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The Disappearance of Margaret Fleming · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, so today we're going to Scotland and we're going
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  to look into a disappearance that well, frankly went unnoticed
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  for a really long time. It's the case of Margaret Fleming. Okay,
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  she disappeared in nineteen ninety nine. But here's the thing,
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  no one reported her missing for almost seventeen years.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 1: It's a really strange one. And you've given me some
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  news articles about Margaret's life and you know, her disappearance
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  and then the trial, and it's quite a story.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really gets under your skin when you start
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  looking into it. You know, it wasn't like a big
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  headline grabbing mystery or anything when it first kind of
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  came to light. I think what makes Margaret's story so
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  compelling is it really highlights how vulnerable someone can be,
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  especially when they fall through those cracks in society. It's
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  almost as if she was invisible.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is heartbreaking. And you know, reading through
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  these articles, you start to get this picture of her
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  early life in Port Glasgow. She was quiet, she had
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  learning difficulties. School seemed like a real struggle.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can see how those early challenges especially
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  you know, mixed in with kind of a difficult family
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  life really set the stage for what unfortunately became a
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  very isolated existence for her. I mean, imagine, you know,
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  you're twelve years old, your parents divorce, and then just
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  a few years later you lose your dad to cancer,
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  and the article suggests that he was really a significant
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  source of stability for her.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's after he passes away that Edward Kearney
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  and Aerril Jones they come into the picture. They were
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  supposed to care for Margaret. You know, if anything happened
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  to her dad. It almost feels like a tragic twist
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  of fate.
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  Speaker 2: It does, doesn't it. This this well intentioned request, you know,
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  to make sure she was cared for, it ultimately leads
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  her down this path to even greater isolation. But before
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  we go too far down that road, I kind of
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  want to circle back to her childhood for a second. Okay,
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  there was this little detail in the articles about a
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  teacher I think her name was Miss Brown, who wrote
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  Margaret a letter of praise, Yeah, just for being kind
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  and helpful in class. It might seem insignificant, but it
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  really struck me when I read that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see, you mean, like, amidst all these struggles.
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  This little letter it shows, you know, a bit of
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  who Margaret was. Yeah, you know, it's like a little
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  spark of her character shining through. Exactly did miss Brown?
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  Did she play a role later on or she did?
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  Speaker 2: And we'll circle back to that letter because it actually
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  becomes a pretty pivotal piece of evidence.
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  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fascinating little detail, and I think it
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  highlights just how important even those seemingly small human connections
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  can be.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm making a note of that now. Now, after
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  her father died, she lived with their mom briefly, but
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  the articles say their relationship was strained, almost as if
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  they both struggled to cope.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really difficult situation to even imagine, you know,
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  Margaret grieving the loss of her father, her mom maybe
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  maybe not equipped to handle everything, and this underlying feeling
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  that the system, you know, the support system just wasn't
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  there for them. And that's that's sort of how Margaret
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  ends up living with Karny and Jones at Seacroft. Okay,
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  and this this period, as as you'll see, is where
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  things start to take a bit of a darker.
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  Speaker 1: Turn Seacraft, That's where that's where they lived, right, So
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  this is this is around the time that she disappears.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Seacraft is crucial to the story and the articles
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  that kind of offer these little glimpses into that period.
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  For example, there's there's an account from Kearny where he
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  talks about how he tried to handle Margaret's what he called,
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  you know, self harming behavior. Okay, but and this is
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  important to remember this information. It came out during his trial, right, right,
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  So we have to kind of consider the source.
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  Speaker 1: We have to you know, you have to question everything exactly.
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  But but how can someone just vanish? I mean, were
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  there no friends, no neighbors asking questions like how?
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  Speaker 2: It is baffling? And that's where I think those systemic
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  cracks we talked about earlier, they really they rear their
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  ugly heads, you know what I mean. The last confirmed
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  sighting of Margaret was at a family gathering in December
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  of nineteen ninety nine. She was nineteen years old, and
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  then nothing.
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  Speaker 1: Nineteen years old, she just disappears. Did anyone, I mean,
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  did anyone notice?
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  Speaker 2: You would think so, right, But there's this one detail
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  from the articles that I found very unsettling. There's a
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  mention of a Christmas dinner that year at ERL Jones's
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  mother's house, and Jones's mother she has no memory of
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  Margaret being there, no sign of her in the photos either.
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  Speaker 1: Wait a minute, no one at Christmas dinner thought to
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  ask where Margaret was.
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  Speaker 2: It's strange.
