Latest / The Biorevolution Podcast / Nature’s origami– DNA nanotechnology

Transcript

Nature’s origami– DNA nanotechnology · The Biorevolution Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Biorevolution Podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Your hosts,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Luise von Stechhoff
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: and Andreas Reuchler.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: This is the biorevolutions podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Nature's Origami DNA nanotechnology todays story.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: So it´s basically about the general notion of looking at DNA And treating DNA as programmable material.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: In that sense we'll talk about chances roadblocks end this time origami as the title indicated, too.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: It's a little easy how are you?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I am excellent!
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Really excited to talk about this today because it is a whole realm of new things that i didn't know and more i read looking forward to diving into this.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: We have Marco Lolaico with us, joining us from Copenhagen originally from Italy I suppose who holds a PhD in biophysics and is an expert in nanotechnology.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: DNA Is With Us Today will introduce him properly in the minute.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: but as always we start with our quotes.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: what did you bring?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Yes i brought something on Nanotechnology In general From Eric Drexler Who's a nano technology pioneer who says the slightly, how you say that like circular quote of we know.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: The basic principles of molecular machinery will work because they do work which I think is interesting.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: but when it comes to DNA and especially DNA nanotechnology That's something i could subscribe too.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: And another one from Michael Lafoss on origami and he says in hand of an artist piece of paper becomes a world of possibilities.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: When it comes to DNA nanotechnology, yeah we have a world of possibilities.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And I think there are a lot of cool things that you can do with DNA except for using as an information storage which was actually not that aware off.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: so i'm really looking forward.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: And Marco, besides from having a PhD in biophysics and being an expert on DNA nanotechnology is also startup founder.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: He's also science writer who writes this excellent newsletter which has called Plenty of Room.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: We need to quickly hear about the title for what that reference is.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: but here he talks about DNA nanotech as well as AI based protein design.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Some RNAs are very cool too.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I think we only have time today.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: so Marco welcome!
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: revolution podcast today.
• 2:27
  Speaker 0: Okay, thank you very much for having me
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: excellent.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: maybe could you tell us very briefly the plenty of room.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: this I want to say what.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: it's a reference too but i don't want to Say something stupid.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: so leave It up To You to explain that.
• 2:40
  Speaker 0: yes yeah its a it's A Feynman quote from This famous speech.
• 2:44
  Speaker 0: there is plenty Of room at The bottom.
• 2:45
  Speaker 0: That Is you know someone Considered you Know like one of the basis of no technology?
• 2:50
  Speaker 0: Its not really But Feynman was definitely very good at capturing attention.
• 2:55
  Speaker 0: So yeah, it's a Feynmen quote!
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah...
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: It is funny because we started our last episode where talked about the brain also with a Feyenman quote.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: so I thought actually this is the reference.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: but sometimes you mix up things and didn't want to say it wrong..but happy that we can agree that this man produced good quotes
• 3:11
  Speaker 0: For sure, for sure.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I got things wrong through quoting this time as well because i thought you mark would be an artist.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: origami artists not
• 3:21
  Speaker 0: a. I wish my artistic skills are not that high unfortunately and it's always on the list to do some actual real life origami instead of like nanoscales stuff only something they have
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: You haven't.
• 3:36
  Speaker 0: Not really, not really.
• 3:37
  Speaker 0: I have a lot of like saved things on Instagram that i want to try.
• 3:40
  Speaker 0: yeah
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: okay nice.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: so guys let's try to dig into the nano the particularly small world of DNA and nanotechnology.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: where does it come from?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: how does it work for an outsider the non-scientist which is me?
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: please try to explain it.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I don't have a clue.
• 3:59
  Speaker 0: Should they go?
• 4:00
  Speaker 0: Yeah,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: please.
• 4:01
  Speaker 0: okay
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: i have like only the hint of a clue.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: so
• 4:04
  Speaker 0: yeah the end of technology is when you want to create materials or structures Or if you want To create machines machines having it's A good way Of thinking about them at the nano scale.
• 4:15
  Speaker 0: So It's always Like this Classical Comparison.
