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The Paraplanner Club - Sian Davies Cole · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: And today's guest is Sean Davies Cole, who is a chartered power planner.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: She's also the director of Plan Works, which is an outsourced power planning company.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: And she's the co-founder and mentor at the PowerPlanner Club, which is a mentorship program completely free for any power planners or aspiring power planners to connect to mentors and mentees to help develop their own knowledge and experience and to help promote this wonderful career path within the financial planning profession.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: We cover so much in this episode.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sean's a fantastic guest, and what a power planner to have on the show.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you enjoy it.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sean, thanks for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very well, thank you, Sam.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, thanks for having me.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's all right, no worries.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: We finally got round to seeing it, didn't we?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because we've been trying for a little while and do cancellations here and there either time, but we're there.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, nice to finally be here.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Fabulous.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: And a fellow Bristolian as well.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're not very far away from each other.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we live on the right side of the country.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely the best.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: The Southwest's the best, as they say.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: You can't.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Cool.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, brilliant.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well, listen, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm always pleased to bring power planners onto the Financial Planner Life podcast because throughout my 13 years of working within the profession as a recruitment consultant, I've seen the role of a power planner evolve from being this kind of person who sits in the back office that didn't really have a job title, which is a bit of a dog's body or something like that.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: And all of a sudden, coming into this profession, coming out of it, you know, coming into a role within the profession within its own right.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I love bringing power planners on and talking about it because not everybody knows what a financial planner does.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I tell you what, outside of the profession, not many people know really what a power planner does or even what they actually do.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: They hear of the word power legal, but never power planner.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it'd be great today to hear a little bit about your journey, how you got into the profession.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll talk a little bit about your transition, I think, from being employed to then going self-employed as a freelance power planner.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Again, something that's kind of evolved over the last few years for a select number of experienced power planners who have that confidence and want to kind of step out and set their own businesses up and work for themselves, where there's a quite a bit of appetite, I believe.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll talk a little bit about that.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll also talk about your passion project, which is the Power Planner Club and um why you set it up and um what you're hoping to achieve with it really and what you've achieved so far.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: So lots to talk about.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: So how I always like to begin is by sort of just you giving us an overview of how you got into the profession.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's quite an interesting place to start because lots of people like to come, you know, like to get into the financial planning profession, but don't quite know how they how to get in it.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And you sharing your journey will obviously um inspire and uh give them some ideas.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: So very briefly, you know, how did you get into the profession?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a long story, uh, but I can condense it down, which I will do.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and for me, like like you, it does it really interests me the career journey that people have gone on.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and something that um I also have to talk about quite a lot because going into financial planning and into paraplanning, it's not kind of uh there isn't, you know, you do this and then you do that, and then you're a paraplanner or you're a financial planner.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: It there's a long process to go go down, and it means getting experience.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, that's not something you can sit and examine to.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get the experience by doing various things in different roles uh to get there.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I've had quite a varied um uh history, uh so I'll summarise that very briefly.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but all of that I feel the there's so many different areas that I've um seen and experienced that they have then led me on to being really well kind of grounded in my experience and the different things that I've seen which really help.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's also really hard to quantify all of that stuff when you're trying to kind of explain to anyone coming into the industry or trying to train people up because you know it's uh you don't kind of note down all of these separate experiences that you have and how they've uh built into your um your way of thinking.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, so um uh so just uh very briefly.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um I uh it all started off me working for a bank, a high street bank, um uh as a gap year.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't intend to kind of make that a real career for myself and actually um uh never never really intended for that to happen, but um, but enjoyed myself there.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I did was was client-facing at that point in a in a branch opening accounts, you know, doing loans, um getting sort of a bit involved in things like mortgages and and that sort of thing.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was very salesy.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I could tell for me that that wasn't, I didn't really enjoy that sales bit when the pressure was on, um, but I was good at it.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as no one was saying you've got a target, then I could do it quite quite easily.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um as soon as they say there's a target, you need to sell this thing.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I did not like that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and these were the days before RDR, um, and things were a bit different then.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sales pressures were very different to what they are now.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you had targets, you had to meet them, you will had bonuses on those targets if you achieved them and you could make some good money.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um so yes.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: This is when you were working for a bank though, yeah.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: So you judge yeah, so you were working for HSBC at the time, yeah?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it was kind of like uh what, like an account manager or a set, you know, were you selling uh loans or bank accounts or yes, yeah.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the so my starting role was, you know, I I was a person where you walk into the branch and I would be the person that you would see if you walked in and said, I want to open a bank account or I want to get a loan or I want I want to talk to someone about the mortgage, I would be one of those people that would say, Yeah, I I can talk to you about that, I can do that for you.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, it was it was an interesting experience because it wasn't just okay, I'm just going to open you a bank account.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: It they they did have a really good process in terms of you had to, you know, find out about the client fact finding, know your client, as well as the kind of uh you know, uh anti-money laundering stuff.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was you know a normal kind of what I now see now see as a you know financial planning backfind.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was you get you go through, you know, tell me about your life, tell me about your work, tell me about your family, tell me about your aspirations.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you you know, you you did go through all of that kind of stuff.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh and that's where I kind of learned that you know, for me, building those relationships was something that I could do.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I enjoyed doing that, uh, and the sales came off the back of it.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I yeah, I I quite enjoyed doing that.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Very good starting point for anybody that wants to get into the financial services and really, as well, a great starting point for anybody who's looking to gain that exposure and experience that would take them into client-facing roles, such as a financial advisor, where the banks used to be this beautiful place where you could kind of start as a CSO, say at HSBC or a personal banker in that west.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: And if you were good and you know you were you were learning and you were getting the sales in, then you would instantly sort of move more into the mortgage advisor group or you would move into the financial advisory route, wouldn't you?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that sort of closure of the bank assurance, if you like, has kind of limited the uh the training opportunities for people to get into the financial planning profession.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that's an area where it's kind of um hindered the growth, isn't it, a little bit of financial advice?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: You were at HSBC then, okay.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: You kind of realized there a bit you didn't particularly like the the sales element of it, but enjoyed the relationship side then.