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Hamster Book Club - Alien Bodies · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:05
Welcome back to the Hamster Book Club.
0:09
My name is Joe Ford and I'm here today with three fabulous
0:13
gentlemen. I don't know.
0:15
This is always gentlemen. I've not had a girl on this yet,
0:17
you know. But the next episode I do.
0:20
We're international today. I am going to throw this out
0:25
first to Andrew to introduce himself and to talk about the
0:30
1st Doctor Who book that he read.
0:32
Off you go, Andrew. Hello.
0:34
So, yeah, I'm Andrew. I also run Dr. Who.
0:37
Cover Story on Twitter. So my first Doctor Who book, I
0:43
actually couldn't remember exactly which one it was, so
0:46
I've cheated a little bit and I've got two.
0:48
So my journey into Doctor Who was watching the planet of the
0:53
Daleks repeat in 1993. And then for Christmas I got the
0:59
VHS of Daleks the early years. Kind of an odd choice, but I
1:05
guess it was the only one in the shop that had a Dalek on the
1:07
cover. So that kind of cemented my love
1:12
of Doctor Who. And because it was so like
1:14
behind the scenesy, like I already had like missing
1:16
episodes. Terry Nation.
1:19
Like, yeah, I was. I was in at the deep end.
1:24
And so, yeah, from there I must have begged my parents for these
1:30
in Waterstones. So this is.
1:32
Evil of the Daleks novelization, which it was quite a hefty tone,
1:38
and the reprint of Dalek Invasion of Earth, I think.
1:42
Because, you know, I wanted to kind of complete the stories
1:46
that I'd seen snippets of on that video.
1:49
And I remember my mom read these to me because I was only 7.
1:52
And they're quite. Yeah.
1:53
Particularly Evil of the Daleks is very, yeah, very lengthy.
1:57
So yeah, would you do me a massive favor, please?
2:00
Would you just read out the first sentence of The Dark
2:03
Invasion of Earth? Because I still think it's one
2:05
of the best introductions to a book I've ever read.
2:08
So chapter one returned to terror through the ruin of the
2:13
city stalked, the ruin of a man. His clades were tatty and grimy,
2:17
his skin blotched and diseased over wasted flesh on his head
2:21
with a gleaming metal helmet. He walked with a stiff, jerky
2:25
movements of a robot. Which was exactly what he had
2:28
become. That is gold, isn't it?
2:32
It is. So yeah, I think these these two
2:36
helped me continue to be hooked. Did you go onto, did you get all
2:41
the books? Did you buy all the targets, all
2:43
the virgins, all the BBC? I actually do not have all of
2:47
the targets, despite like having a very Doctor Who book and arts.
2:52
Focused account. No, I don't have all the
2:54
targets. I've just kind of picked up
2:56
targets here and there, you know, from secondhand shots and
3:00
stuff ever since being a kid. But when I was little, I wanted
3:04
the videos I didn't like. I got the book if I didn't have
3:07
the video, but if I had the video, I didn't really want the
3:09
book. But then as I got older and kind
3:12
of became a teenager, I thought following the The New Adventures
3:16
and the BBC books So I've read. Probably about half of the BBC
3:23
books I kind of started, I can't remember which one I started on.
3:26
Like I sort of, I think around the Earth arcs of Angie and Fitz
3:29
era and read all of them onwards and then kind of filled in the
3:33
gaps and then new adventures, like kind of was obsessed with
3:37
finding them in in second hand bookshops.
3:39
So I've got all of them apart from the the Big three, and I've
3:43
read, probably only read about 1/4 of them because, you know,
3:46
there's a lot of Doctor Who books out of there.
3:49
I've got a fabulous secondhand book shop in town called
3:52
Camilla's. It's four floors and it's
3:54
literally floor to ceiling. They're just piled everywhere,
3:57
books everywhere. It's like a labyrinth.
3:59
And when I first moved here, they had a box of Virgin New
4:03
Adventures and Missing Adventures in there.
4:06
And I just bought a load of them.
4:08
But it got me into this sort of weird expectation that every
4:10
time I go into a secondhand bookshop now, and I've never
4:13
found a one since, I still go in looking.
4:17
For that I can scan the shelves in like 20 seconds looking for
4:21
spines. And I actually know Camilla's
4:24
Bookshop, and it is like the most stressful bookshop in the
4:27
world. Because it's just like there's
4:30
there's so much in there that you can't get to because there's
4:32
just piles and piles of books and I just feel like there's
4:35
treasure in there that I just can't find.
4:37
I live sometimes like because all the science fiction ones are
4:40
on the stairs, so I sort of pull them out.
4:42
But it's literally, it's so precarious.
4:44
It's like 1 false move and you'll never know the time
4:46
again. Well, what about?
4:49
You. I actually I found a really.
4:52
It really to me exciting book in Camilla's once and it was like
4:56
downstairs in the bit where they have like pamphlets and stuff.
4:59
And it was like a little pamphlet book by John Cura who
5:04
did the Telesnaps and it's like his, it's like his books to like
5:08
How to fix his book about how to fix your TV.
5:12
And so it's all about like picture faults on television.
5:16
Programs and how to fix them. But it's all like his little
5:18
telesnaps of like different things.
5:20
And I was like John Cora, I know that name.
5:23
I'm buying that. You're right.
5:24
You know there's gold in there. One day we'll both go in there.
5:27
We'll just tack it. Our flora is on Mark Cochran
5:32
from the Olden Place podcast. Hello.
5:35
Hi. Your turn.
5:37
OK. Well, I'm a bit older than some
5:41
of our guests here, so I started watching in 1979.
5:46
Season 17 when I was 6 and the Target books were how I got into
5:52
Doctor Who books because it was a way of discovering some of
5:56
these old stories that we never really got to see when I was a
5:59
kid. So the first one I remember
6:01
reading, and I still have it here in my grubby mitts, is a
6:04
Doctor Who and the Cyberman by Jerry Davis.
6:08
Yeah. So yeah, this I must have read.
6:11
I don't know how many times I. Quite enjoyed reading at that
6:17
time, but we didn't really have a massive collection of books.
6:20
My mum used to work at the local supermarket in a cash office and
6:24
they used to have one of those spinny book things down by the
6:29
the tills and they'd always have Doctor Who target novels there.
6:33
So I'd occasionally, you know, do the older and nagging child
6:38
thing and get them to spend £0.50 on a target book.
6:41
So I've got a few, but not masses of them.
