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Leaning In with Chelsea Brown · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Thepist podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts, searching for the
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Trauma Theverist podcast and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma Neveris podcast.
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A show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those who experienced trauma. My
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name is got McPherson, and my mission is to raise awareness of trauma and
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to inspire each of us to help those around us. Ready, I am
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all right, so five four, three, two and one, our folks,
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welcome back to the Trauma Everist podcast. Got McPherson here, and I
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am very excited to have as Mica Siday. Chelsea Brown, Chelsea Welcome.
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I'm so excited to be here. Chelsea is an LPC supervisor in Oklahoma and
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owns Restoration Behavioral Health and Oklahoma. She's nationally certified trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapist,
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having trained at the University of Oklahoma's Center for Child Abuse and Neglect.
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She's also a provider of CPT cognitive processing therapy and evidence based treatment approach to
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pts and adults. Chelsea focuses on trauma work for her community and specializes in
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treating first responders, but she also serves the kids that come through her advocacy
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center Open Victims of abuse and neglect. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for
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having me. All right, you're welcome. So before we go in here,
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Chelsea, share with our listeners where you're from originally and where you are
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currently. So I am originally kind of from all over. We're right it
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snack dad in the middle of the Bible Belts in Oklahoma. My dad was
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actually a Southern Baptist pastor. So I was born in New Mexico, hopped
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around towns in New Mexico, Oklahoma, eventually settled here in Muscogi and have
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kind of been here ever since. So we're I'm for for better or worse,
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kind of an oak for miss Goge. Okay, all right, so
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let's let's jump in here. How did all this start for you? That's
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a great question. So originally I don't I don't know how familiar your listeners
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are with kind of like the enneagram, but I I'm I'm an eight uh
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and if if Most people who study like counselors will tell you that most of
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them are like two's and nines. Twos or nurturers, nines or peacemakers.
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But I was an eight and so originally I wanted to be an attorney.
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That's what I thought I would do. Is that like hard driving. Yeah,
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they're like the pit bull, Like healthy AID is a great leader and
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unhealthy AID is just kind of a pit bull. So whenever I want,
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I would like to say that now I'm leaning in a much healthier direction than
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I probably was when I went to college, so you know, we've come
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a long way. But it was really crazy. I I went into my
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undergrad and I took an abnormal syche class and was just mind blown, I
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mean just fascinated. I was hooked, you know, I just the idea
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of like curiosity with people, and so you know, I took another class
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and another class and another class, and I was I was all in.
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But what was really funny is the first class in my graduate program, you
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know, which for everybody is usually like your ethics course, because you know,
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want to make sure that you are a well meaning, decent human before
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they sing in everything else. The first class my my undergrad I'm sitting in
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ethics and they do the kind of perfunctory like tell us who you are and
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why you want to go in this field. And I was last. So
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twenty five other people are going around and they're all like, oh, I
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just want to help people, like we just love people and we want to
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help people. And I was like, oh, I'm in the wrong field,
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like I've messed up. And so they get to me and I'm like,
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I just find this whole thing fascinating, like just understanding like the nuts
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and bolts of people in general, Like I'm just curious. And I really
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thought it was a liability, Like all the way through grad school, I
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just felt like the odd duck the whole time. And then during my internship,
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I had my first trauma client and it was a sexual assault victim and
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I remember hearing just the desperation in her voice, like she just wanted help,
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she just needed relief. And I by the time I was done staffing
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the case with my supervisor in my in group supervision, everybody's crying. I
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mean they're just they've just they're just losing it the hearing the story, the
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whole thing, and I realized like I can hang Like I can do this,
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I can hang in there with these stories. I've got so much problem
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solving skill and so much natural like I just I want to get to the
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root of this. I want to understand and I want to try to help
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that. From there it was just a rocket ship. I read every TI
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a book I could get my hands on. The Body Keeps the Score,
