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When Christian Leaders Fall: Navigating Faith After Moral Failures · More Than Medicine

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: So listen up, because the doctor is in.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Welcome to More Than Medicine.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: All right, well, ms Hannah, I'm delighted to have you on with me on my podcast, and so we have a very interesting discussion for today, and it's been stirred up by some recent events, so I'm going to let you take it away and introduce our conversation.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: So, as most of our listeners probably already know, just here in the last couple of weeks we've had the passing of a giant of the faith, which has been James Dobson.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Dr Dobson and his passing away, of course you know there was some people who disagreed with some things that he taught, but there was no great scandal, not that I've I've heard about anyway.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Uh, so he's passed away, but it did bring the conversation and and many other kind of quote, unquote, fallen Christian leaders in quote and they're passing away, and that kind of thing.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: It stirred that pot and there was a lot of those stories and occurrences that kind of were brought up and it just made me realize that we've not had this conversation and that maybe it was time for us to have this conversation and maybe time when it wasn't such a hot topic necessarily, but one where we've had time to think there's good resources out there for us to kind of pull from.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: And so I thought we should kind of respond to how we should respond and how we should think about when a Christian leader, when it's revealed that a Christian leader has feet of clay, when they fall from grace, and how do we and you know there's been multiple instances over, I mean, just the last couple of years.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: I think we had one that happened this year with Josh Buse, and then there was Robbie Zacharias from a couple years ago and there's just been over.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: You know, throughout human history there's been Christian leaders who have, you know, it's revealed that they had some.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: They had feet of clay.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: They were fallen human beings.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: They had struggles with sin of one variety or another.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: So I thought you know what I'm going to strong arm my dad into having this conversation with me and talking about how we should how we should respond.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: And we're going to approach this differently because there is a little bit of and we'll do this right off the bat responding individually versus responding as a church or organization.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: So is that how you want to lead this off?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: That's a good distinction.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Now, let's first start off by saying that neither one of us thinks that james dobson yeah, I know any kind of personal moral failing yeah there were people who were critical of him and critical of his teaching and his ministry and his involvement in politics, but neither one of us have any sentiment along those lines, I think.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: I think he was a strong guy.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: But because of the people who harshly criticized him, it brought up other Christian people who did in fact have feet of clay and did in fact fall from grace, and so that's what spurred this whole conversation.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: So first thing I would like to say is that we all need to be reminded that none of us are perfect.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: We all have feet of clay and, to one extent or another, all of us share in the fallen nature of man.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: All of us have a sin nature and, although some men in lofty positions quote fall from grace because of one thing or another, and, to be honest, at that level, the thing that causes trouble the most is usually a sexual sin or financial impropriety.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Those are the two things that cause the most brouhaha and ends up getting men released from their positions of responsibility and leadership and causes them humiliation and disgrace.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: But, to be truthful, all of us have sins in our own lives that causes conflict between family members, between friends, between folks at church.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So just be honest, all of us have those little sandpaper issues in our lives that causes us to rub up against other people in a way that aggravates and irritates and isolates, and you know what I'm talking about.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: So the second thing I want us to say is this Some years ago, there was a pastor in a church that I attended who, quote fell into a personal sin, and it was of a sexual type nature, a sexual sin, and he ended up being dismissed immediately from his responsibilities.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: In that church, there's a verse of Scripture that I want to read to you, that I think all of us need to keep in mind.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Whenever somebody that you know and love and care for falls into sin and it's Galatians 6.1, and it says this is talking to Christian people.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, talking about spirit filled, spirit led Christian people, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness no harshness, no critical spirit, no hard heart.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself lest you too be tempted.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: See, there's that reality that all of us can be tempted and that sin can come to my door as well as yours.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Now I will say it.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: I think that a lot, that that verse does a great job pointing out one of the primary issues that I have with folks when they respond to these things on the Internet, because a lot of times we're not coming at this from a position of brokenness that a fellow believer has fallen has fallen.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: We come at it because we come at it out of jealousy, because there's somebody who has a.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: You know, they've got a bigger platform, maybe than we do.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: Or we come at them with a hard heart because we don't like something that they've taught or said in the past, or we're hypercritical and that's why we come at it, or maybe we're just a flat out gossip and we just love that juicy little tidbit.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: And so anytime these things happen, and I see such a, as you said, brouhaha happening amongst fellow believers, it just really makes me want to say like we need to pump the brakes here.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: What's the motivation of your heart for talking about this, for perpetuating all of this?