• 4:19
  Speaker 0: You Have you know like your hair that Is very thin right and like The nanoscale is like one thousand times smaller than That.
• 4:27
  Speaker 0: So we're talking about very small.
• 4:28
  Speaker 0: And in our case, you want to use DNA?
• 4:31
  Speaker 0: We won't use DNA but not like as generally one thinks of it has a genetic material.
• 4:36
  Speaker 0: because that's what even for I have a molecular biology background.
• 4:39
  Speaker 0: so even for us biologists... That is mostly what you think about and don't really think about something real or an actual material.
• 4:47
  Speaker 0: You can actually use it.
• 4:48
  Speaker 0: For the most important property, I guess you can say of DNA that makes it like such an interesting material is that You can program it and then it will just self-assemble And It's very reliable.
• 5:02
  Speaker 0: Like we know how it works.
• 5:03
  Speaker 0: We know the A will bind to G C will bind To g and we bind to t and That will work.
• 5:10
  Speaker 0: Yeah So that pretty much what?
• 5:13
  Speaker 0: The basic understanding strengths of DNA, they will find each other in solution.
• 5:19
  Speaker 0: They would bind to each other and you know how that we'll buy into each other.
• 5:22
  Speaker 0: so if you want to have a lot of them That will form bigger structures And then you won't use this big structure and put like proteins on that or You don't wanna have maybe just two strands that bind only If they found specific biomarker let's say Then the start to flourishing for example these kind things.
• 5:45
  Speaker 0: that's pretty much in a very, very small national I guess.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah i mean before we talk about use cases of course we have to determine easy.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: do we know when this originated where it comes from?
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: When people started thinking birth date of this technology?
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, the birthday.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I think Marco has to help me with but i think it was a paper in the eighties by net seaman who was and really like that because we had crossover episodes two already where art meets science.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: so having these scientists getting inspired by art and vice versa And also here he was actually or at least the myth goes That you were inspired by an mcsher painting.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So most listeners will be familiar staircases that are a conundrum kind of.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And apparently he took his inspiration from that, so I think it's pretty cool and i think that is an interesting part in this field That DNA...and This Is Why I Said In The Beginning!
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: It Of Course A Material For Information Storage and in the nanotechnology can also hold information but it Can Also Be Used Irrespective Of This Information Storage.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: So We're Not Talking About per se changing genes, changing our genetic material in cells.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: We can use DNA just as a structural material like a mini plastic or something like that and this I think is pretty
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: cool.".
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: That said you could also encode some information at the same time to make it even more exciting there.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Marco correct me if i'm saying it wrong but I think the inception of the field was in the eighties.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: So what would you say, DNA origami is kind of the coolest thing in DNA nanotech?
• 7:45
  Speaker 0: Well I did do my PhD on DNA Origami but maybe i shouldn't say this.
• 7:50
  Speaker 0: But yeah, DNA Origam made everything more approachable.
• 7:54
  Speaker 0: DNA Origamis are a very simple technique to actually do practically, you know in the lab.
• 8:00
  Speaker 0: while other types of assembling are a bit more fragile they're a bit delicate.
• 8:05
  Speaker 0: You have to be careful.
• 8:06
  Speaker 0: The great thing about the Enurigami is that... ...you don't need it to be super precise with lots of things.
• 8:13
  Speaker 0: It has a lot room for error and I think thats why after year two thousand and six there was really like an explosion In DNN technology.
• 8:21
  Speaker 0: And its also probably because yeah as u said net zone had the idea in the eighties, but it took him like a good long time to actually do something about it.
• 8:33
  Speaker 0: because It was also that at the time DNA Was very expensive.
• 8:37
  Speaker 0: just make and it was very hard to make right?
• 8:40
  Speaker 0: But then Things improved.
• 8:42
  Speaker 0: now we can't make any dna you.
• 8:44
  Speaker 0: Just go And new order it.
• 8:46
  Speaker 0: dinner again is still expensive Because you need a lot of DNA, but even just ordered At that Time You had To Actually Make It Yourself.
• 8:54
  Speaker 0: I have absolutely no clue how to Do For example,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: poor scientists back in the days.
• 8:59
  Speaker 0: Yeah exactly
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: life got a lot easier.
