Latest / Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós / Beyond the Beanbags: Real Talk on Business Culture

Transcript

Beyond the Beanbags: Real Talk on Business Culture · Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós

• 0:04
  Nicky: Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nikki and.
• 0:08
  Nicky: Ness.
• 0:11
  Ness: We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nikki and I both work and live, both work and live.
• 0:31
  Ness: I reckon everybody I know perhaps it's just my circle has seen the movie.
• 0:33
  Nicky: The Castle.
• 0:34
  Nicky: Have you seen the movie, nick?
• 0:35
  Nicky: Yes, yes, I did see it a bit later in life, but I saw it.
• 0:38
  Ness: Fabulous, Because what I want to talk about is that classic line that Dennis the lawyer says when he's up in the high court of Australia, when he goes, you know it's just the vibe and ever since then, like every other line in that movie, has become something that we throw away, that we make comment on, and I kind of feel like we talk about that a lot, nikki, in relation to the vibe a business has when we're particularly talking about culture, and it's funny because it is kind of like it's not necessarily really clear what the vibe means.
• 1:13
  Ness: But I thought today we might be able to unpack that a little bit to help any business owners or leaders out there who are really focusing on growing a strong culture in order to be able to get the best out of everyone, so everyone's thriving, everyone's at their peak performance.
• 1:28
  Ness: So I might throw to you, nick, and go if you were to describe what vibe means, where would you start?
• 1:35
  Ness: I?
• 1:36
  Nicky: love this question, ness, because we talk you and I talk a lot about the vibe.
• 1:40
  Nicky: We have a look at this in our business health checks that we run for our clients and we really break it down to the overall vibe.
• 1:46
  Nicky: And then we also look at the sales vibe, and what we mean by that is what's the feeling, what's the energy that people have being a part of your team, being a part of your business, and is it?
• 2:00
  Nicky: We talk about unspoken ground rules?
• 2:02
  Nicky: Is what we say we're going to do actually reflected in our unspoken action?
• 2:08
  Nicky: It's all of the things that are happening, not just seen behavior, but the unseen behavior.
• 2:15
  Nicky: So there's an analogy that we like to use around your culture is kind of like a tree.
• 2:21
  Nicky: It's a big, beautiful tree and the healthiness of the tree, or the health of the tree, is actually dependent on the health of the roots.
• 2:30
  Nicky: And the roots of the tree we can't see, but there's a lot of tendering and nurturing and watering that needs to happen in order for those roots to thrive and therefore the tree, the trunk of the tree, the leaves of the tree will thrive also.
• 2:45
  Nicky: We actually we did a big blog on this, so I might the tree, the trunk of the tree, the leaves of the tree will thrive also.
• 2:45
  Nicky: We actually we did a big blog on this, so I might put the link in the show notes if you're interested to learn more about this, because it's the roots of the tree that impact what we call the vibe.
• 2:56
  Nicky: It's you might smile, you might say hello to somebody and good morning.
• 3:00
  Nicky: You might smile, but there might be actually a defensiveness or a sarcasm in the energy around that.
• 3:06
  Nicky: As an example and actually the conversation we had with Leah Mehta really spoke to this as well there's another link in the show notes, thank you.
• 3:14
  Ness: Cause, you know.
• 3:17
  Nicky: I'll forget.
• 3:17
  Nicky: I get excited in the moment.
• 3:18
  Nicky: So it's these types of things, it's the unseen as well as the scene, and I think the easiest way to really look at it is it is that vibe, it's that feeling.
• 3:28
  Nicky: Sometimes we just can feel that something's off, even though we can't quite put our finger on it.
• 3:35
  Nicky: Or we can't quite put our finger on it.
• 3:37
  Nicky: But it's awesome, it's really great there's a vibe.
• 3:42
  Ness: Absolutely.
• 3:42
  Ness: And it reminds me of when we talk about the culture that we set and the standards that we set for our own businesses and who we are as people.
• 3:51
  Ness: Let's face it.
• 3:51
  Ness: And then I love that quote.
• 3:54
  Ness: You know the standard that you overlook is the standard you accept.
• 3:56
  Ness: So there's a manufacturing business that I used to work for and with.
• 4:02
  Ness: I didn't work in there, although I did don the little shower cap and the white coat one day to go out into the boot, into the back store but anyway.
