Latest / Pittsburgh Sports Memories / PA Sports History with David Finoli and Tom Rooney

Transcript

PA Sports History with David Finoli and Tom Rooney · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Tim Hannon.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Steve Wart.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: In this episode, we talked to the authors of a new book that covers a lot of ground when it comes to local sports history, and we have some really interesting discussions.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: David Fanoli has written almost 50 books on Pittsburgh Sports History, covering a ton of diverse topics.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: If you like this show, you will no doubt like David's books.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: Tom Rooney is also an author, in addition to being the former president of the Pittsburgh Penguins and the owner of the Rooney Sports and Entertainment Group.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: He's also a Rooney, he's the chief's nephew, and he has a lot of good nuggets in this episode about his career in Pittsburgh sports.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: The book that these two guys have collaborated on is about the history of sports in Pennsylvania, specifically fifty unique stories, and as we get into in the interview, there's a wealth of great Pittsburgh stories in here, but also some really interesting stories from places like Greensburg or Carlisle or Hershey or Latrobe.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: You can get the book in Pittsburgh area bookstores or online at Amazon or on David's website, 21-66books.com, which we will link in the show description.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: So we hope you enjoyed this conversation with David Finoli and Tom Rooney.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well thank you both for joining us.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um Like Steve and I, you you both obviously have a uh a passion for sports and specifically for telling stories about local sports history.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: David, where does that passion come from for you?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: I'll tell you what, I um I grew up in a very passionate sports family.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um my father and my uncle uh basically had me grow up uh watching uh successful baseball.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: I I wish I could uh give that gift to my children, but uh um you know they had me at the ballpark from the time I was six and seven, and and um it was something that always bound uh bound our family together.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: And uh um Pennsylvania Western Pennsylvania sports has has just been a passion of mine since then.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's awesome.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I wish I wish we could have successful baseball too.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh maybe maybe someday we'll all live long enough to see it.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe someday.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Tom, I I know you're you're obviously part of a famous sports family.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: I know you've devoted your career to sports and entertainment in general.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um did did did that love of sports for you come in at an early age, or was that something that was developed later?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh there was a confluence of my interest in history.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was a history major my first two years at Duquesne, uh, before I switched to journalism and be, you know, was at the sports area, the Duquesne Duke.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my my whole family are sort of history nuts, and I grew up in the lore of uh, you know, my dad was in a ticket office, my brother was a scout with the Steelers.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um I grew up with all the stories and uh some of which uh will have to go to the grave with me, I might say.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, it was kind of a confluence.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um love history, um, and you know, it just migrated over to to sports.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I was lucky enough to meet uh David several years ago, and this is actually our tenth collaboration together.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know I know you I know, you know, David, you've you've written now, I believe, dozens of books about Pittsburgh sports history, and and as Tom said, you guys have collaborated collaborated on a bunch of them.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what what what made you guys kind of want to expand the reach by doing a book on Pennsylvania sports history as opposed to something that was purely Pittsburgh based?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we um we had uh talked about with uh America 250 coming up certain ways that uh that we could uh we we could uh uh have a good good nice uh uh essay-based book on on history.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_04: We started in in western Pennsylvania and we had done a lot of the same stories um uh through our other collaborations, and Tom had uh had uh taken it to the next level and thought, what if we did one on Pennsylvania?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um and to me it it I I love doing new things.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: I love my favorite books are are the ones where I I go in with some stories I maybe don't have a good knowledge of that I can uh immerse myself in the research and and uh um come up with some good essays.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_04: And and I thought it was a fascinating uh idea.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: We uh pitched it to the history press and they uh uh they had agreed.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: And um this has been a format we have done in several of our books in the past where we not necess we don't necessarily tell a chronological uh uh history.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: We do it in like 50 50 or more essays.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um and we try to take them at different angles, uh uh, which hopefully explain them in a in a in a little more interesting way.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: I lived in Philadelphia, so uh I had natural access to people who were very close to Joe Fraser and uh who knew the history of the Philadelphia Warriors and the Flyers, and you know, so it was kind of easy for me.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think David, the original idea we had was like top 50 coaches, top 50 plays, and whatever.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think History Press said, you know, we're tired of lists.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: But um when David first approached me about this uh you know concept, I thought this is you know, this is out of the realm for me because David's done it, but I haven't done this sort of you know uh way of doing things.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: But he said, Tom, once you start writing them, it'll be easy.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, uh he assigned me 12 chapters, and after two, it was really free-flowing.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was just trying to, you know, track down, you know, people to talk about it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he didn't we didn't want to sort of regurgitate details.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to find, you know, nuances and untold stories about big stories that people might find fascinating.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's that's funny that you guys say that because I I feel like we have the same um sort of passion with this with this podcast.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think we really love the the you know, we we we tell a lot of stories about well-known Pittsburgh sports history topics, but I think some of our favorite episodes have been where we've explored stories that most fans don't know about.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so um it's it sounds like there's a lot of that in your book as well.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think one chapter that uh probably typifies that for me is um I did sports movies, of which there are plenty in Pennsylvania over the years.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: But uh Rocky Blair's a very close friend of mine, and we've talked a lot over the years about you know his movie, um, you know, Fighting Back, which is a made-for-tv movie.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's always the to Rocky's chagrin, you know, Rudy played one game, one one play, and there's a major motion picture about him.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Rocky's one of the great sports heroes of all time, and um, it came in a time when when the uh studios didn't think that sports movies were uh broad-based enough.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you had like uh Brian Song and Fighting Back, and those sports movies were all sort of made for TV movies at the time.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I had fun contrasting Rocky, you know, in Pittsburgh and Rocky Balboa in Philadelphia.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was uh that was a lot of fun.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I uh you know, we've actually talked about there can be a whole book about the sports movies made, you know, in Pennsylvania.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Both cities do a tremendous job with with getting films made there.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: That but that you know that could that could be a book on its own.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, one of one of my favorite uh chapters that Tom did, uh which another one we we've talked about doing uh doing a book on its own was uh teams that are no longer there.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh from the USFL, the the WTT, I mean just just so many teams that have uh uh come through this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: The Pittsburgh Maulers that Tom was a big part of uh of that.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um and just that was my first uh season ticket right out of college.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: And um just remembering those things was a lot of fun uh as I was going through Tom's chapter.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's uh you know, there's quite a few of them.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think I uh uh I did a Google search on uh defunct Pennsylvania sports teams, and uh there must have been a hundred.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them were minor league baseball teams, you know, that uh back at the time when Major League Baseball had, you know, D D level teams, you know what I mean?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: They would have had like 13 affiliations.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that was uh that was a lot of fun.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I hearken back to my own chapter that I wrote about the Mawers, which was called One and Dumb, you know, which was the whole idea of the Mawers.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I just made them a smaller part.