• 9:01
  Speaker 0: yeah do
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: you know if anyone ever made like an origami structure out of DNA?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Like the crane The famous one that would be this typical origami shape?
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: or
• 9:13
  Speaker 0: have I seen a crane around?
• 9:15
  Speaker 0: i'm not sure about That but my old he did my PhD supervisor He didn't do like a bunny out of dna.
• 9:22
  Speaker 0: so that is also pretty funny.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: And I think the nature cover back then was a smiley made of DNA, right?
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: So yeah.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: It's cool to make but also little bit useless.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: so...
• 9:34
  Speaker 0: Not sure about that.
• 9:35
  Speaker 0: A smiley might not be maybe most optimal surface shape But it is a surface you can put stuff on it and see where this is because it's a truly surface reasonably straightforward.
• 9:48
  Speaker 0: we know how do that.
• 9:49
  Speaker 0: also other fields, right?
• 9:51
  Speaker 0: So if you put like gold nanoparticles or if we put like strengths of DNA sticking out.
• 9:56
  Speaker 0: You can see If they...if you have Like yeah, you're looking for some DNA in a sample and see if it binds there.
• 10:03
  Speaker 0: so is the most like.
• 10:04
  Speaker 0: do you need to have us Miley on your cheap for DNA detection?
• 10:10
  Speaker 0: probably not but maybe It's not really The worst thing that I couldn't put their.
• 10:14
  Speaker 0: to be honest
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: What would he say both from all the structures you've seen, and I think based on that.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: You write this newsletter where you come across different types of DNA origami structures or general DNA nanotechnology?
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: What would be the coolest or most exciting structure made so far in?
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: maybe starting with non-moving things but static type?
• 10:43
  Speaker 0: Of course there are a lot And depends.
• 10:45
  Speaker 0: now, that's just like the interesting part.
• 10:47
  Speaker 0: Now DNR technology is really coming into its own as a field so you do get lots of different approaches.
• 10:53
  Speaker 0: for example there are people or what I did during my PhD was trying to make specific type of DNR nanostructures this wireframe nanostructure generally have very blocky structures but can also use more open the structures like you know, bridges.
• 11:12
  Speaker 0: they use wireframe this kind of stuff and those ones can have some specific improvements like advantages for example.
• 11:20
  Speaker 0: You make them bigger using the same amount of material which is helpful.
• 11:24
  Speaker 0: but other people just say no I want to use these block materials or structures huge.
• 11:31
  Speaker 0: And how do you do that?
• 11:32
  Speaker 0: You combine a lot of them, and it's in Germany has worked a lot on them
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: to me right
• 11:39
  Speaker 0: exactly.
• 11:40
  Speaker 0: they work out on that made something very big, they mostly use like triangular structures.
• 11:46
  Speaker 0: so then you get that everything is pretty much like a geometrical shapes and it's pretty cool to look at in my opinion.
• 11:53
  Speaker 0: Can
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I ask him there?
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: In the realm of nanotech how big is huge?
• 11:57
  Speaker 0: yeah this point
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: could i see with my own eyes or Is It still...
• 12:01
  Speaker 0: I mean if your have good eyes I'm not sure.. I have glasses.
• 12:05
  Speaker 0: maybe better than either.
• 12:08
  Speaker 0: No, I mean so it's also like a little bit hard.
• 12:10
  Speaker 0: Like we're talking probably still i would say maybe up to like a micrometer scale and It's also got into the heart.
• 12:18
  Speaker 0: because that's why didn't you know technology side too big.
• 12:20
  Speaker 0: defend them?
• 12:22
  Speaker 0: Normal nanotechnology.
• 12:23
  Speaker 0: Because normal nanotechnology are often thinking about two D surfaces like for example chips.
• 12:29
  Speaker 0: right they're all too deep.
• 12:31
  Speaker 0: Now, there's starting to try and make free-d structures at the end of.
• 12:34
  Speaker 0: origami doesn't have that limitation.
• 12:36
  Speaker 0: actually you can make three destructures reasonably easy but it becomes a little bit hard because like very long thin semiconductor thing it's very long in one direction, is very thin on the other one.
