Latest / Hart & Hustle Podcast / How Missteps Can Turn Into Motivation: The Power of Belief and Resilience
Transcript
- Efrain: Welcome back to another episode here on the heart and also ⁓ got Kevin in the house. Kevin, where you watch, where are you actually tuning in from virtually? Kevin P. Thomas: I am in ⁓ Conway, Arkansas today from my office on the campus of University of Central Arkansas and just enjoying a beautiful Friday. Efrain: Love it. I have to start off on saying that I butchered the intro today and probably never happens in over two, 300 conversations, but that's the authentic in us, man. We're going to make mistakes. We continue, Kevin. Kevin, what's exciting for you, man, when we talk about just mistakes or we talk about losses, let's just start there. A lot of people think it's losses, but it's really lessons that we take. What major lessons you felt being in this industry you've learned? Kevin P. Thomas: That's right. Efrain: that really actually helped you become who you are today. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah, mean part of my story I think is maybe not necessarily a mistake, but those missteps that you have. I work in higher education. It's a field that bases itself in academics. It bases itself in students that are going to come to a campus and work and succeed and do the things that they can do to graduate. And I was a 16 ACT kid, right? Like the very first time I ever went to a college campus, I'm meeting with my faculty advisor and he looks at my stuff and says, shouldn't be here. Right? 16 ACT and he's like, how did you get admitted? And I'm like, I don't know, but I did. Like, let's go. And so you think about those missteps that are there, like from day one of like this process of like college education. I should have been here and I use that and you take the misstep that is like standardized tests and I do think standardized tests are misstep in general. But you take that misstep of things that are there and I put a chip on my shoulder, right? And that chip was, I got somebody that says I can't do something. I'm going to do it. I'm going to achieve. I'm going to succeed and it's going to be my way. And that little chip was there the whole time, probably in an unhealthy way, but it was there the whole time to say, nobody gets to tell me where I get to be. Like this is, this is where I need to be. I need Efrain: You you Kevin P. Thomas: to on a college campus, need to be thriving and I need to be doing things that I want to do. And so you think about those missteps that we talk about, like, yeah, maybe I didn't start off on the greatest path, but in the end, you know, that was a motivator to finish that degree in four years, to know that I was going to go do a master's degree, eventually get a doctorate. And I mean, like, this is part of the stories that I tell often when I'm working with college students that say, I don't know that I can do this. I had somebody that said I couldn't do this. and then when I completed my doctorate, I wrote letters to people including that faculty advisor that said, hey, when I'm walking across the stage, just know you are part of this journey and you probably don't remember that. But for me, it's been a great motivator and you've been a chip on my shoulder to succeed and missteps sometimes turn into motivation. And for me, that was definitely a motivating factor. Efrain: Yes! Hell yeah, I am that type of person when someone sits here and tells me I can't, I'm like, ⁓ I'm gonna prove you wrong. and I don't know where it comes from. Where do you think it comes from, Kevin? Like, where do you just have this drive? Because there's other people that take that and would say, man, and just beat themselves up over it. But clearly, you still like, yeah, okay, let me show you. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. You know, I think that for me it's those things that people will take and judge you on and whether that is in this case an ACT score that to me is completely meaningless to how smart somebody is. Being a good test taker does not mean that you're ⁓ a smart academic, right? Like you, you, are so many things that really make up what can be successful. Now flip side of that, if I was on a gymnastics floor and somebody said, can you do a summer salt cartwheel back flip? Efrain: You Kevin P. Thomas: twist around, do all the things. No, I cannot. And you can tell me I cannot, because that's never happening. So there are those things, but for me, the achievable is there for so many of us. And so I think it's when you look at somebody saying you can't do something that you know clearly you can, and you know that you can succeed at, and that you know you can work hard for. And there are things that clearly I'm not going be able to do. I'm not jumping off a diving board and doing a triple toe ax. I don't even know the terms, right? I'm not doing those things. Efrain: You Kevin P. Thomas: comes down to education, I know I can do the things to be successful. I know I could do those things. And that's what I think it comes down to is that you get a little charge, a little motivation, a little belief in you, and man, that can be just such the great motivator that's there. And when you're working with folks, and in my profession, working with students a lot, Seeing where the students are at, seeing where people are at and instilling a belief in them so that they understand they belong and that they can be a part of ⁓ a campus and part of a community, but part of a future that they see for themselves and knock down those roadblocks, knock down those obstacles that are there. That's the real shining moment that can happen when you deal with interactions and you work with people that really allow you to instill a belief in them. as opposed to cripple them with another roadblock. Efrain: I it. ⁓ I'm sitting here laughing when you said you couldn't do, you know, the double flips and whatever that is. And I'm like, with a little AI, man, it's all possible. We could see Kevin out here. Kevin P. Thomas: That's