Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 171. Fundamental Footprints - A Personal Story under Bob Gray Sr - James Spurgeon Interview

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171. Fundamental Footprints - A Personal Story under Bob Gray Sr - James Spurgeon Interview · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:10
I found my freedom in you. I found a toy I can't lose, and
0:20
thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
0:24
and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me.
0:29
I found Welcome to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:35
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
0:38
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
0:42
Now here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin.
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Well, welcome back to the Four Freedom podcast.
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We're glad to be here with you today.
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We've got a lot planned for you today.
0:56
We've got some good stuff, some good material.
0:58
We've had a lot of good feedback from our last episode over the
1:03
past week. Lot of people reaching out, lot
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of people calling us wanting to just kind of dig in a little
1:10
deeper to this subject. And James, that's kind of what
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we've been dealing with over the past week, isn't it?
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Yeah, I would have never thought that doing an episode on Bob
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Gray, Senior Longview Baptist Temple, that this would have
1:25
been the response. And then we've been getting
1:27
phone calls from all over the world, social media messages.
1:31
It's been great. It's been great to hear from
1:33
people. It's been great to just see
1:35
where people are AT. And so we, we were pivoting our
1:39
schedule a little bit and our schedule is never permanent, but
1:42
we've got some an interview lined up today from the response
1:45
of this previous episode. If if you have a story, if
1:48
you've got something that you want to share a story that maybe
1:52
was predates the story or even after the time when we interview
1:57
with James and you'd like to share your experience, by by all
2:00
means, reach out to us. We'll try to get you on the
2:03
schedule and you can share your time and your story, what that
2:07
looks like. And but yeah, man, the Brett,
2:09
the, the firestorm that's coming from this is, has been great for
2:12
us. It's been great to to hear from
2:14
these things and to hear from you.
2:16
And we always appreciate that. We always appreciate you
2:19
reaching out to us and looking forward to today's interview.
2:23
Let's take care of some housekeeping issues, Brett.
2:26
What we got coming up in just, I mean, about a month we're about
2:28
to wait. One, one month away.
2:31
We are one month away from going to the Big D and I do mean
2:36
Dallas and we're we're going to go there to Dallas, TX to the
2:40
SBC conference and we're going to have a good time there.
2:46
We've already got some meet ups scheduled there.
2:48
If you're going to be in and around Dallas, TX between the
2:52
7th and 11th of next month in June and swing by the SBC
2:58
conference and see us, you know, even if you're not a southern
3:01
map, just I think they'll let you in.
3:02
I don't know, just, hey, just tell them at the door you're at
3:06
the Four Freedom Podcast, the VIP ticket.
3:09
They will roll the red carpet out for you, absolutely.
3:11
That's right. That's right.
3:12
But that's where we're going to be next month.
3:14
And like I said, we if you are going to be near, hit us up, let
3:20
us know messages on social media.
3:22
We'd love to meet you. Yeah, and I'll be there the week
3:24
before in McKinney. My sister lives in McKinney, so
3:27
we'll be hanging out with her. I've already got a couple of
3:30
events lined up to to show off the four Freedom cigars with the
3:35
at a lounge there in McKinney, but also just be able to hang
3:38
out. So if you want to meet up, if
3:40
you want to be there, maybe you can't be there the week of the
3:42
convention, but you can be there the week before and you're in
3:45
the air. You want to hang out, Shoot me a
3:46
message. Definitely will let you know
3:48
where I'll be at. And Brett, one cool thing.
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We're we're going to be touring the Dallas Cowboys stadium.
3:54
It's one of the best stadiums in America.
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And my sister, so she lives just an hour north of Dallas.
3:59
We can be at the stadium. And so I think it's that
4:02
Thursday that will be down there before the convention that we're
4:05
going to go down and behind the scenes tour, go in the locker
4:09
rooms, get to go on the field, get to go in the the crow's nest
4:13
way up top and and see the massive stadium.
4:16
So I'm super pumped about that for our family to be able to go
4:19
and do that. You know, I heard that the
4:21
weather that week is going to be like the Dallas Cowboys.
4:25
It's going to peak in the 90s. Amen.
4:27
Hey man, I can't wait to be awesome.
4:30
So specially Speaking of the four Freedom cigars, we are this
4:35
week, Lord willing, we will be rolling out our Sweet Elder
4:38
cigar. We've had some supply chain
4:40
issues, but we have finalized a cigar that we love, we enjoy.
4:46
And so Lord willing, the entire line of all four cigars will be
4:50
out. You can get a sampler pack, you
4:52
can get a single, you can get a 5 pack, and then our boxes of 20
4:55
will also be out there on our website.
4:57
Please go by. We've been getting some great
5:00
response from that. It's a small way for you to
5:02
support the show and support what we're doing and we're
5:05
excited about this little adventure that we've got.
5:08
We'll be taking this to G3 in September and been able to have
5:13
a booth set up there and talk through what we've got going on
5:16
and we're super excited about that.
5:17
Me and Brett Lord will and we'll both be there.
5:20
I know I'll be there. Brett trying to get his schedule
5:22
worked out. So another opportunity.
