Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / Serial entrepreneur Agnes Kozera shares her lessons learned after her Google acquisition and launching startup #3, Podcorn

Transcript

Serial entrepreneur Agnes Kozera shares her lessons learned after her Google acquisition and launching startup #3, Podcorn · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  This is Agnes Cazera for Female Startup Club.
• 0:12
  Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Female Startup Club. I'm your host, Doon Roisin, and joining me on the show today is serial entrepreneur Agnes Kozira. She's the co-founder of a marketplace called Podcorn. Podcorn is a platform built specifically for the podcasting community, hooray for me, that matches brands with podcasters to help monetize podcast shows.
• 0:35
  Prior to that, she was building a super successful influencer platform called FameBit, which was acquired by Google in 2016. And this episode is a really great deep dive into what it's like building a tech platform right the way through to the exit. We're covering her journey of building three companies, how she sold FameBit to Google, and the lessons she's brought forward into PodCon.
• 0:58
  And while I've got you here, please do subscribe and rate and review the podcast to help other ears find us. This is Agnes for Female Startup Club. Cool. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Agnes. I would love to start by getting you to give us the rundown of what Podcorn is and who it's for.
• 1:19
  Absolutely. So Podcorn is a self-service marketplace for brands and podcasters where brands and podcasters can collaborate directly on native branded content. So anything that lives natively inside the podcast or could be a holstered ad or could be an interview, kind of like what we're doing right now. So the stuff we focus on is less
• 1:41
  traditional radio ad spots, but more content that lives within the podcast that's very native, organic to what the podcaster is already doing, and allows brands to tap into different experts within different industries in podcasting that can really help their product connect with listeners on a more authentic level.
• 2:05
  Amazing. Super relevant to me. Love it. I always love to find out about what the light bulb moment was for when you decided to start the business. But before that, I want to go back to the very, very start for you, you know, around the time of when you launched your first business, SeasonsBox. Because I feel like you have so much background info that's probably really relevant to where you are today. So let's go back to the very beginning. I want to hear about SeasonsBox.
• 2:31
  Yeah, absolutely. That was a fun company. So I had no idea I would end up in entrepreneurship or anything related to starting a company. I was pursuing law school and on an entirely different journey. But then Seedland's Box happened to me sort of as a passion project. It was very early on in the subscription commerce days. Early on, I think Birchbox had just
• 3:00
  founded at the time, the first full-size subscription service box for your home body and spirit. So kind of sending you a season in a box. And at the time, I was a starving student. I didn't really have money to market my products, but I was watching a ton of YouTube and YouTube had made me purchase a ton of things. And I was so inspired by so many creators that I
• 3:24
  were inspirational to me. And I had reached out to see if maybe I can send them my product. And they were super excited and we had collaborated. And before I knew it, I had a 20x return in under 3 months.
• 3:37
  which that was sort of the light bulb moment that, wow, you know, kind of what I have here is this neat little business, but what's really driving it. And actually the companies that were partnering with me to be in my box wanted to figure out how am I doing this YouTube thing that's driving the conversion. So at that time, I saw that there was a bigger opportunity and a bigger business that really led to the development of Famebit, which was really exciting.
• 4:04
  Yeah, I definitely want to talk so much about FameBit. And I think, well, we can go into it now if you want, rather than coming back to it. I'd love to learn how that got started with you and your co-founder and a bit of the journey of what happened there. And obviously being acquired by Google is just such an amazing achievement that I'd love to dive deep into because we haven't covered a lot in the podcast around having your company kind of like right through to exit. So yeah, I'd love to keep learning about what happened there with FameBit.