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: But there were just so many other really you know good stories um, you know, uh about about those teams that have you know kind of come and gone.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um Tom, I just had a question.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: You were talking about the Rocky Blyer movie being a mix for TV movie.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, of course, you know, he had to be flattered that Robert Urick or your you know was playing him, which you know that's you know, that's an upgrade from rock there.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I wonder, I wonder, you know, if you had any thoughts on this, like being that that time that that movie was made what, late 70s, early 80s?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think 80, 81, yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we're still like I've noticed like a cultural shift.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just my father was a Vietnam veteran himself.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Back then, like that war was still so unpopular and that still infected the media that I wonder if at that time they weren't able to make a major moja picture that would portray a Vietnam veteran and that war in a positive light.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that maybe played into it, these movies just being a that at least that movie?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, Rocky played one play and he gets a whole movie because it's an inspirational tale.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I would think that Rocky's story is even more inspirational.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a guy like almost lost his dream while doing the right thing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I it I wonder if they almost like if they remade it now because of the way the culture has shifted again.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I I bet that would be a successful and any thoughts on that?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good point.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there were a lot of great uh Vietnam-era movies like Good Morning Vietnam and others that came out, you know, uh well after that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it took a settling in in period.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh Rocky uh kids about Robert York all the time.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Yeah, that's me with hair.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because uh uh but um I remember being up there, um Art Carney played my uncle Art, and he he hit the ball, he had the out of the ballpark.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he was he was uh just tremendous.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Fighting back was written um with Rocky and his agent, um, and they were trying to get control of the book again because there was an effort maybe eight or ten years ago, maybe to try to reboot that and make that a movie, but I don't think it's uh it's sort of gone anywhere.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, he um you know w it's amazing when you look back, uh uh you know, younger people don't understand uh or could never appreciate what it was like for us to live in the 70s to have four Super Bowl teams, two World Series teams, hits 1976 championship.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we did a whole book actually on the 1970s, but um it was almost um you know, there's a there's a saying that the there are too many Steelers in Canton, you know.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well there might have been too many stories on on the on on the Steelers, you know, for for people to want to accept, you know, one more.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: So so folks, again, the book is Pennsylvania Made, the History of Sports in Pennsylvania.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: We will have links in the show description on where you can find that, but you should be able to find that in local bookstores as well and online.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um you guys talked about how the book is broken into fifty unique stories.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh talk a little bit about that process of taking the entire state of Pennsylvania sports history and narrowing it down to 50 stories.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: How did you determine which ones to cover?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we um we're lucky enough to to have a uh I I like to call them my Knights of the Sports Roundtable, um, you know, historians, writers uh that we know.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um Tom had some uh uh some guys in in the Philadelphia area we we uh could go to.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: And the original idea when I started jotting down stories, I was well over 200 uh 200 stories.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um and what we did was we talked to some folks.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_04: It was a matter of you know, we wanted to cover eras, we wanted to cover um great teams like for instance LaSalle.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: It was a basketball power in the 1950s, as was our alma mater Duquesne.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: So we wanted to get certain angles on that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: Tom Golo was uh um was one of the greatest college basketball players ever to play, whose whose time is forgotten.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: So we we wanted to kind of get those angles, those stories uh of people that have long since forgotten the 1912 Carlisle Indian uh uh industrial school, which uh in 1912 was uh a national champion with Jim Thorpe on the team.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: Uh innovative football.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh football at the time was more I'll get my 12 uh big guys against your 12 big guys and we'll push each other around the field.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um Pop Warner in Carlisle figured out, well, maybe speed and running around, these big guys could uh could be the way football could be played in the future.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: And he was very prophetic with that, brought that uh philosophy to Pitt and won three national champions there, uh, championships there afterwards.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: So it was a matters we went through.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: We wanted to make sure we were hitting every corner of the state with impactful stories and stories of interest.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um you know, uh uh one of my favorites was in the in the 1930s.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_04: You you start a two and a half mile trek between Duquesne University and what is now Carnegie Mellon.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: And in the 1930s, you found three top ten football programs.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: You found uh uh team that won a national championship, five national championships under Jock Sutherland in that in that era.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um Duquesne in 1941 uh in retrospect were named the 1941 uh national championships by the Massy ratings.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um Carnegie Tech went to the 1938 Sugar Bowl, um, upset Newt Rockney a couple times.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: So things like that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, who I I could only imagine as a college football fan the joy of knowing I could go two and a half miles up Forbes Avenue and see the pinnacle of college football no matter where where I decided to watch.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um although most of it was played in Forbes Field and Pitt Stadium.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um but um that was that was the way we kind of broke out.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, we want to make sure we hit the Philadelphia A's.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um and certainly some of the best teams.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh oftentimes the 29 through 31 uh A's are talked about as the best franchise in uh our team in baseball history.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: So that's basically how we we tried to break it out.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: We also wanted to deal with moments, you know, moments that won't, you know, never be forgotten or maybe you know never uh you know matched again.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wilt's 100.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I went to Hershey, I went to that building that's still there.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I interviewed a guy named Bob Schaefer, 82 years old, who still works there.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: He was running the Zamboni, he had to come off the Zamboni to talk to me.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: He was uh 18 years old uh when that happened, and he was uh what was called a casual.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was working that event.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then Mario's Five Ways Gold, you know, um on New Year's Eve in 19 um 88, I think it was.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um The Amaka Reception, which I kind of wrote a first person thing.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually in the broadcast group that day.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh we took some of those moments, and if we couldn't find an interesting angle to it, um, I know I wouldn't, you know, I I didn't want to just rehash, you know, uh I wanted to find something.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Maz is Homer.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I interviewed um, in fact, I just kiddied him today because he texted me.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Bob Record was the bat boy, you know, in the in the you know, for for that team.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: When we went out to the um, you know, uh annual October 13th, where they, you know, they they do the radio play by play and hundreds of people hang out in that park in front of the wall.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I went out there thinking, wow, I hope there's somebody here, because Maz is like in Jersey retired, somebody here who was who is there.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I ran into Bob Record, who I knew, and I said, wait a minute, he was the bad boy.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I was able to interview him.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I think those moments are that people remember, but uh that those are my uh those are my most enjoyable chapters, sort of dissecting those those big moments, you know, from a different angle.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I love that idea of uh first of all, that that first person account of history, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's always Steve, you always say that about um how how important that is.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Steve's a big history buff.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you always talk about the the first person account being Key.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Very very amateur, too.