right. That's right. I need to put that in and be like, make me a gymnast. I don't know that I want to see me as a gymnast, but AI could do it. Efrain: Thank The things you see on AI, man, it's pretty funny. But I love it. I love that you said that because in high school, I graduated, barely graduated actually. I remember senior walkout and I was just excited that I finished the 12 years I was supposed to. But back to those standardized tests, I had, I think we had like a reading, a math, a science, and I think there was still that one that was still pending. So I couldn't graduate. But the last day of school, because the retakes. They tell me, hey, Ephraim, not only are you just leaving school today, you actually are going to graduate with a diploma. I'm like, ⁓ my God, not that I cared, right? But I was, ⁓ my God, even more exciting. But I say that because then I go off to college and I was a 3.5 student. and, you know, I always, people think that college is actually harder and I found it much easier. ⁓ probably because I was able to select the classes I was able to select when I was going, I was going more in the afternoon. I'm wide awake. Like I would just really tuned in, I think at that, at that time of my life. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Efrain: So even for those that are watching, man, when someone tells you you can't, I actually also had a counselor in high school tell me that I might as well get a nine to five because school wasn't for me. Just imagine if we listen to those people that don't even know us, right? Don't know what we're going through, don't know what we're capable of. And I think that's why I love when someone doubts me because I'm like, and sometimes just quietly, I'm like, ⁓ okay, like you'll see. Kevin P. Thomas: right. Great. Efrain: And I love that you went back to it because I am that guy that would go back and say, hey, thank you. Because sometimes people don't realize the fuel they gave you because they doubted you. And that's all you needed, right? To know your worth per se. ⁓ man, yeah, Kevin, I love that you went out there and got it, ⁓ Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Well, you know, it's a belief thing. ⁓ And it's not just with college students. You know, I've started jobs before where the people I've worked for have said, hey, this person's on your team. And you know, if you want to move on from them, like, you can do that. And it's like... Where have we gotten to in that conversation? Where have we gotten to in that belief in that person? And I really think that when you are starting teams, you're building teams, you're working as a leader, you're doing the things you're doing as an administrator, whatever that looks like in your role, everybody can thrive in an environment that somebody believes in them. And does that mean everybody's gonna succeed? No, but everybody has the ability to thrive. And some of those people that they've said, hey, you can get rid of those folks, you can move on. some of those folks have become my all-stars because I figured out how to work with them. I figured out the belief that they need to have. I figured out the support they needed to have. I figured out a way to hit the things that get them to be motivated. And that belief is just such a big thing that something didn't click before because like you're talking about for the high school counselor, they looked at you and said, Nope. And that's the same thing with sometimes with our employees and our staff and our team members and the people that come into our life. But that belief can be such a powerful thing that If you believe that they can succeed and you get to know them and you can really work with them to succeed, man, it can be such a powerful thing to their success and ultimately what they're able to do to help others in your roles. Efrain: Well, you're right. think it just the difference between a good leader and someone just taking a role, right? And I think we both probably seen that is like there's managers and there's actually leaders. And it's like, there's those that are there for a paycheck and there's those cause they really care about it. And I've always liked to play the leader perspective. never, I've always worked hand in hand, no matter what title I had. Cause I do believe that you never forget where it all started. So that's really where my mindset has came. But I think there was also really good leaders that Kevin P. Thomas: Right? Efrain: poured into me. was already running a store at 19 years old. I actually talking about calling someone back. I left Subway, man, maybe 10 years ago, right? But as I sit here and have these conversations about passion and purpose and people believing in you, there was someone at 19 years old that which is he just became a supervisor that believed in me and told me that I could do it. That's the first time someone says you could be a leader. And now I'm managing a store. I mean, the rest was history. Now I knew what I was capable of. And I called him the other day and I haven't talked to this guy in a long time. I said, Hey, I just want to say thank you. Like, thank you for putting up with a 19 year old version of me that was so hard headed and probably stubborn and giving you a difficult time. But you believed in me and I, and I was able to accomplish so many great things within Subway, but also out of Subway. And again, we may never talk again, but I do always feel like thank you for, for just, that's a great leader. You know, sometimes they will plant seeds, they will water them and never know. Kevin P. Thomas: Right. Efrain: But when you can go back and tell that person that it just feels so good as well for both parties. Kevin P. Thomas: It does. And see, this is why I knew I liked you. because I know the subway part of things. And I think that people that work in fast food or the food industry are amazing individuals. And they're some of the hardest workers that we have because I'm a Hardee's guy, right? Like I worked two years at Hardee's. so listen, I've done my time. Matter