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Should you have a Self Managed Super Fund? · The Money Puzzle

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle Podcast. I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: James Kirby, the Wealth Editor at The Australian. Welcome aboard, everybody. Now,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: do you think that you should have a self-managed super fund?
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe you have a self-managed super fund. Do you think
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: it's worth the effort? Or alternatively, if you had one,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: would you be better off? Would you be a more
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: successful investor? I've had a self-managed super fund for about
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: 20 years, but I don't know as much as my
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: guest today. It's Julie Dolan. She's head of SMSF, Self-Managed
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Superfunds and Estate Planning at KPMG. Hi, Julia. How are you?
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Thanks, James. How are you?
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Good. Thank you. Nice to have you on. It's great
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to have someone actually with a helicopter view of this area.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: there's sort of two lines to it. I mean, as
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: a journalist, I watch it in two ways. I watch
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: it like as a sector, is it getting bigger? Is
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: it getting smaller? What are the trends, et cetera? And
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: then I watch it as an investor. Does it still
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: make sense for me individually to have one? And is
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: it going well enough? And have I got it structured
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: in the correct fashion? But one of the things I suppose,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: just first of all, usefully and this is pure coincidence
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: don't you know it wasn't my smart planning or anything
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: but the new ato numbers are out about participation if
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: you like on self-managed super funds it's you immediately challenged
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: me on this i'm sure but it seems to me
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: that the number of super funds in australia is stuck
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: hard in or around 500 600 000 for as long
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: as i can remember uh but I believe it's growing,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: but it seems to be only growing a little bit.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: What's the actual numbers?
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Actually, yes, James, you must have had a magical wand
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: on the figures because they actually came out yesterday from
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the ATO.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes. I saw that this morning. It's perfect timing.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I planned it all. You planned it all.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: So once again, yes, the growth is consistent.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Like it's once again, there was another 7,300 set-ups during
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: the quarter and there's only a small number of wind-ups.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: But you have to, I suppose, when I look at it,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I look at the legislative landscape and even setting up
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: new funds these days, it's the ATO even most times,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: most times they're not, will give a potential trustee a
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: call and go through to make sure that they are
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: a fit, that they're doing it for the proper reasons.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: So.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I don't mind the steady growth because then with all
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: the changes that are happening at the moment and the
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: ATO being the regulators, there's a stronger chance that the
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: ones are getting set up. They're getting set up for
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: the right purpose. And so it's maintaining even more so
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: the credibility of the industry that it deserves. So the
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: latest numbers, I've actually got them written here. We're 616,000.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: 400 funds, and that is made up of $ 896 billion.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: So we're literally.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: Just behind the APRA, my gov, my super sector. Yeah.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: as the second largest. So we're definitely a big player.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: It's always large because basically the people who have SMSFs
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: have more money. Of course they do. And just a
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: few other things. Separately, Investment Trends and Vanguard released their report.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Also released their report today. This is the one that
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: triggered my idea to talk to you today. So very briefly, folks,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: if you're listening about the benefits Big picture. The overall
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: number of SMSFs continues to rise. There's about 615,000 SMSFs
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: across Australia. And the average balance is, and this is
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: really interesting, right? It's $ 330, 000. This is what they say
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: of people establishing new funds, that is. The average balance
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: is 300. Yeah. And the average age is 47. This
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: is an issue we talk about all the time on
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: the show, Julie. How much should you have to have
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: an SMSF? I mean, you might say, how long is
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: a piece of string?
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I've had people on the show seriously saying you need
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: a million dollars. More typically, maybe six, seven hundred. I'm
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: trying to remember what the figure is from the professional associations,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: but obviously those figures are very low because they want
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: as many people to join as possible. But I think,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: you know, money talks. So here's the number, folks, for
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: the average person age 47 who's starting an SMSF. At
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the moment, it's $ 330, 000. Julie, is that enough money to
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: start a fund, do you think?
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I've got clients, it absolutely depends. I've got clients
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: who are starting it in their 20s because they want to,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: it's not necessarily to me about the money. Obviously, you
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: do need to do your cost benefit analysis, but at
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's the type of person
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: that you are as well. So, if you really do
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: want to have control and transparency and you really do
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: want to have the ability to invest accordingly and grow
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: your superannuation.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: Early the better.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: The sooner the better, I suppose so. Yeah, but the
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: sooner the better, you're not going to have 300. Most
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: people aren't going to have 330,000, are they?
