Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Maggie Jones

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Guest: Maggie Jones · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to System Speak, a podcast about Complex Trauma and Dissociation. It's our story, our learning, and the ideas we've been working with as they've unfolded over time. Earlier episodes give context for where we are now, and current episodes may engage more advanced material, harder content, or reference earlier conversations. A few things to remember as you listen. The podcast is education, reflection, and storytelling.
• 0:41
  It's not therapy, and listening doesn't create a relationship. Although I am a therapist, I am not in that role here, and nothing that I share is individualized clinical advice. Every system, every internal world, all of your own stories are all different and you take up your own shape. What we share about ours won't translate directly to yours. It isn't meant to.
• 1:06
  We're all different, and all of our stories matter. As always, take care of yourself during and after listening, and we are so glad you're here. Hello. Hello.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: I'm such a fan. I'm such a fan girl.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: You're so funny. It's been a long time. I'm happy to see you again.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Me too. Me too. And I'm just I'm still so grateful that you talked to me for the story because I think it gave the story, like, just important credibility. Like, your voice is so important. And so I'm really grateful.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: That's very kind. Well, just so you know, your words meant a lot. That credibility currently under attack. Oh my goodness. Okay.
• 2:13
  I want to be really respectful of your time. I am so excited to talk to you today. If you would like just for listeners to orient themselves to the sound of your voice, if you would like to introduce yourself however you want to do so to get us started.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Sure. I am Maggie Jones and I'm a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine. I also teach writing at the University of Pittsburgh and I have covered stories related to psychology and medicine for many years.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: How did you get started in that just generally? And then specifically for us, this story, of course, how did you decide to write about DID specifically?
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I think generally I have always been interested in mental health issues. I'm interested in medicine generally. And so, you know, over the years I've done a story about teens and suicidality and other mental health stories that really have just been about curiosity, about wanting to understand something more and trying to figure out a story that will allow me to do that, which isn't always easy. The bar at the magazine is very high. And for this story in particular, I had a friend, I do have a friend who is a psychologist who was starting to see more dissociative disorders than she'd seen before.
• 3:47
  Not because they didn't exist before, because her sort of mind got oriented toward them as she had patients with dissociative disorders, including DID. And she kept talking to me about, she was in this process of learning and I was really curious. And there was a client of hers who had made a lot of progress, who was willing to talk to me just off the record background. And it was one of the most interesting interviews I'd ever done. She was so thoughtful and so articulate and could explain what I found so confusing so easily.
• 4:24
  And so I just started to dig into it more. And I will say it was one of those stories where I was doing a ton of learning. I knew nothing about DID. I mean, I knew stereotypes kind of, and from film, but I didn't really know anything substantial. And so, and the longer I worked at it, sometimes the more confused I became, but it took a while to come out of the other side where I felt like, oh, I get this now.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. It's such an, like, I can't find words because I am in awe that you had that first interview knowing so little and then did this article so well because it really was in so many ways so well done and showed such an understanding. And to write an article, have to talk to all the different kinds of people and cover all the different sides and all of that. So you did so much work. What was this process even like?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, it was it was a long one. It was probably the story that has taken me the longest of my life. I mean, I'm never doing one thing. I'm writing other stories and I'm teaching, but but I think, you know, really to translate it to readers, you have to understand it far better than if you were talking to a friend on a walk about it. And so it was an incredibly long process.
• 6:02
  I think Bethany Brand was my first call and then probably Melissa Kaufman was about my second. And I was just trying to figure out what's the story I can tell. And in some ways I really just wanted to tell a story of this is what DID is, this is what DID is not. Here are some people who can sort of explain the experience, both psychologists and people living with the disorder. And so it was, I will tell you, it was not a pretty process.
