Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #85: Interview with Kim Charlson, Global Inclusion And Accessibility Advocate For The Disability Community

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #85: Interview with Kim Charlson, Global Inclusion And Accessibility Advocate For The Disability Community · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to
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her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
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insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills and expertise in access, technology and information.
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As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who
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sees the world mainly through sound touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
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I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
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accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones.
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And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
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Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
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where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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It is my pleasure. It is my privilege and my honor to welcome Kim Charlson to our show
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today. Welcome, Kim.
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Kim Charlson: Thank you so much, Donna.
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I'm really honored to be here and to be one of your special guests.
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I've listened to your podcast quite often and you have some really incredible folks working
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on all aspects of advocacy, and I'm honored to be considered in that
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group. So thank you again.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you again. So let's start at the beginning.
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What first drew you toward libraries, Braille and accessible information work,
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and how did your early life experiences shape the path that you eventually built?
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Kim Charlson: So that's a big question and I'll try to do it quickly.
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I'll take your time. So I was born sighted.
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I lost my vision when I was around 11 years old due to complications of glaucoma.
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Oh, okay. Most of I had some usable vision for a little bit,
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but pretty much lost all of it and became totally blind in my 20s,
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so my parents got my diagnosis early.
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They were thoughtful. My ophthalmologist was thoughtful and said to them,
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you need to get her to an educational program where she can learn Braille.
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She can learn the skills to become a blind person and an adult who will be able to work
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and do whatever she wants to do in her life.
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And so my parents went to find a school for the blind that they were comfortable with on
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the west coast of the United States, where I grew up in Oregon.
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Right. And I went to the Oregon School for the blind for five years between like fourth
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grade and ninth grade.
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And learn Braille, learned cane travel, learned adaptive things.
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Then in 10th grade, I went to public school at my local community high school and was
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able to engage and participate and then on to college.
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So that in when I was growing up, I had the luxury of living in the same town
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where our Braille and talking book library was located for the state of Oregon,
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so I would. And it was only a few blocks away from the school for the blind,
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which was nice. And I would go there a lot and spend a lot of time in the stacks,
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just browsing Braille books and looking at those Braille books and picking them.
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And, you know, I had a dream that I was going to read every book in the library, which a
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lot of kids think they could do.
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And not, not very easy to do that because one thing libraries do is they keep growing.
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So there's more and more and more and more so.
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Right. But you know, I always loved books.
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So in high school, college, I also was bitten with the advocacy bug and
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which I consider a great illness to have.
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Advocacy is so important in the work we do.
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And it became one of my passions to, to work on,
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you know, disability justice, social justice,
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make sure that things were equitable to our society and make sure that those kinds of
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things could be available and accessible to us.
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So I I had plans to become an attorney, but when I got to my senior year in
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college, I sort of got that itis that many seniors get where they just kind of go,
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oh my God, I don't think I can go back to college for three more years to become an
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attorney. So I said, I'm going to get a job and think about what I want to do when I grow
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up. I applied for two jobs.
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One was in a real estate office.
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The second one was at the Braille and Talking Book library,
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and I got hired at the Braille and Talking Book Library to train Braille transcribers
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and and volunteer narrators to record books.
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And that's how I started my career in library and information science.
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And so I really became an advocate there for access to information,
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how we could make information more accessible for people.
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And that after working in that role for a few years,
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I said, you know, I'd really like to become a manager in Braille and talking book library
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somewhere in the United States.
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And but I won't be able to do that unless I get an advanced degree in library science.
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So one day I came back to my desk and there was this application package for students
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with disabilities who want to enter into the career of library science.
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And I thought, well, you can't get more targeted than me,
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and that's what I want to do.
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So I applied for the fellowship and I won.
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Well, I didn't know was to accept the fellowship.
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I had to go to the University of North Texas in Denton,
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Texas. So I left my job.
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I took a leave of absence from the library.
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I went to Texas. I left my husband at home dodging bill collectors and trying to,
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you know, keep, keep the, the house and home safe.
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And I went and got my degree in library science,
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my master's degree in library science.
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And I was one of the first totally blind people in the United States to get a degree
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in library science because prior to the the late 1980s,
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when I went to grad school, libraries were not very friendly places for
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blind people. Everything was paper print books,
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card catalogues. But in the 1980s, we started to automate libraries.
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We started to get rid of card catalogs and have online catalogs instead,
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and processes became much more accessible so that I could do cataloging,
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which isn't my favorite thing. But librarians need to know how to catalog.