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: So whilst you were at HSBC, did you step into a role in in in a kind of power planning capacity?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: Did they have something like that there?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Where did you start to learn about power planning?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I did in uh in an easy response.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um so from moving from being kind of the person that you would walk into the branch and see, I then moved into a um uh a kind of a higher net worth um looking after a bank of clients kind of role where you know I would meet with those clients more like a you know a financial planner now, um, but it was non-regulated, so I would be um you know talking to these clients that have you know a certain amount of money, um, uh getting them to move it out of their current account to savings, maybe invest it possibly and introducing them to the IFA that we've we could introduce them to potentially.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, so so just a bit more of a personal relationship.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh so yeah, so looking after those kind of clients.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the pressure for me was it was certainly on even more so, and I was even more falling out of love with that kind of pressure.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, knowing that I could do it, but also knowing that it wasn't really me.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was happy with kind of doing analysis, looking at numbers, sitting in the back office, seeing the clients um was fine, it was nice, it was okay, I was good at doing it, but it wasn't really my passion, I could tell that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and um at that point, like you said, there's there was lots of kind of uh financial advice was a big part of banks at that point.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was seeing financial planners um uh quite often, having good relationships with them, and in certainly in that role as well, because I was having to introduce my clients to them, so and they wanted me to do that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um so we had good relationships there, but and and that's where I kind of started learning about investments and also learning um how to um explain things simply to clients that don't understand um investments, um, and and found out that's I was actually quite good at doing that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and that was a really key part for me, but also you know, you're you're learning all about how good am I at communicating, um, and and you're kind of uh you know building up those skills over time, seeing what comes naturally and seeing where your um your needs really are, uh and also what you want to develop.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I um uh was doing that role for a for a short time.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um the financial planners um uh were sort of talking to me and kind of said they they were going through diploma at that point, because at that point nobody was diploma qualified.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um they'd done kind of you know level three certificates, that's all you needed to to be a financial planner at that point, as well as being a really good salesperson.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh so uh but that that this was at the point where RDR was coming in, you know, 2010, 11.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: They knew it was coming, they were they were getting getting their um Salesforce ready to be able to just take that leap into being being okay in the the post-RDR world.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so they were doing uh they were doing their diplomas, uh and the best bit of advice I got from one of them was just said just start on that journey, get it done.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh so I so I thought, well, fine, yeah, let's let's let's do this.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm serious about, you know, I I'll enjoy this, I'm serious about doing building a career, so let's get on with it.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh being in a bank, it was very much aligned with the um what is now the LIBF, um, because that's much more it was banking focused, uh, but did provide a route into uh level four.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so started off doing my um certificate level exams with them, which was CIFA, um uh and uh and then just progressed through doing those.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um at that point, then a um uh a power planning job came up in the London uh Central London um office, and uh it was a it was a trial, it was a project.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: They'd never they didn't have them at that point.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um the financial planners would do their own power planning, they would have uh an administrator, um, but they would do their own power plan, they didn't have anybody else kind of that they were um collaborating with, working with on cases, making sure that clients are getting the right advice, and they would just be doing it themselves.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they they wanted to trial this out to see whether it was something that was um uh you know going to be productive, going to be useful um uh for the business.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they tried it in kind of uh failed to think what the what the term was, but it was like ultra-high net worth um uh clients and ultra-high net worth advisors.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: These, you know, this was this was Central London dealing with Canary Wharf.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I worked in Regent Street.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was um, yeah, so it was really really interesting, but a new kind of phenomenon um uh of uh of a team, a project and uh and a theory.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I had you know advice along the way from the financial planners I was working with, were very much like, oh yeah, I've heard about this new thing called power planning.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, you know, that along with the diploma sounds like a good place to go.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, get get on that uh get on that journey.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, it was you know, just those snippets of advice for me were just key things.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, yeah, actually, this sounds really great.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it sounds like a really interesting experience to get on board with.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay, so post-RDO, post-RDR, all of a sudden this opportunity, this this vacancy comes up at HSBC, power plan.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder what that is.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like something I'd be interested in.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, even the the advisors themselves were kind of, I've heard of this this type of need, this role in the post-RDR world.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you went there as a kind of almost trial, but it takes the boxes for you as a person as to how you wanted to progress your career and what interested you, what you know, what was what you were passionate about.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: You realised early on by uh by having a taste of it, that sales, that that kind of pressure that comes with sales as well, wasn't for you, but the actual interest lied in the actual research and the compliance side or the um understanding the products a bit more um and making sure that the research was in place to ensure that the right product was being put in front of the right clients, for instance.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: So did you uh one of the major benefits, I guess, from being branch-based and dealing with with the clients if they walk through the door in a CSO capacity was also as well the relationship building skills that you gained.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, moving from that role then into say power planning, which can be um heavy on the administration.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think that it added value to you?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: The the building relationship bit.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh and actually, you know, I was uh running a uh webinar yesterday all about relationship building.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because it's the bit of power planning that no one tells you that you really, really need.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I've worked with so many power planners that don't that don't acknowledge that you need those skills, because um it's it's it's not about relationship building, it's not about people, it's about I've come here and I've got I'm a technical expert and I'm good at doing admin, and that's what I like doing.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I like sitting in the back office and and write a report, you know, keeping myself to myself, kind of that's that tends to be the the kind of uh generalization of the role.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but actually, you know, if you don't build relationships with your financial planners that you're working with as a minimum, then you're not going to be a very good paraplanner.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean I couldn't imagine enjoying the job if I didn't, if I wasn't good at doing that and didn't build those relationships.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, financial planners as a general, if they don't know you, they don't trust you uh because they don't know um whether you know your stuff, they don't know how uh how committed you are, they don't know how involved you're gonna get in the advice or want to get in the in involved in it.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's different for every person because not everybody has the confidence or even wants to get that involved in in kind of that level, or you know, some some uh paraplans might not even want to get involved in going to private meetings and things like that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But but some some very much are are open to that kind of uh that kind of route as well.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, as a minimum, I I can't see how you, if you don't have a good relationship with your financial planner, you can't be really honest with them, and you certainly can't challenge them in a in a way where it's good for both of you.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you you know you can't say to somebody, and you do wouldn't want to say to somebody, you know, what you're doing is not right, technically, or you know, well, there's another option.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: To say to them you're not doing you're not doing this right, there's another option you need to consider, you need to be able to frame that in a way that is going to be accepted, uh, is going to be um, you know, it's not going to cause a rift, and it's just going to build and strengthen the relationship you've already got.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so because it just won't be productive for anybody if you don't do that.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the end client is the one that's going to lose out at the at the end of that if you don't uh make sure that the client has got the right thing.