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: No, it's more the fact of obviously the age.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: It's their ability of how much money they have outside
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: and also we're in a different world too in the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: sense that the younger the someone is, it's the more
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: the superannuation of their job their super guarantee that's going in,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: so that consistent ability, and also insurances. So if insurances
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: are going to go into the fund, that can potentially
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: make it a small fund to potentially a very large
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: fund should a triggering event occur, and also whatever assets
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: are set outside. So I don't have a hard and
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: fast rule. Obviously, you don't start one with a very,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: very small amount.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Is there a rock-bottom minimum that you would say?
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I would probably say the 200, 250.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I'm sort of comfortable with that based on doing analysis
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: that sits outside.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's very interesting. Now, folks, I find with self-managed
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: super funds, I was probably younger than most people when
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: I did it, but that was because I was writing
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: about it and I thought you should sort of walk
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the talk. But I find this, in terms of self-managed
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: super funds, in terms of people thinking about it, the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: average age is 47, which is useful to a point.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: That's the commencement age. The average age, of course, is older,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: will skew older because, by definition... If people start on
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: average at 47, then if you think about it, it's
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: older people who have them and older people are wealthier
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: because they've saved for longer. That all makes sense. But, Julie,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: it seems to me there's two types of people who
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: kind of think about, actively think about self-managed super funds
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: who may not have them. It's a young person or
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: young up to the age of 47 who are thinking, hey,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: you know, I could do a lot more. I could
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: have control. Crucially, people will often say, I want to
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: put a property in there. I know property. I like property.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And my big fund, my Australian super or CBUS or whatever,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: they're not doing that. They can't buy the house around
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: the corner that I want to buy. That's a big
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: distinction for funds. The other thing that happens is on
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the other side where people have big savings in super,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: where they have... I wish we could get a clear
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: number on this, but there is a point in the
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: big super funds, be they retail or industry, where really
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: they're designed for the average investor and you're not an
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: average investor anymore. And certainly in many funds, you're cross-subsidizing other.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: In terms of the fees you're paying and all that,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: you could be paying much less. Could you explain that
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: to us?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is interesting because even when you look at
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: the statistics on the industry funds, obviously the amounts are
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: a lot smaller and they're in the accumulation phase too.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: When you look at the self-managed fund, it's a very
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: high level of pension drawdown phase and the money is
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: still increasing. So that's a very important point to factor
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: in as well.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're in a very heavy drawdown phase. So
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  Speaker 2: once the debt gain does come back to the person–
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: And their willingness to have that very clear transparency and
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: control and also to invest in other assets that may
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: not fall within the, you know, the approved product listing
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: or structure of their industry fund. And there's a lot
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: of reasons that I see people set them up. A
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: lot of them they do if they're in business. It's
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: part of their structuring process. in businesses, especially if they've
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: got commercial property.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Especially, of course. It's not a huge thing that if
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: you have a business, you can buy, your fund can
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: buy a property and you can rent from your fund, basically,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: which is such a winner if you have a business.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is quite common. And then it's people coming
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: up to, I call it the life cycle of a
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: self-managed fund. It's constantly moving depending on the profile, what
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: members are in, what members are coming in, what are
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: the needs and wishes of those specific members. So it
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: constantly changes and moves and that's why I love them
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: so much. because it can it can it ebb and
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: flow for a family depending on that on that specific
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: members investment needs and desires requirements.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: You mentioned how having a self-managed super fund, apart from
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the control, apart from that you should be paying less in,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: you should be, but you may not be paying less
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: in fees, depends on how much you have and how
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: you operate and whether you have loads of ETFs in there,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: for instance, and it's just this minimum low-touch fund or
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: whether you have this incredibly diversified fund and your accountant
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: is bamboozled every year with your new investments, but then
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: you're going to have higher fees. But what I want
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: to ask you is, you mentioned other assets. The obvious
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: one is direct property. Is there other asset classes that
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: I can put into my SMSF that I don't get
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: asked in a big fund?