• 12:49
  Speaker 0: Yeah often you might have like round structures.
• 12:52
  Speaker 0: they are lower than micrometers... It's very hard!
• 12:55
  Speaker 0: Some people try and there some work on that And as well depends a little bit what we're doing.
• 13:01
  Speaker 0: We can do micrometer sized surfaces for example just repetitive Like you could imagine like sort of like lattice Those ones possible to do?
• 13:12
  Speaker 0: working on that because once again, those can be very useful for sensing applications of all kinds or yeah possibly electronics.
• 13:19
  Speaker 0: There is a whole this kind of stuff that can interact with other things and they need like no very big surfaces there.
• 13:25
  Speaker 0: but it becomes like little bit hard to make too big stuff.
• 13:28
  Speaker 0: But my dream would be to make extra thing.
• 13:30
  Speaker 0: so I know you can touch.
• 13:32
  Speaker 0: That will pretty funny.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: We were talking about the fun part intensely right now And i cant wait hear more tech applications, but this is a by revolution podcast.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And therefore we have to talk about the biotech applications that are possible.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: so far my understanding Is okay?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: We have structures.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: We have The fun part But where's your use cases?
• 13:56
  Speaker 0: yeah mean I also Have a bio tech background.
• 13:58
  Speaker 0: So that's pretty easy for me To understand.
• 14:00
  Speaker 0: actually because Actually i find it at the non-biotic application since they're Way out there by the way Are much more fun for biotech.
• 14:10
  Speaker 0: definitely there is a lot of work.
• 14:12
  Speaker 0: the closest ones that i can see, even some commercial products are in imaging.
• 14:18
  Speaker 0: so for example for ascent imaging I think they're best used at least for dna origami because it's also slightly different between nano technology and dna Origami.
• 14:29
  Speaker 0: dn origami is probably most common technique but dna technology has other parts but for the origami it can make big structures and they're very addressable.
• 14:38
  Speaker 0: so you know exactly where You are gonna put something.
• 14:41
  Speaker 0: So, For example this is a huge thing for imaging because if we want to figure out The resolution of your microscope setting right?
• 14:49
  Speaker 0: We want to know.
• 14:50
  Speaker 0: okay I have these fluorophore And another fluorophor.
• 14:54
  Speaker 0: at ten nanometers apart Can actually see that there's two fluorophores just like a giant blob And that one, it's very hard to do with other techniques.
• 15:03
  Speaker 0: A lot of techniques tend to make random distributional things while for DNA regum you can actually know oh hey yes!
• 15:10
  Speaker 0: That is gonna be there.
• 15:11
  Speaker 0: and then there are a lot working diagnostics.
• 15:14
  Speaker 0: because well if we're looking at nucleic acids which could be DNA or RNA its pretty straightforward that you can have even like a reasonably simple.
• 15:24
  Speaker 0: but in theory, it's just to have like a simple setting where if there is something binds on one strand and another stand.
• 15:30
  Speaker 0: It will link them together And then maybe you'll have a threat at the point You have fluorescence of this point!
• 15:36
  Speaker 0: Then you get recognition... ...and also you can do signal amplification because instead of one floor for example antibodies often are very hard to have more than functional things that aside from the binding.
• 15:53
  Speaker 0: But with DNA, you can have just a lot of things self-assembled and at this point to have huge signal amplification.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: So it would be for recognizing disease proteins?
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Could they work like how specific could those are?
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Would you say these would also work in detecting rare diseases which has different genetic products or...
• 16:15
  Speaker 0: The nice thing about DNA not a conjugate is very versatile!
• 16:18
  Speaker 0: For example, you can combine it very easily with antibodies.
• 16:21
  Speaker 0: You can have...you can combine this with a small moich and use Uptomers.
• 16:25
  Speaker 0: Optimus are also a kind of DNA technology, kind of not.
• 16:28
  Speaker 0: Optimus have just very short strands of DNA or RNA that can function more less like antibodies.
• 16:36
  Speaker 0: so they bind to things and there then you can have the same thing.
• 16:39
  Speaker 0: You know They can bind.
