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Back To Basics: Creating and Using Sigils Part 1 · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
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  Speaker 2: What? What's going to happen?
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  Speaker 3: Something wonderful.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What? I understand how you feel.
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  Speaker 4: You see, it's all.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Very clear to me now. Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
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  Speaker 2: Sigils have been used in one form or another for
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  Speaker 2: a very long time. Although the word sigil was not
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  Speaker 2: always used for every type of magical symbol we would
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  Speaker 2: put into that category today. In the ancient Mediterranean world,
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  Speaker 2: especially in material preserves from Greco-Roman Egypt, magical texts and
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  Speaker 2: amulets contain unusual symbols known as caricatures, along with divine
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  Speaker 2: names of magical words, drawings, and other signs. These could
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  Speaker 2: be used in operations involving protection, healing, attraction, divination, cursing,
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  Speaker 2: and communication with gods or spirits. Jewish magical traditions also
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  Speaker 2: developed extensive use of written amulets containing divine names, angelic names,
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  Speaker 2: biblical passages, magical formulas, and symbols. Similar talismanic traditions developed
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  Speaker 2: throughout the Islamic world, where sacred writing, letters, numbers, astrological symbols,
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  Speaker 2: geometric designs, and magical squares were used for protection, healing, success,
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  Speaker 2: and other purposes. Magical squares became especially important to the
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  Speaker 2: later Western sigil tradition. These are grids of numbers arranged
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  Speaker 2: so that rows, columns, and often diagonals produce the same total.
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  Speaker 2: During the medieval and Renaissance periods, particular squares became associated
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  Speaker 2: with classical planets. Names of angels, spirits, planetary intelligences, and
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  Speaker 2: other beings could be converted into numbers and traced across
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  Speaker 2: these squares, creating many of the planetary and spirit sigils
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  Speaker 2: that later ceremonial magicians would recognize. Other cultures developed their
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  Speaker 2: own systems of sacred or magical diagrams. Taoist traditions used
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  Speaker 2: Fu talismans, if I'm saying that correct. Hindu and Buddhist
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  Speaker 2: traditions developed yantras and other sacred geometric designs. And Haitian
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  Speaker 2: voodoo uses vevi, connected with particular iwa, if I'm saying
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  Speaker 2: those again correctly. These are not all historically the same
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  Speaker 2: thing as Western sigils. but they show how widespread the
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  Speaker 2: use of specialized ritual symbols became. During the Middle Ages,
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  Speaker 2: we also find the Ars Notoria, or notary art, a
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  Speaker 2: Solomonic magic system concerned largely with gaining knowledge, memory, eloquence,
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  Speaker 2: and understanding. Its manuscripts contain elaborate figures called notae that
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  Speaker 2: were used alongside prayers and ritual procedures. These are not
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  Speaker 2: the same thing as modern sigils, but they belong to
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  Speaker 2: the history of magical diagrams and are especially interesting because
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  Speaker 2: these figures were used as a part of practice meant
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  Speaker 2: to affect the abilities of the practitioner. By the Renaissance,
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  Speaker 2: magical seals, planetary symbols, magical squares, astrological images, and spirit
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  Speaker 2: sigils had become a major part of Western ceremonial magic.
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  Speaker 2: Cornelius Agrippa's Three Book of Occult Philosophy helped collect and
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  Speaker 2: organize much of this material. including planetary squares, numbers, spirits, intelligences,
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  Speaker 2: and their associated seals. Giordano Bruno also deserves a place
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  Speaker 2: in this history. Bruno developed elaborate systems of memory involving
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  Speaker 2: symbolic images, geometric arrangements, rotating wheels, and what he called seals.
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  Speaker 2: Works including On the Shadows of Ideas, The Explanation of
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  Speaker 2: the Thirty Seals, and The Seal of Seals use complex
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  Speaker 2: visual systems as part of his methods for memory, imagination,
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  Speaker 2: and learning. The Grimoire tradition continued developing seals connected with angels, demons,
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  Speaker 2: planetary spirits, and other intelligences. Texts associated with Solomonic magic,
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  Speaker 2: including traditions surrounding the Key of Solomon and later the
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  Speaker 2: Lesser Key of Solomon, helped popularize the image most people
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  Speaker 2: now recognize as a traditional spirit sigil, a distinctive symbol
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  Speaker 2: associated with a specific entity and used during ritual work.
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  Speaker 2: That remains one of the dominant ideas behind sigils and
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  Speaker 2: Western ceremonial magic for centuries. A sigil was usually connected
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  Speaker 2: to a particular spirit, planet, angel, demon, or magical force
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  Speaker 2: rather than something the magician simply invented for themselves. That
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  Speaker 2: changed dramatically when Austin Osmond Spare in the early 20th century.
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  Speaker 2: Spare developed the method that most modern practitioners now associate
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  Speaker 2: with personal sigil magic. Instead of using a traditional seal
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  Speaker 2: belonging to a spirit or planet, the magician could begin
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  Speaker 2: with a written statement of desire, remove or combine letters,
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  Speaker 2: and transform the statement into a unique symbol. The sigil
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  Speaker 2: could then be charged through concentrated or altered states of consciousness.
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  Speaker 2: Spare's ideas became especially influential during the development of chaos
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  Speaker 2: magic in the 1970s in 1980s through practitioners and writers
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  Speaker 2: such as Peter J. Carroll and Ray Sherwin. Chaos magicians
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  Speaker 2: simplified sigilization even further, experimenting with different ways of creating, charging, destroying, forgetting,
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  Speaker 2: and using sigils without necessarily requiring the larger ceremonial systems
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  Speaker 2: found in older grimoires. From there, sigil magic spread heavily
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  Speaker 2: into the modern witchcraft, occultism, ceremonial magic, chaos magic, and
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  Speaker 2: contemporary magical practices. Today, somebody might use an ancient planetary seal,
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  Speaker 2: a spirit sigil taken from a grimoire, a sigil constructed
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  Speaker 2: from a magical square or a completely personal symbol created
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  Speaker 2: from their own intention. People charge them through meditation, visualization, prayer, breathwork, trance,
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  Speaker 2: sexual energy, intense emotion, dancing, exhaustion, candle work, or countless
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  Speaker 2: other methods. Some burn them after using them, some carry them,
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  Speaker 2: some place them on altars, some repeatedly redraw them, and
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  Speaker 2: some even tattoo them onto their bodies. So when we
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  Speaker 2: say sigil magic, we are really talking about a practice
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  Speaker 2: that has gone through a long development. We have ancient
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  Speaker 2: magical characters in amulets, divine names in talismanic writing, magical
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  Speaker 2: squares and planetary seals, medieval magic diagrams like the Ars Notoria,
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  Speaker 2: renaissance systems like Agrippa and Bruno, spirit seals in the
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  Speaker 2: Grimoire tradition, Austin Osmond Spare turning personal desire into a symbol, Chaos, magic,
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  Speaker 2: simplifying and expanding the technique. And then everything people are
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  Speaker 2: doing with sigils today. And that is where I want
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  Speaker 2: to start today with myself, Sanre, Eric and Magus in
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  Speaker 2: the media. Because all of us have actually worked with
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  Speaker 2: these things in all different ways. So rather than just
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  Speaker 2: talking about what books say sigils are supposed to do.
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  Speaker 2: I want to talk about what we have actually done
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  Speaker 2: with them. How we learned to use them. What methods
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  Speaker 2: we have tried. What worked. Maybe what did not. and
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  Speaker 2: whether our ideas about sigils changed after actually putting them
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  Speaker 2: into practice. Now, after six minutes, I will shut up
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  Speaker 2: and I will introduce the other people from the show. Finally, Brandon,
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  Speaker 2: if you haven't fallen asleep, what is going on, my man?
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  Speaker 2: How are you?
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  Speaker 3: What's up, brother?
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  Speaker 2: No, definitely.
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  Speaker 3: I'm a wide awake and aware and living my best
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  Speaker 3: life here with these fine gentlemen. Thank you for having
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  Speaker 3: me come on this beautiful show. Always love being a reject,
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  Speaker 3: especially the occult variety. As you all know, my name
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  Speaker 3: is Brandon Lee. I am Magus in the media where
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  Speaker 3: we do all things, myth, magic, and meaning philosophy and
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  Speaker 3: the like in the things, in the stories that we love.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that's something that's really important in this conversation.
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  Speaker 3: is how stories are encoded, not only about our understanding
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  Speaker 3: in the world, but it also integrates into our own
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  Speaker 3: nervous system and helps us truly become exactly what we
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  Speaker 3: want to be in and of the world itself. So, uh, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: this is going to be an exciting conversation. So let's, uh,
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  Speaker 3: let's fucking get into it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, thank you, man. I really appreciate you getting here,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: you know, coming on and doing this with us and, uh, yeah,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: definitely go check out all his stuff, please. For people listening.
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  Speaker 5: And we'll start with Sanre. What is going on, my man?
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  Speaker 2: How are you?
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  Speaker 4: This is cool, man. Thanks for doing this. This is
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  Speaker 4: an exciting topic. Sigil magic. So in my opinion, the
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  Speaker 4: two most potent forms of magic that I've ever encountered
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  Speaker 4: are spirit magic and sigil magic. And to me, they're
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  Speaker 4: not as closely linked as they probably are for you
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  Speaker 4: or for Brandon because I come from the chaos magic current, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: But oh my God, there's so much to this. There's
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  Speaker 4: so much to sigils and how effective they are and
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  Speaker 4: why they're effective and all the different ways that they've
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  Speaker 4: been used since the beginning of recorded history. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: like look at like runes are, are a sigil system, right?
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  Speaker 4: And that's, I believe the oldest form of writing we're
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  Speaker 4: aware of. So it's, this is not like a lot
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  Speaker 4: of people have this weird idea that, that sigils come
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  Speaker 4: from chaos magic and that they're new.
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  Speaker 2: And that is totally wrong.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, I could even say for myself, when I first
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  Speaker 2: got into this stuff, I thought the same thing until
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  Speaker 2: I started coming across these magic squares. And I was like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: what is this?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Got me, too.
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  Speaker 3: Well, then it's like, what is language itself? You know,
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  Speaker 3: it's like when we, you know, what is language itself?
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  Speaker 3: And how do we understand exactly it is that we
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  Speaker 3: get from the world what we want by using language?
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  Speaker 3: the language, like the alphabet, like why, why, why when
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  Speaker 3: you see my logo, do you see an M, but also,
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  Speaker 3: you know, it's like, well, it's because somehow these mountainous
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  Speaker 3: fucking peaks in my mind, in my consciousness, in my,
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  Speaker 3: nervous system denote that that means M for some reason.
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  Speaker 3: And then you've got to, like, what does M mean?
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  Speaker 3: And now when I put together these string of things,
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  Speaker 3: and now I can give a loaded context to then
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  Speaker 3: what mountain means or magus means or any of these things.
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  Speaker 3: And now, you know, over there, what I'm trying to
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  Speaker 3: talk about and we can point to it in the world.
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  Speaker 3: And so it's like, what is a sigil? You know,
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  Speaker 3: a sigil is then how can I get my desire
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  Speaker 3: across in the world? So somebody else understands it. And
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  Speaker 3: now add the magic part into it is how can
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  Speaker 3: I get my desire across to the underlying hardware of
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  Speaker 3: the universe to try to get my desire enacted in
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  Speaker 3: the world? Something like that.
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  Speaker 2: I guess if you really think about it, I guess
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  Speaker 2: numbers and letters are really sigils that.
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  Speaker 5: Have been accepted so much that it's actually used.
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  Speaker 6: Well, have you guys ever noticed that the gods or
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  Speaker 6: deities who are typically associated with magic itself, Also associated
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  Speaker 6: with wisdom and also associated with writing, right? So, like,
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  Speaker 6: people group these things together, writing, wisdom, and magic, because
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  Speaker 6: they're all kind of synonymous.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, Hermes himself, right? Mercury, the thrice great Thoth, they
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  Speaker 3: all sit within, again, in the framework that I like
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  Speaker 3: to run off of. You know, the magic squares, as
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  Speaker 3: you were talking about in Hode, in the Kabbalistic tree
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  Speaker 3: of life, as you're walking up the tree and you
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  Speaker 3: enter into the mercurial sphere and Sephira of Hode, you
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  Speaker 3: will be confronted by Mercury, by Hermes and by Thoth
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  Speaker 3: and his great ape. And they will play the magic,
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  Speaker 3: like why you bring up the magic squares is so
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  Speaker 3: important because it's like this idea of language and magic
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  Speaker 3: are so inherent in how we, like, that's why magic
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  Speaker 3: isn't just succumbed to these little spheres of the occult
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  Speaker 3: and the esoteric. Like, it's so fascinating how, again, a
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  Speaker 3: great way to bring that up, like you did, Sanre,
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  Speaker 3: is that Sigils, or Nick too, Sigils just didn't start
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  Speaker 3: with chaos magic and Austin Osmond Spare. Like we just figured,
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  Speaker 3: like we just brought up right away in the beginning, sigils,
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  Speaker 3: our language itself is the glyph of the alphabet. And
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  Speaker 3: it goes all the way back to the very makeup
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  Speaker 3: of civilization in the caves as we were trying to
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  Speaker 3: go out in the world and destroy a tiger so
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  Speaker 3: we can bring it back to our people so we
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  Speaker 3: could feed ourselves. And so, and so it's like, as
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  Speaker 3: Grant Morrison talks about in his disinfo con conversation, which
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: I think everybody should go and watch because it's a
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  Speaker 3: brilliant conversation. he, Grant Morrison being the comic book artist
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  Speaker 3: of a bunch of amazing things, he was a chaos
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  Speaker 3: magician himself, still is to this day, talks about how
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  Speaker 3: when they're in the caves, what are they doing? They're
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  Speaker 3: making an image, a glyph, of them piercing with spears
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  Speaker 3: a tiger or a lion or an antelope or whatever,
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  Speaker 3: and then they're like, That thing, let's go. Now we do.
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  Speaker 3: And then they go out and they do it. And
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  Speaker 3: they're coordinating a pattern with their own nervous system mind,
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  Speaker 3: which they don't have these words for. But now we
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  Speaker 3: can say like, oh, there's pattern here.
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  Speaker 2: I see it.
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  Speaker 3: And now I'm going to enact my will and desire
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  Speaker 3: in the world. And then that comes along and then
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  Speaker 3: you do it. And then all of a sudden you
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  Speaker 3: get this coordinated pattern. And now you can continue to
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  Speaker 3: do this. Back and forth. And as we then evolve
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  Speaker 3: through time and whatnot. So this is a fascinating thing.
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  Speaker 3: It's like, where did the sigil come from? It's like, well,
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  Speaker 3: where did language come from itself? And so it's, you know, yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, languages is itself deeply mysterious. It's the thing
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  Speaker 4: that makes us human, right? Writing a language is what
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  Speaker 4: makes us wildly different from all other creatures. And it's
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: still fascinating. a bunch of i'm just making mouth noises
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  Speaker 4: right now and y'all understand them but if you didn't
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  Speaker 4: speak english you wouldn't i'm just making sounds yeah we
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  Speaker 4: made it all up yeah but it but it's connects
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  Speaker 4: the entire species it's incredible also eric you forgot we
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  Speaker 4: didn't get eric's introduction yeah eric give.
