emotional capacity, really, if you think about a tank being full, there
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  are certain things that contribute to one's emotional tank being full.
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  And, , for one individual, when that emotional tank is full,
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  it spills over for another.
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  When that emotional tank is full, there's the ability to
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  keep it from spilling over.
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  If I can use that analogy.
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  And so the intense pressures of a moment can either bring out strength, bring
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  out clarity, bring out good judgment, bring out good direction in a leader.
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  Or it can break an individual down.
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  It's really how you respond is the difference between the emotional
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  intelligence and the emotional capacity?
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  One, an individual that does not have emotional capacity tends to break down.
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  You hear a lot about burnout.
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  Yes, burnout can be contributed based off of, you know, workload
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  and lifestyles, et cetera.
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  But I also believe that emotional capacity enables individuals.
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  To manage certain pressures so that there is less burnout.
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  I often see emotional capacity playing out when individuals are having to respond
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  to situations where the stakes are really high and are falling under the pressure.
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  And so hopefully that, that kind of helps.
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  But the two I would say are not the same, but definitely
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  do overlap in certain areas.
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  I see that.
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  I understand that now.
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  Because we're talking about leaders and organizations and emotional capacity, then
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  being able to either, and I'm looking at my notes, break under pressure or be able
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  to, you know, keep things under the wrap.
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  That's right.
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  For leaders that have worked really hard to get to the top
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  mm-hmm.
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  And they get there and it seems like they're no longer successful,
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  how would you handle that?
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  What makes the difference?
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  Because there's some people who are continuously finding... there's no
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  ceiling for them in other words.
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  They climb and then they see something and they keep climbing.
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  And then there are others who've always had like a goal and they get there.
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  And then there's like the burnout comes there because like, there's nothing else.
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  That's right.
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  That's right.
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  That's right.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, in my role as an HR leader, we are often placing specific
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  individuals that have had a history of success, of accomplishments.
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  We're placing those individuals in critical roles because of their past
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  accomplishments with the expectation that they will deliver similarly
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  in, in these critical roles.
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  And I've found that sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
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  And one of the reasons is exactly what you just mentioned, is when we are seeking to
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  achieve a certain level of success and a certain height, there is a specific drive.
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  There is the hunger.
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  There is the ambition.
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  Unfortunately though, when some individuals reach that height,
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  that hunger is no longer as, as intense as it used to be.
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  That drive is no longer as intense as it used to be.
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  There's this sense of "I have attained", right?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And unfortunately, when those individuals with that mindset tend to stop growing,
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  the key and the difference that you're pointing out between those that
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  continue to identify new opportunities and continue to innovate and grow
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  and move from one opportunity to the other, is that they're seeking for it.
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  There's still a desire.
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  They are individuals that are lifelong learners that want to continue to evolve
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  themselves as individuals to grow, to learn, to influence, to make impact,
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  versus those that rest on their laurels , and you know, really believe that
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  their experiences speak for themselves.
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  Those experiences may open certain doors, but again, to continue to make long
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  lasting impact and to continue to have a reputation of being successful leader,
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  that drive needs to continue to be there.
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  And the intentionality behind growing oneself needs to be there.
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  I often compare the leadership journey to mountain climbing, right?
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  I'm sure you've heard that before.
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  It's initially you are building muscle.
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  You are on difficult terrain.
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  You are learning discipline.
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  You are demonstrating capacity, demonstrating ability.
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  You're on that first, what I would call that first stage of that leadership rise.
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  But then you get to that second stage and sort of you reach in that summit as a...
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  Right.
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  As a mountain climber may and, but if you think about it, when you reach
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  that summit, that air is often thinner.
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  Yeah.
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  You know,
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  I love it.
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  The environment is very different, right?
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  Any slight misstep could be dangerous.
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  The implications are bigger.
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  It's the same with leadership.
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  The exposure is greater as you've reached a certain height and the turbulence
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  can be felt because as the saying goes, the buck stops with you as the leader.
