Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1126: Building Community, Adventures with Teens - David Kooharian

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Ep. 1126: Building Community, Adventures with Teens - David Kooharian · Adventure Sports Podcast

• 0:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi friends, welcome to the Adventure Sports podcast.
• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Today is a special show.
• 0:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a man here who was a dedicated father and found that taking young people teams especially into the woods and to having great adventures was just an amazing thing to do.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: He helped to found the organization they called the Wanderers.
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he is an artist.
• 0:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I live in Cape Cod, has been a teacher, rehab counselor, has four kids of his own, and we're going to talk about the transformational impact that Adventure can have for teens.
• 0:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So David, Caharian, welcome to the program.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Love to be here.
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's great.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking before I hit record and I finally said this is getting to good.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have record because we need to get this into the show but I think David and I have a very common heart when it comes to the way that adventure and especially nature can impact young people for the better and it's something that we both did with our families and so it's going to be fun to talk about this.
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So David give us a little bit of the backstory.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You and some other
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: parents started the wonderers and what was that all about?
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so my son and a couple of the other boys, his friends, we were all in scouting and we had a partying of the ways with the scouting community at some point and I just really wanted to keep doing stuff with my kids and I have daughters as well and the other dads also wanted to do some things.
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we kind of got together and decided to start our own kind of outdoor adventure group with some of the other scouts and some of their siblings of our sons.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we came up with the name the Wonders and our basic goal was when we started.
• 2:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It'd be great if we could do three, four trips over the summer or something like that.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: That would be a success in some ways.
• 2:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And eight years later, we were sort of wrapping it up only just because they were going off to college.
• 2:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we went out every month year round.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: for just eight years with kids constantly trying to raise the bar in the challenge and figure out what the kids needed and go in farther and longer and whatever.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's been, it was great.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's very, very cool.
• 2:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So eight years.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now how many kids ended up being a part of this group?
• 2:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think overall there was, there was about
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: nine kids who were pretty much solid the whole the whole time but we had some kids come and go from different times in a handful with just pop in for a trip or two here and there so and maybe over the eight years that might have been 1520 kids that participated on some level that's really fun yeah
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and they were all still together.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, they are the closest group of friends.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now they were all, you know, they're boyfriend, girlfriends, husbands, wives, and whatever.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now they're talking to some of them we're starting to have kids.
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're talking about starting their own wanderers.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great to get that out of here.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: The pair kids, you know.
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's fine, you know.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to repeat something that we talked about just a minute ago, but I think scouting is great, but it doesn't fit every scenario, it doesn't fit every mold and for the group of kids that I worked with, they were my sons, my nephews, and their friends.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes my daughter is well and in some of her friends, you know, just depend on the trip and probably a similar size, but what I think is my nephews that finally, they were in scouts and they finally went to their mom and said, can we just go with Uncle Curtis and the reason was because with a smaller group, when you're a part of the big organization,
• 4:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
• 4:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, with a smaller group, we had more liberty to do a little bit bigger adventures, and we knew the individual abilities of each of the teams that we were working with.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: That also helps a lot.
• 4:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were able to do some things that were pretty crazy and it sounds like you had a similar experience.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
• 4:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we did, well first, like I said, I, you know, I had daughters.
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So having my daughters involved, yeah, great.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And our goal was to just try to figure out where that core group was and just get a little bit ahead of where they needed to go.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we could kind of push them, but that, like you said, depends on really knowing those group of kids, and knowing what they would need and what their limitations are and what all of that kind of stuff.
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we, uh, so we would go once a month, year-round, and do a trip every Saturday night, we would have a little meeting, which was basically in place for the kids to hang out and the adults to, like, also hang out and, uh,
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've just sort of planned our trip and then we would go on these these trips and we went as far as North Carolina
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: The trip that all of the kids' references there, like most epic trip, was the one to North Carolina.
• 5:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: We climbed Grandfather Mountain and every afternoon, and at the summertime, there's a threat of showers and things like that.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we weren't expecting anything bad, but it turned into starts raining.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, we go with that, and then it was just horrendous, thunder and lightning.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point we were backpacking and we let the kids go ahead of us and they were supposed to stop at a little shelter just before somebody Yeah, the top of the mountain We got to the shelter and it was a little lean to kind of a thing and
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: looked inside and the kids are not there and there's water rushing underneath the shelter over a cliff because the things set up on a cliff so with this oh my goodness so it's like the kids aren't there it's so loud you can't even you can barely hear yourself right so I leave yeah there's one of my buddies don't
• 6:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he has a son with autism who's not a fan of loud noises, so with them and my wife and our smallest child and like you guys stay here I got to go find these kids and I had an air horn and I'm like running up through the water and the creek and stuff looking for them and at the base of this rock face is a wooden ladder on the thing is there was a plane crash back in the 70s or something.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like standing in the middle of like
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, playing parts, you know, we're somebody I 20 years earlier said looking for these kids and all of a sudden a head pops up over the rock face at the top and you know, and I saw you found him and they started getting them off.
• 7:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was, it was that coming down.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's all slippery and stuff and so my daughter kind of slipped him was like, just terrified, she hates thunder and lightning.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so my son had to like crawl up and take her backpack and get her off the thing.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: thing.
• 7:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, and then we set up the tent, you know, in the tent filled with water because it was raining so so curiously.
• 7:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I got them and I found the tent.
• 7:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're all completely soaking wet.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the only person who had proper equipment that day was was my daughter Madison because the boys had all been watching like those adventure shows like Bear Grillis and Surah.
• 7:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they were condensed all they needed was like, you know, pair of shorts and a massive knife and they're good, you know, whatever.
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And something that we were sort of like, hey, here's the list of stuff you should bring.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't bring it, that's on you and, you know, we'll see how that goes.
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, we got them all the thing and they had just the most miserable night on this mountain because they were freezing cold and, you know, they all wanted to share and, you know,
• 8:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so I got back to the shelter, sokin wet, everything was just freezing and stuff.
• 8:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then in the morning, the mist is clearing and I look out over the forest and it looked like something out of a prehistoric thing.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would not have been surprised to see some sort of dinosaur kind of tromping vegetation, you know.
• 8:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, if the mist is clean, you could see the sky was starting to brighten, and I was just like, Oh, it's absolutely beautiful.