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  Speaker 2: Us oh yeah yeah yeah i started going into the
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  Speaker 2: show already shit It's okay. Yeah, we're all really excited
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  Speaker 2: to get started on this topic.
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  Speaker 3: I'm Eric Arcadian.
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: As soon as we finish this show, hop on over
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: to my YouTube channel, like and subscribe over there, watch
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: a video or something. If you're going to be in
• 14:26
  Speaker 6: the Tallahassee, Florida area this weekend for any reason, guys,
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: you can come by Swamp Mystics. I'll be doing a
• 14:32
  Speaker 6: presentation on my book, Fluid Condensers, and conveniently topical.
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  Speaker 3: There's some sigils in here that I talk about. So
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  Speaker 3: that's fun.
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  Speaker 2: That's awesome. Nice. Thank you, Eric, very much for making
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: it to my man. I appreciate having you all here
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: today doing this topic. Not to not to get back
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: to like kind of what you were saying before, but
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  Speaker 2: I started thinking about I even think when you go
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  Speaker 2: to like to Hebrew. especially with that language, because like,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: you know, you're talking about like DM and like what
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  Speaker 2: it means in your mind. And I'm like, well, you know,
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  Speaker 2: that's going to, in Hebrew, that's going to have a
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  Speaker 2: numerical value attached to it. And possibly, you know, like
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  Speaker 2: the back of your head, your ox or, you know,
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  Speaker 2: a certain thing attached to it. So like even that
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  Speaker 2: one letter already has like loaded value of like all
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: the things attached to it. And I'm like, that's, you know,
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  Speaker 2: like even when you start getting into like, you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I would even say like, you know, Chinese and Japanese,
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, that shit's like art at one point.
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  Speaker 3: It is, it is. You know what I'm saying?
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  Speaker 5: I'm like, that's a sigil. That one letter's a sigil,
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  Speaker 5: for fuck's sakes.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, Tangi and the different Chinese letters. It's why I
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  Speaker 3: love that you brought that in is because in our
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: Eastern brothers and sisters, what they use with their language,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: it's not subject predicate Aristotelian logic and syllogisms like how
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: we speak with our language structure. Each symbol... They are,
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: they like our letters hold one static meaning, right? M
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  Speaker 3: is M and you put them together and now you
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  Speaker 3: have M-A-G-U-S, which means magus, which now we can take
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  Speaker 3: that back to, you know, priest, magician. It has this
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  Speaker 3: loaded connotation and syntax to it, but it's different in our,
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  Speaker 3: with our Chinese and Japanese, um, in our Eastern, um, alphabet,
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  Speaker 3: they are using symbols as that are loaded with meaning.
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  Speaker 3: And now when you read them, it's more like a hieroglyph.
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  Speaker 3: It's more like Hebrew. It's more like this other way
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  Speaker 3: of seeing the world that then that symbol grows, it's planted,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: and each symbol has a different way of going about
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: it when you're reading it, that then when you say it,
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  Speaker 3: it has different connotations. So the same symbol can have
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: many different ways of going about how then you structure
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  Speaker 3: it in a sense when you're reading. So it's a
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  Speaker 3: fascinating way of how then the very makeup of our
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: nervous system and how we see the world is based
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: on the linguistic and language structures of our conscious mind
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  Speaker 3: interpreting the world itself. And so then we wonder, how
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  Speaker 3: do we change paradigms and worldviews in this day and age?
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  Speaker 3: That's something that Kaiva and I and Nick, when you
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: come on and everything, that's what we're continually talking about
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  Speaker 3: is like when we're seeing the world, how can we
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  Speaker 3: take it from a magical perspective? How can we interpret
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: the world from the ideal into the material instead of
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: how the techno-feudalist oligarchs continually want us to see the
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  Speaker 3: world in this some material mechanistic worldview, Cartesian enlightenment thing.
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  Speaker 3: It's like, well, we have to re-associate how we use
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  Speaker 3: our language systems so that then we can interpret the
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  Speaker 3: world through these new structures and be able to see
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: the world differently. And I think that's the important, one
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: of the very important aspects of this is when I
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: start actually practicing the embodied experience of being a magician
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  Speaker 3: in the world, right? I'm just branded and a magician
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  Speaker 3: is a hat I wear, right? Just like the warrior,
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  Speaker 3: just like the lover, right? I'm not any of those things.
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  Speaker 3: I am all of those things and none of them
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  Speaker 3: at the same time, because I'm just a schmuck who's
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: just trying to figure the shit out. But then as
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: I lay the hat on of the priest, warrior, magician, lover,
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  Speaker 3: Now I'm using different words to signify certain things, and
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  Speaker 3: those things are sigils, magical implements, and ways to then
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: view my reality through these different reality tunnels. And I
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: think that this topic is very important because we can
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: go from exactly what we thought. Austin Osmond Spare created
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Chaos Magic, and he is the first person who ever
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: talked about sigils. And we're like, no, wait. Nick just
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: told us that actually Agrippa was using magical squares and
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: these different lines to associate these things to these ideal forms.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: And they're like, wait, Agrippa got this from... And then
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: we continue to go back and now we just realize
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: that cavemen were actually using these things to go out
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: to be able to hunt in the world. And it
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: allowed them to see things in a different way so
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: that I can actually bring back food for my people
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: and then we can create a civilization. So it's fucking awesome,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: Brandon, are you familiar with the, uh, the Wharf hypothesis?
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: I am, but can you help me? Can you define that?
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: Well, you, you just defined it, but I was wondering
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: if you were aware that it's, it's, it was in
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: your thesis there, which is brilliant because it's the Wharf
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: hypothesis simply states that you, the language you speak determines
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: your perception of reality.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: So true narrative also.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Which you mentioned, those things are incredibly tied together into
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: how we perceive our everyday reality. And then, you know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: it's these layers get get weird because we get to
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: a point where, OK, is our entire perception of reality
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: built on language? I would say like a tremendous amount.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: of it is. And then sigils are a way of
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: condensing that. So you can make this incredibly simple. We
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: can make this super simple for everybody and say sigils
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: are a way of talking to the universe. OK, that works.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: That works. That can be that can be done.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: Or we could talk about to the point where it's
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: so meta that we're like, what the fuck is reality?
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: You know what's going on here? And all of that fits.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: And it's that's what's wild about it.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's beautiful. And so if we're going to
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: talk about it, I'd like to start off with my
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: experiences and how I first heard about sigils, if that's okay. Oh, nice.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually going to ask, how did everybody
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: even come across sigils before we got into what we
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: even do?
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I'm going to give my then how
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: I did it, right? And so in my early years... Um,
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: in my early twenties, when I was getting into these
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: things and the beginning of the internet and whatnot, um,
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I stumbled upon, I was reading, I'm a, um, I
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: was reading comic books. And so in Grant Morrison's, the invisibles,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: which was a comic book, as I was tumbling down
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: the rabbit hole on my own journey. Um, the Grant
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Morrison and all his work started coming to me because
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: this man, you're like, oh, he's a magician. What does
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: that mean? As I'm trying to understand my own experiences
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: that I've had and I'm all like, okay. And so
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: I read the invisibles, um, and in the invisibles, um,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: I came across then his, uh, his talk in the
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: disinfo con and he basically comes up there and he
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: like right away, the thing, he screams into the mic.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: He's like, Whoa.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: And he's all like, I'm coming up on something right now.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: And so just be here with me as I come
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: up on this, it's going to get crazy. And then
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: he defines this thing. He's all like, right now we
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: all need to understand that you can do the magic.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: He goes, we all have heard it. If you're listening
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: to us, even right now, you've heard of Alistair Crowley,
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Robert Anton Wilson, uh, You've heard of Timothy Leary. You've
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: heard of Agrippa. You've heard of all these names. He's
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: all like, how come they were able to have certain
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: effects and techniques that they went upon these things? It's
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: because they actually did it. If you read Robert Anton
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Wilson's work, Prometheus Rising, Luminosity Trilogy, he goes and lays
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: it out there. Pick up Alistair Crowley's books. Do these things.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: The easiest magical technique to do is the sigil. And
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, this is interesting. He's like, this is
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: how you do it. You take... A string of letters
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: and you say, it is my will and desire to
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: get something, right? To win the lottery, right? You got
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: to make sure you buy the lottery ticket to win
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: the lottery. If you're doing something that is your will
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: and you're putting it into the sigil, but you're not
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: setting yourself up in the world to get it, like
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: for instance, like win the lottery. If you're not buying
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: the ticket, it's never going to work. So this is
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: just an example. He says, so first what I want
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: you to do, it is my will and desire to
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: win the lottery. And now he says, now what I
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: want you to do is I want you to take
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: out all of the vowels. Mark all the similar vowels.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Every one that's got an I, if you've got two I's,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: take them out. If it's just one I, leave it.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Now he's like, take out all the consonants that are repeating, boom, boom, boom.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: And now you have a string of letters. Take these
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: string of letters. Now I want you to do is
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I want you to make a magical sigil. I want
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: you to make a glyph, an image, make art now
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: with these string of six letters that are not repeating.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: And I want you to just change them around. The
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: D goes here, the P goes there, it does whatever.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: And so now you have this magical glyph. We're going
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: to call that a sigil, he says. So now what
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I want you to do is I want you to
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: do some form of ecstatic enthusiasm, as Aleister Crowley calls it.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I want you to... burn this piece of paper i
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: want you to orgasm on top of it as in
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: busting all over that said that thing i want you
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: to reach i want you to go into a sexual
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: state with your partner and imagine it and the state
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: of climax or as you get it you're kind of
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: getting what i'm getting at here i want some kind
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: of burned aesthetic enthusiasm so it gets integrated into your
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: unconscious mind into your subconscious mind and then i need
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: you to forget it and that's the most important aspect
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: You need to forget it. Because if you're remembering it,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: it's still in the conscious mind. And then it might
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: not be able to work and have it happen. And
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: he says, don't just listen to me. Go and do it.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: And the more you do it, the more what we're
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: doing is there's a way to tap into the back
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: end of our universe. And when you tap into the
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: back end of the universe using this one aspect of magic,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: this sigil, you will then have the ability to see
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: your will enacted in the world, and you can be
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: able to get this thing you want. And so this
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: is a small aspect, and I'm going to continue, and
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: this is going to be a little long-winded, but I
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: think it's really important because this moves into how Grant Morrison...
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: was able to, A, continue his comic book, right? So
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: as he's writing this comic book, The Invisibles, which is
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: about the light versus the dark, it's a group of rebels,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: the Invisibles, who are going up against the Archons and the... um,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: the tyrannical establishment. Um, and as he wrote this, he
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: actually ended up figuring out that the Manichaean dark versus
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: light was all a sham. And so this great spiritual
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: war that we're going upon that we see ourselves as,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: as there's like, we got the light side, we got
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: the dark side. He's like, well, do you know the
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: term Manichaeanism? They're all like, uh, you know, like, oh yeah, well,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: that's what this is. We are playing a game. And
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: the more we get into it, the more there's these
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: nuances and you start realizing that there are these double,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: triple agents going on. But he's writing this in a
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: comic book, The Invisibles. Magus and the media is going
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: to be breaking down the Invisibles soon. I have this
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: whole thing worked out for it. But why this is important?
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Because the Invisibles itself became a hyper sigil. So you
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: take yourself down to the smallest aspect of just your
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: trying to find your want and will and desire in
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: the world and how you can gain something from that.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I would consider that to be low magic.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: I don't really care for low magic myself, each to
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: his own out there in the world. I like the
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: more higher levels of mysticism and magic, but, you know, whatever.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: The idea is then that what he did. So at
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: this InfoCon, Grant Morrison is bald with his fucking leather
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: jacket on, looking like James Bond in a Scottish accent.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: And so what he ends up saying is that, so
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: what did I do with my characters in this? I
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: ended up putting myself into the comic book. So there's
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: a character that looks exactly like Grant Morrison in the
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: comic book. He's the main character and his name is
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: King Mob. And so you get to see himself in
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: the comic book and he's all like, well, this is interesting. What,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: you know, he just got out of a relationship, he says,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: and he's like, how about, what if I actually do,
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: what happens to my character? What happens to me in
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: real life? So he's all like, how about, you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: as he's, this character is doing these things, crazy enough, um,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: he put his character through trials and tribulations, just like
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: we do in our own initiatic pathway where his lungs, he's,
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: he's being interrogated and, and basically, um, he's being like, uh,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: interrogated by a person and they pierce his lungs and he, they,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: he's beat to a bloody pulp. He's on the brink
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: of death. And in his actual world, Grant Morrison in
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: that same timeframe gets brought to the hospital with a
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: pierced lung on the brink of death. he started seeing
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: what his character was going through. He started going through
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: in real life. And so he's all like, fuck, I
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: need to start making my main character, me and my,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: this thing, having a good time, right? Because what I'm
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: seeing happen to my character, because I'm sorcerer's apprenticing these things,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: there's a little bit of danger when we start realizing
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: that our stories mimic reality or reality starts to mimic
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: these stories is what he ends up doing to make
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: a long story short. is that he starts being like,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: I need to make this character have a good time.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: This character needs a girlfriend. And so that character starts
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: dating and getting with this redhead in the Ragged Robin
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: in his comic book. And what did he start seeing?
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: The first girl he meets, a redhead, looks exactly like
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: the girl in the comic book. And they're seeing each
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: other and hanging out. But they just don't match. It
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: doesn't work. And so that woman goes away. Another redhead
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: looks exactly like the character in the comic book. And
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: it's like, it's okay. She's beautiful. But it's like, something's wrong.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: It goes away. Girl after girl after girl. until he
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: realizes something. He's starting to realize that there's a disconnect
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: between his hyper sigil and his actual reality. Because there's
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: some kind of thing that's not matching up with his
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: own magic magician and what's going on in the comic book.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: So what is a hyper sigil? If a sigil is
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: a condensed glyph of desire and will manifest using that
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: energy in the world, then a hyper sigil is art.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: you're actually, you're building a massive art, you know, magic
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: and will in action, right? The signs of art in
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: conformity with the will, you know? And so there's this
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: thing that's beautiful here. So when we are enacting our
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: will in this bigger way, we can actually do bigger
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: sets of magic. And I think there's, again, there's something
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: to that. We're seeing that in her every day. So
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: that's my long-winded. I started doing sigil work in the
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: beginning when I realized that was going on. And I
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: actually had that conversation with Kaiva when I was listening
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: to Disinfocon with her on our way back from Deadwood,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: from our trip where we were on. And she looks
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: at me and she's like, so did you do sigils?