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  And what you do there really determines the implications to a
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  larger group of individuals through an organization or to a team.
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  And so it's really important for an individual to really master
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  not just climbing and ascending.
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  But sustaining that success once you do get there, and some of the key things are
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  exactly what we've spoken about, which is the emotion building that emotional
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  capacity, but also sustaining that drive and caring about the outcomes.
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  When you're concerned about the outcomes that you want to deliver,
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  you will be concerned about building whatever capacity is required to
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  be able to deliver those results.
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  Yes.
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  You really did a good job of summarizing that, but at the same time, making it
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  so crystal clear because especially as we talk, in 2025, I mean, we are
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  hearing so much about, we can call it reorganization of organizations.
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  . Another way is, you know, what's it called trimming organizations down to size.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Reengineering.
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  Reengineering.
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  That's another one.
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  Yes.
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  But there's an underlying thing that everybody's, it's
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  like the elephant in the room.
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  It's like, will AI?
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  Is AI?
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  Or will AI...
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Be responsible for all of these decisions being made?
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  And how can we adapt to this new technology that's
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  here and is here to stay?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  You know, while still keeping up morale and letting people know
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  that they are still important.
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  That's right.
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  That's right.
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  Yeah.
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  I love that you go there because, you know, it's directly connected to the
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  point I raised earlier around will you keep evolving yourself as a leader?
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  Will you keep learning and growing?
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  And one of those areas is in the space of technology.
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  It can be in the space of, you know, your emotional strength, but also in
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  very tangible ways such as in the area of technology and now in, in the era of AI.
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  You know, we as leaders talk about it all the time in terms of how do we leverage
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  AI, how do we not get left behind?
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  How do we ensure that it is a part and parcel of how we
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  operate on an everyday basis.
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  And so for me and my team, for example, you know, we have done analysis of all
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  the different areas in which AI can improve our productivity, can improve our
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  efficiency, can improve the work we do.
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  Thankfully it is applicable in every sphere, in every function, in every,
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  , role that an individual can be in.
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  I do think that the key though is to really identify how each
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  individual can actually upskill themselves in the space of AI.
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  And so if you're in HR, as I am in, well, what does that mean for the future of HR?
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  What does that mean for the future of HR?
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  And, in addition to efficiencies and in addition to productivity, there's
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  also the space of ethical use of AI.
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  You brought it up in relation to decision making.
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  I lead an HR team and you know, when it comes to talent acquisition, for
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  example, we see a lot of technology emerging that is related to the
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  selection and assessment of talent.
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  But it is one of those errors where decision making cannot be left solely
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  to technology, where it is absolutely critical that, you know, human
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  intervention, human interpretation, human involvement is involved to
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  understand and to ensure that the right decisions are being made.
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  Because quite honestly, humans build the algorithms and the prompts
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  behind AI and other technology.
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  Therefore, biases can still be built in.
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  And so that's where for us as leaders, it's critical that we are understanding
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  where the effectiveness can be leveraged and where a line must be drawn so that
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  other disadvantages are not inherently built into the process because certain
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  decision making is left to a system or to algorithms or machines to make.
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  And so there is absolutely, absolutely, , critical decision making points
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  for leaders in, in every sphere.
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  And, I would say really, you know, the onus is on us to not only learn the
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  technology, but understand how to use it so that it produces the right impact
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  that we desire versus negative impact.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yes.
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  I agree with you on a hundred percent of that because probably about a year
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  and a half I had a guest on who was talking about AI and her approach
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  was ethical AI as she called it.
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  And there's something you did say about, you know, , like in the case of you being
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  an HR, that we do have to have human beings sitting on the table with the IT
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  department or those who are in technology because these systems are indeed
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  designed and a program by human beings.
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  And so we need to ensure that whatever is going on, we call the
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  behind the scenes is ethical and is not detrimental to the human race
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  and to the organizations because organizations are made up of people.