• 8:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: We got to go to the summit, you know.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, who wants to go and the, my, my, don't son, um, as autism mat, he was the only one to spook up and he's like, well, I do.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we went back up to the thing.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I was talking to the kids and they, um, the next day and they were like, yeah, we, we went right by the shelter because it was raining so hard.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't see the turn off.
• 9:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: to the shelter and they went all the way to the top and didn't realize they were at the top until like got to the top and that's where he headed back and yeah and then you know and then like we got to get off the top there's lightning this things and so it was them trying to figure out how to get off of there and they found like a rock crevice to crawl under and then one of them's like no wait the lightning will arc underneath the wet rock and like we can't this is not safe we got to get out of here and
• 9:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, so it was a massive kind of thing for them.
• 9:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And to this day, that's like the, they will say, that's the coldest they've ever been.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And whatever, but they enjoyed every second of it, because it was a real adventure.
• 9:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for that real adventure.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I reflect on that story.
• 9:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking nature surprises us sometimes.
• 9:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I've talked to a lot of guides and about when do you call it when do you say okay guys we're not going to do this today we're turning around you know that sort of conversation and you don't always get to have that conversation.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the kids went up ahead of you, right?
• 10:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so they they were figuring it out on their own at this point.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those situations that could have gone worse, but usually and forgive me for over generalizing here.
• 10:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Usually people get away with it, you know what I mean, it's like, all that wasn't really the way we should have done that.
• 10:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what an amazing adventure and everyone's okay and in the end they made some good decisions and that speaks I think to the the organization and the way that you guys were talking to these kids.
• 10:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I mean we do enough to seek shelter and get off the top.
• 10:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: They knew what to do and even though they didn't, you know, the guys didn't bring all the gear that they shouldn't brought and whatever.
• 10:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: They changed their way after that.
• 10:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, they got, you know, if things had gone really, really bad, I couldn't have gotten us off the mountain.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: that night right now like we could have gone got now and gotten back to a car and you know so it's about a risk assessment kind of thing and with everything I tried to do I would try to visualize what is sort of the natural parameters in which they would probably operate does that feel safe and do I have a backup plan to get people out in case something really goes wrong
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, we're on the top of the mountain.
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were not supposed to go to the top of the mountain.
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were supposed to wait.
• 11:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, that didn't go according to plan.
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, like you said, they knew enough to get off the top of the mountain.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot of crazy experience.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was, so that's the one that stands up.
• 11:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the big ones.
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: There was another trip with the group near the end of our time.
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're all, you know, finish and high school getting ready to go to college and all the stuff.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: We did Mount Washington, and we went up the Webster Clif Trail, which is only six miles, but it's so freaking steep.
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: It took me six hours to climb it.
• 11:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: The other two dads who are with us, Don and Rich, it took them 12 hours.
• 11:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Don got his trail name is Half Mile, based on that.
• 12:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we went to the top of the, we were not there as a midsphohud and there was a campground there so we stayed at the campground and the next day we were going to do I forget how many miles it is it's just like you know whatever six miles out to the top of Mount Washington from our camp so 12 miles out and back
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: and now the boys all just you know it's like a packet dogs you know puppies or whatever they just they took off the weekend the morning and they're just running you know through the woods so my daughter comes over to me and she's uh she was 14 or 15 at the time and so a typical conversation with her at the time i joke is uh it's like hey man he have a great day and she'd be like don't tell me what to do you know
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this was not her favorite thing to be doing right now at that age, you know, during high school and all that kind of stuff and she was She was convinced that lightning would get her at the top of the mountain and to be fair she'd had experience with lightning at the top of the mountain And her other great cheer was that she would run into somebody she knew from school
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: which I thought chances that, you know, like, we're on the middle of this mountain.
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so she's like, it's me and you dad.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, okay, so we go off and the weather's changeable and all this kind of stuff.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: For hiking along in Chichat and we get right near the base of the summit.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a big warning sign.
• 13:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: People, yes, dangerous mountain.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: People have died on this mountain.
• 13:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And every time you see a sign like that, I would have to stop and take a picture in front of it as a sort of last scene.
• 13:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, whatever.
• 13:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we get to the top of the mountain.
• 13:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a really disconcerting weird kind of thing but there's like a welcome center at the top because there's a road that goes up.
• 13:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we go in the welcome center and there's a big board with all the people who've perished on the on the Oh my goodness.
• 13:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so she's pointing out to me where her name is going to be added to this And as she's doing this as she's doing this all of a sudden it's like the lights went out They got completely like pitch black outside and she completely freaked out and just Screamed run and just bolted through the door and started running
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know jumping from bolder bolder try and not to fall and break something and then it starts raining and by the time we got to the the kind of the ridge of the mountain it was it was healing and it was like running you know lightning and thunder and it was pitch black and the wind is whipping and stuff and I like Maddie we got to get low again it like we're around exposed
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: exposed ridge on this mountain.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like we gotta get low, let's do the thing.
• 14:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we like diving into these bushes and then the lightning's flashing and the mountain's shaking and she's crying and stuff like Maddie.
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: We gotta be like 15 feet apart because one of us gets hit, we gotta be far enough away.
• 14:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the other one doesn't get killed as well.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, run on to me and she's like, I don't wanna die without you, Dad.
• 15:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I don't wanna die without you, Maddie.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're like hugging as always going on, you know, trying to who knows what's going to happen.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then after what seemed like hours, but I'm sure it was 10 to 15 minutes or something.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: You could see that the things we're lightening up and off in the distance was a little speckled blue.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so it was kind of a cloud was passing.
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we walked, once it kind of cleared up, we walked along and she was still shaking.
• 15:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she was holding my hand and for four and a half miles she wouldn't like oh my hand.
• 15:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: because behind us, it was still pitch black and you could still hear the rumbling of thunder and stuff in the back.
• 15:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going along right before we get to our campsite, there's the mits for hut, and we're tired, we're wet, we're dirty, it's like, let's just stop in for a second, we'll get some water, we'll just relax remit and then we'll finish the, you know, whatever.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we go to open the door and outwalks this kid and he looks at Maddie, he's like Maddie.
• 15:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, look at him.
• 16:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, Cringle.