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: And I was all like, well I did she goes
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: interesting she goes did they work and I go well
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: you're here right now aren't you and she's all like
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: really and I was all like I actually remember doing
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: one that I don't remember what it looks like but
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: I have you know we're all in our younger 20s
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: we're like I want to find my perfect mate I've
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: gone through a lot of mates that weren't perfect. And
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: as you all see me and Kaiva, as we interact,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: she's as fucking gorgeous and beautiful and genius as they come.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: And so something happened where then I finally, well, I
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: went through my own ragged Robin, Grant Morrison, not working.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: And finally I've vibrated as Lon Milo Duquette talks about,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: like I've been able to build my magician in a
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: way that finally vibrated enough so I could bring in
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: my mate so that's my story about sigils and enacting
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: them in the world right so be careful that's what
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: that's my biggest thing about low magic is so i
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: would consider you know and son ray and eric and
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: nick may have a different idea of what low magic
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: and sigils are but for me it's like if you're
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: enacting things in the world, right? That's more low magic,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: high magic being the divine theurgical slash catabasis, anabasis things.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: And again, I know I saw the, I saw the
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: thing with the, you know, I know you're a follower
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: of Peter Carroll and stuff like that. And so I
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: have my own mishaps on that kind of thing, but
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: it's beautiful nonetheless.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's my, yeah, I don't, I don't love
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: the distinction between like low magic and high magic. I
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: think it sounds, weird, but I mean, that's fine. Um,
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: so to me, I think, so before we get, I
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: have a lot to say about hyper sigils, but before
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: we get into that, I just want to make the distinction.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: I think that to me, I think that what distinguishes
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: a hyper sigil from a sigil is narrative, right? So
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: because the invisibles is a long narrative, whereas the sigil
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: is an individualized desire, right? I want this. Whereas a
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: hyper sigil is an ongoing narrative procedure, right? And you
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: made me realize when you were talking about this that
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: what Grant did is something that– and by the way,
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: I know this because I have an ex-partner who was
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: deeply invested in fan fictions at one point. But something
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: you're never supposed to do as an author or as
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: a fan, especially in the realm of fan fiction, is
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: insert yourself in the story and call it a Mary Sue.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: Hyper sigils are like the– this incredible thing that came
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: out of this thing you're not supposed to do is
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: put yourself in the story.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: And I wonder if, if, if there's any, if there
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: was any, like, why shouldn't you put yourself in the story? Right.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: I wonder if, if anyone kind of figured out earlier
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: than grant that if you do this weird things happen.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Well, there's that malleability of reality. And I
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: think this is my larger conspiracy narrative is that I
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: think we're all in a hyper sigil. I think that
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: the powers, the bloodline families, I think that they have
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: created a narrative and a reality that.
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: We're all in.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: And I know, again, that itself is a narrative in
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: and of itself. And I think that the idea of
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: the magician, the sovereign magician, is to tap into that
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: and take back. And again, this is just a, it's
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: an allegory, right? Or it's a symbol of what larger
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: story is. But I think we live within a story.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: I think you live, so like as Donald Hoffman puts it,
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: you live inside the story that your brain tells itself.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: I don't think we all live in one shared collective story.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Well, personally, I don't like that. I love Donald Hoffman
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: and I disagree with the subjectivity of that matter, but
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: that's fine. I think you and I, you and I
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: have a further conversation to have in the future when,
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: when we go back and forth between those things, just
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: because I think it's a nuanced story of the myth
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: we live and sigils tap into those, those stories and
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: allow us just like, like astrology, right? The astrological understanding of,
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: If I can, if I can understand my own astrology,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: my onto theological astral, like whatever, then I can tap
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: into the story and take my mind back because the
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: NPCs that are living in our world, the, um, the uninitiated,
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: the plebes, right, the muggles, they are just, I think
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: that's the whole idea of the dark sorcerers in the
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: inverted republic is that they don't know the stories that
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: they're living out because they don't understand them as narratives.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: And so they're enacting a narrative and they are just,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: what's the movie? Fuck, there's a movie that's not The
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Matrix that came out at the same time as The Matrix.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, it was like Dark Something.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: No, no, no. No, it's another one where they tap
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: into themselves into a virtual reality video game.
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: It was like The Matrix before The Matrix, right? I
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: know what you're talking about.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: Wow. Anyway, that's the thing where it's like you walk
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: into a place and the NPCs are just NPCing. A
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: coffee shop girl says the words she's supposed to say
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: because of the ideology she's living out. Now it's all like,
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: how do you tap into the reality of the story
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: that's going on to bring a little bit of chaos
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: to it? But it's not chaos. It's an ordered reality. um,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: a glitch in the narrative of the world, which I
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: think we're falling into right now, as in, um, I
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: think that the curtain is kind of down and it's
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: all hell is broken loose in a way that Terrence
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: McKenna talks about with his time wave 2012, right? This
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: as novelty increases, we are speeding up this thing as
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: we're trying to figure out what the fuck is going on,
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: but that's a whole other topic. Sorry, I get off topic.
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: Um, Yeah, that's all his shit, man. This is going
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: to be a nine-hour-long podcast.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: I'm just going to zip it for now. I'm tempted
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: to go off-topic, and I don't want.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: To do that. Eric, actually, how did you come across
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: the idea of sigils and stuff before we even get
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: into how you use them and this and that?
• 35:49
  Speaker 6: I think Because I've come across them, like, many times,
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: you know, like, different ways through my life. But I
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: think the first time I came across sigil making was
• 35:59
  Speaker 6: reading Lieber, Null, and Psychonaut. And I think I was
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: trying to look up how to make a servitor or thought.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: Form, like, many, many, many years ago.
• 36:12
  Speaker 6: And that process just really fascinated me.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Fascinated me.
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: To me, the idea of sigil making is encoding an
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: idea and the power behind it comes from not like,
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: I have mixed feelings about it, okay? Because I employ
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: a variety of techniques magically and some sigils I'll make
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: and I put up as like a conscious reminder. They're
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: things that I see, but I think the things that have,
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: had the most success for me are ideas that are
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: encoded into the form of a sigil deposited into the
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: subconscious mind and then you destroy the sigil like you
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: never look at the sigil again and i have a
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: actually i have a notebook of sigils that i have
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: made and the process of making them But I never
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: look at that.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: That's just for like records.
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: If something goes wrong and I need to go back
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: and look at what I did, maybe I can reverse
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: engineer something. But the idea is you make the symbol
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: and then you do something to get it into your
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: brain and then you don't bring it back into the
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: conscious mind anymore. And since you've encoded that idea and
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: the subconscious mind works on symbols... then you have this
• 37:41
  Speaker 6: feedback loop that is going back and forth between your
• 37:44
  Speaker 6: conscious mind and your subconscious mind and the reality that's
• 37:47
  Speaker 6: manifesting around you, and it's kind of like doing the
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: work for you.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: Totally.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard that process before, too, very much like that.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Pretty same thing Brandon was saying before, too.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that... So I've got a chapter in
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: my book called Making Better Sigils, and I kind of
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: walk through this process. Also, I wanted to say this.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: It's a really cool thing. I think the reason people
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: love Sigil Magic so much is that the first time
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: any of us ever encountered it was when we were
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: kids watching cartoons. Because if you want to make something
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: look magic, make weird little scribbly lines on it. It
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: looks fucking magic as fuck, right? Think about the show
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: Full Battle Alchemist. It's an amazing anime entirely about Sigil Magic.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: I watched it before I knew what Sigil Magic was.
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: It was a real thing. You know what I mean?
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: So having weird arcane symbols, it looks magic. It just does, right?
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: So when you see these things and encounter them in
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: real life, you're like, oh, I can actually do this?
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: Of course I'm going to do this. This is so cool.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: You know, because it's already in there. But, you know,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: if I were going to describe how sigil magic works
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: in the most pragmatic, practical way possible, your left brain,
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: left brain hemisphere is where your speech center is. It's
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: the side that understands language. And this is a massive oversimplification,
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: by the way. So if you're going to make a
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: comment about that, I already know. right massive oversimplification but
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: your right brain in a you know a very oversimplified
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: way is the subconscious left brain is the conscious mind
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: so you're taking the conscious mind and you're writing out
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: a set of instructions and then you're turning them into
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: a symbol right brain speaks in symbols as eric just
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: pointed out but not language so you're taking language turning
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: it into symbol so you go from left brain insert
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: it into the right brain left brain writes the program
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: or left yeah, left brain writes the program, right brain
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: executes the program. That's it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: That's great.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: That is interesting. You think it even has a, it's
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: part of the working, is the communicating between both?
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: I think that the synchronization between brain hemispheres is at
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: the center of all magic.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even the gateway process talks about that.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: There's something incredible that happens when you get your entire
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: brain aligned and working together. Because if you do anything.
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: If you don't do that part of the process, then
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: essentially what you have just done is make a cool
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: piece of art that has no magical function.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Aleister Crowley comes into this, and this
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: is how I'm going to bring him in. I'm going
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: to bring him in by his eight limbs of yoga
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: or the Raja yoga. And I think that's really important is, um,
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: how to make your magic work is by training the will,
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: training the will, calming the body. So the, when the
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: body ticks, you're not just like, Oh God, I need
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: to get up.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: All of a sudden now it's like, like, no, I
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: can sit within this, this body tick, right? This Hatha yoga.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: I'm going to make, make sure that no matter what
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: I can, not allow the body to stir the mind, right?
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Because that's the monkey mind, and that's why Kung Fu works,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: that's why yoga works, these things, is that I'm going
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: to train the body, which then doesn't stir the mind.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: Now when the mind does its thing, I can tap
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: into the intentionality towards something, which is why I like
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: phenomenology so much, because Husserl talks about how consciousness is
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: always consciousness of something. So now if I'm trying to
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: enact my will by concentrating on a God name, a
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: God form on this, my own sigil, which I've created now,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: cause I want to find my keys, right? It's like,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: I need to find my keys. It is my will
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: and desire to find my keys. I've created a sigil
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: for it. And now I'm going to sit and stare
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: into the flame. I'm going to hone my, my conscious intentionality,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: my will and my concentration by again doing some kind
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: of embodied practice that's why i think it's so important
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: to have that because i think a lot of people
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: try a lot of things and it doesn't work and
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: then they throw it away and i'm thinking like well
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: i think why that aspect of what crowley brought in
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: his mat in his um in his magic book four,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: and when he was writing about yoga for yahuuligans, is
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: that he was talking about like Panchali system of the
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: eight limbs of yoga, which is really good. And I mean,
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: the East just started coming over here with the Blavatsky
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: and Crowley and all these characters. And he was learning
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: from Alan Bennett at that time. And he was going
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: through all of the asanas. And it's like, go through
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: these things, put your body in a way that is uncomfortable.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Because the world is uncomfortable. And if you want to
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: be a magician in the world, you have to understand
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: how to do your will, which is different than your want.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Do your will in a way that means that I'm
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: going to be uncomfortable and I'm going to allow the
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: chaos of the world to move around me as I
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: am as still as that flame. And nobody can move
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: me from my center. And what that means is now
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: I can enact my will through my magical process of
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: that science and art of causing change to conformity of
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: my own will or whatever to be able to move
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: these things. And so I think there's, and again, that's
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: my thing that I continually want to impart upon the
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: world is right now I think the magician warrior philosopher
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: needs to be integrated. Because I think a lot of
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: times people are like, magic doesn't work. And I'm all like, no,
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: your body is not, your mind is not, and you
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: need to get your shit in order. And especially in
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: this day and age where we all have cell phones
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: connected to our bodies, which are aggravating our nervous system,
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: how can we tap into our nervous system to do
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: exactly what Sanre was talking about, is to allow the brain, body, vision,
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: nervous system connection to amalgamate so we can be, as
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Manly P. Hall says in his book, The Lost Keys
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: of Freemasonry. He talks about it in the lungs though,
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: but I completely agree about the brain. He says, how
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: can you truly be, how can you have apotheosis? How
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: can you truly be human if you don't even have
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: your full lung capacity? If you're only breathing right here
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: and not allowing the fullness of the breath to come
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: up and out. And at any moment, somebody comes up
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: and says some kind of word that it annoys you,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: and all of a sudden your breath is all out
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: of whack. How can you be a magician and allow
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: that to happen? That's my, yeah, anyway.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: I get that for sure. Sanre, I was wondering with you,
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: you know, I've always just assumed that, like, I guess
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: you just opened up, like, you know, a chaos magic book,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: and that's what you started off with.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: No, I started with atheistic levain and Satanism.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I know, yeah, yeah. And I do forget about that.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: You did even say that on the show when you
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: first came on, which was totally a surprise for me.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was great to add to the topic.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: What's a practice like that look like to start with?
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: It's incredibly simple. So there's a lot of stuff in
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: the Satanic Bible that I disagree with. To start off,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: I think that LaVey himself was deeply misogynistic. And that's like,
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: it just is what it is. You know, it sucks.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: But that being said.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: So that story has everything to do with, with me
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: losing my dad and getting pissed off at what the
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: church had to say about it. But that stuff aside,
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: there's only three spells in the satanic Bible. And he says,
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: and basically what they says, there's three kinds of magic,
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: you know, he keeps it very, very simple. And it's
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: in the, in the, that atheistic system is entirely about
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: the power of the mind, right? It's about the will essentially. Um, there's,
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: he's got, you know, a ritual for destruction, a ritual
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: for lust and a ritual for, uh, third thing. I
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: forget what it is, but you know, it's, it's incredibly
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: simple and it gives a very, very simple ritual for
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: each of these. And there are things you can apply to, uh,
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: just about any situation. And I think that it's a,
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: it's a very, very powerful kind of magic. It worked
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: really well for me for 15 years before I branched
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: off into other stuff. Um, I think that it's probably,
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: in my opinion, the best introduction to magic for beginners.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, your mic just went out there somewhere. I don't know,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: maybe it's switched over to like... There we go. There
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: we are. That's way better.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: That sexy, sultry voice of yours, Andre.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you.
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: I was assuming probably StreamYard.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: I just got new shit and I haven't figured it
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: all out yet.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: No, yo, sometimes StreamYard will automatically switch things.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: I'm in a closet. Like I said, I could open
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: this door, right? And then I get a lot of
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: cool air, but it ruins the way my set looks.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: No, I hear you.
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: I'm going to take the door off because this is
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: a closet with no windows.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: Trapped in a closet.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: It's hot as fuck in here, even though it's cold
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: outside right now. Nice.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't even know.
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: It's going to fry my computer, I'm sure.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: We would have never known you're in a closet here.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: No, I had no idea.
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: No, right? I like this set that I have because it's,
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: you guys, my audience doesn't know, but I've moved like
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: three times. And the set stays the same because I
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: can just slap this stuff on the wall and put
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: the shelf there and boom, there we go, right?
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: That is a, yeah, I've thought about doing that with
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: the place here because the closet is ridiculous. Like this,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: like what the fuck? Somebody can live in there. Um, yeah. Oh,
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: this place.
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: That I moved into is like this closet doesn't make any.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: So this is one of the great things about magic,
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: by the way.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: Because we need, because I use magic for absolutely everything
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: I do. My daily to do list has magic involved
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: in it. So when we were looking for a new place,
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: What are the things I need in a new place?
