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Filling the Void: What Comes After "Biblical Manhood"? · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this
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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer. I'm joined
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Speaker 1: by doctor Ashish Pharma and we're going to continue our
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Speaker 1: conversation about biblical manhood today. And today we're really going
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Speaker 1: to be talking about, given that there is no thing
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Speaker 1: that we can identify as biblical manhood within scripture, how
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Speaker 1: do we encourage men to be male disciples of Christ?
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Speaker 2: Like?
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Speaker 1: What does that look like? So if we're taking something
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Speaker 1: away there is no biblical manhood, we probably should put
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Speaker 1: something back in it same place, and so that's what
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Speaker 1: we're going to be trying to do in this episode. So, ah,
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Speaker 1: thanks again for being here.
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Speaker 2: Man, great to be here, and a fair impulse. We
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Speaker 2: take away we should fill that void.
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Speaker 1: It feels like we should. Yeah, we don't want. We
1:12
Speaker 1: don't want men just run around they like, oh good,
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Speaker 1: I have no boundaries. It's probably not the natural state.
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Speaker 1: I feel like we don't have to do much on
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Speaker 1: you know, is there a biblical manhood idea? I feel
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Speaker 1: like we've covered this an awful lot and the difficulties
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Speaker 1: of sort of parsing out between you know, when we
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Speaker 1: look at Abraham's life or something like that, we look
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Speaker 1: at Jesus's life, we look at any of these characters
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Speaker 1: in scripture, are you know what we're seeing? It's going
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Speaker 1: to be impossible for us to distinguish, and I'll use
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Speaker 1: the impossible language. It's going to be impossible for us
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Speaker 1: to distinguish between what is faithful behavior and what is
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Speaker 1: masculine behavior. And so I would just argue that what
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Speaker 1: we're really seeing in scripture is not presentations of masculinity.
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Speaker 1: What we're seeing are presentations of faith fullness embodied in
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Speaker 1: male and female bodies. That's sort of the way I
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Speaker 1: think about it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I tend to default to that as well,
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Speaker 2: unless there's a distinct reason given to guide us to
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Speaker 2: think more specifically, which I don't really see very often, right,
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Speaker 2: Like if there's a passage saying fathers be like this, Okay,
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Speaker 2: I get it, there's specificity here. But I think another
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Speaker 2: point that's worth making in that it can be easy.
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Speaker 2: We've talked about this at other times, but with Greek
2:33
Speaker 2: and Hebrew being gendered languages, we have to be careful
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Speaker 2: to not read into the fact that, you know, for instance,
2:40
Speaker 2: in the Greek, if it says adel foss and a
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Speaker 2: del Foy brother and brothers, that it's necessarily trying to
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Speaker 2: make a gendered claim. I think this is something that
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Speaker 2: we in languages like English that don't have gendered languages
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Speaker 2: struggle with more than those who come from gender languages
3:02
Speaker 2: where they tend to understand more that you know, sometimes
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Speaker 2: a thing is just a thing and it has a
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Speaker 2: gendered ending for grammatical reasons, not for social reasons or
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Speaker 2: theological reasons. So when when Paul's speaking and he says
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Speaker 2: a del foy too often, I've seen where people will
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Speaker 2: take that to me and just he's only talking to
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Speaker 2: the men. It's brothers. Yeah, when the reality of gender
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Speaker 2: languages is is that for whatever reason, historically, and this
3:35
Speaker 2: is case the case in all the gender languages that
3:38
Speaker 2: I know or know of. Perhaps there's others that are
3:41
Speaker 2: not like this, But when it when it gives you
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Speaker 2: a plural of mixed company, it just uses a masculine plural, right.
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Speaker 2: So it's things like that that we have to be
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Speaker 2: attentive to as well, when we make the kind of
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Speaker 2: claim that someone could say, well, no, look that's a
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Speaker 2: that's a gendered term right there. Well, well, okay, it's
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Speaker 2: a gender term because every term in that language is gendered.
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Speaker 2: A table is gendered, a tree is gendered. But that
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Speaker 2: doesn't mean you look at the table, you know, in
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Speaker 2: Spanish as a girl. It's just a table, and no
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Speaker 2: one looks at it does anything but a table anyway, yep.
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Speaker 1: And we do have some of those conventions in English,
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Speaker 1: although they're a little more colloquial. Usually for the end
4:23
Speaker 1: of my teaching career, I got more careful about using
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Speaker 1: the word guys if I was referring to a mixed company, right,
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Speaker 1: guy is technically we're usually used in a for a male's,
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Speaker 1: but I would use it as sort of that collective
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Speaker 1: y'all right, And so I got more careful about doing that,
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Speaker 1: right with the non gendered languages. Usually what we end
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Speaker 1: up doing is like she or he or he or
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Speaker 1: she or male or female, Like we'll list both if
4:55
Speaker 1: we want to make it clear that we're meaning both.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, and gendered languages. I'm there was a study
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Speaker 1: done on the prophetic books that actually looked at this
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Speaker 1: and demonstrated that when the masculine forms of the Hebrew
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Speaker 1: are used, so Hebrew has male female gender in the grammar,
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Speaker 1: when the masculine forms of those words were used to
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Speaker 1: refer to groups, it was clear that there were women
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Speaker 1: included in those groups. And so we actually have some
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Speaker 1: good exegetical evidence to suggest that this is what's happening,
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Speaker 1: at least in the Old Testament, and I would argue
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Speaker 1: it's the same in the New. It's hard to argue that,
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Speaker 1: adel Foy. In your example, Brothers, when Paul is writing
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Speaker 1: to the churches, for instance, he's not singling out all
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Speaker 1: the males who are involved in that church or only
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Speaker 1: addressing all the males that are involved in that church.
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Speaker 1: He's using that term collectively to refer to everyone in
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Speaker 1: that congregation. See. I think it's a good point, but
5:58
Speaker 1: that is the kiss.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, if that is the case, the question before us,
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Speaker 2: I think doesn't change. And that's what is the text doing.
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Speaker 2: That is addressing men where they are, right, which I
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Speaker 2: think is a different question than does the text specifically
6:18
Speaker 2: address this idea of masculinity. We've said as a general answer, no,
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Speaker 2: it does not. But that does not mean the same
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Speaker 2: thing as the text isn't talking to men. Of course,
6:32
Speaker 2: is talking to men and it's talking to women, And
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Speaker 2: there's ways in which it's talking to us both at
6:36
Speaker 2: the same time that can be directed towards us. And
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Speaker 2: I think that's really important to recognize that when we
6:44
Speaker 2: mentioned paradigms in one of the previous episode, that that's
6:49
Speaker 2: a good way to think through this. Right, that all
6:51
Speaker 2: of these sorts of declarations and storytellings and letters and
6:55
Speaker 2: so on and so forth that are going on in scripture,
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Speaker 2: they belong to a people in a place, and they
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Speaker 2: take the shape of the people in a place.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: The languages that are used, I would argue, Hebrew and Greek,
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Speaker 2: there's nothing inherently special about them. In some theological way,
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Speaker 2: they reflect the languages that are present and the modes
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Speaker 2: therefore within which people speak. Right. It's sort of the
7:17
Speaker 2: idea that John Calvin he says that when when God
7:21
Speaker 2: speaks to us, he speaks to us as a parent
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Speaker 2: to a child. And what he meant by that was
7:28
Speaker 2: not apparently sort of pedantic kind of a way in
7:31
Speaker 2: that particular instance. What he meant was, when a parent
7:36
Speaker 2: has to explain something, you have to think, Okay, how
7:40
Speaker 2: does an eight year old understand this concept?
7:43
Speaker 1: Right?
