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IS IT BETTER TO BE or FLEE THE BIG BAD WOLF? · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod. Today,
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: we are, Joseph and I, going to take a look
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: at a little fairy tale that I think almost everyone
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: can remember as an early experience of teaching values and
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: morality and what is the right thing to do, especially
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: around good hard work. And the name of this story
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: is The Three Little Pigs. So here is the story,
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: and we're going to use the oldest version of it
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: that we could find, because oftentimes as stories get reworked
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: and reworked, a lot of embellishment is either removed or added,
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: and we tend to believe that the older version is
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: sort of the real deal in its original raw form.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: So here we go. The Three Little Pigs, an English Tale.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: Once upon a time, there was an old sow who
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: had three little pigs, and as she had not enough
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: for them to eat, she said they had better go
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: out into the world and seek their fortunes. Now the
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: eldest pig went first, and as he trotted along the road,
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: he met a man carrying a bundle of straw. So
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: he said very politely, If you please, sir, could you
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: give me that straw to build me a house? And
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: the man, seeing what good manners the little pig had,
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: gave him the straw, and the little pig set to
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: work and built a beautiful house with it. Now when
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: it was finished, a wolf happened to pass that way,
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: and he saw the house, and he smelt the pig inside.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: So he knocked at the door and said, Little pig,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: little pig, let me in, let me in. But the
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: little pig saw the wolf's big paws through the keyhole,
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: so he answered back, No, no, no, by the hair
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: of my chinny chin chin. Then the wolf showed his
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: teeth and said, Then I'll huff and I'll puff and
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: I'll blow your house in. So he huffed and he
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: puffed and he blew the house in. Then he ate
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: up the little piggy and went on his way. Now
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: the next piggy, when he started, met a man carrying
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: a bundle of furs. And being very polite, he said
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: to him, If you please, sir, could you give me
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: that furs or sticks to build me a house? And
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: the man, seeing what good manners the little pig had,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: gave him the furs, and the little pig set to
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: work and built himself a beautiful house. Now it so
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: happened that when the house was finished, the wolf passed
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: that way, and he saw the house and he smelled
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: the pig inside. So he knocked at the door and said,
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: Little pig, little pig, let me in, let me in.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: But the little pig peeped through the keyhole and saw
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: the wolf's great ears, so he answered back, No, no, no,
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: by the hair of my chinny-chin-chin. Then the wolf showed
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: his teeth and said, Then I'll huff and I'll puff
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: and I'll blow your house in. So he huffed and
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: he puffed and he blew the house in. Then he
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: ate up the little piggy and went on his way. Now,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: the third little piggy, when he started, met a man
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: carrying a load of bricks. And being very polite, he said,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: if you please, sir, could you give me those bricks
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: to build me a house? And the man, seeing that
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: he had been well brought up, gave him the bricks.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: And the little pig set to work and built himself
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: a beautiful house. And once again, it happened that when
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: it was finished, The wolf chanced to come that way,
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: and he saw the house, and he smelt the pig inside.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: So he knocked at the door and said, Little pig,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: little pig, let me in, let me in. But the
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: little pig peeped through the keyhole and saw the wolf's
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: great eyes. So he answered, No, no, no, by the
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: hair of my chinny-chin-chin. Then I'll huff and I'll puff
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: and I'll blow your house in, says the wolf, showing
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: his teeth. Well, he huffed and he puffed. He puffed
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: and he huffed, and he huffed, huffed, and he puffed, puffed,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: but he could not blow the house down. At last
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: he was so out of breath that he couldn't huff
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: and he couldn't puff anymore. So he thought a bit,
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: and then he said, Little Pig, I know where there
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: is ever such a nice field of turnips. Do you,
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: said the little piggy, and where might that be? I'll
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: show you, says the wolf, if you will be ready.
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  Speaker 3: At six o'clock tomorrow morning, I will call round for
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  Speaker 3: you and we can go together to Farmer Smith's Field
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  Speaker 3: and get turnips for dinner. Thank you kindly, says the
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: little piggy. I will be ready at six o'clock sharp.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: But you see, the little pig was not one to
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: be taken in with chaff. So he got up at five,
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  Speaker 3: trotted off to Farmer Smith's Field, rooted up the turnips
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  Speaker 3: and was home eating them for breakfast when the wolf
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  Speaker 3: clattered at the door and cried, Little pig, little pig,
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  Speaker 3: aren't you ready? Ready, says the little piggy. Why, what
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: a sluggard you are. I've been to the field and
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  Speaker 3: come back again, and I'm having a nice pot full
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: of turnips for breakfast. Then the wolf grew red with rage,
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: but he was determined to eat little piggy, so he
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: said as if he didn't care, I'm glad you like them,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: but I know something better than turnips. Indeed, says the
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: little piggy, and what may that be? A nice apple
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  Speaker 3: tree down in Merry Gardens with the juiciest, sweetest apples
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  Speaker 3: on it. So if you will be ready at five
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: o'clock tomorrow morning, I will come round for you and
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  Speaker 3: we can get the apples together. Thank you kindly, says
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  Speaker 3: Little Piggy. I will sure and be ready at five
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: o'clock sharp. Now the next morning he bustled up ever
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: so early. And it wasn't four o'clock when he started
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: to get the apples. But you see, the wolf had
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: been taken in once and wasn't going to be taken
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: in again. So he also started at four o'clock and
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: the little pig had just got his basket half full
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: of apples when he saw the wolf coming down the
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: road licking his lips. Hello, says the wolf. Here already?