• 4:11
  Ness: So we used to talk about the cleanliness was really important to the whole business.
• 4:17
  Ness: But if everyone's left work and you're running late and you go past an overflowing bin and you just go, I couldn't be bothered dealing with that.
• 4:25
  Ness: Right now, Are you really living the standard?
• 4:27
  Ness: Because sometimes it can be about the vibe's got to be felt across the building, across the whole business, and it's got to be something that everybody moves towards, whether you're there on your own and not being seen by anyone or not.
• 4:40
  Ness: And it reminds me of a client that I worked with a few years ago, so they called me in to do some work with them about their vision, their mission and their values and as a whole business.
• 4:50
  Ness: They had different locations.
• 4:52
  Ness: They brought them all together for the day and we did this wonderful process and took them through and there was a lot of energy in the room and they landed on some amazing values and that's how they decided as a team that they were going to live and breathe every day.
• 5:06
  Ness: And then I remember discussions with the business owner following that, where he was talking to me about a particular staff member and this is where it gets tricky, because you talk about the seen behavior like the attitude, kind of stuff.
• 5:19
  Ness: So this team member was producing quite good quality work and meeting KPIs.
• 5:25
  Ness: But the flip of that this quote that I never forget him saying was I feel like I'm being held hostage in my own business Because he was scared to have an open conversation with her because the way that she would respond to avoid the conversation was to do tears and so he would feel awkward and uncomfortable and it would all shut down and the whole issue wouldn't be dealt with.
• 5:47
  Ness: But the reality was they talked about or they created values around openness, honesty, integrity and positivity, and this person wasn't living that value.
• 5:59
  Ness: They definitely weren't being positive in their attitude.
• 6:03
  Ness: There was no opportunity to have an open conversation with this team member and so they kind of ended up in this place and it did drag on for a little while because of his desire to be liked by everyone and to really like we'd had this great day and he wanted everybody to be engaged.
• 6:18
  Ness: And I think that once he did have the brave, difficult conversation and they landed at a place where it wasn't a fit and she left, that he got to realize that the impact that was having behind the scenes with the rest of the team was actually really toxic to what they had decided that they wanted to be.
• 6:37
  Ness: And so this is where it's so important that what we say about how we work and the experience and feeling that all of our team have as a match for that, that's when your vibe's really rocking right, that's when you are aligned to the walk, the talk.
• 6:55
  Ness: It's all about saying this is what we stand for, we are so proud of it, and everybody on the team is in agreement with that.
• 7:03
  Ness: Because I think the flip of that is it can damage the culture, it can be toxic.
• 7:09
  Ness: And then there's a flow on impact into the customer base, because I think you can't have that brewing under the surface without that coming out somewhere.
• 7:18
  Ness: So, Nikki, what have you seen when you've been out there in the world?
• 7:21
  Ness: I know you've done a lot of sales and leadership and all of that kind of thing.
• 7:25
  Ness: When it comes to the coaching space, when have you seen this play out?
• 7:28
  Ness: Where the vibe isn't a match for what we say the vibe is or what we say the culture that we've created is?
• 7:34
  Ness: Yeah.
• 7:34
  Nicky: I've definitely seen it a lot in the sales world.
• 7:38
  Nicky: So, as we all know, I have a vast experience as a sales rep, sales leader, leading sales teams and then a sales coach.
• 7:45
  Nicky: And it's such a classic, actually, environment for this because there's the classic anyone who's been in a sales, specifically sales environment probably business environment that sales person that is just 100% focused on hitting target.
• 7:59
  Nicky: Now, of course, as salespeople, we need to be focused on hitting target, but that is not the only definition of what high performance is.
• 8:07
  Nicky: There's a really good model by Elkium, andy Meikle, and he talks about that high performance.
• 8:14
  Nicky: The definition of high performance is actually 70, 20, 10, and 70% comes down to the actual results.
• 8:20
  Nicky: So, in this instance, hitting target, getting revenue in the door then 20% comes down to being a person of influence.
• 8:26
  Nicky: So how are you being in your team?
• 8:28
  Nicky: How are you leading with influence?
• 8:30
  Nicky: Are you open and transparent and wanting the people around you to succeed as well?
• 8:34
  Nicky: And then 10% comes down to being a person of grace, and grace is who.