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: Have you seen that's very interesting?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the relationship side of it is definitely something when I come across power planners and some of them don't have any experience of a background within building strong relationships, you can totally see the difference, even just how they communicate with us here in the recruitment world and trying to articulate what they've done.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very, very different to somebody that's used to sitting down with clients on a face-to-face basis in any capacity you could when you work in a travel agent.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, travel agents is one of those fantastic environments where you learn so many skills, you know, and opening people up, understanding what their fears are, worries are, concerns are, and dealing with all sorts of things.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a great example.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: But um, I think having that experience within the banking environment and bringing it across must have been absolutely spot on for you.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: Did you find in your early stages?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because obviously you were at the bank and then you left the bank and you moved into a uh power planner position at a TIVO, didn't you?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: That sort of means, you know, in those early stages of power planning, in early stages of your career, did you often feel a little bit like you were considered to be below the financial advisor, that you weren't as important as the financial advisor?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: And there was almost this kind of what's the word, like um, you know, where you're submissive almost, you know, that you have to do what they say as opposed to Yeah, I you know, I work for the financial planner and I am their effectively their assistant.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it it's like that in some places.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's all down to the culture.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um part partially, um, it is down to the culture.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: It all comes from the top, but it also comes from power planners stepping up and having those relationships with those financial planners, having having the confidence to have the relationships and also having the self-belief in their own knowledge, in their in themselves, their self-understanding.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because if they do that, they will get a different relationship with the financial planners that they work with, even if the culture in the firm is not quite there in terms of power planners and financial planners being on the same level, if they if they act like they're on the same level, if they put their mindset on the same level as the financial planner, those financial planners will see them on that same level and you will get a different relationship than you have otherwise.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's all about your own attitude, your own, your own mentality and how you approach your work.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are someone as a power planner that just you know has a mentality that I am, I'm just here from nine to five, I'm going to just write my report and do what I'm told.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to question anything.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and some power planners are told to work like that and have to work like that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's no other option.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's what you are doing and uh and that's the way that the firm is sort of uh making you work, then you're, you know, you're you're not you're you're you're you know you're submitting to that kind of uh that kind of relationship.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're just doing what you're told, um, you're not questioning things, especially when things, you know, you might want to question something because you think actually that doesn't seem it doesn't seem like the right thing to do for the client.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or there is maybe another option, and um I can't see why you wouldn't do that.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, in different cases it'll be stronger than others, you know, there might be a simple kind of, you know, are you doing a pension contribution or an ICE contribution from cash?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't you doing a pension contribution as well?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, those are the kind of things that, you know, it might be on the file, it might not, there might be an obvious reason why it hasn't been considered.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And but where there isn't an obvious reason, it's like, okay, I really need to know that now.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Am I going to push that question or am I just gonna write my report just want to get it off my desk?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you're writing the report to get it off your desk, you're not gonna have those strong relationships and you are just gonna be working for a financial planner rather than working with them because they need collaboration.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: They they are they are relying on power planners to cross-check their advice to make sure that the advice is good, to make sure the file's good.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's only really the power planner other than the financial planner that's gonna have a feel for that, um, because they've got that they literally have to write in, you know, in a report, you know, what I'm what I'm recommending to you is X, Y, and Z, and I'm justifying that because of X, Y, and Z.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you can't piece those two bits together, then nobody else is gonna kind of stop that from happening.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's um uh or change or change that at all.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh yeah, and it's it's the end client that's um is is benefiting or not benefiting from that being right.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and um and for me it's all about you know having that as a focus, making sure that the end client is the one that's in my mind when we're thinking about these things.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: So do you do you often think like that then?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: So are you often quite worried and not worried as such, but you have a uh a commitment as a member of that team, as a member of a financial planning firm, to make sure that you are 100% happy with what is actually being delivered to that financial advisor for them to go and actually provide the right advice.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because although it's not your name that's attached to the advice, you are playing a vital role in ensuring that the client has the best experience possible and gets the best advice.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to have that attention to detail, I assume.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: You have to have that passion to deliver the right thing, to be to do to the right values, the right attitude, as you put it earlier.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it it is it's really it's really strange because you you work with, as a paraplanner, you work with so many different financial planners, different ages, different experiences, different values, different ways of doing things.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you work with some of that are really salesy and and that you can tell that that's what's really interesting them, and they they're not so hot on the technical stuff, which is fine because that's why they've got us.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um whereas some you know want all the the technical stuff and might tell the clients too much technical information, for example.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's it's about you know getting all of those different um, you know, different skills of being able to build relationships really comes in because you need to be able to read those um those people that you're working with and understand okay, so I'm going to make some assumptions and now are they the right assumptions that I'm making and then how do I communicate that with you?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because some of them very much are related.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Relying on you, you know, a new financial planner coming in.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them will be very honest with you and say, look, I'm relying on you because I need you and I don't know what I'm doing.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't got the experience.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I knew how, so I'm going to need you to help me.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And but that honesty, but that honesty is really that, you know, that opens up that relationship straight away.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Paris planners can do that as well.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's, you know, that that really builds a really nice relationship.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's very interesting because as the profession loses advisors, experienced advisors, the less experienced advisors are coming through.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you've got people transitioning from sales backgrounds, relationship-based backgrounds, where they might not have the skill set required to be sitting and researching and they've done enough to get their qualifications.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: They're great at building relationships, going out and winning clients, but maybe not as good as a power planner in understanding the technical side of everything.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting, isn't it, that the power planner is going to be this very stable backbone to the growth of the financial planning profession going forward.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because anybody coming in with, well, I've got my level four, I want to be an advisor now, and it's like, well, you don't know it all.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a dangerous place to be.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, here's somebody that's a good thing.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, taking somebody as a financial planner who you're taking them as a financial planner because they've got their level four diploma.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: If the diploma does not teach you enough to be a good paraplanner or a financial planner, it's a starting point.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the experience has to kick in.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's how do you get that experience without making mistakes that are costing a client?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So interestingly, the learn.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you make mistakes that cost a client, then you know, then you're putting your job at risk and you're not doing what you should be doing.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I've never seen yeah, I've never seen it from that perspective where the power planner becomes the vital part of the business, which almost trains and supports the advisor in that in their learning and in their confidence.