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: You are an early bird. Are the apples nice? Very nice,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: says the little piggy. I'll throw you down one to try.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: And he threw it so far away that when the
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: wolf had gone to pick it up, the little pig
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: was able to jump down with his basket and run home. Well,
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: the wolf was fair angry. But he went next day
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: to the little piggy's house and called through the door,
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: as mild as milk. Little pig, little pig, you're so clever.
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  Speaker 3: I should like to give you a fairing. So if
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  Speaker 3: you will come with me to the fair this afternoon,
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  Speaker 3: you shall have one. Thank you kindly, says the little piggy.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: What time shall we start? Three o'clock sharp, says the wolf,
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: so be sure to be ready. I'll be ready before three,
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: sniggered the little piggy. And he was. He started early
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: in the morning and went to the fair, rode in
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: a swing, and enjoyed himself ever so much and bought
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: himself a butter churn as a fairing and trotted away
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: toward home before three o'clock. But just as he got
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: to the top of the hill, what should he see
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: but the wolf coming in, all panting and red with rage. Well,
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: there was no place to hide but in the butter churn.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: So he crept into it and was just pulling down
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: the cover when the churn started to roll down the hill.
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  Speaker 3: Bumpity bump bump. Of course, Piggy inside began to squeal.
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  Speaker 3: And when the wolf heard the noise and saw the
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: butter churn rolling down on top of him, bumpity bump bump,
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  Speaker 3: he was so frightened that he turned tail and ran away.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: But he was still determined to get the little pig
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: for his dinner. So he went the next day to
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: his house and told the little pig how sorry he
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: was not to have been able to keep his promise
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  Speaker 3: of going to the fair because of an awful, dreadful,
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: terrible thing that had rushed at him, making a fearsome noise.
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  Speaker 3: Dear me, says little piggy, that must have been me.
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  Speaker 3: I hid inside the butter churn when I saw you
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  Speaker 3: coming and it started to roll. I am sorry I
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: frightened you. but this was too much. The wolf danced
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: about with rage and swore he would come down the
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  Speaker 3: chimney and eat up the little pig for his supper.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: But while he was climbing onto the roof, the little
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: pig made up a blazing fire, put on a big
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: pot full of water to boil. Then, just as the
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: wolf was coming down the chimney, the little piggy off
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: with the lid and plumped and fell the wolf into
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: the scalding water. So the little piggy put on the
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: cover again, boiled the wolf up, and ate him for supper.
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  Speaker 3: So one of the things that strikes me about this
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  Speaker 3: tale is it does not shy away from gore, does it?
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  Speaker 3: Two little pigs get eaten, and then we have the
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: satisfying ending of the wolf dying And they're.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Being gobbled up. That's right. That's a wonderful part of
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: the older fairy tales, that instinctive intensity remains in the
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: older fairy tales.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly. And I think, you know, especially with the advent
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: of cartoons and so on, we don't want kids to be,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: you know, scared of violence is really bad. But I
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: think about a lot of cartoons that I watched at
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: the movie theater as a kid. And it was very
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: satisfying when Wile E. Coyote and Bugs Bunny was pretty violent.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: There were a lot, and it was very satisfying for, honestly,
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  Speaker 3: every kid that I ever knew, including myself.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: I can't remember the British essayist who wrote this. We
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be afraid to read our kids' fairy tales. Children
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: already know that dragons are real. Fairy tales teach them
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  Speaker 2: what to do about it.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, that's great.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: So little kids have dreams. They're pretending, Daddy, Daddy, I'm
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: going to shoot you. And you have to pretend that
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: you're dead. That's right, yes. So what are they enacting
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  Speaker 2: out of these primal archetypal themes?
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Exactly. They want to.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Be played out in ways that are safe. But these
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: themes of birth and death and gobbling up and, you know,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: and you can see grandma running after the kid. I'm
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: going to gobble you all up. And the kid's squealing.
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  Speaker 2: All that kind of play, mythic play.
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  Speaker 3: And we do that with kids. I'm going to gobble
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  Speaker 3: you up. Here I come. Here's the first toe. Here's
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: the second toe.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. The kids are laughing and squealing.
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  Speaker 3: How else do we make friends with and metabolize and
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: integrate these kinds of primal emotions, like you said about
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: the monster under the bed, the dragon, the bang, bang,
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: you're dead, oh, you know, fall down theatrically.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: The ghosts, yeah.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: That by playing with them, by symbolizing these experiences, and
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: if we clean it up too much, what we're doing
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: is making an exile out of all of these sort
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: of primal feelings of aggression, anger, defiance, fear. It's like, oh,
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  Speaker 3: it's too hot to handle. No, no, don't read that story.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: You know, don't let these cartoons be too violent, whereas
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: the encounter is what makes it safe.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Right. And the wisdom of fairy tales, quite frankly, is
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: do we contain these core instinctive powers in image, in story,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: in myth? Because the story gives us a place to
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: put it that wolves are the ones that are really
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: going after the pigs. So that's a way to visualize
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and imagine a wolf-like energy inside of the psyche. And
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: the wily pig, the shrewd pig that's able to figure
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: out how to handle the wolves of the world is
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: a kind of lesson that we can also need to
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: teach kids.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: You know, I want to go back to the beginning.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: begin at the very beginning, it's a very good place
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: to start. These pigs are kicked out. Mom kicks them out.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: There's not enough for them to eat. So off you
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: go out into the world.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Bye-bye.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Good luck. Seek your fortune. And many a tale starts
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: with that of our little kid hero or heroine tossed
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: out into the big wide world.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And the separation from the mother, the mother complex, as
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: well as the family. And of course, in the natural world,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: the little pigs have to fend for their own when
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: the mother pig weans them. But the sow doesn't produce
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: milk forever and ever. At a certain point, the milk
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: dries up and the baby pigs have to be able
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: to root around and find food, and eat solid food.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: So they have been weaned. The teat has dried up.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Natural instinct. You've got to go start rooting around for
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: what you need. The Great Mother cannot keep providing.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: You know, it's... I won't get the facts of this
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: quite right, but the great mother and the pig is
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: a great symbol of the great mother of Demeter or Ceres,
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: from which we get the word cereal. Her totem animal
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: was the pig. And a pig can go from being
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: a piglet to market weight of over 200 pounds in
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: something like six months. So there is something about pigs...