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Speaker 2: I can't answer this eight year old the way that
7:45
Speaker 2: I would my graduate students. It's not going to work.
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Speaker 2: Or my eight year old just look at me and
7:51
Speaker 2: she quite literally will say huh. So you got to
7:57
Speaker 2: think about those sorts of things, right, And so John
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Speaker 2: Calvin's point was that when God's talking to us, he's
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Speaker 2: always speaking in a way that's accommodating to the fact
8:05
Speaker 2: of our position. Right, We're not God. Okay, so how
8:07
Speaker 2: does God explain this thing? Well, you know, it was like,
8:11
Speaker 2: what I'm like with you is like a hen who
8:15
Speaker 2: nestles you under her wing, right, a gendered comment, but
8:19
Speaker 2: not a gendered meaning per se.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: And I think that's important to recognize here that because
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Speaker 2: that's what the text is doing. The paradigm's idea for
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Speaker 2: us is to say we now live in particular places
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Speaker 2: in particular times and social settings, and we can't just
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Speaker 2: simply say that it's an easy move to say, Okay, well,
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Speaker 2: we understand in agriculturist society, for instance, we understand a
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Speaker 2: situation in which cities are themselves the entirety of a stronghold,
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Speaker 2: and cities have these walls like we have to begin
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Speaker 2: to think paradigmatically, how does that space intersect with our space?
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Speaker 1: And that's a challenge. Yeah, I mean, I think we
9:00
Speaker 1: had this conversation last time, you know, where you had
9:03
Speaker 1: brought up the notion of the bride of Christ, you know,
9:06
Speaker 1: the church being the bride of Christ. You have this
9:09
Speaker 1: in John's letters, I believe it's third John, where it's
9:12
Speaker 1: written to the elect lady, and it's clear that it's
9:16
Speaker 1: referring to the church as a whole. Again, we don't
9:20
Speaker 1: take those references as saying, okay, what does it mean
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Speaker 1: for a man to be in a feminine institution or
9:27
Speaker 1: something like that. Right, we recognize these for what they are.
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Speaker 1: They are really powerful metaphors and ways of thinking through
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Speaker 1: the relationship between Christ and Church that should have an
9:41
Speaker 1: impact on us, should change the paradigms within which we think.
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Speaker 1: But they aren't ascribing some sort of femininity to the
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Speaker 1: church as a whole, as if that were clear. So
9:54
Speaker 1: even if we were to argue that, the next logical
9:57
Speaker 1: question this is where we run up against it with
9:59
Speaker 1: masculine as well. It's like, okay, if we say, well,
10:02
Speaker 1: you know, being the bride of Christ implies of femininity. Okay,
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Speaker 1: what is that femininity? It's never defined in the biblical text.
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Speaker 1: You don't see it, you know, shaped anywhere. Really, even
10:15
Speaker 1: if you went back into Proverbs, which might be you know,
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Speaker 1: one of the logical places to go if you're looking
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Speaker 1: for feminine images, you have lady Wisdom, Lady Folly, you
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Speaker 1: have the Proverbs thirty one woman. But arguably, I would
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Speaker 1: say those images in those texts are really more inclined
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Speaker 1: toward wisdom right and helping us understand the character of
10:39
Speaker 1: wisdom and what wisdom entails than they are describing women
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Speaker 1: specifically or some sort of notion of the feminine specifically.
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Speaker 1: It would be foolish to think that, for instance, when
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Speaker 1: a man becomes wise, that automatically we should have to
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Speaker 1: ascribe some sort of femininity to him. You've got all
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Speaker 1: these sort of characters and uses of different gendered language
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Speaker 1: as we've been talking about, but also these male and
11:09
Speaker 1: female symbols that are being used all over the place.
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Speaker 1: And I think part of my issue as I was
11:17
Speaker 1: reading through a lot of the masculinity literature, is just
11:20
Speaker 1: we don't see people applying those in the same way
11:23
Speaker 1: as they seek to apply other areas. And so they
11:27
Speaker 1: want to They would not have a problem saying no, no, no,
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Speaker 1: men could be wise, and yet how do you wrestle
11:33
Speaker 1: them with lady wisdom? Right? Why isn't this a feminine characteristic?
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Speaker 1: Given that what Proverbs does with that as lady wisdom
11:43
Speaker 1: throughout the book. But we don't wrestle with those things.
11:47
Speaker 1: What we want to do is we want to pull
11:49
Speaker 1: what we want to pull out of this. And when
11:51
Speaker 1: we're saying that there isn't a biblical manhood in scripture,
11:54
Speaker 1: that's really what we're talking about, This idea of parsing
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Speaker 1: these things out, distinguishing between faithful characteristics like wisdom, like obedience,
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Speaker 1: like subjection to one another. These aren't masculine or feminine characteristics.
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Speaker 1: They're just characteristics, and men and women may embody those differently.
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Speaker 1: I think that's why you have variation. For instance, in
12:22
Speaker 1: the instructions to husbands versus wives, because there was something
12:26
Speaker 1: going on in that setting that made that difference in
12:29
Speaker 1: instruction in Ephesians five pertinent. Right, you see it there.
12:36
Speaker 1: So there are differences, but that doesn't necessarily mean that
12:39
Speaker 1: there's one way of doing it that means you're means
12:43
Speaker 1: it's masculine. One way of doing it means it's feminine.
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Speaker 1: So I'll leave it there.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's instructive. The way that you
12:52
Speaker 2: describe things, that's really instructive. I want to look at
12:56
Speaker 2: both of those instances, Proverbs and Efesians. Yeah, in the
13:01
Speaker 2: Ephesians setting, or sorry, let's cover with the prophets. In
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Speaker 2: the Proverb setting, the narrative form really does matter, and
13:08
Speaker 2: the narrative form or framework that it's set in. As
13:11
Speaker 2: the Book of Proverbs begin begins with a father talking
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Speaker 2: to his son.
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Speaker 1: That's right.
13:16
Speaker 2: And as a father talking to his son, he now
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Speaker 2: lays before him the path of are you following lady
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Speaker 2: wisdom or lady folly? Here's the direction. Here's what the
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Speaker 2: direction of lady wisdom leads you to. Here's what the
13:30
Speaker 2: direction of lady folly leads you to. And then the
13:33
Speaker 2: climax of the book, or perhaps the conclusion of the book,
13:35
Speaker 2: depending how you want to see it. Proverbs thirty one,
13:38
Speaker 2: you have the woman we often think of as the
13:42
Speaker 2: virtuous wife. The choice, the choices are all dictated by
13:49
Speaker 2: that narrative form. One can very easily imagine the setting
13:54
Speaker 2: of the book being a mother talking to her daughter,
13:57
Speaker 2: and the moment you have a mother talking to her daughter,
13:59
Speaker 2: it's now now here's whatever? That what's the equivalent sir,
14:05
Speaker 2: sir folly and sir wisdom? Because how you would do
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Speaker 2: it right? And then the end would be the virtuous
14:13
Speaker 2: husband right? The idea is precisely so. In other words,
14:20
Speaker 2: the narrative form is setting things up as a particular
14:24
Speaker 2: conversation that you're entering into, and that what that's what
14:28
Speaker 2: dictates the other parts of it and to why they're
14:30
Speaker 2: told in the way that they are. And to over
14:33
Speaker 2: extend that creates more problems than it does solutions.
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Speaker 1: Correct if we if we do.