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: His name is Chris, but she called him Cringle and I think he kind of had a crush on her or something.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the thing, but they, you know, for my school.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he was just like, what do you do when up here?
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, well, you know, we're with the wanders.
• 16:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: We just hike the top of the mountain.
• 16:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, oh my god, I really wanted to go and do all this stuff and with my family, but it was too dangerous because of the lightning and everything, and it's just like, you know, we just stayed here and it's a maddie, little hair flip.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, it's what we do, you know, we call it.
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So then we walk away, she says, right, and we walk away immediately.
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, oh my god, I can't believe I ran into him.
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so dirty.
• 16:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so wet on this and that, you know, just hysterical about
• 16:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: The trauma of seeing somebody that you know, and like Maddie, who else do you know From your school climbed the mountain mountain Washington in the middle of this horrendous thunderstorm all concepts like well, you know Sam and it's like Yeah, except for your brother in the boys that came with us, but you know, it's like nobody and like okay, so you know
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: that's pretty cool.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she's the hero actually.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then she held my hand and we walked into the camp, but now it wasn't because she was afraid.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was just, you know, because we were spending that time together and we'd had this big adventure.
• 17:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just like a super special time in, you know, anyways.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, so we last we cried, you know, let's get wiped off the mountain.
• 17:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's fun stuff, yeah.
• 17:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing how I think coming into full awareness of powers that are beyond us, the things that are out of our control, the sense of adventure that sometimes, you know, we've gone a step too far and we get away with it, but, you know, sometimes it's that adventure slaps us in the face and it gives us new perspective, I think.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no absolutely.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was with my son and his buddy that my son was in college at the time and he comes back for a spring vacation It's like six o'clock at night and he's like dad Brett and I we're gonna go to Virginia and we're gonna do like 50 miles on the AT or you in
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't know when you guys go in nine o'clock.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: My clock went like tonight Like what's the plan?
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna drive all night and we're gonna hike in the thing and I was just like what when's my son ever gonna ask me to do something like that again You know, I'm like yeah, I'm in.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and we get there whether it's great at first and then it turns and Like the second day is started getting colder
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: and Brett is calling, and he talked to his father something.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Huge, like, blizzard coming through.
• 18:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be five degrees, 50 mile in our winds.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be crazy and whatever.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're in our tents.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, well, I don't know, guys.
• 18:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's not much we can do about it and Brett's like, yeah, but this is when you feel most alive.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, let's go strong.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: These are the trips you remember.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, no one remembers the good weather trips.
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're just remember the ones that we're, you know.
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: things were tough.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, we had this whole hike and through the blizzard and spend it in a night, you know, and, like, zero degree weather, you know, and it's a lot of them on the kind of stuff.
• 19:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's true.
• 19:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, those are the trips that stick out, you know, when we think about the trips, it's not the ones that where everything went according to plan and the weather was perfect, and all that kind of stuff, and it's the ones where you were freezing cold, or it was snow and, you know, you got lost, there was a lightning storm, or I don't know, whatever.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It does.
• 19:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It makes you feel a lot, you know.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: it does.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Last night, my son is working on a master's in ecology right now and he's doing a project where he's measuring the mercury levels in freshwater fish.
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: He needed two more fish to fill his quota for his project and it was the last day that he could get them.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was out of time the project.
• 20:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's been working on this through the winter and through the summer and I mean down to the
• 20:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to go into too much detail, but we went out in the evening because I needed two rainbow trout and we couldn't, we couldn't catch any trout.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was just like, are you kidding me?
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, last, we're down to the last few hours of a nine-month project.
• 20:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's like two more fish.
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we stayed out a little bit later, mortal of the story, then we normally would have.
• 20:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's dark.
• 20:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're at the end, I'll throw this in there just because it was an amazing experience.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: At the end, we caught the two biggest rainbow trout we've ever caught in our lives just before we had to be gone.
• 20:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was the way that these things go, but as we're paddling our canoe back in,
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we hear this noise behind this, and at first I think it's an elk or a mule deer crossing the river, and then I realize, no, no, that's somebody paddling.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well this guy comes up behind us, and it's pitch black by this point.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: We can just barely see him, but he's pulling two kayaks, not one.
• 21:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: and he gets out where it's muddy and didn't realize because of so dark it couldn't even see the mud so he's trying to wrestle these two kayaks to the mud muds up to about his knees and i finally say how's the mud was a mud over there but you know
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Point was, one of his buddies had flipped his boat and lost it.
• 21:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he had gone back to try to recover the boat.
• 21:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so there, you know, they're doing all the things.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: When things don't go as planned, they're trying to recover from this and it's dark and he's struggling in the mud, pulling these heavy kayaks and I didn't say it because I thought, you know, this is probably not the time.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I thought it.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, this is the one you'll remember.
• 21:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is when adventure gets get it actually.
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not when you got out at sunset and it was a pretty sunset and you jumped in your truck and went home.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's when you're out an hour and a half past sunset and you're into the mud up to your knees and you're dragging two boats instead of one and wondering where your buddy is.
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the one you're going to remember.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, it's fun, and it's interesting too, because we would go out year round, so, you know, there was a lot of spring trips in March, April, whatever, and it's wet, and then it's cold, you know, it's like 35 degrees in rainy, or whatever, sitting around and fire with some of these kids.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be like, I'm just impressed that you guys still want to give up, you know, a weekend with your friends and I've been out and come out with a couple of old timers like me and you know, Don and Rich and whatever and like sitting the woods and whatever and they were all universally like now I look we look forward to this because it gets us away from like all the stress of like school and the in the social media stuff like they would turn their phones off and we kind of had a rule like don't bring electronics
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: At some point it's kind of it's the music and their camera and whatever, but they were really good about it I never saw them on anything when we were out, you know, maybe they were 10th or whatever, but at night or something but they would look forward to that just decompress and to go out and do the thing and
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was a great experience that way.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think also for my daughter has commented that she can tell the people who are in the group at some point and people who have never had that experience based on how they treat the women in the girls who are in their life.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because Maddie was a couple years younger than most of the boys.
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it would be like, you know, the dad's and I would pull her aside before they ran off and stuff like, okay, Maddie, so they're going to go and do stupid things.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you need to be kind of the voice of reason, you know, it's like you're not in charge, but you know, like the little voice that says, you know, maybe we should, you know, and they and everything they did she did.