5:24
September 11th, 12th and 13th, to be able to be with us and
5:28
hang out and have a great time. And then, Brett, across the
5:31
seas, we will go tell us about Israel.
5:35
Shabbat Shalom. We are going to the Holy Land
5:38
for freedom in the Holy Land. We're heading out last of
5:42
January, 1st of February of next year, 2026, and we want you to
5:49
go with us. And I'm telling you, now is the
5:51
time to go. There are tour groups there.
5:54
It's safe. We've had talk from people that
5:57
are over there touring and listen it, it is the time to go
6:02
to Israel. And so we want you to go with
6:05
us. All you need to do is go to our
6:07
website our our trip website, which you can find on our social
6:11
media pages and put in your registration.
6:14
It's $450 for registration to guarantee your spot.
6:19
The cost for the trip overall all in is around $4500.
6:24
You pay that in payments over the next year and that really is
6:28
a good price. There are a lot more expensive
6:30
trips over there. And when I tell you this is, you
6:34
know, that that guy in Jurassic Park that said, you know, we
6:37
spared no expense. That's what this company does.
6:40
This company spares no expense when they take care of you.
6:44
It is a first class trip from beginning to end and you're
6:48
never going to regret going. Absolutely can't wait.
6:51
It's going to be an awesome time.
6:53
You can also find that information out on our website
6:55
at for freedompodcast.com. You can go and check that out
6:59
there on the Israel 2026 tab. We would love for you to join
7:03
us. And without further ado, we are
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excited about jumping into this interview today with Mr. James
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Spurgeon and I believe he'll have some enlightening
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information for you. If you've ever been a part of
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the independent fundamental Baptist movement or have you
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ever just wanted to know more about Bob Gray and Longview
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Baptist Temple. And so let us jump into our
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episode today. Welcome Today we are excited to
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have James Spurgeon with us here today.
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James is an alumni of Bob Gray in Longview and Texas Baptist
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Institute there, but hecks back Temple and he also wrote a book
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called the Texas Baptist Crucible.
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And so he's going to be sharing his story today.
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I want to share the the Backpage of his book.
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You can find it on Amazon. We'll put the link in there as
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well. But he wants to share his story
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today and where he's been at. But this is the Backpage that
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says that it's a true story of one young man's experience and
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fundamentalist churches and Baptist Bible colleges in the
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80s and early 90s as he was been trained for ministry.
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Enter a bizarre world that is often dark, sometimes funny, but
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always entertaining. It'll keep you turning pages
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until the very end. He describes the totalitarianism
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state in which he lived, they've served rules by which he lived,
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and the unreasonable, chaotic cast of characters who ruled
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over him. And he does so with candor and
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humor. At the same time, he exposes
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what it what was and is wrong with the particular band band
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brand of independent Baptist fundamentalism that he lived
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through and came out of by simply making a record of his
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own experience. If you've ever been hurt or
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abused in church or abusive ministers in cult like settings,
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you will be encouraged by this book.
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And my favorite part of the whole back is the keynote, he
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says. If you've read 1984, I lived it.
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Only this story, by God's grace, doesn't end with my loving Big
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Brother. In this story, Big Brother
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doesn't have the last word. So, James, welcome to the show.
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Why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself, your
9:04
background, where you're from, and what you're doing now?
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So I well, I'm I'm a Hospice chaplain full time.
9:13
I am by vocational minister. So I'm I'm pastor of.
9:18
And a little place called Winnsboro Reformed Church in
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Winnsboro, TX yeah I preach to 30 or 40 people there every
9:26
week. I re preach all my sermons in
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nursing homes and assisted living during the week and I I
9:32
tell people that I have the greatest job in the world.
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I love where God has me. I wouldn't want to be anywhere
9:38
else. And through all of the the
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bizarre twists and turns that God and his Providence put me
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through, I am exactly where he wants me to be.
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But part of that, I think, is to help and encourage others who
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are hurt by, you know, the type of fundamentalist ministry that
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I came up through. I was born in Indiana, had lived
10:05
in Colorado and California by the time I was 2.
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My parents then. I got.
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Saved in the in the Bellflower Missionary Baptist Church,
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Bellflower, CA when I was 10 in 1979.
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Some people that lived up the street from us were they were
10:22
originally from Arkansas and so they went to it was an ABA
10:26
church. I don't know if you're familiar
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with the American Baptist Association.
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That's where I got. Saved and baptized.
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And then my family moved to West Tennessee and we went to a in a
10:38
another ABA church in Bolivar, TN until I was probably 17.
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And then through the influence of my aunt, my dad's sister, he
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started receiving the sort of the Lord newspaper.
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And he got all fired up about, you know, these people were out
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there doing things, doing something for God.
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Our little church wasn't doing anything for God.
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And so we wound up changing churches and going to a little
11:07
independent Baptist Church in Jackson, TN, pastored by a very
11:12
young Tennessee Temple graduate. And they had a Christian School
11:18
and they had a bus ministry and they had all the standards.
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So I didn't, I wasn't really into that.
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You know, I was, I was a teenager in the 80s.
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I had long hair. I had, you know, all the.