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Speaker 2: Over extend it, a significant question comes up. So are
14:44
Speaker 2: the proverbs not for girls? Can a father or a
14:48
Speaker 2: mother not teach their daughter? You know we both have
14:53
Speaker 2: daughters and we both have sons. Right, you have ason,
14:56
Speaker 2: I have sons. Are we only allowed to teach the
15:00
Speaker 2: proverbs to the boys, not to the girls like that,
15:02
Speaker 2: that's silliness, right, right, And when I'm talking to my girls,
15:07
Speaker 2: it's important for them to understand the form of it
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Speaker 2: lest they think I don't am I chasing? Am I
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Speaker 2: chasing this woman who's described in these very negatively charged terms.
15:20
Speaker 2: I know I'm not. Just of course, we understand paradigmatically,
15:26
Speaker 2: there's a parallel at play to how this applies or
15:29
Speaker 2: how we work this out when talking to our daughters. Right, yeah, well,
15:35
Speaker 2: the Ephesian situation, as you point out, we tend to
15:38
Speaker 2: read it, as we said previously, from our own social setting,
15:44
Speaker 2: which is in and of itself not wrong. Right, that's
15:46
Speaker 2: where we have to read it from, and that's where
15:48
Speaker 2: we need to get meeting. But we forget there's a gap, right,
15:51
Speaker 2: We forget that there's paradigms that need intersect or, as
15:54
Speaker 2: Godamer said, horizons that need to be fused. And we
15:57
Speaker 2: now read it as a straightforward letter in a way
16:01
Speaker 2: that's written specifically to our social setting. But what if
16:05
Speaker 2: Paul is writing from a place where there are gross
16:09
Speaker 2: abuses and how husbands are treating their wives there are
16:13
Speaker 2: gross abuses within which a husband sees himself lording over
16:18
Speaker 2: his wife. And this is far from rhetorical. We actually
16:21
Speaker 2: have a lot of historical data to say that is
16:24
Speaker 2: in fact the situation then, right, Not that I'm commending
16:29
Speaker 2: it for all of its successes, but if you do
16:33
Speaker 2: want a picture of it. The HBO show rome very
16:37
Speaker 2: good at showing this heavily masculine oriented environment and the
16:42
Speaker 2: problems that it creates, not just for women but all
16:46
Speaker 2: men who are not in upper echelons of society. Right.
16:51
Speaker 2: And if Paul's now writing in this environment saying, hey,
16:53
Speaker 2: husband's let's recalibrate, and it's especially more important for him
16:59
Speaker 2: to recalib bury for the husbands there than it is
17:02
Speaker 2: for the wives. Right, Yes, but if anything to the wives,
17:06
Speaker 2: it's sort of the corrective and the settling ephesians of
17:10
Speaker 2: you might be inclined to work off of the default
17:12
Speaker 2: of the abuses that are around you. And when I
17:16
Speaker 2: tell you submit to your husbands, I don't think that's
17:20
Speaker 2: a completely objectivized term of This is what women do.
17:26
Speaker 2: They are the submitters and husbands are not the submitters.
17:28
Speaker 2: As we've already said that passage begins with submit to
17:31
Speaker 2: one another, to everyone at a church. But if we're
17:35
Speaker 2: in that sort of abusive setting, it makes sense that
17:39
Speaker 2: the women are pushing against that. So now what Paul
17:44
Speaker 2: says is, wives submit to your husbands to set up
17:46
Speaker 2: the reality of I'm now resetting the husband's expectations in
17:51
Speaker 2: a way in which he's now thinking of himself relative
17:53
Speaker 2: to Christ. And I think for us that's what's instructive
17:56
Speaker 2: here now to think about. If we're using these horizons,
18:01
Speaker 2: what could it mean for men today. Let's really think
18:04
Speaker 2: about the image of Christ that's commended to us and
18:09
Speaker 2: how that contrasts with the sort of masculinity that's put
18:13
Speaker 2: forward to us as the tough guy, the guy who
18:19
Speaker 2: is in charge, right, yeah, Because I think we can
18:22
Speaker 2: look at Jesus and say, yeah, in a real sense,
18:24
Speaker 2: he was in charge, and yet nothing about that looks
18:27
Speaker 2: the way that we expect.
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Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting too in that Ephesians five passage.
18:34
Speaker 1: The way I think of it is once the Christian
18:38
Speaker 1: men begin to exercise their authority like Christ exercised his authority,
18:45
Speaker 1: the women are now going to have a choice. And
18:47
Speaker 1: I think what Paul is partly resisting there is We
18:50
Speaker 1: don't want someone else to become the domineering party. We
18:53
Speaker 1: don't just want to flip these two things so that
18:56
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the man is being told no,
18:58
Speaker 1: act like Christ, and the woman says, oh good, here's
19:01
Speaker 1: my opening. I'm going to take over. He's pushing toward
19:05
Speaker 1: mutual submission, and the woman's role in that is to
19:08
Speaker 1: continue to submit to the authority of the husband as
19:12
Speaker 1: it's exercised with that image of Christ in mind. And
19:18
Speaker 1: so the goal isn't to reverse the power relations within
19:22
Speaker 1: the household. The goal is to create a situation in
19:27
Speaker 1: which mutual submission makes sense and can actually be enacted.
19:33
Speaker 1: And so we see even there this idea that mutual
19:37
Speaker 1: submission coming about, and you can when we think about
19:40
Speaker 1: it like that, which I actually think is an appropriate
19:43
Speaker 1: way to think about it, given the historical background and
19:46
Speaker 1: some of the dynamics that we read about in the
19:50
Speaker 1: Parents Children text that comes in chapter six, as well
19:53
Speaker 1: as the master bond Servant text that comes in chapter six,
19:58
Speaker 1: I think when we read it like that, now, when
20:00
Speaker 1: we fast forward into today's world, what we have is
20:04
Speaker 1: a really instructive lesson of sitting back and saying, how
20:08
Speaker 1: is it that I, as a husband exers do things
20:15
Speaker 1: for my family right, for the good of my family,
20:21
Speaker 1: and that may not always mean that I am making
20:24
Speaker 1: the final decision on things. That may not always mean
20:27
Speaker 1: that I am you know, you name it. Some of
20:29
Speaker 1: these things we've gone through in the different biblical manhood conceptions. Right.
20:34
Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean that I'm bold all the time.
20:36
Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean that I'm you know, constantly you know,
20:39
Speaker 1: pushing things forward and I'm like this sort of manly presence.
20:43
Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean that I only stay in spaces
20:45
Speaker 1: that I'm comfortable in and I never go to the
20:47
Speaker 1: nail salon of my family, you know, like whatever these
20:50
Speaker 1: things are, right, it doesn't necessarily mean that. What it
20:56
Speaker 1: means is that I'm constantly looking to do good for
20:59
Speaker 1: my family period. And that is what it kind of
21:03
Speaker 1: ends up looking like for us to be ahead like Christ,
21:08
Speaker 1: is that we're constantly doing this for another entity, for
21:12
Speaker 1: another person. Christ didn't come just for fun to hang
21:16
Speaker 1: in the cross. He came for his people. He did
21:19
Speaker 1: this for the body of Christ. And so I think
21:21
Speaker 1: there's an underlying logic there that we don't want to miss. Right,
21:26
Speaker 1: And then as wives you have the same paradigm. Now,
21:31
Speaker 1: do I think that some of that?
21:35
Speaker 2: Do?
