Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / The Silversmith Deep Dive (Ch. 19–30): Spicy Sponge Bath, Gavin Smyth’s Scars, & 13 Gods Theory

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The Silversmith Deep Dive (Ch. 19–30): Spicy Sponge Bath, Gavin Smyth’s Scars, & 13 Gods Theory · Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast

• Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantic theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy. Rachel: And today is episode three in our four episode deep dive of The Silversmith by LJ Claren. This episode will cover chapters nineteen through thirty of the book from the perspective of two people who have read the full book. So that means spoilers. If you don't know who the Butcher of Neorda is, pause the podcast and come back once you've finished reading. Kate: Planning your TBR for the rest of the summer? After next week, we'll be starting our next deep dive, and we think it's the perfect series to close out the summer and get excited for fall. Rachel: Some would say it's magically good time in. Kate: That's right. Drum roll, please. Rachel: Ooh Kate: Perfect, thank you. Our next deep dive will cover practical magic. Woohoo! Rachel: That's right! You may have watched the movie, but have you read the books by Alice Hoffman? With Practical Magic 2, the movie, coming out this fall, let's get to know the Owens family and their heartbreaking love curse. We have multiple books to cover before we begin our deep dive of the incendiary, book two of the Salvaring series, which comes out this September. So the Practical Magic episodes will follow a slightly different format than our coverage of The Silversmith. Be sure to connect with us on social media for our official schedule and reading guide. And you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook at Deep Trope Podcast. One last note before we begin. Please check the content warnings on the book because all trigger warnings from The Silversmith apply to this podcast. We're two unfiltered, opinionated millennials, so maybe grab your headphones if you're around anyone who doesn't quite appreciate Smith's dirty mouth as much as Ari does. All right, let's meet Ari and Gavin and Tovik, where they're waking up after their first almost cuddle session. Kate: Almost almost So Ari wakes up after a stressful night to find Gavin resting his hand on her stomach, having stayed by her side all night to keep her safe. And do we think it's relevant that he was resting his hand on her abdomen or is it just a coincidence? Rachel: that's interesting. So you think it could maybe be a symbol of where her magic resides, like we theorized on last week's episode? Kate: I don't know, but I just feel like every reference to her stomach or her abdomen, I'm just like hyper focused now because I want some kind of clue into what's going on and w like what happened to her, you know, what's the scar from? So it really could just be like a cozy spot for him to rest his hand and you know, it's just a natural thing, but could it be some kind of more protective part of him or s just like a gesture that means a little bit more. I don't know, but I was just so and any time stomach or abdomen comes up, I'm like, what's going on? Is Rachel: Is that a clue? Is that a clue? Kate: it a clue? Nicolas Cage voice. It's a clue. Rachel: Either way, it's still like a very cute protective gesture. Kate: Yes, very cute. Maybe doesn't mean anything more, I don't know. But anyway, when she wakes up, she notices him playing with a vial of dark liquid around his neck, lost in thought, but she doesn't question him about it. Ari realizes that Gemma didn't return during the night and must have spent the night with Finn. Gavin assures her that Finn is a good man, calling him better than most. Rachel: Get it, girl. Kate: Well, I'm glad at least someone is fucking in this book right now. Rachel: Yeah, it's a shame that we didn't get that scene. Maybe a bonus scene. Kate: Yeah, maybe a little bonus episode. At breakfast, Damon and Kaz discuss how Molokai's insidians are advancing north, destroying previously safe villages and overwhelming Elias' forces. Rachel: At this point, Gavin says Malachi isn't aware of Ari, so why is his army advancing? Kate: I mean, is it just that it's an ongoing war and they're always trying to gain ground? Rachel: Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I know that they have the south while Simeon's forces have the north and they're always sort of feuding. but I am curious if there's a reason why his army's on the move and what they're attempting to achieve with it. Like are they just trying to take over all of Nirada or is there something specific they're going after? Kate: good questions. We'll have to consider that when we learn more about Molokai. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: But despite the increased threat, Gavin insists that they stick to the plan to travel to Brynia to meet with Simeon. And later that day, while sparring, Gavin tells Ari she is holding back and needs to fight to survive, not just fight fair. So she punches Kaz in the throat, much to Gavin's delight. Like literally going for the jugular. I love it. Rachel: Poor cas. Kate: I'll be fine. Gavin attacks Ari to test her will to survive, recreating the assault from the night before, and she responds with an enraged headbutt to his face. Like, good job. Gavin defends his actions by saying he'd gladly cross any line to make sure that she learns how to protect herself. And Ari refuses to speak to him for the rest of the day, but she internally acknowledges that the brutal exercise was effective, helping her realize that her drive to fight stems from her deep sense of justice. Ari might have acknowledged the effectiveness of it, but my god, this felt really fucked up to me. Like, I don't care Rachel: Mm. Kate: how he tried to justify it, there's no way that recreating her sexual assault from literal like hours ago. was the only way to test her will to survive. This is the one moment in the book that challenges my perception of him as the ultimate daddy, to be honest, because this is dark and it just feels seriously fucked up for him to do. There's just no justification in my mind for re-traumatizing her like this. Not to mention it's literally been less than twenty four hours since the assault. Like she still has bruises, for fuck's sake. Rachel: Right. I see your point. And I think Ari made her point very clear when she headbutted him. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: I gotta defend my man. And I think Gavin was reacting to how he found her at the beginning of the book. So when he found her, she was on death's door and she was doing nothing to change her circumstances. Like she wasn't trying to hunt. She even makes a note or she makes a comment to herself at the beginning of the book when I think it was Finn caught the hare that they ate for lunch and Kate: Mm. Rachel: was like, it was seemed pretty simple. I can't believe I didn't think to try that. and it's because she was completely numb and she had given up. And I think that Gavin was worried that last night put her back in that numb space. And if she is ever attacked again in the future, she might just give up. So, you know, you can teach somebody the motions of how to protect themselves, you can teach them how to fight, but ultimately having the will to fight can't be taught. So he was trying to like force that will out of her. Kate: Yeah, I mean, I get what he thought he was doing. I'm just still stuck on the fact that he literally recreated the sexual assault part of it. Like he made her think that he was going to sexually assault her, not just like hurt her or kill her, but like recreated that specific kind of attack, which felt unnecessary to me. Rachel: I also think that he was trying to force her magic. Like, I think he's like, Where is your power? Why hasn't it shown Kate: Yeah. Yeah, like what Rachel: up? Why didn't it show up then? You know? Kate: Right, yeah, 'cause that that's what we questioned that too, of like, wouldn't it have been convenient Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: for her power to show up when she was starving to death? Rachel: Or when she was fighting off her attacker. Kate: right. Yeah. Or any of these other times where she was in mortal danger. Rachel: Right. Right. Kate: Yeah. So I I get it. I know. Like and again, Ari acknowledges that it was effective at like triggering something in her. But like it also triggered her trauma, I'm sure. So I don't Rachel: Yeah. Kate: know. But anyway, moving on, Ari is trying to learn everything that she can from the book that Ezra gave her about the Rexus dynasty. She's read it so many times. She's memorized all of the Rexus rulers and the dates of their rule. Rachel: Well, isn't this interesting? It had to have been mentioned for a reason. I know you might think that this is crazy to note, but I'm wondering if we're going to meet them somehow. Stay with me here. Why would she why would it say that she memorized every single Rexus ruler and the dates of the rule? To me. That makes me think, what are we seeing in this book patterns about history? We're seeing history being rewritten. We're seeing history be erased. And we're seeing messed up timelines because people can literally be paused in time for 400 years, trapped, you know, in time. And other people who are just not aging for 400 years, right? So Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Are we going to somehow meet one of these rulers who is also trapped in time? or will Ari somehow notice a discrepancy in the recorded history? Kate: Ooh. I mean that's a much more theory driven way to think about this. I was thinking of it like it's the only book that she has. And you know, like the time before we all brought our phones to the bathroom and we just read the back of the shampoo bottle. and like I was just thinking she just had no other option, so she memorized it because she just kept reading the same thing. But that's why that's No, but Rachel: Yeah, I mean that's that could totally be what it is. I'm I might be fully in my romantic conspiracy theorist mode right now. Kate: I know. No, but that's what we need. We need that because otherwise I'm just gonna keep like floating along, being like, yeah, no, she just must have gotten bored on the toilet. So anyway, she has memorized this book. She's looking for more books to memorize, I assume. So she asks Damon and he takes her to a massive red brick library filled with thousands of books. The library sounds incredible, and it turns out that Gavin built it himself, like with his spare hands. And he has living quarters below the library. Rachel: like in the basement? Kate: Yeah. Yeah, he's a basement dweller. Rachel: Hmm. I mean, we've said it before and we'll say it again. We love an MMC with a library. But one he built and you just know that it was his way of searching for Ari over the past four hundred years. Kate: yeah. Yeah. I mean he had to put his energy into something 'cause Rachel: Right. Kate: he wasn't fucking. We know that. Rachel: Mm-hmm. So he was reading instead. Kate: He was reading instead. Those are the only two options. You're