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: better as good or better, you know, she just, she just, and she's very competitive, you know, so anyways, she wasn't going to be left behind or shown up by the boys and stuff.
• 23:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think they, there was a growing respect for that, not to say that they were, you know, they were all good kids anyways.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, but she said she could tell a difference and she felt that part of that was how we talked to the kids in the way we kind of organized things,
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: trying to make it as equal as possible.
• 24:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was nice to with between for the kids in the dance and stuff because, you know, you might get frustrated with your own kid a little bit.
• 24:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the other dad, you know, Don or Rich or something, who will come up is like, but, you know, the best thing about Sam is what this or something, he would be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or vice versa, you know, Rich might be going and it's like, well, you know, if my kid and I was like, I know, but he was like, over the other day and he would, you know, whatever.
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: perspective you know and so those are kinds of things that I think are really important those experiences are really important and I also did some other things that were so part of our adventure I also wanted the kids to be able to function outside of the woods so I would organize scavenger hunts in Boston so it would take them all to a tea stuff on the outskirts of Boston
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you list the things you need to go find, you need to be in groups, you need to have all your communication with you.
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're in the city, we're going to use all your resources and all this stuff and we're going to meet you.
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's manual home in the middle of Boston, and that kind of gets so many hours or whatever.
• 25:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You would have to go and prove that you went there, take a picture of yourself in front of whatever.
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, well, I don't know how to get on this, like, how do you do the subway and whatever?
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I don't know how so up guys, you can't figure it out, read the map, you know, work all the way, you know, you can figure it out.
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: and they would go off and do it and so we did that a few times and it was great because one of the kids you know a few months later went with this girlfriend from New York City and they used the subway and stuff and his dad's like you know asked them how did you make out you know and he's like oh it was fine yeah because it was like wonders you know like we had to work to problem you know it's figured out to work to problem yeah I
• 26:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love the way that you empowered these these teenagers and in taught them that they can do things they get that sense of the the well I just call out the can do it of course you know I want them how does that benefit them later?
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really wanted to I so I also when I was a teacher I led a trip
• 26:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: to Europe, it was an international school, and they would have international trips.
• 26:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I was a teacher, I was took my daughter, Maddie, her senior year in a group of others, like 25 kids.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I used the same philosophy when I went.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's the option of filling every second of their time with some structure and keeping track of everyone.
• 26:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or being very hands-off.
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I chose to be super hands-off.
• 26:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And let them have as much freedom as I thought they could handle.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Within sort of areas, so if we were in a small village in Switzerland in the mountains and the kids wanted to go out and take some pictures and roam around the thing Like yeah, that seems pretty safe.
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't they don't need to be escorted doing that you know those are
• 27:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I knew the kids that was good, you know, some different kinds of things like that.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't even make a big deal out of counting them, or any of that kind of thing.
• 27:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: My daughter even said, it's like, I didn't realize you were gonna keep in track of us until the third day.
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, you don't need to know that.
• 27:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I need to know where everyone is.
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to know.
• 27:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want them to feel like they're on a trip by themselves and feel confident enough so that, you know, year or two or after college, they could come back and tour Europe and they would know,
• 27:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, I already did this, you know, like, this is not a big deal.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know how this works.
• 27:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So my big, the principal did question me about one of my decisions, which worked out fine, but it was at the end.
• 27:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're flying out of Zurich or something and things.
• 27:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we're flying away in a connecting flight in Europe.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was delayed, or take our flight was delayed because of weather.
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so they came and told us.
• 27:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like, you're only going to have like 15 minutes
• 27:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: to connect to your flight, or you're going to miss the flight, and all this kind of stuff.
• 28:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was thinking, and it's a huge place, it's got like a subway, because it's so big.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm not familiar with it.
• 28:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what's going on, you know.
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought wouldn't it be cool for the kids to be in charge and they would have to lead us through the airport.
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, all right, I need a boy in a girl up front and I had, I knew there was one guy he had traveled with his family, you know.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like a brilliant student, a great athlete, handsome fellow and on top of it, just a super nice guy, you know.
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: all of it you know yeah yeah and then my daughter who and had her struggles and stuff but I knew it was supremely capable under those conditions and sort of needed that for her own growth and also to kind of show her friends that she's more than they than they expected so I'm like all right here's the deal how to love we got 15 minutes we got across the airport we got you guys got to figure out where we're going here's the gate I saw I know and I'm gonna be in the back
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not in your, it's not in your, it's not in our language.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, nothing is familiar.
• 29:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I had some other teachers and one of them was an older, an older teacher and his wife and stuff.
• 29:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like we're going to be a little slow.
• 29:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like I'm going to bring up the back and make sure we don't lose anybody and stuff.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's up to you guys to get us to the gate and do it.
• 29:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, ultimately there's more planes.
• 29:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, the risk was like whatever we're going to make it or not.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And stuff.
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But.
• 29:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were so energized and so focused and then stuff and they just absolutely nailed it.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: They hit the right pace so that we didn't fall too far behind.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: They knew where we were going.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're sending out scouts and they're doing whatever.
• 29:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we got there, like, with a minute to go, got on the plane and flew back.
• 29:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and the principal later's like, So tell me about, why would you do that?
• 29:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why should I be really cool?
• 29:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
• 29:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: But these kids shine.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, why not?
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like,
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there were moments on that trip as well where going in the subway and Paris, you know, hey, we got it, we're going to wherever and the kids are like, how do we, how do we do it?
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you guys are smart, how to let go figure it out, you know, like work the problem.
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they would come up with the thing, I had one teacher, the older teacher, and he would be like, so I can show him how to do, I know where it is.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I know you know how to do it, and I know how to do it, but they need to figure it out, you know.
• 30:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we'd get out of the subway, and you're all turned around, I'm like, all right, this is a map.
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is it?
• 30:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've never seen paper maps at a cap of them, you know?
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So here's how we're going to read the maps.
• 30:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So who's going to be in charge?
• 30:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, how do we know which way we're going?
• 30:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what do we do?
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we discover, we go the wrong way.
• 30:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, all of this kind of stuff.
• 30:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they were so excited to be in charge of all this stuff.
• 30:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they earned more freedom to go and to explore on their own for a few hours and pairs and do all that kind of stuff.