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you know. As an undergrad, I was just like, oh, this
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makes so much sense. And then from there I just turned it up to
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eleven and just kept going with it. So what about it made sense to
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you? The neurobiology for starters, I was like, she couldn't stop shaking
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because of you know, vegas nerves exist, like and that's that's a whole
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thing, like her digestion was messed up. But also at the same time
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understanding the neurobiology in terms of like watching somebody who's actually going through it,
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you know, And so it's it's bringing to life all of these barriers to
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people's stories, like the things that are getting in the way, and it's
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like, no, we can fix this. And once I realized that all
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of these things that people are experiencing, both the neurobiology and then their perception
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of the neurobiology, it's like, I think one of the things that people
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feel, I know, I say, I think I know. One of
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the things that people feel when they come in to finally address and the trauma
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issues is like, I don't think that this can get better. I think
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this is just who I am as a person and to be able to,
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you know, put the car salesman hat on and be like, have I
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got a deal for you? Like we can fix this. This, This
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is a solvable problem. And there is no greater sense of accomplishment than being
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able to take a solvable problem and help people solve it in a way where
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they're turning the tide on their story. I don't I don't know who better
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high as a therapist than watching a PCO five score drop down to sub threshold
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for PTSD. So yeah, I mean I think that was the hook.
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I think that's what got me. So you went through school, went through
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graduate school. What position do you take right after studying community mental health?
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So in Oklahoma we have a two year candidacy. I know it's probably the
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same probably across across the nation. You just have a period of time where
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you are under a supervisor and trying to get as much experience under that supervisor
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as you can. And since I knew that was the direction that I probably
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wanted to go. I went into community mental health just to get as much
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exposure to different populations as possible, and there is no lacking for trauma experiences
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in community mental health, and so that's where I started. I don't know
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if anybody's ever seen the meme of the guy with like the strings behind him,
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you know where It's like he's got all the papers and the strings are
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everywhere. I felt like that person because I was like, oh, man,
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like trauma seems to be the string that is presenting all these issues with
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homelessness, you know, chronically mentally ill, all the problems that people are
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having, trying to find the right medications and you know, helping all these
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people try to navigate in the systems, how they were having all these trouble
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with the systems, And I was like, this is fight or flight,
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you know, almost all of these issues that were running into I just felt
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like I would say probably eighty to ninety percent of all of the clients that
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I encountered in community mental health, the common thread was just their share trauma
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history. And so that even drove me further like I should need to know
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everything I can know right right. So, I mean, obviously you have
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a passion for this, and it seems like it started quite early for you.
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Get but having that passion right and even having an inkline of knowledge in
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the beginning is one thing, and then working with clients is another thing.
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Weird was can you I'm wondering if you can talk about kind of an early
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challenge for you, early clinical error for you. Oh man, that's a
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phenomenal question, because I think that's the best way to learn, is trying
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as best as you can to lean from other people's stories, if you can
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relate to them and go I would follow that hole too. I think as
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an eight, which I know I'm kind of a rare breed in this work,
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but I think as an eight, I always struggle with moving too fast.
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I'm so eager for the solution for people. I really am where I'm
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like, we can, we can get there fast, and you want that
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for people so badly that I think there were a lot of times where I'm
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like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's let's start doing what we need
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to do. And especially with trauma, I feel like that safety net you
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need, those deposits in the account, you need a lot of deposits in
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the account to do that work, and I had to learn to be patient
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and build that account up and time it like, this is the time where
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it's where you can really push for we need to confront that belief system or
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we need to we need to unpack that. This is the time we need
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to do that, and you can't do that without money in the bank.