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the main one is property, definitely. And it may
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: also be investments with... related parties around allowable investments and structures.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: So without going into too much complexity, it may be
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: going into leveraging, and ultimately it usually is property, but
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: leveraging superannuation with a related party to go in in
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: tenants in common to acquire property or into an unrelated
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: trust to do certain things. So there is a subset
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: of different investments that an industry fund won't allow for.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: And it's also another big thing with self-managed funds. It's
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: the timing.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: It's the timing of when you put your contributions in.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: It's the timing of when you pay your tax.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, great point.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Timing of starting retirement.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: The timing of making sure the who, when and how
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: of your superannuation goes to your loved ones. So it's also,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: it comes back to that control of making sure that
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: you really are maximising the life journey of your family.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: contributions to retirement to estate planning in the most effective
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: way for your family.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: It's very difficult with.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: An industry fund because you just dominate, you're just controlled
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: by forms being sent out to you and you don't
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: know what's happening behind the scene.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they are designed for maths.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: They are.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: And they work very well on that basis.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: They do.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: But not if you want to do so. You were
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: talking about timing. I mean, I think another point with
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: timing is in terms of asset allocation and tactical asset allocation,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: you can decide if you think... that the market is overheating,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: you can reallocate the money out into something else. Likewise,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: if you think a certain area is undercooked and it's
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: going to come flying back, you can move it around.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Or even on the simple basis of shares, right? So
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: the share is tanking. You know it's tanking the whole world.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: It's tanking The big super funds are going to be
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: very slow to get around to getting out of that.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: But you can do it in two seconds.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: And you can have true diversification.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: You can have true diversification where you can go, I
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: even want cash.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: I want term deposits. I want a list of securities
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: in these industries.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And I want– like you can really work with a
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: financial advisor or even depending on how savvy the investor
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: is to really– have that investment strategy that is required
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: for your fund to be that proactive investment strategy that
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: dictates how you are going to invest for your retirement.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: So it does allow you that control and transparency of
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: those words I keep using, but they're very much the case.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: You can very much, you know, but there's a flip side.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: The flip side means that you are required to follow
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: rules strict rules that are, you know, handed down by
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: the ATO because they are the regulator. And it is
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: a very, very high tax concession environment. So, there is,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: you do have to follow a subset of rules and
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: it does take time. It's another entity that needs tax returns.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: To me, the flip side, if I look back at
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: 20 years of having a self-managed super fund, is the
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: spinning out forms, which seems to get worse. It gets
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: worse and worse. And the length and complexity of these
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: forms get worse and worse. I'm just doing one at
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: the moment. What is it? Oh, this isn't even something
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I want to do. This is an existing organization which
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: has changed its rules and has said to me, I
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: must update my form-filling for them and it's just one
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: asset you know it's gold for what it's worth yes
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't really matter what it is the point
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: i'm making is that people have to they really have
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: you really have to say okay i take that on
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: board i'm gonna have to do.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: A lot you need to put the time into it
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: yeah have.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: You have you if i walked into your office and
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: said how long is it going to take me every
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: year or every month have you got a benchmark.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Answer i Well, there's obviously the investing. It depends on
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: how active you want to be as an investor and
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: where you are. So the more active you are, obviously,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: the more time it's going to take. Or if you're
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: a set and forget or if there's a part of
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: your portfolio that you.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: Set and forget, well, it doesn't take too much time.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: But it's a big thing is, once again, the investment
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: strategy that you need to put your mind to. The
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: ATO doesn't want to see just a standard template. They
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: actually want you to go as a trustee. I'm different
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: to a member. I have trustees duties. That's a covenant
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: that is required that you must act in the best
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: interest of members, be it yourself, in the sense of
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: looking at the investment strategy of the fund and making
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: sure it's in line with the sole purpose of retirement
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: for the members, be it yourself.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Tell us what's new in this area. What has changed?
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: There was a period, obviously, where they were front and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: center of the news for the simple reason that you
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: could put any amount into super. In those days, it
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: was uncapped. And then on top of that, the whole
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: area was new and it mushroomed. And now it's matured.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: It has matured. We're 20 or so years in, yeah.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a gentle pace of growth. It's sort of more
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: or less a proxy with the wider population. So what
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: is different now than that period?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Definitely maturity. Maturity of the industry is absolute.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And maturity of the industry is actually carved out certain
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: rules that, you know, people were potentially maybe taking advantage
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: of that were going against the intention.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Of the laws. Right.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Political, but, you know, obviously a different election, different government
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: coming through. Unfortunately, they've wanted to have a look at.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: The rules that sit over there and what can be tweaked,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: which I would like for that to stop for a
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: little while, personally.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, it's a live beast, right?