6:44
And because of just general changing of priority, shall we
6:52
say, when I got to my teenage years I did read the first of
6:56
the The Virgin New Adventures and because it was a sort of pre
7:02
Internet time, it sometimes it could be quite hard to track
7:05
down the books, especially if they're like a series.
7:09
So you'd find maybe the first couple, but you.
7:11
The 3rd or 4th would be really elusive to try and get so my
7:16
interest kind of waned after that in terms of the the
7:20
fiction. But one of my greatest memories
7:23
of Doctor Who books was the getting the Peter Haining Key to
7:26
Time Book One Christmas, which is like the follow up to
7:32
celebration and that was this beautiful hardback with amazing
7:36
photos and all the sort of behind the scenes stuff.
7:40
Which I'm sure probably a lot of.
7:41
It's been debunked now because people have said, Oh well,
7:43
that's not right, that's not right.
7:44
But it was just, it was amazing because at that time we didn't
7:47
really get to see much of the old stuff.
7:49
So seeing all these photos from stories that come years and
7:53
years before was really exciting.
7:56
I remember getting you remember the house timer walkers like the
7:59
Companions book and the. Oh yeah, yeah.
8:02
And the 80s and the photographs from that was so enticing.
8:06
The stuff I've never seen before.
8:08
Amazing. And from across the ponds.
8:11
Then we've got Luke. Say hello Luke, introduce
8:15
yourself. And what was your first Doctor
8:16
Who book? Hello Luke, that's me and it's
8:22
the Web of Fear. I have a really beat up copy of
8:25
it. It's the one that my dad got
8:28
from his work. He worked at a paper factory.
8:30
For some reason this was lying around and he just took it home
8:33
and he gave it to me. So that was not only my first
8:36
Doctor Who book, that was my first experience with Doctor
8:39
Who, period. So I was very happy when they
8:41
found most of it, like 10 years ago.
8:44
So yeah, I kind of started with Doctor Who books and then it led
8:48
to trips to the video store where I just rented out any
8:54
episodes of Doctor Who that they they had.
8:57
And then I was easy to buy for every Christmas or birthday, a
9:01
Doctor Who book or. One of those really expensive
9:05
VHS tapes which were like $30 Australian.
9:12
Is it kind of give the DVDs away now?
9:13
True now. Are you still getting Doctor Who
9:15
presents every Christmas now? Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
9:19
Rest of you, you remember when the news is about right and the
9:24
merchandise went crazy. A1 year loads of toys and bubble
9:28
baths and all that allow it. Guys just enough anything but
9:31
not to who please. And so did you go on then did
9:38
you buy the lot? Do you have the lot?
9:41
I don't have any targets because like Andrew, if I could watch
9:45
it. I didn't really feel like I
9:48
needed the book for it, but I had a lot of the new adventures.
9:50
I had the whole set of the new and missing adventures at one
9:54
point and then moved house and had to sell a lot of them.
9:57
And I've got a nice little collection back again, just like
10:01
old favorites and things like that.
10:03
Coincidence, that's old favorite, Alien Body said.
10:07
But yeah, so my one of my early reading experiences, Doctor Who,
10:12
ended up being. Our school had like this book
10:17
club. Like they'll hand out pamphlets
10:19
and then then it. Then you go through a catalog
10:22
and you choose a book that you might want to buy for some
10:25
reason. One of the books on offer was
10:27
Cats Cradle Times Crucible, and I was barely maybe 10 or 11 or
10:31
something like that at the time. So I bought that and I didn't
10:35
understand bloody word of it. Single page I still don't.
10:40
I don't. Think you're alone.
10:52
Well, thank you very much gentlemen.
10:54
The book we are here today to talk about is Alien Bodies by
10:58
Lawrence Miles, a very well known, slightly controversial,
11:05
but I'd say very popular author in Doctor Who terms.
11:10
And this is a pretty big book. I'm not even sure where to start
11:15
with this. It's just so jam packed with
11:20
ideas like yeah, there's like each chapter could be a a full
11:25
novel in itself. There's just so much packed into
11:27
it, so dense. Can I can I ask you each
11:30
festival sort of like your initial opinion of alien bodies?
11:33
And can you choose like one of the ideas that you love in it?
11:39
Let's start with Mark. Okay.
11:43
Well, this is my first 8th Doctor novel.
11:45
I've not read any of them before, so this was a completely
11:48
new experience for me. I'm not entirely sure what I was
11:51
expecting, but I don't think it was this.
11:55
But it was a pleasant surprise, I think because we had a little
11:58
chat going when we were sort of organizing this.
12:01
And I think, paraphrasing from memory, I said something along
12:03
the lines of. This is absolutely banana pans
12:07
crazy, and I'm absolutely here for it.
12:11
Yeah, as you were saying just now, it's it's chock full of
12:16
ideas. So yes, it's it's a first for
12:23
me, I think probably my favorite.
12:26
What this book seems to do really well is have lots of
12:29
really memorable. Scenes and situations.
12:34
So there's a lot of flashbacks. And going back to earlier parts
12:38
of the story that we weren't aware of initially, the one that
12:41
really resonated for me is the scene where they walk into the
12:45
abandoned House of Commons and you've got the the guy sat in
12:51
the speaker's chair. And that scene was just
12:55
incredible, Absolutely incredible.
12:57
So yeah, that was that would be my sort of most memorable moment
13:00
from the book. I think that's that's post Dalek
13:03
inversion of Earth, isn't it? Yes.
13:05
Yeah, it's quite keen to grittier picture of, yeah, what
13:10
the Daleks did than the actual story.
13:12
Yeah, it's like a bit of a mash up, isn't it?
13:14
Because you've got a lot of the, you like to drop it in a lot of
13:16
the continuity from what we'd had in the series.
13:20
But it's a totally different take on or certainly what my
13:25
understanding of Doctor Who novels would be.
13:28
I'm not sure this is necessarily.
13:31
I don't know if this would work if they made it a TV version.
13:36
I'm sure we'll have a discussion about that later.
13:38
The structure of it is so, isn't it is that it's actually a
13:41
simple idea of the auction with all the characters coming
13:44
together, but it opens out because of all the backstories
13:47
we get all those chapters elving into the past of the characters.
13:50
I suppose you could do it as a flashback.
13:52
Well, I don't know if that would really work on television.
13:55
I thought it's going to happen. So how about you, Luke?
14:01
I thought, right, this is nicely arranged into chapters with mini
14:06
chapters with the characters stories.
14:09
I've got about a month to read this.