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: You always kind of assume, well, I'm an advisor, I'm coming in, and I suppose the ego there or the arrogance might take over.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you're like the support, where the support in respect of doing my admin and do doing the admin and doing all the stuff that I don't want to do, where actually it's like you need to build a bloody good relationship with a good power planner because they're your eyes and ears, and they're the ones that might well be your safety net when you don't know what you're doing.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you build if you as a financial planner build a good relationship with your power planner, that power planner will, you know, they will bend over backwards for you.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you get you get treated in some funny ways as a power planner.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And are you going to bend over backwards for a financial planner or anyone that you work with that treats you in a certain way?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, because you will just come in and you will do your nine to five and you'll write that report and you won't question it because you know it's not appreciated and that relationship just isn't forthcoming.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that's not down, you know, sometimes not down to you, it's down to just the financial planner, you know.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes just having that mindset that I am I'm a financial planner and you will do what I'm what you're told.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you will just you'll never have a good relationship with those people if you if you want to um be on that same level with them.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's uh it's it's it's it's really interesting.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I you know I've seen this in practice.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as you start building that relationship and saying, you know, I am an expert at this, um, you know, certain financial planners will just go, oh my god, that's great.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going straight to Sean.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as I get a whiff of a case that's that's like that, I know that Sean absolutely loves tax planning, absolutely is, you know, it's a star on estate planning stuff.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to go to her because I've got a client that might need that stuff.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that she she'll um she's got my back, she will happily talk to clients if I ever needed to her to, uh, she'll write a great report, you know.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you know, blowing my own trumpet there.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, it's you you literally see this happening um you know in firms, whereas, you know, yeah, with other relationships, you just see that not fostering anything.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it just doesn't go anywhere.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you set up as a um uh self-employed um freelance power planner as opposed to an employee power planner, haven't you?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: So you've you've worked with multiple different different financial advisors in in different capacities, but have you seen throughout your time and experienced a bad financial advisor relationship with a power planner?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I've seen it, I've experienced it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: And just talk to us about that.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: For you, what was what was it that made it a bad experience?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the experience I've had, so there wasn't necessarily a culture in the firm that fostered it.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it didn't kind of say, you know, the power planning team and the financial planning team, you work together and you are your you're equal.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: There was definitely I've I've I you know there's there was not not that message.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, it uh you weren't you weren't sitting together, you weren't treated the same in terms of the respect, you know, there's there was, you know, pre uh pre-lockdown, certainly there was very much a mentality, and I think there still is of, you know, you're a power planner, so you are in the office, you are sitting at your desk from nine to five, and you will not go and work at home.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know that that's very general, um uh, but you know, I know that those kind of attitudes existed.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they still, I think they still exist now, uh, as soon as the the doors opened, then it was like, right, power planners back in.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, but you're a financial planner, you can work from home, you can come into the office whenever you like.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and for people, you know, I think you know, if employees are seeing it now, if they're not that flexible, they will only attract a certain type of people now because, you know, what I've been talking about earlier, we're we're both parents.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: That really, you know, having that flexibility is really key for me.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, does that mean that I'm gonna work less hours?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, it means I actually probably work more because I will, you know, pick up work at the weekends or work in the evenings and things like that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about um, you know, working less hours necessarily, it's just about I just want to, you know, I don't want to work this afternoon because I need to go and do this or that or um and just balancing family life.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's that's this kind of one of the struggles that that's been had.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's not all down to culture because you can you can the top-down can say, you know, you're treated as treated on the same level.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that really helps.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is also down to individual financial planners just having different attitudes.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that partially is them, but it's also partially the other power planners that they've worked with.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: If if if they've worked only ever worked with power planners that do what they're told, they're gonna have the view that that is what a power planner does.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're not gonna have the view that a power planner should be somebody that they can collaborate with, someone that is on the same level as them, someone that's got their back and they can absolutely trust and work with rather than just you know give them a file and then they you know do a report and give it back to you.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um some of the alarm bells that would be ringing for maybe somebody listening to this podcast who is uh maybe an administrator or a power planner sitting within a firm is how are you treated?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how are you viewed by the others within the business?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: Are you segregated?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, do they compartmentalize?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: Are you are is what you do over there and what they do over there?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Do they go out and have the fun stuff and do you get involved in that?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are you allowed to work from home as much as they're allowed to work from home?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Are you treated differently?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and I've I've experienced that massively over the years, talking to administrators and power planners where they just feel like they are not part of the business, they don't feel connected to it, they're not brought into meetings, they're not asked for their opinions, investment meetings, committees, all that kind of stuff.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Even the client meeting.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: And what you're seeing now is the good firms, the people that really value their staff and everybody within the business for what they actually do.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: There is this engagement.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: Can I bring that person into this meeting?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: What value can they add in this transformation meeting?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not just all about the client meeting, it's about the development of the business as well, and about the valuable insight that somebody has when they're working a process, whether it be administrative back, you know, back office function, compliance, power planning, they have a vital experience of doing the job.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: And they can give so much backbore to the company to allow the company to grow, but also to foster, as you say, a far greater, more um inclusive um culture.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that is important.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's hugely important.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: People shouldn't feel like they're on the side and they're just uh an expensive need, you know, an expensive need to be able to have.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and it's really also about you know understanding that different people are in different roles, not because they're you know not good enough to be a financial planner or or they're they're you know they're not as confident, so they can't be there.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can be a great financial planner and you can be a great paraplanner, you know, you can be absolutely on the same level.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is all about making you know, making that happen, but understanding there's a difference.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, you know, understanding that my personality type is different from a gen, generally speaking, gen different from a financial planner personality type.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's a really easy point because you've got one personality, I've got a different type of personality.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I can be great at what I do and you can be great at what you do.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good way of understanding why people are in different roles and understanding how different people can how you how you need to talk to different people, how different people work, but also how different people can contribute differently to the the thing you're trying to achieve just by looking at it from different angles.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's it's really, really interesting.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and where I've worked in firms where we've done personality testing, and actually, you know, this this for me started when I was at the bank going through sales training processes, you know, personality testing, negotiation training, it's all part of what I went through.