• 6:35
  I wrote many drafts and it took a long time. And I think it took especially long because I was just, I'm always obsessed with getting it right, but it's so easily easy to get DID wrong that I was particularly, I was just acutely aware of avoiding missteps and having to be able to explain the brain and explain it so that I really understood it and that I could break it down for readers without, you know, that was just gonna overwhelm them.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: You talked to professionals in the field, you talked to critics of the field, you talked to people with lived experience and really were able to put things into words like you were on a walk with a friend and translating. That's one of the things I feel like we try to do on System Speak is translate the information that's there into, not just to make it easily understood or digestible, but to reconnect it back to the humanity of people. And I experienced that in your article.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That is so true. And, you know, I never wanted to do a story and the New York Times magazine wouldn't have done a story that was a bunch of psychologists and scientists and critics just sort of hashing it out. I mean, the most important thing for me is always to convey a narrative. And that narrative relies on people who have lived the experience.
• 8:27
  I have not lived the experience. I can't pretend to know what it is like. I can only come into some understanding by talking to lots and lots of people. There's not a monolithic experience, but they're often themes. And one of the things that had worried me from the start is, know, was I going to be able to find people who trusted me and would talk to me in-depth and be vulnerable, which is really hard to do.
• 8:55
  And it always makes me extremely protective of sources in that way and cautious about how I use them. But but it's right. A story like this is nothing. I'm not writing it for Nature magazine or some some, you know, health journal or a a scientific study or, anything like that. It's it it just won't work without the people who can really share their experience.
• 9:26
  And I can be sort of, you know, some kind of interpreter in between the reader who knows nothing and the person sharing the experience. And I'm often saying when I interview somebody, so do I have this right? Because I think I'm hearing it one way, but I'm often repeating it back to them at some point in the interview or a later interview to make sure I'm really understanding what I think I understand.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I think it was scary to talk to you at first. I make that sense. When I actually was connected with you through a colleague who I'm going to leave nameless at this point, but when that person approached me and said, Hey, there's this, there's a journalist, there's an interviewer, I think you've got very many titles before it was all over with. Asking questions and also here are the kinds of questions they asked and here is what it was like for me and I trust them and here's why I trust her. And I don't know that I could have done it without that.
• 10:39
  I think there have been so many experiences of being doxxed or harassed or, the difficulties of feeling safe online, that it makes that vulnerability even more complicated because we're already sharing the most vulnerable pieces and balancing, protecting even deeper, more vulnerable pieces. And so to add publicity on top of that at all was terrifying. What was that like for you trying to navigate that with folks through this process?
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I've really understood why it was terrifying. I mean, I knew about the doxing. I knew that, you know, I knew from my own experience of saying at a party, I'm working on a story about DID and people being like, yeah, that's not real or that doesn't exist. And you know, there's a certain amount of, okay, I'm going to try and explain what I know and then, or I'm just not. But, but I, so I was experiencing the lack of understanding.
• 11:45
  And so, you know, I knew the combination of the experiences people have had in childhood and then the experiences they've had in adulthood and people who had told, I mean, at the Healing Together conference, I met people who had told no one or people who had only told their spouse or only told their therapist. And so to talk to New York Times journalists and have it be in print is completely reasonable to think that's not a fun, great idea for them. And there are only certain things I can do as opposed to some other publication that might be able to use pseudonyms or create composite characters. We can't do any of that at the New York Times. The one thing I can do is sometimes leave out a detail that feels identifying, where somebody lives, or things that aren't actually important to the story, but that provide some protection.
• 12:45
  And, you know, I review those things with people in the story, especially when I know somebody is in a vulnerable space, I wanna make sure, like, we're okay with this, but not this. And, you know, the story would never have really gotten off the ground if nobody with a lived experience was willing to talk to me. And my general experience is that often the people who are willing to talk want somebody to get it right, want somebody to actually explain what this is. And so that takes a lot of trust. And I remember you had said something like somebody had basically said I was okay.
• 13:27
  Right? But even then you don't really know. Right? It's still that process of, know, am I gonna flip around and have a totally different take? And sometimes people ask me about what I, what my take is on a story.