14:11
I can do that. I can read a chapter a day and
14:14
then slowly the other book I was reading just was put on the
14:18
shelf. Ignore that and I've I've
14:21
finished this book weeks ago. Read it just like I couldn't
14:25
stop reading it it it was funny. Was horrifying in some bits,
14:30
like with the embryos and things like that.
14:31
And it just had some really fun ideas like using using the
14:38
weapons and stuff to change the dimensions of things to kind of
14:41
mess with the people. That reminded me of Mill House
14:43
in the in The Simpsons. He's in the tree house and
14:46
there's five corners of the tree house like that.
14:50
So just kind of messing with the time and the dimensions of the
14:53
buildings and structures just to make people fall into the water
14:55
and things like that. And then you've got that weird
14:58
idea of the security system, with the cat's dung turning into
15:07
IO data, which then turns into video footage.
15:10
I'm like, all right, that's flashy, that's stylish.
15:12
I guess video cameras would have worked better, but one way of
15:16
doing it is Andrew. Yeah, so this was the second
15:22
time that I've read Alien Bodies.
15:25
But it was only a few years ago, I think, that I read it for the
15:28
first time. So yeah, fairly quick succession
15:30
after first read. And yeah, I suppose it's one of
15:34
those books that reading most of the 8th Doctor adventures, it's
15:39
kind of one that cast like a long shadow.
15:41
So even though I hadn't read it, I kind of was aware of all the
15:45
kind of plot elements I used to actually go on.
15:47
There was, I think it's still there, a website called Doctor
15:49
Who Reference Guide. So for books that I hadn't read,
15:52
I'd read the synopsis on there which were really detailed.
15:56
So that was probably my first experience of reading this.
15:59
So yeah I kind of, I kind of, I think someone said earlier like
16:04
you'd read the books that you could get.
16:05
So you know pre Internet days when you're just going to the
16:09
book shops like clearly they just didn't have this one.
16:11
So I'd be reading kind of later books in the series and filling
16:14
in the gaps. But yeah, I love it like it's
16:17
such a I think there's. There's lots to say about it,
16:23
but overall it's a really well written book.
16:25
It's look funnier than you'd expect it to be and does lots of
16:30
interesting things with kind of narrative perspective and things
16:34
like that. And my favorite kind of concept
16:38
in it is probably the most obvious one, which is Faction
16:41
Paradox, because I think they're just such a great concept, and
16:45
also for a book, the fact that they're really visual.
16:49
Really helps me because you've got just got such a kind of
16:53
stark image of what they look like that these kind of
16:55
Victorian Goths with these skull masks that they that they wear
17:01
and they're this kind of inverted version of the Time
17:03
Lords where they're they revel in paradox rather than trying to
17:08
maintain kind of continuity in the universe.
17:11
So yeah, a kind of dark mirror of the Time Lords, which is
17:14
really interesting. Yeah.
17:17
And it was obviously spun off into them, into their own thing.
17:21
There's also a concept in the book that I really don't like,
17:24
but maybe we'll get onto that later.
17:26
Did you ask us what we did? Like stuff that people had issue
17:29
with like this came along at just the right time.
17:32
I think because The Virgin lost their license.
17:35
The BBC came as a raw We're going to start doing books.
17:38
They opened up with The 8 Doctors by Terence Dicks, which
17:41
is the safest pair of hands and the safest Doctor Who novel you
17:43
were ever. And you've got like Vampire
17:47
Sciences in that opening Salva. But they're pretty much there's
17:50
a Zygon story, there's a Joe Grant story, It's pretty safe.
17:54
And I think this one comes along and just smacks you around the
17:57
face and goes. Actually, the 8th Doctor books
17:59
are going to be taking risks. They are going to innovate and
18:03
do exciting things. My favorite concept in this was
18:07
how he revolutionized the Crotons, where there's a whole
18:13
chapter from the point of view of E Cobalt where I was, I was
18:17
at a train station laughing my hair in the waiting room there's
18:22
a sequence where this the Crotons heading off to see the
18:25
high brains and he just describes him as yeah, and he
18:28
walks the whole way and it's a Croton thing you wouldn't
18:31
understand. And I just saw this terribly
18:33
come in for three days to get to this thing.
18:39
But when the when the moment came and he wanted to make them
18:42
scary by the end of that chapter had a Time Lord being tortured,
18:45
didn't it? Someone gets skewered later on.
18:48
They're bloody terror. They take on.
18:50
The Daleks don't. They.
18:52
Yeah. Completely kill them off, yeah.
18:55
Yeah, yeah, I I loved how kind of deliberately vague the book
18:58
is about the Daleks, and it's like it might be a Dalek ship.
19:01
I mean, you, your lawyers can't prove it's a Dalek ship because
19:05
we've got it to great lengths to say that it's maybe not.
19:08
So Terry Nation, we paid you for a lot.
19:10
So yeah, it might be the Daleks. It's worse later in the range.
19:15
Do you remember when like way forward after the earth hog
19:19
where you have these sequences of like a great sphere in the
19:22
sky And the idea was it was a Dalek ice storm looking over
19:25
things And then the end of that run of books And then Terry
19:30
Nations lawyers went, no, no, no, you're not using those and
19:33
I'll bugger it. So that that just went
19:35
completely well. Let's spin the conversation
19:40
around to the 8th Doctor and Sam Jones, one of the most popular
19:47
Doctor Who on record. I'm going to go back to you
19:53
Andrew now and and just ask you like how did you find the
19:56
characterization of both of them in this?
20:00
Yeah, the Doctor is an interesting one because I think
20:03
in this early part of the books and they were really trying to
20:07
define him, in contrast to the 7th Doctor, which can sometimes
20:11
be a bit frustrating because it's kind of like I want him to
20:13
stop being a reaction to something and just be him.
20:17
But I think like vampire science has a lot of that as well.
20:21
And to be honest, like the books just had that a lot for a long
20:25
time. Because I guess because there'd
20:26
only been 1TV movie and there was so many new adventures which
20:29
had defined the character of the 7th Doctor that yeah, they were
20:32
maybe unsure of what to do with with this new version of the
20:35
Doctor. But what's interesting in Alien
20:38
Bodies is that you actually get the Doctor's viewpoint character
20:41
sometimes, which I think they didn't do in the New Adventures.
20:46
And it was like part of the writer's guidelines that you
20:48
couldn't see things for the through the Doctor's eyes
20:50
because he was meant to be this kind of distant, manipulative
20:54
character. So yeah, I guess that kind of
20:57
brings out the kind of humanity of the character and the fact
21:00
that he's not this art manipulator.