• 4:33
  Yeah. So with FameBit, both my co-founder and I, he was doing another startup. I was just in starting law school and we both saw an opportunity in this small subscription commerce company that was this much bigger thing, which was connecting brands to YouTube stars who had no idea how to go about it. And because I was a small business and I saw the effects of it myself, we already knew that
• 4:58
  it was going to work. So we decided to drop everything and move to Silicon Valley to, because we're, we're both Canadian actually to start the company. And we ended up actually joining an accelerator 500 startups, um, which was super helpful. I can't say enough about joining an accelerator. I think, you know, as a first time founder, uh,
• 5:23
  a community of other founders who are going through the same pains as you, but also access to investors. So through that, we were able to build our product, create a lot of value. We also raised funding, which was really incredible. And then we had started FameBit in 2013. And then within three short years, in 2016, Google came knocking and
• 5:47
  which was absolutely a dream come true. And we got acquired and the company integrated into YouTube. And while at my time at Google, I worked there as a product manager, which was also very exciting and got to work on different things. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind of a journey.
• 6:07
  to say the least. Yes, absolutely. I want to know, how does one get acquired by Google? Like, do they just like randomly send you an email one day and be like, hey, we want to buy your company? Or were you, you know, out there like actively looking for buyers? And how did you know you were ready to sell?
• 6:26
  Yeah, that's a great question. So absolutely, we were not looking for buyers. I think we were still very early in our journey. We had raised funding, which we hadn't even touched at the moment. Things were going so great. And I guess that's kind of sort of when things happen. We had built a lot of a ton of value for creators. We were the first marketplace allowing YouTubers to connect with brands on their terms, sort of kind of like what we do with podcasting here.
• 6:54
  And we, you know, we helped keep the lights on for a lot of creators and brought a lot of value. So one day, exactly kind of how you mentioned, we got an email from the Google mergers and acquisitions team saying, how would you feel about getting acquired? And are you interested in having a conversation? So I think, you know, when it was it was sort of.
• 7:16
  There was a lot of synergy. It was a perfect home for Famebit because we had literally built the company for YouTubers. And we had so much alignment in our visions and freedom of expression, freedom to create...
• 7:31
  No contracts, no obligations. We were so aligned in our values, both of our companies, that it was just a perfect match from the very beginning. But it wasn't an easy process. Just because Google came knocking, it didn't happen overnight. I think the due diligence process of the acquisition took like 6 to 8 months.
• 7:52
  And, you know, I think like for a founder, I think that's the scariest moment because this is like this super exciting thing that is happening to your company. You also can't share with everyone on your team, even though you're close knit and it's very hard and you have to keep the company obviously like going to the right and where you're also distracted with all this due diligence stuff. So it's...
• 8:15
  Yeah, I kind of at that time, I thought to myself, like, these are all my dreams coming to probably, you know, never build another company again, or put myself through sort of like the torture that you go through building a startup, but there's something addictive about it. So here I am again. Yeah, that time around, that time's another charm. Are you able to share anything about the numbers of, you know, what kind of amount you were able to sell the business for to Google? Yeah.
• 8:43
  Yeah. So unfortunately I can't share publicly the amount. But yeah, it was, it was a really great outcome for, for the company. Amazing. And when you started FameBit, did you have the vision to exit or were you just kind of going along with the flow, like building a business and seeing how things go? And did you dream it would become so big? Yeah. I mean, no, I think,
• 9:12
  You know, you're just when you start a company, you're sort of startups. The things in startups happen so quickly, you can't even foresee or imagine half the things that go on, even on a day to day basis.
• 9:25
  I think we just wanted to create a lot of value, have people using our products. I remember one time I was in a coffee shop and I saw somebody have fainted up on their screen and I almost fainted. I mean, just that moment of users using your product and having product market fit, I think that was the passion. And that's what kept us going and, you know, getting lots of love letters from creators saying how
• 9:53
  they were able to move into doing YouTube full time and, you know, they could quit the job that they hated and now focus on their passions. I think those are the things that kept us going. Also, so many small businesses that, you know, now I look back became big, but we were one of, you know, we were their first, the first product they were using to acquire users. So I think,
• 10:17
  Those things were the things that got us acquired and what we were focusing on. But I had never imagined that it would be that big or that fame, it would become synonymous with influencer marketing and what the space has become today. It was really just a passion project for both my co-founder and I. And we saw a big problem. So I think, you know, when I talk to founders, I think that's the biggest thing is solving a problem that you're really passionate about.