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very amateur.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you uh you know, the Immaculate Reception's been written about a million times, and we were actually uh we helped put together the the um the Immaculate Reception monument with the Steelers, you know, that uh became actually almost a shrine when when Franco passed away.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I was uh I was still in college, I was still at Duquesne, and I would work uh the Steeler games in the broadcast booth.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there I was in the broadcast booth with Kurt Gowdy and Al D Ragatis, and I sort of uh you know covered that story from from their uh viewpoint, you know, not from you know uh the whole um you know aspect of the you know the play-by-play.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I I love doing that because so you were a witness to the infamous phone call that they always complain.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, um uh something I wrote in the book.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and you have to be old enough to remember this, but uh the Steelers, you know, went into the AFC, you know, with the Colts and the Um and the Browns.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my uncle was paid three million dollars to move the team to the AFC, you know, um, you know, when the merger happened.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um the AFC, the D Ragotas and Gaudi, because we worked a lot of games with them, they they didn't like the fact that the Baltimore and Pittsburgh became dominant teams.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, uh, you know, and and so they they I actually felt like they hated the Steelers.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know D Ragotters.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: That was just the vibe that I got, you know, that we were, you know, um that that that you know we we were uninvited guests into the ASC and we became, you know, so dominant, you know.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and Baltimore won in that in that period too.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um that that was a lot of fun writing from sort of inside the uh the broadcast.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: I tell everybody that they say, Did you see the amount of reception?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, you know, I saw Terry throw the ball, and the next thing I saw was Franco dancing into the end zone.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I missed, you know, um I missed the you know the deflection or, you know, uh sort of the dark corner of the end zone.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but anyway, I also tell the story and it has been told, but I love telling the story that my uncle Art didn't see the Amac Reception either.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: He was on an elevator downstairs on a way to the locker room to console the team.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So he missed the Immaculate Reception, which is the greatest play in um he got out of the elevator and people were cheering and he didn't know what happened, you know.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love writing it, you know, from that standpoint.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing about the Amac Reception that people uh might find interesting is that, you know, um it's only like 20 feet from second base of of uh of Three River Stadium, where uh, you know, Roberto Calmeni doffed his hat, you know, uh on his 3000th hit.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there's uh there's so much history, you know, down on that north shore.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Going all going all the way back to Exposition Park, which you know would which hosted uh the first World Series in 1903.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Northside Pittsburgh has tremendous, you know, sports history.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: It does.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's where uh just a a few blocks up from Accersure Stadium is where the first uh Pudge Heffelfinger, the the first paid professional football player, played.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: So the uh just the history over there was was incredible.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um I got uh somebody forward me a uh a picture of Exposition Park yesterday that I had never seen before that was completely flooded over um after the uh uh 1913 uh uh flood in Pittsburgh, which was the reason Barney Dreyfus ended up going to Oakland to to build Forbes Field was to get as far away from the river as possible.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um but uh uh when you walk through the north side at this or the the north shore at this point uh and just to think about the things that have happened there to think about even three river stadium we we had uh collaborated on a a book on three river stadium the history of it cookie cutter nothing spectacular pretty much a lousy uh venue to watch a baseball game but um to us venues are about the history that's made inside um and you think about the Steeler teams there you think about I mean Pitt beat uh Penn State for the first time in the Joe Paterno era in 1976 at Three River Stadium on their way to the national championship.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: Duquesne won the 1973 Club football championship um national championship at at Three River Stadium.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_04: The Pirates of course you know to me second team of of the decade in the 70s right behind the Reds um even though the A's won uh uh won three titles which is something I I uh I look at in in our Pennsylvania made book um but I mean just just the magnificence of what we were able to see the Hall of Famers the moments um when Bob Prince uh uh returned in 1984 um to announce a a game against the uh the Dodgers um uh only a month or two before he passed away um that was the first game I went to uh right after I got married with my wife and and we were sitting right uh right below the um uh the broadcast booth and I that's one of my cherished memories at that stadium but um you you could just go on and on about the things that that happened um over there.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah the official historian for the uh Josh Gibson Foundation of which I do a lot of work and we're a number 20 Josh Gibson cap today um he uh he lives in the um uh metro area down in uh DC Baltimore so um he was coming up one day because we're doing a symposium and he I I took them all around you know Pittsburgh to show him where uh the Grays played and where the Crawfords played and um you know he was just amazed that Pittsburgh has done such a great job with memorializing you know its its sites.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I hope the Civic Arena I hope there's an effort to do that I was uh I was a manager of the Civic Arena in the 80s and um you know that building um defied logic you know lasting 50 years and hosting you know uh the first ABA championship right um of course uh a couple of the I think maybe the first three Penguin Cups I think were there but uh yeah that that's uh that's that's a story uh that's some history that needs to be to be retold so yeah the Grays and the Crawfords you know um uh the chapter I I did on that was uh the 1931 Grays versus the 1935 Crawfords who was the better team and Josh Gibson played for both of them because he had switched and so the historian gave me some great great stories about uh about those teams and uh do you imagine if if the pirates were had been able to tap into all those great players that were already here in in Pittsburgh if they would have taken a leap you know I know they worked out some players you know early on but um you know nobody was was ready to take that Jackie Robinson leap.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's too bad because you know Josh Gibson my uncle art told me and he played against Josh Gibson in barnstorming games my uncle art was a really good baseball player he um he had offers to go pro he loved baseball he he would have owned the pirates and not the Stewart if he could have you know uh but the pirates weren't available but he said Josh Gibson was the greatest hitter he ever saw black white or otherwise well the the did the Crawford's 35 team did that have Satchel page or is that yes yep it did have that was the m that was the page the money the guy the uh was it Greenley paid all the money actually satchel wasn't on the 35 team he had he had a disagreement with Gus Greenley uh in 1934 and uh had he was a very wealthy businessman and he paid yeah yeah and and they uh the story goes it was at the at a wedding in the offseason he and satchel had a disagreement and satchel uh decided to barnstorm in in 35 but he was there in 34 which was a pretty damn good team too and he he still became the he still played in the major league for Cleveland in what 40 43 he played 14 years later oldest is he still the oldest rookie in the in major league baseball i i I believe so yeah yeah yeah yeah I that's hard to believe he pitched that long i oh and he was effective that was cleveland's last uh world championship team and he he was real damn good in 48 well they always said they said he used the pitch i i read a quote he used the pitch that wasn't illegal but wasn't quite legal he had some sort of like like stop he would like stop halfway through kind of like a Louis Tian kind of thing yeah which I love satchel page because I just his quotes are unbelievable.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and when was he born?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Does any David the UCB baseball guy I does anybody know when he was really born like they he I I I'm sure we could go and get a ballpark figure.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they said I if I'm not mistaken there's two different dates I've seen like just wandering the internet and I I don't know.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah he he never told anybody and and he was um I want to say 42 when he was a rookie um at least that's what was listed it could have been older.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_04: But um man yeah I mean to see him in his prime would have been something just spectacular.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: One of the sad things uh you know with uh our Josh Gibson work is that there is not one one second of live uh action of Josh hidden there's some there's some video of him sort of smiling look like he's you know before game like swinging a couple bats but you know um there's not one one iota of footage of him uh of him playing that's it's kind of a sad thing you know um we uh at the foundation and I think I can say that because I'm a volunteer with the Josh Gibson Foundation you know we were overwhelmed uh by uh the acceptance of of all the Negro league stats and having Josh pop up as a you know stat leader in six categories amazing you know um we weren't sure what they were gonna include and what they weren't gonna include they only included stats of Negro league games uh games within their own league which was 60 or 70 games a year they played 250 games a year because they went down to the islands and played in the in the winter but um we were uh you know when you look at the MOB stat line you see Josh Gibson and others you know that uh you know uh that were uh that were great players at that time you know cool Papa Bell and others it's it's been it's been really gratifying but again it calls back to the moment of you know we had so much you know talent here and we really really missed it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um we also tried to do as much as we could on individual sports you know um Pittsburgh uh had a uh an NBA team a very first NBA team in uh after the war in 1946 and 47 the league the the league says that that is their first year I think it was called the Basketball Conference of America or something Association of America the BA yeah we had we had a team for one year I think David were they called the Ironman I think they were called they were the Ironman and um my old boss is his uncle played on that team and and he would tell me just stories nobody showed up right at those games but yeah yeah we were in the first uh technical NBA season then we had of course you know um the uh the 1967 68 Aviate champions you know the uh the the Pipers with uh Connie Hawkins which is a great story but my favorite Pittsburgh sports team and I wrote about it a little bit is the Pittsburgh Pisces uh in the fish that's Dr.