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it really just if you're if you're somebody that is open to learning from those kinds of experiences, you just go, right, okay, that you know, you might say, Oh, I don't don't agree with that result.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, but actually it might be just a bit too much truth for you, and you just need time to process that and accept that, or it might not be right.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, and that can really help you then as a person develop and get that confidence because you actually understand yourself and can make decisions then about what you are doing for your career and your life.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because if you know, if you're if you're an introvert and you're in a role that is, you know, requires somebody who's extroverted, you're not going to feel happy in that role.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can try and try, but you'll always feel like there's a mismatch, you'll never feel at peace.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's uh it's about making sure that you can move to something that is really aligned to you and your personality type, or you know, or the personality type you want to be, you know, that you that you can then work towards.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: So flipping it on its head, have you obviously stepping, we're sort of progressing through your career here at pace, but you're now obviously uh outsourced and you're working with financial advisors of multiple different firms, correct?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and I would use the set the term outsourced as opposed to freelance, only because only because we do we, you know, there are freelance power planners in the industry and they tend to work kind of, they're they're very individual, um, they tend to just you know be a bit more uh, you know, be able to pick up work and and not pick up work, whereas, you know, we as an outsourced power planning firm, we have we have clients that we we on board, they're a specific type of client, uh, we choose to have their relationship both from them and from us.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if they're not the right client for us and we're not the right um uh outsource power planning company for them, we won't work together.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's very much a um a kind of a committed relationship where you're making that decision to work together.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason for that is so that you can build those relationships because we are not interested in having that kind of um you know conveyor belt power planning kind of uh service.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much, you know, we we see ourselves as an extension of um a power planning um or a financial planning um firm, um and we're just their power planning team that they have.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: You're trying to embed yourself, you know, within their business as a vital part.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: And interesting that then.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: So have you found that the outsourced function of power planning is something there is of great appetite for?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Do you find that firms feel more comfortable not having the responsibility, let's say, of hiring somebody, of managing somebody, their, you know, having to do their holidays and their pay and all that kind of things?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, are you finding the appetite growing for it?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, years ago I would have said, I, you know, I would never want to be an outsource power planner.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that was down to the experience that I had working in financial planning firms, having to use outsource power planning companies, and they were, you know, a certain type of company, and um, you know, I I you know didn't want to want to do that bit.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then I realised actually it's not all the same.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I think yeah, absolutely there is a demand growing.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Every outsource power planner that is out there absolutely backs that up.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just seems to be exploding.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the lockdown and COVID has probably a lot to answer for that because people are, you know, the the working from home situation, the flexibility around working, it's opened people's eyes to the fact that that's an option.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And some employers don't like to be able to offer that flexibility to power planners, and now they've got a choice.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know, that's that's one kind of uh one reason.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: But also managing people generally is hard work if that's not what you're interested in doing.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I now speak as an employer uh now that we have a team, and it is you know is something that you have to want to do, and I I I'm I'm quite happy doing that, and uh so it works for me.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you have to actively make a choice that you're going to be doing that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's one part of it, but it's yeah, choosing a power planner that is, you know, that is going to be good for your business.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really difficult decision.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also managing that power planner, and this is where I've seen it in firms, if it's usually the you know, the directors, the owners, you know, they're usually financial planners, they are managing the power planners that they're employing.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really difficult because they're a different personality type generally.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: They they're doing a different job.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and that's where the culture thing really comes in and is really, really important.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because uh, you know, then you can make the decision do I then employ you know ahead of power planning?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've obviously been in that role before, but heads of power planning are very expensive and they're not writing reports.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it's really difficult to see kind of the you know, there's no literal output because there is no reports being written, but the value they'd add to the firms is all through the collaboration, the you know, building the culture, making sure the team are looked after, um, and also builds into what we touched on earlier, which is kind of making people um that are maybe administrators, maybe just you know, entry-level coming into a firm, or you know, power planners building experience, what how how are they building their career?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: What how are they getting what they want?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is there someone that's actually asking them the questions?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want as a career and how are we going to get there?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because in my experience, that that piece has been very much missing in power planning teams.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just you know, brought in as a power planner, you'll do you're doing the job that I need you to do, but you know, you might not be um questioned about you know what more exams might you want to do, where do you want to get to, um, unless you say I want to be a financial planner, and then they're like, Great, okay, come on, then this is this is a journey.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll get you in as a financial planner.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you if you if you if you that's not the answer for you, then there isn't generally an awful lot of interest in it.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um about the the root of power, you know, becoming a power planner, because it's always kind of like administrator, senior administrator, bam, you're a power planner.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: But the term power planner, the word power planner, the job title power planner is so like it's used for everything.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's so vague.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's so vague.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, what level of power planner do you want?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: And if someone said senior power planner, you know, why can't the role of a power planner be broken down uh even further?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's far easier to send somebody, take somebody on a career progression journey, you know, through it.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so we've got a recruitment consultant, yeah.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: But we have like I think it's five stages, six stages almost to becoming like a like a top-end recruitment consultant.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: But you're you're learning each progressive part throughout that journey.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it's very clear and very obvious what each step is.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: And each step has a goal and each step has competencies that you have to complete to get to the next one to keep they keep you motivated.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: But also from our perspective, we can very quickly ascertain where somebody sits within based on their experience.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of firms just don't invest in that, that career progression, that career framework, if you like, for power planners.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's just get me a power planner.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: I want a power planner.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: They don't grow on trees, mate.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like what level of power planner?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't want to pay more than 30,000.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it always comes down to money.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's always money.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's never experience or the type of person that I want in my business or how they fit in or what value they add or what experience they have.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's just I want a power planner for this much money.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and the experience part as well is not just about years, it's about what have they got experience in doing?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what is the firm doing?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is the firm a real financial planning firm where you build cash flow with clients?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you talk about the clients' goals and dreams and what they actually want to achieve?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just about a pension and an ICER.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because that that experience is the bit that you absolutely do not learn in any of the exams.