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Show 246: Hell, part 1 · The Uncensored Catholic

0:59
Speaker 1: Hey y'all, welcome to this week's show. We are continuing
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Speaker 1: on our series, the classic book, The End of This
1:06
Speaker 1: Present World and the Mysteries of the Life to Come.
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Speaker 1: Or is it The End of the Mysteries of the
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Speaker 1: World to Come? I can't remember. But anyway, we'll begin
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Speaker 1: talking today about eternal punishment and hell, essentially. We talked
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Speaker 1: about purgatory last week, finished our series on that, and
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Speaker 1: now we'll be talking about hell, which, while unpleasant to discuss,
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Speaker 1: is a very important topic. But before we get into that,
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Speaker 1: we'll get a couple of questions and answers, four or
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Speaker 1: five of them, from the classic work Radio Replies. And
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Speaker 1: in there, the priests and their questioners are continuing to
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Speaker 1: discuss purgatory. The questioner asks the priests, What is the
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Speaker 1: punishment of purgatory? And they answer, when the soul leaves
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Speaker 1: the body, that which can think, remember, love, hate, be
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Speaker 1: happy or miserable has gone from that body. A corpse
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Speaker 1: cannot do these things, and the soul with these capabilities
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Speaker 1: goes into a new state of being as a separated spirit.
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Speaker 1: And my true self, separated from the distractions of this world,
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Speaker 1: will perceive clearly and fully its own unfitness for God's presence,
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Speaker 1: a perception which will mean unspeakable suffering. The exact nature
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Speaker 1: of this suffering we do not know, but it is
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Speaker 1: compared in Scripture to the action of fire afflicting a
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Speaker 1: sensitive body. Although it is not defined as dogma that
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Speaker 1: there is a real fire of purgatory, it is the
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Speaker 1: general opinion of theologians that there is a real fire
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Speaker 1: somewhat analogous to the fire of hell. However, it be
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Speaker 1: explained the fact that purgatorial suffering waits the imperfect has
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Speaker 1: been revealed by God. The person asks, when did God
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Speaker 1: make purgatory? And the answer, heaven, of course, has always existed.
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Speaker 1: For where God is, there is heaven. Hell was made
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Speaker 1: when the devil and his followers fell from grace. There
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Speaker 1: was no purgatory for them. Purgatory then was made when
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Speaker 1: men began to sin and die, was sin repented of,
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Speaker 1: but not fully expiated by the sufferings of this life.
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Speaker 1: Men under the old law went to purgatory, just as
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Speaker 1: those do who live under the new law. And they ask,
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Speaker 1: where is purgatory? And the answer, God has not deigned
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Speaker 1: to satisfy our curiosity on that point, and the knowledge
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Speaker 1: is not of practical importance to us. The fact that
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Speaker 1: there is a purgatory has been revealed by God, and
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Speaker 1: when he reveals a fact, we cannot say to him, well, I,
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Speaker 1: for one, refuse to believe it until you tell me
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Speaker 1: more about it. God proves a thing by saying it,
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Speaker 1: for he is truth itself, but we have but to
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Speaker 1: prove that he said it. A person asks, how do
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Speaker 1: you know that there are any souls in purgatory? And
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Speaker 1: the priest answered, I know that 100,000 people die daily.
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Speaker 1: Of course, this was written in the 1920s, much more
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Speaker 1: than that now. I refuse to believe that they all
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Speaker 1: go to hell, and I feel quite sure that they
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Speaker 1: are not all fit for the immediate entry into heaven. Moreover,
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Speaker 1: you would find far more difficulty in endeavoring to show
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Speaker 1: that there are no souls in purgatory. And he asked,
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Speaker 1: how do you know that you can help the souls
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Speaker 1: in purgatory by your prayers? And the answer, God would
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Speaker 1: not have inspired the Jews to pray for the departed
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Speaker 1: if such prayers were of no avail. Christians have always
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Speaker 1: prayed for the dead, a practice fully warranted by the
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Speaker 1: doctrine of the community of saints. And if we can
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Speaker 1: pray for our dear ones who are in trouble in
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Speaker 1: this life, our prayers can certainly follow them in their
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Speaker 1: future difficulties. All prayer is addressed to the same God
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Speaker 1: who is present to the souls of our dear departed
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Speaker 1: as he is to us. And just as a side,
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Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting about a week ago, um,
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Speaker 1: I was watching the news and they did some clip
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Speaker 1: on the holy site in Jerusalem. You know, I want
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Speaker 1: to say it was the Western Wall, but it could
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Speaker 1: have been somewhere else because I know I watched several
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Speaker 1: of them in a row. And, you know, the place
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Speaker 1: was just packed as, of course, as usual. And there
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Speaker 1: were Christian tourists there mostly. And there were also Jewish
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Speaker 1: tourists and probably Jewish residents there. And they asked what
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Speaker 1: they were praying for. And the Jews all said, we're
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Speaker 1: praying for deceased loved ones. We're praying for the repose
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Speaker 1: of their souls. And the majority Protestant Christian people who
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Speaker 1: were there to check out Israel were really shocked to
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Speaker 1: find out that the Jewish doctrine of praying for the
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Speaker 1: souls in purgatory is the same as the Catholic doctrine
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Speaker 1: of praying for the souls in purgatory. And in exact opposition,
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Speaker 1: to Protestant doctrine, which says there is no purgatory and
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Speaker 1: our prayers can't help the dead. Well, the reason for
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Speaker 1: that is Lutheran Calvin and the rest of them stripped
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Speaker 1: Maccabees from the Bible. So most Protestants don't know that
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Speaker 1: that is traditional Jewish belief that we inherited as Christians
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Speaker 1: from Judaism. Yeah, they were very, very uncomfortable with that.