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: J, come on man Yeah I know yeah yeah so uh and Meadowlark Meadowark Levin I think was yeah so I wrote about that a little bit you know that was uh that was a riot with when when that movie was made here and uh you know that's it you know every once in a while uh it'll pop up on NBA you know TV right you'll you'll see it and it's so bad it's good right uh you know it really it really is good and then of course you know Slapshot which of course we had to mention which is um you know uh which is Burton and you know we've got uh Dave Hansen who runs Robert Morris's hockey facilities out there he was one of the Henson brothers so he's still around so we got some great stories about Paul Newman and and you know that whole crew I also had a chance to uh we've we've gotten to know Tim McConnell over the years you know the McConnell family is really they're they're to basketball what the Rooney family is to football you know the first first family of basketball in Pittsburgh for sure my god the genealogy I I uh I went out and interviewed um Kathy uh Miller McConnell who is Tim's uh Tim's sister and TJ's aunt and she's the head coach at CMU and uh I had to go through it was so confusing.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know in the Irish tradition you name your first son uh after your dad so that's why with the stewards you get like art dan art dan art dan art you know and and so with the with McConnell's it's kind of the same thing it was really I was like banging my head against the wall trying to figure out all these different uh people but I th I think I finally got it right you did a great job with it yeah that was that was that was a that was a fun chapter and uh you know just the history of that family and birthday so yeah speaking of basketball um we were talking about the ABA and Connie Hawkins and after it's the weirdest championship ever after they win the championship the team moves to Minnesota now either you can answer this do you think if the team stays because like I kind of feel there was this window of opportunity for a third major sports team and I don't know if Pittsburgh could sport four like Philadelphia or LA or New York like the bigger cities but I think obviously Pittsburgh can support three and the Penguins were so fledgling for so many years if they don't move and they keep Connie Hawkins in that league are they one of the teams that get absorbed in the NBA do you guys have I think I would think so I mean the the momentum I mean toward the end of the I mean the Steelers stunk the the Penguins were about to stink um and um the Pirates were going through a little bit of of a bumpy road um in 67 and 68 after they got Jim Bunning and and Mari Wills that they were kind of stuck in neutral.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: But um the as the season went on I mean at that last game in in game seven of the 68 championship they drew almost 12,000 fans to the Civic Arena which I think it only held 13,000 at the time before the upper decks were built.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: And um the momentum was was going well and the city was starving for a winner at that point.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah I I think there are two things with basketball that would have done in the Penguins eventually had the Pipers been sucked into the NBA and been successful.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_04: Because you remember the Penguins in the mid-70s were in bankruptcy and and not doing well financially and that was their thing until um Debartolo took over even then a couple times it was done.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure they survived the 74-75 season if the Pipers are successful.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_04: That and the fact in 1960 the owner of of the Hornets John Harris was given an NBA franchise um which we write about in in um in one of our books uh about when all uh all the facilities in in Pittsburgh were in Oakland um and they he decided to turn down the franchise after he wasn't able to get his head coach from from the Lakers and the guy who was given the franchise after that decided oh well there's an ABL coming up the American Basketball league we'll get a franchise there and we can win quicker and that ended up being the Wrens which were out of business after one season which is probably one of the most um poorest decisions in in Pittsburgh history to turn down an NBA franchise.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: But had you had both those opportunities in the NBA I truly believe the Penguins would not be in existence today and um either the Pipers or that NBA team because I'm not sure the Pipers would have been in existence had we had an NBA team would have uh taken over um if they were successful.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah that's a great question.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's sort of what we do.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was in St.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Louis last week um helping them trying to figure out what to do with the dome.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's still got the St.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Louis Rams colors all over it you know and um you know they were thinking that you know maybe with expansion that they might get an NFL team again.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: They'll never get an NFL team again.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the way you look at uh markets the way we do we do anyway comparable size comparable size markets tend to have one or the other major indoor sports.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Buffalo has hockey Pittsburgh has hockey Cleveland has you know basketball Indy has basketball Columbus has hockey you know St.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Louis has hockey you know um you don't have um small smaller markets you know that have you know both those franchises unless they're owned by the same ownership where you know there's some efficiencies in um but the penguins you know they've right um you know they uh you know they almost founded from the beginning they were very undercapitalized they made a huge mistake when they tried to launch a a soccer team the Phantoms you know at at the same time and um it just drained them they they thought you know I mean they just didn't they just didn't have the money.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Phantoms was one of the articles it was one of the chap uh one of the teams I wrote about about um you know the the teams that went away um you know they were uh they would be in MLS right now I mean that was that you know that was that progression uh but I think I wrote in there that I went to one Phantoms game and it was a zero zero tie with Toronto so I still haven't seen a goal but um yeah I think they they could have um you know but the other thing that that I always mention when people bring that up is Duquesne had a great basketball program at that time.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Duquesne and Pitt were our basketball you know what I mean Duquesne was an NCA team in in uh you know the 70s and and they would you know they'd largely outdraw anything you know that the the Pipers or the Condors uh would would do the decision to um move the the Pipers to Minneapolis happened before the championship game that was already a done deal the owner was it Gabe Rubin I think David Yeah yeah George Miken was looking for um because his Minnesota Muskies moved out of uh were moving out of Minnesota and and he wanted to keep the ABA offices in Minnesota they went bankrupt and then he took his team the and they went bankrupt.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah exactly exactly you know the uh the uh the other uh Dave I I wanted to mention you know you mentioned when Duquesne and Carnegie Mellon were um were powerhouses I I had the uh privilege of writing a chapter about the WJ team that was in that that is as a national yeah uh championship um plane and they had the first black uh quarterback uh in the in the Rose Bowl and what that was all about that was one of my chapters that was a great chapter you say WJ was a like a top tier college football yeah in in that era right David they were uh oh wow in the teens and 1920s actually okay all right in um in in retrospect that team Tom wrote about uh won the 1921 national championship that they didn't claim they they were uh in those years there the you you know there were four or five different parties that were naming championships right David I mean yeah but what was that weird point system was it the Gardner points you remember that like the was it the Gardner I remember the Whippy used to use that it was like points I I remember my son played youth football and they used it and I said this is this is the most insane way it was insane.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah it's like points against points for who you played for who you didn't play it was like oh my goodness yeah yeah that that 1921 WAJ team had to take like a three-day train ride you know there were no planes then out to California and they played the University of California to a zero zero tie and they had scored a touchdown and it got called back so there's you know was the felt there was some Homerism going on but they uh they were able to be uh designated that so that was uh that was that was a great story so it's been a lot of fun with a lot of different angles um my Joe Fraser story is a little bittersweet um because of how things ended up with him David I sent you a picture of you know his rundown gym where he lived in the last days of his life oh great that's that might even be on the cover I love that picture yeah it was sad uh but the story there was it was a Philadelphia policeman who um who borrowed money from um his uh his union and uh bought two shares in a company called Cloverlay which became the business management company for Joe Frazier and that begat a company that is the largest um uh company that does uh closed circuit broadcasts um around the country they do 2500 events a year so um that was just a different angle to it Mark Cram wrote a great biography on on Joe Fraser but I I didn't want to you know go back and just like tell the Joe Frazier story and throw in Manila all that other stuff.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: We we had hoped that people would look at the nuances that we're we're doing everything has a a different angle I was uh I wrote a story on the 74 Steelers draft through my brother's eyes who I lost my brother uh earlier this year he was the scout uh for the Steelers on that team so he he had some uh stories that he was able to give me about about uh about that team um I'll tell you a quick one uh uh was Lambert part of that team or not uh David he was he was part of that draft yeah absolutely second round pick so my brother was sent to uh was sent to uh Kent State to to look at a different player and um and while he was there it it had rained and they wouldn't let the players on the field because the field was muddy because they practiced on the same field they played so they said no you're gonna have to practice in the parking lot.