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: And how fast they grow, how easily they put on weight,
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: that is also sort of remarkable in this. And the
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: great mother sow says, it's time for your encounter with reality,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: little piglets. And one way or another, I think that's
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: a developmental task for all of us. And hopefully we
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: learn it bit by bit rather than in such a
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: drastic way as is symbolized in the tale. We have
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: all these little encounters of the tussle with somebody maybe
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: at nursery school or kindergarten or the kid who hoodwinks
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: you in school. I was hoodwinked by a kid who
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: wanted to be first in line and promised me He
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: gave me some story. If I would let him be
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: first in line to get into school, he'd let me
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: have a turn the next day. Well, of course he didn't.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: So there's a little story about what is reality, and
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: it's not fair, and that's not right, but you promised.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: But these pigs, it's all or nothing for them. It's
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: not little by little. You have to figure out how
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: to survive.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: And what's interesting is that the three little pigs already
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: have this instinct on how to build houses, which impresses
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: me no end. But the straw house, which really isn't
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: quite strong enough, is by accounts in the fairytale a
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: really beautiful house. Somehow these pigs are carpenters and house
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: builders and they instinctively know how to shelter themselves in
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: some way. Yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Well, of course, pigs are very smart. I mean, out
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: there in the external world, pigs are incredibly smart animals. So,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: of course, they bring to this house-building task their native intelligence,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: and we won't go into how they manage all this
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: with hooves. It is simply just so.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: That opposable thumbs. Yes.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Or tools, but here we go. What's straw? You know,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: straw is basically grass, is it not?
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. It is.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: It's lightweight. It comes from the earth. It's very flexible.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: You know, it would be easy to work with, to fashion,
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: to knot up or bind together or whatever. You could
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: get the job done pretty quickly. And isn't it interesting
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: that all it takes is to ask for it? You know,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: the little pig says, give it to me. And the
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: man says, oh, what nice manners you have.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: And this is the introduction of the masculine to the psyche.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: The pigs have known the mother. And then when they
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: go out into the world, they encounter the masculine. And
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: they have to have some kind of relationship. to the masculine,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: to at least try to build the first home.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: So there's something here about asking and receiving, that that's
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: all the pig has to do is ask, as if
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: behind it there is a kind of promise that the
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: world will be responsive to your need. If you know
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: what you want and you can ask for it with respect,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: you can have what you want. And the endeavor is
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: to build a house, to build a dwelling, which is
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: an effort of ego that we have to think about
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: this and where do we build it and how do
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: we kind of anchor it to the ground? Or do
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: we build a foundation? But all of this takes ego.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: It's not instinctive. And where we live is kind of,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: it symbolizes who we are. Yeah, we all know this
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: whenever we go into somebody's house of, what colors are
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: on the walls, what kind of art, what kind of furniture,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: that we want our house to look like, like the
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: me who lives there. And this pig, good with straw.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Big mistake.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about that comparison between the straw, the furs
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: or twigs, and the bricks. As often we will Take
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: a fairy tale and imagine that it's the dream of
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: someone in order to take a symbolic attitude. So these
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: three attempts in the psyche to build a home, a platform,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: perhaps an attitude that one can stand on and build
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: a life on. So the straw attitude is something that's ephemeral,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: although people did thatch their roofs with straw mostly. And
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: that worked for a good bit of time. Straw walls
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: are another matter of more difficulty, undoubtedly. But we can
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: imagine that the first attitude of the young person is
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: not strong enough to withstand the vicissitudes of life. And
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: when we think back to the attitudes that maybe we
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: had when we were, oh, I don't know, 15, 16
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: years old, we'd take a stance about one thing or another.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And that when that was challenged, maybe often they would
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: kind of collapse and we couldn't really defend our position
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: about the world or our position about why we have
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: to have something or we have to do something. It's
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: got to be this way or it's life or death.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: These straw houses, sometimes you have that term, a straw man.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, right.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: When people talk about arguments, it's the thing that, really
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: withstand very much at all. It's more representative. This is
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a house-like product, but it really won't function as a
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: buttress against the vicissitudes or challenges of life. Yeah.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: You know, I had sort of this memory from you know,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: a thousand years ago of, you know, that this was
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: a story about laziness of, oh, what a lazy little
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: pig to build a house of straw. But really looking
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: at this today, again, it's, and thinking about what you've
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: just said, it's just, he doesn't know any better. He
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: just doesn't know any better. He has to build a house.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: He sees a guy with straw. It's a little impulsive,
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: a little unreflective, but also just very, very young. And
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: then of course, there's Part of the fun of the
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: fairy tale is, you know, the wolf and the little pig,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: little pig, let me in, let me in. Not by
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: the hair of my chinny-chin-chin. You know, you can really
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: hear that sort of lip-smacking tone here of the aggression,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: the thing that wants to come in. And it's fun
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: for the child listening to the story, or the child
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: in every single one of us. And he huffed and
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: he puffed and he blew the house and he ate
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: up the little piggy.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Ha, ha, ha. So if I come back to, let's say,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: being 14, 15, 16 years old We build a house
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: of straw attitudes. And then somebody who's a little more
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: powerful in their mind, a little more determined, starts pressing
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: on us that, no, you shouldn't believe that. You should
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: believe this. Let me in. Let me be in charge.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I'm the one who knows what to do. And we
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: might as teenagers, for instance, say, no, listen, I'm my
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: own person. Then we find that our stance is not
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: strong enough and then we wind up getting swallowed by
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: something else, someone else's attitude, someone else's agenda, or perhaps
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: being swallowed by our instincts that we'd like to keep
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: the wolf away from the door. But we're young, just
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: as you were saying, and we don't really know how
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: to stand against the wolfishness inside of ourselves. And so
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: to be swallowed by the wolf, which is interesting because
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: in alchemy, there's an image of the wolf swallowing or
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: the lion swallowing the sun. So when the wolf or
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: the lion swallows, it means that the instincts have gobbled
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: up the ego and then the personality is acting in
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: these wolf-like, lion-like ways and has lost some ground about
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: being an individual. and being an ego.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I was just thinking about what's a wolf, and in alchemy,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: I think it's just primal instinct, primal hunger.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: And, of course, the wolf is a favorite character in