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  Speaker 1: It's just strange. It just like she just vanished off
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  the face of the earth. Then everyone just I don't know,
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  accepted it. But someone had to have noticed she was gone,
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  right for seventeen years?
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  Speaker 2: Well you would think so, wouldn't you. I mean, that's
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  part of what makes this case so baffling. It wasn't
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  until twenty sixteen that something happened, just a seemingly, you know,
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  routine event, and it triggered a closer look into where
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  Margaret might be.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so what happened in twenty sixteen? What was the trigger?
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  Speaker 2: It was a benefits review for Margaret. They missed it.
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  And when I say, I mean, whoever was you know,
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  in charge of her affairs or receiving benefits on her behalf?
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  But think about it, someone somewhere had been receiving benefits
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  from Margaret all this time and no one, no one
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  questioned it.
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  Speaker 1: That's that's unbelievable.
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  Speaker 2: It is, and it's disturbing really. But when authorities finally
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  followed up on that missed appointment, where do they end
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  up Seacroft questioning Kenny and Jones.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so what's their explanation after all these years, where
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  do they say Margaret's been? Well?
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  Speaker 2: Get this, they start offering this, this string of really
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  outlandish explanations. Right, Margaret had run off to travel with
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  a traveler, became a gang master, yeah, a drug dealer.
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  Oh and get this, they even claimed that she was
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  living abroad using aliases.
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  Speaker 1: Hold on, a gang master? Are you serious? These explanations
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  they sound like they're straight out of a movie pot
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  not real life exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And this is where I think it's important to remember.
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  You know, individuals with learning difficulties, like Margaret, they're especially
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  vulnerable to manipulation, to exploitation. So these claims, especially when
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  you consider, you know, there's zero evidence to support them.
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  Investigators were they were immediately suspicious, red flags everywhere.
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  Speaker 1: So how did they poke holes in their story? How
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  did they figure out Karennie and Jones weren't telling the truth.
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  Speaker 2: Remember that letter, the letter of praise from Margaret's teacher,
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  Missus Brown, we talked about it earlier.
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  Speaker 1: The one where she was helping with registration.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that letter, that letter becomes a key piece of evidence.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So during the investigation Karene and Jones they produced these letters, right,
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  and they're allegedly written by Margaret. And these letters, they
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  were supposed to back up their story, you know, about
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  her living this new life somewhere else.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But Missus Brown, who you know, knew Margaret, was familiar
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  with her writing ability. She testifies, She says, point blank,
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  these letters, there's no way Margaret wrote these. She was
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  adamant that Margaret's writing simply wasn't that good.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. So this one detail, that letter, it unravels everything
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  it did.
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  Speaker 2: It was a major crack in their facade. And for
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  the police, armed with this new information and they're growing suspicion,
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  they start treating Margaret's disappearance very differently. Now they think
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  it's a potential homicide.
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  Speaker 1: So even though they don't have a body, they're thinking
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  murder exactly.
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  Speaker 2: The lack of any any credible explanation for where Margaret is.
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  You know, no one's seen her, no one's heard from her.
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  And then you add in these fabricated letters. It paints
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  a very different picture the investigation, which remember initially was
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  all about finding a missing person, now it morphs into
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  a murder inquiry.
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  Speaker 1: It's like, the more you learn about this case, the
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  more disturbing it gets. But if they suspect murder, how
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  can they prove that without a body?
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  Speaker 2: It's tricky legally speaking, but in Scotland you can actually
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  get a murder conviction without a body. The prosecution just
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  needs to present a really strong case. It has to
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  be based on circumstantial evidence, and they have to show
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  that you know, the accused was the last person to
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  see the victim alive, and that there is no other
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  plausible explanation for them being gone.
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  Speaker 1: So that's what happened in Karny and Jones's case.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, the trial, it takes place in twenty nineteen, and
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  the evidence, oh, it's overwhelming. You've got witnesses, you've got
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  these expert testimonies, and then there's just the sheer implausibility
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  of Karne and Jones's stories. Everything pointed to their guilt,
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  and the verdict guilty both Karennie and Jones. They're convicted
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  of Margaret's murder, sentenced to life in prison.
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  Speaker 1: Life in prison. But we still don't know what happened
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  to Margaret. Her family has no closure, no real answers.
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  Speaker 2: And that is one of the most haunting things about
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  this whole case. Even with the convictions, the mystery of
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  what actually happened to Margaret, it remains where is her body?
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  What truly happened to her in those final days, those
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  final weeks, We just don't know.