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: I need a weirdly positioned big closet to do my
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: podcast in. Then we found a house with a weirdly
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: positioned big closet that's upstairs. It's like this is a
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: weird storage room that's here for no apparent reason. It
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: totally should be a bathroom, but it's not. It's perfect
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: for me.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: Magic can do anything.
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: Anything you need, if you have the right mindset about it,
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: magic can create absolutely anything you need in your life.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: It doesn't do things that are... There's some limitations to magic,
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: but they're those limitations are more about your own mindset.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: So for example, speaking of sigil magic, this is one
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: of my favorite things of all time. I used to
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: tell everybody, you know, it was kind of adamant, like
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: I don't gamble and I would never advocate for gambling.
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: So I would always say like, don't, don't try to
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: use magic to win the lottery because the odds are
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: still wildly stacked against you. But then one of my
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: students won the lottery using magic that I gave him.
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: So I can't say that anymore.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: It worked.
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: It worked for him because this particular student has, Number one,
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: he's my most advanced student by far, but also he
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: has this ability to not place limitations on himself. It
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: exceeds my own ability to not do that. Right. And
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: so I created this thing and it's an audio ritual.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: I call it the dark matter sigil ritual. It's just
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: a guided meditation that leads you through the burning of
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: the sigil in a ritualistic manner using theta binaural beats,
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: theta waves. So it gets deeper into your subconscious mind.
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: And I created that and I gave it to him first.
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: And he used it, messaged me the next day and said,
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: I won $ 10, 000 in the lottery. Oh. Fucking wild, right?
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: That's nice. That was an investment for him to join
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: your thing.
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: And pay it out.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: You know, I've had other students manifest thousands and thousands
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: of dollars, but never in a lottery before. Like the
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: fact that it was the lottery was wild. Because I'm
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: the one who's saying, don't do this. It's a waste
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: of time.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: Well, I think there's something that I was just thinking
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: of that I maybe haven't connected before and if I
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: have I haven't been able to say it all out
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: to people and this is what is what are what
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: is prompting and I think that we can see a
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: direct reflection of what happens and how an example of
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: sigil work can be if you are if we don't
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: have a good enough idea of And if we don't
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: have the exact details, like the genie, if we tell
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: the genie our wish and we're not very detailed, we're
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: going to get something. The universe will have that loop
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: system and we'll get it. And that goes back to
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: the girlfriend example with Grant Morrison. It was a dysfunctional
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: relationship in the comic book. So he continued to get
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: dysfunctional relationships in his world. So let's go to the prompt.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: When I give Chachapiti or Claude a prompt and it's
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: one sentence that is a very disjointed idea, I'm going
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: to get an answer that's very disjointed and an answer
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: that I like, that's bullshit, right? The best example is
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: the images and you see them all over the place online.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: Trash images because people don't know how to prompt. Prompting
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: is magic. And so if you understand how to prompt,
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: you can A, fucking make tons of money because that's
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: like prompt engineering is going to become a huge career
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: over the next five to 10 years, sooner probably, but
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: you are going to see a direct reflection of a
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: better image that's clearer from ChatGPT or Clot or any
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: of these things. And so I think that's a really
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: good example of sigil magic is that if you, and
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: you can see it through prompting, is that, you know,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: and that's, that's a.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: I totally, I don't know.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I've had that experience.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: The statement of intent that, which we could call it, I,
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: i despise by the way using the word prompt for
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: this because like i don't like a i use it
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: every day but it frustrates the fuck out of.
• 51:18
  Speaker 7: Me oh yeah me and you were talking about that
• 51:20
  Speaker 7: a couple days ago yeah yeah so i agree sometimes
• 51:23
  Speaker 7: that's another reason why just just real quick sorry that's
• 51:26
  Speaker 7: a lot of times why i'm even like how intelligent
• 51:28
  Speaker 7: could this be because it really aggravates the fuck out
• 51:30
  Speaker 7: of me by doing the dumbest shit.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Like it does the dumbest shit sometimes and you're like
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: but But you're intelligent.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Brandon is right.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: And the prompt that you give, that you create for
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: your sigil, or the statement of intent, like we used
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: to call it, whatever, is so incredibly important. Because the
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: most powerful spell that I've ever done, and I wrote
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: about this both in that one back there, This is Chaos,
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: and also in my new book, is that the spell
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: that I did that's the reason I'm sitting here right
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: now as a published author is a spell from the
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: following statement. I am always in the right place at
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: the right time. That is a much more powerful statement
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: than I want this thing or make this happen, right?
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I completely agree. Yeah, that's one of my
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: issues with NLP, to be honest, is that it's short-sighted
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: and we don't understand the rebound effect.
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: I've never looked into NLP.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: Neuro-linguistic programming. And so it's basically my greatest example is
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: The Secret.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: And the reason I say that is because... Is because
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: a lot of people did get things and then it
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: ruined their life. It goes back to the genie idea.
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: The secret gives you half of the hermetic philosophy and
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: not the rest of it.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: That's exactly it.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: That's a really good way to say that.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: And it's similar to what you were talking about with
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: Full Metal Alchemist, actually, is again, the goat of animes.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood, if you want to see a
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: great hero's journey with actual magic and actually seeing how
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: a being can take, it's a homunculus can try to
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: take over and try to become God. Like it is
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: fucking beautiful. But the idea is that we don't understand
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: the rebound effect. And so the rebound effect on the
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: boys when they were trying to do the law, like
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: the greatest taboo in all of alchemy, which is trying
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: to bring back somebody who has died, is that it
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: rebounded on them and the law of equivalent exchange took effect.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: And so no matter what we're doing, there's always cause
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: and effect. There's always the law of equivalent exchange. And
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: so the boys as, as, as pure as their hearts were,
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: they lost one, lost their body, the complete body and
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: the other lost his arm. And so it's this interesting
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: thing is that we don't understand magic sometimes when we're
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: sorcerer's apprentices and, these types of ideals of like, we're playing,
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: we're dabbling. And so NLP is taking parts of the
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: whole history of magic. And now it's used in trying
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: to hack and manipulate the nervous system, not only of yourself,
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: but others. And that's where it gets really dangerous, is
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: that people are using NLP techniques to manipulate humans' nervous
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: systems and not understanding that these rebound effects could take
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: place instantly or 20 years down the line.
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's nothing new, though. That's what car salesmen do.
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: Snake oil salesmen since the beginning of time, right?
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: Charming people. They're always have been, always will be. And,
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: you know, the.
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: But now you can take a course on it over
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: the last like 50 years.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: And the sad thing about it is that that ability
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: stems directly from a lack of empathy.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: And my, my big thing, and the thing that like
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: is most important part of the order of chaos philosophy
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: is that if you want to save the world, it's
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: through the proliferation of empathy.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: Compassion and empathy.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I agree with that.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: And you got to save yourself.
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: You have to cultivate it. Like we have to, we
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: have to encourage and cultivate it and develop it within
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: ourselves and others. That's the only way we're going to
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: get through this. We're all going to be fucked. We're
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: all going to die with a bomb or something. We're
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: going to kill each other unless we can really, truly
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: develop empathy. And also, sorry to go off on a
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: tangent here, but if there really are, let's say, two ways, essentially,
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: to simplify things down, so you can go up or
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: down in consciousness, what is enlightenment? Enlightenment is just a
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: better word for maximum empathy. And what is the Antichrist?
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: Total lack of empathy.
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: Interesting.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: I could see that being... Um, we're all right. I
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: get back to sigils. Um, sorry.
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying, man. Because these, these topics, like
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: you were talking about sigils, you're talking about.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're going to so much shit. Yeah, of course.
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: Literally we could do a nine hour podcast.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: No, you're right.
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: No problem.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: For sure. Um, no, because it really did like, like
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: you even started off before, even which is language and letters.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just the whole thing. It just, and
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: even like the way, you know, I even eventually started
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: incorporating it was, uh, into ceremonial magic. A lot of
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: it was adding it to a talisman, like adding a
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: sigil on the talisman that was already... I mean, all
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: that other stuff is pretty much just sigils upon sigils.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: But I did come across it. The first time I
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: started across the ideas of sigils was very much like Eric,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: like you had mentioned earlier, and like Brandon had gone on.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Kind of like the chaos, I guess, magic way, where
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: you would meditate, bust a nut, Or I think, like,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: there was even, you know, the one where I think, like,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: technically you kind of, like, choke yourself to an extent
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: or whatever or whatever. There was whatever.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: Asphyxiation?
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That one. It's supposed
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: to bring you to, like, the brink of almost passing out.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, you stop. You don't look at
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: the image anymore, and you throw it out. You know,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: you get rid of it. You forget about it.
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I went the meditative route, you know, where I
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: would do.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Mantras.
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: Sure you did. No, I was big with mantra work,
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: believe it or not.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: But when I came across those, I never actually used
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: it or implemented it. It wasn't until because then, which
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: I eventually found a way to, but at that point,
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: I was just like, I don't know how to fit
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: this into, I was very regimented and very ritualistic, you know,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: into my stuff. And I don't think I had done
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: talismans yet. I think I was just like kind of
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: just messing around, just, you know, learning the LBRP, you know,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: and meditating. Once I started getting into planetary magic and
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: more into the Kabbalah, that's when I started with the talismans.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: And then because of the magic squares being associated with planets,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: and then you can attribute those then to, you know,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: the Hermetic Kabbalah, I was like, all right, now there's
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: like a system that works in with the, you know,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: rituals that I'm using that I can utilize this. So
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: I got into the magic squares really at first to use.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, again, I did know of the other one,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: read books on that, but never really got into it.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: So when I would make talismans, you know, I would
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: use all these like suggested maybe things. Like if I'm
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: working with Mars, I might put certain symbols on there
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: that would go with Mars. I'll use certain colors because
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: of the sphere. It would be like the main color
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I would use would be green, no red. And then
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: the pop, the flashing color would be green. if I'm
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: doing it Kabbalistically and like the way the Golden Dawn
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: or Crowley associates doing it with the coloring and then
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: eventually like sometimes maybe I would kind of put my
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: intention in there and that could get a little tricky
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: or sometimes I would draw a sigil for like kind
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: of like maybe if I was like you know Horace
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: maybe I would pick a form of his name you
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: know because I'm sticking with I think Mars I could
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: put him there And, you know, neither I would do
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: his name with inside the magic square for Mars. Or
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: if it was like my intention, I would probably, the
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: way I've done that was a little bit of kind
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: of mixing chaos where I would kind of have my intention.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: I would knock out whatever letters I'm deciding to take
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: out that day. because there's, I've seen people differences with
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: leaving the vowels. Don't take out the vowels, take out
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: the doubles. Don't, you know, so many arguments. I'll just
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: be like, I'll roll the dice, whatever I feel like
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: fucking doing today. I guess I'll do that version. And, uh,
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: I would do that kind of to try to get
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: like my own sigil. Um, sometimes if I wanted to
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: get maybe a little bit more, Specific like I mentioned
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: a servitor before.
• 59:33
  Speaker 5: I used a servitor and I created a sigil for that.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: I think I did it somehow to where it was
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: equating like whatever square I did I think might have
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: matched Mercury because I was more focused on air. I
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: wanted this servitor to be more of like somebody real
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: good with the mouth so they can manipulate motherfuckers. I'll
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: just be completely honest with you. You got to be
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: swift with your words if you really want to get
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: people to do what you want to do. So I
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: figured some air would help. So I made my servitor
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: more of an air elemental. And so I had things
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: like that I've done. But I basically got it from
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: the Magic Squares where at first, where I first came
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: across that was Agrippa.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: It does go back early. It can go back to.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into it too much because
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: we're a little bit farther into the show than I thought.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: But that does go back to.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Ancient China, where they did find, there is a three
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: by three Lu Shu magic square. You have it in
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: ancient China, then it starts showing up in medieval Islamic
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: world under the word WAFQ or AWAFQ. I'm not even
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: trying to pronounce that. And at that time, they started
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: kind of attaching astrology. You'd see it used for like talismans, letters,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: divine names, spiritual beings. Then Jabir, somebody I've covered on
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: the show before, Jabir Ibn Hayyan. He includes the three
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: by three square in his talismanic stuff. And then around
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: the 11th century is where it kind of really starts
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: getting planetary attributes attached to it by Al-Zarkali or Azraqel.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: I'm probably saying it wrong. And that's around 1029 to 1087.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: And then you get Al-Buni in the 12th and 13th century.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: He starts adding numbers and letters and sacred names like
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: around them. kind of almost putting them into the ceremonial
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: sigils you start seeing. And then after that, the Renaissance
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: and the gripper kind of go off with it, but
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: just to give a basic rundown of the past. Yeah,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: I would use those. And then when I did use them,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: just to go on a little bit more, get a
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: little bit more detailed, again, if I'm probably using them, well,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: if I am using the magical square, I'm attaching that
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: to a planet. So now before I even do that,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to go into what I do before
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: I even do my ritual, but I would have done
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: the LBRP. I would have banished all elemental influences around me.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Then I would have followed that up with the planet. Well,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: I might have done a meditation. I might have done
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: a middle pillar. Or I might do that after the fact.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: But then eventually I will do the banishing hexagram so
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: that I can remove all planetary influences around me. And
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: then I guess I'll go with Mars. Then I would
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: either choose to invoke Gabor or Mars and then I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: would do the invoking pentagram ritual and do the pentagram
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: that's associated with Mars and the zodiac sign I would
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: do all that and then I would do some sort
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: of like probably like a meditation on like what I'm
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: trying to achieve I will look at the image I
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: might even do a mantra I had mantra beads so
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: I can even like kind of count to make sure
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: like whatever if I'm whatever I would have those to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: kind of keep even a repetition or, you know, meditations
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: and stuff, you know. And then eventually, you know, I
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: would try to focus on it. I would try to
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: keep my intent and I would just try to keep
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: focused on the image. And then eventually I would probably
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: maybe thank whatever energy I might have been working with
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: or deity, kind of close the whole thing out. Maybe
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: if I, you know, if I was working with something
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: that I think needed it, whatever offerings I have left stuff.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: if need be, maybe left a candle burning. Maybe that's
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: to still charge the sigil while it's on my altar.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: You know, whatever. But eventually, you know, I'd close it
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: down and then end it. And there was times that
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: I would do both where I would get rid of
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: the thing and never look at it again. Or certain ones,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: I would actually go out, I would take this motherfucker
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: down to Staples and have him laminate it. And I'd
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: put that thing in my pocket and I'd take it
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: around with me. They're probably like, what the fuck did
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: this dude just bring in?