• 13:43
  And, you know, if they asked me about this story, wasn't that I had a take. I just wanted to sort of show the lived experience and explain it as best I could.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: You did that so beautifully. When you were just sharing just now, you mentioned healing together and you did attend healing together. What were you expecting before you went there? What were you concerned about? And what was that actually like from your perspective?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: So the reason I even knew about it, it wasn't coming across my radar, I don't think. And Melissa Kaufman had said to me, you should really attend. It's really interesting and it is a community and that can be hard to find. And so I went with not many expectations. I didn't know a whole lot about it, but I had talked to Jamie Pollock who runs it.
• 14:39
  And she talked about, you know, ground rules for she was gonna tell people, which I appreciated that I was there and they could seek me out if they wanted to. And I would leave them alone if they didn't wanna be interviewed. And I thought it was amazing. I mean, it was completely different from the rest of my reporting. I'm just, you know, meeting with or talking to people on the phone.
• 15:04
  I'm talking to a bunch of experts. And then and it's quite different from the average conference, you know, medical conference or something like that that I might go to. It's so much more community involved. I will say, as Jamie Pug knows well, I was tearing more than once because I found things so moving, especially, and we can explain this if you want for the audience, but that when she does her final thing, which isn't my story about
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yes. The
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: bee, the sense of community. I mean, partly if I'd gone to that at the very beginning of reporting, I wouldn't have gotten it as much, but I already was understanding how isolating living with DID can be. And then you go into this conference and people are talking in a way that they say, like, I've never been able to talk to this. I've never been around somebody else with who has DID. I, you know, I feel less lonely.
• 16:05
  And Larry Rule, who gave a talk about how do you leave this conference and go back and still feel the community and he gave two really amazing talks. And so I got in a different way than I would have at the at the outset. And I really moved first and foremost by the sense of going from isolation into a community of people who at least share some of the experiences of other people living with DID.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: That particular conference that you're referencing with Larry, I think is one of my favorite ones so far.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: So Larry makes me cry. I'm very fond of Larry, but he gave two talks and they both were like, I was kind of slayed by both and, you know, found him and introduced myself to him and, and just liked him from the get go.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm gonna tell him I got to talk to you. I am so delighted that that is the year you got to go. I think I had not connected that and I'm so grateful. It was so safe, it was so authentic, it was so good, and it was so true to the community. And I love that that is what you got to experience.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I felt very lucky. Felt, and I really, I was sick in this little love fest for Larry Ruehl. He's an incredible speaker and he's, and we've remained friends and it was, it just was a gift. I feel very lucky too, that that was the year. I mean, were other great speakers in, but he really, really stuck out.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Wow. Okay. You have referenced the biggest piece of this article, which is that it was a bit of an experience similar to being a Swiftie in that you were there, you were out there, you were doing things, talking to people, there were these Easter eggs that something was happening. We knew it was coming. We could tell it was coming.
• 18:20
  We were braced for it coming and also when it finally came, it was such a huge surprise and shocker, so much more than we ever imagined. I never would have guessed in a million years that the article was going to be about Doctor. Melissa Kaufman.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it's started off as Melissa Kaufman. I mean, that's the thing. Melissa and I have talked about this, especially when you're talking about sort of big magazine stories, they start off one way and then they go through an editing and talking editing process and they shift a little bit. So there were a couple different drafts where she was more and less prominent. And it was one editor at the magazine who said, I just think we wanna be with Melissa's story throughout.
• 19:08
  Yeah. Which is not, it's not totally Melissa's story. Not everything is about Melissa. There are sections that don't have her in it, but but, actually, I'm not even sure. I'm not even sure there is there are sections without her in it at all.
• 19:22
  And I, in the end, was just so glad that that felt right. It's one of those things as a writer, writing for readers where it's appealing to hold onto one character and get to know that character. And Melissa had this big trajectory of her personal life, but also her professional life. So she was, she's a scientist and a clinician and a true expert in the field who just had this great perspective from both sides that really helped me and helped the story a lot. I will say, as an aside, helped me.