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Went to public high school and it was funny because when we
11:38
started going to that church and I was known as a nerdy goody 2
11:42
shoes kid at public high school, I was immediately a rebel when I
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walked through the doors of the Independent Baptist Church and
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what was. Funny is that that made me
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attractive to every teenager there.
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They just wanted like, wow, somebody from the outside world
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is here. I look back at that and laugh.
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But that's how I got kind of got into.
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Fundamentalism. Independent.
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Fundamental Baptist. Love it.
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Now I'm sure some of our listeners are asking the
12:11
question, are you the great, great grandson of Charles Haddon
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Spurgeon? Your last name is Spurgeon and
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that you are reforms. We know Spurgeon was reformed.
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Is is this part of the culture that you're in, or do you know
12:23
that? Well, I'm not directly related
12:26
to him. I tell people that I'm from the
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other side of the family, the other Spurgeon's.
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I'm descended from Spurgeon's who came out of North Georgia
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and East Tennessee, who are basically hillbillies.
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And but I, I became aware after I left fundamentalism of of
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Charles Spurgeon, read a ton of his stuff.
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I love. I refer to him as Uncle Chuck.
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I don't think he would have liked that.
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But people ask me about him. I say, oh, I love Uncle Chuck.
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But no, I'm not directly. Related.
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James, I hate you because you stole my jokes because I
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literally, I literally have written down on my post it note
13:09
Uncle Charles about asking about Uncle Charles and beat me to it.
13:15
Let me say though, that I have a lot of respect for Hospice
13:19
chaplains. It it's a, it's a calling and it
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is a wonderful ministry. I mean, you get to just go
13:26
around ministering to people. And so I, I love that.
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I want to also say that my pastor was from Tennessee
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Temple, graduated Tennessee Temple on under Lee Robertson as
13:38
well. But you know, you, you kind of
13:40
told us about how you kind of first dip your toe into, you
13:44
know, the IFB movement. I, I want to talk about your
13:48
time in the IFB. What, what, what when you got in
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there, what initially attracted you to it?
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What, what, what kind of made you says OK, man, this is
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awesome. Let's, let's, let's, let's,
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let's get involved in this thing.
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What attracted you to the whole movement?
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So a lot of pressure was put on me to finish high school at the
14:08
Christian School and I only had one year high school left.
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I didn't want to do it. They were not accredited.
14:15
It was an AC school and I find what happened was we had a
14:23
revival and with our preacher, I announced it for months ahead of
14:29
time. We're having Joe Boyd and it had
14:31
a bunch of red hot on fire for God preacher boys.
14:35
We're going to be coming through and of course our our family
14:40
hosted 2 of them for the week that he was there preaching.
14:44
I don't know how familiar familiar you are with Joe Boyd
14:48
and all that. I wound up, I was called to
14:51
preach under Joe Boyd ministry. I to this day, I believe that
14:56
call is the most genuine thing that's ever happened to me.
15:00
I knew that God was calling me to preach.
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I went up to Joe Boyd one night and this is after I had been
15:08
talked into going with them as a Joe Boyd preacher boy like that
15:13
week. I didn't know until later that
15:15
those guys got like bonus tuition money for recruiting me.
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You know, I just thought, man, they want me to go, I'm going to
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go like, and I just, I just bought in because I sincerely, I
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love God, I love the scriptures. I've never, I never thought of
15:33
myself as a rebel quote, UN quote rebel.
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And I, I felt like this was God's calling on my life.
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I asked, I went up to Joe Boyd one night and said, how does
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somebody know if they're called to preach?
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And he said, well, well, Jim, do you sing?
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Do you sing specials in church? No, Sir, I don't.
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Well, he ain't calling you to sing then, is he?
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And that was basic. OK, I said, well, I guess I'm
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giving my life to. Be, you know, surrendering to
16:04
preach as as it was known. And so that was my my calling
16:11
and entrance into ministry. I became a Joe Boyd preacher
16:15
boy. That was between my junior and
16:18
senior year of high school. And so obviously then it was
16:22
decided I was going to Christian School and that I was going to a
16:26
a fundamentalist Bible college before then because they're the
16:30
only ones doing anything for God.
16:32
Amen. So I mean, before then I would
16:35
have probably wound up somewhere like Memphis State University,
16:39
maybe Mississippi State, somewhere like that, might have
16:43
gone local, but excellent Southern Baptist school in
16:48
Jackson, TN, that I look back and think, why didn't I just go
16:52
there, you know, and stay home. But God, God, God knows better
16:58
than we do. And so I I finished out my
17:03
senior year of high school at the at the Bethel Christian
17:06
Academy. Jackson, TN is no longer there.
17:09
The church is no longer there and wound up at Texas Baptist
17:16
College in Longview, TX because Bob Gray came through his again
17:20
the influence of that young pastor from Tennessee Temple
17:25
University and I love the guy. Brother Tim is a great guy,
17:29
still is. Still would tell you he's a
17:31
fundamentalist and he's it's people like him.
17:34
Why I I don't broad brush the whole movement as cultic, but I
17:40
do kind of view it as fringe Christianity.
17:44
Does that make sense? Yes, Sir, absolutely.