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: Just open up your phone case. slap it in there
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: and close your pockets back up.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: Oh, I've seen people do that. I was like, it's
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: fucking genius.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: Like this dude probably thinks like, Oh, his little kid
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: drew that.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: How cute.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: I really like what you were as you went through
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: your processes. The thing that I really appreciate about ceremonial magic,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: even though I don't do it, um, I incorporate little
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: bits of it, but like every layer you add to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: that ritual structure, it's, embeds it further.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah that's what I've gotten out of all that
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: stuff is all those that layer cake you go through
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: to do something that's all just more embedded into your
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: conscious to probably mean something yeah and it makes that
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: whole situation this must be special and it means it's
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: different than ordinary life and ordinary time I'm stepping out
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: of something to try to do something else so that's.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: Something to kind of reiterate why I think LeVay was
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: brilliant in the way he wrote about magic because he
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: simplified all that down to just saying it's psychodrama Your
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: magic needs psychodrama, right? It needs, it needs that element of,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: of like fantasy and wow. And, and like to separate
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: it from ordinary reality.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I definitely think that's a key, a key
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: point of ritualistic stuff, especially all that ceremonial shit for me.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: For me it was, but yeah, that's my, so.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 6: Nick, you just detailed like a really, a really complicated,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 6: an elaborate way of making a sigil. I've gone through
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 6: very similar processes using the planetary squares, using the Kabbalistic
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 6: colors all to encode this one idea, right? Let's say
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 6: you do that and you give me that symbol. You
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 6: give me the end result and you say, this is
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 6: a sigil for whatever you were talking about, like something Mercurian, right? Like,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 6: like this is to, uh, achieve the ability to influence
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 6: people by speaking. And I take that symbol and I
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 6: start working with it. First of all, does it have
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 6: any magical value to me or to anyone else? And
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 6: if it does have magical value, is it going to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 6: be benefiting me or by working with it? Am I
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 6: actually benefiting you?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: You know, that's a really good question, man. And I
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: can even kind of use like one time I made
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: a mercurial talisman for work. This was even kind of
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: part of it. The servitor was a completely different thing,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: but very much close to the same thing. And there
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: was a contest going on at my job. I worked
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: for a company. I did deliveries. I'm not going to
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: really get too much into the company itself because I
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: don't want to shit on it too much and then
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: have to worry about stuff. But they would run sometimes
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: like they would give you bonuses.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: They kind of do like a contest.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: Incentive pay.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, incentives to where if you happen to maybe build
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: because you could offer. I never did unless they got
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: on your case about it. Try to sell your customers
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: more shit on your fucking route. You know what I'm saying?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: And it's like half the time I'm like, I'm lucky
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: they're even paying the bill. You want me to try
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: to sell them a rug or some shit this week?
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 5: Like, come on.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: So but they would do these contests and I just
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: assumed like I'm really going to have to be fucking
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: slick and I'm probably going to have to understand the
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: thing that I'm trying to sell or just really get
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: an idea of like, how am I going to convince
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: these motherfuckers to really take this shit? Because in my opinion,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: I think most of the stuff I'm going to keep
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: it real is pointless and overpriced. So I actually just
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: didn't see any value in half this company shit to
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: begin with. And now I got to fucking tell somebody.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: you know, to buy something else. It's like, I don't know.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: I even think for myself, I better talk slick so
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: I can even convince myself it's worth fucking selling.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: You know, I better be mind fucking myself as I'm
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 5: saying this shit.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: So I did get, yeah, I got a Mercurial thing
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: and I made it. And I remember my supervisor, we
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: were actually really close, really cool. He was younger than me.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: He somehow realized, I think that he knew I was
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: in the OTO. Eventually I figured out that I was in,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: this is why I was in the OTO. that I
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: was into ceremonial magic and I ended up winning that contest.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: So he had asked me, he's like, you know, did
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: that anything, you know, did you do anything for it?
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: I said, I made a talisman for it, you know,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: a mercurial talisman, this, you know, X, Y, and Z.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: And he's like, yo, do you think you can make
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: me something to like help me deal with the customers better?
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: Cause he was a supervisor. He dealt like, you know,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: shit rolls downhill. He got like the worst fucking, he
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: had to deal with the worst shit. So, uh, I
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I probably could. But I made him
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: kind of like a, it wasn't a talisman. It was
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: more of like a bag with a bunch of different
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: herbs and things in there and stuff. I forgot there's
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: a name for that. It went a little bit more
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Wicca or kind of like witchcraft route than actual talisman
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: for him. And I had often wondered, my opinion, because
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: just for me, it's like, yo, after what I went
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: through and then me telling you that if you just
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: hold this thing in your pocket, this shit's going to
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: work for you.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: It's going to work.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: At that point, I had to have actually put some
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: sort of energy that got stuck in that thing that
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: somehow is going to rub off onto you and make
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: your brain work better.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 5: You know, that's in my mind. And I'm like, I
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: don't know.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: I was like, if anything, it was probably more better
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: for me for just practicing and figuring out how to
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: do this ritual and make something. Then I think, in
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: my opinion, a lot of times that stuff, I think
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: it's more on how much this person is even going
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: to think it's going to work how much they even
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: put mind into it. If they don't think much about
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: it and just put it in their pocket, they're probably
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: not going to do much of anything. But then I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: think it could even maybe get to the point to
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: where somebody who just makes like a sigil much easier,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: faster way to have an intention and get that to
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: happen and it works. Maybe it could end up working
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: like that with somebody who really kind of puts a
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: lot of focus into what that equates and maybe what
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: they're trying to get done that maybe that could start
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: to happen but i don't know if most people will
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: go that far being given something like that.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah i think what you're talking about is like the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 6: magical placebo effect yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah right and.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: I mean i think there's something there regardless but it's
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: just you know how often does that happen i don't.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: Know there's also an important distinction to be made here
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: that if i create like if in this story that
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: you're telling like you created that sigil for yourself And
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: if you then hand it off to Eric, it might
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: not have much effect.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: If you created it for Eric in the first place,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: then it might have a much more powerful effect because
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: your intent is different.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: And so, you know, the, the tradition of creating spells
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: and giving them to people like is, goes back to Samaria. This,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: this used to be medicine, right? It used to be,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: here's your prescription. I made you a fucking sigil and
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: I'll go put it under your pillow and go to sleep.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: And that shit worked. Right.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: So, yeah.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: Then there's also times where I do think that maybe
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: I do question with especially the planetary sigils and like
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: certain angelic sigils that were done in those. Like I
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: do wonder, is there a possibility that those things, I mean,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: already knowing that like curves can create certain feelings and
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: lines and sharp edges can create certain feelings looking at them.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: Can some of these sigils actually tap into your consciousness
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: and like equate something or do something? And if that
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: case it does, then I do wonder if you put
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: that image onto something you give somebody, is it going
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: to work regardless because it has that image on it?
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 4: I've given many friends bind rooms when they ask me, like, hey,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: I'm moving. Can you help me make sure I get
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 4: this apartment? Sure, here's a bind room. I don't feel
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: good today. I'm healing. Here's a bind room. We actually,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: inside the Order of Chaos, we have what I call
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 4: the link sigil thread. So you guys are aware of
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: the link sigil, right? The old school LS link sigil, right?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: So we have our own link sigil for the Order
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: of Chaos that we all use. So if somebody wants
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: to manifest something, we'll get the whole group in on it,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: all using our link sigil, right? And we've had incredible
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 4: success with that. It's been awesome. So, you know, certainly
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 4: sigils can extend beyond the individual.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: Even like you just said, something I forgot about, the
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: color combination. Something I even had looked at when it
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: comes to those flashing colors, those color combinations, they've actually
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: studied them academically and I am going to eventually get
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: to it after Halloween or after the October season.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: Is that why I can't stand green and red together?
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: They, they, they, there is certain, some of them, I
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: think green and red might be one of them to
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: where it will almost start to make it look like
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: it's coming off the paper. If you look at it cross-eyed,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: that's like another thing too. If you look at some
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: of these things cross-eyed, you get a completely different experience.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and so I think Crowley really tapped... I'm not
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: the biggest fan of Aleister Crowley, but I think he
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: really fucking tapped into something. And if you have the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: addition of the Goetia with the essay, the initiated interpretation
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: of ceremonial magic by Aleister Crowley, he talks about the
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: spirits of the Goetia being portions of the brain and
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: that you are stimulating these portions of the brain to
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: cause particular effects. I think that that's what all magic is.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: It's manipulating your own brain to do what you want
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: it to do because your brain can manifest absolutely anything.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: Your brain also controls your bodily functions too. Totally.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: The only reason animals are aging right now, the only
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: reason I have gray hair is because this motherfucker in
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: here wants me to.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 4: If you could reverse that process, it's possible.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: That's, yeah. That's like, I even like, that's why I
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: kind of get, you know, I talk about a lot
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: how I think like the, that magic might be kind
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: of like a one version of magic.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 5: Could be separating your soul from your body.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: I still think in order for that to happen, you
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: have to mind fuck your brain to allow your body
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: to do it.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: Well, that's what astral projection is.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: So, like, I still think the medium, it's like you
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: have to master that motherfucker.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 5: And let it play, make it do what the fuck
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 5: you want.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: The best description of this that I've ever heard, the
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: most elegant, is from Carl Jung. Until you make the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: call it fate. But if you can tap into the
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: unconscious and start to work with it and get it
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 4: aligned with your conscious goals, you become superhuman, unstoppable.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: I can see that. Go ahead, Brian. Let it go.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: There's something here that I keep coming back to that
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: I keep hearing. And I think sometimes we.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: We lock ourselves into modes of perception and being that
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: I don't think we mean to at times. And it's
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: where we kind of start hailing and, and like as,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: as beautiful. And as I completely agree on a lot
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: of parts of like, when we use terms like it's
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: just this, like, Or it's just that.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: Get the word just out of there.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, get the word just out of there. We also
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: have to understand that what about the phantasmic, goric, the imaginal,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: that which we're trying to tap into by using... the
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: hardware of the body, brain, mind syzygy. Because once we
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: get locked into this idea that, well, it's just my
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: left brain talking to my right brain. It's like, well,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: that's one way of perceiving exactly what's happening with magic
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: because there seems to be something more going on than
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: just that.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: Because.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 4: That's the mechanical version of it.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: That's what I mean. And so that's one reality tunnel
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: that we can see to be able to do this
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: thing that we call material science to then try to
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: give a compartmentalization and more of a mechanistic worldview. And
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: so I'm here to bring the phenomenological to life. to
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: the conversation because it's really important to try to understand
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: how do we actually press, how do we actually experience
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: the world and what does that mean when the world
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: starts to reveal itself to us? And what that means
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: to me is that when I dream about, That yes,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: there's my brain is firing and my synapses are going,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: but my body is still, and I can, as we
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: brought up young, I can have my own personal subconscious
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: dreams that have nothing to do with the bigger scope
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: of the globe and what's going on in the unconscious.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: And so again, that's, that's my problem with psychology as such.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: is that we start to psychologize everything so much. And
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: then that's my problem with cognitive sciences, is that we
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: start to break things down into the cognitive route when
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, you're giving one example of something that
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: is actually much vaster and broad. Because if we start to, again,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: I love what Crowley talked about, what you said with
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: the Goetia, that if I'm massaging certain parts of my brain,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: that's one aspect of this one demon because it's right here.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: It's like, but... Also, it seems that there are these
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: eternal forces that are moving upon us and we can
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: be possessed by these things and we may see it
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 3: under a microscope that it's lighting up a portion of
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: my brain, but it seems to be something that is
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: else going on. And that is then how I can
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: bring in the idea of sigils again to the idea
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: is that when I'm creating my own sigil, it's from
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: my own little playground of the imaginal realms. And that
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: when I'm actually tapping into what, say, the Enochian tablets
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: were doing, or the god forms of old, or these symbols,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: these god symbols, these god glyphs, that those things were
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: given to man so that they can communicate with something
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: that is much vaster and broader than my own human
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: mind could ever come up with. And so it's like
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: in the, even though this is a very crass issue,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: it's like, if you've ever seen waking life, part of
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: the conversation that he has is he's talking to this
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: individual in his dream. And he's all like, this person
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: just told him something fucking wild. And he looks at me,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: he goes that I don't understand what you just said,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: but I know what you're saying. I've never thought of
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: that before, but you right now just told me this thing.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: And so it's like, it goes to the idea of
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: what we haven't talked about yet is this egregore. What's
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: the difference between an egregore and a God? There's a difference.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: And an egregore being in the idea of a collective
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: thought form that has become autonomous in and of itself,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: an autonomous entity. And then what are gods?
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: Gods are archetypal.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: Gods are archetypal and it's not psychological. Because Jung looked
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: at his Jungians and he said, you guys don't get me.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: You're not... understanding what I'm talking about you have to
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: go mad and when you go mad we can truly
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: break down all of these things from the scientific materialist
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: lens and we can truly get into that golden thread
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: that magicians, alchemists sages, mystics have tapped into for Yeah.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 4: Because they predate the human brain. That's what makes them gods,
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: is that they exist, but they existed before we did.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: And so we really are made in their image, right,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 4: in that sense. But I would say they're still psychological.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 4: They're not constructs, they're not inventions of psychology, they're aspects
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: of psychology that were there before the modern human brain was.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: So you can talk about it through the psychological lens. Yeah.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: But it's not just psychological and that's mine. None of
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: this is just anything.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: I hate that word. Get the fucking word just out
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 4: of here because it ruins everything. people's perception of what
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: magic really is, that word just, it poisons everything.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: It does. I always try to say when I start
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: going off with like my physiological shit or whatever, like
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: the more scientific shit, I'm always like, this is just,
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: I'll use just, but just one part of many reasons.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just, it could be, and I could
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: be wrong. I could be wrong. So it may not
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: even be anything. But if I'm right, it's one like
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: little thing of a layer of the meaning of whatever.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 4: That's the most important thing, I think, And I think
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: it's funny because I actually start my, I think it's
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 4: going to be the first sentence of my book, is
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: that I'm probably wrong about all of this. We don't
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: know fucking anything. None of us know anything. We don't
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 4: know what we are or why we're here. But we
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 4: can get as close to the truth as we can,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: and that's beautiful. But to think that you're right about
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 4: any of it is like, that's just hubris. We're definitely
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 4: all wrong.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 5: At some point.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: And then I like to reimagine that is that it's
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: not that we get close to truth. And this is
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: why I like the term alatheia. And I will continue
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: to say it until the end of days. It's a
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: Greek term of that means in English truth. But it actually,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: what it means is unconcealedness.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 4: That's cool, yeah.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 5: Reveal it.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: What's that word again?
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 3: Aletheia. A-L-E-T-H-E-I-A. Aletheia. Because if you think about what lethe means,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: which is forgetfulness, forgetting. And you add A to it, aletheia,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: it's aletheia then means, anamnesis means remembering, but like it's
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: a form of unconcealedness that allows us to discover that
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: which is already there. That's the idea about why the
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: phenomenological perspective and that study I just find so fascinating.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: is because that when we can see things through our,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: how we would say, how Heidegger would say our mode
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: of being is through the phenomenological perspective is that I am,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: this is one, this is actually how I experience things.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: And then my second mode of being is my breaking
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: it down into its many parts, that enlightenment Cartesianism, the
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: subject-object dualism. And then when I go back to it,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: and then I just want to forget that, but the
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: idea that I want to bring back up to the
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: imaginal is that the great glyph, of the tree of life.