• 10:47
  gets you going and gets you a good outcome ultimately keeps you going back every day for more exactly
• 10:56
  Wow, what an incredible journey. That sounds so exciting and just such a big achievement to have in your life in anyone's lifetime. So let's fast forward. You've then had a bit of a time, bit of a time off, and then you've come back to launch Podcorn. Do you want to talk about the beginning when you were like, okay, let's do this all again, the light bulb moment, that kind of thing?
• 11:19
  Yeah, absolutely. I think with Podcorn, we saw a lot of similar trends unfolding that we saw in the early days of the video. Influencers, we saw that there was this incredible thriving creator community, but 85% of them were not monetizing. The opportunities that were available were for traditional ad formats, which were very CPM driven and very... How much downloads do you have? It wasn't necessarily...
• 11:45
  about your expertise or your niche insights or how engaged your listeners were with what you're creating. So we saw an opportunity to sort of do something very similar that we did for FameBit, but for podcasting, which is a totally different beast in and of itself. But that's sort of what led us to do it. And just having the experience and building something similar was...
• 12:13
  it gave us the foundation to basically want to do it again because we saw a much bigger problem. It's a lot more fragmented, both on the brand side and the podcaster side. There is no centralized hub, sort of like a YouTube where brands can go and even find podcasters to reach out to. It's a very manual process or brands have to work with a lot of different agencies or a lot of different networks just to work with.
• 12:38
  you know, 20 parenting podcasts if that's what they're after. So we saw an opportunity to really...
• 12:46
  defragmented and centralized monetization, allow direct access for brands to podcasters and podcasters to negotiate for themselves for the first time where they could set their own rates. They can choose the brands they want to work with and collaborate sort of in a way that makes sense for their listenership, for their voice and also for the brand so they can do something directly together. So cool. So exciting.
• 13:14
  And when you sort of decided to go into this new platform, new marketplace, what did you need to get started? Because obviously you need to build a tech platform. I assume it's capital intensive in the beginning. And yeah, yeah. What did you do to get started? Yeah. Yeah.
• 13:32
  That's also a great question. It's really kind of with marketplace, since it's a chicken or egg problem, who do you go after? You know, do you go after, in this case, the brands who are spending the dollars or do you go after the creator? So in our experience, because we had built fame that we knew that we needed a healthy ecosystem of inventory for brands to be able to purchase, which was the creators. And, you know, we had...
• 13:57
  talked to so many podcasters and even YouTubers who were getting into podcasting before we started the company and also to so many brands that were clients previously through Famebit, where we wanted to build a product for them and wanted to make sure that this is something that they would use.
• 14:16
  As an advice to getting started, I always tell other founders to really talk to users as early as you can and really be in the weeds with them because that's who you're building a product for. Sometimes you get so caught up in your idea and you think it's the best because your mom thinks it's the best or your friends are super supportive, but you're not really talking to the people that will be using it. So talking to users was very big for us in the beginning.
• 14:44
  How many users did you talk to before you kind of were like, yep, we validated the idea we can move forward? Um, it's a good question. Probably, uh, a handful of brands and probably, you know, we started like 50 creators or something like that. Um, so,
• 15:04
  Yeah, it's not necessarily, I think, even from a user perspective, you don't need a ton of users to start with. But even if you have super passionate users that, you know, they become very influential for your business because of word of mouth and they tell other users to use you. So I think that's also worked in our favor, both the customer and on both creator and brand side.
• 15:29
  Yeah, for sure. I'd love to talk about your go-to-market strategy in the beginning when you had the handful of early adopters on the platform, you had a handful of brands, but how did you further market the brand and what platforms were you using to market? Yeah, so on the podcaster side, we definitely strive to market.