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So I would, I would much rather be a manager and build programs and services,
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but there was an article written about me being sort of a pioneer into a field that had
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not been very blind friendly prior to the advent of automation in libraries and the
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Perkins School for the blind.
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Read the article and they had a position for a an assistant director of library services,
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and they asked me to apply for the job, and I did,
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and I got the job and I worked and I moved to Massachusetts.
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Oh my gosh. And my husband came along and and we love Massachusetts.
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I'm so happy here. I have I am in my 41st year of working for Perkins,
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so. Oh my Lord, I have been here a long time.
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I have been the director of our library here for 24 years and have grown the library to be
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more than just a national library service for the Blind and disabled State Library.
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We, we love the NLS program and the Library of Congress.
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And that's the basis for everything we do.
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But I also believe that there are other services that people should have available to
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them. And we've grown those other services as well.
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So as an example, we have a fairly extensive audio described movie collection about 2000
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titles on DVD that can be loaned out to our borrowers.
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We have a recording studio where we record local interest titles that are not provided
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by the Library of Congress.
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We have a Braille production department where we do fee for service,
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work for the community, and also add books to our collection and
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produce documents for other departments at Perkins that don't have Braille production
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capability within their staff.
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We loan technology. We have a couple new programs now that are library of things.
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Which library of things are.
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Items you can loan that would be useful and people don't know if they want to buy it
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until they check it out.
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So public libraries in the US have libraries of things.
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So they might be musical instruments or a sander.
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If you wanted to sand your deck or a drill because you have a maintenance project,
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but you don't want to go out to Home Depot and buy a sander or a drill for one project.
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You can borrow it from your local public library here.
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So we have an assistive technology library of things where we loan out relatively
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inexpensive devices that people may not have been able to check out or haven't had a
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chance to put their hands on it.
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And one of my favorite popular things in our collection is a talking am FM radio.
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Borrowers tend to love it and it speaks all the frequencies like,
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you know, 106.9, 106.8.
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So if you're looking for a number on the FM or AM dial,
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you can find it, you can tune it in yourself.
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And all the buttons are labeled and all the functions.
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So you can switch from am FM and we have talking blood pressure cuff,
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some of the medical type accessible devices people want to try before they think of
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getting one for their for themselves because things range from under $10 to about $150,
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might be the most expensive thing in our library of things.
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And then we have a demo center, which has the more expensive devices that
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people want to touch and look at.
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You have to make an appointment and come and see us for the expensive devices.
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We don't loan those out because something like a walk cane,
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that is, you know, the new cane that has GPS inside and a speaker.
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Yeah, that's about an $800 cane.
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We're not going to loan that out to somebody.
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No, but they can come.
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So just, you know, being able to build those kinds of opportunities and give people access
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to things is really, really important to me.
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And, and kind of being a visionary and growing our library is something that I find
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very satisfying. And our patrons are happy.
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They love the kinds of programs we have available.
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And that's really what it was all about.
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I do you know, I'm a I'm a library director by day and my avocation,
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as I say, is advocacy and system change, because I really,
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really like to work toward system change and fixing the bigger problem.
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I'll work with one on one to help somebody get through a problem.
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But it's fixing the problem for everybody that really jazzes me.
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I like to make that kind of system change.
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That is so important in our advocacy work.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is really impressive.
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And you know, when I look at your career, one of the most remarkable things is your
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long service at Perkins.
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What do you remember most about joining the Perkins Library program in the mid 1980s.
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And what convinced you that this was where you could make a lasting difference?
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Kim Charlson: Well, I knew I wanted to have the opportunity to be in management in a library for the
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blind in the United States.
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And at the time I made that career choice, there were no people who were blind that were
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working in the network, leading the there libraries.
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There was no managers or directors.
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There were staff, certainly, who were blind,
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but there were no managers.
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So I'm happy to say today there are five blind people who are directors of libraries
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within the United States.
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And I'm really, really proud just to to know that,
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you know, that barrier has come down, that blind people can do this job and have
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shown they can do this job because of technology and because of,
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you know, the opportunities that are out there and the possibilities.
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So I've also made it a point in my career to try to mentor and bring other qualified blind
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individuals and people with disabilities into library work.
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So I have seven staff.
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That of my total staff is 29 individuals seven of whom are blind or have low vision,
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including my deputy director.
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He is low vision and supervises, you know, a good portion of our team as well.