21:35
Speaker 1: I think some of this relates to Biblical manhood. I
21:41
Speaker 1: tend to sort of want to say, of course, there's
21:45
Speaker 1: always carryover in everything that we read, Right, it'd be
21:48
Speaker 1: like me saying no Proverbs thirty one doesn't have anything
21:51
Speaker 1: to say to men. That's not true, right, It has
21:55
Speaker 1: something to say to men. But I think this is
21:58
Speaker 1: specific to husbands and lives. It's it's addressing that specific relationship,
22:04
Speaker 1: and anything we draw out of that really does need
22:07
Speaker 1: to be recontextualized. It needs to be the pattern that's
22:10
Speaker 1: pulled out. So we begin to understand, Okay, if I'm
22:14
Speaker 1: a single man who's operating a business, what does this
22:18
Speaker 1: really look like for me to uh interact as Christ
22:22
Speaker 1: would interact in this setting? And how does this text
22:26
Speaker 1: inform what I'm doing over here? Doesn't inform what I'm
22:28
Speaker 1: doing over here? Of course it can, But I don't
22:32
Speaker 1: think that's a stable sort of here's the way men act,
22:35
Speaker 1: here's the way women act. Now go and do likewise?
22:39
Speaker 1: Hope that Hope that makes sense for folks.
22:43
Speaker 2: I think so, I think what you're describing as sort
22:45
Speaker 2: of an informal negotiation right, where it's a it's a
22:48
Speaker 2: recognition within a setting. So for the first part of
22:52
Speaker 2: your comment of what can I do for the sake
22:55
Speaker 2: of my family, Well, that's a recognition of needs, it's
22:59
Speaker 2: a recognition of abilities, a recognition of what you need
23:02
Speaker 2: to work on.
23:02
Speaker 1: Right.
23:03
Speaker 2: It doesn't just mean well I only do things according
23:05
Speaker 2: to my strengths, but there's a recognition perhaps of you know,
23:09
Speaker 2: if you have two partners and one of them is
23:11
Speaker 2: able to do one thing better than the other, and
23:15
Speaker 2: there's an informal negotiation of well, this is your strength,
23:18
Speaker 2: you do that and I'll do this. It's sort of
23:21
Speaker 2: the mentality that's at play because it's a sense of
23:24
Speaker 2: the very fact of my presence in the environment, is
23:27
Speaker 2: my receiving as an identity marker who I am from
23:31
Speaker 2: my family.
23:33
Speaker 1: Right.
23:34
Speaker 2: For instance, I'm not a father if I don't have kids. Right,
23:39
Speaker 2: there is no husband that doesn't have a wife. There
23:42
Speaker 2: is no wife that doesn't have a husband. There's no
23:44
Speaker 2: mother that right. So the the very claim on my
23:50
Speaker 2: being comes from that setting. And now it's a reciprocal
23:57
Speaker 2: sort of thing of I get who I am from it,
23:59
Speaker 2: and then I give back to it so that I'm
24:01
Speaker 2: not merely defined by who I am visa via person,
24:05
Speaker 2: but also now what I'm doing in that particular setting.
24:08
Speaker 1: Right.
24:10
Speaker 2: In my case, I'm certainly not the cook that you've
24:14
Speaker 2: described from some of these shows that are quite out there,
24:18
Speaker 2: and the ability these people have to just I've tasted
24:21
Speaker 2: that and I know what's in there, and I'm gonna like,
24:23
Speaker 2: that's never been precisely me. But I think I'm a
24:26
Speaker 2: decent cook, yeah, And so it's I can use that
24:32
Speaker 2: within the environment. But I also know that that means
24:34
Speaker 2: sometimes what I think of as being a decent cook
24:38
Speaker 2: is patterned to my particular tastes, right, and that doesn't
24:43
Speaker 2: necessarily match what the kids are doing. Right. So now
24:45
Speaker 2: there's that sort of in the sense that I received
24:48
Speaker 2: myself from them. Can I be attentive to it so
24:51
Speaker 2: that I say, obviously I can't please all four kids
24:55
Speaker 2: at the same time, but can I adjust recipes in
25:00
Speaker 2: a way that meets them and serves them? Right? I
25:03
Speaker 2: think that's the sort of reciprocal mutuality that you know
25:08
Speaker 2: is a is a learning process, which means it's not
25:12
Speaker 2: just what I'm good at, it's what I have to
25:13
Speaker 2: grow in right. I've been learning recently how to braid
25:18
Speaker 2: my daughter's hairs to help them in that matter, and
25:22
Speaker 2: it's it. You know, I've done it a number of
25:26
Speaker 2: times at this point. It's way better than that first time.
25:28
Speaker 2: The first time actually made my daughters laugh, you know.
25:34
Speaker 2: But that's part of the process of, right, what do
25:36
Speaker 2: I need to be in this environment? What I needed
25:38
Speaker 2: to be was to be someone who can learn to
25:40
Speaker 2: help braid my daughter's hair.
25:42
Speaker 1: Right.
25:43
Speaker 2: And that goes to me if we want to talk
25:47
Speaker 2: about what is masculine, it's it's the willingness and ability
25:51
Speaker 2: to step into that space and say, what do I
25:53
Speaker 2: need to me? That's the pattern of the Jesus, who
25:56
Speaker 2: was in the form of God, thought it not robbery
25:58
Speaker 2: to be equal with God, but took the form of
26:00
Speaker 2: a servant, but not just the form of a servant,
26:03
Speaker 2: humbled himself all the way to the point of the cross.
26:06
Speaker 2: Right to use a Philippians two dynamic and right before
26:10
Speaker 2: that is when Paul tells us, imitate me, as imitate Christ. Right,
26:13
Speaker 2: it's this notion of what do I need to be
26:15
Speaker 2: in this environment? Yes, but there's no pre set what
26:19
Speaker 2: that is? What that is in one household is very
26:21
Speaker 2: different than another household. And by the way, that's going
26:24
Speaker 2: to be very different if we're talking about sort of
26:26
Speaker 2: a traditional Western household of two parents and two and
26:29
Speaker 2: a half kids, whatever a half kid is, versus say
26:33
Speaker 2: an Indian household where you have three generations living together
26:37
Speaker 2: and perhaps uncles and aunts and cousins in the same house. Right,
26:41
Speaker 2: that's going to change the dynamic of what does it
26:43
Speaker 2: mean to live in this space.
26:45
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's interesting. We talked a little bit
26:47
Speaker 1: about rhinesia or art on one of the previous episodes,
26:50
Speaker 1: and this is really where I think the constructive aspect
26:52
Speaker 1: comes in. So I was thinking about how to explain
26:56
Speaker 1: this and that you know, I grew up in the
26:59
Speaker 1: era of Michael ju and you often hear about what
27:01
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan does. You could watch Steph Curry is another example. Right,
27:05
Speaker 1: he shoots like some thousand balls before practice or something
27:09
Speaker 1: like that. Right, Like, these guys are putting in the work.
27:11
Speaker 1: And you can name any any big athlete, you could
27:15
Speaker 1: go to, any ballet dancer, you could go to any
27:18
Speaker 1: anybody who's at the top of their profession. Right, they're
27:21
Speaker 1: putting in the reps, Right, they're just doing the work.