• 15:49
  sit and be known and sort of advertise to where the podcasters are. So whether it's, you know, blogs for podcasters, sending out newsletters to our community, being very active with our community and seeing what they need, how we can be helpful and kind of doing things that don't scale very early on, doing a lot of handholding with friends as well, you know, to make sure that everyone has a really good experience and being helpful on both sides.
• 16:15
  Also, influencer marketing. I think eating our own dog food has been a big part of the strategy. Influencers are the thing that made me get into this sort of business, but it's also what continues to drive my business. And so yeah, influencers really early on, finding people within your space who...
• 16:37
  have the audience that listens to them for advice on specific things, whether it's like how to make a podcast or how to monetize. So we've been partnering with a lot of podcasters as well. And on the brand side, also partnerships being strategic. So we have a lot of things that we're going to be unveiling on the partnership side that I can't quite yet talk about, but strategic partnerships are very instrumental.
• 17:01
  Cool. We will definitely be staying tuned for that. What are the kind of collaborations that you see mostly through the platform now? What's kind of like the trending collaboration? Between podcasters and brands? Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of interviews where brands actually get to...
• 17:23
  talk about their founding story, you know, their inspiration, talk about how, what inspired their product, how it's made. And the podcaster gets to ask the questions that he or she believes, you know, that the listeners will really benefit and kind of dive deeper. So it's more journalistic, more inquisitive, more about storytelling, less about product pushing. I think that's what we're seeing brands convert with a lot and also just having the right fit. So for instance,
• 17:52
  One of our brands that has been really successful, Lumen, they make a device to help with your metabolism. They partnered with experts within our field, so like biohacking and fitness.
• 18:05
  podcasters that really can educate about the product because it's a little bit more complicated and they've seen a 300% return. So I think the deeper you dive on the content and the more authentic content you create that matches with what the podcaster is already doing and it's more fit of an audience, it tends to convert really well. Yeah, for sure. I bet. Absolutely.
• 18:34
  I want to know, as a third time founder, you know, obviously, probably for FameBit, you were really in that hustle. You were growing this startup like crazy. You'd been through an accelerator. What's your kind of mental headspace like now? Like, is it still that same hustle as the early days of something like FameBit? Or are you a bit more relaxed? Is it a bit more chill? What's it kind of like three times around? Yeah, I don't think it's more chill at all. I think,
• 19:02
  you think it's going to be easier when you're,
• 19:07
  you know, kind of out of it for the moment. And you're like, oh, this is the second or the third time around. It's going to be much simpler. But no, it's just as hard. Every company you're doing has its own set of challenges. I think, you know, you have more experience to rely on. So you have more. I mean, I certainly have more of a playbook where I know when I need to raise money or, you know, what things I need to do to sort of to go to market or the stages that I need to get through.
• 19:35
  or how to build a team. You just learn certain things from experience, but it never gets easier. Certain things, just the things that get thrown at you are very different for every company you do. Yeah, it's a grind. It's for sure a grind. I bet. And I wonder, like...
• 19:54
  As well, when you're in that kind of process where you've already been through some significant challenges through your other businesses, you're able to then navigate those challenges to either avoid them or, you know, you've got the toolkit to be able to like manage it efficiently the time around. Yeah. Do you have any examples of that kind of thing, like where you had a challenge in the past of FameBit and you've been able to navigate that and take those lessons into PodCon? Yeah.
• 20:25
  Um, absolutely. So sort of like the thing I talked about, sort of like the chicken and egg problem, like where do you invest your time or where do you advertise? Like thinking about partnerships early on, uh, how you build your team, like your first key hires. I think those are the things that we took most from, um,
• 20:47
  from the first company and also just like how to scale and how to grow. And those are different aspects than sort of when you're, you know, a three person company, I'd say. Yeah.
• 20:58
  Yeah, absolutely. And how big is Podcorn now? What's the team look like? Yeah, so we're still fairly small. We're just 10 people. We're sort of keeping it to the core. So like engineers, sales, community, account managers, and myself and my co-founder. Amazing. So exciting. What advice do you have for women who have a big idea?