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Speaker 1: But anyway, the person then asked, Is it your own
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Speaker 1: personal conviction such that you will want others to pray
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Speaker 1: for you? Is it your own conviction that you will
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Speaker 1: want others to pray for you? And the priest's answer,
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Speaker 1: it is. All who have the Catholic faith believe in
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Speaker 1: prayer for the dead. It is not a doctrine for
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Speaker 1: the laity only, and I sincerely hope that friends will
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Speaker 1: pray for me and have masses offered on my behalf.
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Speaker 1: When God has taken me from this world, I shall
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Speaker 1: need them. Nothing defiled will enter heaven. And if at
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Speaker 1: death one's soul is not absolutely perfect in virtue proportionally
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Speaker 1: to the grace it has received, it is defiled by
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Speaker 1: imperfection of some sort. If we say that we have
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Speaker 1: no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not
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Speaker 1: in us. 1 John 1.8 Masses and prayers offered for
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Speaker 1: me after my death will help expiate such imperfections as
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Speaker 1: I unfortunately possess. Um... Let's see. Oh, well, one more
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Speaker 1: question because it's the same question I was following. He says,
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Speaker 1: so you expect to get redemption on the nod. You
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Speaker 1: are fortunate. He says, I am, and not a soul
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Speaker 1: will be saved who does not owe it to the
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Speaker 1: death of Christ on the cross and who would not
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Speaker 1: admit that this was purely free and a gratuitous gift
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Speaker 1: wholly undeserved by men. Mass merely applies the satisfactory value
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Speaker 1: of Christ's death to my soul. Meanwhile, those who deny
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Speaker 1: purgatory and the necessity of expiation wish to obtain salvation
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Speaker 1: much more on the nod, as you call it, than Catholics.
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Speaker 1: All right. Now let's get to our book about the
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Speaker 1: end times. We have a sip of water here. And
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Speaker 1: we are up to chapter six, or these are actually conferences.
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Speaker 1: These were talks that were given. Eternal Punishment and Destiny
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Speaker 1: of the Reprobate. There is one terrible truth in Christianity,
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Speaker 1: which in our time, even more than in previous centuries,
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Speaker 1: arouses irrepressible horror in the heart of man. That truth
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Speaker 1: is the eternity of the pains of hell. No sooner
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Speaker 1: is this dogma stated than the minds become agitated. Hearts
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Speaker 1: shake and passions harden and rage against this doctrine and
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Speaker 1: unwelcome voices which proclaim it. Ought we then be silently
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Speaker 1: being shrouded in oblivion and essential truth about man's most
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Speaker 1: important concern, his final destiny beyond the short years of
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Speaker 1: this exile on earth? Yet, if hell was a reality,
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Speaker 1: whatever silence we might maintain over this fundamental question would
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Speaker 1: not shake its certainty. All the attenuations and pallatives of
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Speaker 1: human language cannot shorten its durations. it would be the
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Speaker 1: height of folly to convince ourselves that if we turn
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Speaker 1: our minds away from this fatal possibility and try hard
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Speaker 1: not to believe in it, we shall manage someday to
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Speaker 1: avoid its rigor. In this series of conferences wherein we
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Speaker 1: propose to deal with the things related to the future
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Speaker 1: of man and his immoral destiny, we could not leave
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Speaker 1: out the punishment of life to come without failing in
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Speaker 1: our duty and acting like a false, negligent doctor who,
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Speaker 1: for the sake of sparing his patient the suffering of
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Speaker 1: an operation, On this subject, Christ himself did not think
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Speaker 1: it fit to speak with circumspection and reserve. He continually
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Speaker 1: emphasized the punishments reserved for the sinners and on many
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Speaker 1: occasions speaks about exterior darkness, the fire which is not extinguished,
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Speaker 1: and the prison without an exit, where there will be
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Speaker 1: gnashing of teeth and unending tears. When human justice wishes
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Speaker 1: to strike down an evil man, a scaffold is erected
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Speaker 1: in the public square and the people are summoned to
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Speaker 1: be present at the terrible spectacle. In some lands, the
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Speaker 1: broken body of the miscreant is left for days on end,
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Speaker 1: hanging by the road or upon the gibbet where he
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Speaker 1: breathed his last in order that such an example may
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Speaker 1: frighten wrongdoers who might be led astray by wicked passions.