21:03
But then having said that, he in this book, he's defining himself
21:07
in contrast to that, but then becomes completely manipulative,
21:11
plays lots of very clever games with the way that he traps the
21:17
shift and then defeats the selectis is all a very well, a
21:21
very clever, well orchestrated plan, but I guess was more in
21:26
the moment than maybe the 7th Doctor would have been.
21:30
And I'm maybe going to surprise you here, but I actually really
21:32
like Sam Jones somebody. Somebody had to, you know, I
21:39
mean, I say that I like Sam Jones.
21:40
I don't always like the way she's written.
21:43
I think it was a good move for these books to have a companion
21:47
who's much more relatable than the new adventures lot, who were
21:50
all kind of space soldier characters, who were all quite
21:57
violent and futuristic and hard to relate to.
22:01
And you didn't always get that kind of perspective of somebody
22:04
who would just make a cultural reference to ABBA or something
22:08
like that. So it was quite kind of
22:10
refreshing to just have like this 16 year old who's you know,
22:14
seeing. I mean, she's really similar to
22:15
Rose. Like she's a she's a kind of in
22:19
her late teens, kind of in love with the Doctor, seeing all this
22:23
stuff for the first time. So yeah, I really like that side
22:25
of her character. But I think that a lot of the
22:28
writers of the book didn't like her and kind of that the bit
22:33
earlier when I said there's a bit of the book I don't like.
22:35
I really don't like the stuff about Sam Jones kind of being
22:39
created by the Doctors bio data as a perfect companion.
22:43
I think that it's really, I think that would work if she was
22:47
a shorter lived companion. But you essentially get kind of
22:50
two more years of Sam in the books and that doesn't really
22:53
get addressed again until she leaves.
22:55
And it's like we're meant to be invested in this main kind of
23:00
the second, the the lead of this series apart from the Doctor.
23:05
But she's also kind of not real. And it feels like it's maybe a
23:09
comment on the fact that Miles maybe didn't like her as a
23:11
character and kind of thought, oh, here's this interesting
23:14
other version of Sandwich. She's a drug addict.
23:17
And it was like the immediate 90s go to to make the character,
23:23
which feels like, I kind of feel like if you didn't like the
23:25
character and the way she'd been worked before, just write her
23:27
better and give her more depth in the way that you write her.
23:30
So yeah, I didn't like that. But you know, maybe that's an
23:34
issue because I know loads of people hate Sam.
23:36
Well, I mean, I spoke to Gary Russell recently and he said
23:39
that he thought she was the worst character bringing from
23:42
Doctor Who and I went, Gary, you wrote a book, I know you guys
23:47
and I was flocking myself every night as I was.
23:51
It felt like a correction, didn't it?
23:53
It felt like they were acknowledging this wasn't
23:55
working and let's try and make it more interesting somehow.
24:01
What about you then, Luke, the 8th Doctor, and Sam?
24:05
I feel like Lawrence Miles was able to make the 8th Doctor kind
24:10
of a force of nature, but in a completely different way than
24:14
say right as they're done with the 7th Doctor, 7th Doctor's
24:17
going to plan he's going to manipulate everyone.
24:20
Whereas the 8th Doctor is in an episode of Whose Line Is It
24:24
Anyway? And he's just making it up as he
24:26
goes along and he and it just it just works.
24:29
He just. Manages to kind of pull this out
24:32
of out of his hat, kind of like at the last second, like maybe a
24:35
Davidson story or something like that, you know, He's like, hey,
24:39
are you going to beat all these people in in.
24:41
I'm going to butcher the pronunciation Micklin or
24:43
something like that. He's going to take the mark on
24:46
and all this other stuff. Oh, yeah.
24:48
No, that's all right. I'll take that.
24:49
Yeah, no problem. And he gives it to the shift
24:52
instead. It was just really clever,
24:54
really well thought out. Sam, I forgot.
24:58
Existed until I read this book again and and it's no offense to
25:06
Sam, she's fine. She's overshadowed for me
25:09
because I used to be a bit of a drinker and a smoker and I
25:14
latched onto Fitz straight away, so he's the one.
25:16
He's the guy for me with the with the books.
25:18
But Sam was a bit of a a blank slate.
25:21
Even just jumping in on this, I didn't remember much about her
25:24
at all, so I kind of gelled with that.
25:28
Whole concept of her being like the perfect companion.
25:32
It kind of reminded me to Clara in a little in some respects,
25:36
but and I think like she's got the other, the other timeline,
25:42
the other personality and stuff as well, which I think is
25:44
unnatural history. We'll touch on a bit later.
25:47
I think John Bonham and Kate Orman were the only two willing
25:50
to kind of take a lot of these concepts on sometimes.
25:53
And of course, yeah, Expert, didn't he?
25:55
Of course he did. He's a terrible man, honestly.
26:00
What about you then, Mark? Well, I've got the benefit of
26:04
coming into this completely without knowing any of this sort
26:07
of general lack of people, appreciating Sam as a as a
26:16
companion, so I thought she was fine.
26:21
Although I don't really have much knowledge of the the
26:23
extended sort of world of the the fiction from The New
26:28
Adventures and what Have you, my podcasting partner Ian has his
26:33
own little spinoff show called Burrell Stories in the End where
26:38
he's doing the 8th Doctor and the New Adventures.
26:44
So I get the impression, from what I've heard of a lot of
26:47
those there, there seem to be an awful lot of histrionics.
26:51
In a lot of the 7th daughter sort of relationships like Ace
26:57
goes from this sort of stalwart companion to, I mean they do all
27:01
sorts of stuff to try and make her that bit more gritty.
27:05
Or you know, they have this, you know, totally different side to
27:09
her where she decides she doesn't want to be Ace anymore,
27:12
she's McShane or something. And I just, I can imagine I will
27:18
tire of that quite quickly. So Sam, in that respect being a
27:22
blank slate was. Very tired of new eyes.
27:27
So yeah, it's for me, Yeah, I didn't really have any
27:30
preconceptions going in and I found it to be perfectly OK
27:34
Yeah, she's not, she's not the most memorable.
27:38
Having said that, when you start off the the book with the 3rd
27:42
Doctor and Sarah Jane Smith, she's on a bit of a hiding to
27:44
nothing because Sarah Jane is such a beloved character in the
27:48
in the Doctor universe. I with the with the ace doctor.
27:54
Do you know what are you just so funny in this book?