• 16:40
  Speaker 0: well most people try to find ones that bind Of course proteins but you can also have them bind two small molecules.
• 16:46
  Speaker 0: I Know There Are Some Uptapers for Cocaine So We Can Use It For To Detect Cocaine?
• 16:50
  Speaker 0: Yeah it's Kindof Like A Very General Tool.
• 16:53
  Speaker 0: i think that's also like one of its trends and it's also that often DNA is kind of inert.
• 17:00
  Speaker 0: Like, doesn't do much on its own right?
• 17:02
  Speaker 0: Often you have to add functions.
• 17:03
  Speaker 0: yeah if you want to recognize a protein then you have like your DNA origami.
• 17:06
  Speaker 0: You have to Add something or It can be an antibody.
• 17:09
  Speaker 0: Can we simply an optomer?
• 17:10
  Speaker 0: Optomers are just very easy To implement in these things but at the same time which means they're very inert do much.
• 17:17
  Speaker 0: It might bind a bit randomly because of surface charges and things like that, but aside from going back to the biotech applications, that's definitely also somewhere where people are trying to use DNA origami for drug delivery.
• 17:40
  Speaker 0: They're trying to design vaccines... There is a Testa company called Dorinano in the US and if I remember correctly they try to make cancer vaccines using DNA Origami.
• 17:51
  Speaker 0: And for these DNA Origamis it probably one of best used cases.
• 17:58
  Speaker 0: Some diseases, because some set receptors respond very well when there is like a specific shape and size of binders.
• 18:08
  Speaker 0: So that for example one my old PhD mate in my old lab he was using the Enoregami to put six ligands at a specific distance from each other In a specific hexagonal shape.
• 18:22
  Speaker 0: so then they could go activate DR-V on the cell, DEF receptor V on the cells and kill them would only work, he's a smart guy.
• 18:30
  Speaker 0: This will only activate when the pH in environment was below certain level.
• 18:37
  Speaker 0: and this is also because you can have DNA strands that open and closed based on the pH.
• 18:42
  Speaker 0: That's DNA things.
• 18:43
  Speaker 0: In that way since two more sites they had lower pH than rest of body Moracilic They could control where the DNA origami structures were opened And actually killed cells.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: You had a cool paper in your newsletter about the cancer traps like DNA nanostructures that fish out harmful molecules from the tumor microenvironment, like TGF beta.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: The cool thing and I'm five steps ahead of this because it is all very early stages but you could think off.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: structures even have dual purposes right?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: That can act as vaccine or counteract for example negative anti-immunogenic factors like TGF beta.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: And then you have, this is the old dream of tumor immunocology where you have some cancers that respond really well and some don't respond at all to these new drugs like Ketruda and Co.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Of course turning these cold tumors into hot tumors That's something many biotechs are working on.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Some kind of strategy to enrich the immunogenicity.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: That could be really cool.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: And there, for example I see massive potential for this technology that's at the potential stage and has not gone beyond mice so
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: far.".
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I think also in the whole field of vaccine development... This is another paper you shared which looked interesting.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: having a non-specific immune response to HIV elicited or like potential HIV vaccine?
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: We know it was still very deadly even though there are good drugs but they're of course.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: I mean a vaccine would be much better than having the treatment.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: This has so far not worked, although people have been working on trying to find a vaccine for a long time and that could obviously if it were different strategy based upon more structural approach which is interesting.
• 20:40
  Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:40
  Speaker 0: Because that's also what I was saying about... This is the paper when i was talking about immunogenicity of DNA origami because also proteins can do a lot similar things.
• 20:51
  Speaker 0: you could with a DNA origamis scaffold at end day.
• 20:54
  Speaker 0: They have some technical problems.
• 20:56
  Speaker 0: Of course it very hard to make diverse proteins that assemble into specific shape And I took them right.
• 21:04
  Speaker 0: but proteins are.
• 21:06
  Speaker 0: they tend to create an immune response simply because that's what we do.
• 21:10
  Speaker 0: That's what the immune system does, right?
• 21:13
  Speaker 0: But DNA origami especially DNA of course it is a little bit immunogenic like you can have receptors that bind to DNA and then they don't like it when you get immune response.