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: fairy tales, you know, as we know, especially in Little
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Red Riding Hood. It's unconstrained, raw appetite. And we still
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: talk about, you know, wolfing your food, the wolf in
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: sheep's clothing. It's the predator he wants to devour.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And that is in us as well.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: But it's interesting. The little pig who builds his house
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: of straw pays for his non-reflective, non-strategic outlook with a
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: creature that is equally non-reflective. It's not that the wolf
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: even sees the pig. He can smell him. And that
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: is the sensory faculty that we have that There's a
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: connection between nose to brain. It's just immediate. Smell pig,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: eat pig.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Our wolf has power, but he's not especially brainy. But
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: then we move on to the second pig, who... sees
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: a man carrying furs. I did not F-U-R-Z-E. I didn't
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: look it up, but it's sticks or twigs and does
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: the same thing. He just says, would you please just
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: give it to me to build a house? So once again,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: the world, the external world is accommodating. The masculine principle says, yes,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: I will help you in your ego building endeavor that
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: is symbolized by a house. And here's the material that
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: you have requested. And then what happens, Joseph? It's very sad.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Once again, life challenges the ego. The wolf smells the
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: little piglet in there. At first, it is also an
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: interesting thing. At first, there's a demand, let me in,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: let me in. Now, I'm not sure what would have
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: happened if the pig had let him in. But this
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: is also an interesting moment that often happens in nightmares,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: where there'll be a nightmare figure that represents some psychic
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: quality that we find really frightening and we don't know
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: how to have a relationship with, so we will often
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: run away or buttress against it. So often in fairy tales,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: and I had a dream very much like this once,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: where there was a pounding... on the door and it
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: was a dark and stormy night. And I come down
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: this long, extraordinary stairway to the front door and I
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: open it and there's this howling monster standing in the doorway.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: But I had opened the door. Let me in, let
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: me in. And it was a real initiation. I had
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: this revelation. creature was howling out of pain and I
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: began to weep out of compassion for the howling thing
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and it transformed into this kind of glorious angelic image
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: so sometimes opening the door could lead to something unprecedented
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: and a possible relationship but here this state of the
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: ego can't imagine any conscious relationship with its own wolfishness
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: that just isn't going to happen and as often happens
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: if we keep these unconscious contents away or our instincts
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: away then they will start threatening to overtake us and
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: gobble us up and so we have another iteration either
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: either you open that door and you meet me or
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: i'm gonna swallow you and there's endless examples of people
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: getting swallowed by their instincts.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: It's a great image of, in a way, the archetypal unconscious.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: And it's our job as we grow up, little by little,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: frustration by frustration, defeat by defeat. But the little ones,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: like my being hoodwinked by an older kid, of growing
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: ego strength and meeting those wolf-like characteristics of other people
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: or just the world in general. And we have to
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: build a barrier. And so our little pigs, that's what
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: they're trying to do, is keep the wolf part of
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: psyche out so that there is a defense, and it
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: doesn't work. The archetypal wolf energy comes in not through
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: the door, but just by blowing the whole thing over.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: I can imagine this whole thing like a tornado, just kablooey.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: It's over.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: And we see that again and again with kids who
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: have a meltdown. The toddler that has a meltdown, the
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: little kid that comes home from school because he scraped
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: his knee and is just in distress. The distress has
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: taken over. That barrier has gone down. But I'm thinking
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: just literally about sticks. At least sticks are sturdier than straw.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: They have the potential to become a tree if they
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: had been able to continue to grow. A wooden house
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: is a good thing. But here, too, the material is
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: not sturdy enough. It's not developed enough. It's basically kindling,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: I guess, but not strong enough.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: And there is a sense of progression, as you were saying.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: If we think of the fairy tale as a dream
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: happening in a single person's psyche, the straw house, the
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: inadequate clarity of the ego doesn't work, so it suffers
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: being gobbled up by the instincts. But it comes back
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: out and it's learned something by being swallowed. It said,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: you know, I need something stronger. I need something tougher
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: if I'm going to hold these instincts at bay. I
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: also want to say that this isn't just a child's issue.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I think about New Year's resolutions. New Year's resolutions are
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: built out of straw, generally speaking. You know, like, I'm
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: going to go to Weight Watchers, you know, starting on
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: January 2nd, and I'm going to lose 50 pounds. You know,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: and then we have this straw house that looks like,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: you know, counting points for Weight Watchers. And then all
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, somebody says, come on over for dinner.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: You know, and that's all it takes. You know, and
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: you are going to eat a half a gallon of
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: ice cream. And we're like, no, I won't, by the
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: hair of my chinny chin chin. And the next thing
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: we know, the wolf has swallowed us. And we've eaten
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: a half a gallon of ice cream, and we're watching
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: reruns of Friends, and we're like hating ourselves. Not that
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I've had that experience.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, I know. It was a hypothetical situation altogether.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Hypothetical. But the wolf blew your house down, man. Yeah.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: And that's it. That raw appetite of the wolf can
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: smell it. He smells it. And it's very analogous to
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: your situation of, I smell that delicious dinner, and I
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: would love to have seconds and then dessert. Absolutely. And
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: we cannot stand against some of those appetites.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Not until something else needs to happen.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I ate 8,000 calories last night.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: But that's such a good point. We can't stand against
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: it with just a good intention or a New Year's resolution.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Something else needs to be there to stand against it.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: And as an aside, in terms of success with things
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: like diet, but also quitting smoking and other things, that
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the longer people stay with the attempt, the more likely
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: it is that they will eventually succeed. So there is
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: something about, I go on the first diet, it's like straw.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: And then a year later, I go on the diet again.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I'm a little more successful. It's furs and twigs that
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: I built the house out of. But still, there I am,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: eating a gallon of ice cream a night. And then
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: the third or whatever mythic third time, something in the
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: ego is strengthened even through each failure.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's really perfect. And if we think
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: of this like a dream, you know, then every pig
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: is the same pig or the image of building ego strength.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: And I know there are studies about cigarette cessation, smoking cessation,
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: that persistence pays off. Just like you're saying of first
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: time straw, second time twigs, but third time bricks, right?