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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ acts in the same way as human justice.
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Speaker 1: He shows the malefact or the sword which hangs over
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Speaker 1: his head so that being stricken with fear, he may
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Speaker 1: not contravene his law and may do good instead of evil.
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Speaker 1: Saint Ignatius of Loyola used to say that he knew
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Speaker 1: of no sermon more useful and beneficial than those on hell.
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Speaker 1: Reflections on the beauties of virtues and delights and attractions
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Speaker 1: of divine love have little influence upon core sensual men.
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Speaker 1: Amidst the noisy pleasures of their lives, the seductive bad
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Speaker 1: examples set before them, the traps and pitfalls set beneath
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Speaker 1: their feet, the threat of hell was the only curb
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Speaker 1: powerful enough to keep them on the path of duty.
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Speaker 1: For the same reason, St. Teresa would often bid her
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Speaker 1: austere nuns to go down to hell in spirit, and
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Speaker 1: throughout their life, so as to avoid, she said, going
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Speaker 1: there in reality after their death. In the study which
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Speaker 1: we are about to undertake on this serious question of
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Speaker 1: the fate reserved for those who die at enmity with God,
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Speaker 1: we shall avoid all disputed opinions preceded by rigorous reasoning
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Speaker 1: and with the aid of sound theology, taking as our
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Speaker 1: sole basis scripture and the true knowledge of tradition and
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Speaker 1: of the fathers. In the first place, does hell exist?
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Speaker 1: And is it certain that the punishment endured there are eternal? Secondly,
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Speaker 1: of what nature is the punishment of hell and where
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Speaker 1: does it take place? And thirdly, can the mercy of
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Speaker 1: God be reconciled with the idea of a justice which
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Speaker 1: no reparation can ever appease? No man can undertake the
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Speaker 1: study of these supreme considerations without hearing the echo of
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Speaker 1: these words of scripture resounding in his innermost soul. Be watchful,
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Speaker 1: serve the Lord thy God, and keep his commandments, for
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Speaker 1: in this is the whole of man. He who reflects
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Speaker 1: upon these awesome truths is certain to improve. He will
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Speaker 1: at once feel his spirit transformed and his nature enhanced
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Speaker 1: in strength of virtue and love of God. That the
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Speaker 1: punishments of hell are eternal is a truth formally taught
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Speaker 1: by Holy Scripture. It is part of the Christian creed.
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Speaker 1: Numerous councils have defined it as an article of faith. St.
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Speaker 1: Matthew in chapter 18 and St. John in chapter 14
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Speaker 1: of the Apocalypse speaking about the pains of the demon
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Speaker 1: and the reprobate say that they will be of enlistration, St.
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Speaker 1: Mark chapter 9, and Isaiah chapter 66 says that their
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Speaker 1: fire will not be extinguished and their worm will not die.
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Speaker 1: Quoting these words, St. Augustine remarks that the nature of
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Speaker 1: this worm and the materiality or immateriality of fire is
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Speaker 1: open to discussion, but what is true beyond all disputes
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Speaker 1: from the words of the prophets is that the rigors
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Speaker 1: of this fire will never be moderated and that the
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Speaker 1: tortures of this worm will never diminish. When Jesus Christ
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Speaker 1: speaks about the supreme sentence which he will pronounce one day,
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Speaker 1: He retains and confirms the same parity between justification and condemnation,
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Speaker 1: neither in the rewards of the just or the punishment
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Speaker 1: of the wicked does he make any distinction or degree
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Speaker 1: of time. And these shall go into everlasting punishment, but
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Speaker 1: the just into life everlasting. Thus, if eternal life can
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Speaker 1: have no limit of time, eternal death, too, will be
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Speaker 1: without limit or end. From these various testimonies, we know
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Speaker 1: that mercy is excluded from hell. There can be no
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Speaker 1: place there for redemption. Kia in inferno nulla est redemptio.