• 21:24
  Speaker 0: but probably since DNA in DNA origamis so densely packed because very densely parked It doesn't really interact with much in the cells also there pretty big like the big structures for, you know compared to proteins so they're much bigger.
• 21:38
  Speaker 0: So that's also... it is kind of thing at least I wasn't thinking about as a biologist.
• 21:46
  Speaker 0: but when you have that GFP most famous protein out there right?
• 21:51
  Speaker 0: Is two nanometers or diameter something and that's just the diameter of a double-stranded helices of DNA, then you have.
• 22:01
  Speaker 0: these structures are too much bigger.
• 22:03
  Speaker 0: so like cells aren't made to interact with them.
• 22:05
  Speaker 0: That is probably why they don't really do this much.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: So let us go from high potential when it comes to drug development all in science fiction and the tech-and biology border.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, you mentioned batteries talk about storage but computing systems.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: so really at crossroads of biology and tech what's going on there?
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: i think it's going from high potential to something that is a little farther into not so near future right?
• 22:52
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean batteries is my own personal thing.
• 22:54
  Speaker 0: I don't think there's anyone working on batteries unfortunately.
• 22:57
  Speaker 0: but today
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: the world please
• 22:59
  Speaker 0: yeah but there is a lot of work on you know, free the batteries and it's yeah once again like with standard DNA.
• 23:06
  Speaker 0: sorry it's not.
• 23:06
  Speaker 0: nanotechnology techniques are very hard to do for these structures.
• 23:10
  Speaker 0: And stuff like that.
• 23:11
  Speaker 0: so this actually some work using biobased materials.
• 23:14
  Speaker 0: I've seen Some people already have long time ago use like phages making structures out them.
• 23:20
  Speaker 0: But in the DNA computing side or data storage all this sort computing stuff, there is a lot of work.
• 23:29
  Speaker 0: The DNA data storage.
• 23:31
  Speaker 0: this is mostly still like basic you know.
• 23:35
  Speaker 0: okay we have long DNA strands or some DNA strands that they interact with each other and then put them somewhere and then we sequence them.
• 23:45
  Speaker 0: the problem with that is generally it works very well.
• 23:50
  Speaker 0: You Know DNA is good at being stable.
• 23:54
  Speaker 0: There's a company I don't remember which one then they make some sort of like beads that are very similar to amber beads, a very Jurassic Park aminescent there.
• 24:04
  Speaker 0: And then put the DNA inside and this one will just last forever in practice.
• 24:08
  Speaker 0: but often these things are made for data you want to keep forever.
• 24:13
  Speaker 0: if you want we have to store healthcare data on our whole population.
• 24:18
  Speaker 0: You don't need access them very often But probably it would be needed something faster using dino origami for that.
• 24:28
  Speaker 0: now i don't think that particular idea will work because it's like was based on actually imaging every time your structures and that's definitely not doable.
• 24:39
  Speaker 0: but these structures are also pretty stable in the right environment.
• 24:44
  Speaker 0: so yeah I think DNA computing is going to go somewhere.
• 24:49
  Speaker 0: I mean, data storage is already there.
• 24:51
  Speaker 0: like they are companies and you can...I don't know if you can but people like institutions can go and store their data in DNA And it will last for a very long time because just what DNA's good at gave information.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And I think two cool things about that is, we don't know what language people in the future will speak but if they exist then they'll have DNA.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: so... They're among
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the aliens right?
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: and i think there was a company or project which sent like information all over the world encoded into space.
• 25:28
  Speaker 0: A long time ago there was something about DNA in there, but I don't remember what it was.
• 25:35
  Speaker 0: This
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: is really cool.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: and just thinking like the coding possibilities you have a digital code of two And here we've got a code for four so immediately You increase your possibilities.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: this is what i find so cool About this topic that has dual quality information and the structure in this same material.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: And if you combine that two in an intelligent way, then you get both properties in one material?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: This is pretty fascinating I have to say!
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: One thing we don't think time can touch upon when doing maybe a separate episode on it.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: of course R&A which may be less stable but also could do many cool things But i think might be beyond scope.