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So I would say at the beginning, it was the eagerness outweighed the nuance
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of of people. So if I'm talking to any fellow aids, I would
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say, you know, slow slow things down. You're not You're you're procrastinating
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on purpose. No, I think I know what you mean by when you
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send money in the bank, but for our listeners, be more specific about
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what you mean with that. Yeah, that's fair, you know. So
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in your your methods and Techniques class, they always tell you like, you're
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going to spend some time building rapport, Like that's our phrase, right,
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We're going to build rapport. And I don't think that lands really until you're
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you're working with a lot of clients. But essentially what you're doing is establishing
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safety via small what I would call deposits, just to use the metaphor over
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time becoming a more and more safe place to pick apart experiences, especially for
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somebody who's been through trauma, because a lot of times they're they're they are
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sizing you up every bit as much as as you are trying to understand them.
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They're they're they're keeping a really close tab on YouTube. So just proving
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over time with small deposits that you have safety, you have margin, You
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have a deep well of safety here, so that at a certain point when
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it's time to take a withdrawal, when it's time for me to kind of
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test the limits of that relationship, I've got margin. I've got room to
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work with here that I have enough evidence for my safety to discount the belief
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system that it's not safe to talk about these things or it's not safe to
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go to this place. And you just can't do that without time. You
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know, there's not a replacement for putting in the relational account balance, like
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you just kind of have to have it there. I don't know if that
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answers your question. It does no. I appreciate that, But what do
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you think within you allows you to do this work? Because it's again it
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sounds like you you were kind of the lack of a better word, kind
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of hooked right away. There was something that really intrigued you about this work?
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Well, what do you think it is about you and yourself? From
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being the two on the enneagram, it allows you to do this. So
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I feel like, for H and I work with such amazing people, so
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I kind of get to watch in my practice. We all we do is
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trauma work. That's that's what we do. So everybody that I work with,
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I think everybody that I work with is the two. So they're they're
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then naturally warm, fuzzy people, and they would tell you that they had
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to learn kind of sturdiness, like some rhythms that kind of helped them establish
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like the boundaries that they need to have. I would say that I kind
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of had to work in reverse. I really had to learn the pacing,
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you know, the the ability to be more present and not be two steps
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ahead, to be in the moment. But I really do think the thing
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that geared me towards it the most was just natural curiosity, really wanting to
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understand people. And then I think the thing that that couples up with is
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the problems ally piece and when you start to realize how much trauma really is
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sort of an underlying element just about everything that you're going to be treating.
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I think at that point you realize I'm going to solve a lot of these
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problems. I really need to understand how these early life experiences, these stories
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that people have been through are shaping the way they do life from this point
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forward. So I don't know of an area that's more foundational for good mental
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health practice than really knowing knowing your stuff when it comes to trauma. You
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know, having spent this little time talking to you, you know, thinking
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back to your bio and in the bio it said that you focus on treating
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first responders, and it feels like that population will be a good fit for
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you. Is that correct? Yes? Yes, I think it is a
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really tricky population to work with for a lot of counselors, because I think
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they can be really overwhelming. They are so solution focused that a lot of
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times they can be very disarming to therapists. And I think a lot of
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times they feel like almost like there's this aggression that's coming into this room.
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But I think it's almost like I know a fellow zebra, like I recognize
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my herd a little bit right, So yes, I mean it definitely plays
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in that, you know, it doesn't tend to intimidate a lot, and
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watching people be very desperate for solutions, I'm like, oh, we're going
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to We're going to move fast, and that's a beautiful thing. Is when
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you work with first responders, you usually do you move really quickly, so
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they're paced a little at my pace. So can you let me I wonder
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if we can kind of dial in and get more specific? Can you talk
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about a particular case, obviously without names or anything, but give us give
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us more specificity about what is like, what your experience is like. So
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I would say the difference between you know, the general population and working with
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first responders is a couple of things. One in particular, first responders usually
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don't come in until they are absolutely certain that they can't handle it on their
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own, whereas you you might start with what they would call it civilian population.
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If you're working with civilian population, it may be four or five weeks
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before we even address what you've been through. They you know, most people
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in those situations really do need those deposits. First responders are I don't I
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don't need a ton of deposits. I need a ton of solutions that I
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need them quickly. I've spent, however, many years trying to do this
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on my own, and I've kind of come to the end of me.