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: The real how to build a financial plan is is the bit that kind of uh, you know, that's the bit that you learn as you go through your career, um, and you need experience to be able to get there.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that is there's things like CFP that do help you with that, but you know, I'm just starting going through that that sort of journey now, and I couldn't have imagined trying to go through that, you know, five years, ten years ago because it just I I couldn't see that happening because the experience uh combined with the knowledge that I've gained just just amounts to being able to do that, you know, not not naturally, but kind of you know, it it's much more ingrained in how I work.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's much easier for me to kind of take that next step and see it, you know, you you've got the basics and then you've got the bit on top of the basics, and then you've got the next level, um, and then you've got the next level of of knowledge, and and you can then build that into into all of that.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it it's really about, yeah, what exact experience have they got?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what can what what the the technicalities of what platforms might they be comfortable with and what systems are they using?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: That that does form a big part of it.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, what are they used to doing?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: How are they used to working?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do they collaborate with a financial planner?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do they challenge?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Have they built relationships?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do they get involved in real financial planning or do they just write reports for an ISA and a pension and uh and just and just follow and just do what they're told?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Being a power planner is quite well connected and obviously setting up the power planner club, you probably speak to a number of different power planners at varying stages in their career that have all had different experiences.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: Do you find that sometimes where there was such a huge demand for power planners and a distinct lack of fact-finding questions to establish what that experienced power planner actually have?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think there's been a lot of promotions, if you like, people who've got like a year's worth of power planner experience on a 25k salary, all of a sudden getting a 40k salary?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Has there been this kind of mismatch between salary increases and expectations of experience?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of talk about, you know, uh power planner salaries potentially being a bit overinflated.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think, yeah, I think I've experienced that and seen that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then also I've seen the the the sort of the other side of that as well of you know, firms just not willing to pay enough or someone, you know, like me, uh someone who's got all of that experience and and just and then uh you know adding so much more than just being a power planner.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's it's really difficult, you know, when you focus on on the money um side of it, it's it really restricts kind of the kind of person that you're going to get and uh to fill that job.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I think it's it's really difficult to kind of get that right because power planners are in demand.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we they absolutely firms need them, whether it's outsourced, whether it's in-house, you know, you need power planners quantifying the kind of power planner you want in your business, that's the difficult bit because really you need the power planning team to tell you what kind of power planner you need to add to that team.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you need to ask them what do they actually need.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the first thing they'll probably say is someone to lead us that is a power planner, uh, and then they'll say, But how much does that cost?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and they're not going to be writing reports.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that and then but then the you know, the owners, the the directors, the managers, they can just step back completely away from power planning and hold one person to account for how that team is running.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, and and and they are then responsible for you know making those journeys happen, that the progression happen as well.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: But these business owner managers that are more than likely financial advisors just don't want to spend 45 grand or 50 grand on hiring a head of finance, you know, a head of power planning who's not going to be report writing.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: They just don't want to do it and they can't afford it.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I can totally understand that.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: So you can see why the outsourced power planning model works.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it will work very, very well over the coming five to ten years.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because I do feel that the financial planning profession is in its infancy.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's not um established as profession as account to be solicitors, and I genuinely see it being a boom over the next five to ten years of almost startup.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like it's almost in a startup phase because a lot of these smaller firms will be jumping up, and there'll be huge amounts of confidence to do so because it's so easy to set your website up and set your stuff and join a network and grab a power planner.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: So people are going to be willing to do that, and people have got more uh confidence around personal branding, et cetera, to do that.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we're in this kind of boom area.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: And for those individuals, hiring a power planner is just not feasible.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's not feasible to do it.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: And they kind of want to work on a case-by-case basis or a contractual basis when they try things out.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: What I loved about what you said there as well is that a power planner who's out who's outsourced and as a company might have multiple people within that company of different varying levels of skill set, but also personality.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I love the fact that you said that you have to kind of challenge that financial planner, ask them questions to ascertain what type of power planner it is they actually require.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a hugely valuable thing that a lot of recruitment consultants can do.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they don't really truly fully understand or have the they're transactional in their approach.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've got something.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want to do you want to employ that?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's down to you to ask the questions.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it there is a you fill that gap between being able to really truly understand and challenge.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: based on experience of what that firm actually requires.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's very, very valuable.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a great, you know, if not, if you guys aren't doing that anyway, not to teach you to start eggs.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: That should be a huge focus, is just to educate financial planners.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right, well, you know, what is your power planning team looking like?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what do you understand the skills that you're missing?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: What's causing you pain?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: And all those kind of reality checks, isn't it, you know, that um that will really, really help them.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because some of the things I've done in my own business, like bringing in a finance director, has been like so valuable, you know, having somebody do all my finances and then report back to me every month with some lovely spreadsheets and send all the invoices off.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't have to do any of that.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it it just frees you up to do something completely different.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: And we've got sort of outsourced administration and in-house I've just started new marketing girls coming in to take over the marketing because as a business owner myself, I'm wearing the marketing hat and I'm fed up with it if I'm honest with you.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I've done it.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: I want to focus on relationships because that's what I love.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: I want to build some new client relationships and bring some money in because that's my area of expertise.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you know I I I have to go out and I have to be challenged by marketing agencies and you know marketers to tell me look um you need to let it go and you need to let us do it so you can use your time more effectively.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I can speak wholeheartedly that when you do that, it takes away a load of stress because you're not spinning as many plates and you're not putting as huge amount of pressure on yourself.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're not trying to do three jobs in one, you know and doing three jobs is fine if they are your choice that you want to do those jobs and that's what you're really good at and you love doing it.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't it's just about being really honest and going, I don't really care how much it costs for me to to to not do that job anymore because then I can do a what I love but also I might actually have a bit more free time if that's what if that's the goal as well.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah it's just about being really open and honest and just you know not seeing it as we not seeing it as something that I should be able to do myself as I'm a business owner.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's no need to do it.