• 30:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's kind of the approach that I would take to everything.
• 30:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's figure out kind of where I knew they were capable in my head, build a little map of like, okay, this is the area that they're going to be in.
• 31:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It goes really wrong.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can contact them.
• 31:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can get them out of here.
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's my back.
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: My skin plan.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: That kind of thing.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But as much as possible, I wanted them to have the experience of being on their own.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what does it feel like to be on the trip with your buddies in Europe?
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so that's kind of the approach that I would that I take with that kind of that kind of thing
• 31:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it sounds fantastic, and I still do adventure to find out what I'm capable of, right?
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that that's really what it's all about.
• 31:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just doing something that's slightly beyond what you've done before and finding out how it goes and what you can handle and giving that gift to young people.
• 31:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's, that's, could potentially change the rest of the day.
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they have gone off the rails.
• 31:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so my son and two of the other boys, right after our high school took a gap here,
• 32:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I sent my son to Kenya to, it was a program, a work study, kind of program, he taught school in a remote village in Kenya and then he climbed Mount Kenya and went on safari.
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: At like 19, came back and then hike the Appalachian Trail.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: all of the kids have gone on other adventures and things for my son and my daughter Maddie except they were out in the wind river mountains and Wyoming last year going on like a 10-day backcountry expedition they were doing mountain with the grizzly deer they're doing mountain climbing they're doing things the last one my son was out there he was very he doesn't he wasn't telling me all the stuff I had to hear from the other people what what actually happened
• 32:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: whatever, actual kind of mountain climbing thing.
• 32:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: sliding off of the glacier and rocks falling down on them and you know hoping that they, you know, like, can we stop in time before we go off the edge and all this thing and then they found out that the area was on fire so they had to escape and it's at some point they're like driving a road just before it gets closed and it's like embers and smoke everywhere and they're throwing as fast as they can trying to get through the fire so that they don't get, you know, like this whole massive adventure
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was my son Sam and my daughter Madison husband who's a he's a naval officer and he does a lot of You know outdoorsy stuff and his brother who was done a ton of that kind of so they were heavily planned and and all the stuff and they had you know Rescue beacons and they they were they did it really right, but even still
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a super huge challenge for them to get through and make quick decisions about what they're going to do and how fast to move and which way to go and all that kind of stuff.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're all still doing that and then because they have this love of the adventure and they're not afraid to do it and they have this attitude that we'll figure it out.
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll solve the problem, we'll be prepared and stuff will go wrong and we will work the problem and we will take care of each other.
• 34:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then on top of it all, it's kind of fun.
• 34:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just my own little personal perk of the thing.
• 34:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: But four of the kids in our group have gotten married and all four of them asked me to officiate their wedding.
• 34:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that means a lot to me, like, that's an experience that they value.
• 34:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And every year we still have, we get together as a group and every growing group for our Christmas party.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's, you know, we still all come back to get now.
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's like 25 for us, you know, who all gather because everyone's got boyfriend's girl.
• 34:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So David, just for a moment, will you consider what your life and their lives might have been like, had you not done this?
• 34:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it would be boring.
• 34:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I loved it.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: I loved every second of it.
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I loved watching those kids thrive and do stuff, you know, in the sense of accomplishment.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you can just see it in them.
• 34:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know that they can do this you know and it's uh... and when they would go with somebody else to do something there's one of the things that you know we we established right off the bat is like there's no point complaining it's always too hot to cold to steep to wet to dry to buggy to like it's yeah there's 15 minutes here and there were like it's like this is really nice you know and then something changes and we're not feeling it so there's no point in complaining
• 35:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, and they just kind of got tough into that.
• 35:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they know a complaint about like, whatever it is, they just like, yeah, it's too hot, it's too cold, it's like, yeah, it's what it is, you know, we're here for the adventure and so it's great.
• 35:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in their relationships together, I think it really cemented their relationships.
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like an end-it-game at this point.
• 35:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: We spent so much time together.
• 35:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then this memory, so one of the families, my buddy, Don, his son,
• 35:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: his wife's family had a big house out in western mass and we literally just called it the big house.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we'd go out to western mass for adventures and we'd get late Friday night, we'd arrive and we'd all stay at the big house and it was a very Norman Rockwell-esque big big house.
• 36:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the kids would all like they would do their thing and take over the outdoor porch and do all this stuff and they'd camp out there all night, even at the winter time with no heat, you know, like they're fine, you know.
• 36:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we'd have a little business in the morning and then off to some adventure and things.
• 36:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just those kinds of memories and those things, yeah, I don't think you can, there's no replacing that, you know, as far as, and what would they be doing?
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Very isolated, I'm sure they would have had great experiences and stuff, but that group of people, and that sense of real community and family and stuff, I think was, yeah, it was just incredible.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: well what if other parents or people that were soon parents or they think someday I'm gonna do that you know if someone wants to do something like this in the advice
• 36:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, well, we kind of started our own thing after the scout.
• 36:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we had a little bit of outdoorsy kind of experience and stuff.
• 36:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But basically, we started out hard camping, so we just go and the kids were little and we'd set up 10s all there.
• 37:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then the kids need a little more freedom.
• 37:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we get them a spot, a few sights down.
• 37:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: They'd set up their own stuff.
• 37:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's like, okay, a little bit of backpack and we kind of,
• 37:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: dip our toes into that we do like a two mile bike pack backpack to a shelter or something and you know it's little my little and just following the interest of those kids but if you have two or three families or something with some kids
• 37:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great base to start with, you know.
• 37:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we had kids who's parents weren't involved in stuff, but some parents were more involved, some not, you know, whatever.
• 37:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was a nice experience for those kids who didn't have parents that could do it, you know, could participate in that kind of thing.
• 37:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's uh, and we went, we met every Saturday night.
• 37:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was kind of like the parents would kind of hang out and do our little thing.
• 37:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: In some time, we have a little barbecue going to everyone bring their food.
• 37:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: and the kids would hang out in the basement of the finished basement.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: They would eventually, they would all stay over.
• 38:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like every Saturday night.
• 38:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in the morning, I would wake up and make breakfast for everyone as they would come up one by one.
• 38:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it gave me a chance to talk to each one of them individually.
• 38:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just, you know, check in with them, how you do it, and how things go, and whatever.