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, in a way.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: It's a huge amount of money.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Are we dreaming that it will ever be left alone?
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: And maybe that's part of the patch that we have
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: to take on and say, if you want to be
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: active with super, part of that has been across the rules,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: which not that they're changing, but that they will never
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: stop changing.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: It's like income tax rules as well. It is just
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: what tax changes all the time. But, you know, I
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: could talk for hours about the concept where superannuation sits
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: within the landscape of our retirement policy and how much
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: tweaking can get too much. Because at the end of
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: the day, it is one of the pillars. And one
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: of the pillars is government support. One of is self-funding
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: through superannuation. And one of it is assets that sit
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: outside of superannuation. And the government support side is obviously shrinking.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: The coffers are shrinking. And so it should be more
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: encouragement to be able to self-serve and self-invest and be self-sufficient.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: So changing these rules all the time and cutting the
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: ability to contribute is goat to me is going against
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: this ability to self-sufficient. you know, fund your own retirement.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: So it's a fine line of tweaking.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: If I said to you, apart from indexation, inflation indexation,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: which was built in anyway, that all changes of late,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen any, I haven't seen one encouraging change
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: to super for years. They're generally discouraging. Am I, is that?
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Totally correct. And it shouldn't be discouraging. It should be encouraging.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: So we want to save and we want to be
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: able to be self-sufficient in retirement because we need to be.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing this even now with our cost
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: of living crisis. We're needing to be even more self-sufficient
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: moving forward. So I feel like it's a band-aid approach
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: consistently on these changes. And even I could once again
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: spend hours talking about the $ 3 million proposed change.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: It's a band-aid. There's no logic behind it.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Well, we might deal with that in a moment. We
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: might take a short break. Yes. I hope I've come–
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I've learned how to actually explain this tax in less
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: than 30 seconds. I think it's quite good. Good.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: I'll be glad to hear it.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. You can test me after the break. Hello
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: and welcome back to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: James Kirby, the wealth editor at The Australian. I'm talking
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: to Julie Dolan, who is the head of SMSF and
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: estate planning. Julie, I've just thought, in terms of your
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: job title, they're not supposed to be related, SMSFs and
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: estate planning.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I know, I know, but they do feed into each other.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: We are told in sober tones that they have nothing
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: to do with each other, but there you are with that.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I'll just leave that for our listeners to ponder. Okay, now,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: if I've got an SMSF and I see that the
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: big funds are knocking it out of the park... They're
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: doing 10% a year, and that's not the case anymore,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: but there was a year or two where they were
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: doing 10% a year or I read you know obviously
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: you always read about the most successful fund right so
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: there's always going to be a couple of funds that
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: do great and we pay less attention to the ones
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: who are appalling um How do I score myself? I've
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: got an SMSF. How do I score myself? Should I
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: just say, okay, I'll take a fund, CBUS or Super,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: and I've got to beat them every year? I mean,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: would that be a healthy approach?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so difficult because you're comparing apples to oranges. Like,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: unless you're really understanding what the underlying investment methodology is
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: and how active they are versus if it's just set
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: and forget versus if it's active management, then the fee structure, it's–
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: And then even just trying to get to the real
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: bottom figures and not just the broadcasted figures, it's very difficult.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I think with a self-managed fund, you need to be
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: comfortable with your own profile. So you need to be
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: comfortable with you as an investor and how much risk
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you're prepared to take and then invest accordingly. Don't try
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: and chase returns because, you know, and don't try to
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: look backwards on past performance.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: We know that that's not the way to go.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: So it's sitting there going, this is me as an
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: investor and me and my timeline towards when I want
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: to retire or whatever your situation is. This is what
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: I'm comfortable with. And based on that profile, you seek
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: competent advice or invest accordingly based on what your comfort
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: level is.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Well, is there a rock bottom situation? It's a term
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: where you say, look, you'd really want to be doing