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So as soon as a first responder comes to your office, a lot of
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times they are very solution focused, almost to the point where you kind of
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have to go backwards. We're like, we actually do have to feel some
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things. You know, we're gonna you know, as much as I just
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want to say, here's the ABC's of how to do this, we are
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actually going to have to feel some stuff. And so I find myself having
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to pump the brakes with them a little bit. I've had a lot of
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officers who jumped to solutions faster than they can emotionally sort of appreciate how they
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got. So. I had an officer one time that worked a a sid's
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case, a sudden infant death, and when they came in, they were
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like, Okay, well, just you know, I know that you talked
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to so and so who was a friend of theirs, and he got to
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the point where he wasn't having nightmares anymore. So if you could just give
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me whatever the magic the fairy dust is for not having nightmares anymore. I
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really appreciate it. I really appreciate that. And I was like, man,
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I would really appreciate that too. If I could do that for you,
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that would be amazing. But we had to slow down and actually feel
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grief for that family. We had to slow down, and obviously every case
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is different, but how did you do that with this particular case? So
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I came at it. I mean, so I practiced cognitive processing therapy,
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and for any that's not familiar with that, it takes a lot of its
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leanings from CBT, which is, you know, the foundations most of us
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are trained in. So it was a comfortable slide over. I'm also certified
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in MEMBR but and I like that it's a little bit more artsy, a
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little less heady. But with cognitive processing therapy, we're really looking at belief
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systems and trying to shift what we call step points to more healthy and adaptive
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step points. And one of his belief systems was is if you feel it,
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then that makes you weak, And so we really had to do battle
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with that one a little bit, and we found out that most of the
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people that he respects and loves are people who feel really deeply and most of
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the things that made him a good parent to his children or when he feels
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very deeply and so you know, that's just a hop and a skip jump
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over to well, then grief is a healthy way that we attach to our
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community and to the people in our community, especially very small children. And
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so then that's when the light bulb comes on, like, oh, I
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have to feel this, and you're like, yeah, yeah, you do.
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You do have to feel this in the safety of an environment that appreciates
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how healthy and adaptive that is. And so then watching you know, the
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six foot three, two hundred pounds guy, So I really wanted that kid
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to live, and it's like, yeah, of course you did, because
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you're a good person. You know, you're a good dad, you you
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care deeply about your community. And then he gets to walk away from meaning
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instead of confusion. I mean, can you beat that? I don't know,
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there's something so tragic about I mean, that population obviously isn't unlike the
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military population, right where in order to do their job they need a certain
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emotional armor, and yet oftentimes they pay a deep price and then in order
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to heal, it's almost they need the antithesis of what takes your job takes
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to do. It's yeah, yeah, I actually really relate to them in
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that capacity because I think trauma therapists are kind of the same way. It's
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like, you have to you you need to be sturdy, because to take
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care of these people, you need to be present and have your own stuff
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kind of appropriately at least out of the way so that you can attend to
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these people. But at the same time, I have the privilege of having
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so many people in my community that teach me healthy practices on how to do
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that, how to prevent burnout, how to prevent vicarious trauma. You know,
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we have whole methodologies for that in our field, how to help us
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with that. You know, somebody gives me trauma stewardship, and I'm like,
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oh, thank thank goodness, thank you. They don't have that,
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And I think that's the piece that I really kind of empathize with. It's
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like, I'm so eager once we've dealt with the trauma that you've been exposed
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to, I am so eager to put tools on your tool belt that will
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make you resilient in helping other people who have been through trauma because most law
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enforcement officers that is what they're doing. They don't know they're doing that,
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but they're attending to the worst day in people's lives. So they are also
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having a front row seat to kind of broken and traumatized people, just with
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none of the tools. So you know, you kind of made reference to,
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you know, taking care of our stuff or your stuff, But what
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is your stuff? How do you take care of that? Have you taken
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care of that? Oh? Man, that's a long answer. I'll try
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to I'll try my best to do it short lots of things. Anybody who
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hasn't read it. Trauma Stewardship is an excellent book to help you look at
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both the pitfalls and things that are helpful. Another book that I would really
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recommend is a book called Emotionally Healthy Leadership, which is not a trauma it's
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not a therapist book at all. It's actually for pastors. But it talks
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about establishing internal rhythms, and I I really do think that you need those
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to do I really think you need them to do therapy well, but especially
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if you're gonna to do trauma work. So I take rhythms. It's a
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really good question. First of all, I take Sabbath, which is a
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religious concept, but I don't think it has to be a religious concept.