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  Absolutely.
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  So I commend you on saying, you know, explaining that again,
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  because the worry is there.
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  I mean, most people are, or most people who are either in the employment sector
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  or are looking to be employed by the younger generation people, students, they
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  are a bit worried about these things.
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  But as somebody said, you know, people were worried about the internet.
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  Absolutely, absolutely no I think with every new technology, you know,
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  I break it down into what can I learn about it, how do I learn to
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  use it in a way that quite honestly accelerates my impact as a leader.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And everyone really needs to ask themselves that question because I'm
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  using AI every day in personal life, on the job, in so many different ways.
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  And it has absolutely, absolutely, compounded my efficiency and
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  speed in so many things I do.
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  And so if you're not leveraging that, you will absolutely be outrun and out
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  shone by individuals that are taking advantage of it to boost themselves.
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  And then hand in hand with that, obviously, at a broader level in
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  terms of how organizations and systems are being set up is the other
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  point we spoke about in terms of the ethical usage and the governance.
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  Ethical usage typically is going to require that there's also governance
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  in place to ensure there are some checks and balances, but ultimately,
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  I do believe it will be, , just like as you said, the use of the internet,
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  you know, 20 or so years ago that was new and we had to get familiar with it.
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  And now four year olds, six year olds, seven year olds know how to
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  get online and leverage the internet.
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  And so we've got to embrace it, I think is, , is the underlining theme.
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  We have got to embrace it.
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  Wow.
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  So one last question before we round up here 'cause this is fascinating.
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  I could talk with you forever.
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  Absolutely.
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  About this, but as someone who has built leaders, you've shaped cultures.
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  You've led transformations, just as we are talking about, how 20 years ago or
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  20, 25 years ago, the internet seemed like a threat and now 2-year-old, three
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  year olds get on it in a nanosecond.
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  Exactly, exactly.
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  So, what legacy and what impact would you like to leave
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  mm-hmm.
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  With the leaders now that you are influencing or you are
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  walking us alongside with?
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  Yeah.
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  You know, the topic of legacy is an important one I think that every
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  leader should be concerned about.
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  'cause really if you delve into , the definition of leadership.
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  It includes not just leading in the literal sense, but it is
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  how you're developing others.
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  It is how you are enabling others to fulfill to maximize
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  their potential, right?
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  And so when I think about legacy, I think about it in the sense that
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  it's the impact that my life can make as a result of my purpose on Earth.
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  And I, as well as any other individual that's concerned about legacy, is
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  only able to leave a legacy when they understand their purpose.
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  And so legacy and purpose, in my mind go hand in hand.
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  It's recognizing that each one of us has a destiny, has a purpose, has a specific
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  assignment, so to speak whether you wanna say here on earth, whether you wanna say
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  in a specific role, in the city you're living in, your family, you can define
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  it in so many different dimensions.
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  But I am a firm believer that we do all have specific callings,
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  so to speak, and assignments that we need to embrace and live into.
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  And so when you think about that in the broader context of what legacy
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  is, you know, for me, I've dedicated my career to building strong leaders.
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  And, I am thrilled when I look back at individuals that perhaps I mentored,
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  you know, early in their career that are now operating in their own right as
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  strong leaders in the corporate space, or even individuals I met who were already
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  leaders put into some of those critical positions, high impact roles I spoke
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  about earlier, but are finding themselves challenged and stretched beyond what
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  they've ever been before because perhaps it's the biggest role they've been in or
• 26:20
  the most critical that they've ever been in, and having the privilege of being
• 26:23
  able to coach as you know, as an HR leader, coach, and guide them in, here
• 26:30
  are your strengths, here are the gaps, and here's how you need , to fill those gaps.
• 26:35
  It brings me immense pleasure , and I'm absolutely fulfilled when I
• 26:38
  look back and see those individuals that embrace the challenge and
• 26:42
  were able to make that impact.