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So I have a Braille transcriber, I have an assistive tech manager,
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I have an outreach person.
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I have people that work in my duplication and shipping department all throughout the
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organization. I have qualified individuals who are blind working for me.
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And I always tell them that I have very high expectations.
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So they better not disappoint me because if I if I identified you as somebody that I think
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I would like to work for our library.
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I don't want you to disappoint me.
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So. Right. You know, I work just as hard as I expect any of them to work as well.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
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Kim Charlson: Yeah. But it's been it's been really satisfying.
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I never, ever expected you know, I thought, oh,
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maybe I'll work here 10 or 15 years and then I'll move on.
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Right. But I decided, you know, I've had opportunities to move on.
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And I said, you know, I just feel like I'm in such a good place
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because I can shape the program.
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If I want to start a pilot program doing something,
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I can start a pilot program doing something.
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I don't have three layers of administration over my head.
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I just have the the CEO of Perkins to report to and tell him about,
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you know, whatever I'm thinking of doing.
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And as long as I have, the budget could cover the expenses for doing
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what I'm thinking, I want to do the.
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The directors of Perkins have always been supportive of the things that I come up with
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to try.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So that is great. I mean, it sounds like the ideal job,
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right? Like the perfect job.
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Kim Charlson: Well, exactly. Which is exactly why I've been here 41 years,
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because I can, you know, I can make my path.
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I can I don't have to get that approval from all kinds of different levels of
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administration. I can start a pilot program, I can test equipment and do all that.
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And it just is so much more satisfying than fighting an administrative bureaucracy that I
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might have had to do if I had gone with other opportunities that had come my way.
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So I'm really happy and satisfied with what I do and the impact that I know I've been able
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to make. On information access for the borrowers here at the Perkins Braille and
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Talking Book Library.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you have led the Perkins Braille and Talking Book library for many years.
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From my perspective, as someone who is also blind,
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accessible reading can be life changing.
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I know all about that.
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How do you describe the true mission of that library beyond simply lending books?
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Kim Charlson: It's a wonderful question.
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I have the pleasure so many times in a given week of talking to patrons who are calling
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our library and, you know, want to get some more books.
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And they will often say, my books are my lifeline.
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Yes. And I hear that so often, and I understand it completely,
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that getting their talking books just means so much.
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People will often say, you know, I don't sleep well at night.
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So my, my books are my friends and they keep me company.
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And I just want to be sure I have lots of books to read all the time.
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So, you know, having services where we can download books as well as get them through
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the mail. Not everybody is going to have the technological skills to download their own
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books. And they rely on us to send them talking books through the mail and we do
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that, but it's, it is satisfying to be able to talk to people every day who think the
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service you provide is so amazing and so wonderful,
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and they're just so pleased.
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And tell us just, you know, your angels, you help us.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's so good.
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Kim Charlson: You know, I can't get much more positive kudos from,
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you know, it's just great to hear the appreciation that people have and knowing
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that I'm it. I value the fact that what I want to do,
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especially with my outreach programs, the staff I have who do outreach,
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go out into the community to tell potential people who could be eligible for our services
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about the program. One of the things I hear from new applicants is I thought my days of
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reading were over, and I am so happy now to know that I don't have to give up reading.
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They often reference that to the newspaper and having to give up the newspaper.
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And, you know, we have a program through our library and and throughout the whole United
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States where we have Newsline, which is a service that is has been developed
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by the National Federation of the blind and under contract.
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I pay for that service for Massachusetts.
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And we've got over 4000 people that use it every day to listen to our local papers,
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listen to The New York Times.
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There's international papers.
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The Toronto Paper is available to us.
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Just so many different resources.
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And people will just so often say that they thought they wouldn't ever be able to read
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again, and that the program means so much to them because they can read a best seller and
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talk about it with their family, or they can read a nonfiction book,
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read a cookbook, and all those different things that just make so much difference to
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us. Those who know firsthand because of blindness or low vision,
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how important it is to have accessible information available to us.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you are these services just available to the state of Massachusetts,
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the, you know, In across the United States.
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Is it available to Canadians?
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Kim Charlson: It is not available because all of our funding is tied to the fact that the
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individual needs to be a citizen or they need to be a resident in,
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in my case, a resident of Massachusetts.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
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Kim Charlson: So one of the advocacy things I worked on with a lot of other people all over the globe
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was the Marrakesh Treaty for the blind and visually impaired and disabled.