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a skinny white guy Jack Lambert who was picking stones out of his legs you know because he was he was going full bore in the parking lot and he was just just absolutely fearless.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So my um my brother came back and he said yeah this other guy's pretty good to my his boss was Art Rooney Jr.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: who is um you know who's up again for the Hall of Fame designation he said I think Art you need to go look at this guy Jack Lambert so uh that was uh that was kind of a a neat inside story about uh about that particular draft yeah I I love the I love the again the different angles and kind of the forgotten stories and the the what ifs that those kinds of things um you guys you guys talked about when we were talking about basketball you talked about duques uh you know having a a a really rich history that I think doesn't get talked about uh enough and and one of my my favorite forgotten stories we've delved into on this show was um when the University of Tennessee came and and refused to play because Duquesne had uh a black player Chuck Cooper and Duquesne basically stood up to them and said you know no he's gonna play uh you guys devote an entire chapter in this book to Duquesne's place in integrating college basketball can you talk a little bit about that?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely that that was one of the great we we've uh dealt with that so many times um I did a Chuck history biography with his son uh um Chuck III and um you know that was a big part of that December 23rd I believe 1946 um where um that was in McKee sport wasn't it they were playing in McKee sport that was at McKee sport yeah after the war they um they sold that where Duquesne played on campus at the time ended up selling their their seats in the war effort so they they kind of went around the city and then they played at the Duquesne Gardens but that day they were playing in McKee Sport and uh um they were playing Tennessee Tennessee would make agreements when they come up north with the coaches you know we don't want to uh have our players play against black players so you have to promise to sit them and not play them.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: And his name was John Morrow, the coach and he um thought he had an agreement with um Chick Davies Chick uh basically told him uh first he'd say, well, we won't play him unless we we need them, and that wasn't good enough for John Morrow.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then Judge Samuel Weiss, who was the head of the Duquesne um uh athletic ad administration, which ran the sports at the time, basically said, no, you know, we if you will not uh play against Chuck Cooper, then we're gonna send you home without any money and we're gonna forfeit this.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_04: And he he told the fans to go home and he had enough.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it was it was a great moment um not only in our history, but I mean showing how how Duquesne had had um been supportive uh of integration at a time when it was not common to be supported.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: We had um we had some of the great compose um the great owner of the um um homestead grace who was the only man to be um um to be uh in the both basketball and baseball hall of fame he was a great innovator uh and he developed the the jump shot basically in in the early 19 teens as he brought the five colored championships to uh the Pittsburgh area um but he played for Duquesne he was our leading scorer for a couple years um Chuck Cooper um certainly the first African American Tom has done a a huge amount of work with their foundation um Chuck Cooper who was a great hero of of mine um was the first African American to be um drafted into the NBA he was also the first Boston Celtic to hold out because he wanted it wasn't enough for him to be there he put his career on the line because he wanted to be paid the same as as the white players on the team and he won.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_04: He was also the first African American to step on court in an NBA game while it's not considered official because it was a preseason game he still was there and he was there while people were um certainly showing their prejudice in the stands against him.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: It was a very pressurized situation for him.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_04: We had Jim Tucker who in NBA lore was uh one of the first uh two NBA players to win an NBA championship but he had the quickest um triple-double in NBA history until Jokic uh broke it a couple years ago um we had Dick Ricketts and Cy Green Cy Green the the uh two-time consensus all American Dick Rickett the player of the year in 1955 when we won our national championship still the leading scorer and rebounder in school history um ricketts and green were the first and the only NBA first overall picks um to be drafted uh can in consecutive years uh by one school um and that's something that the school still holds as as a uh um uh as a proud moment but these things were all part of our history we became like the Dodgers became a dominant team in the National League because they were willing to sign the best players regardless of color.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_04: Duquesne became the Alabama of of college basketball in the 1940s and 50s because they didn't care who they were signing.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_04: They they were uh aggressive in signing African uh American players uh Fletcher uh Fletcher Johnson who became uh one of the great surgeons I ironically in in our country's history um was uh a preeminent six man for the team during their their run in the early 50s so um we certainly honor those players um uh in that chapter and as alumni and I I know Tom can especially speak to uh what Chuck Cooper has meant to our university it's just a a pride point and it was uh an honor to to have it included in the book.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's the 75th anniversary of um what they're calling the pioneer it's the the year that the NBA was integrated and it's also the centennial year uh of Chuck's birth so we've got a uh a big gala that we're planning on April 15th uh you know for that but as I mentioned I think you know uh the Steel Bowl was probably and and also the Ron Ball Classic were kind of the preeminent basketball events you know in the Pittsburgh area at a time that the Condors and the Pipers were trying to chisel their way into the you know into the landscape.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's one of the things that kind of um hurt you know the chances of having a team because we I mean Duquesne would draw six or seven or ten or Sunday afternoons Duquesne played Villanova I mean there'd be 10,000 people at the arena.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: Those were great great matchups yeah I I uh I'm a Duquesne alum as well and and so definitely appreciate you guys you know giving just due to the the history there because there's I feel so left out not being a Duquesne he was a pit guy we'll we'll we'll let that slide had some great pro they had some great basketball teams too that you know it was it was uh the the you guys you know we tried to actually resurrect the skill bowl several years ago with uh when we were doing work with Duquesne but um you know there's there there there just wasn't you know the interest it's really hard to recruit the other two teams.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know they play the city game for a while but you know getting the other two teams to to convince it's very difficult.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the uh one of the the really kind of unique and and great events in sports is played in Pennsylvania that people don't always talk about and that is the the Little League World Series.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and I think you guys covered that and I and I believe the the specific event you cover is when Monet Davis who I believe is also from Pennsylvania played in that um what did you guys find compelling about that story?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well it it was a special thing she was from Philadelphia which which you know made it even more special Pennsylvania doesn't always get a lot of participants in in in that um but just how she not only I mean it's one thing for a girl to participate another thing for them to completely dominate a series um and just that moment that she she had her shut out in in in World Series play in the the play up to um to getting to Williamsport.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: Recently she was drafted as a 10th overall pick in the upcoming women's uh um professional baseball league that's going to start next year.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that that kind of made uh um you know is bringing the story to light a little bit uh uh on a national level if she did that but uh just it in the great history of that event which I mean has become a uh just a bear for ESPN now um who would have thought 10 years ago 15 years ago that uh millions of people would be tuning in to uh to watch uh Little League World Series in fact I think five million people tuned in if I'm not mistaken to the broadcast when she pitched there um which is still the record but they're showing they're showing regional games now like like like that that's wild like yeah like like you you watch you you'll be seeing California and Oregon like two little league teams from you know oh my goodness a little league game on oh yeah TV national TV that that's unbelievable blows my mind yeah yeah I lived in Texas uh and very close to a town called Spring and Spring was uh a champion I think in the late nineties of that and you know the whole all of Houston was totally that's where I lived in the Houston area was totally captivated by the Little League World Series because of you know of the of the local team you know it's it's it was it was you know we we see it in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia and you know we kind of understand because it's you know maybe only a couple hours away but it was fun to to watch it from Texas and and uh and see people so captivated by it.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: Lloyd McClendon who played for and then managed the Pirates uh also has a a pretty rich history I believe with the Little League World Series.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: He was a big Little League World Series hero when he was played in it as a kid and and through the magic of YouTube uh I we even found a um a clip of him as a kid talking to Mickey Mantle.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: Mickey Mantle was there uh and and they have a footage of that so I that's yeah it's it's got an amazing history that that event absolutely um you you guys talked earlier about the the Philadelphia Athletics 1929 to 31 that that great team that they have and and I'm not sure if you guys cover this or not in the book but but my understanding is that team was largely responsible for pushing the state legislature to abolish the blue laws that they had that prevented Sunday sporting events.