• 26:45
  You know, I think that every leader has to ask themselves
• 26:49
  three fundamental questions.
• 26:50
  Where am I going that will make my life matter?
• 26:54
  That's purpose.
• 26:57
  What am I doing now that will make my life matter?
• 27:00
  That's intentional action.
• 27:03
  And who am I developing that will make my life live on?
• 27:07
  That's legacy, you know, because we often think about legacy as something
• 27:12
  that's tangible, you know, especially when you think about in family estates
• 27:18
  and, you know, a legacy of something that is handed over from family to
• 27:23
  family, and those are typically tangible.
• 27:25
  And if it's tangible, it also means that it can be lost, right?
• 27:29
  But I think a legacy beyond that in the sense of what you leave within
• 27:34
  others, because that is intangible and that can be passed on from
• 27:41
  generation to generation, right?
• 27:43
  And so it's important to number one, understand that you have a purpose.
• 27:48
  Understand what that purpose is.
• 27:50
  Be intentional about living it.
• 27:53
  That's what enables one to leave a legacy.
• 27:59
  Oh boy, this is so good.
• 28:04
  I would love to continue this conversation with you.
• 28:06
  We probably have do that of course with the members of the audience.
• 28:11
  Yes, yes.
• 28:12
  But...
• 28:13
  absolutely.
• 28:13
  For those who are listening or viewing this online, how can they engage with you?
• 28:20
  Because this is such stimulating conversation.
• 28:22
  It needs to be continued.
• 28:24
  Absolutely.
• 28:24
  Absolutely.
• 28:25
  And I would love to engage with the audience.
• 28:27
  I can be found on LinkedIn using my name.
• 28:30
  I can be found on Instagram, social media.
• 28:33
  All of my social media handles use my full name and so easy to find me.
• 28:38
  And would absolutely look forward to engaging in this dialogue
• 28:42
  further with the audience.
• 28:43
  I find that I also have a lot to learn from these discussions.
• 28:48
  And it's amazing some of the things that come out of these conversations.
• 28:52
  Yes.
• 28:52
  You know, I have such a respect for people who have the growth mindset, because
• 28:58
  I say I learn something new every day.
• 29:02
  And when you learn something new, I mean, it's, sometimes it takes my
• 29:07
  breath away, but other times it's like, it's you know, like building blocks.
• 29:10
  You learn this yesterday and then next week you learn something
• 29:12
  else and you can connect them and say, wow, this is just so good.
• 29:17
  Absolutely.
• 29:19
  That's what I say about your conversation with me today.
• 29:23
  Thank you.
• 29:23
  Thank you.
• 29:24
  Absolutely.
• 29:26
  And for those of you who are listening to this or viewing it on YouTube or
• 29:31
  wherever else you get your podcast, just like Maureen has been a guest on my
• 29:36
  show, reach out to me on my website if you'd like to be a guest, and my website
• 29:40
  is www.chattingwiththeexperts.com.
• 29:45
  I am on LinkedIn.
• 29:46
  You can look for Paula Okonneh.
• 29:48
  On my business page, which is Chatting with the Experts.
• 29:51
  On Instagram, my handle there is at chat_experts_podcast and I'm
• 29:59
  on Facebook as Paula Okonneh.
• 30:02
  Even better still on my business page, which is Chatting with the Experts.
• 30:06
  And last but not least, I'd love for you to subscribe to my YouTube channel,
• 30:12
  which is Chatting with the Experts.
• 30:14
  There, you'll be able to see so many of the interviews I've done with
• 30:18
  amazing women who share my mission, just like Maureen, which is to educate,
• 30:26
  empower, and encourage women globally.
• 30:31
  So now we'll open up the floor to all those who joined us.
• 30:34
  And again, Maureen, thank you so much for this.
• 30:38
  Thank you, Paula.
• 30:39
  Thank you for the opportunity.
• 30:40
  I enjoyed our chat.