• 38:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh,
• 38:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was just, again, it was like a giant family.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we knew where the kids were.
• 38:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: They all looked out for each other.
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm sure they did things.
• 38:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: We would not necessarily approve of.
• 38:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at least I knew where they were doing it and who they were doing it with.
• 38:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they were looking out for each other and not making sure no one's nothing got out of hand.
• 38:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of thing.
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: But
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's just you know find a couple of other families that got kids the same age and a little bit of like saying dip your toes in it And it's also it doesn't it can be anything like we did the the scavenger hunts and boston stuff But I also made them go ballroom dancing so I wanted them I wanted them to be able to like hey You're gonna get invited to a wedding where you're gonna go somewhere or whatever So yeah, yes, we want to be competent in the woods, but we need to be competent
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: at home as well, you know.
• 39:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we would do a thing.
• 39:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would get the bold dancing lesson and we would have a lesson for an hour and then we put the music on and they and their friends could dance and have a little dance thing and whatever.
• 39:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we had lots of different kinds of things.
• 39:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever it was, it was get out, go do something, have an adventure together, let's grow, let's learn something, solve some problems, you know, and just keep anticipating where they're going.
• 39:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a theory of's called leading from the emerging future.
• 39:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the idea is, like, you're sort of intuiting where those kids are trying to get to, even if they can't quite see it themselves.
• 39:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, I know what they need.
• 39:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so when we were talking with Don and Rich and I, we were talking about, like, hey, I think the kids are ready for this or that.
• 39:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, they need a more challenge or something.
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we were trying to design adventures too.
• 40:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: just be a little bit ahead of where they thought they were and just help them grow into where they wanted to go.
• 40:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little, it's like a philosophical kind of thing.
• 40:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think in some ways about how you approach that into your point about like knowing the kids, and when you know those kids really, really well, you can do so much more and really tailor
• 40:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: the events for them, you know, and you know how far to trust them or not trust them in certain things, you know, like where their strengths, where their weaknesses are, you know, more than a scouting program, which is more of a, you just got to treat everybody the same and hope that you, you know, you kind of get it right for the most of them stuff like that.
• 40:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I highly recommend it.
• 40:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was one of the best things we ever did.
• 40:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, for some parents, they're hearing your adventures and sounds like a big stretch for them and they're thinking, well, that sounds great, but I'm scared to try that.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, any recommendations for parents are like, I don't know, and that's the only thing we fear.
• 41:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I would start super, super small, pack up some stuff, go car camping, you don't have to spend much money, like whatever the cheap stuff is, or you buy it at a flea market, that's fine.
• 41:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, just have fun with the kids who can some outdoor stuff, you know, help them get them going, who can the food, you know, and figuring out what's going on.
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just that experience of being outside and being starting to be comfortable in that environment.
• 41:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then as you get as your comfort level increases, you can start to gradually spread out.
• 41:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you don't have to do anything.
• 41:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's nothing magical.
• 41:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't have to start out at the top of my Washington.
• 41:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or any of that kind of thing.
• 41:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: That would be a later trip.
• 41:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It would be my recommendation.
• 41:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: But take a rock climb and go to a rock climb and do whatever it is.
• 41:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: take the bikes and go explore, you know, some, some area or something or even do day hikes on a mountain.
• 42:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a beautiful mountain around near Boston, the blue hills of Boston.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's nice little hike you go up there from the top.
• 42:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can see all of this Boston skyline and stuff and it's great.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful, outdoor day.
• 42:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You get a little bit of hiking kind of thing.
• 42:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, but we get, get that and, uh,
• 42:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's just gradual and it's about to community and haven't fun really and everyone's going to learn together.
• 42:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know the kids are going to build skills as your build skills, you know, maybe stay one step ahead of them.
• 42:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I I read a lot of books as a young man about adventure because I just this are eating it, but those sorts of how two books, bushcraft books,
• 42:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I gained a lot of ideas, but also I think some, some skills, and then you go into the woods, you get to try it.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's like, well, I didn't work out like I thought I would, but hey, I learned something and I could see how that could be just so warm.
• 43:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've read a lot of those books myself, you know, and so it's like, okay, well, I need to start the fire with the Flint and the steel and, you know, the actual rock and not the like the
• 43:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm kind of stuck, you know, and teach all the kids how to do it, you know, make sharp cloth and do all this kind of thing, you know, just because it's cool, and I read about it in stories.
• 43:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then now there's YouTube for everything, so if you're not sure how to do something, there's somebody who's got a video, show you how to do what to pack or whatever.
• 43:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I will say there's one other thing, so I use backpacking
• 43:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: things in the sense that when you first go backpacking, if you get a list, there's a huge, this kind of a daunting list of stuff you're supposed to take, you know, and the special like in Boy Scouts I know that there was a whole list of stuff, you know, and you're carrying all this weight, and at some point you've been on a few trips and you're like, I've never used this stuff, you know, there's a bunch of stuff you've never used, and the point is that's somebody else's stuff, and at some point in life or in backpacking, you've got to sort
• 44:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: and get rid of the things that are not helping you.
• 44:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're carrying around gear that you don't need or never use, you get rid of that.
• 44:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But also in life, you know, your parents are putting stuff on you, some of it's their fears about things or anxieties or whatever and stuff and realizing at some point what's your stuff and what's their stuff and it's kind of separating some of that.
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in backpacking, you know,
• 44:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's uphill downhill, it's hot, it's wet, it's quite, you know, like it's, it's never, it's never great, but you just keep making progress and you keep trucking along.
• 44:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not really ever even about getting to the finish, it's so much, it's just, it's the experience of going along and so much life is like that.
• 44:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so I do think that there's a, there's a nice kind of analogy about.
• 44:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: about that kind of thing.
• 44:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: If it's figuring out what you need, and I ask my son after he height the application trail, how do you determine what you need for how much stuff to bring.
• 45:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like, what you pack for your fears, if you're afraid to be in hungry, you're going to bring a lot of food.
• 45:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're afraid to be in cold, you're going to bring a lot of clothes.
• 45:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever you're afraid to be in uncomfortable, you're going to bring a lot of luxury things.
• 45:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no right or wrong answer to any of
• 45:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're packing for your fears or your anxieties, what do I need to be prepared for?