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: Why is it so brilliant? It's brilliant because what all
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: the magicians have done by, by placing the tarot on
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: top of it and the major arcana and the paths
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 3: is that from Malkuth, the kingdom, the 10th Sephira, I
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: must walk up the 32nd path. And the 32nd path
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: is the path of the imagination. And so I think
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: there's something to that, is that all of the gods
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: and all of the angels and all of the everything
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: lies within the imagination. And that just isn't some mere...
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: construction of escapism that I'm trying to entertain myself when
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: I imagine a leopard in my mind's eye it's like
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: no it's like that that's why we use terms like
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: Jungian in the unconscious it's like the imagination the active
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: imagination that he taps into is tapping into this global
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: collective thing that we all can feel and moves us
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: and is this occulted force that is underlies that reveals
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: itself it unconceals itself to us when we go god
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: mad Which we have to be to even have this
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: fucking conversation, it seems like.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: I think so, too. But I also think that that word,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: so that word imagination, right?
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: Which used to be phantasmagoric. Phantasmagoric.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 4: That's a much better. Because people think now when you
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: say imagine, if you say imagination, they think, oh, made
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 4: up nonsense.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: You know, and people hear that and it's another one
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: of those words that's just kind of. lost its true
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: meaning and now people think it means something different and
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: that it becomes like the word just like, Oh, it's
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: all just imaginary. That, that statement is like, it's true.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 4: And you could take it to entirely different ways. One
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 4: is incredibly disempowering and one is incredibly empowering. Oh yeah.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: I agree. That's the problem of language.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: You know, I've even wondered, and then we'll get into it.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: Then I want to ask Sanre, actually, about, I guess,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: his specifics with the sigils. But again, for me to
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: even throw my whole, I guess, physiology idea into archetypes
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: and is it something real, is it something not, or
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: the mind and this and that. I have wondered, have
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: people in the past ever maybe created gods or archetypes
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: for like the things that your body does that you
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: don't have to think about. Like, I don't have to
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: think about breathing. My, yeah, I just fucking do it.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: Or like, so my, I'm not thinking about pushing my
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: blood through my body right now. You know, is there
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: like certain, those, those parts of like, you know, that
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: your body does that you don't have to think about
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: doing all the time just to survive.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 5: Did they ever like come up with like gods for that?
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: Cause I don't know.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 5: I'm not even thinking about it and it's coming, you know, it's,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 5: and it's happening.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I, you know, I have a first, just, I
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: think that we're getting a confusion on what archetypes are.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: Archetypes are instincts like breathing. Archetypes are, to bring in
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: the psychological, is that they're structures of the psyche and
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: in the unconscious, they're forces. that move through us like
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 3: our bodily instincts do.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 4: Psychic forces.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: There's psychic forces that are like our body. You know,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: like you see a dog outside and it's, you know,
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: Rico does this a lot where he's all like, he's
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: like a human. He's like, la, la, la, la, la.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 4: I'm Rico.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: And then a squirrel goes darting. He's like, holy shit.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: And he's gone. That's an instinct.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: That's what an archetype is.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 4: The best example anyone can ever give is anger. Anger
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 4: is an archetype that everyone can understand. It's something that
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 4: can possess you at any moment and make you do
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 4: things that you're like, why did I do that? Because
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 4: it takes over your entire nervous system.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 3: That's exactly what a god can do. The rage of Mars, right?
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 3: The wisdom of Athena, of war.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 4: And that's why every pagan pantheon has the same gods,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 4: just different names for the same archetypal structures. And they exist,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 4: like I said, before we did. They exist in primates.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 4: They exist in our fucking primordial ancestors.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: So I think the answer is yes, Nick. The breath
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 3: is Ruach.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I guess I never thought about all that.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: But I mean, even just like other things.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: Pneuma.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: Breath. Your heart beating. Oh, for sure.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 4: This is a really good point though, because what if
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: there can, maybe even should be an agregoric or a
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: name for God for the automated processes of the body.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: For the subconscious automated processes that we don't tap into.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: Well, the Chinese have them. And I will state that
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: the Chinese do have them. And that's what they do
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: with their Kung Fu, Gong Fu into their Nei Gong systems.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: And so when I'm teaching my students about how to breathe,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: I'm actually bringing it up in a way and how
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 3: to do certain forms. Say like for a Xinyi, for instance,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 3: is one of the three mother styles of internal Chinese
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: Kung Fu. And Xinyi, it's like technically it's like using
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: a spear. But each fist actually is being expelled from
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: an organ. And that organ actually has a glyph based
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: upon the five Chinese medicine elements integrated with the eight
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: trigrams of the Bagua. And so each trigram of the Bagua,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: which is a sigil, an ancient sigil or an ancient
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: glyph that they're getting that helps understand the Kun, right?
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: The lightning, the thunder, So they're all aspects that they're
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: then taking from the I Ching, which is one of
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: the oldest divinatory systems of magic there is that they
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 3: supposedly prophetically got from the shell of a turtle through
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: time 6,000 years ago in ancient China. And so I
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: completely think there is. And then that goes to my
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: question is why the fuck has the West lost their
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 3: integration of the embodied process of the human system? And
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: that's something I ask all the fucking time that nobody
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: can answer me. And the answer is the Inquisition. The
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: West lost everything.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 4: It's got stripped down. We don't have ritual. We don't
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 4: have anything that makes life... Everything that gives life meaning
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 4: has been systematically removed from American culture. The American and
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 4: the Canadian... Not Mexico, though. Mexico retained a lot of it.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 4: But Canada and America, and I don't know, I've never
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 4: been to Europe, but I think probably many parts of
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 4: Europe have just stripped it down. And that's true also with,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 4: speaking of, let me bring this back to sigils with
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 4: the English language. Because every other alphabet, I think, that's
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 4: ever existed every glyph has a meaning. It has a sound.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 4: It has a mythology. It has a character. It has
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 4: all these things. But the English alphabet is just sounds. A, B, C.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 4: That's all it is. We stripped out all the deeper
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: context of all of it. Uh, like every, every ruin,
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 4: for example, every letter in Hebrew, every, um, cuneiform glyph
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 4: is so much more than just a sound.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: That's yeah. That's what I was trying to get about before,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: even with, uh, yeah. When you want to start using
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: like Hebrew letters and stuff, everything like, yeah. Numerical value
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: as a, right.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 4: So like written languages were in fact, forms of sigil magic.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 4: And then, um, we kind of recreated that with the
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 4: English language with Pete Carroll and Austin Osmond Spare as
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 4: a way to maybe kind of bring that back. But
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 4: it already existed in all these other written languages.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that is true. What about you, Sam? When
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: you did sigils, how would you utilize them now? How
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: do you do them now?
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: Well, now I'm far more likely to use bind rooms
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 4: than traditional sigils. They're just more powerful. They're more direct.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 4: They're more aggressive. Sigils in the way that they are
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 4: made in Libra Null is something I still do quite often.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 4: But the reason I wrote this chapter in my book
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 4: called Making Better Sigils is that that particular method can
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 4: get very repetitive and boring. And something people need to
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 4: understand about magic is that if you get bored doing it,
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 4: it stops working. So I wanted to give people many
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 4: different ways to make sigils. And I strongly think that
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 4: everyone out there who's listening, if you want to do this,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 4: experiment with different ways. Because there's all these different ways
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 4: to create sigils. And I think that your brain really
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 4: responds to novelty. So you should try different ways of
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 4: doing it. So there's binders. I'm sure that someone else
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 4: invented this before I thought of it, but I included
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 4: it in my book. If you remove all the vowels
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 4: from the alphabet, you get a nice 4x5 grid where
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 4: everything lines up perfect. And then I use that as
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 4: a magic square. Nice.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 4: So that's another way. Or you could do geometric sigils.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 4: Or you could just do pure art. Just art.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 4: Just art is sigil magic too. You know, if you
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 4: infuse an intent into it.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 4: So I think that doing sigils in different new creative
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 4: ways makes them more effective because it has that aspect
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 4: of novelty to it.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: Now, if I remember correctly, I remember when I did
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: make the server tour, I did do it where I
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: kind of just took out, I guess, I forget the name.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: I created a name for it, and I made a
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: schedule for it. That's what it was. So I had
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: the name, and I had pretty much, I guess, your
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: petition made for what this thing's going to do as
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: exact as I could make it, which like Brandon was
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: saying before, there's been plenty of times when I'm trying
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: to create an image and I'm like, yo, I feel
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: like I'm fucking creating a servitor with this fucking prompt
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: statement that I'm giving chat GBT right now. I'm like,
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: this is unreal. I'm like, I didn't get this descriptive
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: until I did magical spells.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 4: You know, this really cool thing that I made for,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 4: for the order of chaos, it's a servitor creation sheet
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 4: and it's based on a dungeons and dragons character creation sheet.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 4: Because you're creating a character, you're creating a life form,
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 4: and then the method that I use is to create
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 4: a sigil for each. I give up to five functions
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 4: you want your servitor to enact. Create a sigil for
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 4: each one, create a sigil for its name, and then
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 4: we put those five sigils around a pentagram and the
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 4: name of the center.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, shit.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: That is wild. I like that. That's a fancy way
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: to do that shit.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: Holy crap.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: It's fun. But yeah, and then when I did do
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: the Servitor one, I just did it, I didn't do
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: it the magical square way. I did it kind of
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: like the other way where I took the letters, I
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: think I, I don't know, I don't remember how I
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: did the doubles or the, I probably took out the
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: doubles or whatever.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 5: I don't think there was a, yeah, whatever. And I made,
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 5: that I just did by art, kind of.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: You know, I took whatever letters and made designs out
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: of it and then kind of just created something You.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: Know what's interesting? I wanted to bring this up. I
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 4: have this book here. It's a dictionary of ancient magic
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: words and spells. And I was thinking about how we
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 4: got to this place where we're removing letters from statements
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 4: to make sigils, right? Well, that's not new. Do it
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 4: right there.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, with abracadabra.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all the way.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 4: Bring it down just to reduce it to its essence
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 4: so it's only that one letter remaining, but you've encoded
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 4: the entire statement into this one letter at that point.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I speak so it shall be.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 6: Something interesting, Sanre, that you pointed out. I also am
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 6: much more likely to make a bind rune than a
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 6: sigil these days. Although I would put bind rune under
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 6: the umbrella of sigils.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 6: For me, it is multiple layers of encoding. So I'm
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 6: starting the process by determining... what my intention is, what
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 6: my statement is. And then I am selecting runes that
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 6: best match that statement of intention, either symbolically, like what
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 6: their associated meaning is, or I could do like a
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 6: transliteration of my statement into Elder Futhark or something. Then
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 6: I take those runes and then I create a symbol
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 6: out of those runes. So there's these multiple tiers and layers.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 6: And if I'm going to go back and look at
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 6: that symbol, it's much less likely that I can reverse
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 6: engineer what the original statement.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 4: Of intention was that I'm going to do.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 6: And for me, and like magic doesn't always have to
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 6: be the most complicated thing. Like sometimes we complicate things
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 6: for the sake of complication, but I think this is
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 6: one of those times where a little bit extra complication
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 6: really goes a long way.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree. Um, You know what's funny? I have
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 4: a funny kind of story about that. It's that Pete
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 4: Carroll once got very angry at me because I pointed
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 4: out that sigil magic is basically just runic magic in English.
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: That's a really good point. That's a good way of
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: looking at it. I kind of like that.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: Pete and I had a lot of fun disagreements that
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: we would go back and forth about.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 5: And what was.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: What kind of runes was this again that you both mentioned? Sorry,
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: I totally forgot.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: The Elder Foo Fight.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can you just maybe let either one of you,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: or maybe both of you, kind of let people know
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: what that is, just a little bit? Sure.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 6: When we say runes, we are talking about the alphabets
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 6: used by Germanic-speaking peoples, like a bunch of different people, right?
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: And because.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 6: They spoke different languages and were influenced by other groups
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 6: of people who also spoke different languages... there are many
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 6: forms of this alphabet, which we call Futhark, usually. So,
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 6: just to kind of sum it all up, Elder Futhark
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 6: is the oldest of all of these alphabets. We know
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 6: the least about it, because it's so old. Nobody had
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 6: a dictionary before. said like this is what this letter
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 6: means what we have are rune poems that give us
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 6: the name and like a kinning which is basically a
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 6: descriptive statement about what the rune is so we have
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 6: symbols and descriptive statements about the symbols and every rune
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 6: represents like you were saying an image or an idea
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 6: or a thing like an ox right and a sound,
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 6: but they're not tied to one particular language. They are
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 6: phonemes or speech sounds, so they can be used to write, theoretically,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 6: any language.
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 4: I'm always confused about this. I keep hearing different things.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 4: I know it's at least one of the oldest languages
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 4: that we're aware of. I don't know if it predates
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 4: cuneiform or not, though.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know that.
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 5: I don't know that.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 6: I think 200 BCE, I'm just throwing that number out there,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 6: is when it was being used a lot. I think
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 6: probably there are at least a few forms of writing
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 6: that go much further back.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 4: One of the things that I think is particularly beautiful
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 4: about the Elder Futhark is that it's made entirely of
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 4: straight lines at 55 degree angles. And so you can
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 4: stack them on top of each. You can make the
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 4: most fucking death metal-looking logo for your band out of runes.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 4: Or you can make these really nice staves. You could
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 4: even do a full sentence. You could go this way,
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 4: you could go that way, you could start across, you
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 4: could make them circular. But they all fit and stack
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 4: together geometrically in a very pleasing way.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 6: And there is a wonderfully practical reason for that, which
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 6: is they were originally.
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 3: used.
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 6: To carve messages into wood. And if you carve a
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 6: horizontal line across the grain of the wood, you'll split
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 6: the wood.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, I didn't know that. That's so cool. Yeah.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 6: As luck would have it, I wrote an entire book
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 6: about this topic and it's going to come out in june.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 4: No no shit very cool so i don't you know
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: what is it's funny because i i don't um i
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 4: don't carve my runes what i do is i go
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 4: to michael's and i get like wood uh those little
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 4: cheap wood circles and i have a wood burning tool
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 4: and i burn my runes into it it's because you
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 4: know modern convenience but um i think that also is
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 4: more effective than just pen to paper.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: You you know why uh i was just like you
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: just reminded me One of the other reasons why I
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: even kind of went to these whole magical squares is
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: because I was intrigued with doing more of, like, I guess,
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: angelic work, where I work with, like, you know, angels
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: from the Kabbalah or planetary, you know, intelligences or whatever
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: they consider them. And when I... Zafgiel, I think, might
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: go along with Chesed, if I remember correctly.
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 5: I would use that quite often, and I.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: went out and actually put like a wood burning thing
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: and a round disc of wood and burnt the sigil
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: into it and just reused that over and over every
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: time I worked with them instead of making a new
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: one and throwing it out, you know. And I actually
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: enjoyed making it. It was pretty cool.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 4: This is, I mean, I can't believe I haven't said
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 4: that yet in this entire podcast. But the cool thing
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 4: about sigil magic is that it is so incredibly effective
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 4: and powerful and diverse, right? So we've talked about all
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 4: these different ways to think about and use sigil magic
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 4: that are wildly different from each other. And they're all effective, right?