17:47
Yeah, but that's how I I wound up after I graduated high
17:51
school. I graduated of one.
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I was the only one that had a whole ceremony for me.
17:57
I tell people I I have a a high school reunion every year and
18:02
everybody. Knows.
18:03
You're valedictorian and class president and all of it all
18:06
rapid. Yes, captain of the basketball
18:08
team. I was everything.
18:10
I love it. That's yeah.
18:13
So so. I'm not familiar with Joe Boyd,
18:16
right. I, I've never heard that name
18:18
actually. I think Brett, maybe so.
18:22
Joe Joe Boyd I I heard Joe Boyd preach probably more than
18:26
anybody else because Wendell Evans loved Joe Boyd and Wendell
18:31
Evans would say I've got 3 heroes in my life and he was
18:35
listened off. I think Jack Howles was one, I
18:38
forget who the second one was, but then the third one was Joe
18:41
Boyd and man, I heard Joe Boyd preach a lot.
18:46
He would always come, he would talk to the preacher boys.
18:49
I So yes, I know Joe Boyd a lot and he was he was a card.
18:53
He was a cut up. He was hilarious and and he was
18:58
he was he, he I, I really liked. Him.
19:01
Yeah, I'll, I'll say this for him.
19:02
He was not mean. I run across a lot of meanness
19:07
in fundamentalism, but he was not mean.
19:10
He could be blunt sometimes, but he, I, I feel like he really, he
19:15
loved people. And that was rare.
19:18
Absolutely. I I I can see that.
19:20
Yeah. Well, so you, you, we got to
19:22
this point where you went to Longview, you went to Texas
19:25
Bible Institute, Texas Bible Baptist College and you were
19:29
able to be there under Bob Gray and under the training.
19:33
And this is sort of where our path sort of aligned because,
19:37
you know, me and Brett, we're not as familiar with Bob Grab
19:39
got a couple of connections that came from Bob Gray to Champion
19:43
where I went to college. Yet you reach out to us and you
19:46
said, hey, I've, I've, I've been a part of it.
19:48
I've wrote a book. I'd like to, you know, possibly
19:51
share some story. And so we brought this into, you
19:54
know, we've had tons of response from this Bob Graham so that we
19:58
came out with missionaries from all across the world really have
20:02
reached out to me and messaged us.
20:04
And I've been getting messages on social media and and Facebook
20:08
and one guy got my phone number and called me and I got a phone
20:12
call from the other side of the world.
20:14
I'm not going to mention where but.
20:15
And and so we talked for a little while and so we felt it
20:18
was important to maybe sort of we were going to go ahead and.
20:22
Push through and talk about a couple other issues.
20:24
But because this issue came up and we didn't realize it was
20:27
going to 'cause, you know, sort of a firestorm of, of social
20:30
media of people talking about this, we thought maybe let's,
20:33
let's pause for a moment. Let's take some interviews and
20:36
talk through some, some personal stories, some personal
20:38
attributes of what had happened. And so why don't you just
20:41
describe your experience at Longview under Bob Gray and sort
20:46
of the experience at Longview Baptist, the the the culture
20:50
that you were in the leadership style.
20:51
And on the back of the book, he said that totalitarian
20:53
leadership. And then how the environment
20:56
sort of shaped your view of ministry and what that looks
20:59
like? So I got, I, I was able to ease
21:03
into Longview Baptist Temple and, and Texas Baptist College
21:07
because my, my parents moved with me to Longview and my dad
21:15
enrolled in the college the same time I did.
21:18
And the first year he took mostly like night courses.
21:22
And so I was there during the day.
21:24
I was working all night at a grocery store, warehouse grocery
21:28
store. He was working during the day.
21:30
We didn't, we didn't take a lot of the same classes, but we took
21:34
a few of the same class. He graduated and left and that's
21:39
when I went into the dorms and. That's when I really got exposed
21:46
to it. I saw, I saw a lot of it while I
21:48
was living in with my parents in going to school.
21:51
But when I moved into the dorm is when it was just, it's like
21:56
if you've ever been in a jail, I used to preach in a jail every
21:58
Friday and the door closes behind you and you know you're
22:01
there, right? And that's what it felt like
22:04
moving into the dorms. It takes a Baptist college
22:07
because. It it was.
22:10
Every aspect of your life was control, and you were taught to
22:14
be open to leadership about everything.
22:18
What are you hiding? If you're trying to hide
22:20
something, you must have sin. And anything you did that was a
22:24
little bit different was like, must be sin in your life.
22:27
It was a It's bizarre. As I mentioned.
22:30
To you or as I before we started recording.
22:33
I've been out of this so long. In fact, I wrote my book in
22:37
between 99 and 2004, when all these memories were still fresh.
22:43
I've decided to republish it and I went back and as I'm editing
22:47
it, I'm I'm beginning chapters. That I can't remember how they
22:51
end. And I got sucked in and it was
22:53
like, wow, this is an emotional roller coaster for me.
22:57
Just reading the book again and editing in it, getting it ready
23:01
for publication. So that's that place is
23:06
different for people who don't know fundamentalism.