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Bricks and and the story changes a little bit because
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: um the pig says if you please sir could you
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: give me those bricks to build me a house and
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: the man seeing that he had been well brought up
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: gives him the bricks see in other things he has
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: good manners he's polite but the third iteration It has
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: something to do with this developmental strength that's inferred in
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: the fairy tale. That there's something sturdy in how you
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: were brought up. So you get the bricks. That just
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: being polite or just being nice isn't quite enough muscle.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: So there's something about that stance that's implied of intention and,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: as you said, a sturdiness. I also am thinking about
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: bricks symbolically as a great combination of the natural substance
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: of mud or clay. It comes from the earth like straw,
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: like twigs, but you have to render it. the clay.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: You have to shape it and you have to bake it.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: And that that's the alchemical process of calcinatio, the hardening,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: the fire, the ego effort that takes it and renders
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: it and cooks it into something hard.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I like that, that the two other iterations of suffering
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: through getting eaten up has somehow given the ego, just
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: as you said, this capacity to hold heat, to hold fire,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: and to put it to good use, as you said,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: making bricks, so that the ego really has a structure.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: And for the ego to have a really nice muscular
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: structure means that we don't have half-baked ideas that we
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: actually have, right? We have Full-baked ideas, which suggest I've
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: really actually thought about this. Half-baked ideas are like furs
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and straw. They don't really stand up to pressure or scrutiny.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: But when we're full-baked, it's like, I know what I know.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And it actually makes sense. And I can stand in
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: what I know and what I've experienced. Stand in the
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: choices that I'm making consciously. So as you said, This
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: little pig has baked bricks, and they serve him very well.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I like what you said. I'm underlining it. They
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: can hold the heat, and we have to be able
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: to hold the heat of our emotions, not get carried
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: away with impulsivity or reactivity of any kind, but I'm
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: going to hold the heat. I'm going to make these bricks.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: I'm going to fire them. There's a process, a methodology,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: and the fortitude to see this through. There's a beginning
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: and a middle and an end, and that's what our
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: pig does. So that should be the end of the
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: story of he builds his brick house. The wolf can't
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: blow it in, but it's not. Part two is forthcoming.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Part two, which is to really think about it. It becomes,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: to me, much more interesting because the ability to contain
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: the wolf instinct brings forward a much more sophisticated relationship
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: with the wolf. The pig and the wolf now are
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: having a dialogue. doesn't happen the first few times. The
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: third pig is like, I can talk, I can negotiate.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: He's getting some wisdom from the wolf. Like, I didn't
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: realize there were turnips in the field down the road.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, instinctive self. I'm going to make
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: good use of that. So there is something about the
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: muscular ego and the ability now to to get something
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: from the instincts that the pig can really use.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It really elevates the battle from just raw power.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: All the wolf has to do is huff and puff,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: and the structure stands or falls, the pig gets eaten
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: or not. So now we have a battle of wits.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: So ego development is moving right on up the scale
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: that the wolf is going to try to trick the pig.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: Turnips down the road, you know. And the pig says, oh, good.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: And he agrees. to meet the wolf, but of course
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: that's his strategy. He has no intention of doing so.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: So this battle of wits is a great developmental stage
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: of the first time that you have lied to somebody,
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: the first time you've tried to outsmart somebody, of I
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: don't have to give you a shove and push you down,
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: I don't have to hit you, I can outsmart you.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: It's a much more sophisticated ego level of battle, of contest.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: And this theme shows up in many fairy tales where
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: the thing that's dangerous becomes the thing that's useful. I
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: think about that Grimm's fairy tale of the spirit in
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the bottle where the young person opens up a bottle
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: that he finds in the crux of a tree, this devilish,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: incredibly murderous thing comes out of the bottle. He tricks
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: it to go back in, and then he cuts a deal.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: And the spirit comes back out of the bottle and
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: is able to provide important help to the hero. So here,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: there is this new relationship where the ego is not
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: overwhelmed by And the wolf is also giving good information. Oh,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: there's turnips over here. There's apples over there. There's stuff
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: that the wolf can smell out that the ego now
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: has access to without the destructive part of it. But again,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: being really conscious and respectful of the danger of that
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: instinctive self. that the pig doesn't lose sight of who
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: he's dealing with.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: So our story keeps moving along, and the pig has
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: access to the turnips, but then the wolf catches on. Oops,
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: pig's getting up before me. This time I'll be the
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: one to get up even earlier. And then we have
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: the little episode with the butter churn of our pig
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: goes off to the fair. And of all the things
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: to buy, he buys a butter churn. And there's a
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: whole thing in alchemy about churning. And this patient process,
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: it's almost like making bricks. Got to go and get
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: the clay and shape it and bake it and so on.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: But the churning just goes around and around. It's not
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: a linear process. It's a slow and patient kind of,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: we would call it a circumambulation of just going around
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: and around to render cream into butter. And we have
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: all kinds of speech metaphors about churning. Something's really churning inside.