• 20:08
  I cannot tell you how many times I called her and said, wait, is this, do I have this right? She was extraordinarily patient. There are few people that I did that with, but she was definitely one of the main ones.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: I so appreciate her presence in the story. As a professional, as a person with lived experience, as someone learning to navigate that safely for myself and for others, to be able to authentically and vulnerably share our stories in ways that are also both boundaried and still helpful, I think is so powerful. And the story as it came out really accomplished that.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I mean, I think one of the things was, I don't know how much I was thinking about it at the time, but you know, in the story, and Melissa talks about this, when she was in therapy, she read and reread Robert Oxnard's memoir, A My Life with Multiple Personality Disorder, and how much it helped her to feel like there was somebody like you, like her. And in a way, I don't write as a journalist knowing that there will be any change or help that I provide in writing a story. I would like to think that's true. Sometimes that's true, sometimes that's not.
• 21:50
  But I think the gift that Melissa gave readers in this story was telling in detail about her story and her healing and what it was like so that, you know, I would hope that some people recognize, and not just through Melissa, through other people as well in the story, that they would recognize some part of themselves and see how people are extraordinarily accomplished and also how hard it is, what setbacks there are and all of that. You know, it's partly it's for all readers and it's for the reader who knows nothing. But I also hope it's for the reader who feels like, you know, like some people who go to healing together who have never been in a room with other people who are experiencing what they experienced and that, you know, hopefully the article can maybe do that for some people as well.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I love how you just described that, that there is this concept that so many of us with complex trauma forget honestly or are conditioned to not see that we can be accomplished and unfinished. There's so many of us in the community who have survived by over functioning in so many ways, and to learn how to relax that really can be part of healing. And so to be vulnerable and to share stories and to be human in them, I think is critical for us, a critical part of our healing. I love that you mentioned Robert Oxon. He was one of the first lived experience guests we had on the podcast.
• 23:38
  And I'm so grateful to have gotten to known him while I could and grateful for his friendship and mentorship. Absolutely.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: First, I just love accomplished and unfinished and that's so, you know, I know how you mean it specifically to people live with complex trauma and it's also, which I think lots of things in this story can be, are just, that is human, that is human nature, right? That we are accomplished and unfinished, or lots of us were always unfinished. And there is, you know, I kind of bristled when people would say to me, Oh, I think we all have a little bit of DID. I'm like, well, I don't know if we have a little bit of DID, but people who do not have dissociative disorders that they recognize, right, we all have self states, we all have various, and lots of people have trauma who do not have dissociative disorders, but lots of us have a varying degree of living with dissociation. And so, in ways that there is some of all of us in a story like that, I think that's helpful too.
• 24:55
  I mean, that is one of the things I'm trying to do is narrow the gap between there's, oh, those people who have DID and me, not meaning me, Maggie Jones, the reader and oh, I'm not like that at all. Right. You might not be really like that. You may not have the same experience, but there is just a humanness in all of this.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that's part of the reality of it is how human we are and that can exist outside or beyond our identity with our identities. Having that connection of we may think different or experience the world different or function differently or process differently because of dissociation, and also we are still just people. And even if we're people with peoples, there's still just that humanity. And that is what I saw in the article too, was the humanity of all of us.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Right. And that gets so lost in, you know, so many caricatures of DID. I mean, that was partly you know, we didn't wanna get into a big long thing about civil or films that terribly portray DID, but but that was the other thing I had in the back of my head is like not falling into that trap. That's the exact opposite of what I wanna convey here. And that, it's been so in media, DID has been so othered as opposed to, you're sitting next to somebody who has DID or a severe dissociative disorder, whatever, it's not another kind of human being, which is often how it's been portrayed in the media.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I love that you brought this up because I feel like to me in some ways your article is in, like brings even Sybil full circle. Not to get into the weeds or too far in a side quest, but the same person who told me that you were safe enough for me to talk to if I wanted to was also friends with Cornelia Wilbur. And they told me how one of the things we forget in hindsight when we're just seeing the media of a movie or something like that is also the context at the time and how early and originally women couldn't even get published. Like, they wouldn't accept what she was trying to write, even just because of being a woman. In fact, the first articles, when I was looking at what they were telling me and they were sending me the links, the first articles ended up being group articles because there had to be men on the team to get the publishing done.
