Latest / The Action Catalyst / Update: Get Better at Anything, with Scott H. Young (Science, Education, Learning, Self-Improvement)

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Update: Get Better at Anything, with Scott H. Young (Science, Education, Learning, Self-Improvement) · The Action Catalyst

• 0:00
  Host: Scott Young is an author, programmer and entrepreneur
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  whose book Ultralearning was an international success. We hosted
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  Scott on the Action Catalyst back in 2019. But now he's back
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  with a new book, Get Better at Anything. Who doesn't want to do
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  that? Scott, welcome back. And before we dive into the new
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  book, catch us up on what's been going on in your life since your
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  last appearance.
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  Scott Young: Yeah, I mean, I became a father, I have two
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  kids. Now, I also spent a good chunk of the last five years
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  working on this new book. So reading hundreds of books,
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  hundreds of papers to make something new that I thought
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  would be helpful to people.
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  Host: So the new book, Get Better at Anything, is a deep
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  dive into the science of mastery. To start us off, let's
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  set the table and tell us exactly how you define mastery.
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  Scott Young: Well, so the thing I bring this up is that you know
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  why I was so interested in writing this book, is because we
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  all know the experience of things that you spent a lot of
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  time doing, and you're just you don't get that much better at
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  it, or things that you you tried it and you failed at it, you
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  weren't very good at it. And we also have experiences of like,
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  Oh, we're just clicked and you just got it, and you got really
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  good at it. And for me, you know, those highs and lows can
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  be so extreme like the oh my god, I found a new hobby, a new
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  sport, I got a new job, I'm being allotted by my peers
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  versus man, I suck at this. It can be such a big extreme
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  emotionally, to try to understand what are the
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  ingredients? What are the reasons why sometimes it works,
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  and sometimes it doesn't. So the book is not specifically about
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  like how to become Tiger Woods at your golf game, or how to
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  become a world concert violinist. It's to be better,
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  how do we figure out wherever you are, whether you are just at
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  the beginning? Or whether you are, you know, you've spent
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  decades doing something? How do we get better? And what are
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  those ingredients? And I think diving into the stories, the
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  research the size, the kind of like systems of learning, that
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  was really fun for me to try to bring that out so that these
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  principles can be available to people who want to use
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  Host: Is there anything that it's better to just be okay at
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  rather than great?
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  Scott Young: I mean, the truth is, is that most of the things
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  that we do, we don't really care to get better at it. Like I
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  know, if I went on YouTube right now and I looked at like videos
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  on how to tie your shoes, I could find like someone doing
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  some like crazy, not that I've never heard of before that like
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  doesn't come on time. But like for me, I don't need to do that,
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  like I'm fine tying my shoes 99.9999% of the things that you
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  do in your life, it's okay to do whatever you're doing, how you
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  do your laundry, how you walk to work, how you do everything. But
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  the thing is, is is just because that point 00 1% of the things
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  that we're doing looms so large in our life, you know, the skill
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  that we do at our job that determines whether or not we get
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  a promotion, like the hobby, whether or not we enjoy it
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  really depends on you know, do we feel like we're good at it?
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  Do we feel like we could get better at it? And so I wrote
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  this book for that point. 00 1%. So you're absolutely right.
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  There's tons of things where, you know, I'm not gonna worry
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  about getting better at this. But what are the things where I
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  want to get better at this? And you don't know how that's that's
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  what I wrote the book for.
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  Host: You mentioned the balance of joy and proficiency, kind of
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  a chicken and the egg thing. Which do you think leads into
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  the other?
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  Scott Young: I mean, you hit the nail on the head, like, I have a
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  whole chapter where I write about Albert benders theory of
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  self efficacy. And this was his idea that our motivation to do
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  things comes not just from like, would this be good for us, but
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  also, like, am I capable of taking the actions that are
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  necessary. And if you're not capable, the motivation might be
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  low, even if the outcome is very valuable. And this plays into
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  learning in a lot of ways. Because if we don't know that we
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  can do something, if we don't think that we can achieve
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  something, then our motivation to pursue it goes down
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  dramatically. And in some ways this is adaptive, I don't want
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  to say this is like a bug in our software, there's a million
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  things you could be doing, it often makes sense to do, the
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  things that come easier to you, this is just sort of natural
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  hardwiring, but where it can be dis advantageous, if there's
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  something you need to do, you can avoid doing it. And you
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  struggle in the beginning, then getting that motivation off the
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  ground can be really hard. And similarly, you can have fall
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  starts where you like, you start out motivated, you're doing
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  something but then you get stuck in the you get frustrated, and
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  you give it up halfway. And so I think it's about recognizing
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  this feedback loop of like being good at something and enjoying
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  it and understanding that that makes understanding learning so
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  important to understand that process. Because otherwise you
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  just get into these situations where like, Well, yeah, I used
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  to have these hobbies, but then I gave them up because
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  unconsciously at some point you felt stuck, or at some point,
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  you felt like you know what, I can't, I can't get better at
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  this or I can't improve at it. So in some ways, learning how to
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  learn is also about learning how to, you know, enjoy life about
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  learning how to enjoy your job, enjoy, your hobbies, things like
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  that.