• 8:39
  Nicky: The way that I look at it and I hope I do it justice is that internal 10% is like the internal mindset piece.
• 8:45
  Nicky: How do we respond or react when we're under pressure, do we throw our toys out of the court and chuck a tantrum, or do we go?
• 8:53
  Nicky: Okay, I'm going to be the graceful duck and find the room, the person that I can vent to behind closed doors in a really resourceful way, still being human about it.
• 9:01
  Nicky: And so the examples that I really relate to is seeing the salesperson that says that actually, 100% of high performance or peak performance is hitting my target at cost of everything else, and you could insert that to everything.
• 9:15
  Nicky: Anything is 100% hitting my goal at cost of everything else, and what I mean by that is in sales.
• 9:21
  Nicky: It could be at cost of building a genuine long-term relationship with clients.
• 9:24
  Nicky: Just tell them anything to get them in the door and get their money and then don't deliver as an example, which is terrible and not good business.
• 9:32
  Nicky: Or at cost of stealing sales from team members or being dodgy internally.
• 9:38
  Nicky: There are people out there like that, and it's really interesting when I have run workshops in the past around defining what is high performance and ask a question who's a high performer?
• 9:50
  Nicky: That you know like a really well-known one?
• 9:52
  Nicky: What comes to your mind, ness, if I say who are high performers that we all would look at when I say we all, a lot of the population might look at and go oh yeah, they're a high performer who comes to mind for you.
• 10:03
  Ness: I guess it's sort of the people that are really in the public eye for having either multiple businesses or jobs that have a huge amount of responsibility.
• 10:13
  Ness: So I always think of Barack Obama and that example of you know he wears the same suit every day because it's one less decision.
• 10:21
  Ness: And you think about you know he's the leader of the biggest country in the world and all that kind of thing.
• 10:26
  Ness: Or I think of people like Richard Branson and Steve Jobs and Oprah Winfrey those kind of people like they just get out and get stuff done right.
• 10:35
  Nicky: Yes, I think I'm also thinking.
• 10:37
  Nicky: I just went to the Matildas game last night in Brisbane so I'm upset with the World.
• 10:40
  Nicky: Cup right now, which might be old news by the time.
• 10:43
  Nicky: This goes to air Athletes sports people, you know Sam Kerr musicians like.
• 10:47
  Nicky: There's so many high performers out there.
• 10:48
  Nicky: But what if, I asked you, is Trump a high performer?
• 10:52
  Ness: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question, isn't it?
• 10:55
  Ness: Well, in some way it depends on your definition Somebody who gets stuff done, yes, whether it agrees with my morals or not, you know so.
• 11:05
  Nicky: I would say yes.
• 11:06
  Nicky: Yes, it's a tricky one and I put you on the spot with this, but that's it Depends on who you ask, when you ask his supporters, when you ask yeah, and also depending on when we ask as well, you know, with the political climate, but we could ask this of so many different types of examples and interesting in the room live there's a lot of different controversial examples that are thrown up and again it comes down to the vibe.
• 11:31
  Nicky: So it does come down to what actually does high performance mean for you and your business and for you and your team, and are you and your team delivering to that?
• 11:40
  Nicky: So, even going back to the sales example, there are some businesses out there that that is high performance, 100% based on revenue results at cost of everything else.
• 11:48
  Nicky: There are some people out there that do think and believe that Trump is a high performer or whatever, and this isn't a political statement, people each to their own and all of that jazz.
• 11:58
  Nicky: But the importance here is we're not saying what's right or wrong.
• 12:02
  Nicky: We're saying are you really clear on A, what you want the vibe of your business to be, in other words, what is your definition of high performance?
• 12:11
  Nicky: And this is an important conversation in and of itself.
• 12:13
  Nicky: And then B is actually the vibe?
• 12:16
  Nicky: Speaking to that, because it's like the old values conversation you can have the best bunch of values stuck up on the wall, but is that actually the behavior and actions that you're seeing in the business?
• 12:26
  Ness: Absolutely, and it's a really interesting example you throw out there about Trump, because there's definitely a vibe, and it depends on which camp you sit in as to what the vibe is.
• 12:36
  Ness: You'll see what you want to see, right, and that kind of leads me to think about well, what about as a consumer?