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know you you get somebody else to do it and that and as soon as you do that you see value immediately I I think anyway and uh and you know going back to the you know the point about um you know being honest with you know clients that we take on absolutely you know one of the first things I say to them is you know we will collaborate we you know you will be challenged it you know and and they they they're usually coming to us because that's exactly what we want um they they want they they're just you know usually just on their own um and they need a second opinion they need another voice someone to have a look at that file and make sure that that client is getting the best thing um as well as being compliant you know that's obviously a big thing but you know it's making sure that they are doing the right thing for their client because they know that that's absolutely what they want to do.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: They just need somebody else to just back that up.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sean oh going back over that then so you've gone through a power planner route of being power planner in in-house we call it in-house yeah working for a firm as a power planner worked your way up to like a power planner um manager weren't you essentially at one point now that's a that that was your experience now one thing I'm seeing um with the um outsourced firms growing is that they're also now hiring directly into their outsourced firms aren't they to be able to support growth of new clients now if someone was listening to this and one of them was on their first part of their journey, I want to become a power planner but I've got no experience, for example, so I want to start from the bottom do you think that type of person would be a good fit to go straight into an outsourced firm or do you think they should really go into a firm, learn what it's like to be within a firm's infrastructure and then go to an outsourced firm.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it could be done either way to be honest.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's uh outsourced firms depends on the size of the firm as to whether or not that's a practical step.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know we we've taken uh steps to to grow our business over the last year or so um uh where we have recruited people now the people that we've recruited are trainees effectively so they are they are in you know going down that journey of becoming a paraplanner um they're they're not kind of uh you know given cases too right without any supervision or any support or help at all that's exactly you know what they are you know what the where they're doing they're working on cases they've got you know us very much on hand so that we can help and support them and you know every case is you know a training opportunity pretty much um uh so you know for for us you know we're at the size now where you know taking on someone with less experience is more viable than it would have been with when you're just taking on your first or your second hire.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah so absolutely it could it you know it is an option.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Going into an outsourced power planning firm is a completely different thing than working in a financial planning firm.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: You do different things you have different relationships you you understand you only understand your own processes rather than the firm's processes.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there's lots of value to be added by going directly into a financial planning firm as long as it's the right financial planning firm and they they're aligned with your values and the attitudes and they you know treat you how you how you want to be treated and all that kind of stuff.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: So understanding the culture of that firm is going to be really important.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah there's there's a lot of value to be added um uh through that route as well um it doesn't have to be in a financial planning firm it could be something else that's you know more relevant uh for example that the new hires that we've taken on have come through banking um so experience in financial planning within banking but it's obviously very very different than financial planning firms um so uh so yeah so I think there's there's definite benefits for for for either route um taking someone on with no experience at all is is is a really difficult thing not not just for the employer not just for the assurance power planning employer but just for that person you know that journey that they've got to go through is going to be really really tough for them.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know they might have started their diploma they might have got their diploma but that really is just such a small part in the overall picture of what makes a power planner.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's it yeah it's it's just uh it's difficult to kind of comprehend that learning journey that they're going to have to go on.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them aren't prepared for that journey either that they kind of they've got the view wherever they've got that that view from that that they do the diploma and then suddenly they'll be given a job as a power planner and they'll earn 30 grand a year.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not the case.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: No as you know.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: No it's not and do you think there is you know the the a a beautiful transition would be almost I don't know somebody leaving university right and they embark on their journey into financial planning profession.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know and we talk about financial planner academies and that transition from uni into financial planning which is really really hard you know it doesn't just grow on trees jobs job opportunities like that.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: Then there are things like the apprenticeship levy and and and training and development and funding that's going towards that now.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think it would ever be like that for power planners do you think someone would like hear about a power planning role at university and then say that's what I want to do if I have my way yes that that that's exactly what I want uh you know and and that's what we kind of see as well through the PowerPlanner club and you know uh communities like NextGen.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know that a lot we there's interest coming into the um the power planning or the financial planning world um but it's very much like oh yeah I've decided I want to be a financial planner because they've only heard about financial planners they haven't heard about power planning.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why they haven't heard about it, but then that's obviously because power planners aren't shouting loud enough about it.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that's another reason why something you know something like the PowerPlanner club it's not the only reason but you know things like that we would just want to promote being awesome at doing power planning but also having that as a profession.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because we do get you know people applying for the PowerPlanner club scheme on the basis that they want to be a financial planner.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not really what we're aligned to do.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: But when we talk about we talk talk about it with them they they sort of say oh actually you know what you're saying that is more aligned to what I want to do because again it's down to personality type it's down to well what what do you see yourself doing what do you like doing on a day-to-day basis?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know one of the famous questions is do you like spreadsheets or does that horrify you?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if they say oh actually I quite like spreadsheet work well being a financial planner it might not be the job for you then because most of them do not like spreadsheets for a very good reason because that's the job of the power planner to to really like you know spending those hours on a spreadsheet making sure that you've got all of those all of that data in there it's all right and correct um and then you can worry about actually what is what's the financial plan for the client rather than the data.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah that's yeah it's one of the ability to challenge somebody's beliefs and what they think they should be doing.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we all have this idea in our head based on what we see around us as we're growing up.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: I certainly went through that that you know to get the money to get the house to get the car I need to be doing the thing that is the shiniest you know I have to be you know I have to be out there selling I have to be a financial advisor the thing that looks glitz and the glamour.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: And actually deep down inside it's they're just not suited to that.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's about challenging somebody on what they think they should be doing on really what they are intrinsically supposed to do.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: What makes them exactly being really honest with yourself about what what are you good at or what do you want to be good at and what will make you happy you know it all comes down to being happy.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: What is going to make you happy as a person for some people it is I you know I love selling that's my passion.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Fine okay go out and do do selling then that's that financial planning as being a financial planner might well be for you then it's not the only thing about the job but um it sounds like that you know you've got that drive to to be able to want to do that.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah it's it it's definitely not suited for everyone.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah it is down it's down to promotion it's down to how come are these these graduates are hearing about becoming a financial planner but they're not hearing about becoming a power planner.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well let's talk about that because you've set up the Power Planner Club haven't you?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes yeah and and it's not it's not the the the main objective to it to to make that happen but it's certainly part of it.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay so what is the what is what's the objective of the PowerPlanner club?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: Why did you set it up?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to probably the the discussion we had uh you know quite a while ago about um you know the route of becoming a power planner specifically within financial planning firms it just is it's very it's great uh to be uh you know if if if you're lucky really um so there's usually not a route there um for uh you know an administrator or someone coming in at entry level to then become uh a power planner um and to actually go through that route there's usually nobody kind of overseeing that that the training of them um because they don't need TNC uh you know to be a power planner um so um so yeah so that that was really lacking and also you know I and I've seen this time after time you know you're if you're an administrator and a power planner that's what you want to that's what you want to be you have no kind of you're not outward drive to be a financial planner you're just left there um and uh uh and and they need somebody somewhere to go to that is going to help them to achieve what they want to achieve.