23:10
The stories are hard to believe. A couple of people from my
23:14
church have read the book and they're like, man.
23:17
You got to be making this stuff up.
23:20
And I'm like, I promise you, I'm not.
23:23
This is the way it was. This is the way it still is, I'm
23:26
sure. In some places I I've rambled.
23:30
I can't remember your question now.
23:32
No, you're good. What?
23:33
So tell us about the, the specifics of the church culture,
23:37
the leadership style, the the experience that you had while
23:41
you're there. I know that was oppressive as
23:42
far as the the dormitory in the in the college, but what was it
23:46
like specifically being under Bob Gray and working with him
23:51
and doing things around him? Bob Gray is the king.
23:55
Or was He's no longer there. Bob Gray was the king.
23:59
What he said ruled you did not question him.
24:04
No one who worked for him questioned him.
24:07
He's surrounded by yes men. He told us that when you go to
24:13
hire people, staff, that the number one thing that he looks
24:16
for is loyalty. That's it.
24:20
He doesn't look for soul winners.
24:21
He doesn't look for all these other things.
24:23
Loyalty, He said you can you find somebody loyal, you can
24:27
mold them into what you want them to be.
24:30
And that's what he looked for. He looked for people he could
24:33
rule, people he could control and the church membership.
24:37
So I can't remember what they what they claimed as numbers
24:41
because they, you know how the numbers go.
24:44
I think in reality there were probably 800 to 1000 members.
24:50
And I would guess that of those, maybe 20 to 30 at the most were
24:57
actually from Longview. All the rest had moved there
25:02
from out of state to be a part of that great soul winning
25:06
church. So the church really was
25:10
promoted by his Monday, Tuesday preaching around the country and
25:14
and the college getting people to move to the church, come to
25:17
the college. People would come to the college
25:20
and just roll out and just stay at the church and be members of
25:23
the church forever. And so the church.
25:26
Wasn't even really from Longview.
25:29
People in Longview looked at it like it was a bizarre place.
25:33
I remember I first got it. I first got hired at the grocery
25:37
store. I'm 18.
25:38
I don't know anything. And one of the guys who worked
25:40
with me says you're from that church.
25:43
That that made is the reason why we don't have MTV on cable.
25:50
They blamed the church for that for, like, because they rallied
25:53
against having MTV on the cable or whatever it was.
25:58
People in the community look at it like it's a cult.
26:01
There's like rumors that go around about it.
26:04
Is it true They lock the doors once the service starts and they
26:07
have all these these things that go around?
26:10
It's pretty funny. But yeah, but the church is like
26:14
a foreign entity in Longview. Those people aren't from
26:18
Longview. Wow, that's an interesting
26:20
thought. You know, I, I had similar to
26:22
that when I was a gospel acting champion because a lot of it
26:26
was, you know, transplant people that came in and, you know, Eric
26:30
was from the area, but there was some changes.
26:32
There were some things that were different and people from the
26:35
community saw this church that was there, but wasn't really
26:38
there for the community. And now the culture has changed
26:42
a lot since then and they've done things that I believe have
26:44
been good, but there is still that, that, that, that
26:49
environment that sometimes can breed that.
26:51
And I want to ask you just follow up with that of how do
26:55
you think the environment of Longview and Bob Gray, how did
26:58
that shape your view of ministry in the gospel when you initially
27:01
left and you know, you're called to be a pastor, I'm assuming you
27:05
went and you pastored or started a church after you had
27:08
graduated. And So what, what did you take
27:11
away from Longview that that stuck with you in ministry until
27:16
eventually we'll talk about you leaving the ministry, leaving
27:19
the IFB movement and how that changed.
27:21
So, So what the initial part? How?
27:23
How did that? How did that influence you?
27:25
So I was run out. I was eventually left on bad
27:30
term. I'd left, and as far as they
27:33
were concerned, I was leaving God forever.
27:35
But I left when I left Longview Baptist Temple.
27:38
I left Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement.
27:41
I knew I was whatever I was going to be.
27:43
It was not that. And it put me in a place to
27:46
question everything. Where I wound up was a was a
27:49
little Baptist Church maybe about an hour away from Longview
27:53
in Mineola, TX. And there were gracious people
27:57
there. And there they were.
28:00
I'm sure they looked at me as odd.
28:02
I showed up for church the first time in a suit and tie and
28:04
nobody there had a suit and tie on.
28:07
I was a fish out of water for a long time there.
28:09
But the pastor was very gracious.
28:11
The pastor hired me to do Spanish ministry at his church,
28:16
sent me to Costa Rica to learn Spanish.
28:19
I came back and started preaching in Spanish and I still
28:22
had a lot of fundamentalism in me.
28:24
But. Honestly, it was like I that's
28:28
where things began to come off of me.
28:30
I because I was willing to question everything.
28:34
So I remember coming back from having learned Spanish and
28:40
picking up Dennis. Quarles book on King James
28:42
Onlyism in reading it and thinking this guy doesn't have
28:48
he doesn't even understand how languages work.
28:51
It was just like, this is ridiculous and.
28:55
So I was like that dropped off. There were there were other
29:00
things that just came off a little bit at a time.