27:57
Yeah, it was a bit where he finds out who the body is and
28:02
you know spoilers. This is an old book now.
28:05
It's him in the far future and his jaw drops for like the first
28:10
time and doesn't. I don't know how to say the
28:13
fellow's name. Is it keottle?
28:17
Yeah, I think they actually spell out the pronunciation at
28:20
one point, but it's like 3/4 of. Is it like Don Quixote but
28:23
Quijotel, Quijotel? He offers him 40% off his own
28:27
body and then does he just punch him in the face?
28:30
And I was in my head. And then there's another chapter
28:34
end where he goes, oh. Why the hell didn't you just
28:37
invite the Daleks? And then there's a a little blip
28:40
on the scanner screen. It goes, oh, you didn't really
28:46
funny this book. It's a lot funnier than I was
28:48
expecting. I didn't really realize there's
28:50
going to be quite so much humor in it, but I was pleasantly
28:53
surprised, Yeah. I think because it's so kind of
28:55
notorious for starting off Faction Paradox, and that seems
28:58
like quite a dark, grim concept. But it's like, it's really not
29:03
when you get into it. And also they're kind of like a
29:06
just a small part of the whole book because there's so many
29:09
other. Members.
29:12
Of that portion, yeah. Future unit, future Time Lords.
29:17
Yeah, it's all going off. Well then how did you guys find
29:21
this as? Because this is effectively like
29:24
kicking Doctor Who in a whole new direction, isn't it?
29:27
It's basically saying my version have done that.
29:29
They've done future history, they've done all the angst and
29:32
we're going to do this war with. Have they ever named the enemy?
29:37
I think they're called I Can't. Yeah, I don't think so.
29:42
I've got a feeling that you find out that this may be completely
29:46
right. I think that in the Ancestor
29:48
cell, which kind of wraps it all up, you find out the enemy, or
29:51
maybe future humans like that, the race that humans evolve into
29:57
or something. I may have just completely made
29:59
that up. So there's something else that I
30:00
believed about this book. Can you remember that with any
30:03
great detail might suggest that the ancestors say I didn't wrap
30:06
things up as, but like it it is. It's doing effectively what the
30:12
series one of the new series did, isn't it?
30:15
It's throwing in this war. It's throwing in big ideas.
30:20
What do you guys think about that?
30:21
Would you prefer Doctor Who as like a series of standalone?
30:25
Nice stories, Or do you like these sort of big ideas and
30:28
these big arcs, Luke? I'm gonna.
30:34
I like both. I like being able to just pop a
30:36
DVD on and boom, there's the croutons 4 parts.
30:40
Watch them, You're done. But then.
30:44
You finish this book, Alien Bodies, just like, all right, I
30:47
want to find out what what's going on with the Sam's
30:49
timeline. I want to find out what's going
30:51
on with the factual paradox, like what's going on with this
30:54
future war? How how are things going to
30:57
progress from here? Not for a while.
31:00
You have to wait maybe a year or two before any of these things
31:04
are brought up again. But I really like.
31:08
I really like story arcs and I feel like.
31:13
Doctor Who books are a really good place to do that, I guess
31:16
because we're all mega fans anyway.
31:17
We want a continuing story. Having said that, when I when
31:21
I'm watching the old stuff, I definitely just want to Chuck
31:24
something at random on the in the DVD player.
31:27
So I was quite confused for for a long time as as to why
31:31
everyone was. So what was the episode after?
31:36
It's got the land of fiction at the mind robber.
31:39
I couldn't work out why the TARDIS was invisible in the
31:41
invasion because I had I I never had a copy of the mine robber
31:45
and the video still never had it.
31:46
So I didn't see until I was in my well into my 20s.
31:49
So I didn't really get that cliffhanger and stuff like that,
31:51
but it didn't really matter. You just follow it on and it's
31:54
fine. The frustrating thing is with
31:56
this is this is like, this is like season one, episode one of
32:00
a TV show. Bang, here's what we're doing.
32:03
And then then it's like. No, we don't going to remount a
32:07
new pilot and all that. And we're not going to mention
32:09
any of this for like like three years.
32:12
Until Laura's House is back again for interference, You know
32:15
then that's right. What about you tomorrow?
32:19
Because as somebody who's news the book and news to the range,
32:24
what would this entice you to go on and explore anymore?
32:27
Well, I did have a slight worry before we started recording
32:32
tonight thinking. Am I actually going to remember
32:34
any of this? Because we arranged to do this
32:36
quite a while ago and I had a a copy of the book by 1 means or
32:44
another and I just just to explain that my attention span
32:50
is appalling. So I haven't really sat and read
32:53
a book for years and years and I picked this up and I just
32:57
couldn't put it down. I literally finished it within
33:00
about 3 days, which is. Practically unheard of.
33:04
So yeah, I really enjoyed it. I don't know if the rest of
33:11
Lawrence Miles is over is quite as good as this.
33:16
It's it's quite a thing to have to follow up on.
33:19
And I from my gather, he did his whole kind of spinoff range of
33:23
Faction Paradox novels. But yeah, I enjoy it.
33:27
I mean, I like, as you were saying just now, I like.
33:31
I bet it both, really. I do like story arcs, but it's
33:34
nice just to be able to dip in and out of stories as well.
33:37
I think I was listening to an interview with Andrew Carmel on
33:40
a podcast recently that was Ian's podcast again and he was
33:45
saying how with the things like they the new adventures, they
33:52
had the cat's cradle and it wasn't really a series of books.
33:57
It was literally. Let's just call them Cat's
33:59
Cradle so that we can get people hooked so they'll have to read
34:03
the next book. There was nothing really linking
34:05
them together apart from the titles.
34:09
So yeah, I don't, you know, I think there's room for both.
34:14
I just don't know whether you can keep that attention going
34:22
for an extended period of time. I think the the most successful
34:28
in terms of sort of like a sustained awe was where Andrew
34:32
came in. Was it?
34:34
Did you say it was the Earth arc and?
34:36
That that was six books also in 20th century, where the Doctors
34:40
lost his amnesia. It's post the ancestor Sale
34:43
after he's lost his memory after the end of the war and
34:45
Gallifrey's gone. Sorry, that's a lot of spoilers
34:48
there. For now, 20 years old, it's
34:52
fine. The.
34:54
Moratorium on these things. How long do you have to believe
34:56
it? But instead of having like a
35:00
structured story out going through it, it is literally six
35:03
books that take place throughout the 20th century.
35:06
And the Doctor discovers more about himself as he goes.
35:11
What? You know, Andrew.