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: For you know, I mean, if it's genuinely to help a brother come to you know a place of repentance, or maybe just to speak the truth about what has happened, that's entirely different from somebody who, if you're coming at it because of a hypercritical spirit or jealousy, or just being hard hearted about something that they taught, that you disagreed with, so it's about a spirit of gentleness.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, and I don't see that a lot.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: So many people have that spirit of pride and critical spirit.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: That's the very opposite of what this passage of scripture is encouraging.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Now let me finish my story though.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: So when this happened in our church, I was speaking to another leader in the church and we discussed amongst ourselves what had happened.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: And as soon as we discussed it discussed amongst ourselves what had happened, and as soon as we discussed it this church leader looked at me and said Robert, this scares me to death.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: And I looked at him and I said how so, brother?
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: And he says because it could have easily have been me.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: And as soon as he said that, I said yeah, I know what you mean.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: And you see, both of us trembled.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Trembled because we realized that we had feet of clay, we realized that we could have easily fallen into that kind of sin ourselves.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: And so there was not a spirit of pride or a critical spirit amongst the two of us, it was just fear and trembling, you see.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: And in fact we were involved in restoring this brother with the spirit of gentleness, and over time we helped him to move to another city.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: He spent a couple of years in confession and repentance and counseling.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: He had a secular job for several years and then, by God's grace, he was restored to the ministry and over the next 30 years that pastor held four additional pastorates and he had a very fruitful ministry.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: And because we maintained our connection with him, maintained the desire to restore him, he invited me to sing and preach in three of the churches that he ministered in and he's still a very good friend of me and Miss Carlotta, my wife, and he's still a very good friend of me and Miss Carlotta, my wife, and I've just been so delighted to see how God worked in his life to restore him to the ministry, to restore connections between him and his wife and his children.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: It's just been an amazing story of restoration and you see, that doesn't always happen.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Many times people become proud, arrogant, unrepentant, and they're never restored to the Lord or their Christian family.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: And but this was one of those most beautiful stories of restoration.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: And so there it shows that there is a difference.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: You know when you have and I think all of us are you know, we're aware, as as believers, that there's a big difference between a man who's repentant turns away and spends a season in brokenness, working through his sin, working out his faith with fear and trembling and his salvation and then is restored to his local church and then is restored to his local church, versus a man who, you know, his bows up and he's prideful and he's arrogant and he maybe puts out an apology letter, but it sounds more like I'm sorry, I got caught, kind of letter and what about unrepentant pastors or church leaders or whomever.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Let me speak to that.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I think that unrepentant church leaders injure the church.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: They wound the little lambs that have looked up to them.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: They bring reproach on the name of Christ and provide fodder for the critics of the church who are always saying that all Christians are hypocrites and not all Christians are hypocrites, but that particular unrepentant church leader certainly is, and that unrepentant church leader should be subject to church discipline if he's willing to participate, but if he's not, then he should be disfellowshipped, which means he's not allowed to participate in communion or the community of that local fellowship and what.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: You go back to the question you asked in the beginning how do we handle church leaders who fall from grace?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Well, there's a difference between how the church handles it or the organization handles it, and how we handle it as individuals.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: If that church leader is unrepentant, then I think the church needs to discard all of their literature, all of their sermons, all their blogs, all their books, everything that that church or organization has that belongs to them.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: It needs to all go.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: It needs to be out of their possession because it doesn't need to come back on them from the public right right as an as a source of embarrassment or shame or discredit to the organization or the church and and, as you said, the little lambs that are within that church too confusing to them uses to them, confusing to them, and it also prohibits them from being able to move forward and and grow as a church.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: um, and, and I agree, I think it is something that when you look at it from the outside, looking in it, besmirches that local church, that particular church and or organization.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Now the other question that people their falling from grace.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Does it invalidate all of their former teaching?
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: So are you saying there's a difference between keeping it and discarding it versus invalidating it, or are you just saying there's a difference between anything that they produce after they, after they've been exposed?