29:03
I remember the first time I bought a Bible that was not King
29:07
James. I sneaked into the.
29:11
Into the Bible Bookstore in in Tyler, TX.
29:14
You know, looking around like I was about to sneaking into a
29:17
liquor store and I went in there and got I, I.
29:22
I had done research. I got a new American standard
29:26
and big black leather new American standard.
29:29
The church that I was at was still kind of King James only,
29:32
not rabid King James only, but kind of King James only.
29:37
So in my office I had a desk drawer, the the middle drawer
29:40
that you pull out, it's got pins and stuff in it.
29:43
And I had that Bible opened up in that drawer.
29:46
And so I would just read it. I would sit there with the
29:49
drawer open and read. I read the entire new American
29:52
standard. And if anybody walked into the
29:54
office, I would just push the door or the push the, yeah, the
29:58
door closed to the to my desk, push the Bible back up under my
30:02
desk, you know, talk to whatever.
30:04
When they left, I pull it back out.
30:05
They're like, it's just hilarious to me that I was
30:09
sneaking to read the Bible. That's hilarious.
30:13
Well, let me ask you, what was, what was like the straw that
30:17
broke the camel's back? What was the thing that's like,
30:20
OK, this happened, I'm out, I'm gone.
30:23
And then once you left. What was the?
30:25
Hardest part of leaving? So the, I guess the the straw
30:29
that broke the camel's back for me was the control.
30:34
It just became ridiculous to me that at the age of 25, they
30:38
wanted to completely control my finances.
30:41
They wanted to. They could tell me.
30:45
Whether I could date or not or who I could or couldn't date.
30:50
And it just struck me one day how ridiculous that was that
30:54
anybody would even want to have that much control over someone
30:58
else's life. And that's when I knew I was
31:01
going to leave. And that was within a few months
31:03
of actually leaving. I mean, I, I relate the events
31:06
in the book of what caused me to actually walk out for the last
31:09
time. I realized that whenever he
31:12
preached to people that he didn't know what he was talking
31:16
about, half the time he was just making it up.
31:20
He was the whole thing was manipulation.
31:23
These, there was never a, I don't think there was ever a
31:26
moment when that was it. It was just like, I'm sure there
31:30
was the straw that broke the camel's back was the control
31:33
issue, but it was a lot of things just piled up and when I
31:38
left, I was done with them. But I'm sure that even today, I,
31:42
some of my behavior is a reflection of how I was molded
31:47
there. Like I won't go to a conference.
31:51
I have nothing against conferences.
31:53
I hope people go to them and, and get good out of them and
31:57
enjoy themselves. Fellowship, everything else.
32:00
I ain't interested. I've had I, I, I don't even care
32:04
about a big name preacher of any kind, even, you know, like when
32:09
I started running in the more reformed Calvinist circles and
32:12
they're like, oh, RC scroll James White and all this and I'm
32:16
like, OK, well, you have fun. I don't care because I'm, I'm
32:21
just, I'm kind of burnt out on that, you know?
32:25
Yeah. The exactly.
32:27
It, it's definitely the the pandemic epidemic of that world
32:31
is how big can your name be? How many people can you affect?
32:36
And it's a hard part to to swallow when we begin thinking
32:40
through that as as older ministry.
32:42
Let me say that from me going to House Anderson, I feel you on
32:47
the control. Just like every, I mean, I've
32:50
said several times that going to that college was like, I mean,
32:55
they didn't treat you like an adult.
32:56
They treat you like a 12 year old at summer camp and control
33:01
every move. The the, the girls, they can't
33:05
leave the property unless there's three of them and you
33:09
know, you have to sign all these papers and, and all this stuff.
33:12
So I definitely feel you on the control aspect.
33:16
Yes, and, and to be honest with you, the whole place was fake.
33:20
It just took me a long time to figure that out.
33:23
The whole thing was a charade and you know when I went through
33:28
their. Master's program.
33:30
Is he's telling us stuff. I'm realizing more and more how
33:35
fake everything is. Like he's, he's big on, you
33:40
know, like that parking lot attendants, there's a way that
33:43
they park the cars, they park every other space, starting at
33:47
the road, working their way in and then go back to the road and
33:50
fill in those spaces. And the stated reason for that
33:54
is so that people driving by will think the parking lot is
33:57
full. No, IT projects an image.
34:01
There was never to be an empty seat in the choir behind him
34:04
because didn't want people sitting there looking up and
34:08
seeing empty seats. It was projecting an image.
34:12
Everything was projecting an image.
34:15
It was just stuff like that that I was I, I would think, man,
34:20
this is so fake. Well, I've never heard of the
34:24
every other Rd. parking. I think that is, wow, I'm blown
34:28
away right now that that was the reason behind it.
34:31
And you know, I've always, you know, I've noticed that, you
34:35
know, you got to have a big choir that they model that after
34:38
Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley.
34:40
You know, the choir stays up there so that there's this big
34:42
audience behind him. And I hate when people are
34:46
behind me like that when I'm preaching, I'm like, get get
34:48
down, get get out there with your families.
34:50
What are you doing sitting back here?