35:14
Are you Are you tempted to go and explore more?
35:16
I mean, you've read some, so I guess, yeah, I think I've read,
35:18
I've read most of the kind of key books in the series, I
35:21
think. I mean, I do.
35:22
I love a story arc. I love a kind of continuing
35:24
narrative and kind of having to follow things across multiple
35:28
books and stuff. I think the problem with the
35:30
Earth arc, with the EDA's was that the story arcs just weren't
35:35
very focused. You kind of.
35:39
The plot threads were left hanging for years on end,
35:42
whereas in the New Adventures they kind of had cycles of books
35:46
which kind of would follow the same plot over 7 books and it
35:49
would have a beginning, a middle and an end and it would be very
35:51
clear how it went. But with with this, it kind of
35:54
felt a bit more scattershot which ideas they chose and which
35:58
ones they didn't to pursue. So there were just lots of kind
36:00
of hanging threads in the 8th Doctor adventures, and I feel
36:04
like that's why they kind of felt like they needed to
36:06
relaunch the books quite a lot. So they kind of been one.
36:11
Well, that's what happened with the with this whole time an
36:14
original Time Warock, it kind of got left after the Ancestor Cell
36:20
and then kind of it went off in a different direction and never
36:23
really got wrapped up until the final book of the series.
36:26
So yeah, I think story arcs are good when they have an actual
36:31
destination in mind. And I think maybe as amazing as
36:36
the as Alien Bodies is I think maybe it wasn't quite the right
36:40
focus for the 8th Doctor books and it kind of feels like it
36:44
would work better as a one off as this kind of look into a
36:47
future which is so far off of happening.
36:50
And because in the in the book the whole concept is that it's
36:53
kind of this perverse thing of the 8th Doctor sort of walking
36:56
in on something that you shouldn't be part of because
36:58
it's so far in the future. And then the way that the books
37:01
kind of then showed it all and kind of made that war happen
37:05
like in this it's clearly not the 8th Doctor whose body is in
37:08
the car skirt it's far far in the future.
37:11
So for them the kind. Of all the enemy and Time Lord
37:15
war to happen in the 8th Doctor books, just feels like it's not
37:18
really what this book was edging towards.
37:21
The the when he's learning bits about the future and he's sort
37:25
of going La La La La la. It's a bit awkward as well,
37:30
isn't it? Because they return to the
37:33
Ancestor Cell in the Gallifrey Chronicles.
37:35
They they do that scene where the Doctor destroys Gallifrey
37:38
again. And then they're in this really
37:40
unfortunate position where Rusty Davis is bringing about the show
37:45
and he's going to destroy Gallifrey.
37:47
So there's a line at the end of the Gallifrey Chronicles where
37:50
the Doctor goes, will build the new Gallifrey, you know, and you
37:53
know where that's going to end up you.
37:56
Know to be fair, these days Gallifrey's been destroyed so
37:58
many times. Matter anymore?
38:00
Does it? Also in the Gallifrey
38:02
Chronicles, they just kill Sam off in like 1 sentence like it's
38:08
so harsh They. Did a dodo they did a dodo they
38:13
they. Like, do the grave.
38:14
You don't even find out how she died.
38:16
It's like, oh, there's her grave and then the doctor's like, I
38:19
don't even remember her got amnesia.
38:20
Whoa, that showbiz I. Think it's great about that
38:24
though, is then Fitz basically goes, well, screw you arm off if
38:28
you're that callous, you know. OK, well I want to ask you all.
38:33
To because we've already said there's a whole array of
38:36
fantastic characters in this, so I want each of you to champion 1
38:41
character in this book. I don't think that's going to be
38:43
difficult. I'm sort of shaking up the
38:46
arrangement here, so I'm going to start with Mark.
38:50
OK, I have so many to choose from.
38:52
The two that really stuck out for me of the the people
38:55
involved in the auction were Katauxil himself or whatever
39:01
agreeing to call him. He's just such a shady little
39:05
twerp, isn't he? But just very enjoyably written.
39:09
And the other one that really got me was The Shift.
39:12
The whole concept of this being that is, is literally just based
39:18
on thoughts which they do elaborate on because you got the
39:21
the Celestis. Another kind of a, I suppose
39:26
it's from what I gathered it's like the The Time War 2 conceive
39:30
the Time War coming and they just.
39:32
Shift themselves into these beings of thought rather than
39:36
physical beings. So the idea of this thing called
39:38
the Shift, where it can inhabit their minds and change their way
39:43
of thinking and do all sorts of different things to change their
39:47
perceptions, I thought was a really interesting concept which
39:52
I've not really seen before in A dot Too novel.
39:56
Was there a sequence where it's told from the point of view of
40:00
cryptic crossword clues? Because the shift.
40:03
Yeah, that's right. It's filling out the front.
40:05
It's like, so funny. Mine was boggling reading.
40:08
Yeah, what's wrong with smoking? Very Douglas.
40:12
Adams Yeah. Yeah, I got a little bit of that
40:15
too. How about you there, Luke?
40:18
I find I find Mr. Shift about as scary as the embryonic kind of
40:25
security system of the of the whole complex.
40:30
So that was my that was my the scariest bit for me.
40:33
When Sam Jones is in that thing and all the embryos are trying
40:36
to help, yeah, it's really freaky.
40:42
But then just the idea of being attacked by concepts is, is this
40:48
freaky? It was really cool, and
40:49
especially how it communicates with everyone and that kind of
40:52
stuff. And I kind of like Trask as
40:54
well. His story's really sad.
40:56
You find out who he is, kind of how he dies.
41:00
Like, oh, I love the Shroud and era, but some of the missing
41:04
stuff is out of my wheelhouse. I don't know it as well, so I
41:08
didn't pick up with it. He was one of the characters
41:10
from the Highlanders or something like that.
41:13
So I had to. I had to actually look that up.
41:15
So thank you. So that was.
41:23
Yeah, he's the main he's the big bad from the Highlanders.
41:28
If my memory serves, he's the guy who's he should be executing
41:35
the Scottish rebels, but instead he's packing them off on ships
41:39
and selling them off to be slaves, right?
41:42
He's having some fun with consinuity in this book.
41:46
How about you, Andrew? Yeah, I was gonna say the shift,
41:51
but as we've already discussed that I really liked the chapter.
41:55
I think it's the one that which is called the faction story
41:58
where you get a character who only appears in that chapter,
42:02
he's kind of a. I think he's either a cousin or
42:05
a father in the in the Faction Paradox because they all have
42:08
kind of family titles. And it's just this very like it
42:11
would work as a short story in itself.