• 12:43
  Ness: So we talk about things like the best example I have is when a business recruits and they put out there that they're this magnificent place to come and work for and they want to get the best quality candidates and they bring those in.
• 13:00
  Ness: And then what I've heard from friends of mine who have gone into businesses and organizations that espouse to be one thing and then they get in there and within a couple of weeks or months they're realizing it is so different to what they thought the culture was going to be, what they thought they were going to walk into, and what happens then is there's either a high turnover of staff or it kind of just filters through into this toxicity that then plays out, I think, in the clients or the customers that you have, because there's more conscious awareness I believe in the consumerism nowadays about the kind of businesses we want to do business with, and I think about that, especially in relation to the environmental issues and all of that kind of thing.
• 13:47
  Ness: And it's really interesting because there are some businesses that have a vibe that people will be repulsed by or turned away from.
• 13:54
  Ness: And then there's other businesses that people will want to draw towards, and I think about the examples that came out probably a few years ago now.
• 14:02
  Ness: It's not so much out there in the media, but remember like Yahoo and places to go and work at where they had the beanbags and the PlayStations and all that kind of thing.
• 14:12
  Ness: And I do recall one of my previous clients as well.
• 14:16
  Ness: Their business had their values and one of the values was don't be a dickhead.
• 14:20
  Ness: And it was such a cool value because they talked about it in job interviews, they talk about it at meetings and people get it right.
• 14:27
  Ness: It's sort of like there might not be an absolute definition of what it is, but people know it's a vibe we get from others.
• 14:34
  Ness: So what you say about how you want to do business, what you say about the culture in your business, must be aligned, because that's a pretty cool thing to go.
• 14:43
  Ness: Oh, I'm going to go work for this business that has this as a value, because that would be great to be in there.
• 14:47
  Ness: And what happens if you're sitting in a meeting with a whole people who are acting like dickheads?
• 14:51
  Ness: It's like, well, I didn't sign up for this.
• 14:54
  Ness: Where's the congruency between what we say we're going to do and what we're not?
• 14:58
  Ness: And I think that's where the vibe bit comes in, because it's the living breathing, even when times are really tough, and that's when leadership is at its hardest right.
• 15:08
  Ness: When we're going through a challenging time personally, when we're going through a challenging time in business, when it's hard to continue to have open, honest conversations or courageous conversations or really live those values, that's where we get to stand up and say this is what I'm going to be held accountable for and people who work for us and our customers and clients get to see that.
• 15:35
  Ness: They get to see that this culture is actually real.
• 15:40
  Nicky: Do the Smart Growth Survey in under 60 seconds to get your hands on our Smart Growth Blueprint.
• 15:46
  Nicky: You'll get immediate access to our four favourite strategies for sales, profit planning and team, and you'll identify which phase of smart growth your business is currently in, whether it's crisis, build growth or momentum mode, so that you can move your way to the next phase with ease.
• 16:04
  Nicky: All you have to do is click the link in the show notes.
• 16:07
  Nicky: You know, as a sales rep in the time of the GFC, when everything was starting to crumble, it was, I mean, at the time.
• 16:22
  Nicky: I didn't think it was easy before GFC, but after GFC I was like, oh yeah, that was, take me back.
• 16:26
  Nicky: Take me back to those times.
• 16:28
  Nicky: And I remember my mentor saying it is so easy to be a great salesperson when times are good, but this is your chance to step up, this is your chance, and it's the same thing for leadership.
• 16:39
  Nicky: It's exactly the same thing that you are saying, and I think what happens is it's this whole piece around.
• 16:45
  Nicky: How do you act when nobody's watching?
• 16:46
  Nicky: And my mind goes to that's all great, the beanbags, that culture, that vibe, but what's the reason behind that?
• 16:54
  Nicky: Are you doing that to look good?
• 16:55
  Nicky: Are you doing that so that you attract really great people?
• 16:58
  Nicky: But to your point, ness, is that actually what's happening when no one's watching?
• 17:03
  Nicky: It's like when we take the dogs for a walk.
• 17:05
  Nicky: You know we're very particular on doing.
• 17:07
  Nicky: Oh, I feel like I'm taking it down a path here picking up the dog poo.
• 17:12
  Nicky: You know like come on people.
• 17:13
  Nicky: There's so many people around my neighborhood that are not doing that at the moment.