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really the impetus I believe for the founding of both the Steelers and the Eagles is that right it was yeah yeah it well it was um uh they were part of it I mean obviously um tom's uh tom's uncle art was a huge huge part of it um in fact until uh that first season in 33 for the Steelers until the law was officially passed they would play games during the week the first part of that uh yeah the first part of that that season but um yeah I mean Connie Mack was I mean he was uh uh started actually managing the Pirates in the 19th century but he was he was uh just a legendary figure in in Pennsylvania history and that was one of his contributions was was starting to push for that wore a suit and tie in the dugout exactly and I'm sure it helped to have you know the this wildly popular successful team being the being the ones pushing for it right I'm I'm sure that that if you're a politician you know I'm sure that that that that the that the people are going to want to um do what the team wants at that point.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: It it it just opened up a lot of possibilities.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah well you you mentioned the Stewart having to play on Wednesday nights um you couldn't play on on Sundays but you also didn't want to go against high school football or college football.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it was you know uh those early years when the when the Stewart were actually called the pirates for the first five years.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know it was almost like semi pro.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know the players had other jobs you know there's no way that you could subsist on you know uh on a pro football uh career it was it was really looked down upon by um a lot of uh the sports writers at the time because college football was just you know such you know such the case so yeah yeah your your uncle what what was it the the pre-steeler team uh that played on the north side uh oh the Hope Harveys yes well there were two the Hope Harveys and the Rooney Reds yeah yeah the GT Rooneys yeah there's a uh you know we just did a private event for a client um a couple weeks ago at the Hall of Honor and if you guys have not been there it's phenomenal and I had Kevin Colbert with me and we did our own curated tour for about 40 people for this healthcare company and it was amazing.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we went over to the bus and um we said okay ask a question about a player.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you know the 40 bus are up there and somebody would say Troy Palomalu and then you know Kevin would go through you know everything that happened with with how they drafted him what I thought of him and then I sort of was the guy from the older players because I knew the stories growing up about Ernie Stotner and you know people like that.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um but it's an amazing experience over there if you guys haven't been over there.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: So very cool.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: You have you have the 50 stories in the book or were there any stories that you wanted to tell but but didn't make the final cut there there are so many.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_04: I mean the hope is in in the next few years that that the book does well enough.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: We can do a second and third edition.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um I mean as a as a boxing fan from the 70s I wanted to tell about Larry Holmes.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_04: It just was one of the last ones I I knocked out.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_04: There are so many things with football in the 19th century here with Latrobe uh actually having the uh the bid to build the Hall of Fame there um and how that fell apart the Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been in Latrobe and how that fell apart.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_04: And what we ended up deciding on was something that's as a Greensburg uh um that's my hometown.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a story uh at the beginning on the 1897 Greensburg Latrobe uh matchup which to me judging from everything people have found although can never really um being that the contracts are never going to be brought up to prove that every player on that field was was paid but basically from a lot of research that people have done to me that is the first professional game where everybody was was paid um in in football history and and so I I wanted to tell that I thought that was probably something we hadn't touched on in our last books and and that was it but those things Ed Abitaccio uh who was a pirate in during their first decade was also one of the great football players of that era you know that was a last minute cut um you know the great first two-way uh uh football baseball player um there was a uh chapter I wanted to do on the pirates uh hockey team um on the Yellowjacket hockey team which was yeah like I can never boy I I I try I remember I was doing like teams that aren't here like kind of like you were doing yeah I could not find much of anything about like those teams that they played in the Duquesne Gardens didn't they?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah I beyond that I couldn't tell you much about them like well they they were the first team that actually used lines and and wow that that came up in in one of the books we were researching um a colleague of ours Robert Healy was going through something said hey did you know that they actually were the first team to use lines and I I hadn't at the time and I I thought that was back then I guess hockey players played 60 minutes.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wow and sounds exhausting exactly exactly David you mentioned the boxing the lore in boxing you know um a friend of ours um uh did write a book on on Pittsburgh boxing history but there's so many great nuances i you talk about Larry Holmes I had a chance to uh to work with Don King on the uh in imminent danger the fight at the Civic Arena in in 1981 and that was one I could have had a field day with David just writing from the background hang hanging around with uh Don King so uh that's one I regret not doing yeah I can imagine that could be a whole book in and of itself is just I I mean now maybe I'll get you in trouble here Tom but you kind of have firsthand knowledge of Don King do you in your opinion do you think Don King is the reason like boxing's in the shape like that you have the UFC is basically taking over what boxing was do you think he's he he played a hand in that yeah maybe you know um I I got to know Aram and King you know um and I I I think there's some um sociological issues with you know with with the with the boxing too that you know the demographics have have sort of changed uh but um you know it was a it was a wonderful area I think at one time David didn't we have like six of the 18 champions at one time or something crazy in in the 30s and 40s yeah absolutely and and we had Charles Charlie Burley who um uh was considered one of the great uh middleweights of all time who because of his color never had a chance to um yeah to fight for the title yep yeah going back to hockey one one of the other stories you guys write about in this book is when the Flyers had the the the the kind of the all-out war with the Soviet Red Army team which which of course was partially taken over late much a couple decades later by the penguins yeah uh that that got pretty ugly didn't it oh i it was very ugly I mean at the time the Cold War was was really in its height and it was on the Cold War had come to the ice the one interesting thing I had found about it was a very brutal game in fact the the Red Army walked off the ice at one point after a couple flyer cheap shots I mean the Broad Street bullies were at their at their core at that point and um uh basically they were told they weren't getting paid and that's why they came back on the ice um but um it was a savage game the flyers dominated it was a time where the Soviets were dominating just about every NHL team they played in including the penguins um in this exhibition series and um the thing I found most interesting when I was looking back was the newspapers in Philadelphia were treating it as a normal newspaper would treat a Super Bowl win.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean it was almost the entire content of the paper that day um what was this from the front page through the sports um you would you would be it would be very difficult to find another story that that happened that day it was that big in Philadelphia.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now now I just just for timing now I know Karlimov I've seen interviews he said he didn't want to come back for the third period of that game but he but he did was that before because was bobby clark was on that Flyers team right oh yeah so was this before or after the summit series because you it was after 72 was the summit series so this is after well no why is he playing Bobby Clark again that guy broke his ankle in 72 well then it was um it was a Canadian um uh versus uh uh Russia series in 72 that was the first time they had ever but that's that's a big reason the Canadians won is because Bobby Clark slashed Karlimov and broke his ankle yeah because they they were down those last couple games and they they were going back it was it was like a weird nine game something or nine games yeah yeah I I actually had just ordered it um because I I'd only seen bits and pieces of the game so I I found on Amazon oh wow uh the the whole every single game well no wonder Karlamov didn't want to come back he didn't want to get his ankle broken again it was it was just I mean reading about this this game I mean they were just mauled i in the first period by the Flyers in this uh I believe it was 76 and I I don't blame them for not wanting to come on the ice i i I mean it was this of the ref the refs that turned their head the the whole first period you know what really hurt those Russian teams too was the the the size of the ice I mean there was nowhere to hide you know because they were just national ice that's a different game if you've watched it you know I've been able to see a couple games live that way I mean it's a it's a it's a it's a different game but when you're in the cauldron of uh you know uh you know just 200 feet what the difference is the width you know there was just no place to hide for those yeah and correct me if I'm wrong to Tom the uh the Boston Gardens and the spectrum were two of the smaller rings oh yeah Boston Gardens was yeah absolutely yeah between the blue lines I remember that there was I I don't know how why that was but yeah the gardens I remember that more than the spectrum yeah yeah so is there is there anything in the book any little tidbits you guys came across as you were doing the research that you were like oh wow I I never knew that before I have one you know uh I was in the stands I worked for the Penguins um and one of the times was when Mario scored those five goals on New Year's Eve and um I was in the stands and um I knew what was what was going on because I was teen you know uh I remember leaving the arena we had dinner reservations was a three o'clock game with dinner reservations across the street at at uh I forget the name of the restaurant it was called Hugo's or something across the street but I was like shaking but uh what I found out when I talked to Paul Stagerwall because I interviewed him because he called that game was that the broadcasters didn't didn't know um Tom McMillan's story the next day didn't even mention the five ways goals and um one of the uh interesting things because when I was at the game and I saw the fifth goal go in the actual uh light the green light went on marking the end of the game before um before