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: It might be in that firm it might be that they do actually then end up wanting to be a financial planner but they haven't got the confidence or or you know even the support or anything in that firm to know exactly what they want to do.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just providing that that support to people that want to be awesome power planners and that could be somebody that's not even in the industry and that thinks that that might be for them.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: It could be somebody that's uh you know already a senior power planner that that then has aspirations to go and do something else whether it's you know going moving into outsourced or just they want to take that next step up which could be slightly outside of power planning you know working in uh in in financial planning firms kind of more at board level or things like that.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the real the real kind of aim and and what that really looks like is one-to-one mentoring.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we match up mentors and mentees that apply to the scheme uh and and give them a space a safe space so they can talk about um uh what they need and what they what they're getting or not getting at the at this moment in time and how they're going to get there.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Having a mentee or being a mentor and both is hugely powerful.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've experienced that myself.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: And take away the money aspect of it so nobody gets any financial gain out of it and you're doing it completely altruistically is huge because the mentor learns by teaching.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and the mentee then becomes a mentor and there goes the cycle and you build this lovely community of people that are looking out for each other and supporting each other in a kind and compassionate way that is going to help each other.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's hugely valuable.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: So what you're doing isn't isn't you're not making money out of it are you?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing yeah absolutely absolutely and it's because I see that there is an absolute need for it to to happen.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you know and going back to our sort of other conversation about you know building power planning as a profession and building it as something that is seen as more of a collaboration that will only happen if we build groups of power planners that are confident that are you know generally a more senior level because they they have they've built that confidence they've got that experience and now having a group of mentors you know those those are people that are in that group they are the comp the the more confident power planners because we are a different personality type we we might well be confident but we're mostly um quite internal um not extroverted so we're not going to put ourselves out there um you know I for me and we did personality testing uh the other day and we were talking about it uh on the webinar that we ran this week um uh you know for me I'm I'm pretty much in the balance I'm just slightly over um introvert rather than extrovert but some of the um mentors that we've got you know they were mostly on the kind of 75% introverted um some up to 97% introverted so and but that doesn't and that doesn't surprise me but because they they're more confident that they are happy to kind of get involved in speaking out to to let people know what power planners are about.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the you know going back to getting people into the industry seeing power planning as an option if they hear from us then they will know that we're a thing um that they they might be interested and might get involved in.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: No a hundred percent and nobody sort of stands out really massively to me as being that kind of face if you like of power planning face of the financial plan you know face of the power planning profession.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think um if you can build upon that and bring bring bring people through it but also kind of um uh train them and develop them perhaps about how they can speak about their services, promote themselves on social media as well, which a lot of people feel uncomfortable to do obviously especially if you're more of an introvert type person then not only is that going to sort of grow the group and create a more better stronger community but it's just going to get that that that that opportunity you know get the the role out there in front of the right people so they do consider it um as a viable career option and don't it doesn't get overshadowed by the financial planet role which I believe is important but doesn't get over doesn't get overshadowed.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: But it gives people the choice doesn't it's like well what where am I who am I what type of personality am I what where would I be best where where would I best fit?
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I think um if if you can help somebody earlier on to make that choice then perhaps they won't waste um or feel as uh resentful about wasting as much time doing the thing they don't want to do.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen financial planners doing a financial planner job and absolutely you know you can tell as an experienced power planner they need to be in a power planning team.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need they shouldn't be a financial planner and they're in a rut now because they're getting all of that pressure they they don't want they're not in a job which they like that they might be earning the salary that they need so can they afford to take that step back which is where the money can comes in um which they shouldn't have to because we should be paid equally anyway um so it's a really difficult uh yeah it's a it's a difficult thing to sort of comprehend and and I think for you know from my motivations about um uh doing the PowerPlanner club or doing things like this even you know does this feel natural to me getting on uh you know putting myself out there not completely because I'm not I you know I'm not extroverted um but do I need to do it to build a profession?
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and I want by do it by me doing it it might then you know uh encourage others to do it as well that are in power planning so and the more um that the industry uh hears about um from power planners and the more people that are encouraged to come in because they've they've heard about power planning the better so it's it's kind of just always telling myself well that's the reason why I'm doing it um uh and uh and just yeah and just just getting it out there.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: How can people join the PowerPlanner Club?
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a website um so uh if they if they are somebody that wants to be a mentor they can apply to be a mentor with us uh um myself and Chloe so Chloe uh is uh the co-founder co-director along with me so we set it up together uh we would have a chat with them to make sure that they uh you know they understand the commitment of it because you know like we said already it's you know it's it's nobody gets paid for any of this stuff um uh it's it's doing it from uh because you want to do it um so it's just about making sure that they they understand that commitment um uh and uh and then and then they're they're a right fit you know they have to have a certain level of um experience of um building relationships um uh you know someone that they their mentor mentees will feel comfortable with so we would we would talk to them to make sure that they they understand that and they're a right fit for um uh being a mentor with us um and then mentees we you know we we have uh the the applications come through thick and fast again through our website um uh and you just you can you apply we we then um uh make sure that you know again we're we're we're a right fit you know if they say I want to be a financial planner or I've got some other kind of need um uh for um and that's why I've approached you then it might not be um then you know we might not be for them but if we are then we send them kind of a bit of a values questionnaire um uh to um to really set them up so that when when they have the meeting with their mentor they've got something to talk about.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: They've had some deep thinking time where they can really understand what their values are, why you know why are they coming to us, what do they actually want, and then the mentor or mentee can explore that together in in their meetings.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of that that's how people apply for the scheme.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: Generally what it looks like is when when the mentor and the mentee are matched up then they have uh regular meetings usually sort of once a month at lunchtime or remotely because we've tried to make it as as accessible as possible and and we know that power planners you know being you know chained to our desk in an office you have a lunch break so at least you should be able to uh you know use that to have a meeting if you wanted to um so uh so that's we we've set it up as as sort of easily as we possibly can no barriers to entry um for anybody that actually needs it and then and then going forward that they just they they agree with their mentor how often they need a meeting um and most of them that have been with us for a while are moving out to kind of you know having a meeting every couple of months or three months or on an ad hoc basis just as and when needed fantastic great so it's there it's accessible there's a website I'll put all of that in the links as well so people can um take a look and see how they can join the club.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that sounds fantastic.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: Excellent Sean thank you so much for your time today thanks for running us through you know an outline of your career and um some of your thoughts and feelings around the power planner role the career of and the ups and downs and the things that we need to consider really from both sides being a financial planner and being a power planner and the difference really being in-house over to the um the outsourced power planning side and I think we're both in huge agreement aren't we that there is it's it's a great profession.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_03: The financial planning profession is great.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely and it's not just about financial advice there's a great deal to be done in other roles and they alone we grow as well we're not even talking about the marketing side anymore you know that's growing massively for these firms some of the tech elements as well is going to be growing but fundamentally what is considered to be the backbone of these firms by I from the saying the things that I from talking to power planners good quality power planners is a power planner.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know and they're going to be the guys and girls that are going to be supporting the newbie financial advisors to make sure that they're ticking the right boxes and giving the right advice.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly exactly couldn't agree more fabulous Sean thank you so much for your time today.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome Sam nice to talk to you.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: Cheers