27:25
Speaker 1: And so if you want to be at the top
27:27
Speaker 1: of that profession, if you want to be a great
27:29
Speaker 1: basketball player, yes there's some genetics involved, right, but Muggsy Bogues,
27:34
Speaker 1: who is the shortest basketball player I think ever to play,
27:38
Speaker 1: sort of buckets yeah, professionally, right, So I mean it's
27:43
Speaker 1: not all genetics. It's not like you have to be
27:45
Speaker 1: a seven footer to play basketball. You can actually get
27:48
Speaker 1: good and play, but it requires work. And so one
27:52
Speaker 1: thing one might do is you go out and you'd
27:54
Speaker 1: emulate one of these people who are at the top
27:56
Speaker 1: of their profession. See this all the time in business
27:58
Speaker 1: leaders right, you buy the oh what what are the
28:01
Speaker 1: you know, the richest people on the planet, the most
28:03
Speaker 1: successful people in the planet do before ten am, right,
28:06
Speaker 1: and there's you know, you can emulate what it is
28:09
Speaker 1: that they do. And the attempt there is to say
28:12
Speaker 1: I want what they have, and so I need to
28:16
Speaker 1: do what they do. Right. This is basically what na
28:22
Speaker 1: Gerard was arguing. He's saying that a lot of times
28:25
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is we think we want an object, right,
28:30
Speaker 1: we want the money, we want the success, we want
28:33
Speaker 1: the power, we want the position, whatever that is, but
28:37
Speaker 1: he said that that object gets subtly like displaced by
28:40
Speaker 1: a subject, the person who already has all of these things, right,
28:46
Speaker 1: So the person who has the money, the person who
28:48
Speaker 1: has the success, the person who has the position. We're
28:51
Speaker 1: emulating them, and as we emulate them, we take up
28:56
Speaker 1: their patterns of life. We pick up some you know,
29:00
Speaker 1: we look and see what kind of character traits do
29:02
Speaker 1: they have. We think about their ambitions and we say, Okay,
29:05
Speaker 1: if they had that ambition, I should have that ambition.
29:08
Speaker 1: And we're surrendering our own sort of thought process about
29:12
Speaker 1: what our lives should be and where we'd like to
29:13
Speaker 1: go and how we want to get there. And we're
29:16
Speaker 1: substituting any independent thoughts we might have with what other
29:19
Speaker 1: people have already done, because we want to go where
29:22
Speaker 1: they've already been. We want to be where they already are.
29:27
Speaker 1: This to me is sort of what we're doing when
29:28
Speaker 1: we're following Christ. We're looking at Jesus and we're saying, Okay,
29:33
Speaker 1: my ambitions should no longer be my ambitions. I should
29:35
Speaker 1: no longer determine my ambitions. I need to surrender my
29:39
Speaker 1: ambitions to the ambition of Christ. So what are some
29:42
Speaker 1: of those ambitions. Well, as you just said, you know,
29:45
Speaker 1: Philippians too, right, the equality with God was not something
29:51
Speaker 1: to be grasped. Many in your Testament commentators would say
29:54
Speaker 1: that what that really means is that he didn't see
29:57
Speaker 1: equality with God to be something that was kept for
29:59
Speaker 1: his own advantage. And so he's going to give this
30:03
Speaker 1: away and come down and humble himself for a people
30:07
Speaker 1: who are ultimately going to be part of the church. Right,
30:12
Speaker 1: He's giving himself up for the body of Christ. Right, Okay,
30:17
Speaker 1: So if that's the ambition, that sort of changes things
30:20
Speaker 1: for all of us, If this becomes our overriding sort
30:24
Speaker 1: of point of being here, that we are to glorify God,
30:29
Speaker 1: that we are to give ourselves away for to build
30:32
Speaker 1: the Body of Christ, that we are to have compassion
30:35
Speaker 1: on the lost, we are to you know, you could
30:38
Speaker 1: name a million different things that Christ did, none of
30:41
Speaker 1: which are male or female, all of which are uniquely
30:45
Speaker 1: Christ Like. That's what I think we're doing now as
30:49
Speaker 1: we go about doing that. Is there a way that
30:51
Speaker 1: as a male, you know, who has a particular education,
30:55
Speaker 1: who has a particular socioeconomic background, who has a particular
30:58
Speaker 1: position within society that I'm going to enact that differently
31:02
Speaker 1: than someone else, absolutely, right, those are going to take
31:07
Speaker 1: on very particular instantiations, right the way I what happens
31:13
Speaker 1: when I am imitating Christ is going to look different
31:16
Speaker 1: than what happens when Paul is imitating Christ. Right, we
31:20
Speaker 1: already see these distinctions between like Peter and Paul. Peter
31:24
Speaker 1: takes along a married wife, Paul doesn't. Right, But Paul's
31:29
Speaker 1: rationale for not doing so has absolutely nothing to do
31:33
Speaker 1: with a disagreement on whether you should or shouldn't be married.
31:36
Speaker 1: It's for the sake of the Gospel. Like, he's doing
31:39
Speaker 1: these things because he's operating under what I would call
31:43
Speaker 1: theologic right. He's thinking theologically about what he's doing, what
31:48
Speaker 1: rights he should or shouldn't pick up, based on whether
31:51
Speaker 1: or not he feels those will advance the Gospel, whether
31:53
Speaker 1: they will help the Body of Christ grow, whether they
31:56
Speaker 1: will cause someone to stumble. These are all decisions that
31:59
Speaker 1: he's making. If you read his epistles, it's really difficult
32:01
Speaker 1: to miss. Right. So, what he's doing is he's trying
32:07
Speaker 1: to emulate Jesus's self sacrifice and self giving as Paul
32:13
Speaker 1: the apostle, Right, and so you and I would do that.
32:17
Speaker 1: We try to emulate Christ as James, as Ashesh as whomever.
32:25
Speaker 1: These are not male female, They are individual, right, we
32:31
Speaker 1: do it as individuals, and we do it within the
32:34
Speaker 1: roles and positions that God places us in. So that's
32:38
Speaker 1: sort of the constructive way I think to think about
32:40
Speaker 1: this is we're looking at Jesus not as man, as male,
32:44
Speaker 1: I should say, certainly not as masculine, but we're looking
32:48
Speaker 1: at him as human and recognizing that he is the
32:53
Speaker 1: one that gives us right ambition. He's the one that
32:55
Speaker 1: sets right agenda. He's the one that points toward the
32:58
Speaker 1: right trajectory, and then we follow after him, imitate him,
33:03
Speaker 1: and allow that imitation to begin to shift and change
33:06
Speaker 1: the way we think about what we should do, what
33:09
Speaker 1: we can do, how we can do that. All those
33:13
Speaker 1: different areas.
33:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're pointing out Peter and Paul in
33:19
Speaker 2: parallel is instructive to the difference, right that, Yeah, they're both,
33:26
Speaker 2: they're both men. What that looks like for them and
33:30
Speaker 2: their settings is different precisely because of this again informal
33:34
Speaker 2: negotiation of them in their places. That's true on the
33:38
Speaker 2: marital front, where Peter's married and Paul is not. It's true. Apparently,
33:44
Speaker 2: from as best we can tell their role within the church,
33:47
Speaker 2: Peter seems to be more centrally located, whereas Paul is
33:52
Speaker 2: constantly on the move.
33:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:56
Speaker 2: I don't know that we can look at either one
33:57
Speaker 2: of them as this is the model. They're both models
34:02
Speaker 2: in their own way. If we can begin to extract
34:04
Speaker 2: what is it about their behavior, what is it about
34:08
Speaker 2: their movement their lack of movement that is faithful And
34:12
Speaker 2: it's the idea of faithfulness that's a play, right, It's
34:14
Speaker 2: the ability to recognize what is needed of them. Paul
34:18
Speaker 2: recognized what it was needed of him was to push
34:21
Speaker 2: the boundary of this gospel that began among the Jews,
34:25
Speaker 2: to take it among the gentiles. What tradition tells us
34:29
Speaker 2: that someone like Thomas pushed it in another way, right,
34:33
Speaker 2: he pushed it outside the boundary. If Paul was within
34:35
Speaker 2: the Roman Empire, Thomas pushed it outside the Roman Empire.