of fact, I went to Hardee's this morning for breakfast. That's my Friday morning thing. I'll go have a treat and go eat breakfast at Hardee's. you get a certain skill set that you pick up from that hard worker, good attitude, can do, want to achieve. Efrain: Ha ha! Okay. I love it. Thank Kevin P. Thomas: generally also like people because you're dealing with the public in an interesting way. Man, fast food people have it really like they work hard. You won't go back? Efrain: I learned a lot. I learned a lot. just won't go back though. No, to food. I wouldn't go back to food. know, I just, people are so picky with their food, man. And to be quite frank, I mean, it's so funny, cause I don't know that Subway people call it fast food, but I remember when I was like young and I was like, ⁓ never working fast food. But then I worked at Subway, which is damn near close to fast food, right? Like I get you in and out pretty good. Especially if I knew who you were. Kevin P. Thomas: Right? Yeah. Efrain: By the time you even walked into the store, your sub is already at the register. Like that's how good, you know, I became. But it's also funny when I go back and I sit here and critique, was like, I'll critique the bread. I'll critique all this stuff because I still have it in me. You just never forget those moments, man. So. ⁓ Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. But I think we get that right because we sat in the seat, so we get to be more critical. That's always been my opinion. It was like, well, if you didn't work in the food industry, shut your mouth. But if you did work in the food industry, then you can be a little more critical. Efrain: Yeah, bit. That is so funny. I actually did undercover boss. Do you know that? Yeah, for subway for sub edition, man. I was so young. ⁓ That show came out when I was 20 years old. So think the undercover boss episode, I was 20 years old, man. I was running a million dollar location and I would have never like it's so crazy, Kevin. When you speak. I'm a big believer in words that you say out loud. Kevin P. Thomas: No, I did not know that. Yeah. Efrain: And I was a young kid when I was like, ⁓ one day I'll be on national TV. One day I'll be on a stage, a host. Well, this is the stage and I'm hosted. National TV was undercover boss and I also did wrestling at one point, but all these different things, man. And those again, going back to moments, going back to people that change your life. was, I remember even subway, that gentleman that I'm down for me, still good friend to me that told me during the episode, he framed if my son grows up to be anything like you, I'll be happy father. I didn't have a father in my life, right? So I didn't have a male figure in my life. So when someone told me that, that was also the fuel to say, ⁓ shit, like he sees me as that. Like I got to get it, right? And when I hear someone say, man, you're a rock star. Really? ⁓ man, like it is so important that we, as you mentioned, really call out these things that people don't know they have within themselves. Cause a lot of times it's not that they're a bad person. Life is life-ing and something is happening to them and they just can't see past that dark tunnel. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Efrain: I used have to talk myself out of it. Like it's only temporarily. Like, you know, you've, you've seen this before. Like there's light at the end of the tunnel. I am so big on words of affirmation. Kevin, do you have words of affirmation? Were there leaders that were pouring into that you remember some of the things they were saying that you still carry today? Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah, I mean, I really, from a leadership standpoint... you know, there are people along the way that have just been transformational. And I think back to like my journey into higher education, housing was a big part of that initial journey. But when I was moving from housing to advising, retention, student success work on a college campus, I remember doing an interview and I had a conversation during a presentation I was doing and I said, listen, I don't know how to advise, but I'm going to do the best I can do. And afterwards, the woman that would eventually hire me, Dr. Ellen Bonagurou, who I think of as a mentor in the highest of ways. She came up to me and she says, never say that. Never say that. She goes, you know how to advise, you know how to help students, you know how to do these things, you just don't know the curriculum yet. And it's those type of things that's the framing of things that I think are so big in the work that we do. ⁓ And so, know, like my thing is everybody has different paths. And so like I've really embraced do good things. It's on my wall around me, you know, like just it, no matter what you're doing, do good. things and I've really embraced you know a culture of care and that really came from Ellen Bonagurro too to where you know when I worked at Western Kentucky University first day of class we were making sure that there were door hangers on every door on a campus that had 20,000 students that would say some type of culture of care approach and on the back had resources for those folks to utilize and you know so it was just building the things that could be helpful and get students on the right ⁓ steps from day one, but there were faculty ones that were there because they didn't know the resources that were available to help students. And so it's like, how can we help faculty and staff help students? And so it's those approaches of like that culture of care, do good things. Like people get annoyed so much because I'll be like, I appreciate you so much. And they're like, do you appreciate me? And I'm like, I do appreciate you so much. But it's those things of like just constantly affirming that those things are there because in leadership, no matter what field you work in, if it's higher education, if it's in the restaurant industry, ⁓ if it's in business of any way, care is the critical piece and you can't fake that. You