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  Host: You mentioned earlier that while some people have to really
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  learn a skill for others, it just clicks. How do you account
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  for that?
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  Scott Young: So there's a couple factors. I mean, obviously I
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  don't want to deny it. There are people who have maybe some
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  intrinsic intelligence talent for particular domain. I don't
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  want to make the claim that like well Tiger Woods just because of
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  like something his dad did was the reason why he's like on The
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  Mike Douglas Show at two years old lobbing golf balls. I mean,
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  that's just that's just incredible, right? And people
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  tend to fixate on talent, but I kind of don't like talent, not
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  because, you know, it's inconvenient for my book, but
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  just because it's sort of a residual concept. It's sort of
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  just like, well, this is the stuff we can't explain. So
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  therefore, it's talent, right. And one of the things that we've
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  learned from psychology is, is the importance of background
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  knowledge and background experience. So I know there's
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  this study that I really liked, that was talking about reading
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  ability, and they were looking at people reading sort of a
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  description of a baseball game. And what they found is that the
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  amount that people learn from this context dependent way more
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  on whether they knew about baseball and whether they were
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  good readers. So I think what happens is that sometimes you
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  maybe have a little bit of ability, you have some extra
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  ability, and you gain some proficiency in a skill. And
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  maybe the environment also works out so that like, you know,
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  maybe you're not doing that great at it in the beginning,
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  but because let's say you're a kid, or because of the
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  environment you're in, you're not getting punished, you
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  develop some of this proficiency, then you move to a
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  different environment. And you're stacked up against people
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  who either have tons of proficiency, or who've never
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  taken it before. And depending on where you're putting that
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  group, you can feel like Oh, I'm actually I have a lot of
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  aptitude for this. And so you keep going on and you get better
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  at it. And other people don't, you know, my, my favorite, my
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  favorite story about this is that a friend is a woman who got
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  a master's in civil engineering. So this is like, you know, she's
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  doing like, advanced calculus and this kind of stuff. And she
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  told me with a straight face, you know what I did this intro
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  programming class, and I was just, I wasn't smart enough to
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  do it. And it was like, How could you say that? Well, the
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  reason she said that is because the other kids in the class were
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  populated with people who like picked up programming in high
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  school. So she's going in there with zero, they're going there
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  with 10. And she just feels like, oh, I can't do this. And
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  so again, to me, I think like going back to principles, going
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  back to what are the factors that motivate learning, they
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  don't transform you as a golfer into Tiger Woods, but they give
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  you a map, they give you a way to make progress and making
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  progress, I think, ultimately, is what it's about.
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  Host: In the book, you list out three main steps in the roadmap
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  to learning. Could you share those with us?
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  Scott Young: Yeah, so the book is organized around these three
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  sections, these three big ideas that influence learning. The
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  first is See. This is the idea that actually most of what we
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  know how to do comes from other people. So things that make it
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  easier to learn from other people will accelerate our
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  progress. Things that make it harder to learn from other
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  people will slow our progress. And you can see this across many
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  domains. Like, you know, the example I used to open the book
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  is as Tetris proficiency, whereas like, the game was super
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  popular, and people are obsessed with it. But actually, if you
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  look at their scores and their rankings, they're not actually
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  that good. The kids that like 13 year old kids who play Tetris
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  today, who are like obsessed with the game are much better.
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  And the reason why, because the internet created the ability to
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  like, every single technique and strategy is now learnable, and
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  accessible and instant, you can watch replays of the best
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  players playing the game. Whereas before, it was just
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  like, you know, your big brother's friend who could live
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  you like, oh, yeah, you got to do this or something to get you
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  to the game. And I mean, Tetris is a bit of a trivial example.