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Speaker 1: No redemption in hell. Moreover, there are only three ways
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Speaker 1: whereby the reprobate and the demons could be released from
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Speaker 1: justice and obtain freedom or mitigation for their pains. By
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Speaker 1: a true and sincere repentance or by the power of
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Speaker 1: prayers of saints and the work of satisfaction offered up
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Speaker 1: by the living. or else by the destruction of their existence.
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Speaker 1: In other words, it is absolutely impossible for God to
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Speaker 1: take them to himself. He would, by making them cease
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Speaker 1: to exist, thereby bring their torment to an end. Now,
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Speaker 1: the reprobate cannot do penance. God has never granted pardon
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Speaker 1: to Satan because Satan has never repented. Sometime, says St. Thomas,
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Speaker 1: a person repents and hates the sin in one or
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Speaker 1: two ways, absolutely or accidentally. He who hates sin absolutely
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Speaker 1: hates it on account of its intrinsic ugliness and because
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Speaker 1: it is an offense against God. He who hates it
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Speaker 1: accidentally hates it not out of love of God, but
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Speaker 1: out of love of himself. In other words, he does
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Speaker 1: not really detest sin, but only the pain, the evils
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Speaker 1: which it has brought him. The will of the damned
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Speaker 1: is still inclined to evil, and their horror and destitution
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Speaker 1: of their punishment is neither repentance nor atonement. Undoubtedly, they
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Speaker 1: are consumed by desires and dreams, but the object of
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Speaker 1: these dreams is their own happiness, which they would arrange
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Speaker 1: independently of God. Such is the dream of demons and
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Speaker 1: the damned, a dream eternally futile, which consumes them in
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Speaker 1: unceasing despair and rage, so the damned cannot repent. Can
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Speaker 1: they share in the prayers and merits of the living?
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Speaker 1: If this were so, Lucifer and his angels would be
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Speaker 1: able in the more or less distant future To return
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Speaker 1: to favor, consequently, they would become holy creatures worthy of
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Speaker 1: reverence and love by the same right as the cherubim
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Speaker 1: and the archangels whom they would one day embrace in
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Speaker 1: eternal communion. It would follow, too, that the church would
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Speaker 1: be obliged to pray for demons. The demons are, in truth,
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Speaker 1: our worst enemies, but the precept of charity requires us
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Speaker 1: to pray for our enemies without exception. The church prays
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Speaker 1: for the persecutors in this world because during the present
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Speaker 1: life they can produce worthy fruits of repentance, but even
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Speaker 1: on the day of judgment, When she would be filled
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Speaker 1: with love and holiness, she would not pray for those
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Speaker 1: sentenced by the just judge to everlasting torments. If the
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Speaker 1: reprobate can expect to be saved one day, not only
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Speaker 1: must the church pray for them, but in addition, we
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Speaker 1: do not see why she would forbid the faithful to
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Speaker 1: venerate them and why she would not gather up the
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Speaker 1: remains of the Nero's and Robespierre's and Merritt's to honor
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Speaker 1: them on the altar by the same right as the
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Speaker 1: ashes of Aloysius, Gonzagus, Vincent de Paul, and Francis de Sales.
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Speaker 1: In short, it is evident that the sufferings of the
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Speaker 1: reprobate will have no end, and their existence will never
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Speaker 1: be destroyed. Holy Scripture depicts their pitiful state, calling it
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Speaker 1: Secundamore's second death. St. Gregory says it will be a
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Speaker 1: death that will never be consummated, an end always followed
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Speaker 1: by a new beginning, a dissolution that will never bring decay. St.
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Speaker 1: Augustine expresses with no less vigor and clarity the sad
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Speaker 1: condition of that death while letting the soul subsist eternally,
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Speaker 1: will make it endure its pains, which, let's see, that
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Speaker 1: death which, while letting the soul subsist eternally, will make
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Speaker 1: it endure its pangs and horrors in all their intensity.
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Speaker 1: It cannot be said that there will be the life
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Speaker 1: of a soul in hell, since the soul will not
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Speaker 1: share in any way with the supernatural life of God.
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Speaker 1: It will not share in any way in the supernatural
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Speaker 1: life of God. It cannot be said that there will
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Speaker 1: be life in the body, since the body will there
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Speaker 1: be a prey to all kinds of pains. Hence, this
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Speaker 1: second death will be more cruel than the first because
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Speaker 1: death can never bring it to an end. To these
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Speaker 1: theological proofs, let us add the proofs of reason. If
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Speaker 1: they were not an eternal hell, Christianity would disappear and
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Speaker 1: the moral order would be abolished. This truth about the
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Speaker 1: great eternity of punishment is linked essentially to the great
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Speaker 1: truths of religion, to the fall of man, to the
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Speaker 1: incarnation and redemption, which logically imply its certainty. If there
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Speaker 1: were no hell, why would Jesus have descended from heaven?