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: well, if that pastor is unrepentant right and they continue to preach, teach, write, then I would ignore all of that an unrepentant church leader who continues to produce everything after that point, you would say disregard, you know you got to throw it all out, disregard it, that's exactly right.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: But but things that he produced or immaterial that he had from before the fall from gaze, even if there was an ongoing sin that hadn't been exposed yet we don't know about what.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: Is that what you're talking about?
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: now, yeah, because here's the thing Truth is truth, brilliance is brilliance, and just because somebody falls into sin does not invalidate or vitiate the brilliance of that theologian or that pastor or that church leader.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: It doesn't invalidate the truthfulness of their Bible teaching before they quote fell into grace.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: And you know there are lots of church leaders in past history that spoke truth, wrote truth, wrote blogs, wrote books or whatever, but then ultimately, sometime later in their life had something happen that was shameful or embarrassing or sinful.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: But it does not invalidate the truthfulness of the things that they wrote or taught or preached beforehand.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Truth is truth.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Now I understand that some people emotionally will not be able to get past that church leader or pastor's or Bible teacher's sin and they'll never utilize anything that that pastor wrote or preached or taught or that church leader wrote or preached or taught.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: That's that individual's choice.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: But if a person is emotionally capable to separate their truthful, valid teaching from their later immorality, then I have no problem with them using that, yeah, I'm not going to look at you.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: And if I walk into your home and I see something from somebody that I'm like, oh wow, that pastor really fell from grace and you've got two of his books on your shelf, I'm not going to look at you and say, oh my goodness, I can't believe you have those.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Let's just use a very remote person Martin Luther.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: All right, he was one of the founders of the modern well, the Reformation Right, but Martin Luther was a potent anti-Semite.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Now are we going to invalidate everything that he wrote and taught because he was screwy in his theology towards the Jews?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: No, of course not.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I've got books by Martin Luther.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Lots of people venerate Martin Luther and they quote him.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: I'm actually wearing a Martin.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Luther shirt right now, so you see his, his, I mean.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And there are people who would claim that that was sinful thinking and corrupt theology, and and that people today who are anti-Semitic should be excused from the church.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Well, there's a rising number of folks who themselves think that if you are pro-Jew, that you're not a strong believer, you're not a good believer.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: So it's almost like for that particular issue now it goes back and forth and you're now having some sort of hierarchy of sin.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: That's happening and the problem with this and I recognize that there's a big difference between a granny telling a white lie to not hurt somebody's feelings at church versus a man who sexually preys on young girls- and children there's a big difference between that.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: But I think when we approach these we're way too quick to think that my little sins are not as big of a deal in the eyes of a holy God as that sin is.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: That's right, exactly right.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: That's that guy's issue, that's right.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: And when you bring up Martin Luther, you know even now there's people who would venerate him because of his stance against the Jews, and it's like where you know, guys, where are?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: you going to draw the line?
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: And where are you going to say?
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: You know, and this is where it all, to me, really comes down to is that we have to approach every book that we read, every sermon that we take in with a spirit of discernment.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Spirit of discernment you have to have because, look, I read a book this last week that and I'll probably talk about it on my podcast at some point, but it was written by it was from a secular perspective on an issue and there was some grains of truth in it and I was like, all right, I'm going to take that, I'm going to throw that away.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take that, I'm going to throw that away.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take that, I'm going to throw that away.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: You know, and we have to approach everything and we can't get lazy, and I think we also.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: We want to get lazy.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: We want to be able to just wholesale endorse things.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: We also are afraid that if we do suggest something to somebody and later it comes out that that person had a major sin issue, that somebody's gonna, that's gonna, besmirch us, and so we're really quick, we want to be really loud in our you know, in our pushing that person away.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: That you know, for example, ravi Zacharias, versus just assuming that you know what people will understand, they're going to have if I recommended a book to them 10 years ago by Ravi Zacharias and it now comes out that he's been sexually preying on women.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to, I think we just need to be.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: We just have to have grace for one another.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: And we need to have in those kinds of back and forth.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Like I said earlier, if I walked into your house and you had two of his books on your shelf, I'm not going to be like, oh, we got to just burn down your whole library, two of his books on your shelf, I'm not going to be like, oh, we got to just burn down your whole library.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm not.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say, I'm going to just have grace for you that you have discernment.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: And then I actually saw a reel on the internet this week and this guy was getting lamb blasted for having what?