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And that is the closest way to get access to a lot of the audio and Braille materials that
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are available through the Library of Congress program,
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because they do contribute pretty heavily English language titles,
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Spanish language titles.
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Those are the two primary languages we produce in the US.
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And those go into the global book service that Canada has access to and can get those.
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So it isn't it isn't a direct service, but at least some of the materials that we
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are producing in the US can be made available through through Sila or other localized
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libraries throughout Canada that blind and low vision people utilize for their reading
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materials.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Over the decades, you have seen accessible library services
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evolve from more traditional formats into a much broader digital landscape.
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What changes have been the most transformative for blind,
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low vision and deaf blind readers during your career?
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Kim Charlson: So when I started my career back in Oregon, nothing was digital,
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So I was actually training people to learn how to transcribe Braille with Braille
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writer.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no.
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Kim Charlson: And I was teaching individuals to narrate talking books with a tape recorder,
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sometimes in their kitchen.
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And we all have had that experience of getting something recorded in college or yes,
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a newsletter that sounds like, you know, the dogs are barking in the
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background and the airplanes are flying by and the lawnmower next door.
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And yes, oh my gosh, it was, it was painful sometimes what the end product
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might be because people were just recording things in their house.
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And when I had the opportunity to, to set up and establish my first recording
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studio that actually had a digital sound booth and,
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you know, special computerized recording equipment,
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I was so happy because the quality just took such a leap that it sounded so much better.
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And, you know, I wanted to have high quality recordings.
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I didn't want dogs barking and lawnmowers and things like that anymore.
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And so that was, that was a huge step.
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And then when we actually went from analog recordings to digital recordings,
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that was even better because then besides making it easier to correct the titles and
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fix them and really have high quality professionally narrated recordings from our
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studio, we were also able to then easily share those digital files and make them
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available on a download service, where individuals who are blind could
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actually download any pretty much anything they wanted from the library when they wanted
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it, instead of having to wait for the mail to deliver it a week later after you ask for it.
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So when you know audio was the first to be available for download,
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which was a huge, huge step.
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Then digital, you know, digital Braille came along with our program
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here in the US called Web Braille.
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That was kind of the precursor to Bookshare, which is,
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you know, text to speech books or Braille files that you can get from Bookshare.
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And now there's a lot of international versions of Bookshare.
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And, you know, in England, in India, you know,
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many, many countries have an international access to Bookshare.
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And the Bookshare collection is huge.
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It's like 1.5 million titles available in text to speech or BRF files for reading on a
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on a Braille display. So the change in Braille technology has also been a really
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significant factor in just making more Braille available.
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Not necessarily having to put it on paper and then mail it.
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And sharing is so much easier for digital Braille.
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We can do that internationally now through Marrakesh,
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and people can store hundreds of files on their Braille devices.
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Yeah. And, and our library now loans eReader,
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Braille devices to our, our borrowers who are Braille readers and can
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either download them or we can send them.
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The format we use in the US is called the digital cartridge.
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And we can put audiobooks on that for the audio player.
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We can put Braille books on it that you connect to the Braille e-reader,
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and they're automatically copied off the cartridge into the bookshelf of your e-reader
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device. So it was a real high point in my career when we started to loan Braille
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devices to people. They are not note takers.
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They are e-readers. They're designed to be a book reading device,
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not to, you know, go on the web and do your email and store all your files and write your
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documents. That's a Braille note taker that has to be purchased.
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Those are different that the e-reader is very much a reading device,
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like a Kindle for sighted people.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Don't think I know too much about an e-reader,
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but I should probably try and check it out.
30:51
Kim Charlson: Yeah, I would hope maybe something like that is going to be available in Canada.
30:55
It is for our patrons now, which is really good in the United States.
30:59
We're really, really happy about that.
31:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I use a Victor stream to read all my books.
31:06
Kim Charlson: Oh, I love my Victor stream.
31:08
I do too. Very happy stream user.
31:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah! Yeah.
31:12
Kim Charlson: And I love to download things into it.
31:15
As often as I can. I wish I had more hours in my day so I could read more books.
31:20
Yeah. Because you know, I'm a librarian, so books are like my world,
31:23
but. Right. You know, with all these wonderful podcasts like yours,
31:28
there's so many hours in the day to read the books.
31:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know, I know. I know your work has helped make accessible reading available at a
31:40
real scale. When you think about the thousands of patrons and the enormous
31:48
circulations connected to Perkins, what stories or moments best remind you why
31:56
this work matters?