• 45:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's stuff in it, you know, I think that's also in life, you know, like the pack of your afraid to go outside if you're anxious about it, because you've never had that experience of stuff.
• 45:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're going to avoid it, but, you know, dip in your toes in that and do in the little
• 45:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even if it's day trips or, you know, the overnight with car camping or something, you know, you bring the chairs and all those fun stuff from whatever you know.
• 45:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's great.
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're just getting used to it, getting acclimated to the environment, finding your comfort level with it all.
• 46:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, creating that community in those memories with all those, with all the kids and stuff like that.
• 46:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Man, I love the idea that people pack for their fears, but I don't get to do that in my life.
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.
• 46:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 46:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, yeah.
• 46:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: He told me that.
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was just like, holy shit.
• 46:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's really, that's really profound.
• 46:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's good stuff.
• 46:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's good stuff.
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well,
• 46:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: the fun thing about backpacking is that you can see the progress so the first trip you pack for your fears and in your packs too heavy and then you become afraid of heavy pack.
• 46:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to look this around right but it's like well if I just knew a little bit more about this I wouldn't have to bring that and then it becomes motivation to learn.
• 46:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And eventually you get to the point that you have a very light pack and you're very confident that you have every penny.
• 46:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 46:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And ideally, you know, in life, you kind of do that, too.
• 46:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you kind of get through, like, okay, I don't get to worry about all these things.
• 46:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm focusing.
• 46:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, my way becomes more clear, and I'm finding my way, and I got the right amount of, I'm carrying the right amount of weight, physically, better forically.
• 47:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 47:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that crazy?
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there, there's so much in life if we take the time to notice, you have to take the time to notice David, but if you take the time to notice what you're lugging around with you and then say, do I really want that?
• 47:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do I really need that?
• 47:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that, is that some baggage that I need that really helping me or is it just something that I'm dragging around?
• 47:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that?
• 47:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how can I release that and have a new freedom?
• 47:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not carry that load.
• 47:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, and I've always been a believer in this stuff.
• 47:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it can be so beneficial for people of any age, but for teens.
• 47:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's something about the teenage years that are just perfect.
• 47:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's when children are becoming adults and they need to have challenges.
• 47:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need to have a sense of autonomy.
• 47:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need to have
• 47:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: the opportunity to make wrong decisions and face the consequences.
• 48:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they just need to experience it all because that's how you become a mature self-reliant confident.
• 48:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 48:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
• 48:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 48:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: No.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: What a gift you've given these.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's a job.
• 48:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had no plan.
• 48:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I just sort of
• 48:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of the same philosophy it worked out and I'm learning as much from the kids as I'm trying to teach them and it's that kind of it's a reciprocal kind of thing it keeps going around and you know different iterations of you know like I try to do something they react to something like I need to think about it like that right and seeing it like that let me try it like this and
• 48:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's constantly going, it's not just a top down on the leader because I'm in charge or whatever.
• 48:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, now we're all here and I'm concerned for your safety first and foremost, but, you know, but being on that, it's like, yeah, we're all learning this, you know, and sometimes they kids show up and they say, like, profound things or, you know, do stuff or whatever and I'll tell you one other real quick story.
• 49:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I
• 49:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: leading all these kids and watching them grow and all that kind of stuff.
• 49:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was always, you know, one of the, I went to the front of the window.
• 49:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come on guys, we can do this and let's help, you know, help and all that kind of stuff.
• 49:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And after my son, Hike the Appalachian Trail, we were hiking in North Carolina and doing some backpacking and Sam and I and my youngest Tony, it was hot and humid and whatever.
• 49:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I
• 49:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was just, I was gasped, like at one point, I had to sit out and say I sat down, I'm like I should need a breath and Sam came up to me, so sorry, Sam, sit down, you're less, I get we got this, you know, it's like, oh my god, that happened so fast.
• 49:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was in front, you know, and suddenly he's the one who's like in charge and watch it out for everybody and so it was sort of like, oh my god.
• 50:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel bad that I'm not that anymore, but then I was so proud of him that he was able to eat just effortlessly kind of just walked up and like, no, I got this, here's what we're going to do.
• 50:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to hand it all figured out and plan and everything, and you know, and it was for me it was just like, note to self, I got to step back.
• 50:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's ready to kind of move, move beyond.
• 50:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm going to be following him more and more about those things and allowing that, I think, was, at least in my mind, was a big step for me to allow him to mature and be take his place, kind of in charge of those things.
• 50:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when that happens, we get to learn more about humility.
• 50:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
• 50:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's good.
• 50:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's another life lesson that, but you know what they say.
• 50:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's when the student is teaching the teacher that you know the teach are really succeeded.
• 50:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's up.
• 50:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what, we've burned through our time already, David, it blows my mind because it went so fast and it was very, very entertaining, but not only that, so encouraging.
• 51:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the one thing we really haven't addressed, I don't want to open up a big can of worms, but I think we need to say something about it.
• 51:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Neuroticism, fear, emotional stability or instability.
• 51:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a personality trait.
• 51:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just a behavior.
• 51:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: hear the sorts of stories, and they're like, no way, that's terrifying, but I think what helps with neuroticism is experience, but I also think what helps is knowing what the appropriate boundaries are for safety.
• 51:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, and I'm just going to say it, if someone is a really neurotic, they want to set boundaries for everybody else that make them feel comfortable and that's not fair.
• 51:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not fair, and it's not even appropriate.
• 51:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Matter of fact, often, the safest thing to do is to take action that feels very uncomfortable.
• 51:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just curious, I know that you have experience with this, and you had to make those decisions.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when it comes to safety considerations,
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are some guidelines?
• 52:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, you're someone who feels pretty comfortable just delegating safety and responsibility.
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, one thing we did, we would talk to the kids a lot about safety, you know.
• 52:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we actually had a card deck of cards about like, okay, here's potential injuries or problems.
• 52:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you solve it?
• 52:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we'd hand the kids out to cards and like somebody would have to fain in injury and we would have to assess.
• 52:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we would definitely make sure that they understood proper use of the gear and all of that kind of stuff.
• 52:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you set things up it?
• 52:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what do you do?
• 52:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you're lost in whatever you don't panic.
• 52:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've got everything you need to stay warm, stay warm, and dry.
• 52:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we will find you.