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Speaker 1: Why his abasement in crib and his ignominy's sufferings and
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Speaker 1: sacrifice on the cross? This excess of love on the
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Speaker 1: part of a God who became man in order to
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Speaker 1: die would have been an act devoid of any wisdom
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Speaker 1: out of proportion with its declared aim if it had
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Speaker 1: been simply a matter of delivering us from a temporal
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Speaker 1: transient punishment such as purgatory. Man then had fallen irredeemably
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Speaker 1: upon evil days. and was condemned to infinite disgrace since
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Speaker 1: only a divine remedy could rise him up again. Otherwise,
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Speaker 1: we should have to say that Christ redeemed us only
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Speaker 1: from finite punishment, from which we might have freed ourselves
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Speaker 1: by our own amends, and in that case, would not
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Speaker 1: the treasures of his blood be superfluous? There would no
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Speaker 1: longer be any redemption in the strict and absolute sense
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Speaker 1: of the word. Jesus Christ would not be our Savior.
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Speaker 1: The debt of boundless gratitude and love which he demands
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Speaker 1: of men would be an inordinate and unwarranted claim. With
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Speaker 1: God made man cast down from the throne of our
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Speaker 1: hearts and our worship Christianity would become a hoax and
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Speaker 1: all consistent minds would necessarily be led to reject revelation
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Speaker 1: and reject God himself. If there is no eternal hell,
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Speaker 1: there is no moral order. The foundation of the moral
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Speaker 1: order is the absolute and essential difference between good and evil.
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Speaker 1: Good and evil are different in essence because Their conclusions
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Speaker 1: are different and they result in opposite outcomes. But if
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Speaker 1: we abolish the eternal sanction of punishment, vice and virtue
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Speaker 1: reach the same conclusion. Each by different means attains its
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Speaker 1: last end, which is repose and happiness in the bliss
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Speaker 1: of God. The same fate falls to the share of
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Speaker 1: those who have been instruments of evil and those who
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Speaker 1: right up to the end have been incorruptible vessels of good.
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Speaker 1: Need some water here. Yeah. You may say agreed, but
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Speaker 1: it will be a thousand or a hundred thousand years
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Speaker 1: sooner for the just and a thousand or a hundred
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Speaker 1: years later for the wicked. What does that matter? A
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Speaker 1: period of atonement, however long you suppose it to be,
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Speaker 1: does not constitute an essential difference between the destiny of
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Speaker 1: the one and that of the other. During our fleeting
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Speaker 1: transient lives, when moments once past never recur, a period
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Speaker 1: of a thousand or a hundred thousand years is of
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Speaker 1: some consequence. But as soon as man has entered into
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Speaker 1: eternal life, a thousand or a hundred thousand years no
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Speaker 1: longer have any significance. They are less than a grain
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Speaker 1: of sand in the desert or a drop of water
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Speaker 1: in the ocean. Imagine a future composed of punishments as
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Speaker 1: long as you wish, double the years, pile centuries upon centuries,
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Speaker 1: so long as the end is the same for all,
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Speaker 1: the past counts for nothing. Once a punishment is over,
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Speaker 1: the extent of its duration compared with eternity would seem
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Speaker 1: such a tiny quantity, so infinitesimal that it would be
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Speaker 1: as if it did not exist. It would in fact
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Speaker 1: be true to say, since there is no perceptible difference
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Speaker 1: between one eternity and another, eternity and another, that sin
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Speaker 1: would have brought no harm upon the sinner. For example,
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Speaker 1: let us suppose that as punishment for my sins, God
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Speaker 1: hurls me into the flames for centuries. I have this consolation.
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Speaker 1: I know that I have for myself a measure of
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Speaker 1: comparison mathematically equal to that of the just man. I
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Speaker 1: have eternity. So there is an eternity of joy and
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Speaker 1: glory for the one who served God and loved him
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Speaker 1: until death and an eternity of joy and glory for
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Speaker 1: the wicked man who thrilled with the pleasure as he
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Speaker 1: did evil. and constantly spurn the divine laws and commandments. Now,
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Speaker 1: if these two final ends were the same, if by
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Speaker 1: way of evil, even as by way of good, we
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Speaker 1: unfailingly attain life, the life of eternity, the conclusion is
21:19
Speaker 1: inescapable that virtue and crime are two means towards an
21:23
Speaker 1: equal security, that it is optional for man to follow
21:26
Speaker 1: one or the other as he pleases, and that the
21:28
Speaker 1: most sordid of lives and the most pure lives are
21:32
Speaker 1: of equal merit and dignity, since both lead to the
21:36
Speaker 1: same perfection and happiness. Once such a scheme is granted, morality,
21:40
Speaker 1: public order, and all semblance of honesty must disappear from
21:43
Speaker 1: the earth. Justice is stripped of its sanction. Conscience is
21:47
Speaker 1: a prejudice. Virtue and sacrifice are a stupid exertion. Remove
21:51
Speaker 1: the fear of eternal punishment for mankind, and the world
21:54
Speaker 1: will be filled with crime. The most execrable misdeeds will
21:59
Speaker 1: become a duty whenever they can be committed without risk
22:01
Speaker 1: or prison or the sword. Hell will simply happen sooner
22:05
Speaker 1: instead of being postponed to the future life. It will
22:08
Speaker 1: be inaugurated in the midst of humanity in the present life.