34:51
Yeah. So not only are they behind him
34:54
to so it looks full, but they are trained in how to respond to
34:59
the message. The entire church is trained in
35:02
how to respond to the message. But especially if you're sitting
35:05
up on the platform, you are to say Amen.
35:07
You are to be looking and nodding.
35:09
I mean, these are things that were explicitly stated that we
35:12
were to be doing because we. Are projecting.
35:18
That we are for everything that he's saying.
35:22
So it makes it a more powerful presentation, yeah.
35:26
Before we get our last two questions that we're going to
35:29
ask today and wrap this up, I do have one question because this
35:33
question or this thought gets brought up a lot and I want to
35:36
get your thoughts on it. When you left Longview, again,
35:40
your entire culture was wrapped up in Joe Joe Boyd, I think he
35:45
said his name was the Tennessee Temple grad Tom Bob Gray, 25
35:51
years old. You go to this church, you've
35:54
now left everything that you've known for pretty much your
35:57
entire adult life, your friends, your family.
36:00
I don't know where your family stood when you left.
36:03
Did it feel like or did you have this sense that you were on an
36:08
island by yourself? And if you did sort of talk into
36:11
that a little bit because I felt like that out of Brett said he's
36:14
felt like that. And others have said, you know,
36:17
I have this island feeling that there was no one else out there
36:20
for me because I've left. Everything is a hard pill to
36:24
swallow. So I had the support of my
36:27
parents when I left, they had they had left before I did and
36:31
they were doing, they were on a Navajo mission work in New
36:37
Mexico. And so they my dad supported me.
36:41
Through some of the roughest. Times when he was away and I was
36:44
still there. So when I left, I I still had
36:49
them and they eventually through my influence, they left the IFP
36:54
movement also. But it took, I think it took
36:57
seeing what happened to me to open my dad's.
37:01
Eyes a little bit to you know, this is this is not right.
37:05
This is not the right way to treat people.
37:08
This is not the love of Christ. And so, and when I left, I
37:13
immediately found a church because like I said, I knew.
37:16
I knew ordinary life before the IFP movement.
37:21
And so I found a church and I still have a lot of baggage, but
37:24
they were a gracious church and they helped me.
37:26
Through a lot of that. And so I was blessed in that
37:31
way. And, and it's funny because I, I
37:35
love those people and I love that church.
37:37
I wouldn't go there now, but that was exactly the church God
37:40
wanted me to be in because that's, that's where he is.
37:45
He and his grace was helping me through these issues and through
37:50
that largely through that church.
37:52
And so, yeah. And so it was about five years
37:55
after I left before that I discovered the Unofficial Jack
38:00
Isles web page and an unmoderated forum called the
38:05
Fighting Fundamentalist Forum 1999 before social media.
38:11
And you could just be anonymously post and argue.
38:14
And I was cage stage anti fundamentalist by that time and
38:20
just rolled into that and spent hours arguing online.
38:25
And that's where I eventually started writing my book.
38:29
Wow, you know, the fighting fundamentals, it's been years
38:31
since I thought about that. I, I spent just a couple, you
38:34
know, when I got into college, it was O 7 when I got the
38:38
champion. So, you know, the social media
38:40
was rolling out and the fighting fundamentals forum had began to
38:44
make its way off the scene. But I remember going on and
38:47
typing in a person and then these threads of just comments
38:51
after comments and I'm like, what, what is this Like?
38:54
I don't even I was so foreign to me, but because I was in the
38:57
IFP, but I wasn't in the the house Bob Gray movement of the
39:02
IFP, It was very happy light. We have the standards and we
39:05
have the the the strictness and the the over overarching
39:10
control. But it wasn't near what you've
39:14
experienced and what Brett experienced.
39:16
So I was just so foreign to it and I'm like scratching my head
39:20
a little bit, like, what is this?
39:23
Yeah. So last two questions we want to
39:25
ask. I'll ask the first one, Brett.
39:26
You can follow up with the last one.
39:28
Then we'll leave it open to you to say whatever you want.
39:30
James, what would you say to someone who is starting to
39:33
question their IFB church bringing?
39:36
What would you say to someone that is starting to you
39:40
mentioned that questioning that, that moment of, of, you know,
39:43
what is this? And So what would you begin to
39:46
say to someone that is questioning that?
39:48
And then and I'll, I'll have Bret ask the second question.
39:53
So I would say first of all, that if you are in any
39:56
situation, church or otherwise, where the leadership tells you
40:02
that you are not allowed to question them.
40:04
I mean, with the exception of the military, I guess.
40:08
But it's if you're in a church where the leadership tells you,
40:12
you don't question me, get out, because that's not biblical
40:15
Christianity. We're to use discernment.
40:19
There's no one above reproach. There's no one above rebuke.
40:23
You read in the book of Galatians that Paul says that he
40:28
withstood Peter to his face because he was to be blamed.
40:32
And I don't think that that's quite as bombastic or that
40:35
happened in quite as bombastic a way as when I initially read it,
40:39
you know, but I, I do think that if, if Peter can be rebuked,
40:47
then anybody can be rebuked. So leadership, if you're in a
40:52
church with leadership like that, get out.