• 26:22
  Speaker 0: Yeah its little bit behind as field RNA nanotech.
• 26:25
  Speaker 0: It's just because, yeah I think that they had even you know there was even more problems actually synthesizing RNA until a few... You have to first synthesize DNA.
• 26:35
  Speaker 0: the DNA did want which was hard and then you'll have to make it like maybe in vitro.
• 26:40
  Speaker 0: now we can do this easy.
• 26:41
  Speaker 0: Maybe a few years ago it wasn't that easy.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah i think maybe We can move little bit towards.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: where would consider are there any risks?
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: To this field?
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Any shortcomings?
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe thinking about the bigger risks.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: I quoted Eric Drexler in The Beginning who made up this famous gray goo scenario which i think is being like recycled as a paper clip scenario where AI wants to kill us by making paper clips and back then it was a synthetic biology that just want's to create grey goo and kills the world in days Which i think...I mean..was thought experiment but not very helpful for fieldback done.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like for DNA since it is a biological material, do see any risks in using it as an nanotechnology material?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I
• 27:28
  Speaker 0: mean honestly no.
• 27:29
  Speaker 0: I can say that these things cannot self-replicate by themselves For Like A lot of reasons.
• 27:35
  Speaker 0: yeah the DNA's pretty nerd By itself.
• 27:38
  Speaker 0: now Of course You could use like... You Could Use Any Drug Or Bad Things With Malicious Intent.
• 27:47
  Speaker 0: Yeah, what I was saying earlier right?
• 27:49
  Speaker 0: If you want to make DNA origami that kill a cell because you have specific antibodies in a specific shape.
• 27:57
  Speaker 0: You can do it!
• 27:59
  Speaker 0: It's like... Like you could go and make antibodies to kill people
• 28:03
  Speaker 0: Right?!
• 28:04
  Speaker 0: That is pretty much the same And don't think there are any... We're definitely not gonna see DNA origamis run away and... Drawing
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: on the world in cranes
• 28:12
  Speaker 0: Yeah.. It cant replicate itself.
• 28:16
  Speaker 0: So, and while that would be cool but it's just like DNA is around.
• 28:21
  Speaker 0: DNA does self-replicate right?
• 28:24
  Speaker 0: And we're all still here.
• 28:26
  Speaker 0: also there are a lot of things that can degrade the DNA.
• 28:29
  Speaker 0: I mean proteins eat DNA all the time Right?
• 28:33
  Speaker 0: It's the problem with RNA.
• 28:34
  Speaker 0: There is just RNAs everywhere.
• 28:37
  Speaker 0: DNA is same, there are DNAs in blood for example.
• 28:42
  Speaker 0: That's one of problems.
• 28:43
  Speaker 0: that DNA origami has drug delivery, is that it's not very stable.
• 28:48
  Speaker 0: Maybe one day we will actually be making nanorobots that are very smart at the nano scale and they can replicate.
• 28:56
  Speaker 0: then they can kill us all?
• 28:58
  Speaker 0: I mean i think uh... We're a long way from there but yeah.. I don't know if
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: you feel somewhat itchy or something under my
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: speed of nano robots.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: How far would you say are we from putting this aside?
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: From the evil nanorobots, but how far Would You Say Are We From Clinical Applications.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I'm
• 29:33
  Speaker 0: not sure i am The Right Person To Give A Timeline!
• 29:51
  Speaker 0: Really explain and really test everything, right?
• 29:55
  Speaker 0: When you have a new antibody or a new protein that you want to bring To do your first clinical trial You will have to give a lot of data like A LOT OF DATA.
• 30:06
  Speaker 0: And here people are gonna be even more skeptical Because you'll have sort-of new modality But it's not exactly anything super new.
• 30:16
  Speaker 0: but at the same time rightly so.
• 30:18
  Speaker 0: I guess people are conservative in these things.
• 30:21
  Speaker 0: they don't just go because it's a cool technology.
• 30:24
  Speaker 0: It is a good technology, i'm pretty sure that will work...I don't think we'll ever see.
• 30:28
  Speaker 0: you know like drugs then don't work because the were on top of DNA origami..i think there probably would always be drug but its not close and im not to this kind of thing.