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: X percent of both.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Oh, you'd at least want to keep up CPI.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: You don't want to be going backwards with your dollars,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: that's for sure. You don't want to be sitting it
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: all in cash and going backwards. But some people are.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Some people are comfortable with that.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I wonder why they're comfortable with that.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: It's a very hard one to say. Actually, every fund
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: is different. Every single super fund is different. That's what
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I love about them. in essence, because they are investing
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: accordingly based, and it's not only just based on them,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: it's based on the profile of their family.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: And that even gets even more interesting when the kids
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: come in.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, and of course all funds have two, generally it
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: tends to be two partners, husband and wife or whatever.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: That's the sort of core unit in super, but you
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: can have up to six people in the fund now.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: What's the average?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: Does that make any sense? It's still a dominant two-member
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: fund still. There's pros and cons of bringing children into
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the fund or even pros and cons of having business
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: partners in there.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, I expect there is. Yeah, okay. I won't go
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: down that alley just for the moment because I wanted
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: to ask you one or two other things. Well, contemporary issues.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: So we had a budget recently and we've had some– well,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: there's text. The main news, of course, out of the budget,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: none of which was in the budget per se, but
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: this year– is there are tax cuts, personal tax cuts
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: across the board. The ones on the upper end are
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: smaller than they were going to be, but there are
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: still tax cuts for everybody, as they like to tell us. Now,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: in terms of super and tax, the biggest news probably
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: for a long time is that apart from inflation indexing,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: as I mentioned, where the amount you can put in
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: has increased a little bit pre-tax contributions has gone from
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: 27 and a half thousand to 30,000. And the SGC,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: the compulsory amount that must go into super on your
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: behalf each year goes from 11 to 11.5% in July.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: So we all know that. But the newest thing in
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: tax and super is that for a long time, being
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: the last couple of years, how tax worked in super
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: was once you had more than 1.9 per capita, per head,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: per member, then you started to pay tax and it
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: was at 15%. And then out of the blue, the
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: government has announced a second tax, a new tax, a
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: fresh tax. This tax kicks in at 3 million. And
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: once you've more than 3 million, you pay another 15% tax.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: And this tax is completely different. It's based on paper gains.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: And people are furious about this. All I want to
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: say to you is, Is there any reason to think
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: that it's not going to go through as planned?
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: I'm still keeping my fingers and toes crossed.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So where we currently stand is obviously the Senate Select Committee.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: There was a report done back 17th of May.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: And they supported that report to say go through unchanged.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they basically said it's fine. It's fine passing paper gains.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: It's fine not even putting in.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no changes.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Even though as an industry we've been fighting hard, fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: even coming to another solution of doing a deeming rate.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: And so there's been all sorts. So last week it
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: went through the lower house. And it actually got adjourned
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: a few times because there was about 12 to 15
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: MPs really, really showing.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Distaste and concern.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: About a lot of policies and mainly around the unrealised
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: gains and the lack of indexation and the flow-on effect.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: There's so many flow-on effects. Those two are highlighted.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: But when you actually get into the nitty-gritty of the
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: proposed changes, there's a whole lot of subset of consequences,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: which there's a lot there. And where we currently stand
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: now is it's going into Senate, to the upper house, and.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: We expect that there will be a very strong debate.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: So government's trying to push through it to be legislated
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: by 30 June. We've still got another election as well
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: that's going to be sitting on the side. So I'm
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: praying and hoping that common sense will still prevail, even
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: though we're getting to the pointy end. I'm being an
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: optimist here and I'm sending out all my energy.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Well, I just don't know. I don't know. I don't
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: know how Parliament really works.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: But I suppose that's where we stand. That's the actual
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: facts right now.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: There is a distinct possibility that there could be some
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: sort of deal done in the Senate that amends this tax.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that remains a distinct possibility, doesn't it?