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 4: Like this idea of symbols and symbolism in general, right?
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 4: Because a sigil is a symbol, right? And a symbol
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 4: is the thing that has the most effect on your
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 4: psychology of anything else. So for example, if you think about, uh,
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 4: was it, was it mainly people who wrote man in
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 4: the symbols? No, it was, um, was it? Yeah. So
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 4: this idea that everything in your entire reality is a symbol, right?
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 4: That reality itself is symbolic. Reality itself is a hyper sigil, right?
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 4: Everything in your reality is telling you something. And that's
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 4: where you get the, the active divination, right? And divination is,
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 4: can be to extract information from your environment. So if you,
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 4: for example, the ability to read signs and omens from
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 4: the environment, even that is deeply connected to symbol magic,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 4: sigil magic, symbol magic. It's all the same thing. So
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 4: understand that symbols deeply affect your psychology. And they're affecting
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 4: you all day, every day, every symbol you see. has
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 4: an effect on your psychology and that affects your mode
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 4: of operation throughout the way that you enact yourself through
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: the world.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that enact part is what's so important is
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: that it's not a representation of, it's a participation with. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 4: It's relationship. And that's animism, to understand that you're in
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 4: relation with everything in your environment. So this is what
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 4: I'm saying is that symbols, this is the core of
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 4: what magic is. That's why sigils are so fucking effective.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 4: And this is interesting to me because of the two
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 4: things within the realm of magic that I think get
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 4: the most like, oh, I'm not going to mess. That's
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 4: lame is crystals and sigils. And these are the two
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 4: most objectively explainable and most effective ways you can work
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 4: with your environment and with reality. And they're the ones like, oh,
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 4: that's just a bunch of nonsense. people i mean how
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 4: does your phone work exactly how does all technology work
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 4: it's all crystals.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 3: Weird What's in your brain?
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 3: Piezoelectricity is in the pineal gland, which is crystal technology.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: Fascinating.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 4: The only reason we're able to have this conversation from
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 4: four different parts of the world is because of crystals.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: Fucking crystals.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: Isn't that wild?
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 4: Silicon Valley.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and little Ethiopian children mining them.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: That's... That's so fucked up.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 3: That's great. Great isn't fucked up, but hilarious.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? That's such an example of
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 4: how magical the world really is. All technology is magic.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 4: It's crystal magic. That's what it is. Our reality is
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 4: far more akin to a fantasy novel than people realize.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 3: That's what I've been saying.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 4: Yo, for real.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 3: That's what I've been saying. That's what I've been saying.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 3: That's why we got to become our own fucking superhero.
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 3: And that's why we take our mind back from those
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 3: who have been trying to tell us what stories to
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 3: listen to.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: Fuck.
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 3: Figure out your favorite fucking superheroes, anime characters. and and
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 3: just mold yourself as we strip away the layers david
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 3: making um as michelangelo what is it uh fucking donatel
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 3: michelangelo whoever which one of the fucking ninja turtles was
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 3: the sculptor who made david right.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 4: He didn't add michelangelo.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah thank you he took away you know a sculptor
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 3: takes away sees the image takes away from it and
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: so this is my mod this is my modern occultism
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 3: problem that i can't fucking stand is that everyone's trying
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 3: to add on identifiers by trying to be this or
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 3: that by adding on layers it's like alchemy takes away
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 3: that fucking burns away that which doesn't suit us so
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 3: we can keep what is there the crystalline aspects of
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 3: ourselves So we can fucking transform.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 4: Just like we removed the letters from the statement of intent.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 3: That's beautiful, Sunray.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 4: Bring it down to its essence.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 3: Exactly. That's beautiful.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 3: I like that. That's exactly it. Look at us fucking go.
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 4: There's one more thing I wanted to bring up. Please, please.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 4: If you guys don't mind. So Brandon brought up hyper
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 4: sigils earlier. So this is a really, really cool thing
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 4: that I want to talk about for a second that
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 4: we're doing over at The Order of Chaos. And that
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 4: we are creating a tabletop rpg called hyper sigil that
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 4: is a this is dungeons and dragons with magical intent
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 4: built in so that every one p or like one
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 4: every uh what we call a one-shot adventure will have
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 4: will incorporate sigils from all people playing with their own
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 4: statements of intent and we will enact like act those
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 4: out in the game in order to create the effects
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 4: in the real lives of the players. That's something we're
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 4: developing right now. We haven't played our first game yet.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 4: We're still working on the rules and the structure of
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 4: the game and the lore and all of that. But
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 4: it's just really, that's like the most exciting thing going
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 4: on right now over at TSC.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: Nice, nice. You know, I wanted to ask, did any
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: of you, Eric, Brandon, Hassan, right, Whenever you did sigils,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: did you ever do any kind of ceremonial ritual stuff
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: with them, or was it more just right then and there?
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: How did that work?
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, when I was.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, definitely. I would do my whatever.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: For me, it was like poetry. So I would have
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 3: my own poetic drama where I would do my meditation
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 3: and then start my... my ritual through a very, I'm
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 3: very vocal. So my poeticness, and then I would break
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 3: that down and then I would go back to my, my,
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 3: my meditational state and then focus on that. And so I, yeah, definitely.
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 3: I find for me, it was very ceremonial and ritualistic to,
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 3: and then, then do the thing where it's all like gone, boom,
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 3: burn that bitch in the fire of my flame before me. Yeah.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 4: I think that there's, just many different ways to do
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 4: this and they're all good and they're all different functions.
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 4: So like I said, I've created a audio ritual that
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 4: you can follow along with, with any binder and residual
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 4: and have a full, full ritual involving candles and, and everything,
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 4: you know, it takes about 15 minutes and I created
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 4: that as a full ritual to be used with sigils.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 4: But at the same time, back when I had a
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 4: corporate office job, when I was supposed to be taking
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 4: notes with whatever the fuck my boss was saying, I
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 4: was just inscribing Fehu over and over and over again.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 4: So I get the fuck out of there.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It depends.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 6: It depends on the feel of the situation and the
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 6: need of the situation. And there's been times where I've
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 6: had multiple layers of ceremonial magic embedded in the thing
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 6: that I'm doing. And this sigil making is part of
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 6: that process. And then there's times when it's like, oh, hey,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 6: give me a piece of paper. Okay, here's the sigil
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 6: that we're going to use, right? It just, it depends
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 6: on what the situation feels like. And I wouldn't say
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 6: there's any rhyme or reason necessarily to what's needed, because
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 6: sometimes it's a really important thing that you're trying to manifest,
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 6: but you need the simple, quick process so you can
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 6: start working now. And sometimes it's just something that Maybe
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 6: it's more mundane, but it feels like it needs more
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 6: involved work, and you need to ritual it up.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 4: Well, one aspect of ritual that I include, and I'm
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 4: going to say almost all my sigil work, which is
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 4: not everyone's going to like this. That's fine. But something
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 4: I almost always do is add a drop of blood
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 4: to all my sigils right on top.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: I have done that actually a few times. It was
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: fucking crazy. I'm not telling people to go out and
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: do this.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 4: I think I.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: Got one of those diabetic fingerprint things to do it.
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 4: I have a box of those right here. I have
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 4: a box of a hundred of them. And whenever I
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 4: always want to say this, whenever I bring up doing.
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 5: Blood, I was like, I'll fuck this up.
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 4: Do not go buy some fucking rest. athame and slice
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 4: your hand open. No, that's fucking stupid. Like get, get
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 4: a sterile medical needle.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: It's thrown out.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 4: Single use sterile medical needle and dispose of it properly.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: So you can.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 4: Get a pack of a hundred of them on Amazon.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 5: I realized how cheap it was. It was like, why even,
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 5: why is this a question?
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 4: And another thing is that more blood does not mean
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 4: more power. Just put a drop of blood on your sigil,
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 4: or you could put a drop of blood into the
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 4: flame of a candle, and it's going to add a
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 4: lot to your magic. And from my perspective, what it's doing, right?
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 4: Let's say you're deeply focused on a future you want
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 4: to see come to fruition or something, a desire. Well,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 4: that desire is pumping through your blood in the form
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 4: of dopamine, neoprenephrine, serotonin, et cetera. It's a chemical signature.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 4: I'm just adding that chemical signature to my magic.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: You might have even created that throughout just the whole
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: idea of what you're about to do and everything, too. Like,
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: there could even be stuff going on inside your brain
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: that wasn't 10 minutes ago. Yeah, it's out.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 4: It's in your blood.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've done that.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 4: You're making chemical changes.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 5: I've done that stuff before.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: The few times that I did use blood, I do
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: remember it was always on a sigil that I did burn, too.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: Assuming that, you know, it was, like, burning the tension.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 4: But you know what's another cool method that I haven't
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 4: done in a while because... I don't like collecting things,
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 4: like I'm a minimalist person. So, for example, you know
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 4: how if you do a jar spell and you want
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 4: to kind of reinvigorate that jar.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: Spell, you shake it up, right?
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 4: Well, if you keep all your sigils in a book,
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 4: like Eric was saying, and then every once in a
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 4: while you just flip through the book, you have no
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 4: idea what any of these are for. You don't remember
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 4: which individual sigil is for, but you can just flip
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 4: through them all, get them all back into your subconscious,
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 4: and they all start working again. Hmm.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: I could see that possibly working for sure. It would
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: make sense.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 4: Typically, I do burn myself because it's fun and I
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 4: like fire. There's lots of different ways to do this.
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: Of course, yeah. I know that there was even times,
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: I guess even showing like, you know, I have done
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: it plenty of times where it was pretty much right
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 2: on the spot. Or it was something to where it's
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: just like, if I want to take this in a
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: ceremonial route, it's just, I can't wait because I'm going
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: to start worrying about the exact day and the hour,
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: which is something I didn't mention before. that I would
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: even mention now, sometimes with certain sigils and talismans, if
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: I was going to do that ritual that I was
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: explaining before, like go that far into doing something with Mars,
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: I'm probably even going to construct that sigil and possibly
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: the talisman maybe the same day, but at a different hour,
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: either the hour from Mars in the morning, and then
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: maybe I'll do the ritual at night, or I might
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: even do it on another Mars day, at whatever time,
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: you know, Mars hour, and then do the ritual a
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: week later. But I wouldn't even get that specific where
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: I'm creating the fucking sigil on, you know, whatever, Tuesday
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: at an hour of Mars.
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 4: My ADHD has never allowed me to do that. I
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 4: like the idea of planetary timing. I tend to use
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 4: lunar timing because it's just a little looser.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah. Then you've got to tie that in there, too.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: Am I bringing something in, getting rid of something? Yeah.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 4: Because this has happened to me on multiple occasions. I've
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 4: tried to use planetary timing, and then I'm sitting in
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 4: my living room playing Doom. I'll be like, oh, fuck!
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 4: It was an hour ago. God damn it. And then
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 4: I have to wait for.
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: The next one.
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 3: Now to be the hierophant of the conversation, to make
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: a talisman, it has, you have to do that.
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah.
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 3: You have, you have over here. She would be like,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 3: what the fuck are these guys talking about? You have
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 3: to have the astral astrological timing down to impart the
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: stars forces into it.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: That is, yeah. If you want to get technical, that talisman, yeah,
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: it would be associated with all that shit, which.
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 5: Is probably why I took it that far.
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, What else was I– all right. I asked
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: about the– there was something else I wanted to ask
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: you guys, just experiences with sigils, and I can't remember now. Sorry.
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: Was there anything else that you guys wanted to add, like, with, like,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: how you constructed them or any other– I guess more of, like,
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: on how you actually created them and stuff, really, or
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: how you charged them.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 4: So that's a good question because to me, this is
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 4: another thing where Pete and I kind of went back
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 4: and forth on this, and I think it's just up
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 4: to the individual. So to me, like the charging of
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 4: a sigil, I go into a trance state while creating
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 4: a sigil, and that's the charging. I put on music,
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 4: and this is in the artistic portion. So there's like
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 4: the writing of a statement in town should be focused.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 4: Then you should reduce it down to its letters, and
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 4: then at that point is when I would say start forgetting.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 4: start forgetting what the intent even was in the first
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 4: place and focus on the art of it, of creating
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 4: a symbol that's aesthetically pleasing to you.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 4: Cause then you're incorporating some joy into the process, which
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 4: I think also makes your magic work much, much better.
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 4: Have fun.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 3: Um, it's the enthusiasm.
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. So that's the charging for me. And then
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 4: the releasing is the blood and the burning or the,
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 4: the whatever buried under a full moon, you know, we'll do.
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 6: I have a current favorite method, which piggybacks off of
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 6: the whole bind rune thing. So I take the original
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 6: runes that were in the formula, and I say each
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 6: one of their names, but I vibrate and I intone
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 6: in one big, long, powerful breath. And then I do
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 6: this a whole bunch of different times, but every next
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 6: time you.
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 6: You shorten the space between each letter and you lengthen
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 6: the sound of the letter. So at the end of
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 6: this process, you just have one like.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 3: Weird vowel sound. And you do that.
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 6: More intensely and more intensely as you would, you know, like,
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 6: you know, you're vibrating the LBRP directions or something kind
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 6: of like without Every ounce of power.
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 3: In your body, in the breath.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 6: And by the end of that process, you should have
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 6: kind of been taken into a trancy meditational state. And
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 6: it's a point of gnosis. And you feel when it's ready.
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 6: And then you're like, all right, yeah, that's done.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 4: That's, I love that. And that's, so that's something I
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 4: should just talk about when we were talking about binders
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 4: is that another reason that I find binders to be
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 4: just generally superior to English sigil magic is that when you,
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 4: anytime you create a binder and as a, as a side,
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 4: like a side effect or side, you know, what support
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 4: I'm looking for byproduct, you get a mantra. You get
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 4: a mantra from just from the runes that you're using.
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 4: So you could create a bind rune from Fehu, Uruz, Othala, Soilo,
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 4: and then you get the mantra as well. And you
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 4: can recite the mantra over and over again. I love
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 4: what you're doing with shortening the spaces. I've never thought
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: That's cool. Yeah, that's like, oof.
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 4: That's very cool.
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see that being coming. I don't know.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: I might get some breathing effects going on there, you know? Right.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: That's pretty freaking cool.
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 4: And you can't really do that with the traditional sigil
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 4: because you can't recite your statement of intent because then
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 4: you're going to remember it. And if you recite just
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 4: the letters, it has to sound ridiculous. A, C, W,
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 4: whatever the fuck, right? But having it be in the,
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 4: I don't even know what the name of the Germanic language, right?
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 4: Adds also that effect of psychodrama. See, it just smushes
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 4: so much into this little package, and that's why behind-the-scenes
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 4: are so powerful.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: That's interesting. I like that, Eric. That's pretty cool. Sean Ray,
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 2: you good? Yeah, I'm good. Randy, you got anything you
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: want to add before we wrap it up?