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: I can see it going. And I've seen, probably we
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: all have, movie images of some woman patiently sitting in
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: a kind of contemplative state, just churning the butter or
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: the cream. And it has to be contained. So we
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: have the image of a container. Otherwise, the liquid will
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: spill out all over everywhere. So it's an interesting thing
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: that this is his... desired purchase from the fair is
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: a churn that basically clobbers the wolf. So he sees
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: a wolf coming, jumps in the churn, and rolls down
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: the hill.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm really tasking myself with imagining or psychologizing a
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: little bit more about the butter churn. So one thread
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: that my associations go to is the story begins where
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: the great sow basically says, I have no more milk.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: The teats are dry. Now it's time to be weaned.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: You must go and eat solid food and find it.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: But here, somehow the third pig, as it continues to
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: grow wiser, more shrewd, more successful, that he returns to
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: the milk. But here, the ego is not going to
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: depend upon the mother principle, but the ego is realizing, well,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: I can provide that some of the comforts and the
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: goodness of the mother principle, because he was well raised,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: that he is able to access some of the good
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: things that the mother has shown him, and he can
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: learn how to take the milk and make it into
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: something that he wants, something that's delicious and useful and
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: also can be stored, by the way, without souring.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: So I like that return to the milkiness.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. And here we have a real defeat,
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: in a way, for the wolf. The wolf says, hey, look,
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: I'm so sorry I couldn't meet you because this thing...
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: meaning the butter churn. An awful, dreadful, terrible thing had
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: rushed at him, making a fearsome noise. So the instinctual
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: part of the self of our wolf doesn't know what
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: to make of this. He has no way to recognize
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: it's a butter churn or even just a round thing
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: rolling down the hill. This is way outside the wolf's
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: parameters of comprehension. It was monstrous. So wit has won.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: And the good news about this instinctual power that the
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: wolf has is it's not all that smart.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: And I love that the third pig owns his own
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: potency when he says, well, that was me. I'm so
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: sorry that I frightened you. So now there is this
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: real change of energy that, Or as often happens in dreams,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: that the dream ego receives part of what the other
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: image held. So for instance, sometimes a dream figure will
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: come to you in a dream and maybe it's a
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: person who really wants to fight you and they're really aggressive.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: And then as this image is interacting with the dream ego,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: the dream ego starts getting really aggressive and angry.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: So it's as if the energy that was stored in
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: the dream image gets transferred into the ego and it
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: has a sense of that quality of libido. So what's
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: really wonderful here is that all of the capacity to
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: frighten was in the wolf. But now through the interactions,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: the pig now has a capacity to frighten as well.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: It has a bit more wolf in him.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: Yes. Isn't that great? This is such a great story
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: of ego development. And you have to appreciate the sarcasm
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: of the pig. It's like, oh, it just started to
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: roll and I couldn't help it. And I'm so sorry.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: Were you scared?
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Passive aggressive piglet.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: It's really, really great. And then the wolf loses it.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: He danced about with rage, swore he'd come down the chimney,
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: eat the little pig, and then the final victory of
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: the pig says, hey, good, wonderful, great, you want to
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: come down the chimney? I'll put the pot on with
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: boiling water so that that's where you land when you
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: come down the chimney. And it's the final flip of
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: the wolf has eaten two pigs and now the pig
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: gets to eat the wolf.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, that the full measure of wolfishness is now in
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: the pig. That he becomes the one who eats. He
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: becomes the one who can be frightening. He becomes the
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: one who is shrewd and tricky and can seize opportunities.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: So in the end, I'm imagining that as the pig
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: is eating the wolf, that this is an ego that
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: has integrated an enormous amount of its own instinctive shadow.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: And this pig is going to be someone to really
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: deal with. This pig is going to run for mayor.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: It's going to start a factory. This pig is going
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: to take the world by storm.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: Yes. And it's a gloriously satisfying ending, just in that
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: way of rubbing your hands together, yeah, gotcha, of an
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: affirmation of the aggression of that it takes to run
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: for mayor and start a factory of, yes, you can
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: get out in the world and you can exert your
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: will and make things happen. It's really a wonderful tale
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: that is so satisfying about developing ego strength, getting out
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: in the world, and doing the things you want to do.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: And the things that we fear... are often the things
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: that we need. And I think many analysts have said this.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: James Hillman has said this many times in his writing.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: The thing that is absolutely the most frightening thing often
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: is where the gold is hidden. And so we're kids
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: and we're just terrified of writing. It's often because we
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: have a destiny to be a writer. And the destiny
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: is so intense and so overwhelming. That when we're young,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: it feels like it's a terrible thing that's pursuing us
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: and we flee. So the thing that we fear, the
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: thing that we are most defending against is often the
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: place where what we need is absolutely stored.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to reiterate what I said before. Not
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: only is it important and worthwhile to Of facing down
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: your wolves and building a house. But it's so satisfying.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is. It's very satisfying. So maybe that's a
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: good time for us to turn to a dream. Stay
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: with me for just a brief moment. I hope today's
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: topic resonates with you. And if you're finding value in
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: our conversations and wish to support our community together, here's
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: how you can help us grow and reach more curious minds. First,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: if you're tuning in on YouTube, please take a moment
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: to subscribe to our channel. It's a simple click for you,
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: but a tremendous support for us. And if you're listening
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, a quick like goes a long way
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: in helping us reach others who might benefit from these topics.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: If you're inclined to support us further, and I hope
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: you are, become our patron on Patreon. Your contribution helps
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: us keep the lights on, which is more than a
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: metaphor for consciousness, by the way. Also, don't forget to
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. It's a great
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: way to stay connected, get updates, and join a community
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: of like-minded individuals Your support means the world to us.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: It helps keep this Jungian life running along. Thank you
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: for being part of our community. Our dream was submitted
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: by a listener who is a 30-year-old female, and she
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: works as as a long-term care assistant, and she is
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: training to be a death doula. And here's her dream.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: I was at my childhood cottage, and there were quite