• 28:04
  And so anytime we have to move towards sharing a story in safe enough ways where people can handle the receiving of them, and those kinds of things having to be changed because of context. I even when I wrote my memoir, also having collaborative work with other survivors and collaborative work with another, two actually, but another lived experience person who had also written their memoir, and working together to make the story palatable enough that people can receive it because there's such horrific things to say when you're telling a story like that. And then also going through, I went through editing with someone who's actually on the ethics advisory for the National Association of Social Workers because I was so concerned about what I was turning over to the community. So even my memoir, aside from what is facts and what is metaphor and what is compilation and what is, collaboration and all of that into trying to tell my story in a safe enough way that is safe for me and people to receive, which we do every episode of System Speak is like that, while also actively still doing therapy on any of the pieces of it.
• 29:38
  And so I think part of what was so beautiful about the article ending up with the focus on Melissa Kaufman is how it really brings this full circle moment to where you are this, I mean, it makes me cry. I don't know if I can even say the whole sentence, where you as a woman are publishing this article. Melissa Kaufman as a woman scientist is sharing the story. And also we're able to receive it in this very, not that it's simplistic at all, but in article form, right? Not this lengthy of a book or this or that.
• 30:16
  And not that those things wouldn't be welcome, but the beauty of what you brought full circle, I think even in historical context is profound in a way that has not yet been honored or realized.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Emma, that is so generous. And I really haven't thought about it that way. And, but I think I really appreciate it. And I mean, it's interesting about, I mean, I could have written so much about civil and, you know, you have to understand a lot to even write a little, but even that story and how it how reduced it's been and how simplistic it's been about, you know, it's all bad. It's all good, whatever.
• 30:56
  It's It does a disservice to all the forces, some of which you're mentioning that are going on at the same time in terms of sexism, where we are in history, who gets to tell a story. I think that's really, really important and I really appreciate it.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I mean it so much. What, sorry, still crying. What were some of the hard pieces for you or the risks that you were concerned about? What can you, however carefully, share about what that was like for you? Because it's a real piece of being out and you being out as connected to the story and Melissa Kaufman coming out as she did so publicly.
• 31:45
  What what was that like?
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I was very concerned about Melissa. I felt I needed, you know, she needed outs if she wanted them. I felt, I mean, not that she asked for outs. I'm just saying that I felt as reporter, you know, nobody's on the hook because they talk to me, especially for something like this. If, if they get cold feet and feel vulnerable.
• 32:14
  And I felt that with several people in this story, that this story, even though I felt good about who needed their identities not traceable or that it was still a risk for people to have sort of talked about things. You know, what is there some part of some person who's trying to, like, be a good sport and because somebody referred me to them and that it can be quite different for even for me to go over the sections that are about somebody and then to see it in print. And I can't totally control that. I can do my ethical part. I can go over things with people.
• 33:07
  I can, you know, ask them if they feel safe, but does that mean that they're gonna feel okay when it comes out in print? You know, I went over things extraordinarily carefully with Melissa, but but it's you know, what's the cumulative effect when you read I mean, nobody gets to read New York Times stories. So it wasn't like I was sending it out to, you know, 15 people with lived experiences and saying, what do you think? And so there's always the concern. Well, there's the concern of sort of getting it right, but somehow not getting it right in the entirety.
• 33:46
  But with this story, there was, for me, a particular concern with some people about, was it just gonna be hard for them to read their story in print? That wasn't what I thought about Melissa because she was so involved and so, you know, she sort of knew everything, what was going in and all of that. But, but, you know, I worried like she had worried about what is this, you know, she's a prominent scientist, an expert in this field, and we have so many stereotypes and prejudices about mental illnesses and she thought very carefully about this and yet who knows, right? It's out of her control and out of my control. So as much as any story I've done, I just felt concerned.
• 34:39
  As you well know, they're sort of within the DID communities. There are different people who have different opinions about everything. And my job isn't to make everybody happy. I can't do that, and I'm a journalist at the end of the day. But I wanted to sort of respect the different opinions.