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I think you can apply it any way you want. But I pick a
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day out of my week that I do nothing but play and rest, because
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that what we you know, what we know about windows of tolerance is that
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whenever you do hefty living lifting, if you will take time to play and
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rest, that is how you kind of let those those muscles grow and then
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you can lift more on the back end. So I take a day to
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play and rest every single week. I don't I sign up to send down.
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I don't do laundry, I don't do notes, I don't do any
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documentation. I don't do obligations, I don't do meetings. Those are days
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that myself and my family, my husband are four kids, We play and
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we rest, and that is probably the biggest thing that I do. The
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other thing that I do internally in session is I do a lot of self
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mantra for the moment, so the feelings still happen even as an eight.
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I'm not a robot. I have feelings, and when I hear those stories
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and I experience them, I acknowledge them and I practice that mindfulness right in
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the middle of the session where I go, you are feeling what you're feeling
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because you are a competent therapist who cares deeply about your clients, and you
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have the competency to do the things that you need to do next. And
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so that sort of narrative in that dialogue pulls me through that session really well.
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There's not another person who's more equipped for this moment at this time than
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you. Still lean in and I do. I physically will lean in,
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and then at the end of that I have a sense of accomplishment of mastery
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more than like, oh gosh, that happened to me. And that's something
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that I think that a lot of new therapists can probably relate to, is
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like that session just happened to me. I've been hit by an emotional bus
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And so I feel like sort of really fine tuning that dialogue in a way
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that in that moment you can be present enough to go, oh, there,
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that is, I recognize that empathy, I recognize that feeling. That's
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a strength, not a liability. Lean in, do competent work, and
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physically push your body into this session in that moment, move yourself towards that
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other individual, view that as a strength, and then on the back end
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congratulate yourself for being present. It's the same thing we teach our first responders
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to do after they've kind of had that gut hit, you know, lean
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in and then congratulate yourselves in each other on the back end that you were
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present for somebody during such a difficult moment. So those are kind of the
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one is an external thing, the Sabbath is an external thing. And then
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just having that kind of working, concurrent narrative in therapy that helps you lean
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in. I love that. I mean that that seems like you developed that
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from hard one experience, you know. I mean it's such a I think,
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a beautiful articulation of mindfulness and uh being in the being able to do
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that in the moment. It's not easy, you know, having the wherewithal
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and the self awareness and the strength to say right, you know, yeah,
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yeah for sure. Awesome, all right, Chelsea, awesome. Love
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the work you're doing, super inspiring. What's the best way for people to
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get in contact with you? Oh, Man, probably email. I'm old
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school. As much as I would like to to give people like all these
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different immaculate ways, I'm pretty tied to my email, so it is Chelsea
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dot Brown at Restoration r E S T E O r A T I O
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N b H b S and boy Ages and Penry dot com. Okay,
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and I'll have that linked up here at the show notes page at the Trauma
25:08
Therapist podcast dot com. And your website is rest Restoration b H dot com
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health dot com. Awesome, we'll have that linked up as well. Chelsea,
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thank you so much for being here. Hey, thanks so much for
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having me. All right, take care, yeah,