• 21:28
  I think first and foremost, I think don't be scared to venture out of whatever your background is. You know, for instance, like my background was in law. I never imagined that I would be in influencer marketing or marketing at all.
• 21:45
  I think if you have a good idea, it doesn't matter if it's outside of the scope of what you're doing. You can always find people who are either smarter than you or who are experts within that. Or again, talk to users early so you can get traction as quickly as you can. Also talk to investors early, I think is really good because a lot of times they'll give you ideas of...
• 22:10
  what you might not be thinking about. I think like the best investors that I've seen and had over the years have been ones that not necessarily just are there to poke holes in your idea, but they start to brainstorm with you to help to see like, how can your idea succeed? And they get you into that, that mind frame. Yeah. Wow. That's a really great tip. I love that. We are up to the six quick questions.
• 22:38
  Question number one is what's your why? I think it's just an intrinsic desire to problem solve, to create, to add value. Sort of like I mentioned at the beginning when people,
• 22:55
  the Google acquisition was happening, I thought, you know, I sort of made it now like this is all my dreams come true. Like I couldn't have ever imagined for anything better happening. I don't think I'll ever build another company again, but no, I think it's very addictive and I think I'm just being curious and wanting to problem solve. And from a, I think from a business perspective for this company, it's really sort of like,
• 23:21
  the monetization, helping keep the lights on for creators. But from a personal level, it's really problem solving and doing work that doesn't feel like work. It's really more about passion. Love that. Question number two is what's been the number one marketing moment that's made your business pop? Yeah, I think it's, again, like influencers and creators have been the biggest challenges
• 23:49
  God's son, just finding people who
• 23:52
  have a following that you can already tap into, um, has been very helpful to my business and has, and it continues to be helpful to the businesses that use podcorn. So I think, uh, as another sort of piece of advice, even to founders who are building something like find people who are, can be, can evangelize it really early on because they will help you get users. And it's, you know, a much more affordable way through, um, influential personalities, whether it is, you
• 24:27
  a potential target market. And you can also use influencers to test product ideas to, you know, they're the first users sometimes who tell you what's wrong with your product, so you can make it better. So there's a multitude of ways that we've been able to use creators and influencers across different mediums throughout all of our companies. So that's, I think, is the biggest.
• 24:51
  Need to get on those influencer campaigns. Exactly. Question number three is where do you hang out to get smarter in terms of the internet, books, podcasts, all that kind of thing? Yeah, I read a lot. I think whether it's things to just keep up with in the minute or sort of.
• 25:13
  things that are timeless. And again, like podcasts and YouTube, I think depending on what it is that I'm trying to learn, whether it's self-help, I find like I'm, I'm turning to podcasts a lot, YouTube tutorials for anything from like cooking to how to DIY something. Also, I think like great mentors throughout the years, I always seek out people that I can learn from, I can
• 25:37
  school that was professors, you know, that I'm still friends with till this day that I can turn to for advice or people within tech, whether it's investors or other founders.
• 25:50
  So, yeah, I think seeking out mentorship has been a great way for me to continue learning and just having conversations because I find the times I'm learning the most is through conversations when people tell me about something and then I want to learn more. So oftentimes I'm like, well, what are you reading or like, where can I find other sources to help me with that? So it tends to open up a whole world of things that I haven't been thinking about.
• 26:14
  Peaks your curiosity. Question number four is how do you win the day? And that's around your AM and PM rituals that keep you feeling happy and motivated and successful. Lots of coffee.
• 26:30
  But I think over the years, I've learned to leave a lot of flexibility within my calendar. So I think, you know, being mindfully conscious of how I'm organizing meetings, whether, you know, certain things need to be meetings or whether they can be an email or something.
• 26:48
  a phone call or an in-person chat and just leaving time to think, leaving time to be creative. I journal a lot, which is something I never used to do, but I think that's completely changed my mindset. Also making lots of to-do lists, but also making win lists.