• 17:16
  Nicky: So that is also top of mind.
• 17:17
  Nicky: But when no one's watching, how are you behaving?
• 17:19
  Nicky: How are you acting?
• 17:20
  Nicky: Sorry, everyone to bring that example in and I wonder, ness, where that takes my mind to is.
• 17:27
  Nicky: There's also the scenario where the business owner has the best of intentions.
• 17:31
  Nicky: The intention actually isn't just to look good, it is actually to create that vibe, to create that culture so that people stick around.
• 17:39
  Nicky: So high quality people are engaged, they're autonomous, they're working at their best, they're feeling their best, they have the freedom and flexibility to bring their stroke of genius to their work, all of those cool things.
• 17:52
  Nicky: And I think sometimes I've seen that there's a gap between the intention is there from the business owner, but somehow it becomes a blind spot that it's not actually like that.
• 18:01
  Nicky: So, for example, it could be that that's the intention, but then the workload is so big for the people on the ground or maybe the onboarding process isn't what the business owner actually thought it would be after rolling it down and there can be an area of they're a bit removed, or what do you think causes that gap?
• 18:19
  Nicky: Why do you think it's like it becomes a blind spot.
• 18:21
  Nicky: I think what would be good to kind of finish out this conversation is to go well, what do we think?
• 18:26
  Nicky: Why does that happen, and what could a business owner do to maybe make sure that it's not a blind spot in business?
• 18:33
  Ness: Yeah, look, I think one of the driving forces behind that is we often as business and we work with a lot of businesses that perhaps have grown and now have staff on board but the culture was sort of in the head because it was just them to start with and then we look at ways to engage the team into bringing them on board to the culture, the vision and the values and it's about living that and I think sometimes it gets put on the shelf and we tend to forget about it because we get busy.
• 19:00
  Ness: Right, we get into just doing the work without lifting back up to go.
• 19:04
  Ness: How aligned are we to what we say we are?
• 19:07
  Ness: How are we demonstrating those values and how do we help our team understand what role they play in bringing that vision to life and what is it we really stand for.
• 19:18
  Ness: Those conversations are so important not to have once and it's a done and forget Because, remember, people will come and go.
• 19:24
  Ness: So how do you, like you just said, how do you onboard people where they actually get that part as a really important part of coming into the business and understanding that?
• 19:34
  Ness: And then I think what sometimes happens is we will have somebody along the way who works for the business who is not aligned, and that undermining behavior can happen and it becomes quite toxic to be around that person.
• 19:47
  Ness: But the business owner is so busy and distracted and perhaps doesn't feel comfortable having those conversations.
• 19:53
  Ness: And it's that whole thing like if I just sweep it under the carpet, no one will notice, but everybody notices.
• 20:00
  Ness: I think that this is where you know, as leaders in our own businesses, it's really vital that we are making sure that there is some sort of sense check out there around how a team are behaving in alignment to the culture we want, because you I've seen it over and over again you will lose really good people because they don't want to work in an environment or a culture where somebody who is demonstrating everything against that and is toxic is still able to be there, it's still able to get away with that.
• 20:34
  Ness: People see this and we can't just sweep it under the carpet.
• 20:38
  Nicky: And it breaks trust, doesn't it?
• 20:39
  Nicky: It breaks that trust of hang on.
• 20:41
  Nicky: You said that this was going to be the case and it's not.
• 20:44
  Nicky: So there's this underlying feeling of what else can I not trust you with?
• 20:48
  Nicky: And trust is the cornerstone of any foundational leadership.
• 20:53
  Nicky: You know relationship team.
• 20:54
  Nicky: So what I'm hearing in that Ness is set the scene from the very beginning as to what you want the culture, values, vision, et cetera, to be, and go back, find a process where you're actually going back to not just re-embed but check in with how are they feeling.
• 21:10
  Nicky: And what comes to mind as well is maybe a little survey, depending on how big your team is.
• 21:15
  Nicky: It could be an anonymous survey where you're actually going back and saying this is what I said, this is what we said it was going to be.
• 21:21
  Nicky: How would you rate it?
• 21:23
  Nicky: It could be as simple as that.
• 21:24
  Nicky: I mean a Google form, a job form, a type form.
• 21:27
  Nicky: There's so many tools out there.