34:39
Speaker 2: We see someone like John, who seems to be the
34:41
Speaker 2: one disciple or apostle who didn't die early from some
34:45
Speaker 2: form of martyrdom, to someone who becomes apparently an elder
34:52
Speaker 2: almost to the end of that first century AD. I
34:57
Speaker 2: don't know that we can look at any one of
34:58
Speaker 2: them more faithful than the others, right apart from an
35:04
Speaker 2: individual moment, right, we can think of the Jerusalem Council
35:07
Speaker 2: where Paul had to call out Peter. Yes, but as
35:12
Speaker 2: a general trajectory of their roles, it was them recognizing
35:17
Speaker 2: where they were. And we haven't yet gotten into the
35:20
Speaker 2: fact that the New Testament mentions local churches.
35:23
Speaker 1: Right.
35:23
Speaker 2: There's Timothy, there's Titus, who apparently are commended in particular
35:26
Speaker 2: church environments. There are men and there are women who
35:29
Speaker 2: are both commended in their church environment for their role
35:32
Speaker 2: within it, without prescribing at any given moment of therefore,
35:36
Speaker 2: this is what you do to either men or to women.
35:39
Speaker 2: Right now, Some might respond, what about first Timothy and Titus,
35:46
Speaker 2: where it seems like there's more. That's something we can
35:47
Speaker 2: get to later, But at least at the moment, what
35:50
Speaker 2: we see as a pattern is there's no singular narrative
35:55
Speaker 2: that's put forth for how to act. It's more the
35:59
Speaker 2: joining reality, the faithfulness. And that's before we even consider
36:03
Speaker 2: they just live in a different world, a different basic
36:07
Speaker 2: cadence to the world in terms of pre industrial by
36:10
Speaker 2: a lot a bit different reality to the world of
36:13
Speaker 2: a world that doesn't know Jesus at all, right, a
36:17
Speaker 2: colonial environment, but a colonial environment that had nothing to
36:22
Speaker 2: do with the message of Jesus versus a modern colonial
36:26
Speaker 2: environment that, for whatever its reasons, were predicated upon spreading.
36:31
Speaker 1: The word of Jesus.
36:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we just have the basic reality of
36:36
Speaker 2: the political differences, right, where Paul has no political agency
36:41
Speaker 2: apart from being able to appeal to his citizenship. Right,
36:47
Speaker 2: for many of us we have real political agency, some
36:50
Speaker 2: more than others, but we have real political agency, right,
36:52
Speaker 2: whether it be a simple the simple reality of taking
36:55
Speaker 2: a ballot and voting to things like protests, right, that
37:04
Speaker 2: changes all sorts of things. So to look for one
37:07
Speaker 2: core idea in the midst of all this jumble, and
37:09
Speaker 2: that's just the beginning of the jumble, wouldn't even make sense,
37:15
Speaker 2: you know, we'd have if that was the purpose of
37:17
Speaker 2: the Bible. It would be a really long long text
37:22
Speaker 2: to begin to nail it every distinct dynamic, even to
37:25
Speaker 2: those things that hadn't yet begun to exist.
37:28
Speaker 1: Right.
37:29
Speaker 2: And so back to the paradigm, Right, the idea player
37:31
Speaker 2: of this faithfulness is that it's a recognition. What is
37:35
Speaker 2: it that I am able to give in this environment
37:38
Speaker 2: for the sake of my family, for the sake of Jesus,
37:43
Speaker 2: for the sake of both in conjunction. Right, as Paul
37:48
Speaker 2: pointed out, there were things he could give that someone
37:51
Speaker 2: like Peter couldn't because he chose to forego marriage. He
37:57
Speaker 2: commended to the Carinthian Church. You know, who's willing to
38:00
Speaker 2: join me in this task. It's a good task if
38:04
Speaker 2: you can do it right. All these dynamics right have
38:09
Speaker 2: have have so many qualifications that you can't just simply
38:12
Speaker 2: say a man looks like this and put a stamp
38:16
Speaker 2: upon it. What you have to do is have that
38:18
Speaker 2: wisdom dynamic of being able to discern what can I
38:21
Speaker 2: give in this environment relative to what's around me and
38:24
Speaker 2: who's around me, and what they're giving and what I
38:26
Speaker 2: received from them.
38:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that even what you're saying there,
38:31
Speaker 1: like when you mentioned one Timothy III and Titus, which
38:34
Speaker 1: we can get into later, you know, instruction to elders.
38:37
Speaker 1: Let's say, let's just take for a moment the assumption
38:41
Speaker 1: that this is only to men. Right, If we assume
38:44
Speaker 1: that it's still within a relational context, you're occupying a
38:48
Speaker 1: particular space in relation to the church, and you're being
38:51
Speaker 1: given very specific instructions about what that is. And so
38:56
Speaker 1: it isn't that these now are instructions for any man.
39:02
Speaker 1: It's now instructions for elders. And I think we see
39:06
Speaker 1: that over and over and over and over again, is
39:08
Speaker 1: that the more specific instructions are actually within a given relationship.
39:13
Speaker 1: And so I think it's very difficult for us to
39:16
Speaker 1: assume that just because a husband or a son, or
39:19
Speaker 1: a father and whatever is supposed to act in a
39:21
Speaker 1: very particular way in relation to a wife or a
39:25
Speaker 1: you know, a parent, or a son or a brother
39:28
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, there's a move that we have
39:34
Speaker 1: to make there, like we have to recognize the paradigm
39:37
Speaker 1: within that and say, okay, this isn't about manhood. This
39:41
Speaker 1: is about how we interact within relationships where there is
39:45
Speaker 1: a let's say, a power dynamic of sorts that happens.
39:50
Speaker 1: If you just took the fathers and sons so to
39:52
Speaker 1: passages and you said, well, what would that ever say, right,
39:57
Speaker 1: don't exasperate your children. Well maybe you shouldn't be exasperating anyone,
40:01
Speaker 1: but that you know, this text is saying, don't exasperate
40:05
Speaker 1: your children but it's not like you can go, well,
40:07
Speaker 1: this kid, this isn't my child, so I can exasperate
40:10
Speaker 1: this person all I want. Right, there may be a
40:13
Speaker 1: unique dynamic in which fathers are exasperating their children that
40:16
Speaker 1: needs to be addressed, and that that dynamic needs to change,
40:20
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily mean that exasperating anyone else is okay.
40:25
Speaker 1: And so we can see the paradigm clearly there when
40:29
Speaker 1: we pull it out, But we also need to recognize
40:31
Speaker 1: it's not like it's, uh, mothers, it's okay for you
40:34
Speaker 1: to exasperate your daughters like that's that's lunacy, Like all
40:40
Speaker 1: of it needs to be sort of pulled out in
40:42
Speaker 1: that paradigm, and you say, look, this isn't just about
40:45
Speaker 1: male's females. It's not even about males are particularly susceptible
40:50
Speaker 1: to exasperating their sons. And so that's why it's written
40:53
Speaker 1: this way. Right. There may be certain cases where that
40:56
Speaker 1: comes up, but I don't I mean, as a I
41:00
Speaker 1: who's got daughters and sons, I would say that it's
41:03
Speaker 1: just as easy for me to exasperate any of my children,
41:07
Speaker 1: like you know, how to get on all their nerves.
41:09
Speaker 1: It's okay because it's not a and I would think
41:13
Speaker 1: my wife's the same way. So there's just this sort
41:17
Speaker 1: of turn that we need to make to say, Look,
41:21
Speaker 1: if Christ is who we're supposed to imitate, then what
41:25
Speaker 1: we're constantly doing is asking ourselves, how is it that
41:28
Speaker 1: I can give myself away for the other in a
41:33
Speaker 1: way that will be redemptive to them? Maybe in its
41:36
Speaker 1: most simplistic terms, that's all it really is, and that
41:40
Speaker 1: applies to male and female all at the same time.