22:11
Speaker 1: As a contemporary writer has said, there can be no
22:14
Speaker 1: middle way for society. It is either God or the gun.
22:19
Speaker 1: If there is no sanction beyond death, might prevails over... Oh,
22:22
Speaker 1: here we go. If there is no sanction beyond death,
22:28
Speaker 1: might prevails over right, the hangman becomes the pivot and
22:31
Speaker 1: the cornerstone of the social order, and justice will be
22:34
Speaker 1: proclaimed in the name of death itself, of being rather
22:37
Speaker 1: proclaimed in the name of God. Besides, remarks another moralist,
22:41
Speaker 1: by virtue of what right will the courts repress crime,
22:46
Speaker 1: when it has the approbation of divine impunity, and when
22:50
Speaker 1: internal justice undertakes not to bestir itself to impose its
22:55
Speaker 1: legitimate punishment. The conscience of the nations has rebelled against
23:01
Speaker 1: this monstrous consequence. Amidst the explosion of error and the
23:05
Speaker 1: collapse of true belief, the doctrine of a future state
23:08
Speaker 1: of rewards and punishment has remained unshaken. It is found
23:13
Speaker 1: amongst pagans. Virgil gave the expression to their belief in
23:16
Speaker 1: these famous lines. Let's see. That's in Latin. Um, skip it.
23:23
Speaker 1: Then he quotes Plato who says the vile miscreants whose
23:26
Speaker 1: souls are incurable are tormented by punishments, which convulse and
23:30
Speaker 1: do not cure them. Souls who have committed grave crimes
23:33
Speaker 1: are not hurled into the abyss, which is called hell.
23:36
Speaker 1: Such as the judgment, but souls who have committed grave
23:40
Speaker 1: crimes are hurled into the abyss, which is called hell.
23:43
Speaker 1: Such as the judgment of the gods who dwell in heaven,
23:45
Speaker 1: the good are reunited to the good, the wicked to
23:47
Speaker 1: the wicked. That was from Plato. Um, Let me see
23:51
Speaker 1: if I can just translate this Latin on the fly. Nah.
23:58
Speaker 1: Too many words I'm not sure about. Well, anyway. How
24:03
Speaker 1: astonishing this ascent among all men, poets, philosophers, people's kings,
24:08
Speaker 1: civilized and barbarian, to a truth which troubles our minds
24:12
Speaker 1: and which men would have so much interest in denying.
24:15
Speaker 1: Here we might shelter behind the authority and weight of
24:18
Speaker 1: this fundamental axiom, I actually knew that quote. That's why
24:21
Speaker 1: I was able to translate it quickly. And it said
24:23
Speaker 1: in the footnotes what it meant. So don't be impressed.
24:25
Speaker 1: I'm still learning Latin as I go. All the important
24:49
Speaker 1: points of Catholic theology have given rise to dispute except hell,
24:54
Speaker 1: which has escaped that common law. It has come down
24:57
Speaker 1: to us without encountering one man who disputes justice or
25:01
Speaker 1: at least cast doubt upon its awesome certainty. The Protestants
25:04
Speaker 1: who denied so many things did not deny this. Destroyers
25:08
Speaker 1: of whatever most offended the human spirit of penance, virginity,
25:12
Speaker 1: and the values of good work, they did not strip
25:15
Speaker 1: hell of its terrifying attributes. Their hands, which had not
25:19
Speaker 1: respected the door of the tabernacle, were in the flesh
25:21
Speaker 1: of the man God reposes in bounty and sacrifice, drew
25:26
Speaker 1: back from the threshold of this place of suffering. Let's see,
25:31
Speaker 1: there's a footnote there. I wonder where that quote came from.
25:36
Speaker 1: Le Cordaire de la Sanction du Gouvernement Divin. Yeah, my
25:43
Speaker 1: French pronunciations aren't great either. I failed French three times
25:49
Speaker 1: in school, middle school and high school. I failed Spanish
25:54
Speaker 1: also three times and finally passed with a D. Self-taught Latin,
26:00
Speaker 1: and I actually do a lot better with Latin. I'm
26:03
Speaker 1: not really sure. I don't know. I could not learn
26:07
Speaker 1: foreign languages in school. I don't know why. I think
26:12
Speaker 1: it was probably the method of teaching, but, you know.