• 21:28
  Ness: What I love about that is where the business owner has put a lot of effort and energy into it.
• 21:33
  Ness: It's so fabulous to see them get those results back.
• 21:36
  Ness: When we survey their teams and get that feedback from them, that reinforces all the work that I've been doing in this area.
• 21:43
  Ness: Like that makes me feel proud, because the team are on board and they do understand it.
• 21:47
  Ness: And then, of course, on the flip of that, when we work with businesses that perhaps haven't stepped back to refocus that they could have been going for ages but they still haven't.
• 21:56
  Ness: You know, like is that this old vision we had 10 years ago?
• 21:58
  Ness: Is that still relevant right now?
• 22:00
  Ness: That they see the gap and they can see the opportunity in that to be able to bring everybody on the same page.
• 22:06
  Ness: So it's such an important conversation to be having and it's really it's not easy, I've got to say, continually talking about culture and all the things that fall under that and picking people up in a positive way when they're aligning to the values, but also having difficult conversations on top of your own responsibilities.
• 22:25
  Ness: But isn't that what leadership is about Really, especially if you're the business owner?
• 22:32
  Ness: It's about maintaining what you want to stand for and making sure everybody's on board with that.
• 22:36
  Nicky: So I think it's time to bring it down to one simple action.
• 22:40
  Nicky: Ness, is there one action that you would love for our listeners today to take?
• 22:47
  Ness: is there one action that you would love for our listeners today to take?
• 22:49
  Ness: I would say probably a great first step would be just to have a conversation with your team like individually not together necessarily and ask them the question how would you describe the vibe around here, or the culture, whatever your language is?
• 23:01
  Ness: That would resonate with your team members and it's that whole.
• 23:05
  Ness: It's almost like the barbecue test, right, we often talk about.
• 23:08
  Ness: If you're at a barbecue and someone asks you what you're doing or what work you do or whatever.
• 23:13
  Ness: So if you're at a barbecue and someone said to you what's the vibe of the business you work for, what would you say?
• 23:19
  Ness: And I think that pulse check is such a great starting point because it could be either aligning with what you want or it could be very different to what you want, and it starts the conversation and it really then just sort of snowballs from there about taking action in order to create that change that's needed.
• 23:35
  Nicky: I love that, and that's such a simple and easy thing to do, and I'm going to close out with a quote that we absolutely love and talk about, share with a lot of our clients which is working hard for something we don't care about is called stress.
• 23:50
  Nicky: Working hard for something we love is called passion.
• 23:54
  Nicky: And so where would you even rate yourself as the business owner around that quote, gotta?
• 23:59
  Ness: love Simon.
• 23:59
  Nicky: Sinek.
• 24:00
  Nicky: Gotta love Simon Sinek and that's just such a cool quote question.
• 24:04
  Nicky: That is everything we talked about.
• 24:06
  Nicky: Does the vibe match what we think it is?
• 24:08
  Nicky: And yeah, hopefully you found this valuable.
• 24:11
  Nicky: I'm sure that you have.
• 24:12
  Nicky: Thank you for tuning in and, of course, if you loved what we talk about and what we bring to you, we would so appreciate a rating and a review and we can't wait to be in your listening ears again next week.
• 24:23
  Nicky: See you later.
• 24:24
  Nicky: Thanks for listening to today's ep.
• 24:26
  Nicky: If you loved what you heard, find us on LinkedIn and let us know what you enjoyed.
• 24:31
  Nicky: Also, don't forget to rate and review and, of course, share this episode with your biz besties.
• 24:38
  Nicky: Ness and I are obsessed with helping you break through your business and life barriers to get you to your next frontier of growth.
• 24:46
  Nicky: We bring two business minds and two perspectives into your business.
• 24:51
  Nicky: As the magician, I help connect the dots, see the possibilities and the hidden potential, and as the architect, ness turns those possibilities into practice, implementing plans and frameworks, because, let's face it, every vision needs a practical pathway to success.
• 25:08
  Nicky: We offer business health checks, taking you from chaos to clarity in just 30 days.
• 25:14
  Nicky: Are you curious to find out more?
• 25:16
  Nicky: Send us an email, or go old school and give us a call.
• 25:20
  Nicky: All our details are in the show notes and on our website.
• 25:23
  Nicky: Until Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and life.