41:43
Speaker 1: That's probably too brief, it's too much abbreviation, but that's
41:48
Speaker 1: sort of the trajectory I think the way we need
41:50
Speaker 1: to start thinking about this. And I would just point
41:53
Speaker 1: out here that if we overlay and say, well, men
41:57
Speaker 1: are really supposed to do it this way, so when
41:59
Speaker 1: we imitate here, you have to have this layer of
42:01
Speaker 1: masculinity on top of this. That's actually a really big distraction, agreed.
42:08
Speaker 1: It draws It draws attention away from what we're really
42:11
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing, which is allowing Christ to set
42:13
Speaker 1: the agendas imitate him and not worry about whether or
42:17
Speaker 1: not I feel comfortable in painting, you know, my walls
42:22
Speaker 1: mouth or going to a nail salon or you know,
42:25
Speaker 1: any of the other things we've kind of seen in
42:27
Speaker 1: a lot of this literature. None of that really makes
42:30
Speaker 1: a lot of sense once it's boiled down.
42:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think if I can pull back the
42:38
Speaker 2: analogy you used earlier, you appealed to Muggsy Bogues, five
42:41
Speaker 2: foot three, Muggsy Bogues and a land of giants. Right,
42:45
Speaker 2: professional basketball, to be six foot is to be short,
42:49
Speaker 2: right crazy? And to imagine this five to three guy
42:53
Speaker 2: who made it. Uh, the skill this guy should just
42:58
Speaker 2: inherently had to have had is an important part of
43:01
Speaker 2: the equation. But on top of that, to your point,
43:05
Speaker 2: the amount of work you to put in, I guarantee
43:07
Speaker 2: on some levels he had to work harder than say
43:11
Speaker 2: John Stockton at six'. TWO i believe he was something around, there,
43:15
Speaker 2: Right it was an all time great just to make,
43:19
Speaker 2: it just to be. There, Right there's this iconic picture
43:22
Speaker 2: of him Guarding Michael, jordan Where Michael jordan was an
43:25
Speaker 2: average height basketball, player and he's towering over, him and
43:29
Speaker 2: All michael does is he sticks the ball hype in
43:31
Speaker 2: the air and he's Hunting muggsy like you can't get. This,
43:37
Speaker 2: then the amount of work that goes into that in
43:40
Speaker 2: addition to the talent is really important to recognize because
43:45
Speaker 2: those things together set a lot of things in. Play
43:48
Speaker 2: if we were to say the only way you can
43:52
Speaker 2: be good as a as a man is to be
43:56
Speaker 2: someone who plays in THE, nba we've just lopped off
44:01
Speaker 2: a whole group of people that maybe are six feet
44:05
Speaker 2: tall but don't have the.
44:07
Speaker 1: Talent.
44:07
Speaker 2: Right we've lopped off a whole group of people that
44:12
Speaker 2: maybe are really, talented but they're five to, three right
44:16
Speaker 2: and didn't have the breaks or the hard work euthic
44:18
Speaker 2: Of Muggsy. Bogues my point here is that there's there's
44:23
Speaker 2: so many layers that go into, this and that's WHAT
44:26
Speaker 2: i take you to be, Saying, james that when we
44:31
Speaker 2: when we try to get overly specific with these are
44:34
Speaker 2: the markers of truly being a, man what we end
44:37
Speaker 2: up doing is taking for granted that there's those are
44:42
Speaker 2: just not options that are open to every person who is, male, right,
44:47
Speaker 2: Right and in, fact some of those things might actually
44:50
Speaker 2: be open options.
44:51
Speaker 1: To people who are.
44:52
Speaker 2: Female and what we've now done to, them as we've, said,
44:56
Speaker 2: well for you to exhibit that quality makes you more
45:00
Speaker 2: like a man than a. Woman Right that in that
45:02
Speaker 2: and of itself creates, this, yes this headspace that's entirely
45:08
Speaker 2: unhelpful regardless of where you are on the reality. Here
45:11
Speaker 2: and what, if just what if we were to recognize
45:16
Speaker 2: that people are different and we can encourage them within
45:20
Speaker 2: that to be the fullest of who they. ARE i
45:24
Speaker 2: just wonder if we had done that as a church for,
45:27
Speaker 2: longer might we have had men who are very different
45:30
Speaker 2: from each other who are quite happy to be able
45:34
Speaker 2: to affirm each, other and women who are very different
45:37
Speaker 2: from each other who are quite happy to affirm each
45:40
Speaker 2: other As women's sort of a fool's question that we
45:45
Speaker 2: don't live in that, world but it's not too. Late what?
45:49
Speaker 1: If, WELL i think you, KNOW i was always a big.
45:53
Speaker 1: Fan WHENEVER i Taught romans to, undergraduates we'd start with
45:57
Speaker 1: chapters fourteen and, fifteen and we'd end chapters fourteen and,
46:00
Speaker 1: fifteen BECAUSE i always felt fourteen and fifteen were the
46:06
Speaker 1: Where paul really got it down to brass. Tacks fourteen
46:10
Speaker 1: and fifteen is the weak strong. Argument he's urging these
46:13
Speaker 1: people To he's urging the strong to bear with the.
46:16
Speaker 1: Week he's urging the week not to judge the. Strong
46:19
Speaker 1: he's calling them to a harmonious community, together not of,
46:23
Speaker 1: judgment not of and not telling, them, hey if you see,
46:26
Speaker 1: sin just ignore it or something like, That, Right but
46:29
Speaker 1: what he's trying to get them understand is that these
46:31
Speaker 1: differences shouldn't create disunity within The body Of, christ that
46:37
Speaker 1: these differences should actually condition the way that your strength is,
46:42
Speaker 1: Exercised that these differences should actually condition the way that
46:48
Speaker 1: the weak view the, Strong like these differences are to
46:54
Speaker 1: be enacted within The body In christ in a different.
46:56
Speaker 1: Way AND i always felt like when you started there
47:00
Speaker 1: With romans and then you went back and you started,
47:02
Speaker 1: reading you, know some of the other aspects of, it it,
47:04
Speaker 1: was you, know the jew gentile sort of. Dynamics in
47:09
Speaker 1: the first part of the. Book what you're really, Seeing
47:12
Speaker 1: paul do is get to an even playing, field, right
47:16
Speaker 1: that all of us are in this, together that we've
47:19
Speaker 1: all been in this together from the, beginning that, yes
47:22
Speaker 1: there were certain advantages to Being, jewish but at the
47:25
Speaker 1: end of the, day we're all saved by grace through,
47:28
Speaker 1: faith and so what does this, mean, well and then
47:31
Speaker 1: you get back to fourteen and, fifteen what does it?
47:33
Speaker 1: Mean it means that the differences that we exhibit in
47:36
Speaker 1: community are to be met with, charity with, love with.
47:40
Speaker 1: Respect where to navigate those differences in ways that do
47:44
Speaker 1: not cause other people to, stumble because at the end
47:47
Speaker 1: of the, day their conscience is judged by The, lord
47:50
Speaker 1: not by. You and so let's just make sure that
47:53
Speaker 1: we're cultivating growth within the body Of. Christ we're actually
47:58
Speaker 1: trying to help one. Another AND i just Think romans
48:02
Speaker 1: does that. Beautifully but you really have to almost, START
48:06
Speaker 1: i found with fourteen and, fifteen otherwise you get kind
48:09
Speaker 1: of bogged down in the history of theology and all
48:13
Speaker 1: that kind of fun stuff you have to go through
48:14
Speaker 1: to get to. It but, yeah reading fourteen and fifteen
48:19
Speaker 1: first almost sets the. Framework AND i think that's sort
48:25
Speaker 1: of where we are. Here, it's you, know we're trying
48:32
Speaker 1: to get to a point where we're, saying Imitate, christ,
48:36
Speaker 1: right and allow that imitation Of christ to set your,
48:39
Speaker 1: agenda to curtail your, ambitions to change your, ambitions whatever
48:44
Speaker 1: it means to Imitate. Christ that's What i'm going to.