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: We've still got a way to go. We do have
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: still a way to go.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, all right. And so will that weigh against
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: SMSFs and the participation in them, do you think, if
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: it goes through?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Well, it'll definitely affect the funds that are at maturity
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: and the ones that have got more than, you know,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: obviously the 3 mil. Lack of indexation will affect... funds
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: going forward so that is that is um it's a
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: it's a it definitely will be dint that's for sure
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: there'll be a release if it goes through there'll be
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: a a strong a big release of funds which will
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: which will cause issues in its own right in the
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: sense of potential for sale of assets which weren't planning
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: to be sold and unnecessary transaction costs there's a So
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: another big sleeper, which I spend a lot of time
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: talking to clients on, is not only the proposed DIV
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: 296 tax, but it's the death benefit tax that sits
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: on top of.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: This as well. Just before you tell us about that,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: the 296, folks, is the $ 3 million tax, just so
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: everyone knows.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I've been an accounting nerd there.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: It's all right. We're all nerds.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: It's just some of us are paid to translate a bit.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: So tell us what you wanted to say about the debt.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: high death benefits.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah so a lot of clients so everyone you know
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: James you get your own financials and you have part
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: of that you have your member statements and if you're
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: over 60 and you can you can access your superannuation
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: without paying any tax as a lump sum or a
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: pension beautiful system beautiful thing um But still in your
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: member statement, you would have a tax-free and a taxable
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: component that's shown there. And basically that tax-free amount is
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: your after-tax monies that you've been able to put into
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: the fund over the years. And the balance is all
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: the earnings that it's made and all your super guarantee
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: contributions that it's built up. Now, a lot of funds,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: that's quite a big, especially for how long, you know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: you've been in yours for 20 years, James. You may
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: have quite a large taxable component there too. So what
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: that means is dependent on who it goes on your passing,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: if it says it goes out to, ultimately goes out
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: to adult financially independent children, there is up to 17%
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: tax on that amount.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, and the tax account. The taxable component is taxed
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: at 17% effectively. Yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Has something changed?
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: No, it's just the fact that this additional tax within
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: the fund is another tax on top of another tax
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: that will potentially. So it's working through with clients saying,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: all right, well, you're in this space now. What do
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: we do and start to move as a hybrid model?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, I get you. Because of this notion of double tax.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I just want to ask you one last thing.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: It's no tax whilst you're alive to take money out. Yes, yeah.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: So it's the effective. Folks, just to clarify, in case
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: you're not following this, and it isn't it's super so
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: it's a tricky but like um people say uh what
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: happens to you if you if you if in in
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: terms of inheritance and super is becoming more and more
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: correct me if anything's wrong here julie inheritance become more
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: important um in relation to super right so often people
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: will have more in super than anything else except at
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: home and correct the taxable component that julie's talking about
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: there the the the Believe it or not, the little
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: bit that you got tax concessions on over the years,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: they will tax that part when you die in your
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: death benefit and effectively works out at 17%. So that's
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: what you're alluding to. Is that right?
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: So if you're in that category where you've got a
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: high superannuation balance and you do have a high taxable
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: component and you have potentially this additional tax that may
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: apply to It's working through, I work through with clients
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: on what is the best structure? What are your potential
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: plan B and C if this tax comes through? Do
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: we look to move some money out? And if we do,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: what structure does it go into? And potentially having like
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: a hybrid model of investment vehicles.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Okay. I have two more questions for you. I'm going
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: to try and make them short.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: One.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: This thing about having a threshold in super, is it
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: effectively a cap? I mean, really, basically, would you be
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: a fool to have more than 3 million in super
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: ever under these new rules? Do you want to put
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that question to one side? What did they say? Put
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: that on reserve.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the way the rules work because you can
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: have a really high balance and not have to pay
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the tax.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: So there's a whole misconception around how it works.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: But isn't it also the case that you could leave
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: the money in the super system per se, the system,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: and only pay 15% on it rather than the bit
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that's excess? Couldn't you have it in the system? But
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: you'd only be paying 15. You wouldn't be paying marginal
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: rates or anything.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Well, no, you'd have to take it out of the
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: system and maybe have it in another tax vehicle to
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: keep the rates down.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Yes, to keep the rates down.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: But if you did nothing, if inertia, then what would happen?
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: It would be taxed.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, if you had over $ 3 million. It's not all
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: the amount over $ 3 million. It's what your balance is
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: at 1 July 2025 when it comes in.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: If your balance is at $ 7 million and it increases.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: To $ 7. 5.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: It's only that half a million dollars that– That's the
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: baseline of the calculation. So it's always important to note
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: that too. It's not everything over 3 million. This is
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: just a standard cap.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: So keep all that in mind, folks. Should you be
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: in the fortunate position to have that amount in super?