32:01
Kim Charlson: And I so often remember and try to keep myself grounded in the fact that it matters.
32:09
Every book that goes out every day, whether it's an audiobook or a Braille book,
32:14
absolutely matters for the person that's waiting for it,
32:17
right? So we, we do send out a lot of materials,
32:21
over 900,000 items shipped out from the Perkins Library last year.
32:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
32:29
Kim Charlson: The highest ever that we have circulated.
32:32
And that includes our our equipment as well as the books and magazines themselves.
32:38
So our circulation is higher certainly with audiobooks.
32:41
And then Braille is is less, but still pretty significant.
32:46
We have a couple thousand Braille readers and then our library has been providing Braille
32:54
services to other states since like the, the late 1880s,
32:59
because Perkins was one was the first school for the blind in the United States.
33:04
The library started in about 1870, so I have historical records from librarians
33:13
of many years ago in handwriting saying, you know,
33:16
they sent such and such a book to this person and such and such a book to that person.
33:20
Oh, they're reading records and little books.
33:23
Little journals. And I even came across a picture that is now in my library's
33:29
conference room of a photograph from around 1880.
33:34
That is a horse drawn cart that has a stack of Braille.
33:40
Well, they probably weren't even Braille books in 1880,
33:44
maybe just beginning. But the first reading method we had in in Massachusetts was called
33:50
Boston Line Type, which was a raised print letter book.
33:55
And those books were about two feet high and about,
33:58
you know, 14in wide and about six inches thick.
34:02
They were heavy. They had raised print lettering on one side of the page.
34:08
They had to be produced on a printing press like Franklin's printing press.
34:14
And the you know, I, Helen Keller used Boston line type.
34:21
I can barely read the lowercase numbers.
34:24
When I touch those books.
34:25
I can read the uppercase, but the lowercase is so small,
34:29
I don't know how people read it, but people say to me all the time,
34:32
well, I don't know how you read Braille.
34:34
And I said, isn't that hard?
34:36
So I suppose if I had only Boston line type to read,
34:40
I would have learned how to read it.
34:42
But I find it really challenging.
34:44
But I have a volume of Boston line type here in my library.
34:49
We have a lot of them in our archives, so they're protected and safe in an
34:53
environmentally sound place.
34:55
But one came in our mail one day.
34:58
Someone sent it back and it was in pretty good condition.
35:01
And it was published in 1871.
35:04
And it was a copy of hamlet.
35:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My lord.
35:08
Kim Charlson: I said, this book is going to be mine, and it is going to stay here in the library,
35:15
and it's going to be on a display rack.
35:18
So when people come, I can show them an actual example that they can touch.
35:24
And so it's my, my example of one of the first,
35:27
you know, early Braille, early tactile reading books that was
35:32
available anywhere because it was patterned after the books that were being used in
35:37
France and England at the time, which was line type as well.
35:42
So that, you know, to take a look at that Boston line type book and then to think about
35:49
the evolution of where all of our formats have come from,
35:52
from the record to the cassette to our digital books that we use now No to ebooks
35:59
and the availability of a Braille e-reader and a Victor stream or the audio players that
36:06
we have available. The.
36:08
The transition and the development of what we have available is pretty mind boggling,
36:14
really, that we've got the assets and the resources that we have and the formats
36:20
available to us now.
36:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think just listening to this boggles my mind.
36:26
I mean, I never really thought much about it until,
36:30
you know, fairly recently, so.
36:33
Wow. I'm especially interested in innovation that solves everyday barriers.
36:42
Could you talk about the Digital access Project and what it meant to create a system
36:51
where people could get accessible versions of books?
36:56
More, more, much more quickly than before.
37:01
Kim Charlson: So about 15 years ago, I had the opportunity to learn a little bit
37:09
more about the Internet Archive, which is an organization that kind of
37:14
preserves digital content to make sure that it doesn't get wiped away,
37:20
that it doesn't disappear, that it's always there and there's some
37:24
protection for that. And one of the things that the Internet Archive can do is legally,
37:34
they can do this. They did get challenged in the past in the courts for putting digital
37:39
books on the Internet Archive that were under copyright.
37:43
But they have the ability to put a digital book of any type on the internet archive if
37:53
it is protected. A daisy format protected and becomes a daisy book.
38:00
So the Internet Archive is doing that and people can access through the,
38:08
the Internet Archive website, they have to register and certify,
38:14
but I think that it is internationally accessible.