• 30:38
  Speaker 0: where can tell how long it takes?
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: even if your are closed ,its hard too say but its'nt like crisper discovered the thing in bacteria and then ten years later you have an approved therapy kind
• 30:52
  Speaker 0: of.
• 30:52
  Speaker 0: no i mean I think it's there is also a lot less.
• 30:55
  Speaker 0: I don't want to call it hype but, change completely like how we treat certain diseases, right?
• 31:11
  Speaker 0: The anoregamy probably won't.
• 31:13
  Speaker 0: It will definitely improve especially on the safety side You know because if you can have a drive that actually just goes where you want it to go and it doesn't Go everywhere and gives you like infinite side effects...it Will make treating pretty much anything better.
• 31:30
  Speaker 0: but at the same time If you have a disease That you can't treat with.
• 31:36
  Speaker 0: You know, let's say... Let's pretend you can't treat it with an antibody.
• 31:38
  Speaker 0: DNA regi will not change that.
• 31:41
  Speaker 0: if you have like a disease That only-you can only treat by using cell therapy.
• 31:46
  Speaker 0: DNA Regi would probably not change there.
• 31:48
  Speaker 0: But this also has a lot less risks compared to something Like changing the genome of a person.
• 31:54
  Speaker 0: but once again The industry is pretty conservative.
• 31:56
  Speaker 0: so I do feel like sometimes this kind of like a bit different modalities, tools technology I'm not even sure how to call them are put all on the same level and it's like yeah they're not.
• 32:06
  Speaker 0: i mean cell therapy genome editing.
• 32:09
  Speaker 0: And you know having practically what is just like a better nanoparticle?
• 32:13
  Speaker 0: They're not all the same!
• 32:14
  Speaker 0: It's
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: all this stuff.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: that's a bit
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Amazing journey.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this, Marco.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: any closing remarks?
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Anybody of you
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: have another prediction question?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry for asking all these.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: do You think there will be a Nobel Prize waiting for one off the founders of the field?
• 32:34
  Speaker 0: So maybe
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: chemistry For example, yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: you Marco
• 32:38
  Speaker 0: no not me.
• 32:38
  Speaker 0: Literature for that
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: new secret.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe
• 32:43
  Speaker 0: i had to go with it or the piece one at some point.
• 32:46
  Speaker 0: Ned Sieman was the most likely candidate and in my opinion he should have gotten it, but he died a few years ago I think three years ago now or something on those lines.
• 32:55
  Speaker 0: And i don't know if i see as it is today someone that has done as much for the field That would get like another prize mostly because I feel like everything would be just compared to the fact okay yes But Sieman never got.
• 33:14
  Speaker 0: So, I don't know.
• 33:24
  Speaker 0: I don't think soon.
• 33:46
  Speaker 0: And i could be wrong, maybe it's this year?
• 33:48
  Speaker 0: This is the year... I hope so!
• 33:51
  Speaker 0: My old boss was often trying to lobby for a D&E origami Nobel Prize but idk.. I think its gonna take few years and also probably there will be something big that will be the base Because I think that now the person, because it's still a very small field.
• 34:13
  Speaker 0: There aren't that many labs...I know most of the labs and they don't have good memory so there are not as many labs but It would be cool to see!
• 34:24
  Speaker 0: Novel prizes always are
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: an accelerator
• 34:28
  Speaker 0: Exactly.
• 34:29
  Speaker 0: It's always good for the fields, so it would be amazing to see it.
• 34:32
  Speaker 0: Very
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: good closing argument at that point in time when The Nobel Prize will be there and associated with a breakthrough on technology.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: then we have talk again of course In another episode.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you for now Marco!
• 34:46
  Speaker 0: Thank
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: You!
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: This was the Bio Revolution Podcast.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Please feel free like us On our podcast platform Make comments on Science Tales.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have to repeat this every time I think.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: T-A-L-E... It's important because
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: people will make it till the end and you know like a running
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: gag or something.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: So comments are science tales dot com.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: We're in the midst of preparing for next episode!
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Please stay tuned Thank You.