26:15
Speaker 1: What are you going to do? Public school is public school.
26:18
Speaker 1: Contemporary rationalism alone has dared to go as far as
26:21
Speaker 1: to deny it, and strange to say, has done so
26:23
Speaker 1: by taking refuge in the very bosom of divine perfection.
26:27
Speaker 1: It has impugned the justice, greatness, and wisdom of God,
26:30
Speaker 1: and even while denying redemption, appeals to that very excess
26:35
Speaker 1: of love which Christ poured out as he expired on
26:38
Speaker 1: the cross. God, it is said, is too perfect, too sublime,
26:42
Speaker 1: too noble a being to want to crush a frail
26:46
Speaker 1: creature eternally beneath the panoply of his power, one who
26:50
Speaker 1: has been led into evil by an outburst of anger
26:53
Speaker 1: or by weakness. That would be an act of vengeance
26:55
Speaker 1: or retaliation, unworthy of his glory and perfections. We reply
26:59
Speaker 1: to that. If crime went unpunished, greatness would cease to
27:03
Speaker 1: be prerogative of God and would belong as fullest to
27:06
Speaker 1: sinful man. It would rest with him by a single
27:10
Speaker 1: act of his will to make rebellion triumph against divine government.
27:13
Speaker 1: So God must have been laboring under illusion the day when,
27:17
Speaker 1: for his glory, leaving his state of repose, he enacted
27:20
Speaker 1: the fundamental law that the creature must tend towards him
27:24
Speaker 1: in each of its aspirations, serve and love him by
27:26
Speaker 1: constant acts of praise, allegiance, and worship. God would then
27:30
Speaker 1: no longer be our essential and final end. Let us
27:33
Speaker 1: suppose if some have dared to maintain that hell was
27:36
Speaker 1: merely a place of vexation and sorrow, where the captive
27:39
Speaker 1: soul undergoes only a mitigated, limited suffering. Let us imagine
27:43
Speaker 1: the supposition Satan and his accomplices, surpassing themselves in rebellion
27:48
Speaker 1: and pride, and saying to the God who rejected them,
27:50
Speaker 1: We are in good shape, and we possess a tolerable
27:53
Speaker 1: enough existence for us to agree to do without you forever.
27:57
Speaker 1: It is true that we are far from possessing perfect bliss,
28:00
Speaker 1: but we have a quality of life and repose, which
28:03
Speaker 1: is our own work, and we are content with it.
28:05
Speaker 1: If we are not radiant like your angels, at least
28:08
Speaker 1: we are not your subjects. We do not serve you
28:10
Speaker 1: or obey you. Such would be the sentiments of every
28:13
Speaker 1: creature shut out from God's bosom if he succeeded in
28:16
Speaker 1: rejecting his heritage without experiencing pain, intense and unending, like
28:22
Speaker 1: the happiness which he freely and obstinately spurned. Were God
28:25
Speaker 1: in order to alleviate the misery of the devils and
28:28
Speaker 1: the damned, to allow them but a shadow of good,
28:31
Speaker 1: a slender hope, a drop of water to refresh them,
28:33
Speaker 1: they would cling to that shadow, that semblance, with all
28:36
Speaker 1: the strength of their exhausted grasping will. They would strive
28:40
Speaker 1: with their whole soul after that crumb of solace, seeking
28:44
Speaker 1: to beguile themselves with it and to delude themselves to
28:47
Speaker 1: the extent and depth of their misfortune. And one would
28:51
Speaker 1: have to be ignorant of man's nature to imagine that
28:53
Speaker 1: he would not resign himself to this mitigated hell rather
28:56
Speaker 1: than bend the knee and submit. Finally, let us quote
29:05
Speaker 1: Suarez's argument, which complements and further clarifies St. Thomas. Hell,
29:11
Speaker 1: he says, is a prison which will also serve as
29:14
Speaker 1: an abode for the rebellious angels and for the demons.
29:17
Speaker 1: This abode cannot be other than the most unpleasant, obscure,
29:21
Speaker 1: and ignominious of all created places. It is fitting that
29:25
Speaker 1: it should be at the opposite end and the greatest
29:27
Speaker 1: distance from the one destined for the elect. Now, the
29:30
Speaker 1: elect will reign in eternity in the highest part of heaven,
29:33
Speaker 1: which is the Empyrean heaven, And so the lowest part
29:36
Speaker 1: of the earth is a place where the damned will
29:38
Speaker 1: suffer their torments. Let us observe, however, that it is
29:42
Speaker 1: not a truth of faith that hell is situated in
29:44
Speaker 1: the center of the earth. Um, let me check something. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
29:49
Speaker 1: All right. I can finish this chapter. No problem. Um,
29:54
Speaker 1: And so the church has not defined anything on this point.