40:55
And, and I know that they, that type of leadership programs you
40:57
to say, if you leave me, you're leaving God.
41:00
And I'm here as a witness to tell you, no, you're not.
41:03
You go find grace and find Christ ministered by a gracious
41:08
church. And I wouldn't even begin to
41:10
tell you which church to go to. Find one that's local, where the
41:14
people are friendly and gracious.
41:17
And they won't understand you because they won't.
41:19
They will find it hard to believe that any church was like
41:22
the one you're in. But they'll be kind to you and,
41:28
and they'll be patient with you and you may have a whole lot of
41:33
things to work through to, to try to understand.
41:38
And that's OK. Take it slow, but don't don't
41:42
forsake Christ in His body because they are there for you
41:48
to help you. Amen.
41:51
Well, you, you kind of answered my last question, which was what
41:54
advice would you give to those who are looking for a healthy
41:57
church after leaving the ISB? You know, if you'd like to
42:01
speaking any more into that, you can.
42:03
And then after that, we're just going to kind of leave things
42:06
open for you. Is there just anything else you
42:07
wanted to wanted to have said? Yeah, just like I said, find
42:14
that gracious and loving congregation and they are out
42:18
there. We were told when I was in the
42:21
IFB that we were the only ones and that is such a lie.
42:24
Such a lie. God uses people from across the
42:29
denominational spectrum. Well, you're looking at a guy
42:32
who has hardcore opinions on theology.
42:35
OK, and I'm here to tell you just find a church where Christ
42:38
is preached and people will love you and don't feel like you have
42:44
to be involved. You don't be.
42:46
There's nothing wrong with a leading an ordinary Christian
42:51
life. 99% of everything God has done through his church has been
42:56
through ordinary means. Just people loving each other,
43:00
loving the people in the community, speaking about their
43:04
faith, doing good, being gracious.
43:09
Just find a place like that and I promise you they're not hard
43:12
to find. May not be the first one you
43:14
walk into. Everyone.
43:16
I joke that Baptist Church planning one O 1 is they got mad
43:21
about the carpet in the foyer and went down the road and
43:23
started another church. That happens.
43:26
But for the most part, it shouldn't be hard to find the
43:29
congregation of people who will love you.
43:32
And it's OK to go to a different church.
43:35
Just yeah, go. Go and question.
43:40
Ask the pastor questions. If you can't answer them, or
43:43
doesn't want to answer them, or tells you shouldn't ask, go to
43:46
the next place, but find you a preacher.
43:51
Not a man of. God, a preacher, a pastor, a
43:56
shepherd, who will shepherd you? Yeah, that's so great.
44:00
I was this past week, I preached on Paul's conversion of Acts 9
44:04
and I, you know, I, I brought the analogy of Ananias and
44:08
Barnabas. Ananias was just an ordinary man
44:11
serving there in Damascus and God told him to go.
44:15
He didn't go. He didn't find Peter.
44:18
He didn't find the the apostles that were in Jerusalem.
44:21
He found an ordinary man who loved Jesus, who loved the
44:24
church and said go to this man who needs to be heard.
44:28
And then Barnabas, another man who was just an ordinary person
44:31
who who just so happened to be the son of encouragement that
44:35
name there. And I said, maybe you're an
44:37
anniacin here that needs to be someone who just needs to listen
44:41
to the Lord or maybe you're hearing your Barnabas that needs
44:43
to go and encourage someone. He's called ordinary people.
44:46
He's not calling be this this famous person.
44:51
He just want an ordinary Christians and step out my faith
44:54
and trust him in our everyday life.
44:57
Amen. Amen.
45:00
Any closing final thoughts from you my friend?
45:02
I had one and it slipped away just a second ago as I was
45:05
listening to you. I have that problem all the
45:09
time. Yeah, it slipped.
45:11
You may want to like edit a little bit right in here.
45:16
Yeah, I I can't find it now. Perfect.
45:18
Well, but James, thank you so much for coming on.
45:21
You've been encouragement to me. You've been encouragement to, I
45:23
know our listeners as they listen to this and looking
45:26
forward to cracking up in that book when it gets here and
45:29
looking forward to enjoying hearing some more of your story.
45:32
And so I can't wait to to do that.
45:35
OK, let me let me let me if I can plug one more time the book
45:40
and and let you know or let your audience know people who are
45:44
never grew up ISB who read the book.
45:46
Tell me man, that was the funniest thing I've ever read.
45:49
And so I know that's easy for me to say because I'm obviously
45:54
think that it's a good book and I'm funny, but that's what I've
45:57
been told. So give it a.
45:59
Shot. And I, I think it'll be a
46:02
blessing to you. Great.
46:04
Well, I can't wait and until next time to God.
46:08
Not the pastor. Be the glory.
46:11
Amen. Found my new name, Found that
46:16
good grace, found that healing. And the tears fell down my face
46:21
when I found my beginning. It has no ending.
46:23
I found that second chance. Found my best friend, Found my
46:26
forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since I
46:28
found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
46:46
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
46:49
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
46:52
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
46:56
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.