• 34:59
  And the truth is I can't cover everything, even in a long cover story like this. I'll never do everyone justice, but I wanna be fair. And I want for people who have been very vulnerable in sharing my story, who have a history of trauma to not be traumatized.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that so much. I know even whether it's articles or books or things I've done, there's so much that happens outside your control with editing. Like you didn't know it would end up as an article about Melissa. And the consent in that is such a big deal. My triplets who are adopted, so they're not actual triplets, but they've grown up together as triplets, have been turning 18 this year.
• 35:47
  And a couple of them are like, no, I still wanna be on the podcast and I want all my episodes up and I want da da da. And it's like, and also how do I know you understand what that means or how that puts you at risk? And some of them have been attacked and had like fallout because of that, that was just heartbreaking. And so it's like, how do It's one thing when I'm just doing it for myself and I'm at risk as a writer or as speaker on System Speak, like the voice of System Speak, but to also invite people with lived experience or you or other professionals onto System Speak and to have them as guests. Or when my children want to participate and they're like, I'm 18, I can decide that for myself.
• 36:39
  And also, there's always these caveats of safety is more important than anything. And also in therapy, we've done a lot of talking about some of these attacks and things naturally exploit the trauma we've already had and sort of lead us into this place of wanting to go back into the turtle shell of, Oh, I never should have said anything to anyone. I never should have da da da. But that is re traumatizing and it's not helpful. And as I face that and as I navigate the fear and the concerns of things, what happens is actually a greater opening up than before.
• 37:20
  Of, no, I want to say my things, I want to move about freely in the world, and I have a right to be here. And so I think some of the things that have been the scariest and the hardest have actually been the most liberating and the most important to my healing.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: That's really great. And I do think, I think that can be true and it can also go the other way, right? I mean, it's because we don't know until it happens. Right? And I, you you can ask Melissa on another episode of how she feels about that of like, you know, I mean, I think she I I know she thinks it was all worth it in the end, but but, you know, it could have I mean, one of the things I do as a journalist is sort of say, here are the pieces I've read.
• 38:12
  And I noticed in this story with sources, it seemed like more sources than ever, like knew my body of work. And I think it's like, yeah, we have to check her out. Is she safe? Does it seem like she's done sort of hit jobs in the past? But I do think it's right.
• 38:33
  And there wasn't a big uprising of critics about this story. Would that have felt different to people or, you know, people have gotten doxxed. And even if I'd written it exactly the same and whatever, you know, somebody's in a mood or or the winds have shifted a little bit and there's more criticism of DID or something takes place on TikTok. And that's scary because you can't control it. I also think just like you, that a lot of people feel like, wow, I thought this was so scary.
• 39:05
  And actually it just feels good to tell my story in the context of a safe quote unquote story that isn't trying to exploit people.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: It's an opportunity for growth as they say.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Yes. Hopefully, yes.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: But absolutely terrifying and the risk is very real. Like, I don't mean to minimize that at all.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, and I just wanna be clear, like the, you know, I can't remember how you put it about, right, things get edited. I mean, I wouldn't do this for certain publications because the New York Times edits me, but it is my story. I mean, there are certain things like images that I don't really have control of because that's in the art department. I can have some input, but I largely have to trust them or headlines, which I do get a pass on, but only to some extent.
• 40:02
  But, you know, I even was wary at one point about really should Melissa be the centerpiece and you know, will it be okay? But in the end I thought that was the right thing to do. I thought it made the story come more alive. And, but, you know, it depends. I mean, you were, you were right to check me out.
• 40:26
  People are right to check journalists out, whether it's because somebody else has already talked to them or because of their body of work.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: What was it like for you when the story went live and it got published? I want to ask you that before you go.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: It was always an intense story from the moment I started and the long time that I took to do it. And I did feel emotional about it because I felt like people had trusted me and that's not, I mean, that's what I do. I, you know, I talk to people about intimacy of lives, this is just was on a different level. And I don't do this often, but when I heard the story was shipped, like you cannot touch it, it's done, I cried because I just felt like I had been it also was the most seamless fact checking I've ever had because I had been so, so careful with this story. And I was so, I just protective and probably as it turns out overly so, but just protective of what people had shared with me.