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  But the principle is universal, this ability to learn from
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  others. And whether or not it's easy or not, makes a huge
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  difference. The second is do obviously, to get good at
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  something requires a lot of practice. But there's a lot of
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  nuance to this, the kind of practice matters to our brains,
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  our effort saving machines, we are hardwired to try to avoid
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  expending effort. And expending effort is often what's required
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  for learning. And so often, what we get involved with practice is
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  trying to overcome this natural tendency to not use effort. So
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  an example I talked about is like Retrieval Practices, a big
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  idea. This is the idea that we remember things better when we
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  try to remember them than when we see them right in front of
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  us. So if you already have encountered some information,
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  and you try to recall it, that act of effort is going to make
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  you remember it more, because it's as if the brain saying oh,
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  well, the paper with the answers in front of me, so I don't
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  actually need to store this in my head. And so this do
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  component I also have break this down into four like Maxim's that
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  are covering some of these ideas. But fine tuning the
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  practice is super important. And then the last one, of course, is
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  getting feedback corrections for our actions, not just a teacher
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  saying do this, write this do this this way. But also just
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  even just interacting with the situation we're having, like
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  realistic practice is so important for gaining
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  proficiency and something that's often missing when we're
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  starting out learning skills.
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  Host: Are those three weighted at all? Or is there a resistance
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  to one over the others? I can see potential resistance to
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  feedback, for example.
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  Scott Young: So it gets it depends on the feedback we're
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  talking about too. Because in some ways, like if you are
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  skiing down a mountain, the most important feedback is the one
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  coming from the hill through your feet. Like if you didn't
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  have that you couldn't learn to ski. So I take feedback in this
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  kind of broader sense than just like, you know, the teacher's
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  red pen. But but the thing I would say the thing I would say
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  about that is that these three ingredients it's like if you're
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  making a cake you need like flour, sugar and like an egg or
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  something. If you're missing one is not going to taste good. And
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  so I think part of the problem is recognizing when one of these
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  elements is deficient, and it's going to really depend on your
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  situation, you know, we were talking about Tetris, this sort
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  of being able to see other players was the major
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  breakthrough, players playing the game, they got tons of
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  practice, when you play the game, you know, whether you win
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  or lose, you get quick, immediate feedback, that wasn't
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  the problem. The problem was that techniques which were
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  rather subtle, which were not obvious and took a while to
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  develop, someone could develop it, but then it would stay with
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  that person, it wouldn't get transmitted. And this is true in
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  many domains that we struggled to learn because the best
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  practices, the way to do it are stuck inside the heads of
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  experts, and we have difficulty getting it out. But for other
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  skills is not like that. Like if you want to learn, I don't know,
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  if you want to learn basic math or something like that. There
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  are like 1000s of books. And like every single thing, giving
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  you how to do it, the difficulty is often getting practice
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  getting feedback, figuring out well, what are the concepts that
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  I have that are mistaken, getting the right level of
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  practice, that's the difficulty. So in my mind, you know, I kind
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  of present the book, not so much of a, it's more like, you know,
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  if you had a recipe, you're like, Oh, this is what's
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  missing, or this is what is happening, and it's going to
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  vary from person to person. But laying out all the ingredients
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  is very important. I was really grateful to be able to tie in
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  Joseph Henrich. He's a Harvard anthropologist and economist,
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  his work on cultural evolution. And he makes the argument kind
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  of somewhat provocatively that like, there is some experimental
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  evidence that shows that some of the great apes, you know, like
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  chimps and orangutangs, when you compare them to small children,
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  and admittedly, we're not talking about adults, partly
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  because just all adults are in cultured and socialized, it's
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  impossible to remove that. But when you're dealing with very
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  young children, they actually do better than those children at
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  some kinds of raw problem solving tasks. I mean, one of my
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  favorite demonstrations, as he showed this video, it's a chimp
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  doing some kind of memory task, there's the numbers, one to 10
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  on a grid, and they like blink on and then they disappear
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  immediately. And it's like, incredible, the chimp knows to
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  like, go like one in order of all these 10. And it just goes
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  like, click, click, click, click, click, click, and it gets
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  it right, like it's practiced. But at the same time, I mean,
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  this is a chimp, this is not even a person, and he's doing it
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  so well. And he uses these examples to sort of challenge
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  the idea that like, what it is that makes humans so great is
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  that we're just so much smarter than every other animal. And he
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  argues, that's not what it is. It's that we are really good
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  social learners. Chimps, despite their problems on the ability
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  are really bad at learning from other people. And so I just I
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  love this because it's, it's so ironic, we all we like to say
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  monkey see monkey do. But it's not, it's because the monkeys
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  can't see and do is because they can't do that, that that really,
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  it makes a massive Gulf in our proficiency. If we didn't have
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  all our accumulated culture, if we didn't have this imitative
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  ability to like, learn from the examples of other people. I
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  mean, people are really inept, like he gives us stories and
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  just like, you know, explorers getting lost in unfamiliar
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  lands, and just doing things that to the native inhabitants,
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  it just seems so stupid because of this. And so I think, you
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  know, this is a real human strength, and how we're able to
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  tweak that makes a big difference.