can't fake care, right? Like you really have to get to know people, you got to get to believe in people and just like you're talking about with Undercover Boss for the words of affirmation and words of kindness that you got and the words of belief in you, that person took the time to get to know you and care and that care is such a big piece and when I have a team and on my campus of 100 Efrain: Mm-hmm. Kevin P. Thomas: Plus, ⁓ people think it's silly, but it's like, I know when their birthdays are, I know life events that are happening, I know the Roblox that are coming up. And are those things that are in my job description at all? Absolutely not. But those are things that if I don't know, they're not as happy in their job. If I don't know, they're not as successful in their job. If I don't know, they don't care about as much in their world to be in the office and to do the things and to impact students. And all of a sudden, if I'm somebody that cares for them, then they care about others. And that's really something that I've embraced, that culture of care approach, that appreciation for the work that they do. And that's really helped me, I think, leave a legacy of care, ⁓ legacy of support in the work that I've done, ⁓ and really is probably more about who I am as a leader than anything that comes from a textbook. Efrain: that and you're not just a leader perspective and the higher ed, you're actually a leader at home because you have a child that's about to go into college. How are you leading her through that process? You having the experience? I don't know if you guys have done some college tours. I don't know if you're biased and says, no, she's coming to this school. But I can imagine that you see the evolving of how we curate to our next generations, right? The way that we conversate with them, communicate with them. What is that looking like for you and the 17 year old and what is he teaching you that you're actually implementing back into the school? Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, so it's my son, and so, like, yeah, it's my son, Braden. This is an interesting part of this, right? This journey of being a parent and having a 17-year-old that's going through this process. And I'll say, I think he is... Efrain: ⁓ sorry, sorry, sorry. Kevin P. Thomas: beyond ready for whatever those next steps are. He grew up in the COVID education timeframe and so he really did become a self learner in a lot of ways and so I'm always so impressed. He's a published author, he has a book, he has two more that are being edited right now. I mean, he's a champ ⁓ in the work that he does. ⁓ But. Efrain: Wow. Kevin P. Thomas: It's one of these things like my day to day is often, will you look at this postcard we're going to send to students? Will you look at this email that we're going to send to students? What do you think about this technique? What do you think about how we do this campaign and that campaign? And then he's in the college search process and things will come to the house and he'll go to the mailbox and get it and be like, dad, this one's for you. What do you think of it? And I'm like, no, no, it's for you. You've got to decide what you think about. He's like, I'm good. I don't whatever. Right. Like, and so we've done some college tours and, I will say even in Efrain: you Kevin P. Thomas: ⁓ Me and his mom's approach to really education, like, you I have three degrees, his mom has two degrees. know, like we really embrace education as a whole. ⁓ and have a good understanding for it, it's an intimidating process. And so I can remember going to do that first college tour. We went to Wichita State University. I got a good friend there, Bobby Gando, who's just fantastic. And I said, Hey, I want to come check out what you're doing. Bring my son, let that be his first tour. Be wowed by what you're doing there at Wichita State. And we went and all the bells and whistles, private tour, golf cart, ⁓ good lunch, good experience, all those things. And we walked away and we're like, Braden, how you feel about it? Like what did you think? And he's like, I'm so overwhelmed by it. I'm so overwhelmed by the financial aid aspects. I'm so overwhelmed by the cost. I'm so overwhelmed by having to pick a major. And I grew up in it. And so that was a really great perspective for me as a parent to understand I know this world. I'm not a first generation student. My parents were blessed in a way that they went to college and supported me in my pursuits of education. ⁓ And so it makes me have a greater understanding of what first generation students are going through, what students that are being told education is not for them are going through because, you know, we look at it and say 10, 15, $20,000 and understand that that's good debt and that's debt that can be really, really powerful for your long-term success. But there are a lot of folks that will look at that and say, it's impossible, I can't do that. And so for my son to say, I'm overwhelmed by this, it's like, okay, well, let's talk about the metrics that are there. Let's talk about how you're going to be able to be successful. Let's talk about the choices you have to make and frame it in a different way. And I think those have been the helpful conversations. But I will also say I'm incredibly thankful of the teachers at a school. One of the last days at school this year for him, he came home and he said, he goes, we had a really healthy conversation about college today in our class. And the teacher just essentially said, ask me anything that you're afraid about in college or for college as you're starting to go into your senior year. And students were asking, questions that for him related more than any tour, any postcard, anything that we could have done on our side from a university. And I think he feels more comfortable about those experiences now. And so as we're heading into the senior year, we've got some tours planned. I think he's going to head towards a school in Kentucky is my guess. That's where he was born. And I imagine he's