38:18
If someone gets registered, sort of like you have to do to get library
38:21
services. And the Boston Public Library is a scanning site for the Internet Archive,
38:31
and they actually have like a half a dozen people who work in the Boston Public Library
38:36
scanning books all day.
38:39
And they have they don't have scanners like we used to have on our desk,
38:42
where we would scan our print materials.
38:45
We have like enormous scanners that you can flatten the book on the camera comes down on
38:54
the pages and takes an image of the page.
38:58
Then the person sees on a foot pedal.
39:02
The camera comes up. They flip the page because flipping the page is the one manual
39:07
part they still need somebody to do, right?
39:10
And then the they flip the page, the camera comes back down,
39:13
takes the picture, lifts up, they flip the page so they can scan a book,
39:19
you know, like a 400 page book and maybe two hours.
39:23
And they are very accurate.
39:26
These scanners are big.
39:28
They're high end scanners.
39:30
They're very accurate.
39:32
And I met with the people at the Internet Archive in downtown Boston.
39:37
And I said, you know, I would like to start a collaboration where
39:41
we could help people who need to get access to a book that isn't available in an
39:49
accessible format Anywhere.
39:53
There are researchers.
39:54
I ended up having some very active borrowers using that scanning service that was,
40:01
were professors and they were teaching in college settings around Massachusetts and
40:07
other places because it was one of the first scanning projects.
40:11
So people heard about it.
40:14
They would reach out to me and say, could I get this book scanned?
40:16
If I send it to you? And I would say yes, because I don't say no to questions like
40:21
that, no matter where they live, you know?
40:23
Yeah. And so we would scan them and then there,
40:27
then they could use the files especially well on a Victor stream.
40:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because.
40:34
Kim Charlson: There isn't sophisticated, a lot of sophisticated markup,
40:37
but at least there was page markup.
40:39
So you could skip pages and you could, you know,
40:43
kind of scan through things and do your best.
40:46
So that was the best way to access the, the,
40:50
The text to speech on the Victor stream was how individuals could read those scanned
40:56
books that previously were not available to them at all.
40:59
And that really helped a lot of authors, writers,
41:04
instructors, teachers, professors that I work with to get access to
41:08
material that they had just never had access to before.
41:13
Bookshare has stepped in and done a lot of now making more and more books available
41:19
digitally.
41:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
41:20
Kim Charlson: I don't have as much call for the digital archive project in the Boston Public Library
41:25
as I once did, but it sort of set the stage and was kind of,
41:30
you know, borne out of the concepts around Bookshare and what we could do if we
41:37
collaborated together with some of the technologies that were available at the time.
41:42
So now we've got Bookshare.
41:46
And just many, many different aspects.
41:49
I mean, there's even mainstream aspects where we can get our books that we didn't have
41:54
access to before. Things like Kindle books.
41:58
There's an app there's that can read those.
42:01
So there's just so many more options for people if they have the ability to utilize
42:08
the technologies that are out there, whether it's,
42:10
you know, iOS, iPhones or Android phones, smartphones can do so many things and get us
42:18
access to so many more things than we had even 15,
42:22
20 years ago.
42:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
42:25
Kim Charlson: And it's just it is mind boggling and technology.
42:29
You know, I, I want to just say briefly some of the,
42:32
there's a couple other things in sort of this systemic change,
42:37
digital areas that I've worked in and done advocacy in that I think are game changers as
42:43
well. One of them is access to accessible prescription labels for medication.
42:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes.
42:50
Kim Charlson: And being able to get a mail order pharmacy to produce a Braille or a large print or an
42:57
audio label that you can scan with an app or read yourself.
43:02
There's been a lot of work over the last 10 or 15 years in the US,
43:07
and I think it's crept into Canada as well.
43:10
I hope so that some of the pharmacies have it available where people can get accessible
43:18
prescription labels through script talk.
43:20
Cvs pharmacy in the US has an app that has a RFID chip that on a sticker on the bottom of
43:29
a bottle that can be scanned by the app, and it will tell you all sorts of information
43:35
about your prescriptions.
43:37
So I think, you know, access to that kind of information enables
43:43
people to be more independent, manage their own health care,
43:46
their medical needs, their prescriptions.
43:48
Reduces accidental, you know, mixing up your bottles using the rubber band
43:54
or two rubber band. Right, right kind of thing.
43:58
And then having to remember, you know, which bottle and you just grab one
44:01
and you took two of the wrong pill or something.
44:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've done that. I have stories.