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  Host: And these principles don't just apply to hard skills, you
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  say they work in the artistic realm as well. And were even on
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  display in the Renaissance.
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  Scott Young: Part of the problem with with talking about the
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  scientific research is that a lot of the cognitive psychology
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  is really grounded in like math and this kind of stuff. So like
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  a lot of the original research is done with this. And it's just
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  like, I can't do another chapter. This has math. And so
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  this was a little bit my own kind of dovetailing because you
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  see a lot of the same themes in different subjects. And so one
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  of the themes in mathematics research was this kind of
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  tension between showing people how to do it and letting them
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  solve the problems themselves. And I found John swelters work
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  to be really instructive here is that he's kind of created this
• 13:46
  edifice of research called Cognitive Load Theory, which
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  tries to explain when it's more beneficial to solve a problem
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  yourself. And when it's more beneficial to see a
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  demonstration. And he kind of proposes somewhat counter
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  intuitively, that it is possible to solve problems without
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  learning how to solve them, it's probably possible to do
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  something to solve the problem and not infer like, well, this
• 14:05
  is the procedure for solving problems of this type. And in
• 14:08
  his theory, there is that part of the issue is that when you're
• 14:11
  solving a problem, it's very mentally demanding. And that
• 14:14
  mental bandwidth is devoted to solving the problem and not
• 14:17
  recognizing what the pattern is for solving it. And there is
• 14:20
  something analogous here in artistic training because during
• 14:23
  the Renaissance, you know, Leonardo da Vinci bought a
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  jellybean guys, yo, Titian, all these, like great painters
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  worked under an apprenticeship system. And this wasn't like
• 14:31
  some kind of design that like, Oh, this is the right way to
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  teach. It was just because this was an artisanal class of people
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  who were like they weren't seen as artists, they're seen as
• 14:40
  like, laborers, right? And Leonardo was actually one of the
• 14:43
  first people to sort of change this perception. But the idea
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  was that you'd go to this studio, and they'd get you like,
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  Okay, we're going to show you how to paint leaves and then
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  you're going to paint leaves and you're going to work on that
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  work on it. Now you're gonna paint this face, you're gonna
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  work on this and the This idea of this like progression from
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  simple elements, copying someone and then working on it. And then
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  as you get better and better, you're like developing your own
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  ability, and you're developing these sort of more sophisticated
• 15:09
  creative talents. This very much mirrors a lot of John's father's
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  work with mathematics and learning. And I also think is
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  very interesting that in a similar way, in artistic
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  movements have kind of, you know, the pendulum swings back
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  and forth. But for a long time, there was a swing away from
• 15:23
  this, there was this idea of like, you know, teaching kids
• 15:26
  how to draw perspective, teaching them these basic
• 15:28
  principles, getting them to go through drills, getting them to
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  work with like black and white before color, all these ideas
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  that were really foundational, not only to their Renaissance,
• 15:37
  but the whole Academy system that produced just like
• 15:40
  fantastic artists, was kind of seen as like this is dated, we
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  want people to be creative, and use their creativity, and just
• 15:46
  get them to use ideas. And in some ways that really kind of
• 15:49
  stunted a lot of artists development, you have experts,
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  you have people who had a lot of proficiency that managed to
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  persevere nonetheless, but I thought that was very
• 15:57
  fascinating that these, these principles that you know, are in
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  such wildly different domains still apply. And the other thing
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  too, which creates a tension, and I just had a conversation
• 16:06
  with someone else about this. But as you get better in a
• 16:08
  skill, the problem solved becomes more important, because
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  you are able to kind of decompose the skill into
• 16:14
  different chunks in your mind, so that he can do it with less
• 16:16
  bandwidth. So just to use an example, like think about the
• 16:19
  first time you drove a car, like how much you had to think about
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  all the little things you had to do. And now I mean, you can
• 16:25
  listen to a podcast, maybe you're listening to this one
• 16:28
  right now about driving a car, and you've just missed your turn
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  off or whatever, because it's so obvious to you. And this
• 16:34
  tendency for skills to be extremely effortful to go to
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  almost automatic is universal across skills. But what it means
• 16:40
  is that what works best for learning is also going to change
• 16:42
  depending on where you're at, in the beginning, seeing examples
• 16:45
  are important because solving the problem is so taxing that
• 16:48
  you might not realize, oh, all the problems are solved this
• 16:51
  way. You know, because you're just kind of like, you know,
• 16:54
  fidgeting with things to try to figure them out. And so that's
• 16:57
  why the examples and instructions are so beneficial
• 17:00
  at that stage. But as you get later on, and you know those
• 17:02
  things, and you have them kind of in the back of your head,
• 17:05
  then the practice the problem solving works on the other end,
• 17:08
  like we were talking about, about this retrieval, like if
• 17:11
  you have the pattern in memory, and you can recall it, it
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  strengthens that memory more and adapts into more of that
• 17:17
  situation. And so this tension often comes up because when you
• 17:20
  have someone teaching a class, when you have someone telling
• 17:22
  you well, what's the right way to learn something, they're
• 17:25
  usually an expert, they're usually on that end where like
• 17:28
  they benefit more from experimentation, from practice,
• 17:31
  from problem solving from like, increasing the difficulty. And
• 17:34
  that's not necessarily what's beneficial at the early stage.