going to end up back in Kentucky somewhere. But it's an exciting process. But I kind of didn't take into consideration how intimidating. It would be for somebody that has parents and support in this way and understand the world so much. But for him, it's the first time going through it and it's still a lot to take in. Efrain: It's a lot. definitely is. The transition becomes a lot. think sometimes school made it look a little more difficult than what it was, to be quite frank. I go again from just my experience of doing it. And I did take some time off or whatnot. ⁓ I think on someone that their mom did not know financial aid, their mom wasn't going to share some information with a student like myself. How can we get that information, especially like, I don't know, it's probably way different when I went to school, but Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Efrain: I would have to sit in an office and just wait hours, ⁓ you know, also kind of work with my schedule. Sometimes I couldn't make it. So how are we conversating to those kids, you know, that maybe it is after five, those that do have questions that I was one that never raised my hand in class. If someone asks the question, that's how I was learning. I don't know just who I was. So what happened to that person? Are we in a better space that we can actually get that answer to them at a more convenient time? Kevin P. Thomas: I think we are. think campuses are doing a better job of being ready when students need us to be ready. ⁓ And I don't think it's just in campuses have moved to chat bots and AI systems and conversations in that way. But I really do think that there's a greater understanding of you are recruiting all types of students and all types of student readiness. And so I think that that is an important part of what we're doing in our work in higher education. But the other thing that I think Efrain: Mm-hmm. Kevin P. Thomas: happened and helps us in the conversation is that for the 16, 17, 18 year old that's sitting there, they're having trouble figuring out what is the value of education because they don't see themselves as part of that story. And so, at universities as a whole, I think we've had to become better storytellers of what can happen with the education, but I think that's also come from the outside with a lot of heat on the value of education. And so, being able to articulate good debt versus bad debt, programmatic success and what that's gonna mean academically for your future versus the eight to five, you can go get a job at Hardee's, your butt, and right at 18 years old be told you can make 50, $60,000 being an assistant manager or manager, but what's your quality of life? And be able to have some of those conversations that are... more real and more practical on what you're gonna be able to achieve with a degree versus without a degree. And so I think that we're doing a better job of meeting students where they're at than assuming that they need to meet us where we're at. And I think that's maybe the shift in higher education that has happened, especially over the last five to 10 years, is it is far less about here's who we are, look how great we are, come be a part of us. And I think it's really shifted to we want you. how can we help you get where you want to go and made it more individual and approach then we will make you part of us. There's some of that that comes right you go to a campus and on our campus we're the Bears and so like our president Houston Davis ends every conversation with go Bears right like there's an assimilation of like you're part of the bear family like I get all of that but there's also that part of like we want to be there for you and whatever that looks like versus you just being part of us. Efrain: Yeah. that and I think from the school perspective of the investment and this is what I've learned talking to individuals like you in this space is that people just think it's an education right but it's really everything else that comes with that like what you talked about that hardy's job if you were not performing you are going to be let go at a school level if you're not performing you have people that actually care that's going to try to put you back on track that is going to try to walk you through maybe this is not the degree like it's and I never realized it like this but Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Efrain: Both high school gives you the resources, those people that care for you, those cheerleaders, all that good stuff. Like you have so much assets there that sometimes are underutilized. And that's really in college. It's like, yeah, you're paying 15,000, one for the degree, but everything else that comes with that within the school. And I don't know, for me, I definitely didn't know. I went to like a community college at the time. So I don't know everything they had, but I wasn't there for that anyway. I was just there trying to get this degree whatnot. But I also would love to have found something where I can... go look at what was happening on the weekends and stuff because I was a single man. I could have probably, you know, been a part of these things, but I didn't know. I really did not know these things. So I love that we are in a space now, especially when we talk about Netflix being curated for us or Spotify being curated for us. How are we curating an experience for the next generation? Because everybody just wants it for them, right? It got to look good for them. Meeting them over there, which you mentioned. Kevin P. Thomas: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I really think that universities have got to get to that approach. And those that are struggling are not embracing that aspect of this. ⁓ And I think you're seeing some of that. You mentioned when you got to college, certain things felt easier. And I think that's the case with so many more students taking high school concurrent dual credit classes so that when they're coming in, they're not necessarily having to take the general education and the core courses