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, an Anne Rand book on a shelf.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Somebody saw an and he was well, if you notice, right next to it I had the Communist Manifesto, and then next to that was the Constitution of the United States and then next to that was my Kip it was, you know, the Third Reich, and he had all of these books.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: And he's like, can we, do we not understand that we all have the ability to consume things and not become that thing?
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's right.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: We can read things to educate ourselves or to hear somebody's argument, and then we can not just worship that thing, whatever it may be.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: And and I think that his point is pertinent to this conversation too- yes, that's right.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: Because obviously you know he's wanting to understand how these guys think so he can counteract some of it too.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: And so, anyway, I think that was a very interesting perspective that he had on that.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: And so we're saying you know, if an individual responds differently than a church does, that definitely probably should happen.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: There does need to be a different response from a church or an organization versus an individual response.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: And then you know, but how do we—here's my last question how do we protect ourselves from a similar fate?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: You know, we really what a good question yeah.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Because I want to.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: I want to really.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: You know again, I don't fault somebody.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: A lot of people I see who jump on bandwagons to criticize a lot of these guys.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Like I said earlier a lot of times, it's not coming from a place of brokenness, it's coming from a place of pride and arrogance.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: A lot of times.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: it's not coming from a place of brokenness, it's coming from a place of pride and arrogance?
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I think we should, you know, check yourself before you wreck yourself kind of thing and a lot of times it's the same people in my life.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: It's the same people in my life.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: They are so quick to criticize any of these guys and want to destroy their character and tear them down and toss out all of their material.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: And it's a lot of the same folks.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: And that tells me that they have a critical spirit.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: They don't have a lot of grace in them.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Well, let me answer that question.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: First thing.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 13, examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Test yourselves, you see.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Whenever something like this happens, we should all turn the searchlight inward and we should examine our own hearts.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: In fact, we should always be examining our own heart every day.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: That's a spiritual discipline that all of us should exercise to always be examining our heart.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: In fact, the psalmist said search me, o God, and know my heart.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Try me and know my anxious thoughts.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a discipline that every day, I ask the Spirit of God to take the searchlight of God's Word and shine it brightly into my heart, to search every nook and cranny of my soul to see what's there and to expose the skeletons in my closet.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Not the next person, it's me, it's me, oh Lord, that's standing in the need of prayer, not the next guy, but I need the Spirit of God to examine my heart and to see what's there and expose the feet of clay that I have.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: And the next thing is this accountability.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Feet of clay that I have, and the next thing is this accountability.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: We all need accountability and we all need someone in our life who asks us hard questions about my, my quiet time, my time with the Lord, my thought life, the things that I watch on television or the internet, the people that I'm acquainted with, how I spend my money, you know all those kind of questions that if I'm allowed to just be prone to wander without anybody looking over my shoulder, then old Robert Jackson can end up in a ditch, a moral ditch, and all the rest of us can too.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So don't be fooled.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: You have feet of clay, I have feet of clay, and without accountability, now what is accountability?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Accountability is you and me helping each other to keep our promises to God, to our family and to ourselves.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: That's all that accountability is, and all of us need someone that helps us keep our promises.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: And without accountability, we're all likely to fall into that moral ditch where we end up muddy, embarrassed and ashamed, and I don't want to go there, and I know you don't want to go there.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So, number one, examine yourself in the light of God's Word and by grace of Holy Spirit.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Number two, find somebody in your life who's not afraid to ask you hard questions about your spiritual life and your spiritual journey.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: All right, that's all the time we have for today.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: You're listening to More Than Medicine.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: My guest today is my lovely daughter, ms Hannah Miller, and I hope you'll be back again with us next week.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Until then, remember your doctor loves you.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Until then, may the Lord bless you real good.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Also, don't forget to check out Dr Jackson's books that are available on Amazon His third book Turkey Tales and Bible Truths, and his father's biography on laughter-silvered wounds the story of a country doctor, a family man, a patriot and a political activist.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Productions.