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: a few people there, including my family and some strangers.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: An unknown young couple came across the lake on a
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: tandem bicycle, and I was mystified as how they had
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: ridden a bicycle on water. The most vivid part of
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: the dream was when I was up on the deck
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: of the cottage and from up high I could see
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: a pink piglet scooting along the bottom of the shallow
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: lake trying to reach the shore. I ran down to
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: the water, jumped in, and the piglet reached out to me,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: which I felt deeply touched by. I pulled it out
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: of the water and it was shocked to see that
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: its whole chest and belly were slit clean open down
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: the middle. There was no blood, and suddenly I realized
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: it was some kind of animatronic pig. I could see
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: some of the metal parts inside. I just didn't want
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: to believe it, and I felt so disappointed, or even
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: betrayed for some reason. Maybe because I had already felt
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: such an emotional connection while saving the piglet. I walked
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: towards the cottage with the piglet, and the dream ended,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I woke up. The dreamer adds as context, There are
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: just now, settling down after several months of big changes,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: moving across the country, a new job in a new field,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: living alone for the first time, completing my death doula apprenticeship, etc.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: She writes the main feelings in the dream were fear, sadness, confusion, disappointment,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: and insecurity. And she adds a bit more explanation. The
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: dream also featured an ex who left with his wife
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: near the beginning of the dream. I had a secret
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: and extremely difficult relationship with him that is still affecting
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: me a lot. My recent move brought me back into
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: proximity with him, and that has brought up old patterns,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: and deep wounds. So just for context, I just happen
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: to know what a death doula is.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: So there is a field that is emerging of people
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: who are very interested in how to create a certain
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: context and atmosphere around people who are in the active
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: dying process. And so people who are interested in this
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: will often find various opportunities to be mentored. It's almost
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: like an aspect of hospice, although it's not rather official.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: So a death doula might literally come to the bedside,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: educate the family on what to expect if they wish
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: to be present during the active dying of someone. They
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: might arrange music. They might arrange other things in the
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: environment to create a quality of peace and presence. And
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: it is fundamentally founded on the idea that the active
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: dying process of the individual is sacred, should not be avoided,
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: and is something that is deeply and powerfully important to
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: the person who is dying. rather than simply escaping, as
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: we often do in the Western world, and being frightened,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: the death doulas, like midwives, lean in to try to
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: hold the psyche of the person who is preparing to die.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: That's really helpful and lifts up for me one of
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: the themes of the dream about crossing. that a death
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: doula helps someone cross over, cross from living into dying,
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: and into the unknown. You know, then what? Well, we
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: don't really, we don't know. But it's a crossing, and
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: in the dreams, We have crossings. There are people that
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: have crossed the lake on a tandem bicycle. And then
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: there is this piglet that is also crossing, but this
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: piglet is crossing under the water. And we have in
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: external world waking life, there is the crossing that the
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: dreamer herself has just made of moving across the country
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: to a new job and back in proximity with her ex-boyfriend.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of transition going on at every level.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: I really love how you highlighted the idea of the
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: crossing because that is so powerful and so substantive in
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: this dreamer's life in so many different ways I think
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: that's just a perfect stance for the dream so she's
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: at her childhood cottage and there's lots of people there
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: family and strangers. So I often imagine that when people
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: are starting the dream in a setting like the family cottage,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I'm imagining that the dream is somehow working on the
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: family complex or working on the child complex in some fashion,
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: trying to make some progress around it. And from within
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: the context of the child complex, a mysterious unknown couple
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: on a tandem bicycle have this paranormal ability to just
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: ride across the water. So a tandem bicycle, for those
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: who are not familiar, you don't see them that frequently,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: but they are basically two bicycles that have been, I guess,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: merged together. So two people... can sit on this one structure,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: one in the front managing the handlebars and one in
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: the back kind of just stabilized. And both of them
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: are pedaling on the same chain. So there's four legs
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: moving the rear wheel forward and people have a chance
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: to be close to each other and in the same
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: kind of unified, coordinated effort.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: It's a great image of two, of two-ness, the bicycle
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: built for two. You'll look sweet upon the seat of
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: a bicycle built for two. And I'm putting that together
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: with the comment in explanations of her ex-boyfriend has a wife.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: And it says the dream also featured the ex who
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: left with his wife. near the beginning of the dream.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: She had a secret relationship. So it's interesting that that's
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: not in the dream. It's in the explanation of the
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: vanished twosome, the ex and his wife, and then this
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: magical bicycle built for two riding on top of the
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: water of people coming across the lake.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: One of the things I'm picking up just from your
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: associations around the crossing, that part of the death doula
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: process is to be in tandem with someone as they
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: are crossing. So it's also an image that kind of
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: works for that, that she and the person who is dying,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: I imagine it's perhaps sitting in the front seat, are
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: both working in tandem to move to the next shore successfully.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: And in that way, it's a rather wonderful glimpse at
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: a symbolic or metaphoric way of looking at it.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: So it's interesting, the juxtaposition of connection and separation, that
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: the death doula is there with or in tandem with
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: the person who is dying. And the goal is separation.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That once the other shore is reached, the person
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: dying is on their own there in the next journey.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: And I think that's being played out here that there's
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: this magical bicycle that can be ridden on water. And
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: then we have this mysterious pink piglet running along the
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: bottom of the lake. The piglet reaches out and our
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: dream ego feels deeply touched and Then she sees its
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: chest and belly slit open but no blood, and then
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: she realizes it's really a mechanical, it's not a living creature.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I can pronounce animatronic. Okay, I managed.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Okay. There you go.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: So there's the disappointment of hoping for the connection with
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: the living thing and the instinct and the passion to
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: reach out to save it. And, of course, that can't
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: happen because it's not a living thing. So our dream
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: ego winds up alone and disappointed by the thing that
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: looked like it had life but does not.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: So there's something on the surface of the water, which...