that I struggled in. Like even my first semester of I was a music major and got a massive D in music appreciation and listen, my family was not pumped. Efrain: How Kevin, how? Kevin P. Thomas: listen, you gotta go to class, you gotta go to class. I did not go to a lot of it. But you know, I really struggled in that way. And so for students to get to more of the classes that motivate them, that empower them, you know, I think that helps in that journey too, because you're talking about, you know, the Netflix culture, the Amazon culture of things of like, I bought this and so now I need this, right? Like students don't necessarily look at it and say, well, in the general education course, I learned to read and write in this way. And so now I'm be ready to read. Efrain: Alright, bye. ⁓ Kevin P. Thomas: right at this level in my major, it's not necessarily how they think about that. So if there's things that they can move beyond and get quicker into those business classes or those ⁓ theater classes or the biology classes that they want to do for their majors, then they're more engaged in that process and really can find their path a little quicker. And I think that's what's been helpful too. I'm not a big proponent of like, we have, and I can remember this from my time at Western Kentucky, a student walked into orientation and they had 84 hours of college credit as an incoming freshman student, and I thought, ⁓ your college journey is gonna be different. Like, you're gonna be done. Like, you're gonna get to go make money, but is that necessarily what you're gonna get out of the whole college experience? so, because I do think you're right, there's an experience that comes with this too, and so getting some of those classes out of the way does that bypass the show that you don't want to watch on Netflix to the movie you really want to watch, ⁓ but you know, I think that there's something to be said for parts of that journey still being there for students so that they can learn and they can grow and they can network and they can connect because ⁓ there are going to be thousands of students that come out of college this year that graduate that have a psychology degree. What is the distinguishing factor about the education process? It is those networks, those connections, those ⁓ research opportunities, those practicums, those internships that you're going to do because you want to set yourself apart. You want to distinguish yourself from everybody. else that has the same degree that you have across the country and you do that through the experience and and I think college campuses are built better to do that today than we've been probably ever. Efrain: you I love that. What are some of the underrated programs or degrees that people are not tapping into that you think, Kevin, people should really be looking at, especially at your school? Kevin P. Thomas: ⁓ that's a great question. Efrain: I knew it was. I didn't want to say overrated because that was a bad question, but underrated. It's a good question. Kevin P. Thomas: No, you know, the thing I think that people think about, and this is an interesting thing, there are not a lot, and we see this on our end, and so maybe this is campus specific, but there are not a lot of freshmen or high school students that are starting this journey out that say, I wanna do business. And so that's really interesting to me. And so there's been some things we've done from a marketing standpoint to say, hey, business is for you, this and that. But what we do see is students get into college and then all of a sudden they decide fields of business, whether it's business administration, finance, account, like that they are for them, but they'll move within the college to that program. And so I think it's really interesting to me that like our business programs are this shift of timeframe of which you like kind of move into things a little later into your education process. So business would be in that conversation for me. ⁓ I would say some of the secondary health profession fields to me are probably in that underrated venue as well. And the reason why I say that is because when you talk to high school students, I would say if they're going into health field, half of them are saying, I want to be a nurse. not everybody's gonna be a nurse and not everybody should be a nurse. We've been to hospitals where like, how did you become a nurse? Like, not everybody should be. And so it's those secondary fields, whether that's healthcare administration or ⁓ nutrition or... ⁓ Efrain: Hahaha Kevin P. Thomas: family and consumer sciences. Like there are things in that field that I think can be psychology that can be really powerful that kind of fall under that, like not nursing, but still in the health field that I think often are underrated. Exercise science is in that a lot. And I think people that watch sports often look at that and say, every time I'm watching a game, everybody's, they're exercise science, they're exercise science. Exercise science is a really hard field. Like it is, it's a lot of science. And I think that that's one those underrated fields as well. Efrain: Okay, business administration, believe it or not, that's actually what I went to school for. Never would have thought, only because I was at Subway and someone says, Ephraim, you should take business administration. That's the only reason I even thought about that in college. I don't even know what I was going to college for, to be quite frank, Kevin. I just knew that I just wanted to do it because no one was doing it in my family. So I just always wanted to break that cycle. By the way, I'm not even finished with my AA degree. I got like two classes left, but I'm gonna do it, Kevin. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. You keep going. You let me know if I can help you. You know, the other thing, Evran, is that if you look at this, so many of the colleges were founded on teaching degrees. And I will say that that is becoming a field that I think is harder and harder to get people to say, I want to be a teacher. I want to go do middle grades or high school teaching. And so I think that's a missed opportunity of things, too. And I know teaching is a passion and a calling, but we talk about impacting lives. mean, think back to our own Efrain: Mm-hmm. Kevin P. Thomas: our own experience, there are those people along the way, those teachers that made an impact. And oftentimes I think that whenever you're considering a field, we think about the people that necessarily weren't the greatest to work with. I would just say flip that mindset to the person that that impacted your life. Like for me, I think about Mrs. Partington, my sixth grade teacher that had us do a project on the 1992 presidential election that to me instilled a pride and a love of learning in a way that I'd never had before. Mrs. Partington probably should have said, Kevin, you should be a teacher. And maybe I would have considered it, but like teachers are incredibly powerful in this conversation. And so to major in something in education is also one of those that I think is not done enough and I wish was done more. Efrain: Underrated. Yeah. Yeah, I think teachers and that job in general is very underrated job. I always think very underpaid, very just underappreciated because you are right. I was that student that was ⁓ just a knucklehead. I was causing trouble, but there was again back to the teachers that really seen something in me when they didn't have to, you know, and I've seen and I have a my facility about someone now that is kind of leaving the education field because how she feels about it and the parents and the kids and all those things. I'm like, you know, Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Efrain: That wasn't for her. Like people that do that job just have, it's not just a job, as you mentioned, right? It's fertilizing the future. It is passionate, it's being patient, it is purpose driven. I I've seen that in a lot of educators, but I have seen educators that probably just thought it was a job, you know, and they usually don't last too long, Kevin. ⁓ But I ask you, Kevin, as we start wrapping this up, people are wanting to know, I can imagine if you're watching this, what is on the wall behind you? You told me that you collect something. What are you collecting back there? Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so there's My walls have a lot of things on them and so there are various things, quotes from favorite TV shows, you know got the West Wing up there, I'm a big Minnesota Vikings fan and so I have some stuff up there but I collect lapel pins. of fact, got a couple, somebody ran by the other day, oh the chief of police here on campus brought one by because he gets them all the time so I always have lapel pins that are on there and so there's probably 12 banners up there and then there's a couple more that are surrounding me the office and it really started with my son and Efrain: I don't know. Love it. Kevin P. Thomas: I would do summer trips and as we were going to places, know... Hall of Fame, or Music Hall of Fame, and the NFL Hall of Fame, and Cooperstown, and Niagara Falls, and we're driving all over the country, and he's like, I wanna get something from each of these areas, and he was getting ⁓ lanyards that you kinda put around your neck, and will hang something on, and he's got those hanging in his room, and I was like, well, I wanna get something too, like I wanna remember this, and so I started with lapel pins, and ⁓ I have a ton of them, and I like going to Disney, so then I started getting pins from there. Efrain: Mm-hmm. Kevin P. Thomas: and now I probably have 700 or so lapel pins that are just around my office. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they bumped that price up. So it's like, ⁓ well, it used to be $10 and now it's 15. Thanks so much, Disney. Efrain: Especially at Disney. Especially if you go to Disney because there's so many of them over there. Do they still allow you to trade with cast members? That was always cool. Kevin P. Thomas: ⁓ yeah, yeah, they do the little trading thing. Yeah, and I have to be honest, I try to order some that I don't really want before then because all the pins I have I want. I don't want to get rid of those, you know? And so then I'll trade the ones I don't want and pick some out. But my son does that too. And because he's got, he doesn't have quite the 700, but he's probably got 50 to 100 pins as well because he's found some that he likes. Efrain: That is funny. ⁓ man, you know, I guess, I keep, which I have a collection of shot glasses. So normally people will bring me a shot glass from wherever and I don't even drink. So I have like 50, 60 shot glasses in a cupboard, but I like, I like the lapel pins, but then I'm thinking the shot glasses are probably cheaper, Kevin. So I'm gonna go with the shot glasses. Cause you know, I'm saving a little bit of money. You said $15. I don't know Kevin, not in this kind of environment we have going on. ⁓ Kevin P. Thomas: Right, there's a lot of money on there. And my thing was, because in higher education, I think often if you want to move up, you have to move out. And that's a bad thing to have to consider. But anytime you're going to pack up and have to move, I was like, you know what's easy to do? Lapel pins. Efrain: Yeah, I had some some universal ones. had some universal ones, I guess I wasn't prepared for it. That I had from when I used to work at Universal all these years ago. So ⁓ I actually try to put them on eBay or looked at eBay see what they were selling for. And believe it or not, sometimes man, you'll get the money back or even more because people are looking for that specific bin. Kevin P. Thomas: ⁓ yeah. Efrain: But Kevin, we're starting to wrap up here, man. And I want you to speak to those that are in the same field as you that may be a little nervous, have a little anxiety. We know what's happening right now at the level of the government where people are just kind of afraid of their jobs, afraid of what's happening, all these different things. How do we give them that empathy, allow them to know that they're not alone and that it's just, as we mentioned, it's just temporary? Any words of advice for those individuals? Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many things that are happening right now in education. one of the things, because I've taught a couple classes in advising and student success, and it's always fun to go back into the literature and look at various texts. And you'll read it. And it's like from 1940 and 1950 and 1970. And it's talking about education being at a crossroads. And really, it's a make or break time frame for education. And so I think that as we sit here and we feel like we're that meme where we're in the fire and the guy walks into the room and says, this is fine, or it's fine. ⁓ You know, it's one of those things that I think at this moment... ⁓ It feels like the heat is on, right? And it feels like every day is a little harder to work in education than the day before. I think that education has always been under fire. And so just realize that these are days that we'll get through and to lean on the people that are around you that are doing the good work, that are the good people that you're with. And if you don't have those people in your life, realize that there are networks that are out there. You know, I am a big believer of the social approach of education and on LinkedIn and through conferences and through institutes and through whatever connections you can get and I lean into those folks that are telling parts of the work that are being done that necessarily aren't necessarily on our campus and leaning into the works that was there. I think about ⁓ Beth Lesson that works at ⁓ Cal State Long Beach and Beth is a great higher education leader and she was she frequently talks about the mental health aspects of being a student success, a student advocate on a college campus. And Beth and I, until a few weeks ago, had never met. But the impact that she was having just by putting her voice out there was powerful to me in getting through some of the things that I'm needing to get through on a daily basis. Those voices are out there, whether they're on your campus or not. And so I would say embrace those people with the care, the hope, the belief that we can get through these difficult times. Because for the students that aren't campus, it's their time. And being their time, like they only get one chance at this. Be the student success champions for them. Be the champions for their academic success. Be the champions that will see them walk across the stage and earn that degree that is part of their dreams. Because we can get lost in the negative, but there's so much good that's happening on our campuses. There's so much good that's happening in the work that our teams, our faculty, our staff, our students are doing every day. And when we embrace that, we can be really powerful to the world that we're doing and the stories that that we have to tell about the success that's happening is just instrumental. Efrain: Kevin for president. love it. I love it. Kevin as we start to wrap up man, where can people find more information about Kevin? It looks like you are on LinkedIn. So can people follow you on LinkedIn, but also the socials for the school? Where can people find more information on the school? Are you guys on social? What's the website? Kevin P. Thomas: Let's go. Yeah, you can for sure find me on LinkedIn, ⁓ Kevin P. Thomas. ⁓ You can also find me and my good colleague Brody Brochiers on our podcast, The Pickup Meeting. We're recording later today. And so you can connect with us that way. then anything ⁓ for the University of Central Arkansas, check us out at uca.edu. ⁓ And our socials are listed there. And ⁓ I think we're doing some really great and powerful things here on our campus and trying to ensure that access and affordability is something that students can really take advantage of here on our campus. Efrain: real quick on the podcast. What can people look forward to if they tap into the podcast so they know. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah, so... Every episode is an adventure, just kind of like yours, I'm sure, right? Like every episode is a real journey. like we really do talk about advising, student success, value of education. But we also have people that come on. We've had athletic directors join the show and come on and talk about NIL and the new environment that is college athletics. And, you know, we're having somebody come on in a couple of weeks that's going to talk about the value of an online education and what that really means. And so it's all over the higher ed spectrum of faculty, staff, students, and the work that's being done. And ⁓ the pick-up meeting is not us trying to pick up dates, right? It goes back to that premise of, ⁓ know, sometimes you're wandering around, you go to get your coffee, you go to get your drink, you go to get stuff, and you see a colleague and all of sudden 30 minutes later you had yourself a pick-up meeting. That's what we're doing. It's a pick-up meeting, and so it's a fun conversation between two colleagues that bring on a guest and really just enjoy working in higher education. Efrain: Yeah. Love it. It's on YouTube, the Pickup Meeting. Kevin P. Thomas: It is on YouTube. if you ⁓ search the Pickup Meeting podcast, you will get there and on varying platforms, Spotify, YouTube, all of them. Efrain: Love it. Well, guys, if you guys are still watching, make sure that you guys do check out the pick up meeting. it or the pick up the pick up meeting on YouTube and all platforms you can get your podcasts on. Phenomenal conversation here with Kevin as we continue to learn more about the higher ed, because I always say that one story, one person and just that one moment change somebody's life. And I love that you've also gotten a storytelling aspect because people will learn by just conversations. So, Kevin, we thank you. My name is Efrain. We'll catch you guys the next one. Laters. Kevin P. Thomas: Yeah, the pick-up meeting. Thanks.