29:58
Speaker 1: It is simply the most probable opinion based upon the
30:02
Speaker 1: almost unanimous testimony of the doctors and fathers. Okay. Remember, heaven, hell,
30:08
Speaker 1: purgatory exist outside of time and space. That's been clarified
30:15
Speaker 1: for us a great deal by, well, I mean, you
30:20
Speaker 1: think about the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima, um, the,
30:26
Speaker 1: the sun spinning around in the sky. I mean, all
30:28
Speaker 1: these things that are outside of the bounds of time
30:31
Speaker 1: and space are the things of God, uh, and various
30:35
Speaker 1: other messages and such. We don't need to think of
30:38
Speaker 1: hell as a physical place. Okay. Because the souls exist
30:42
Speaker 1: outside of physical time and space. So if you drilled
30:46
Speaker 1: to the center of the earth, you're not going to
30:47
Speaker 1: find hell. Okay. Um, You may find something down there
30:50
Speaker 1: you don't want to find. You probably would. But you're
30:53
Speaker 1: not going to find a realm of the immortal in
30:56
Speaker 1: physical time and space, as best I understand it anyway.
31:00
Speaker 1: So anyway, and whatever may be the case, the important thing,
31:04
Speaker 1: as St. John Chrysostom says, is not to know where
31:07
Speaker 1: hell is, but to ensure that we shall not one
31:09
Speaker 1: day be cast into it. Such then seems to be
31:13
Speaker 1: the place of hell. The fire which tortures the devil
31:16
Speaker 1: and the damned is a material fire, A material fire
31:19
Speaker 1: which makes its action felt on spirits and separated souls. Okay,
31:24
Speaker 1: material not in the sense of... Okay, the soul is
31:28
Speaker 1: entirely detached from the body. The soul is not subject
31:33
Speaker 1: to pain in the same way as the body. Whether
31:36
Speaker 1: or not the fires of hell are a material fire
31:39
Speaker 1: or a spiritual fire, we can understand that the souls
31:43
Speaker 1: in hell suffer. Okay, that's the bottom line. It remains
31:48
Speaker 1: for us to consider how the implacable severity of divine
31:51
Speaker 1: justice can be reconciled with its infinite mercy. And we
31:56
Speaker 1: will wrap it up there. There are some footnotes here
32:02
Speaker 1: about how hell's probably not at the center of the earth, obviously.
32:07
Speaker 1: We must remember that traditionally it's certainly been believed because
32:11
Speaker 1: people saw volcanoes. They saw fire erupting from the earth.
32:14
Speaker 1: They saw lava erupting. And so it would make sense
32:17
Speaker 1: that hell was under the earth. But when we understand
32:22
Speaker 1: the nature of the finite as opposed to the infinite,
32:27
Speaker 1: we understand that the material world, as we know it,
32:30
Speaker 1: is in fact passing away. And if hell were actually
32:33
Speaker 1: the center of the earth and this earth was going
32:35
Speaker 1: to pass away and be destroyed, then hell would be
32:38
Speaker 1: destroyed along with it. So that's not tenable to Christian doctrine. Anyway, y'all.
32:46
Speaker 1: I think people spend far too much time on trying
32:50
Speaker 1: to figure out such mysteries that the human mind really
32:54
Speaker 1: cannot understand, and in doing so, almost reduces them to trivialities.
33:02
Speaker 1: And I don't get that. But, you know, some people,
33:05
Speaker 1: their minds work differently than mine does. They're more literal.
33:07
Speaker 1: I'm not a very literal person. To an extent, I am.
33:11
Speaker 1: To an extent, I am. I mean, I would say literally,
33:14
Speaker 1: this is good, this is evil, this is right, this
33:16
Speaker 1: is wrong. But I'm able to comprehend analogies and symbolism
33:22
Speaker 1: in ways that some people just are not. And whether
33:25
Speaker 1: I'm right or they're right or I'm wrong, it is
33:28
Speaker 1: really of no matter to me so long as I
33:32
Speaker 1: believe in the teachings of Christ through the Catholic Church.
33:36
Speaker 1: I always say, I don't know anything. I believe what
33:40
Speaker 1: the church teaches. to be true. As long as I
33:44
Speaker 1: believe that, I'm good to go. As long as I
33:47
Speaker 1: try to follow it, I got no worries. All right,
33:50
Speaker 1: y'all have a good one, and I'll talk to you
33:53
Speaker 1: next time.