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was called a goal.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, uh, no one's ever talked to the referee about whether he also knew and he wanted that hit you know a moment to to happen.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what happened was maybe there was a a split-second difference between the puck going in the goal and the guy trying to flash the light.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I was surprised that uh that hardly anybody knew, you know, the media or the broadcast team that that what had just happened.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the that someone had scored five goals, the only way you could do it, you know, um in in regulation.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was a little surprise for me.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_03: I I guess that makes sense because it had never happened before, so it wasn't like there was a bar.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was it was an eight to sixth game, too.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean it was like there's so much going on, you know.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I thought it was ironic that that game was the devils.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, um the guy who was the very second pick in that draft, Kirk Muller, he scored a goal in that game.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we came very, very close to Marion Lemieux being a New Jersey devil, you know.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, had uh our friend Eddie Johnson not tanked, you know, at the end of the season to get that uh to get that pick.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of in I think I read about that too, there's a lot of sort of inside intrigue into that into that game.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_03: Although, although I believe Eddie Johnson's still on record is never admitting to tanking.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is that he's a he's a close friend of mine.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's come around.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: His his uh his pay his his pat answer now is hey uh Eddie, did you did you tank the you know the season to get Mario?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: And his answer is what would you do?
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: Good answer.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Good answer.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: What would you do?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_03: Good deflection.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: I I I I know that um, yeah, I know pretty much everybody else, coach and and everybody else has admitted, yeah, we we lost on purpose, but E gay has always been kind of well there's a guy named the so so Roberto Romano, we used to do the uh handle our Baltimore teams and our wheeling teams uh you know from the standpoint of marketing and things like that.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually went to um quite a few skipjacks games.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Rob Roberto Romano was a promising goalie, and uh we sent him down because he was playing too well, and uh EJ traded for uh a guy named Vincent Trombley, who might have been, you know, might have stopped Pittsburgh Spirit Soccer Balls, but he wasn't stopping hockey pucks, you know.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was that was that was the move.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_04: Well, i in the 1990s, uh the pirates had uh had played the Blue Jays in an exhibition game at the Sky Dome, and we were going up to it, and and we were stopping in Niagara Falls overnight, and we went in this bar and I had my penguins hat on, and this bouncer comes up and says, Could you come with me to the office?
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I didn't know what uh what the heck he was doing, so I I bring in the office, they sit our friends and my wife at a at a table, and I go in this office, and this guy's sitting there, and he puts his hand out, he goes, My name's Roberto Romano.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_04: He was the owner of the car.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_04: And he saw I was walking in with a penguin hat.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_04: I guess they had their cameras on.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_04: And he started, I spent a half hour, and then my wife and friends were scared to death, wondering why the hell I hadn't come back to the table.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_04: And we had this nice conversation with a half hour, and he was laughing at at that particular thing of when he was sent down uh for that.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, he knew damn well why he was sent down, and um he got the biggest kick out of it.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and Vincent Tromblay, I I believe Bob Erie or someone said he was he was a milkman.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_03: He was delivering milk before that, or something to that effect.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and only played in like four or five games, but was so terrible that that's all they really needed was to just get it get a leg up on the devils.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_03: We we did an episode about that season, and it's amazing when you dig into the details of it because uh the the the that devils team was something like the 13th or 14th worst team in NHL history.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so the penguins literally had to be, you know, in the top 12 to surpass them.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_03: And if you look at the trajectory of that season, all the way up until January, uh, you know, if you if you read like the the Post Gazette or Press, it's it's like, well, the Penguins might still be in playoff position if they can win these next two games at home.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't terrible, and then it wasn't until about January or so that they really started going in the tank.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_03: So they really had to work hard to to get Mario, and thank goodness they did.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I heard about Mario.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I heard about Mario the year before uh you know he was playing his last year in juniors because EJ had said to me, There's a guy, you know, now who uh is gonna be, you know, uh you know better than than anybody.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So he he had it in his back of his mind.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now had they had a season where you know maybe by January he realized you know they weren't gonna be uh be any good.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But um I remember uh Mr.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: DeBartlow who you know didn't go to many hockey games, he actually blew his jet up to watch him play up in up in Canada.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we you know, another kind of unsold story, the Pittsburgh Spirit were uh drawing the penguins at one time, you know, um and we we operated them too.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I was in a meeting in Youngstown where they you know uh where they were talking about whether to keep the spirit or keep the penguins.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um you know, uh the spirit their problem was they had a great regular season, but they kept getting knocked out like in the first round of the playoffs.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um that sort of you can imagine what would happen, you know, if we would uh if we had not had uh the penguins.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: We almost lost the penguins a number of times.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean they've you know they've been resurrected uh you know many, many times.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: The spirit, David, you talked about the Maulers being your first season ticket.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that was me for the spirit.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_03: I I Oh and and and those those games, um, I I still have really fond memories of that.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I I I remember you talked about the playoffs.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_03: I remember the year that they lost to Cleveland uh in the first round.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_03: There was like an overtime game.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_03: It was just it was a tough loss because they had a really good team that year.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's another interesting, you know, what could have been.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh you guys talked about defunct teams.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many great uh defunct teams that I think people have a lot of fond memories of and and will be happy to read about in in this book for sure.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: That could be another book, David.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think you and I have talked about that.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have several times.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you know, uh every little like Washington PA, I lived on that area for a while.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they had a St.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Louis Cardinals D team, you know.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, what the teams would have like 13 affiliates, you know.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, that there was a Pennsylvania league, um which Washington was part of.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_04: Butler, um my hometown of Greensburg had a uh team with uh the Cardinals.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_04: My dad used to go to the stadium to watch the gas house gang in the 30s um there.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that that was a very um very interesting.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_04: Jeanette had a team.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the spirit, you know, the uh there still is a major indoor soccer league.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually on a board with a guy in Los Angeles who owns a team in the uh Los Angeles area in Ontario, California.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the commissioner of the league, if you're a spirit fan, you'll be interested to know that the commissioner of the league is a fellow named Keith Tozer.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: He was one of our spirit players.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh I actually talked to him about six months ago.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So um they're trying to bring that back.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the uh the economics of owning a sports team, we used to always say that uh, you know, uh a penguin hockey game or a Bruno Samartino wrestling game game, you know, event, you know, 15,000 people, beer, hot dogs, nachos, whatever it would be, you know, we operated the concession, so we made a lot of money, right?