44:05
Kim Charlson: Where, where a young mother had twins and she also was caring for her father.
44:12
And she inadvertently, her father put his meds right next to the
44:15
kids med.
44:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
44:17
Kim Charlson: She accidentally gave her child the father's meds,
44:20
so it was a frightening experience.
44:22
Oh, child was okay. There was some sickness because of the medication wasn't what a child
44:29
should be taking. She felt so guilty about what happened to her.
44:34
And I said, you know, we need to to make sure you get connected
44:38
with a program that will give you accessibility so you don't have to worry
44:43
about this ever happening for you again.
44:47
So another area where I've done accessibility work beyond the library is access to voting.
44:55
And again, it's an important issue in Canada as well as the US being able to independently
45:01
cast your ballot, review your ballot, mark it.
45:05
And in some cases throughout the US actually submit an electronic ballot to the election
45:13
authorities. We can do that in Massachusetts.
45:16
There's several other states within the US that can do that,
45:20
but elections are managed at the state level in the US.
45:24
And so it's state by state how we have access,
45:28
but we also have accessible machines in the polling places.
45:32
So if somebody wants to go in and vote in person,
45:36
those accessible machines have to be set up on Election day.
45:39
And if a blind person comes in to use one that it has to be set up.
45:44
One time I went in in person to vote and they said,
45:47
well, we didn't think anyone was coming, so we didn't set it up.
45:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh no.
45:51
Kim Charlson: I said, well, I'm here now.
45:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go write it up. Right?
45:54
Kim Charlson: And they said, well, that'll take a while. I said, I'll wait.
45:58
I made them set it up.
46:00
And then I went over and I voted and I turned my ballot and I said,
46:03
thank you. Next time, set it up in the morning.
46:07
Because how do you know somebody who's blind isn't going to come in to vote?
46:11
You need to be ready. So I mean, those are just fundamental things that are so
46:19
important in our society.
46:22
And I guess the other thing that I've worked on,
46:24
and this one does kind of circle back to the library because we distribute the device,
46:29
but accessible paper money candidate.
46:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is.
46:33
Kim Charlson: So far ahead of the US.
46:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right.
46:36
Kim Charlson: Money.
46:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
46:37
Kim Charlson: Currency.
46:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
46:38
Kim Charlson: Because you have a tactile symbol on your on your.
46:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right, that's right.
46:43
Kim Charlson: It's fabulous. It's wonderful.
46:45
Well, we've had to battle for decades in the US to get any kind of accessibility.
46:51
And finally, we had to go to court in 2008, we won the lawsuit.
46:55
And then the government's been saying, we're studying it. We're trying to figure out
46:59
how to do it. You know, they our government wants to have paper
47:03
money, so they're worried about printing it and having the stacks of money be level in
47:09
the vault. And I said, that's not my problem.
47:12
You know, it's like.
47:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We need we need.
47:14
Kim Charlson: Access to know what we have.
47:16
So this when when I was president of the American Council of the blind between 2013
47:23
and 2019, one of the first things I did was have a meeting with our Bureau of Engraving
47:29
and Printing, which prints our money, and I said,
47:33
what are you doing to make our currency accessible?
47:36
And they said, well, we have an app and we're doing this.
47:39
I said, no, I'm talking about tactile.
47:41
Identification of.
47:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Currency. Right.
47:43
Kim Charlson: What are you doing? Well, we're trying to figure it out.
47:47
And I.
47:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Said.
47:48
Kim Charlson: Well, you know, ACB won the lawsuit back in 2008.
47:53
So, you know, I want to challenge you that you need to find some kind of way to provide
47:59
meaningful access to a blind person who has money they need to identify.
48:06
So beyond an app, because maybe everybody doesn't have a smartphone or have it.
48:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. That's right.
48:12
Kim Charlson: What else can you do? Well, six months later,
48:14
they demoed a talking currency reader that you could slide the bill into and it would
48:19
speak the denomination.
48:22
It would beep the this the sound for the specific denomination or it will vibrate the
48:29
denomination. So we do have talking currency readers now in the U.S.
48:34
to help. But sometime in 2026, we have not received a date yet.
48:42
The $20 bill redesign is supposed to be coming out,
48:47
and it has a tactile feature on the edge where you can feel kind of little rectangles
48:53
along the edge. And I don't even know the how many rectangles equals which thing yet
48:59
because I haven't seen a bill yet, but we're supposed to have our first bill
49:03
coming out with a tactile feature, and we distribute the talking currency
49:08
readers through our library program here now to make those more accessible to people who
49:14
are in the U.S. to use our currency and identify it.