• 27:03
  And at the end of the day, I'm kind of going through like, what have I accomplished? Or what am I proud of that I've actually done today? Because I find sometimes, you know, there's so many things you put on your to do list and you get through three or four of the big things, but then you don't give yourself credit for them because you kind of look at all the other items that are outstanding. So looking at my accomplishments and really writing them down, I think has been big and
• 27:28
  Yeah. Notetaking, I think, in general, has been instrumental for my memory and just keeping things top of mind.
• 27:40
  Yeah, absolutely. I really love to write notes as well, like putting pen on paper. There's something about it that is, it like cements it in your mind more than writing a note on a computer. And I also think celebrating the wins is so crucial because especially if you're in a fast paced business and things just move so quickly that if you don't stop, you just breeze over it. And then you're like, oh, you know, didn't happen pretty much. Yeah, absolutely. And I think just making time for
• 28:09
  for learning, you know, even outside of your space, whether it's reading a book, like, I know everyone's so busy. And I feel like I used to feel this pressure to read a book from start to
• 28:22
  this space where with a lot of nonfiction books, I'll read a chapter that interests me or two or three, and then I'll move on to another book that I want to seek out information from. So I think a lot of people feel the pressure to read something from start to finish, but even grabbing little bits and pieces of information can just make you feel like you're constantly learning and expanding.
• 28:44
  I really love that, especially because I always feel so guilty if I don't finish a book and I can really like if I've left it for too long, then I've forgotten. And then I'm like, oh, and I'm always thinking, oh, I'm going to have to go back and read it again. I love that approach. That's a really cool mindset shift. Absolutely. Question number five is if you only had a thousand dollars left in your business bank account, how would you spend it?
• 29:08
  Oh, I think on acquiring users, I'd probably spend it on creators, honestly. It just goes back to that because, again, you could reach and influence so many more people through even just one person that I would spend my last money on telling people about my product to try to acquire users.
• 29:31
  Amazing. And question six is how do you deal with failure? And that can be around a personal experience or just your general mindset and approach. Yeah, that's hard. I, you know, I think the best piece of advice I've ever gotten from actually an investor was that your worst moments in life, like whatever you feel is wrong.
• 29:59
  you know, you didn't get that deal with that company or you didn't get an investment. Sometimes your worst moments turn out to be your biggest blessings.
• 30:08
  And, you know, whether it's not getting an acquisition that you wanted early when the conversation started too early, but then getting a bigger acquisition, I just, you can't first see the things that will happen. And I sort of come to look at it that way and embrace failure in a much more acceptable way. I'm also pretty good, I think, at closing chapters when they're, when things are done and sort of...
• 30:35
  building from nothing. Again, that's really exciting for me. I think that's that part of me that loves to create and innovate. So when something is failed and closed, it's an opportunity to build something new. I sort of look at it that way as well. But yeah, I think you just need to look at everything as...
• 30:54
  everything happens for a reason. And, and, you know, when, when one door closes, another one opens and that's definitely been true for me and for a lot of other founders that I've talked to. Love that. So cool. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today and share your multiple stories, your multiple journeys for anyone listening, who is either a creator or a brand who should be signing up to Podcorn? Who is your ideal customer?
• 31:25
  Yeah, it's on the podcaster side. It's any podcaster. It doesn't matter how big or small you are. We really strive to match you to brands of all budgets and sizes. And so it doesn't matter what vertical you're in or what your expertise is in. As long as you're really passionate about a topic or, you know, you're an expert in a certain field, like,
• 31:50
  please sign up. You have nothing to lose. You can browse opportunities. You're completely in control of the creative process. Once you find a brand that you want to work with and...
• 32:02
  Again, because you interact with brands directly, there's so much transparency and you're in control from start to finish. So for creators, there's nothing to lose. You can sort of browse. And then on the brand side, same. You get an access to so many creators. It solves the problem of discovery. You can communicate directly and really drive users. I mean, brands are really converting from podcasts. So it really works.
• 32:31
  Absolutely. Cool. Thank you so much. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
• 32:41
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 33:06
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 33:28
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.
• 33:45
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 34:09
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 34:32
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.