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well the spirit was one coke and two straws.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because it was all kids.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it did it we we didn't drive the the revenue that you know um that that that that we would want.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was you know, Mr.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: DeBarla was a funny sort of a guy, you know, with uh Molwersh.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: We all said, Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, and he did it.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, By the way, I'm doing it, and you're doing it.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, uh that was that was a year from hell.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I was in purgatory that my Uncle Art, the only time I ever heard him mad in person, he said, Tommy, he said, I got me I got the Barlow into the league and he stabbed me in the back.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, the DeBarlows had been um kept out of Major League Baseball by Bowie Kuhn because they were trying to buy the White Sox.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: But because of the alleged, you know, mob ties, it wasn't.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my uncle had a lot of business with the DeBarlos because they owned racetracks.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, my uncle sold uh racetracks.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_01: They they did a lot of business together, so he really stood up for them.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: But he was he was really, really mad about the the Mawers.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, wow.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh when you say he got the DeBartlos into the league, what what do you mean by that?
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well he he stood up for them.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, when they when the bought San Francisco?
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: How long have they owned San Francisco?
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, when they bought the when they bought the 49ers.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I which they still kind of owned this.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh yeah, so he got in trouble when they, you know, he tried to uh he put four hundred thousand dollars in a paper bag and gave it to the governor of Louisiana for uh for a a dog uh license there.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um I didn't I've never heard that before.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, no, no.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean that's that's you can go, you know, that's he he turned he he became a state witness against the governor and he got immunity.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, so so that got him kicked uh well that got him kicked out of running the 49ers.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So his So that's why he had to give it to his sister.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Marie Denise DeBarlow.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And her son was Jed, who runs the team.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Jed coming in like, you know, in a station wagon the hockey games, a little kid running around.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, that's uh that's how uh that's how they got.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And Mr.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: DeBarl, we used to have to go Youngstown for meetings all the time, and Mr.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: DeBarlow used to get lunch, but um somebody asked him one day about the mob in Youngstown.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: He said, if you live in Youngstown, it's impossible not to know someone from the mob, you know.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh anyway.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So so we'll wrap this up with one last question.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh now that this book's done, what are you guys working on next?
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um we'll uh we'll come up with something.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, um uh I have something with um um Rob Ink Ingakowski uh coming up on uh unique baseball stories um that'll be out for opening day.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um angles like you know, we talked to the guy who was the third baseman the day Kyle Ripkin broke the all-time record, things like that.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh next year I have a book coming out on the 1955 Pitt Panthers, uh the Sugar Bowl team with Bobby Greer, uh, where they they uh uh broke segregation in the South with uh Greer playing in the Sugar Bowl.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I can I can tell you that uh I've been titling David's stuff.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_01: David Silver, Harry Tottenham Coaching Central, Bob because they want to celebrate the Catholic League.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they're talking about a Catholic League um Hall of Fame, you know, the history of the Catholic League.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so I think I talked to David, I thought I thought a book about the history of the Catholic League would be would be really good.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_01: All the great players that came out of there.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is there still there's still one in Philadelphia, isn't there?
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_00: That the or is that just like a private school league?
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think it's a private school league.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_04: I know I know that was big in basketball uh over the years.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's like that IMG Academy, like those kind of Yeah, like like that kind of Wh which is actually something we we cover in the book.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um Will Chamberlain's uh Philadelphia High School against Farrell, um who were who were the uh PIAA champions, but they couldn't play because Chamberlain played at a Catholic League school that wasn't part of the PIAA.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_04: So that big upset uh um in the 50s uh is covered in the book, and and we break down why those schools could never play.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So my cousin Dan Rooney, uh the late Dan Rooney, who was uh he was um uh he was a quarterback for North Catholic.
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um he finished uh all Catholic League uh second team quarterback to Johnny Ineidas.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Johnny Anidas was at St.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Justin and he was he might have some trouble beating him out, I'm thinking.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well the funny thing, uh Dan used to always tell the story that you know the Stewart cut Johnny and Idis and Dan Dan they cut him in revenge or there's you know, Joe Montana, I mean Tommy Clements, the the players that came through the Catholic uh sports leagues were uh uh revenge.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_04: But that that's that certainly would be an interesting subject, and and certainly will be on the docket going forward.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that would be great.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_03: The 55 Sugar Bowl, I think that'd be another great story because the the governor of Georgia wanted Georgia Tech to forfeit that game.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's a lot of really great history there too, and then there's some controversy in that game.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_04: So uh that boy, that would you if you watch the clip of that play, yeah, which which I have several times, you read the the recount in the papers at the time, they claim it was a foul, but you look at the play, there is no way that's a pass interference call.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And and and and it and then it makes you wonder because we have plenty of bad missed pass interference calls today, right?
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Was it intentional or was it just one of those things that could happen on any play?
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and the referee was actually from Pittsburgh.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_03: From Pittsburgh, that's right.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So my old boss Paul Martha used to talk about he was on that uh 63 team that was supposed to play Navy, the uh The Noble.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, noble Which we we have a book we just put out on that called Unin Uninvited.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um very fascinating.
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was Ditka Ditka on the Noble team?
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, he wasn't on the that was after him, yeah.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, did get I I you know one of the greatest life was the assassination weekend uh at Forbes Field.
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was a big contract.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Pete Ravell always regretted you know not um not canceling or postponing those games.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the Stewart played the Bears that weekend, and I think uh Dick was a rookie that year.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he sometimes you see it pop up on NFL films or whatever.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_01: He made a catch and run where he looked like um you know, Darnell Washington, like on stairway.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just you know, dragging people to the end zone.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And he he he said that he was a combination of the adrenaline of playing back in Pittsburgh for the first time as the pro and and the circumstances around the assassination, just he was on just such a an adrenaline box.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, a lot of great stories.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and and I think as Steve and I have done this podcast for a few years, one one of the things that always amazes me is we we like never run out of topics.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, you know, you would think that Pittsburgh sports history only has so many things to cover, but there's just there's just layer after layer after layer and story after story, and things that people didn't know about and angles you can come at.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_03: So um real really excited to uh to check out this book.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Once again, folks, it's called Pennsylvania Made: The History of Sports in Pennsylvania.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_03: We will have links in the show description where you can find that online, but you'll also be able to find that if you live in the Pittsburgh area in your local bookstore.
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, David, Tom, thank you so much for being with us today.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Fun morning.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, folks, so much for listening.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Remember that you can subscribe to the podcast.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Please give us a rating if your podcast service allows that.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_03: You can also check us out online on Facebook or Instagram, and we will catch you next time.