49:18
It's been a long battle, but, you know, we're getting there.
49:21
I'm going to be very, very old when all the bills in.
49:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My.
49:24
Kim Charlson: Wallet are all tactilely accessible, but it's going to happen.
49:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think you've done a lot, and there's so much more that I could ask
49:35
you, but my clock is winding down.
49:36
I want to just sneak this question into you.
49:41
What do you dream of that could be any different or make a difference,
49:48
or anything you could think of that would help in any way.
49:53
I mean, I can't think of anything else that you could do,
49:56
but what would you like to see?
49:59
Kim Charlson: I know, I mean, you know, we often have the philosophical conversation
50:05
about about, you know, now is the best time to be a blind person
50:09
because the technologies are just incredible and they're becoming better and better every
50:15
day with things like meta glasses and.
50:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You know.
50:19
Kim Charlson: Glide and, and all these different things to help us navigate.
50:23
I, I'm, I'm still a little skeptical on glide because I'm a longtime guide dog user and I'm
50:30
pretty darn happy with my guide dog getting around.
50:32
But.
50:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
50:34
Kim Charlson: The glide is a pretty cool mobility device.
50:36
The. We walk cane, a walking cane with GPS.
50:40
I, I just, you know, it's, it's kind of hard to imagine,
50:44
but I think, I think the, the latest kind of game changer are the meta
50:50
glasses and.
50:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What they can.
50:51
Kim Charlson: Tell you about your world and what they can read to you.
50:55
We've never had accessibility to signs as we have with meta glasses now because they're
51:02
very good about reading a sign and giving you information and they're getting better and
51:08
better all the time at what they can tell us.
51:12
So the things that I think about are the, the ability to travel more independently.
51:20
I, I dream of the day when an autonomous vehicle will come to my front door.
51:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Every.
51:26
Kim Charlson: Morning and take me to work and not have to even barely think twice about it.
51:31
I mean, Uber was a huge game changer, but I think the autonomous vehicle for our
51:37
community can be an amazing game changer where people can share a car.
51:43
You know, we don't all have to own one to be able to use it.
51:46
We can share it. It can come and go and go help this person,
51:49
take this person somewhere, come back and get you.
51:52
Do this and be able to just do that and go where we want,
51:56
when we want. Is going to be a major thing.
52:00
Not having to schedule drivers or rides or convince a family member they need to take us
52:06
somewhere. Yeah, when we can just do it ourselves.
52:10
That will be an amazing time.
52:12
And, and the time is now where we have to advocate for that.
52:16
Because certainly in the US, there's a lot of positive advocacy around
52:21
autonomous vehicles, but there's also skepticism about it.
52:25
And there's places where, you know, you have to have a driver's license
52:29
to have a ride in an autonomous vehicle.
52:32
Well, why would that be a requirement?
52:35
That's silly. We're not driving the car.
52:37
We're sitting in the car.
52:39
It's going to take us somewhere.
52:41
So we have to find that.
52:43
We have to pay attention to the policy development and what's going on,
52:47
and laws that are being passed in different states about no autonomous vehicles here.
52:51
Yes, we want them over here because the people are going to eventually determine that
52:58
autonomous vehicles have a place and they won't displace other kinds of of workers.
53:05
There's a lot of fear around that.
53:06
But I just think that that's one of the things on our horizon that will absolutely
53:11
change our lives so dramatically to have instant access to transportation.
53:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really enjoyed your this this interview.
53:22
And I love your attitude and I like your dreams.
53:25
And I want to thank you for having been my guest for today.
53:29
And any time you wish, you want to come back and talk more about
53:32
your dreams, talk more about things you're doing,
53:36
please do not hesitate to come.
53:38
Let me know.
53:40
Kim Charlson: Thank you. Donna, it's really been a pleasure to be a part of of your work and your
53:47
Remarkable Conversations podcast.
53:49
And again, I'm really honored to have been asked,
53:53
and I'll be happy to come back in the future.
53:56
So thank you for the opportunity.
53:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'll be knocking at your door.
53:59
Thank you very much, Kim.
54:00
It has been a pleasure. Bye for now.
54:03
Kim Charlson: Thank you. Donna. Take care.
54:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too. Bye bye.
54:07
Kim Charlson: Bye.
54:11
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@gmail.com.
54:17
Until next time.