• 17:37
  So I find this sort of framework, his way of thinking
• 17:39
  about it very valuable, because it's not just about what's the
• 17:42
  right learning technique, but it's like, when does that
• 17:45
  technique matter? When is it helpful for you.
• 17:48
  Host: So what's something that you personally have learned
• 17:50
  lately that you've applied these steps to yourself?
• 17:53
  Scott Young: Part of the reason my interest in this subject is
• 17:56
  because I just have such a like a laundry list of things that I
• 17:59
  want to learn. So very selfishly, I'm like, trying to
• 18:01
  learn it so that I can understand how those work. So I
• 18:04
  mean, something that I've been doing recently is painting, I
• 18:07
  really like painting, particularly I've been doing
• 18:10
  like watercolor painting, which if you're not involved in this
• 18:13
  kind of sphere, you don't know anything about it. One of the
• 18:15
  real challenges of it is that unlike oil painting, where you
• 18:18
  can kind of paint over, so if you make a mistake, you can
• 18:21
  paint over it. watercolors, like is transparent. So once you put
• 18:24
  something down, and it dries, you're kind of stuck with it.
• 18:27
  And so it does create challenges, because you're a
• 18:30
  little more technically constrained, like with oil
• 18:32
  paint, you can kind of almost do anything you want, if you just
• 18:35
  like are painstaking, whereas watercolor, you know, it's
• 18:38
  drying time and this kind of thing. And so these principles
• 18:41
  that I've been sort of looking at have definitely played a
• 18:44
  factor because it's been looking at like, Well, why am I getting
• 18:47
  stuck here? Like when I'm having difficulties and it's like,
• 18:50
  well, is the issue that I need more instruction? Or is the
• 18:53
  issue that you know, I'm trying to do practice but the practice
• 18:56
  is too complicated and I need to make it simpler and I don't know
• 18:59
  I just, to me a lot of these research and all these things
• 19:02
  have been feeding back into my own practice. Maybe even when I
• 19:05
  get a chance to finish the promotion for this book, I might
• 19:08
  even do a project specifically about that about applying these
• 19:11
  techniques to this this hobby of mine I mean the thing that you
• 19:14
  realize when you're doing research on this topic is like
• 19:16
  oh my god, this is such a big topic. There's so many things
• 19:19
  you could talk about like to call it down to a book, like I
• 19:22
  had, I have I think the bibliography has like 500
• 19:25
  references like to like get it down to like okay, this is
• 19:27
  manageable. This is understandable for person like
• 19:30
  that was the real challenge of this book was not like how do I
• 19:33
  fill another chapter but like, what do I cut and so so this
• 19:36
  book, I hope people will find it valuable I hope they'll enjoy
• 19:39
  the journey through stories that I just to me I had to write them
• 19:42
  because I done so fascinating when I first encountered them
• 19:45
  and really just you know, even if they just enjoy the ride,
• 19:48
  maybe it'll give them some tips for how they can improve the
• 19:51
  skill they care about. So I mean, the book is available
• 19:53
  Amazon audible wherever you get your books and they can also
• 19:56
  come check out my website. It's got hm.com If they want to read
• 19:59
  some more essays are find out more about the understanding the
• 20:02
  art and science of learning.
• 20:04
  Host: Scott thanks for joining us today.
• 20:06
  Scott Young: Thank you so much, it's been great being here, thanks.