42:13
Because it's just this very creepy one chapter story of how
42:19
he kind of ends up haunting himself by kind of going back in
42:23
time and meeting himself as a child and then creating the
42:26
person that he was going to be and it all kind of then becoming
42:30
a big paradox. And yeah, that was just like a
42:34
really strong piece of writing. I thought that kind of worked as
42:37
this circular story. So yeah, that was a real kind of
42:41
standout moment of the book for me, the end of that chapter
42:44
where he gets killed and then it describes it as well again and
42:48
again, doesn't it? And I was going, I'm not going
42:50
to sleep, send you my therapy Bill Lawrence Miles I really
42:56
liked. I'm going to try and say the
42:57
name now. Homunculus and Marie, the
43:01
sentient TARDIS the. First one, yeah, it's amazing
43:04
the sentient TARDIS and their relationship where he's a bit
43:07
off with her. And then something truly
43:10
terrible happens to her about how through the book and you
43:13
realize how much she gets. And there's, I think there's a
43:16
description about like she's spitting out furniture and
43:20
things. It's a really sort of graphic
43:21
image of what's happening interdimensionally inside of
43:25
her. Like bleeding it out.
43:29
It's not organs and stuff. It's like tables and chairs and
43:31
things. What the hell was he smoking
43:33
when he wrote this? Okay.
43:39
Well, then was the, you know, we sort of talked about the
43:42
characters. Did you guys like the pros?
43:46
Was like a smooth read for you? Did it go down like Gullet
43:50
easily, Andrew? Yeah, it did, although that was
43:56
a horrible way of describing it. So sorry.
43:59
It's a horrible word. Yeah.
44:02
It's it's so readable. Like the prose is is wonderful
44:06
and really funny. The kind of, yeah, the narration
44:12
of it is funny in itself. And it's just kind of all these
44:16
layers. And I mean, God knows what
44:18
someone would think about if they didn't know Doctor Who
44:19
because there's so much kind of layer and layer and layer of.
44:23
Reference and and back story to it.
44:27
But yeah, it's very readable. It's a it's a page Turner, very
44:30
pacey. It's full of events.
44:32
So yeah, I think if you're if you're a Doctor Who nerd and you
44:35
kind of want to be entertained and challenged by a book like
44:39
this. I think what's weird for me is
44:41
that it was kind of at the time Lawrence Smile was seen as as
44:45
this kind of, like very controversial.
44:48
Figure because of what he was doing to Doctor Who, continuity
44:50
and stuff like that. But like, it's just a very
44:53
readable, fun book that kind of takes all these concepts and
44:56
does something fun and interesting with them.
44:58
And I don't really see, like, what's particularly
45:00
controversial about that. I mean, I know.
45:02
I mean, some of that was to do with interference and what you
45:06
did later, but at least in this one, it's like, yeah, kind of a
45:10
classic, quite easy read because it's so readable.
45:13
Remember when Chris Chibnall wrote The Timeless Children, you
45:17
know, and sort of threw a bomb into continuity and dare to sort
45:20
of change the focus a little bit?
45:22
I and that was the controversy here.
45:23
It was like, oh, we're making this dark faction of the Time
45:26
Lords and all of this. You know, it's it's the books,
45:29
you know, going down this this very sort of sneaky path.
45:32
I think. I think that was the problem at
45:34
the time. Why you did Mark?
45:35
Did you find this smooth rate? Yeah, well, like I say, I I read
45:39
it in like sort of three days straight, which is unheard of
45:41
for me, so. I didn't find it confusing at
45:46
all though. There's a lot going on and he
45:48
does like to sort of play around with time and introducing this
45:51
sort of huge pantheon of characters.
45:55
By now I really enjoyed it. I found it quite a an easy read,
46:00
Luke. Well, I I just, I just wanted to
46:03
read a chapter a day, you know, including like each person's
46:06
story. So I included those as chapters
46:09
as well. So by the time we got to this.
46:12
I would have finished last chapter yesterday and that that
46:14
didn't happen. I finished it weeks ago because
46:18
Lawrence didn't want me reading any other books at the time, so
46:23
it just readable, absorbing. And yeah, it's one of the few to
46:27
break the 282 page mark in the in the BBC books as well.
46:33
I think he's adventurous on Henrietta St. did but the pros
46:36
is so small that the the font is so tiny.
46:40
I think that probably runs to about 400 pages but you need to
46:44
read it. I think once you sort of realize
46:48
what the structure is, the the story's going to play out in the
46:51
auction and then you're going to get these back stories and like
46:54
Andrew said they're all like mini short stories in their own
46:58
right obviously. Andrew, have you read The
47:00
Tomorrow Windows by John Morris? Do you remember he he takes the
47:04
piss out of this in that where he's got an auction and he
47:07
starts telling the stories of all of the characters he's
47:10
picking off of that book. But everyone's a comedy back
47:13
story instead of like a horrific 1.
47:15
Yeah, and there's a character that's quite similar to the
47:17
Shift, but it's you have to address it in question.
47:21
Intonation. That's right.
47:22
Another conceptual thing. But it will own.
47:25
Yeah, it's very fun. It's.
47:27
Why is it you have to dress him by by just taking up your tone
47:31
at the end of the sentences? Yeah, so funny.
47:34
Oh dear. What?
47:35
Did you guys have any issues with this then?
47:37
Like, was there any point in this where you were like, this
47:40
isn't working for me? Look.
47:44
No. Well, that's good.
47:49
No, I I I find it found it really absorbing.
47:53
Maybe some of the stuff with the like babies and things like
47:57
that. I found it was a bit all right.
47:59
Yes, I can think of one thing. Sister Justine, the the guy that
48:04
came with her, what's his name? Manuel or something like that.
48:10
I mean, like, I I can do without having to have him call every
48:15
female character a stupid bitch, like every five seconds.
48:18
But other than that, he was probably my least favorite
48:21
character in the whole book. Not poorly written or anything
48:24
like that. I don't know.
48:24
He's just like his attitudes to women and all that kind of
48:27
stuff. It was just.
48:29
Not fun, so. I suppose you could charitably
48:32
say that he was written to be hated, maybe.
48:35
I don't know. That's it.
48:36
Yeah, he does. Get a really good line in the
48:38
book though, where he calls the doctor a time pussy.
48:45
They wrote that in my notes because I was like, don't forget
48:48
that insults been heard before or since.
48:50
It should be so maybe Irish a lot of time.