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  Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine not having those answers. It's like
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  a missing piece of the puzzle.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and I think that's what makes this case linger.
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  Even after you've heard all the details, it stays with you.
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  It reminds you how life is, how vulnerable people on
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  the margins can be, and how powerful unanswered questions really are.
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  Speaker 1: It makes you think about We've talked about the systemic failures,
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  the isolation, the fact that no one seemed to notice
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  what was happening, But what about Kearny and Jones. What
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  would motivate someone to do something like this?
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  Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question, isn't it, And it's
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  one that's still debated today. Some people think it was greed,
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  pure and simple, that they were taking advantage of Margaret
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  exploiting her for financial gain, right right. Others, well, they
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  point to, you know, the challenges, the complexities of caring
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  for someone with learning difficulties, and maybe just maybe they
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  got in over their heads, overwhelmed and resorted to these
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  desperate measures.
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  Speaker 1: It's hard to fathom so many possibilities. Yeah, but no
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  definitive answers exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And that's part of what I think makes this case
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  so fascinating, so tragic, and so incredibly unsettling.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, really, what does it say about society that
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  Margaret could just disappear unnoticed for seventeen years.
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  Speaker 2: It's a question that I think forces us all to
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  confront some uncomfortable truths about how we see the world,
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  our priorities. You know, how willing are we to see
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  those who might be struggling, suffering, maybe silently right there
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  around us. It's something to think about, it really is.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, we have this legal outcome,
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  you know, the guilty verdict, But on the other hand,
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  there's still this lingering sense of injustice, this feeling that
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  Margaret's story shouldn't have ended this way.
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  Speaker 2: You've hit the nail on the head. There's this this
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  feeling of unfinished business, this yearning for something more, And
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  in a lot of ways, that's Margaret Fleming's legacy. Her story.
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  It stays with you long after you heard it, and
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  it forces you to ask yourself, what can I do
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  to make sure this doesn't happen again?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really makes you stop and think about your
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  own life, you know, Yeah, your community, the people around
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  you every day. Could there be a Margaret right here
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  and we don't even realize it?
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  Speaker 2: Chilling thought, and it makes you think about social responsibility
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  on a much larger scale. We often hear these stories
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  and we think of them as isolated incidents, but Margaret's
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  story it highlights that vulnerability.
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  Speaker 1: It can be anywhere, right.
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  Speaker 2: It's in those gaps, so those cracks where you know,
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  maybe social services fall short, or where we make assumptions
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  about people because they're different, or or even just in
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  the silence, you know, when we don't speak up for
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  those who need a voice.
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  Speaker 1: And we've seen that in Margaret's story, haven't we The
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  missed opportunities, no one really paying attention to what was
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  going on. It's almost as if she was invisible.
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  Speaker 2: It's true, and that's why it's so important to keep
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  talking about these cases because they remind us to really
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  see people, to look beyond what's on the surface, you know,
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  to challenge our own biases, and to say something when
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  things just don't feel right.
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  Speaker 1: This whole deep dive, it's been really eye opening, to
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  be honest. You know, you read a news article and
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  it's one thing. But when we really unpack it like this,
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  talk about it, think about it all the time, details
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  you get it on all other level.
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  Speaker 2: I agree, and I think that's really the beauty of
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  these deep dives. You know, we take these fragmented pieces
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  of information and we put them back together and hopefully
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  we're helping people connect the dots and then create a
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  space to reflect and think critically at about these important issues.
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  Speaker 1: You've definitely given me and I'm sure our listeners a
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  lot to think about. What can we really take away
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  from Margaret's story? I mean, what can we learn from
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  all of this?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think at its heart, Margaret's story is a
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  call to action. It's a plea for us to be
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  more aware, to show more empathy, and to act. It's
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  a reminder that that we all have a role to
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  play in making society a place where vulnerability isn't met
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  with indifference, you know where it's met with support.
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  Speaker 1: That's a great way to put it. This has been
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  an incredibly powerful conversation. Thank you for walking us through everything,
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  all the twists and turns of Margaret's story. It's one
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  that will definitely stay with me.
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  Speaker 2: I think it will for a lot of us. And
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  if it's sparks of conversation or a moment of reflection,
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  maybe even just a small act of kindness from our listeners,
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  then Margaret's story will have served an even greater purpose.
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  Speaker 1: And on that note, we'll leave you with the Forgotten
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  Case of Margaret Fleming, a story that reminds us even
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  in the darkest of times, there's always hope, But we
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  have to be the ones to choose to act