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: is visible and miraculous. And then there's something mysterious under
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: the water or deeper in the unconscious, which is also
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: moving towards the shore, much like the bicycle. I have
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: this fantasy that they're kind of keeping pace with the other,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: that the bicycle's kind of on top and the little
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: piglet is right under it, on the ground. It's not
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: in the dream, but it's how I want to organize it.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: But the piglet is the thing that looks like it's
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: at risk. They're doing fine on the bicycle. She's not
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: worried about them drowning, for instance. But the thought that
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: a live piglet is drowning, ostensibly, and she's rushing in
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: to save what she thinks is at risk to help it,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: even though it might seem to be reaching out to
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: her in need, it's actually simply a machine that's kind
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: of moving along. So we could say it's something about
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: a need for greater discrimination. How does one discriminate a
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: living thing from something that is not living, even if
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: they somehow look the same? Where is her compassion rightly centered,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: and where is her compassion perhaps something that's more about sentimentality,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: that it's almost that something has kind of tricked her
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: into being worried that something is suffering, which of course
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: isn't suffering. So there's discernment is somehow being evoked here.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: I'm going back to maybe the impetus, the urge, the
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: dedication to connection. And then against all odds, I mean,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: of course, a pig... cannot run across the bottom of
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: a lake that's filled with water.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: And I'm putting this together with being a death doula.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: On the one hand, you connect with the person who's dying,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: but on the other, you let them go. But it
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: feels like in this dream, the energy is all about
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: connecting and that it's important to connect with this pig.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: There's no other position here. And it's not real any
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: more than riding a bicycle on water is real. But
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: the urge to connect is so powerful. And I wonder about,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: you know, as you often call it, the medicine in
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: the dream, that the medicine in the dream may be
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: the disappointment that this thing has a slit in its
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: belly and there's no blood and it's awful and it's
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: not even alive. And what in our dreamer's life is
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: no longer alive that she nevertheless reaches out to and
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: hopes to connect with?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: So this could be the relationship perhaps with that fellow
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: that she's still trying to sort out what it meant
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: to her and how it's affecting her now that she's
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: back in the physical proximity. That the piglet in that
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: way could be the kind of repetitive almost mechanical way
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: that certain memories will run over and over again like
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: a perseverating machine over and over again but may not
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: actually have a true life of their own but are
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: really just kind of movie scripts we were just running
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: over and over again i think i'm taken with the
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: idea of the death doula i have a friend who
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: does this work so it it I prioritize this in
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: my psyche. But if I were also to think about
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: that there is this lifeless machine that's just kind of
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: scurrying along at the bottom of the water, which evokes
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of compassion, but there's something on the top
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: that's miraculously in the tandem bike moving above the water.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: I wonder if this is a way that the psyche
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: is trying to help her organize an attitude about the dying.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: For many death doulas, there really is a clear sense
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: that the body is a kind of machine which is
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: running down, which is breaking down, and that there is
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: a spirit, there is the consciousness inside that is vibrant
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: and alive and on the move that is getting ready
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: to leave the machine of the body and go on
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: its own journey. So I'm imagining this having worked in
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: a hospital to see the body go through the active
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: dying process. It's very difficult to separate out what the
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: body is doing and what it needs versus what consciousness
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: may be experiencing. And so this separation in the dream
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: of the mechanics of the form versus the life the
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: tandem life on the surface of the water that is
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: basically flying it's you know it's able to float above
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: things and that when she puts her compassion into saving
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: the mechanics of the body that there's and she feels
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: like she's kind of missed something that that her prioritization
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: of the machine of the body might be misplaced and
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: that it might have been more fruitful for her to
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: be more curious about the spirit on the tandem bike
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: that is on a journey across the surface of the water.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: I think, in a way, this dream is all about
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: where is the life? Mm-hmm. It's not on the bottom
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: of the lake with the mechanical piglet. Not sure about
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: the tandem bike. My guess would be something off there
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: that it's on the surface of the water. There is
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: life in the work around helping someone die for her.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: And where is the life in her new life of
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: the geographic move? Where's the life? And as you said before,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: the question of discernment, which is always a question for
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: all of us about all kinds of things.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: So now she looks from the high place in the
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: cottage from on top. She has this broader perspective, so
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of information from the skybox, as you say, Deb.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: And having all that information, it's still a challenge to
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: know As you said, what's the priority among the many
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: things that I'm able to see from the objective position?
• 1:11:56
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  Speaker 1: living this Jungian life.