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure many listeners are saying, really? I don't
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: have this problem, which you probably don't. But if they
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: don't index it for inflation, you'd be surprised how fast
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: it comes around, let me tell you. If you think
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: about house prices and how much they've moved.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: It's not only about that, James. Yeah, it's not only
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: about that, James, too. It's just the fact also that
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: it's going against the basic tax principles.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: You don't tax paper gains.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's really the heart of the problem here.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. OK, we'll take and we certainly will take that
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: take that on board.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, OK.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: We will break and we will be back with some
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: great questions designed specifically for Julie, because I have a
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: couple of SMSF questions which I've collected for her. OK,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: back in a moment. Hello and welcome back to the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. James Kirby talking to Julie Dolan
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: from KPMG. Okay, Tracy says, my husband and I have
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: a self-managed super fund and also two daughters and a
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: younger son. What would be the positives and negatives of
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: incorporating them into the SMSF now that it can have
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: six members? You mentioned that briefly.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: So the positives are it's obviously bringing the power of
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: bringing more money into the one area, into the one
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: bank account per se or the one structure to invest.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: So you've got the leverage of more capital to invest.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: So that's a very positive piece. The other piece is education.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I like the fact that, you know, your children are
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: on the journey with you on educating around how to
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: invest and learning what everything around that means. And, you know,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: obviously it's a reduction in fees potentially by consolidating the
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: family super together. So that'd be the main advantages. The
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: disadvantages are you are all in it together. So there
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: could be cause issues on the family side around disagreements
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: on investing.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Families can row. Yes. And the older... And the brothers
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: and sisters are always killing each other, will be killing
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: each other inside the SMSF meeting too. Maybe that's what
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: you're alluding to.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Also too, it's not to underestimate the responsibility of the
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: children having to be directors themselves.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, of course.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: And that's a big one.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: And I would think also we have, because this is new,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: it's not been tested, but if you have very old
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: parents who just want income and you've got very young,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: relatively younger adult participants and they want something entirely different.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: And then we get this whole area of elder abuse
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: that's coming through too.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Elder abuse, yeah, which is a new corridor, if you like,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: a potential new corridor to it. Yeah, that's an article
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: for me to write someday, Julie. Okay, I keep you
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: in mind. Okay, unfortunately, just on time, we can fit
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: in one more question. It's from Matt. After substandard returns
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: over two years... I've decided to take over the management
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: of my self-managed super fund. And I plan, I think
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: he means the investment allocation. I plan to move about
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: 12 stocks and three managed funds over and flip them
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: into a few selected exchange traded funds. Is there anything
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: I should be considering before doing this? Tax implications, et cetera.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Is there a recommended way of making a change? Yeah,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: so of course everyone loves ETFs. Certainly they love its simplicity,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: low fees, and this concept that you can only go
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: so wrong or can't go any more wrong than anybody else.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: And this is never advice, folks. This is information only.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: But from a universal perspective, when someone has some sort
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: of eureka moment and says, gee, you know, my fund
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: is too complicated. I'd slam it all into ETFs, one
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: for the US, one for Australia, you know, one for bonds.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: What's your gut reaction to that, Julie?
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: My gut reaction to that is never do anything for
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: tax reasons. So do it purely if it's a good
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: investment for you. So once again, you know, based on,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: As you mentioned, James, if it's getting too complex, if
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the risk is getting a little bit skewed to what
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: you're comfortable with, do it for you based on your
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: investment principles. Don't ever do an investment decision for tax
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: because it's a byproduct.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, of course. And that's a point that's regularly made
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: by advisors across all investing. Yeah, don't do it for tax.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Do it because it makes sense and then see what
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: the tax is.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah, do it the other way around.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Terrific.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: That's a good way to finish, I think. Thank you
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: very much, Julie Doolan. Yes, thank you.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Thank you, James. I really enjoyed joining you today. Great
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: to have you on the show.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: And thank you very much. We haven't talked much before.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: We haven't had you on the show before, but it
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: was great. Thank you very much. We will have you again.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Lovely to talk. That was Julie Dolan, folks, head of
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: SMSF and estate planning at KPMG. OK, I didn't get
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: through all the questions because Julie was so interesting and
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: there was so much to talk about there. And I
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: know that we don't do SMSFs perhaps as often as
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: we should. Uh, it's, uh, it's... Great area. I recommend
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: anyone who's an active investor to look at them. I'm
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: not saying get one, do one, but certainly check them
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: out and see would they suit you. And as I say,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: I've had one myself for 20 years or so. And
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: it's been a real education, as you can imagine, through
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: the years, through the GFC, through everything else, COVID and
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: everything else. You are tested, that's for sure, at times
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: with them. because you're on your own and you can't
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: just hope that the committee, investment committee at your big
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: super fund is getting it right. That's the thing I
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: think that we should all keep in mind. All right,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: let's have some more questions. The money puzzle at theaustralian.com.au
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: is the email. Talk to you soon.