• 52:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't move, you know, hug a tree.
• 52:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we will come and find you.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so we prepared a lot of those kinds of things.
• 52:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: We also talked about not being out there alone, you know, being with somebody, in case something happens, you fall and get hurt and whatever.
• 53:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 53:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, we'll come and find you and letting people know where you're going and and all that kind of when you're supposed to be back.
• 53:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also building mental maps and I think, so we're on Grandfather Mountain, we have the trail.
• 53:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know roughly where there's somewhere just off of this trail.
• 53:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they're just behind me or if they're ahead of me, but I'm not worried about them going, you know, bushwacking through the woods in random areas.
• 53:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know they're going to be somewhere on that trail.
• 53:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I also know that if I had to, I could get this off the mountain.
• 53:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: We could get hike back through the rain and the thunder, get back to the car, and get some place dry and warm.
• 53:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we really needed to, so it's assessing how are they doing?
• 53:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are they going to be all right?
• 53:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mind them being uncomfortable.
• 53:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's fine, that's part of the thing.
• 53:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't want anyone to be at risk or anything like that.
• 53:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So everything I do, I kind of build in those ideas.
• 53:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are the parameters?
• 53:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: The basic parameters, and where we're going to be, does that feel comfortable with that?
• 54:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And do I trust the people I'm with?
• 54:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it sort of stay in that kind of general area?
• 54:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how do I get them out if something goes wrong?
• 54:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now they don't need to know all of that necessarily because I want them to feel like they're independent and stuff.
• 54:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there is a moment where to get bad enough, I will call it, and we'll get out of there.
• 54:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now we never got to that point because we were able to solve the problems and we had what we needed to get through bad things, whether it's zero degree, whether it's a buzzer, or whether it's a horrendous ring storm and thunder and lightning, or whatever it is.
• 54:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: we're able to get through it and hunker down and carry on and stuff like that.
• 54:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's understanding the world and building, I think, mental maps are a great thing.
• 54:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I let the kids go and Paris and explore, okay, you're in the French quarter.
• 55:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: here's the thing you need to stay in the French Quarter and you got like two hours you guys can go explore and do you know whatever it is you want to do and then we're going to meet back because I didn't want them on the subway alone not because I wanted to show them how to do it but because I've been on the subway and there are a lot of you know sketchy characters and I didn't want them here.
• 55:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was not comfortable with them having to deal with that on their own.
• 55:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So those are boundaries that I'm establishing for myself and how I want to sort of guide them and curate their experience in a way that gives them the most amount of freedom, but also I feel comfortable that it's safe for them.
• 55:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my everyone's risk level is different.
• 55:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some people have a higher tolerance for it than others, like you were saying.
• 55:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I kind of drew three or four items out of what you just said that I want to kind of highlight one was preparation, you know, if you know how to do things, then you're not going to be in trouble because you don't know how to do it, right?
• 56:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so preparation was one of the things, you size the adventure, not so that it was no fun.
• 56:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you sized it so it'd be challenging.
• 56:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But within the limits of what you knew you could handle or something went wrong.
• 56:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you size the adventurer appropriately to stretch people, but so there's an element of safety, right?
• 56:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the kids probably didn't need it.
• 56:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't need to know, right?
• 56:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't need to.
• 56:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't need to.
• 56:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's also beautiful.
• 56:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then your own preparation, of course, you're like, oh, I know what I would have to do if something, the mental map.
• 56:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I've planned ahead for the eventualities that we don't want to happen.
• 56:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You still had it.
• 56:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: You had a plan.
• 56:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I always have a backup plan in case things really go bad.
• 56:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 56:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's what what I love about it is that it keeps the spirit of adventure going, but in a way that you
• 57:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, we're probably going to be just fine.
• 57:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's very low chance that something big is going to go wrong with it.
• 57:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I want those kids, so I'm not telling them all that because I want them to feel like this is a real adventure man.
• 57:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's no way out.
• 57:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like we got to make the work, you know.
• 57:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: In my mind, I'm like, now I have a plan to get us out, but you don't need to be aware of that.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I need to have that down.
• 57:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: You guys need to feel like, yeah, we're out here, man, it's just us.
• 57:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: We got to work this out, we got to figure it out, and I mean, I had kids on a cold zero degree night with wind blowing or whatever, decide
• 57:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're not doing tents.
• 57:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to hunker down.
• 57:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to put up a wing too.
• 57:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do a thing.
• 57:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I froze to death in my tent, doing this.
• 57:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, ask them in the morning and they're like, oh, no, it was great.
• 57:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Man, we were warned.
• 57:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We set up a little rock and the thing.
• 57:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: A little fire in front.
• 57:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, they nailed it.
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that was just on their own initiative and stuff.
• 58:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, they solve those problems and create that adventure and it's, you know, creating a space for them to have an adventure where they really feel like they're doing something.
• 58:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not an adventure if it's like you're in a park and you have like, okay, play on this or play on that.
• 58:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they all know, it's just like, well, there's a fence that goes all around and, you know, it's not that much of venture, you know.
• 58:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you can't see the sort of fence or it's more of a mental guideline, kind of fence, at least in my mind, it gives them the experience that there's just, yeah, we're just out here.
• 58:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got to make this work.
• 58:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do?
• 58:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a sense of adventure that grows for them, you know.
• 58:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for and for you as well.
• 58:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, David, it's beautiful.
• 58:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love what you did.
• 58:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love
• 58:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: what you're sharing with us and I hope that their listeners out there are like absolutely I'm gonna start doing this or someday I'll be doing this with my kids you know and I would say it's so good for teenagers especially you know how hard the teenagers traditionally can be but man if you can get kids into this kind of a dynamic then I think it just it's it's a hack like teenagers need it's what they can feed on and grow from and
• 59:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say thank you on behalf of everybody who can't say that right now, but thank you for sharing with us because you know it's it's inspirational but it's so much more than that it's it's an answer yeah a lot of people are probably looking for so I hope it helps anyway but I really appreciate the opportunity to come on and talk about it it's been it's got a lot of fun
• 59:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: for everyone out there.
• 59:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always say I get out there and have some fun, but the idea of being able to do it in a way that makes such an impact on so many lives, you know, a beautiful thing.
• 59:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 59:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thanks David.
• 59:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, take care to you again next time.