• 41:44
  And so I was, in the end, I was really, I mean, I expected more blowback, to be honest. And I was really pleasantly surprised about the smart, interesting reader comments. And, I mean, Melissa and I sort of laughed about it because it was like, you know, I was so cautious. And in some ways, I think it made it a better story. I mean, again, this is like what I'm always aiming to do, but that carefulness made it made it a better story.
• 42:24
  And I just expected more, you know, more pushback, more criticism, whether earned or not. And that's also part of my job. I mean, you know, readers comments can be all over the place and that's fine. And people can criticize me, and that's my job to take it. And I always answer readers' emails.
• 42:50
  And but it was it was it was a lovely experience also because I heard from so many people, both people who were living with dissociative disorders, including DID and from therapists who felt like it was so useful to the field. And so, you know, I'm incredibly glad I did it. It was a true labor of love more than maybe any story has been. You know what I would say all the time is everybody in this field is so kind and patient and interesting and would explain things over and over to me. Or I just felt like it was an unusually generous group of people I was talking to.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Aw, I'm so glad that's the experience you had. I think criticism is always part of writing. It's part of editing for sure. I think that it's also another opportunity for remembering that even the criticism isn't always about us. The only, like, sucker punch I had with the article was at the end when she talked about, she mentioned about, or you mentioned about integration.
• 44:14
  And I was like, oh man, but not because what you said was wrong, was because like I still need to go to therapy because I'm not finished, But still want
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: idea wasn't that you had to integrate, right?
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Right, no, it was very careful and respectful, but still just like that reminder of, Oh, I can't just stop, like I'm not done. And I don't mean that that's my goal, I don't mean that that's what means I'm done. I just meant like it was awareness of, Oh yeah, I forgot I had a system. Oh yeah, I still dissociate. Oh yeah, I still need to go to therapy.
• 44:48
  It was just a reality check kind of moment. And so it made me, after almost holding my breath for the article, for the whole article, it made me then laugh at myself because my body did so many things when I just even read the word.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: That's interesting. I mean, that was really important to me as you might imagine that I not, you know, act like, you know, because I learned this. I learned this from people with living with DID, right? I mean, you're my job as a journalist is I could have one idea going into it and then I'm I'm learning. People are teaching me all the time.
• 45:29
  And so I knew nothing going in about integration, not integration, whatever. But but that part was super interesting to me. Like, you know, that that that wasn't the holy grail for lots of people and didn't have to be, and there was more than one way to do this. And yeah.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I just so appreciate your presence in this timing of my life. We met right as I was leaving Oklahoma and the story came out and we talked about what that was like right as I was arriving where I live now and everything that happened in between, like I am so grateful for the things I learned from you, for the courage you gave me opportunity to practice and for the sitting with myself in ways that much like you're saying about how Melissa felt with Robert Oxnam, or some people say about the podcast of it was my turn to feel like I was not alone. And I so appreciate you and your work. Thank you so much.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Emma. I want to just I'm gonna fit and roll with you for a minute. So my friend who's the therapist, I think introduced me to System Speak. And so I, you know, I have not made it through all the episodes, but I was listening to those episodes where she was telling me like, Oh, you should listen to this one. Because that was really, really part of my education.
• 47:07
  And then for some reason I thought, Will Emma ever talk to me? Like, how do I get in with that? And I was so delighted when, you agreed to talk to me. It was like, yes. I'm so like, I just knew you would have really interesting things to say, and I really respected that piece that you wrote.
• 47:27
  I'm not gonna remember what journal it was in that I'd read pretty early on at somebody's recommendation, about DID. And so you were part of I mean, more than in your quotes, you were part of this story and my learning curve.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, that would make me cry. I really am so glad and so grateful you talked to us today.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Emma. It's totally my pleasure.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and healing brings hope.