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 3: No, I'm feeling pretty good. I think magic is something
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 3: that is beyond explanation, and yet we've figured out how
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 3: to tap into a current by using certain tools and
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 3: techniques that are an embodied act, and it's within the
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 3: embodied act that magic takes place when we are able
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 3: to finally tap into that, which was almost unexplainable. And
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 3: so it's a beautiful thing that we try to put
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 3: language to And it's hard at times and that there
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 3: are techniques and systems to use to be able to
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 3: do it.
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: Do it.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 3: That's the thing.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 4: Do it.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 3: Do magic. Do magic. Train Kung Fu. Sorry. Always got
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 3: to get that in there. But do magic in Kung
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 3: Fu as in self-mastery. It's like it's an embodied act.
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 3: And when we move, we move with intent. And that
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 3: intent is a magical act.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Brent. Thank you all very much for coming on, man.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: I appreciate all of you coming on for two hours,
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: two hours and two minutes.
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we should do another one. These are fun.
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, for sure.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 4: We should do one, Nick, for our favorite magic in media.
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 4: Because we're talking about full metal.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, that would be fun.
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 4: I could talk about Star Wars forever.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, that could be fun, man. I could nerd out
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: on Twin Peaks or something. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 5: I'd be totally down for that, for sure, for sure.
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 2: I did definitely have other ideas, too. Actually, I got
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: Kaiva coming on on the 25th, I think, to do
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: astrology 101 for people.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a genius. Yeah, I figured it would be great.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 3: She's a fucking genius. She studies more traditional astrology. She's
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 3: a traditional astrologer. who is a practicing traditional astrologer. I'm
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 3: going to plug her right now. Everyone go over to
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 3: 11kiverose33 if you want one of the greatest readings of
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 3: your entire life. She doesn't fuck with the pops. nonsense.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 3: She goes strictly into, um, she reads the charts. She's
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 3: tapped into your head to the highest, highest of all highs.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 3: And she studies more than anybody I've ever seen study, um,
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 3: astrology from the ancient of ancients all the way up.
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 3: So Um, she's got some of the best teachers out there,
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 3: so everyone should listen next week, Friday. Um, she's coming
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 3: on here.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. I think, uh, yeah, that's going to
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: be fun. I'm actually, yeah, I'm going to try to
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: get her, you know, cause I wanted to kind of
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: make it like, um, because even when she was on,
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: I'll keep it, I'll keep it real because I'm not
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: into astrology that much.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 5: Some of that shit started sounding like another language to me.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: Oh, it is.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 5: So I was like, you know what?
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: I'm going to create kind of like a list of like, yo,
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: can you actually like break down these words? So like
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 2: we kind of understand what you're saying when you start
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: spit firing your whole thing. And I'm just like, all right,
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: I'm lost now, bro.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 4: I know it's a pain. I know astrology is like, it's.
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 5: Like, but I think it's so worth knowing.
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 4: It's so worth it.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 5: Hell yeah.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: The very little that I do understand, I think is
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 2: worth it. So I could see going even deeper into
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 2: it and getting very.
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 3: And she knows not only astrology, she knows the astronomy
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 3: because you need the astronomy with the astrology. We live
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 3: outside of town where we live. Um, and so we're
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 3: very lucky to have the night sky. We go out
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 3: there every night and she knows every constellation.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: That is cool.
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 3: She plays her liar to the stars.
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 4: I took my son out the other night and we, uh,
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 4: we just got an app, but we're like looking at
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 4: it again. That was so much fun.
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 3: Yes. And that is where Matt, that's Matt. Astrology is
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 3: where magic comes from. You know, it's like, it's, I mean,
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 4: It's where religion comes from. Yeah, it is. It comes from,
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 4: it's like the fucking, it's at the beginning of all
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 5: Uh, Sanre, let everybody know what's up with you. Promote
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 5: your book.
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 2: It's going to be out in two weeks.
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 4: Holy shit. My name is Sanre. I'm an author. I'm
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 4: a YouTuber. I run a school called The Order of
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 4: Chaos at Colt University. My book will be out in
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 4: two weeks. It's the most terrifying and exciting thing that's
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 4: ever happened to me. so it's i'm getting like stress
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 4: sick from it right now i think that's why i
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 4: was sick yesterday but at the same time like i
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 4: just got the final pdf back i'm like it's real
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 4: it's done it's a book the physical copies are waiting
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 4: for me at the post office right now holy shit
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 4: right it'll be in stores in two weeks and it's
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 4: called chaos witchcraft it is a a more spiritual and
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 4: kind of alternative take on chaos magic because i was
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 4: a student of pete carroll for a long time and
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 4: we just we kind of had our disagreements about the
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 4: way that we think reality works. And so I kind
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 4: of took it in a different direction. I view the
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 4: gods as being, you know, real, as real as anything is. Right.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 4: And so that's kind of the difference between chaos magic
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 4: and what I call chaos, which Jeff is that I'm
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 4: just not an atheist. Nice. Nice.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 5: Good luck.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: Good luck.
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 3: I would say that's one of my things with Peter. Yeah,
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 3: that's good.
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 5: Do you want to let people know about your– you
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 5: have a Discord, right?
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 3: Well, so, yeah.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, we do have a private Discord community,
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 4: but that is for enrolled students.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 2: At the RKS University.
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 4: If you want to join the university, I give a
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 4: live lecture every Tuesday. We do a live Q &
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 4: A every Sunday. We add new content all the time.
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 4: You know, we do a lot of stuff there, but
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 4: the best thing about it is the community. It's awesome.
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 4: You know, we have very, very simple rules here. treat
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 4: everyone with kindness, dignity, and respect. And as long as
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 4: you can do that, then you can join us. It's
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 4: 35 bucks a month, or you can get an annual
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 4: pass for $ 200.
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: I've heard a very, very good things about it. So yeah,
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: go check it out. And, uh, thank you very much.
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: Sorry for coming on. Always appreciate what you have to.
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Thanks for having me. Eric, what is up?
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 2: Please let everybody know what's up with you, your new
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: book coming out, your old book, you.
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 6: Know, summary of this conversation.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 3: Sigils are everything.
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 6: But guys, you can hop on over to my YouTube
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 6: channel at Eric Arcadian.
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 3: Give me a subscribe.
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 4: Watch one of my videos.
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 6: You can go on Amazon or go to your local
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 6: book shop and tell them to carry my book, fluid condensers,
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 6: or you can preorder my upcoming book, which is called
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 6: runes rediscovered.
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 4: And that'll be out in June.
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 2: I should go down to, there's a few shops not
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: too far away from me that actually have like witch
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: stuff in it. See if any of them have books.
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 2: If they don't have it, I'll drop your name. I'll
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, I heard this book's good. You happen
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 2: to have it? When I already know they don't because
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 2: I've looked at everything. Because I think they already sent
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: me a book anyway. So if she came out and
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 2: pulled it out, I'd be like, fuck, I actually don't
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: need it. I already have it. So I got to
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: make sure it's not there. But yeah, that's actually a
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: really good idea to tell the bookstore to carry it.
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 2: I never thought of that. Nice, nice. Now, when these
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: books come out, if somebody was to put one in
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: a library, would they take it and actually put it
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: in rotation? Like put it in with the books?
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 3: I think if you asked.
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: I have no idea.
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if you asked, they would. Yeah, definitely.
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 2: Or like when people donate books to the library, would
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 2: they just take that and be like, all right, we'll
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: see where this goes?
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, IBDDM and those things.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 6: No, I know.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: I've always wondered about that. Like, could somebody actually go, like,
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 2: take somebody's book and just put it in the library?
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: I'm like, fuck it. Now it's there for anybody to
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 2: go and take out. If somebody ever thinks about looking
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: for it. Like, is that how it gets into a library?
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 2: Is that how easy it is? I don't know.
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 2: Who knows? All right. Sorry. And Brandon, go ahead, sir. Nice.
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 3: Thank you. This great conversation is wonderful to be here
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 3: with both Sanre, Eric, and obviously Nick. This has been fun.
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 3: Two hours of just geeking out on magic, specific magic
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 3: niches as we try to pull ourselves back from the
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 3: wider world. The wider conversation. Yeah, so this is great.
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 3: I'm excited for whatever the next one is that we
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 3: all do together. Everybody out there, if you haven't already,
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 3: make sure to subscribe, like, and share to every single
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 3: one of these fine gentlemen. In this sea of chaos,
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of nonsense, charlatans. snake oil salesmen. And
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 3: I'd like to think that we're trying to formulate a
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 3: community that is at least cutting through that bullshit, no
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 3: matter what kind of nervous system it's seen through. Because
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 3: each one of us, of these quadrants here, of these
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 3: four individuals, we have our own magic. That's the beauty.
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 3: It's like JKD. It's like Jeet Kune Do. It's like
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 3: what Bruce Lee said. Take what is useful, discard what
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 3: is useless, and make it essentially your own. And that
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 3: is the magical act of the sovereign magician. I think
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 3: that's the most important thing that we can do here today.
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 3: is to try to make sure we have that gung fu,
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 3: that centering and that mastery of self through time. So yeah,
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 3: subscribe to all the things. I got a lot of
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 3: stuff going on. I'm now, you can find Magus in
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 3: the media on all your favorite podcast apps. And so
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 3: I'm slowly putting out all of our episodes. Not only
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 3: am I doing interviews like the newest one that's coming
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 3: out because it's taking for fucking ever. But me and
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 3: Freighter RC are dropping the interview that we did. I
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 3: did with him. And it is a conversation on the
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 3: great Reverend Maynard James Keenan and all his great bands
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 3: and everything. So we spent three hours nerding it out.
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 3: on Tool, Perfect Circle, and Puss in Fur. And just
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 3: FreighterRC being FreighterRC and just kind of talking mad as
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 3: he does. I'm also bringing on David Rankin. He's coming on.
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 3: David Shoemaker's coming back. Trying to get in touch with
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 3: a few other people.
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 4: David Shoemaker is so great. He's one of the most
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 4: fun conversations I've ever had. He's awesome.
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 3: I love David Shoemaker. He's such a nice guy. My
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 3: first interview with him was fantastic and I can only,
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 3: I've got more questions. And so I'm excited. That's coming
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 3: in the beginning of next month.
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 2: Good for you.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 4: You know who you should try to get on, Brandon,
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 4: to do your show is Mitch Horowitz.
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 3: I am going to reach out to him today.
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 2: He was a fun guy.
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 4: He was awesome. Yeah.
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 2: Very intense.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, and I love that, and I'm excited for that. Yeah,
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 3: so it's funny that you say that, Sunray. I was
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 3: driving home because when he was on the rejects, he's
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 3: all like, yeah, reach out. I was like, great, and
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 3: I haven't done it yet. And so that's going to, yeah.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 4: Mitch is like, of all the people in the cult universe,
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 4: I look up to the most is Mitch.
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's got a good message. Yeah, I like what
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 3: he's doing, and he just went on some huge podcasts.
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, that I think do help give the cult community
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 2: a little bit better of a look. He's the best.
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 4: Spokesperson that we could ever hope for. He's so educated.
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 4: He's so kind. Yeah, amazing. His new book is fucking
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 4: incredible too. It's so good.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 2: I should read that.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 3: Nice. And then Kaiva and I are doing shows every
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 3: Monday night or Tuesday night, depending on what you did.
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 3: So make sure you check out our live shows. We're
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 3: talking more about just all the things that her and
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 3: I love to talk about. You can go back and
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 3: see those. Nick comes on at the same time and
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 3: we talk mad. We are all mad here.
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 2: Always have a good time.
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 3: And so hopefully if you're not busy, Nick, tomorrow night
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 3: I'm free. And so we're going to do another show
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 3: if you want to come on.
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you'll see the great Cardinal Head himself
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 3: with Kaiva and myself. And so we're going to talk
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 3: all great things. I just had White Rabbit on. Oh,
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 3: he's a cool dude. I'm going to have Outside Men's
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 3: cast on Friday. I'm most likely going to be having
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 3: these two beautiful men on. They just don't know it yet,
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 3: and we'll talk mad just like it. If Piers Morgan,
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 3: Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, and all these crazy streamers can
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 3: fucking do it, why can't we? We might as well
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 3: talk mad and bring magic back into the media. Again,
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 3: thank you, everybody.
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 4: It is so funny to me how much of those
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 4: particular characters talk about what we talk about with the
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 4: most dipshit fucking understanding.
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 6: Yeah!
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 3: And I'm taking it upon myself to try to bring
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 3: that back. I completely agree. I have a bunch of
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 3: their stuff saved on my YouTube file, so I can
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 3: be like, I'm going to talk about what they're saying.
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 4: Just enough to convince people who don't know anything that
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 4: they know something, but anybody who actually knows something, like,
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 4: what the fuck are you talking about?
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: I know, I know.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 3: And then they have dumbasses like Sean Stone come on
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 3: there talking about Freemason. He knows nothing.
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 4: Tucker had that one dude on who was, like, supposedly
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 4: a demonologist.
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, I heard that.
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 4: For one thing. And everything he said was, like, the
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 4: most kindergarten fucking understanding of this topic.
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, I got to check this out, then. I heard
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 2: it was horrible. It was so bad.
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, from a cultist, I heard it was horrible.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: Put it that way.
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the conspiracy community, you know, ate it up. It's
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 5: like more dicks and demons for them, I think.
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 5: That's all it is.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 4: Conspiracy... Because, you know, last time I was on, Nick,
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 4: we were talking to the paranormal researcher. I can't remember
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 4: his name all of a sudden. I feel bad. It's ADHD.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 4: It's not personal. You know, paranormal researchers and conspiracy people
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 4: conspiracy theories, they could really benefit from occult education.
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 5: All around, both.
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 2: I think they're integrated.
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 4: I wish that would happen.
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 3: It needs the occult. It needs the understanding of the
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 3: hidden forces because that's what the fuck they're talking about.
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 3: And then we can't all just talk about the dark.
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 3: It has to be the light, too. And that's where
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 3: you get people like, again, I always name him fucking
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 3: Isaac Weishaupt.
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 4: Whatever the fuck.
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 3: It's not like, god damn it. We need to not
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 3: just talk about all the dangers of Yeah. Because all
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 3: their religious stuff is occult. That's my, that's like, what's
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 3: going on?
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 4: Oh, go to Catholic mass. It's the most occult experience
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 4: you'll ever have.
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 3: Fucking ortho bros. It's like, Jesus Christ. Are you kidding me?
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 3: They wear the whole garb. You just got to put
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 3: the hood on it with the fucking. Yeah.
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 5: Wild stuff.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: Definitely wild outfits.
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 5: But, uh, thank you all. Thank you everybody. Who's some
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 5: names in here. I think we're here at the beginning.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 5: So thank you.
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 2: That's what's up. This was, uh, over two hours. Uh, Yeah,
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: it was a great episode, though. Thank you all very much.
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 2: I appreciate all your time. Again, guys, coming on for
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 2: that long and talking that much and dealing with everybody.
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that. And until the next one, everybody be well. Later.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 4: Close your eyes. Look into the darkness.
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: Find the blazing star. Focus on it. And become the eclipse.
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: Don't fear. Let the show begin. In death, there is awe.
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 6: In death, there is awe.