either fucking or reading. Rachel: Why not both? L J Claren, a Kate: Why not those? That's just our motto. Rachel: note for your books. Kate: We can do both. We can handle it. I promise. So learning that he has these living quarters, we learn that he usually stays in his home when he's in Tovik, preferring to avoid the black badger owned by Damon, which he lovingly calls Damon's hedonistic shithole. Very nice. But it turns out that he's been loaning his place out to Gemma and Finn for their fuck fest this entire time. Rachel: What a guy. This really shows us a little something about Smith, because it doesn't seem like something that you would think he would he would do. Kate: I know. Like was it just that they were getting he was getting so annoyed with their like flirting that he just wanted to get them away from him? Rachel: I think he's a hopeless romantic. Kate: I think you're probably right. That's probably more likely. So Damon and Ari have a heart to heart while Gavin sits down to read, looking, quote, beautiful and savage, like a rugged scholar. And this image of him is so hot. We love a man who reads. And I'm hereby requesting a character art of this scene. LJ Claren, if you are listening, please take a note. We want to see Gavin looking like a beautiful, savage, rugged scholar, please. Rachel: We're being very demanding of LJ on this episode. Kate: We are Rachel: We're we now want a spicy scene of Gemma and Fed. We would like very explicit sex scenes Kate: I assume that we're going to get them. I'm just, you know, sometimes the slow burn burns. Rachel: And then finally now we have specific character art requests as well. Kate: If you don't ask, you'll never get what you want. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're we're always gonna ask. Kate: What's the harm in asking? Rachel: That being said, I'm also imagining our four hundred plus year old man has a pair of slutty little reading glasses, right? Like I know it might not be on page, but like those are some old ass Kate: I know. Rachel: eyes. Kate: When they are really how I mean, it is amazing that like my thirty-two year old eyes are degrading and my prescription gets stronger every single year. And yet somehow Gavin gets to keep perfect vision for 400 plus years. So it's bullshit. But Rachel: Magic. Kate: it is magic. Yeah. But I did I I actually went back and looked at this scene multiple times to like look for a reference to slutty little glasses because I like it sounded like the exact scene that that would be in. So I was like, are Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: they in here? Are they in here? Sadly they are not, but in my mind, they can be whatever Rachel: They're there. Kate: they want. So seeing Ari look at Gavin, Damon questions whether she really wants to be just friends with him. Obviously not. But she sputters something about him having a wife, yada yada, bullshit. And Damon seems caught off guard by the fact that Gavin mentioned his wife. So Damon must be so confused at this point, trying to put the pieces together in his mind to figure out why the hell Smith would tell Ari he had a wife, but not that it's her? Like what is the end game? Rachel: Yeah, it was a weird move. This entire book, Damon is just like, Bro, that is not the move. Kate: Figure it out, dude. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And he makes so many questionable choices. Like he really does just need to like listen to his buddy Damon. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. We we learn a good amount about Damon in this scene and his dynamic with Gavin, but we also learn that he is likely gay. He says that Ari is not his type and that he has alternate interests. And I wonder if this will get explored any further in the next book. Rachel: I mean, I love that Gavin has a sassy gay BFF. Like, that is definitely how he's described, right? Kate: It is, yeah. Rachel: right, like shaking cocktails. I love that. He Kate: Doing the little flip behind his back like Tom Cruise. Rachel: they literally said he did that. Yes. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: He is a trained bartender. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: but yeah, I would love to see a Jamin love story, like maybe a love interest for Ezra, because Ezra could use some loving and somebody to, you know, make him a little bit Kate: Distract him. Rachel: more chill. He needs to be chilled Kate: Yeah. Rachel: out. Kate: Yeah, smooth those edges a little bit. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I'm not gonna ask for it because we've already asked for so much, but I'll just leave that there. So So Ari wants to understand more about her prophesized magic before meeting Simeon, so she spends hours studying a specific book in the library called The Book of the Selvarin. So here she goes memorizing another book. She decides to memorize the unique powers of the 12 gods. So I'll give a brief rundown of all of them. We have Nevelyn, the goddess of snow and ice, who could freeze anything with a single touch. Aurana. Goddess of gravity, could levitate and move items without lifting a finger. Viridian, god of healing and regeneration, could repair the injured and dying and regrow limbs and organs. Raynar, god of the seas, could manipulate water into whatever shape, wave, or weapon he desired. Floris, goddess of the earth, could wield the vines and branches of trees like extra limbs. Esta, goddess of light, could illuminate her surroundings with a flick of her wrist. Helios, god of fire, can burn. Ephusia, goddess of the mind, can alter emotions with the touch of her hand. Sultum, god of animals, can communicate with creatures. Altumna, goddess of the hunt, could alter her appearance to go undetected by prey, and Susero, god of wind and air, could steer the wind as he pleased. Rachel: Also apparently loves to fuck. Kate: Lots of sons and daughters, apparently. And then finally we have Nixar who we mentioned last episode, the god of celestial night, who is the strongest deity and possesses the ability to eclipse and nullify all other gods' powers. Rachel: okay, this is terrifying. I sure hope Ari is the one with this power, because if Molokai has it, we're all toast. Kate: I know. I was I I was worried when I heard about this because we know that Malachi has like shadow powers, right? Because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: he's To us unwilling shadow daddy, unfortunately. that's right. We a deadbeat shadow dad. Yeah, Rachel: Mm. Mm-hmm. No, he's not a shadow daddy. What did we call him? Get that word out your mouth. Yes. He's a deadbeat shadow dad. Kate: so Molokai as a deadbeat shadow dad is connected to darkness, so I am Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: worried that he might be connected to the god of celestial night. But yeah, I mean this is a terrifying power. Obviously, it makes sense that Nixar is the strongest god because if you can eclipse and nullify all of the other gods' powers, like that's the ultimate power. So that's I really hope that it's in the right hands. Rachel: Yeah, that's terrifying. Kate: Yes, it is. So Ari gets through all of the information about the gods, but then she is frustrated to find that the final 13 pages of the book are completely blank in all copies, offering no clues on how a mortal is supposed to actually wield these godly powers. So this is very interesting. Rachel: That's sus. Kate: Because what is actually missing in these pages? Is it details of how to wield the powers like Ari thinks? Or is it info that would give us more insight into who Ari is and what power she has? It's interesting that it's 13 blank pages, right? So it's not like Rachel: Mm. Kate: these pages are torn out. They're just blank. Almost like the contents had been wiped or hidden by some kind of magic, maybe. And we know that Molokai's magic doesn't work. In Simeon's wards. And we know Tovik is warded by Simeon, so it's likely not Molokai's magic if it's magic that's hiding this content. So would that mean that it would be Simeon's power that would be manipulating it and hiding that? So again, if that's the case, what would Simeon want to hide? We know he doesn't want people to know the source of the magic, so maybe it's that. Rachel: That's very interesting. I mean, erasing pages from a book, aka erasing history, Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: sounds very similar to erasing memories. So it feels like the same kind of magic, right? Kate: Yes, it does. That's a good connection. Rachel: I also want to call out that it's specifically 13 pages. Like, why is it the number 13? And Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: on a very basic level, I believe that LJ Claren is a Swifty. So it could just be a little like Easter egg a reference to Taylor Swift, or maybe there's significance in the number 13. Kate: Okay. I I'm not sure how thirteen is connected to Taylor Swift. Is this something that you could tell me very quickly or is it too complicated? And if you know, you know and we can just move on. Rachel: girl, everybody knows. It's just her favorite number. There's more to it than that, but it's her favorite number and she uses it all the time. Kate: okay. All right. Well, I think thirteen could be significant for a different reason, which is something that kind of we learn in the next chapter. Rachel: Okay. So hold on to that thought. Kate: So I'll bring you. Hold on to it. Gonna come back round to it. So outside of the library, Damon helps distract Ari by teaching her how to use a bow and arrow, and she's definitely feeling the impact of all the training that she's been doing. Thanks to Gavin's insistence on massive meals and her rigorous eight hour daily training schedule, Arya's finally growing stronger and gaining weight. Rachel: Love this. I love that we see the physical results of her like healing. That it's yes, she's becoming stronger because she's getting trained, but also and eating, but she's also like emotionally healing as well. So it's this nice visual for that. and I was gonna say that I want Smith to train me, but my husband wrote me a 30-minute a day training program, and I can barely handle that. So eight hours does sound like hell. Kate: I mean, who knows what we could do with our lives if we didn't have a nine to five job, you know? Rachel: I would be an Olympian. Kate: Convinced. That's the only thing step standing between Rachel and Olympic gold is her corporate office job. Rachel: That's right. That's right. If I just Kate: That was Rachel: didn't have the commute, I can't even imagine what I could just do with that time. Kate: I mean, at at least nationals there, right? I mean, maybe not world stage, but certainly. Rachel: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Kate: Okay. Well I was just gonna say, yeah, maybe we could like, you know, spend a little more time at the gym or have some more hobbies, but I guess we're just we could all be Olympians if we had eight hours a day to dedicate to it. Rachel: I mean this is just the most ultimate me thing to say because I Kate: Yeah. Rachel: live with the delusion that with the right resources I can truly do anything. Kate: You know what? Good for you. That's Rachel: Ha ha Ha ha ha Kate: Don't ever let anybody take that from you, Rachel. Rachel: Somebody needed that delusion so that we would start a podcast. Kate: That's true. This would not be happening if it wasn't for your slightly delusional sense Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: of accomplishment. Anything is possible. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: But hey, we fucking did it, so look Rachel: Look at us go. Kate: at us. Alright, so Ari's not an Olympian, but she is no longer starving and feeble. So that's a win as well. But Gavin is not super happy with her right now, and he confronts her about why she's been avoiding him, and she confesses that she's avoiding him because it hurts to know that entering the caves and embracing her royal destiny will ultimately force her to give him up. So Ari is also coming to terms with her feelings for Gavin, and she's admitting that she craves his safety, his presence, his laughter, and she's realizing that what she feels for him must be love. And she thinks that, quote, I had found in him a soul that connected with mine, as if our bond had been declared by the gods long before a clairvoyant queen's prophecy. Rachel: Hmm. Kate: There were hints before, but come on. This has got to mean that they're faded mates, right? Rachel: Declared by the gods. Declared Kate: I mean Rachel: by the gods? Kate: A soul that connected with mine? It's Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: black and white, right? Rachel: I mean, it sounds like it. And I wanna know about this gods line, because I feel like that's even beyond Faded Mates. Like, is there some kind of prophecy about them? An actual prophecy, not propaganda? Or are they like Kate: And yeah. Rachel: is it are they gods? Like reincarnated gods? I really do wonder if they're demigods. Kate: I mean, but also declared by what gods? Because she has the power Rachel: Right. Kate: of the Selvarin. Rachel: Hmm. Maybe, maybe we were talking about how Molokai had that line This is this war is bigger than the war between two old men or whatever. And how we had that idea that it's a war with the Salvarin and maybe the original gods. What if she was Kate: Mm. Rachel: like one of the original gods or was prophesized about as The one to restore the original gods. Kate: I mean, I do like that theory and I think that we might have might have a little bit of evidence to that when we finally see her powers come up in the next chapter. So let's get let's get there. Rachel: Okay, so hold on to that one again. Okay, okay. Kate: Suddenly, fire, smoke, and screams erupt in the heart of Tovik, sending out a massive shockwave as the temple of the Salvarin begins to crumble. A devastating explosion rips through the temple, and in the chaotic aftermath, Ari discovers a distraught mother cradling a young boy who has suffered a deep gash near his throat from falling debris. Desperate to save him, Ari clamps her hands over the wound and begs the gods for mercy. She is suddenly transported. Into a vision of a giant spinning 12-spoked wheel representing the twelve deities. Realizing that her own body acts as the stationary axis anchoring the spinning gods, Ari reaches for the green spoke to channel the power of Viridian, the god of healing and regeneration. There's a flash of green light that completely heals the boy's wound and saves his life. So here it is. Here's the imagery that I'm talking about. Let's Rachel: Okay. Kate: talk about it. So we see this wheel with 12 spokes for 12 gods, but the center of the wheel, the place that connects them all together, the anchor, like Ari says, is her. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So 12 gods and Ari, that's 13. Just saying. But also, I know we talked about this last episode and again just now, the possibility Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: of Ari being some kind of deity herself or having helped Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: to create Nirda by sacrificing part of herself. And this imagery gave some more evidence to that kind of theory, because She's complained before about her soul feeling split into pieces. What if her soul got split into twelve pieces? Creating each of the Silvarin. I Rachel: Hm. Kate: don't know. Like the the idea that she's the anchor for them and she's in the center of what of them, like that makes Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: me think that she is like the origin of their power. Rachel: That's very interesting. And I feel like you could be on to something here. Especially because they describe the Selvarin as having given what, a small piece of theirs magic or themselves to create this world, right? Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: What if what actually happened is Ari or whoever Ari originally was did that to create the Selvarin, which are the gods of this world? Because What they're described as, like it's the elements, right? Like those are all the things that make up the earth. Kate: Right. It's elemental magic, yeah. Rachel: And the fact that the visual system for it is just like a rainbow and all the colors and that, Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: you know, the the spectrum of light that would create the world. I don't know. Is this are we getting into metaphysics? Is this metaphysics? I didn't even get to physics in high Kate: Mm. Rachel: school, so I'm a little confused about what we're talking about at this point, but I feel like there's something here, right? Kate: I can't I can't spiral about that. I don't know enough. I'm gonna Rachel: Ha ha Kate: sound so dumb. Rachel: don't know. Certainly elemental magic, Kate: But the the imagery Rachel: but I think the I think the colors and the light, something like that could be part of it. Kate: Well, and just the visual of like they're all in a circle around her. So whether she's the anchor Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: or the conduit or you know, whatever it is, like she is essential to bringing these powers together. I don't know. Rachel: She's like Mother Earth. Kate: Mother. We have daddy and mother. I love it. Rachel: But also, we need to talk about what a way to discover her powers. Like we keep talking about why are these powers not showing up? but it's just such an RE moment. They were never showing up to save her. They showed up when she needed to save somebody else. And it just says so much about her. She feels so much compassion for this child and his mother, and she has to save him. And it again just reinforces who she is, the type of person she is. And if you're right and she's like this main god or Mother Earth, it's a powerful image of the type of caring she has and the type of love she has for her people. Kate: It is. It is. It's it's definitely powerful imagery, no matter what it actually means, ultimately. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: It's it's a very cool image. Like I don't think that I've really read something recently that has that kind of imagery for accessing your powers. You know, like we hear about like you pull it from this place inside of you, whatever. But like having this like she basically goes to this place in her mind where she sees Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: this all of her powers kind of around her. She like reaches for the one that she needs. Like that's just very cool imagery. Rachel: And it is sort of like she's on another plane of existence. Like she's there. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: She describes it as like being there in the temple, but that's all happening around her. And I d I'm sure nobody else can see it, right? Kate: Yeah. definitely not. Rachel: So again, metaphysics. Kate: Don't I can't. This isn't science, Rachel. This is magic, okay? This doesn't play by any rules. Rachel: We need Axe Harlston to We need Axe Harlston to read this book and come on here and and be our science friends. Kate: Yeah, we need we need some people in STEM to come in and Rachel: Yeah. Kate: school us a little bit. Rachel: If you're a reader in STEM Yeah, if you're a reader Kate: Yeah. Please, because we are marketers. Rachel: in STEM, please chime in in the comments. Kate: Mm-hmm. Alright, so Ari just saved this young boy's life, but the town is still in chaos, and she and Gavin return to the tavern to find that its front wall has been completely blown out, and Kaz has his left leg severed at the calf by a fallen boulder. Exhausted and weak from her previous effort, Ari desperately attempts to summon the green light to heal Kaz's leg, but she fails to reach her magic. And I was kind of wondering here if it was harder to reach because Kaz wasn't mortally wounded. Rachel: Hmm. Maybe. I read it as her just being like depleted. Like the magic took something out of her. and she needed to recover before she could draw from that same source of magic, but Kate: that's that's a good point. It would be coming from the same source. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you could be right. It could be something about like the mortal wound or even although I think where his leg was cut could have been a mortal wound, honestly. Kate: It definitely coulda I mean, if he if they didn't treat it, he could've bled out, I'm sure. Rachel: Yeah. yeah, I don't know. Kate: Yeah, I mean I think I think your theory makes more sense because she this is the first time that she's ever used her powers that we know Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: of. So it would make sense if she's just exhausted because she's not used to wielding that kind of power. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So Gavin insists that Molokai doesn't know that Ary is there, and Damon agrees, saying the insidians always go after the temples first. Rachel: So, this is obviously a reference to the assumption that as the butcher, Gavin would know if Molokai was aware of Ari. But I also think it could be a hint about what is driving Molokai. Why are the Insidians targeting temples, Kate? it says that they despise the Salvarin. Why? As we theorized last week, I think this gives credence to our theory that there are warring deities. Kate: I mean, it makes sense, right? Whether it's Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: something that's tied to like if they destroy connections to the Silvarin, maybe that somehow weakens Ari's power, somehow. Like she has less connection to her powers that way. I don't know. But either way, like it's it's definitely them trying to weaken their enemy, whether that Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: is Ari or literally the Silvarian themselves. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like some kind of a crusade. Kate: Yeah. So yeah, I mean it is it is interesting trying to figure out what the motive is for this attack, right? Because again, we know that Molokai's magic can't impact a place that has Simeon's wards, but this bomb could have been there, I think they said, for an extended period of time beforehand, and something physical like that isn't going to be protected. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: you know, like magic would be. So It's I'm also just trying to think like if it was there for a long time, was it just were they just waiting for the right moment to to use it too? So I'm trying Rachel: Mm. Kate: to think of like what why is the timing happening right now? You know, because that and that's Rachel: Right. Right. Kate: what they're trying to figure out. That's why they thought, well, well, does he know that Ari is here and that's why he's doing it now? But Gavin insists that he doesn't. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So why now? To your point before. Why is he making all these moves now? If that bomb had been there potentially for years, why now? Rachel: Why now? Kate: So Ari is trying to figure out how to move forward from this. She can't heal Kaz, so she commands Gemma, Finn, and Ezra to depart for the caves with Kaz at dawn so that they can get him to a healer, while she and Gavin will continue on to Brynia to see Simeon and then join them in a few weeks. So then Ari overhears an intense argument in the woods where Gemma accuses Gavin of wanting to manipulate and sleep with Ari before she reaches Elias, but Gavin refuses to back down, telling her she has, quote, no fucking idea about his true motives. And that night, at Ari's request to ease Gemma's anger, Gavin pulls her aside for an hour-long conversation to convince her that Ari is safe with him. And when Gemma finally returns to bed, she looks deeply worried and sad, making Ari realize that Gavin likely shared a very heavy secret with her. And if I were Ari here, I be pissed. She Rachel: Yeah. Kate: already knows that every single person around her knows more than her about pretty much everything, including herself. But Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: for Gavin to share something clearly very important and heavy with Gemma and not with Ari would infuriate me if I were her. Rachel: Well, first of all, it couldn't be me because I'd be outside that door, so I would have known everything that happened in that conversation. Kate: Like, it's not even a problem because I'm Rachel: No. Kate: hearing it at the same time as Gemma. Rachel: Yes. But if for some reason I couldn't hear the conversation through what I'm sure is a very creaky wooden floor, I would be insufferable. I would be insufferable. This is not something that I would drop. I'd be like a dog with a bone until I found out how that conversation went. Kate: I'll be honest, I've seen Rachel in this state of mind before when she wants the all No, no no no no no. Rachel: Not about my husband, to be clear, not about my husband. He has no secrets. Kate: But w when we worked together and I had some office tea, you would not let it drop until I told you. So at that at a certain point our bosses just knew that like if one of us knew, the other one knew. Rachel: Well listen, there there's a reason. Kate: Well Rachel: We love happy hour. That's Kate: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Rachel: when the secrets come out. Kate: So anyway, we don't work together i professionally anymore, so we don't have to worry about keeping secrets from each other. But it never worked to begin with, so So the next day, Gemma was uncharacteristically quiet after her talk with Gavin. Neither she nor Gavin would tell Ari what he told her. All we know at this point is that he told Gemma the truth and assured her of the links that he would go to to protect Ari. And we did literally see him kill someone to protect her very recently, so I'd say that that's also some proof. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, and he makes it his mission to feed her and keep her warm and safe. Although I guess maybe a cannibal would do the same thing. Kate: Fatten her up before eating her? Is that what you're implying? Rachel: Just I'm just saying if Gemma doesn't know anything about this person, I mean yeah, that could be he could be just prepping his best meal ever. Kate: Okay, so like like the witch and Hansel and Gretel? Rachel: Yes, basically. Kate: Yes, eat up, Ari, eat up. Rachel: Ha ha ha. No, I mean obviously, yeah. Assuming that's not the case, he surely has shown ha the lengths that he'll go to protect her. Kate: Yeah, I think I think we might have to assume that that's not the case, but you know, thanks for sharing Rachel: A Kate: an alternate option. Rachel: No, I'm saying from Gemma's perspective. I I don't think that he's a cannibal at this point. I'm saying as Gemma's perspective, why she might think Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: that he's not a safe choice. Kate: Right, right. Yeah, 'cause she might assume that he wanted to eat Ari. Right. Well, you know what? Hopefully he does. Just not like for dinner, you know. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yes, that's correct. yeah. Great point. Great point. Mm-hmm. Kate: Wink. Wink. Rachel: Wink. Yeah. Kate: So then Finn, Ezra, Gemma, and Kaz depart towards Avondrell and Damon stays behind while he decides whether to rebuild his tavern or relocate to the Winterton Caves. And to me, I feel like he's probably better off avoiding the caves. We don't know that much about them right now, but like it doesn't seem like he was he would be somebody who would appreciate like the structure of that kind of environment. Rachel: Yeah, we don't really don't know anything about them, but it doesn't sound like a place where you can just come and go as you please. And Damon seems to enjoy doing that. Kate: Yeah, he definitely does. We still don't know where he was before he showed up to let them into the tavern, so Rachel: Where the fuck was Damon? Kate: I don't know. Ari and Gavin have a one-horse moment on their way to Bryinia, since Ari says that she feels safer riding with him. Obviously, this leads to intense yearning from both of them, but Ari is conflicted thanks to her planned marriage to Ilias. Rachel: One horse One horse One horse Kate: I know. Rachel: And they got very cozy on that horse. It was like a full on cuddle session. Kate: It was. Yeah, they were very cozy. Rachel: Like, didn't she fall asleep? Kate: I think she might have, yeah. Rachel: Same. Kate: Mm. Rachel: It was one of the best one horses that I've seen. I thought, I don't know, we're we're starving here. Kate: I know well all we all we get is the tension, but it was it was very good tension. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Kate: 'Cause at at this point they're both like in love with each other and aware of it, but still holding back. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Withholding. Kate: Mm. So noticing Ari's exhaustion and hunger, Gavin detours to a secluded steaming hot spring where they got to ogle each other some more. Rachel: A sexy hot tub session? I know you love a hot tub, Kate. Kate: Did I is that what you got from that scene last time that I loved it? Cause I remember complaining about Rachel: Okay, I love a hot tub. Kate: the hygiene of it. Rachel: I was just Kate: Yeah. I enjoy a listen, I enjoy a hot tub. I like a cooze, you know, but I don't like Rachel: What's a coo it's a cousin. What's a goose? I don't know that slang. Jacuzie. Kate: Jakos Rachel: Yeah, I like a hot tub with the bubbles turned all the way up. Kate: Yeah, no, I I love a hot tub. I just am not as interested in the logistics of fucking in a hot tub. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Kate: That's the issue. Rachel: That's fair. That's fair. Kate: But obviously, not a not an issue here. So Rachel: No, these yeah, the this is the perfect perfect hot tub situation. Kate: So despite not remembering ever learning how to swim, Ari finds that her body just naturally knows the movements to stay afloat, just like she remembered how to ride a horse. And she wonders if it's a lingering memory or the divine power in her veins. And as Rachel and I always say, why not both? I Rachel: Why not? Kate: mean, Raynar is the god of the seas and would likely come in handy when swimming, but also muscle memory is a pretty strong thing, so if she knew how to swim before, those instincts would be hard to erase. Rachel: I can't wait to see her muscle memory re remembering how to fuck. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Those instincts they're gonna come Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: in handy. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Like she's gonna be like Gavin's gonna be all like gentle, b thinking she thinks it's her first time or feels like it's her first time. And then she's gonna use that water power and like tie him to the bed. Kate: Use her water ropes. Rachel: Yes. Kate: I mean, there's so much that she could do with elemental magic in the bedroom. Rachel: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kate: Let's see it. Rachel: LJ Claren, another request. Kate: Just you what, we should just send her a memo, you know? Rachel: Yeah. You know, we might have an in. We should probably just say we might have an Kate: We might should probably put it. Rachel: in for anybody that's interested. Might wanna make sure you're subscribed, you know. Kate: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When Ari expressed worry about whether Ilias would be kind to her, Gavin fiercely promised that if he wasn't nice, he would kill him. Rachel: Problem solved. But also even if he is nice, Gavin will probably kill him, right? Kate: I mean, yeah, I don't think that that's really the deciding factor for whether Gavin kills him or not. I think just his existence next to Ari is putting him in danger. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Ari then asks Gavin what his one wish in life would be, and he replied your freedom. But she wasn't really buying that. Pushing him a little bit further, he said that he just wanted her to truly know who he is Q Iris by the Google dolls. He doesn't want the world to see him, but he wants her to know who is. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Beautiful. This song was literally Rachel: Heartbreaking. Kate: playing on repeat in my head, like through so much of this book. Holding Gavin tightly in the water, Ari cries on his shoulder as she realizes that neither her childhood house nor the caves feel like home. Gavin is her home, but a home she could not keep. Rachel: Daddy's home No. No, no. It's the Kate: Nope. Rachel: not keep part. That's the issue. Kate: Ha ha ha. Gavin carries Ari out of the hot spring, but reluctantly averts his gaze afterwards, leaving Ari feeling rejected. Now Ari asks Gavin about the emerald liquid swirling inside a vial around his neck, which he had been wearing, if you remember, with his rings since they left. She saw it on his neck the previous morning, but Gavin refuses to explain, calling it nothing. And like So sus. What? Rachel: Very sus. Kate: I'm glad that she finally asked because when she noticed it before and didn't say anything, I was like, girl, ask the question. But clearly she's not getting anything from him anyway. And we do learn what this is by the end of the book, but at this point, what did you think this was? Rachel: I don't know. I Kate: Yeah. Rachel: so I read this book over a year ago when it was an indie arc before the indie release. so I honestly Kate: wow. Rachel: don't remember. Like this was literally my first ever arc. I got very lucky. so I don't know. I maybe I thought it was a potion, some kind of medicine. I I maybe I thought it was. I don't know. I d I honestly don't know. Kate: Yeah, this was one of those things where I I had no like connecting threads to even have a guess, really. You know, like Rachel: Yeah. Kate: I don't know. I thought maybe it was something like you're saying, like maybe some kind of like a potion that is like helping him to keep his long life. You know what I mean? Like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: some kind of thing that like sustains the magic that is keeping him alive. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Kate: That was like really the only thing that I was like, I don't know, maybe it's that. But then why would he need to hide that from her? I don't know. So I Yeah. Yeah, right? my God. Who is he? Rachel: Yeah, or like a poly juice potion. Like I might have thought something like that. Yeah. Cause wasn't he sips from like his flask a lot too? And I think that was something that I was like, mm, that sounds familiar. But as it turns out, just likes whiskey. Kate: Just just likes a good whiskey. And can you blame him? The man is tortured constantly. Rachel: No, yeah, he needs his whiskey dick to make it through the day. Kate: But man. As they neared a small village to rest for the night, they encountered a massive beast with iridescent scales, razor-sharp teeth, and blade-like claws that Gavin recognizes as one of Molokai's creatures. Gavin fights the beast, but when it slashes his chest, Ari accesses her power wheel and channels the blue power of Raynar. She manipulates moisture to form liquid ropes that strangle the beast from the inside out. Rachel: This was badass. I will say, of all of her powers, it was an odd choice, but badass nonetheless, right? Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Like I feel like there's other powers she could have chosen, right, in that moment. Kate: Yeah, I mean look she doesn't have a whole lot of familiarity with her powers yet. I think she was just grasping Rachel: Yeah. Kate: at whatever she could. Rachel: Yeah, whichever color she could grab. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: I also thought this scene was giving shield of sparrows, like with the creatures and the creepy crawlies. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kate: Yes. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting, you know, that it's one of Molokai's creatures, right? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So like is there some kind of connection to who is the god of the animals? Rachel: Viridian, right? No. Viridian, no. Kate: No n it's Sultum. Sultum is the god of animals that can communicate with creatures. Rachel: Interesting. Kate: So I don't know. I mean I know that Malachi is like fighting against the Silvarin, or at least that's what we think, but having creatures that kind of like do his bidding Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: sounds like an elemental kind of power. But ultimately, Ari's water ropes is not what wields the final blow. Gavin delivers the final blow and praises Ari's display of power. But she's still terrified and totally shaken by the whole thing. Rachel: Mm. Kate: And of course, when they get to the village, the inn only has one small room left for them to decompress. Rachel: no. Kate: So no, whatever will we do? We just Rachel: Shame. Kate: we just got a one horse trope and now we're rolling right into a one bed trope. Lucky us. As they get ready for bed, they share an intimate moment where Ari gently touches his body to memorize his scars and tattoos. He has 402 tattoos, a faded burn on his arm from his blacksmithing days, a wound on his left hand that he says hurt the most but was worth it, a wide scar on the center of his abdomen, and crosshatched whip scars on his back. Rachel: Huh. Kate: So two of those scars really stood out to me. The hand scar and the abdominal scar, obviously. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So if the hand scar was the one that hurt the most but was worth it, I wonder if that was tied to the deal with Molokai, like his blood oath that allowed him to Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: find Ari, but caused him to essentially give up his soul to become Molokai's butcher. Rachel: Mm-hmm. I think it's definitely that. I mean, I'm imagining a literal deal with the devil where he's signing over his soul in blood. Kate: Right. Yeah. And again, he says it's worth it. So like it got him Rachel: Mm. Kate: to his ultimate goal of finding Ari, but it it hurt him. Like he it Rachel: Yeah. Kate: it like killed him inside to do that. Rachel: I mean he's had to kill many loved ones, you know, like it yeah, of course it hurt. Yeah. Kate: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's shredding his soul to pieces. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm. That was an interesting choice of words. Kate: Huh. Rachel: Something to think about. Kate: Something to think about. So there's that's the hand scar. And then the abdominal scar. I wonder if it's maybe tied in some way to Ari's abdominal scar. Rachel: Hm. Kate: Was something taken from him the way it was taken from her? I mean, obviously that would put a dent in my baby theory. Unless, again, this is a Well, I was gonna say, Rachel: You don't think Gavin? Kate: unless this is a very different kind of book than we think it is. but It would boost my theory that Gavin has or had some kind of magic. Rachel: has to be a connection, right? Like the fact that they both have like matching abdominal scars. Kate: Bike. I don't it I don't know that I believe in coincidences anymore because I talk with you too much and I don't There's no such Rachel: There's no such thing as a coincidence. I Kate: thing as a coincidence when Rachel is involved Rachel: No. I also wanna know who the hell is whipping our man Smith. Is that something that we learn? Kate: I don't think that we do. I just assumed that it was like over the 400 years of being at Molokai's beck and call and having the realization that he signed up for a deal that he didn't realize the reality of, right? He thought that he was signing up for one thing, Molokai twisted it and it's something. completely different and horrific. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: My thought was that like he tried to fight back against that, tried Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: to, you know, not be the monster that Molokai wanted him to be and got punished for that. But we don't actually get, I don't think, like a a full understanding of where those came from. Rachel: Well, it's giving Jamie Frasier, so I hope we get the background on it. Kate: Yes. So Ari has this line when describing her attraction to Gavin that I want to call out. She says, internal wildfire incinerated my senses before I could understand what I was feeling. And we know the next book is called The Incendiary. And last episode Rachel: Hmm. Kate: we mentioned that the volcano that they see would be pretty incendiary. But apparently there's also an internal fire that we should be on the lookout for, too. And Rachel: Mm. Kate: thank God. Because I need this internal fire to go somewhere in the next book, please. Rachel: I hope we get to see Mount Saint Smith erupt. Kate: my god, Rachel. my god. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: That was like like it had the energy of a dad joke, but it was too filthy to be a dad joke. So I don't know what you call that. Ari is overwhelmed with emotion and confesses how much she cares for him, telling him that he makes her feel right after a long time of feeling detached. Gathering her courage, she finally kisses him, but Gavin doesn't kiss her back. Instead, he kisses her forehead, says goodnight, and locks himself outside the room, claiming that if he stayed, then he would never stop. Rachel: This is fucking bullshit. He literally turned her down after she confessed her feelings for him. Like her memories are gone. She is a fresh person at this point and falling for you. And you love her and you're gonna turn her down and destroy her. Like that is bullshit. I'm sorry, it's bullshit. He should have done it a different way. Kate: Yep. Yeah. as somebody with very strong rejection sensitivity, I would I would evaporate in this moment. This kind Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: of rejection from somebody I just confessed my love to. I would die. So just cease to exist. Ari wakes up panting from an intense sex dream about Gavin, only to find him sitting in a chair beside the bed watching her. Is this a trope? He watches her sleep. Rachel: He sees you when you're sleeping. Kate: Santa Smith. Yeah. Gavin makes fun of Ari for making noises in her sleep, so she retaliates by asking if she should moan Elias' name when she ends up sleeping with him. And as you can imagine, this provokes a possessive, furious reaction from Gavin, who calls Elias a smarmy little shit. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: And once again, we're seeing that Gavin has a pretty different impression of Elias than the rest of the group, and I wonder what he knows that the others don't. I mean certainly he knows why Simeon keeps the Wintertons around, so I'm curious. Rachel: Does he? I don't know that we get that. Maybe he does. Kate: Well, I guess we don't know that he knows everything, but we know like Simeon had that line where he says, like, we need the Winterton boy or something, Rachel: Hm. Kate: right? When he's talking to Gavin. So Gavin knows that like Simeon has plans for the Wintertons, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: or like there is a reason that they're around. So I Assume that he knows at least something about their role in Simeon's whole deal, but I guess we don't know for sure. Gavin pins Ari against him, holding her by the jaw and throat, and commands her to never settle for less than a man who worships her, makes her toes curl, and makes her combust with euphoria. Rachel: Hot. That's hot. Kate: May we all be so lucky. After Ari asked if Gavin knew how to do it right, which is a very like funny way of asking if he fucks. Gavin's eyes darkened, which I think is a great microtrope, by the way, the darkening eyes. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: And he tells her to run back into the room and deadbolt the door because she's playing a very dangerous game. Ari is terrified but exhilarated and obeys, locking the door between them. Rachel: I'm enjoying the primal play. I felt like it was a little bit unexpected. and later we also learn that Gavin shattered a mirror in the inn because he was literally so frustrated. I mean, this is an intense moment. Kate: Mm-hmm. It is. But again, this is tension that Gavin is creating for himself. You know? Like he Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kate: could relieve this tension if he really wanted to. So I don't really have that much sympathy for him in this. So while Gavin is cooling off and shattering mirrors, Ari is taking a bath and trying to summon the sea god Reynard's water powers again, but nothing's happening. She realizes that she could only use her powers on impulse and would need Simeon to teach her how to control her magic once they reached Brania. Rachel: Imagining Ari in the bath playing with all of her water animals. Like who needs rubber ducks Kate: Ha ha ha. Rachel: when you have Reynard's powers? Kate: So much fun at bath time. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: On their journey the next day, they're ambushed by insidians, and Gavin pretends to be holding Ari captive. He whispers for her to act terrified and run away when he says the word hunt and hide until he finds her. The Insidians leader approaches them and Gavin recognize him, saying, quote, Cherno, it's been a while. Rachel: Dun dun dun. Kate: To protect Ari, Gavin plays along with the attackers, convincing them that she belongs solely to him and threatening to slit her throat himself if they try anything. Like a if I can't have her nobody can situation. And when Gavin gives Ari the sign, she runs, but stops. She can't quite bring herself to leave Gavin. Gavin single-handedly massacres the Insidians, even decapitating Cherno, the guy that he knew. After the fight, he tells Ari that he has a history of playing multiple sides, but vows that he is strictly on her side, going so far as to place her knife over his heart and telling her to kill him if his loyalty ever falters. Suddenly, two more attackers show up out of nowhere, and while Gavin is killing one, the other attacks Ari, stabbing her in the side. Fueled by rage and adrenaline, Ari shoves her dagger into his throat, successfully killing him, but traumatizing herself in the process. It's baby's first murder. Rachel: It is. But also we need to talk about the insidians. What is motivating them to fight for Molokai? Like, what are they getting out of it? The Wintertons view it as like a good against evil, and we're obviously seeing these Insidians be evil, right? Like they're trying to Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: attack Ari. but why? Like, did Molokai somehow just find all of the evil people in Nirada? Or Are they somehow getting like Molokai's power and it's like eating their souls and making them evil? or is he like controlling them somehow? I don't know. When Ari kills the man that's attacking her, she fixates on the forest green eyes, and I think they describe them as almost like pleading with her. And it just makes me Kate: Mm. Rachel: wonder if like the actual souls are trapped inside somehow. Kate: think that that would make a lot of sense, because the best kind of an army is one that doesn't have free will. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Right? Like having a bunch of soldiers that are like have free will and can technically do what they want would not make for a super powerful army. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: it would be in Molokai's benefit if he was just controlling all of them through his magic. So I think that makes a lot of sense. I hadn't really thought about that, but the way that that you describe it of like his eyes, first of all, again, Rachel: Mm. Kate: the forest green eyes, which obviously people have green eyes, but it's not like the most common eye color. And the the pleading look yeah. What what color eyes do you have, Rachel? Rachel: No that we would call them for a screen, but I'm just saying. Kate: Well, flutter those lashes. But either way, yeah, I think that that would would make a lot of sense, that he just has this like mindless army of like hypnotized Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: captives, I guess, at his disposal. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Interested to learn Kate: I don't know. Rachel: more about that. Kate: Yeah. I mean, so yeah, that that's a possibility. But we also have seen in a lot of different cases how people can just be manipulated pretty easily to do unspeakable things. Rachel: Or or just become their worst selves because those in power are their worst selves. So it kinda gives them like the permission to do it. Like that might be what's happening with Malachi's army. Malachi's so evil and the rest of them it's like feeding into their most disgusting impulses. Kate: Yeah. It's very true. So it's a good question to ask of what the motivation is, but Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I like to think that maybe it's a combination of both those things. Like maybe he is keeping them in line with his power, but there could also just be really good propaganda that is Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: getting them to somehow believe that this is in their best interest. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So after the attack they are on their way to Bryinia again, but since they lost their horse to poison arrows, Gavin lifts Ari into his arms to carry her to a cabin a few hours away. Rachel: Swoon. Kate: When they arrive at the cabin, Gavin kicks the door in, another microtrope. Rachel: Micro trope. Kate: And tells Ari that she is the most breathtaking thing in the world, saying, Quote, if I can't spend eternity looking at you, I'd rather my soul cease to exist. You are the single most breathtaking thing in this world. Rachel: Okay, yes, this is a beautiful quote, but I have concerns. Does it foreshadow Gavin's ending? His fate? If they are tied up with the gods somehow, and Smith clearly can't get to heaven with everything he's done, I'm worried his fate is some kind of king of the underworld situation, which he's happy to. do because he can somehow gaze upon Ari, like if she's in the heavens or just on earth, like he's still able to see her. I don't know. Or like maybe he's gonna be trapped in a cage, but he can see Ari 'cause she's the queen of the underworld. I don't know. I'm spiraling over it, but that line concerns me. Kate: Does it concern you or does it intrigue you because you want the story to go to the underworld? Rachel: just seems dark. It just seems dark. I don't know. Kate: Yeah, I mean it's possible that all of the stories that we read end up in the underworld but It would be a pretty big coincidence. But I do think that it's it's possible. He this is not the first time that we've gotten glimpses of him talking about his death and Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: following her after his death and, you know, just being very macabre. But I don't know where it's gonna go. I certainly don't want him to die and become some kind of lord of the underworld if Ari isn't with him. Rachel: Right. Right. Agree. Mm-hmm. Kate: I want them to be together wherever they end up. So poor traumatized Ari is desperate to get the blood of the insidian that she killed off of her, but she can't submerge her fresh wound in a bath. So of course, Gabin bathes her. Wee woo wee woo, trope alert, he bathes her. Rachel: Sexy sponge baths? Ha ha ha Kate: Is that possible? Rachel: Just saying, somehow LJ Claren made sexy sponge bath a thing. Kate: I I guess she did. I don't think I've ever really thought about a sponge bath outside of like a nursing home, but I guess it can be sexy if the right person's doing it. As Gavin cleans her, he notices the scar below her belly button, which she believes is from a childhood wound. Which we don't believe. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: We have doubts. But that's what she thinks, because that's what Eloyn told her. But when he sees it, it makes him inexplicably angry, and he suddenly covers her with a sheet, abruptly killing the sexual tension between them. So it seems like he knows what this scar is from. To make him that upset. But Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: unfortunately, his reaction doesn't really give me that much further clarification for my dueling theories of what was taken from her. 'Cause I think that he would be pretty pissed whether a baby was taken from her or her power was stolen. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: still not really sure there. Rachel: Yeah, if he doesn't know, I do think that he has suspicions, obviously, like so we'll see. Kate: Right. Yeah, that was like an intense reaction to a scar Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: if he has no idea what's going on there. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: clue us in, Gavin, 'cause we wanna know. But don't worry, the tension returns when they go to bed and Ari begs Gavin to hold her. He agrees, but they keep it strictly PG. Well, at least until Ari wakes up in the middle of the night with Gavin's heart on pressed against her. But sadly, they do nothing about it. Womp womp. Gavin tells her to be good and go back to sleep. And then when she wakes up, he's gone. Rachel: That is some fuck boy shit. Kate: Mm-hmm. Ari wakes up to find a note from Gavin saying he's out taking care of some business, but promising that he'll be back. When night falls and Gavin still hasn't returned, Ari drinks several beers to dull her pain and anxiety. She's dancing around the cabin when Gavin returns. Rachel: Get it, girl. Ari is 20 years old and just spent her first night with a man who bailed before she woke up. I probably would have done the same thing. Like, I'm just saying. She can't leave. Kate: Yeah, yeah. Rachel: She's like, she's still an invalid, so she can't just go off on her own. Cause obviously we would all just say, get out of there. This guy's a loser. But Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: instead, she's like, Yeah, I'll drink what's in your liquor cabinet. One thing that we should call out here though, she looked at the one bottle of clear liquid in the cabinet. Was that Gavin's poison? Because when he comes back and he looks at it, like he looks concerned specifically at that bottle. And she's drinking beers. Kate: Well, you mean the poison that he has around his neck that we learn about? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Well, that is described as like a swirling green liquid. Rachel: Okay, so it was just like liquor. Then he just w he was just concerned that she was really drunk. Okay. Yeah. Kate: Yeah, I think I think maybe he was Yeah, like getting into the hard stuff, maybe. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So Gavin confiscates her beer, playfully calling her an angry little lush, and commands her to sit, eat bread, and hydrate. Ari tells Gavin how worried she was, not knowing where he was. When she asks what he would have done if the roles were reversed and he couldn't find her, he says, I would have ripped the world apart until I found you. Which kind of sounds exactly like what he did do for the past 400 years. Rachel: Literally. Kate: Like so yeah, I guess we know exactly what he would have done in the same circumstances. Gavin says he spent the day tracking down the insidian's camp and slitting everyone's throat to ensure news of Ari never reaches Molokai. Rachel: This was wildly necessary, but Gavin, really, you couldn't have just told Ari that before you left. Kate: Right. Like he could he couldn't have just said, I'm going to make sure that nobody survived. I don't know. Like Rachel: It it just goes to show that even if they're four hundred years old, men They're not always connecting the dots, not always thinking through all the steps. Kate: They are not communicating. They are not communicating. Rachel: Yeah. Lack of emotional intelligence. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah, which apparently is not something that you learn over time. Cause he certainly would have had plenty of that. But at least he wasn't with another woman, and Ari is relieved about that. She starts to flirt with him by putting his hands on her, and he's visibly aroused, but still resists her temptation, much to all of our dismay. After Ari promises no funny business, Gavin joins her in bed, immediately spooning her from behind and kissing her head. And despite being hard literally all night, they don't get down to anything interesting. And this slow burn is torture. Rachel: but it is a platonic-ish sleeping trope. Kate: Okay, a trope is not enough to make me not just so confused about how Gavin is once again hard for hours, I guess, and still not willing to do anything with Ari, despite her definitely being open to it and wanting that. I mean, he has some Herculean control here. But I just don't understand it. And Ari wakes up relieved this time to find that Gavin is still with her, and he smiles and tells her that she smells like strawberries and the sun. And if all romanticy men smell like pine and musk or some combination of that, I guess maybe all romanticy women smell like strawberries, because this is the second FMC in a row that has smelled like this. And I wonder if she'd taste like strawberries too, the way that Marin apparently did. Rachel: Okay, but I actually believe it of Ari because I believe she's either a literal angel or goddess, and she also loves a bath. So I think she could smell and taste like strawberries. On the flip side, Marin, despite also being magical, spends her days riding a wolf and avoiding water at all costs. Kate: That that's true. The the imagery for Marin in the Wolves of Ruin series definitely fought hard against the way that they described her smell or her taste. So Rachel: She was literally like a cat. Sh she was like a cat. You could not get her in a bath. Kate: So maybe maybe Ari has more likelihood of actually smelling like strawberries, but I'm not sure what kind of bath and body work shit is available at this remote cabin that they're sitting in. Ari is upset thinking about her inevitable parting with Gavin when she gets to the caves and has to marry Ilias. Seemingly desperate to get more time with Gavin, Ari asks to delay their meeting with Simeon for another day so that they can celebrate the winter solstice together. Her wound is still healing, and Gavin asks why she hasn't used her power to heal herself, and she says that she'd rather save her energy to help others, which worries Gavin. He tells her, quote, I don't know exactly what this world, this war, will require of you, but I fear there will come a time when you feel the need to sacrifice yourself in one way or another to save others. I fear that your power will take too much from you, and that you'll let it. Promise me you won't. But Ari refuses, saying she'll do what she has to do. Rachel: Again, this is so concerning. Yes, it foreshadows her actions later in the book, but do you think it foreshadows a larger sacrifice later in the series? Kate: I can't rule it out. I mean, she's literally saying she's gonna do whatever she has to do, and we know Rachel: Yeah. Kate: that she is very self sacrificing and Rachel: Mm. Kate: will do whatever she feels she needs to to protect others. And so yeah, I think anything is on the table. I mean, we're gonna see her sacrifice herself pretty Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: soon. So yeah. And when they do get to Brinia, Ari shops for a dress for the celebration. And let's take a little moment for the fit. Rachel: Let's do it. Kate: Ari's dress is a beautiful sea green silk, which she fills out nicely with the weight that she's gained since leaving Warwick. Rachel: Ooh la la. Kate: And here's how she described herself. The dress had thin shoulder straps and hugged the curves of my waist. The sleek fabric hinted generously at the shape of my breasts, and beneath the silk on my chest subtle hints of my peaks pointed in the chilly winter air against the dress's cow neck when I moved. The look was elegant and daring, sensual yet regal. Rachel: my gosh, this dress, it sounds so good. Kate: It sounds so good. Like she sounds gorgeous and sexy as hell. Like she's literally describing how her nipples are pointing out through Rachel: Yeah. Kate: this thin, beautiful fabric. Plus, she knows that Gavin's favorite color is green, so he's probably gonna jizz his pants when he sees her. Rachel: I do love that she picked this dress with Gavin's favorite color in mind. We've all had that experience of shopping for a dress before a big date, and we get to see Ari experience it for the first time, at least in her memory, her first time. And it's just such a relatable moment. Kate: Speaking of Gavin, he's wearing all black and Arya describes him as looking like, quote, a tragic fallen warrior. And he's so bricked up when he sees her, he says it's hard to breathe. Rachel: I'm finding it hard to breathe thinking about Gavin. I love a man in all black. Kate: He always sounds sexy. Like it's always it's always sounds simple, but he Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: can pull off anything and make it look so good. I'm positive of that. Gavin takes Ari to a tavern on the coast for a special dinner. He shares stories about his upbringing by his adoptive parents Isaac and Eden and his late friend Victor. They share a dance, and Ari confesses how much she'll miss Gavin when they are forced to part ways. Then the mood shifts, and suddenly he's begging for her forgiveness, telling her he's been lying to her. Simeon is not in Brynea, and he never was. Dun dun dun. Rachel: My man, this was not the move. there was definitely a way to do this and waiting until your very romantic dinner was not it. Like what a way Kate: Seriously. Rachel: to ruin the vibe. And maybe you should have consulted your friend Damon because I bet he would have had some better advice. Kate: my god, if Damon could see what Gavin did on this date, he would be devastated, first of all, for Rachel: He'd be shaking his head. He'd be shaking his head. He's over there at the bar Kate: I mean Rachel: having a sip, being like, motherfucker, I told I told him not to do that. I told him not to do that. Kate: They were having such a beautiful night. And then he's just like can't contain his lies anymore. He's been lying to her from the moment that he saw her. And suddenly it's too much for him to bear. It just like wait until you get home at least. Gotta Rachel: Yeah. Kate: ruin dinner. So obviously Ari is reeling from Gavin's confession, and she runs to the beach to get away from him and the celebration that she just can't really stand to be around anymore. Gavin follows her and admits that he couldn't help but take some extra time with her. And somehow Ari seems surprised to hear this, even though he has spent pretty much the entire time that they're together absolutely rock hard. But she's like, Well, I didn't know that he liked being around me. Rachel: Shocking. Kate: And it turns out that Gavin has been lying since the very beginning. Simeon never even gave him orders to bring Ari to Bryinia. Gavin was meant to bring her straight to the caves, but he wanted to give her time to eat, train, and adjust to her freedom. And when Ari demands that Gavin swear on her life that he will not hold her against her will, we get this great line from him: quote, I will fight for your freedom and happiness as long as there is breath in my body. And as he said before, maybe even a lack of breath in his body wouldn't stop him. Rachel: I just feel like maybe he buried the lead here. Ari doesn't learn until the end of the book that she's been asleep and it's all Simeon's fault. Like, start with that, my man. You've already earned her trust. Kate: Right. Like you can justify your actions a little bit more. I mean, I like the the reasons that he gives her here of like wanting to give her time to adjust and to train and not Rachel: Mm. Kate: be starving anymore, like those are all valid reasons. But can we not also say that like, hey, I wanted to maybe protect you a little bit from this man Rachel: Right. Kate: who has seriously sus intentions with you? Rachel: Right. Kate: I don't know. He again, communication does not seem to be his strong suit. He has a lot of really great lines, a lot of really poetic, flowery language that he likes to use to describe his feelings, but the actual communication of information from this man is not great. The facts are not getting across. but ultimately Ari forgives him for lying to her and recognizes that the extra time helped her be prepared for what she would face in the caves, and she loves him for protecting her. She ends up begging him to sleep with her, literally begging him, telling him that she wants him to be her first so that she can live her life before going to her husband. Rachel: So I just want to take a moment here. I've seen some discourse online about the book specifically criticizing this scene and Ari begging Smith to bone her and how it tips the line of consent. And that's just wild to me. Gavin has clearly stated that he wants Ari. He has set he has said it and he has indicated it with many actions. He is attracted to Ari and he is in love with Ari. Her begging him to be with her feels like a very vulnerable moment from a very confused woman who is receiving very mixed signals. so I certainly wouldn't categorize the book as problematic because of it. I think it's just showing a very real reaction to the information and the experiences that she's going through. What do you think? Kate: Well, I I agree that she is just reeling from all of this information that he's just shared with her. And again, he has told her himself many times that he's desperate to be with her and that the only thing holding him back is like this idea that he doesn't want to make things harder for her when she has to go to the caves and be with Ilias. So I think f from her perspective it seems like she thinks that he's holding back for her benefit. And this is Rachel: Right. Kate: her kind of just saying, like, no, I want this. I'm not Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: like it's not gonna break me. It's gonna help me. I want to be with you. Don't let that be the thing that holds you back. Rachel: Right. And it's also not like she like grabbed his dick when he didn't want it. Like she's begging him, but she's not like forcing herself on him. Kate: Yeah. I so I I didn't read it as problematic in that way. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: also the power dynamic is certainly in his favor in this situation too. Rachel: Right. Right. Kate: But I don't know. Sex is always really complicated. And I think, you know, he doesn't communicate very well and she doesn't know who she is or what's going on ninety-five percent of the time. Rachel: Ha ha Kate: So there's just a lot going on. Ari calling Ilias her husband does send Gavin into a rage, and we get some more top-tier yearning from him when he tells her, You are the air in my lungs, you are light and life, you are the reason I open my eyes every morning and brave this world, you are the tonic to my nightmares, the angel that defies my demons. He's a poet. But Rachel: Swoon. Kate: But there's so many specific things in there that again, I have to ask, is he just very poetic and very dramatic? Or are there hints in the specific words that he uses? Like, what nightmares does Gavin have? I thought nightmares Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: quaked in his presence. Rachel: Right. And angels and demons. That's very powerful imagery. I mean, Kate: Yeah. Rachel: he's referred to Ari as his angel multiple times. Definitely makes me think that, maybe she's something of the sorts. Kate: She's she's something. She's something powerful. She's something very sacr self sacrificing. I feel Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: like that would kind of fit the narrative of an angel. But I don't know. I I think that there's more to these quotes that we're getting from him than just some flowery language. I think that some of these specific words that he uses might be important because he knows all. way more than he's letting on. Certainly more than he's communicating. But once again, Gavin insists that he wants her desperately, but that he won't make things harder for her by sleeping with her. So, like we said, he thinks that he's doing this for her good. But Ari keeps trying, kissing him and getting him down on the bed to get hot and heavy, which I think that part might be where some people were feeling like maybe she was pushing him further. Rachel: Mm. Kate: But Gavin is still really into it at this point. He's caressing her, and he stops her briefly to lock eyes and tell her how much he loves her. Ari feels an overwhelming rush of love in return, but can't bring herself to say it out loud, fearing that it will irreparably break her inside. As he's fingering her, so we're getting Rachel: Something that she did not force him to do in any way. Kate: She didn't. He's very much into it. But also, this is like the most spice that we've gotten so far Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: in this moment. So he's fingering her, and Ari begs him to take all of her. Take it further. Let's continue on this great ride that we're on right now. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: She says, Show me that you love me. But ultimately, he pulls away again. He pulls his fingers away. Traps her wrists above her head, gives her a soft kiss, and breaks her heart by whispering a final, resolute no. Which Ari accepts very reluctantly. She's just devastated, but she accepts. But is this man a masochist? Genuinely, the lengths that he goes in this book to not sleep with Ari when she's literally begging for it makes me think that he. Just likes the feeling of blue balls? I don't know. Rachel: I mean, Ari clearly loves him. She has admitted to herself that she loves him. I think Gavin is just trying to do one good thing after all the evil that he's been forced to do. And after all that Ari has suffered, he wants to make sure that all of his actions protect Ari. Even if he's protecting her from herself. And even if that's not what she wants, that's where his mind's at. So I understand where he's coming from. That being said. It doesn't make this scene any less difficult to read. Like as the reader who thinks that the slow burn has finally reached its peak. I remember my review Kate: Yeah. Rachel: after my first read specifically. I called this out and called it a lack of sexual climax, so to speak. but on the second and third read, I do think it was the best choice for the characters. I do. Kate: Yeah, I know. I mean, I've I've been complaining this whole time. I'm not always very patient with a slow burn. But I have to agree, honestly. And that is hard for me to say. But I I do think that the fragile state that she's in, like she might not be starving anymore. She might be physically stronger and starting to access her powers and learn more about herself and you know this world that she's been kind of thrust into. But she's still fragile emotionally. She still Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: doesn't really know. what is going on, what her role is in all of this, who he is, you know, like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: he did just drop this bomb on her that he's been lying to her Rachel: Yeah. Kate: for the entire time that she has known him in this version of herself. And so yeah, I do think that he made the right call in stopping things and not pushing it further as much as that pains me because she sex complicates things. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Always. It's fun. It's gr it can be so great, but it does always complicate things, even if you don't want it to. and so I can't believe I'm saying this. But yeah, he was right not to sleep with her. Rachel: waiting for marriage. Kate: Well I don't okay, let's let's not get crazy. Rachel: Waiting for her to remember that she's married. Kate: my god. Please don't please don't make me wait that much longer. So after all of this, Ari is understandably embarrassed after his repeated refusal, but reminds him that he once said there was no line that he wouldn't cross for her, to which he says he will not cross this specific line. So maybe we don't talk in such absolutes than Gavin. Hmm? How about that? All that flowery language is great, but You are giving her a lot of mixed signals here, okay? So Rachel: Smith and LJ Claren are edging us. Kate: For an entire book, yes. And in all of this, Ari still believes that part of his motivations is his loyalty to his wife. So she assumes that she will never have his full devotion and tells him they will head directly to the caves tomorrow. Like she's been rejected. She feels like he's still attached to his wife, and she just wants to move on So At Ari's command, Gavin reluctantly leaves, he returns hours later, and then there's this knock at the door and a man named Felix informs Gavin that a trade has been offered. Ari pulls a Rachel and Eavesdrops through a crack at the door. Rachel: That's my girl. Kate: She's not gonna wait for him to tell her what he's talking about now. And again and Rachel: Mm-hmm. Fool her once. Kate: maybe again, but not this time. Rachel: Mm. Kate: She overhears Felix reveal that a camp three hours south knows Gavin has Simeon's daughter and wants to trade Ari because they have your wife. Gavin coldly takes Felix outside to discuss the matter. So her eavesdropping really only got her so far. Rachel: Mm. Kate: Terrified that Gavin might betray her, Ari searches his leather bag and uncovers an old journal containing a stack of letters spanning generations of the Morton family. By calculating the logged dates, Ari figures out that Gavin has been desperately searching for his captured wife for over 400 years. Ari now realizes why Gavin had to refuse her and feels deep sorrow for his 400 lonely years of searching. She recognizes that while her betrothed waits for an ideal queen, Gavin is waiting only for his true love. Driven by the desire to bring Gavin happiness and protect her people, Ari decides that she can make her own deal with Molokai. Recognizing her physical resemblance to Molokai's lost love, Christabel, she plans to offer herself and her powers in exchange for Gavin's wife and the safety of Nirda. Sticking to her stance that she will do what is necessary to save others, Ari writes a final note for Gavin. Steals a horse from the stables so that Gavin can't easily follow her, and rides south toward Molokai's camp. And this is an insane move, honestly. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: She knows barely anything about Molokai, about the war, and most importantly, about herself. To sacrifice Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: herself without knowing what exactly she's actually offering is, I think, very short-sighted. And also, what makes her think that Molokai would honor any deal that she made with him? Like she's just assuming Rachel: Mm. Kate: that she's gonna offer this great trade and that he's gonna accept and honor it. What What exactly would make her think that? And Rachel: Right. Kate: I think I'm gonna blame Elowin for this instinct in Ari because she's just so desperate to save people because Eloyn made her believe that Philip and Ollie's deaths were her fault, and she feels like she needs to redeem herself somehow from that, even if it's a foolhardy attempt. Rachel: That's a really good point. It really shows what a fucked up parent can do to a person. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: so Ari hopefully can get some therapy in the incendiary. But talk about a miscommunication trope. If your favorite thing, as you've been talking about this whole episode. But if Gavin had at least revealed that she was his wife, we could have avoided the heartbreak and Kate could have got her spicy scene. But alas, Kate: Mm. Rachel: these tropes are the reason we love these stories so much. And I just have a feeling that this is going to be a big payoff slow burn with how filthy Gavin's mouth is. At least like fingers crossed. Kate: I really hope so. I hope that Rachel: Yeah. Kate: all of this tension is resolved in the next book. I mean again, the incendiary, the name of the book, is promising some heat. So I'm I'm looking forward to it. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mount Saint Smith. Mount Saint Smith. Kate: Erupt that volcano Rachel: right, Kate, should we count down our tropes? Kate: Yes we should. We got some really good ones in this episode. Rachel: So we have massive library. We have he bathes her. He trains her. Eyes darkening. That's a micro trope. Run. That's a microtrope. Torturously slowburn. Self-sacrifice, one horse, one bed at the inn, he watches her sleep, and a miscommunication troupe. and also a library. A man with a library. Kate: That's that's number one, the massive library. Rachel: It was such a long list that I forgot by Kate: Huh. Rachel: the time we got to the bottom. Alright, so we have eleven tropes. That's our count for this this episode. It's pretty hefty list. Kate: And you know, there there's some classics in there. Some really Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: good classics. So thank you for joining us on this week's episode of Deep Trope. Join us next week for our final episode of The Silversmith, covering chapters thirty one through thirty six, plus the epilogue. Rachel: And if you've enjoyed this episode, we'd love if you could please take a few minutes to leave us a five star review. We're a new podcast, and every review and follower helps so much. And we also want to get to know you. So follow us on social media at Deep Trope Podcast and drop us a comment, slide into our DMs with your theory on what's motivating the Insidians and possibly what type of spice we might see in. Future books. Kate's wagging her eyebrows. Kate: I don't know what sound effect that would be, but yeah, they're going crazy. Rachel: I'm chicken pound. Right, see you next week. Kate: Bye.