48:46
Speaker 1: Do and IF i have to slough off other, things
48:47
Speaker 1: that's What i'll do. Too and now this changes the
48:50
Speaker 1: way that we relate to one another, slowly but surely it.
48:53
Speaker 1: Will AND i think that's really the, point whereas if
48:58
Speaker 1: we were substitute, masculinity be A christian man on top of,
49:03
Speaker 1: this where we've shown throughout this series that that's notoriously
49:08
Speaker 1: difficult to, define, Right biblical, masculinity at the very, least
49:15
Speaker 1: is notoriously difficult to. Define Following christ isn't that, Hard
49:20
Speaker 1: it's not that hard to, understand whereas, being you, know
49:25
Speaker 1: a masculine dude. Is it's an, amorphous ambiguous. Concept and
49:29
Speaker 1: so why would we try for that when we barely
49:32
Speaker 1: understand what it is and where it's. Going when we
49:36
Speaker 1: already have a picture given to us and are told
49:39
Speaker 1: in scripture to follow this, person imitate this, person do
49:42
Speaker 1: what this person. Did we already know what we're supposed to.
49:45
Speaker 1: Do we don't need the extra. Framing and SO i
49:49
Speaker 1: would argue that it's actually detrimental to put the masculine
49:52
Speaker 1: piece Onto christianity because it's a wrong framing and it's
49:57
Speaker 1: distracting us from where we're really supposed to, go which
49:59
Speaker 1: is is Imitating, christ being self giving and doing these
50:04
Speaker 1: sort of ongoing negotiations right within community to build up
50:11
Speaker 1: the body Of. Christ even if it's to our own.
50:13
Speaker 1: Detriment so, Yes SO i think in some.
50:18
Speaker 2: A in order for us to really Understand jesus is
50:22
Speaker 2: instructive to every single. Person, yeah we have to peel
50:27
Speaker 2: off that sort of masculine and masculinity. Filter. Yes but
50:34
Speaker 2: in addition to, THAT i like your point about it's
50:38
Speaker 2: it's easier just to Take jesus As jesus and to Imitate,
50:42
Speaker 2: jesus BECAUSE i take it what you mean by by
50:48
Speaker 2: the easiness there. Is this isn't like asking the average
50:51
Speaker 2: person to go hang with a bunch OF nba players
50:54
Speaker 2: in a pickup game of, basketball, right something that most
50:58
Speaker 2: of us don't have the skills to.
51:00
Speaker 1: Do.
51:00
Speaker 2: Right the difficulty Of jesus is encapsulated by the, rich young, ruler,
51:07
Speaker 2: yes who had a wilfulness. Problem it's not a call upon,
51:12
Speaker 2: talent it's not a call upon having one set of
51:16
Speaker 2: strengths versus another set of. Strengths it was just a
51:19
Speaker 2: matter of are you willing to do? It?
51:22
Speaker 1: Yeah and.
51:25
Speaker 2: The difficulty with the masculinity filter is that it actually
51:28
Speaker 2: is outside the skill set of a large number of. People, right,
51:34
Speaker 2: right you just can't do. IT i, MEAN i think
51:36
Speaker 2: of a really good friend of. Mine if we think
51:38
Speaker 2: about something as simple as lifting. Weights WHO i lifted
51:40
Speaker 2: weights with him for years and you would never know
51:43
Speaker 2: it looking at. Him his frame was the tiniest frame
51:47
Speaker 2: you'll ever. See and maybe he'll listen to this and
51:51
Speaker 2: he'll Know i'm talking about. Him sorry about, That but
51:56
Speaker 2: he was in there and he was, working AND i
51:58
Speaker 2: know he was, working he was. Alongside he was never
52:01
Speaker 2: going to he was never going to Lift James spencerwaight
52:04
Speaker 2: just wasn't gonna. Happen it wasn't his. Frame but you
52:08
Speaker 2: don't want to put that kind of filter on, it,
52:10
Speaker 2: right that kind of filter that's based upon, personality that's
52:13
Speaker 2: based upon its skills, abilities and that's not at all
52:16
Speaker 2: What jesus did for. Him it was a matter of,
52:18
Speaker 2: wilfulness which is, hard but it's a different kind of.
52:20
Speaker 1: Hard, WELL i think it's no, mistake and we can
52:24
Speaker 1: kind of maybe close up with, this BUT i don't
52:25
Speaker 1: think it's any mistake that the rich young ruler narrative
52:28
Speaker 1: in scripture is juxtaposed with the children coming To. Jesus,
52:33
Speaker 1: right they're coming as completely, vulnerable completely, dependent without. Anything
52:41
Speaker 1: they're just, kids they have, nothing and these are the
52:45
Speaker 1: type of, people the, vulnerable the, dependent the people who
52:48
Speaker 1: are willing to come with no inconmferences To. Jesus these
52:53
Speaker 1: are the people who are the kingdom Of. God the
52:56
Speaker 1: folks like the rich young, ruler who are dependent on
52:58
Speaker 1: their wealth to a large, degree and they've cultivated a
53:01
Speaker 1: dependence on their, wealth they are going to have a
53:03
Speaker 1: much harder time entering The kingdom Of god because they
53:06
Speaker 1: are refusing to let go of what they need to
53:10
Speaker 1: let go of in order to really truly give themselves
53:14
Speaker 1: fully To. Christ AND i think that's the point of
53:17
Speaker 1: those two narratives In chuck's. Position and, so, yeah that
53:22
Speaker 1: is WHAT i mean by. Easier it's you, know IF
53:27
Speaker 1: i had to live up to the standards Of olympic,
53:29
Speaker 1: Weightlifters i'm. Done and so these arbitrary lines that were
53:34
Speaker 1: drawing for other men are, unnecessary, unhealthy and. Unhelpful AND
53:39
Speaker 1: i think they're going to lead us down a path
53:42
Speaker 1: of wrecking The church as opposed to building The body Of.
53:46
Speaker 1: Christ we know how to do, this like scriptures very
53:50
Speaker 1: clear on. It Imitrate christ to follow, him be self,
53:54
Speaker 1: giving love one, another Love. God like we know all
53:57
Speaker 1: of this. Stuff that's very clear, Masculinity biblical, Masculinity biblical
54:02
Speaker 1: manhood completely, unclear confusing most of the, time full of
54:08
Speaker 1: bravado and bull, crap like it's just a completely unnecessary.
54:13
Speaker 1: Paradigm AND i just think that what we're putting back
54:17
Speaker 1: in place if we take away biblical manhood and we
54:20
Speaker 1: put this back in, place where we're putting back in
54:21
Speaker 1: place is, discipleship learning to live under the authority For
54:25
Speaker 1: christ and allowing him and his the paradigm that he
54:29
Speaker 1: said guide the course of our. Lives you want to
54:33
Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team At Life Audio christian.
54:37
Speaker 1: Podcast this Is if you go to life audio dot,
54:39
Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts hung
54:42
Speaker 1: in there with. Us they've got shows About bible parenting everybody.
54:46
Speaker 1: Else we're going to continue this year is we're going
54:48
Speaker 1: to actually start doing a little bit More Exe jesus
54:51
Speaker 1: of certain passages and looking at specific passages here now
54:54
Speaker 1: that we've kind of gone through the the the visionary
54:57
Speaker 1: portion of its bost of this, series so stick with
55:00
Speaker 1: us and come back on the next. Episode take care of.
55:03
Speaker 1: Everybody m