48:54
No, I'm not going there. How about you mark anything that
48:56
didn't work? No, not really.
48:59
I think I came into it with an open mind.
49:03
I wasn't really sure what to expect, but I ended up being
49:07
pleasantly surprised. I found it just a really easy
49:12
read, although there's a fair bit of complexity to the story
49:16
to a degree now, I really, I really enjoyed it.
49:20
So thank you for asking me to read.
49:22
It might be the only person that's got a serious complaint,
49:26
Andrew. Yeah I think I agree with Luke
49:29
in that you know there's the way that some of the women
49:32
characters are written about and also Marie like she's very
49:37
sexualized and it's the the it's pains to kind of tell you how
49:41
beautiful and sexy she is which just feel just feels very kind
49:45
of 90s doctor. I think we've thankfully moved
49:48
on from from that kind of stuff now.
49:52
Well, well, but. Yeah, there's I mean there's
49:58
just quite you can tell that it's a book that was written in
50:00
written in 1997 that's quite a few bits that kind of stick out
50:04
like the arms dealer character that we talked about earlier
50:08
who's the kind of Houses of Parliament who's yeah he's kind
50:13
of he's black and he's. Yeah, kind of an arms dealer and
50:19
kind of, yeah. Just the, the language around
50:21
the character. I just don't think you'd write
50:23
about character in that way, and I feel like you can only see the
50:25
Y of his tape or the Y of his. Yeah, my my only real objection
50:34
to it was how I just thought it was really well paced for about
50:38
2/3 and nothing was hurried. And then when we went to another
50:44
location and last night, suddenly everything was
50:46
happening very fast and I was like, okay, Maybe we could have
50:49
gone here halfway through the book to make all of that feel
50:54
less rushed, but it was still amazing stuff.
50:58
So it's it's not a massive objection, really.
51:03
Okay. Well then to wrap up Alien
51:06
Bodies, I'm going to ask you each the question I ask about
51:11
all of these books is 1. Would you recommend this to
51:13
another Doctor Who fan and to any other highlights or anything
51:18
else you want to bring up about Alien Bodies?
51:21
And let's go to Andrew. I would definitely recommend it
51:26
to Doctor Who fans. I mean I mean I said earlier you
51:30
know it's kind of built on layer and layer of references but
51:33
because it's quite early in the 8th Doctor run like most of
51:36
those references are kind of TV references.
51:38
So you could read this and kind of get it if you were a TV
51:41
Doctor Who fan and and so one one thing I wanted to to bring
51:47
up which I just found a bit weird was the the Unit the
51:52
future unit Unisek General who character he like.
51:59
It feels like he's based on a Twin Peaks character.
52:02
I don't know if anyone here has watched Twin Peaks, but Bobby's
52:05
dad in Twin Peaks is basically the same character.
52:08
And there's bits in the book which are basically just quoting
52:11
Twin Peaks, but it doesn't feel like it's a kind of.
52:16
I I just don't know why they're there.
52:17
Because there's the kind of bits where there's lots of The thing
52:20
is not what it seems, which is kind of the owls and not what
52:22
they seem as the Twin Peaks kind of repeated phrase.
52:25
And that comes up a few times. And then there's this bit which
52:28
I wrote down, which is I think it's like a dream sequence where
52:34
someone says, but sometimes my arms bent back, added one
52:37
particularly angelic Angel with an unfolding face.
52:40
And that is some like the Laura Palmer in Twin Peaks says.
52:45
Sometimes my arms bend backwards.
52:47
That's like her thing that she says.
52:49
And she's kind of in the movie, She's like this angelic figure.
52:52
There's people with unfolding bases.
52:54
And I was like, why is that? This Twin Peaks and alien
52:57
bodies, this doesn't really seem to connect to anything.
53:00
So yeah, I was just a bit mystified.
53:02
He's obviously a fan. It doesn't surprise me at all
53:05
that Lawrence Miles would have watched and studied Twin Peaks
53:09
in some depth. I mean they're working on
53:11
similar levels, Mark. Well, Andrew just reminded me of
53:19
a fantastic little segment where I I don't want to spoil too much
53:25
that obviously anyone who's listened to this far into the
53:27
podcast will be utterly spoiled by now.
53:30
But that whole sort of James Bond style sequence where he's
53:34
playing chess with a general and the general decides he's going
53:38
to pop a cap in his ass and he dives out the window.
53:45
River Song style to land into the TARDIS which has been parked
53:50
outside the skyscraper. What a fantastic little scene
53:54
that was, really enjoyed that. So yeah, I definitely recommend
53:58
it. I think it's.
54:00
I was aware of one or two things coming in, so although I hadn't
54:03
read very much of the Extended universe at all, I was aware of
54:08
what the relic was going in, which probably took away one of
54:13
the major sort of. Big reveals, but it didn't
54:16
diminish my enjoyment of the book.
54:17
I have thoroughly enjoyed it look.
54:23
I feel like this is one of those books where we could talk about
54:25
it for another hour and spoil even more of it.
54:29
And it won't matter. There's more ideas in there that
54:31
we didn't even touch mentioned. We'll all finish this I reckon
54:35
in in the next hour or two. We'll be sorry how did not
54:39
mention absolutely. It's crazy but.
54:43
I would recommend it. Maybe not as someone's first
54:47
Doctor Fuh novel. Maybe.
54:49
Unless they've got like a good knowledge of the TV show, at
54:52
least the classic stuff. So, and you might want to pop in
54:58
the Crotons. Oh, why Luke?
54:59
No reason. I think that's a good reason.
55:05
We all start with a target novel and not Alien Bodies by Noren
55:09
smiles. I mean, I mean, of course we
55:11
recommend. I actually, I do think this is
55:13
one of the best Doctor Who books there is.
55:16
Certainly in terms like conceptually, I think it's one
55:18
of the best Doctor Who books. I also, the thing I really want
55:22
to address is how much Stephen Moffett read this book, because
55:27
there's a lot of discussion about the Doctor's death.
55:30
Companions are essentially treated as massive concepts.
55:35
There's a huge segments about a Time War and sort of as we go
55:40
along in the Eighth Doctors there are a lot of ideas.
55:44
I know they were poached and used in the new series.
55:46
They're just enticing ideas. But there's certainly a lot of
55:50
parallels between the two. I'll I'll leave it to Mark, give
55:55
me a look. We're we're on either side of
55:57
the Moffett divide. I still love you too, but I'll
56:05
leave you to your decision as to who dealt with those concepts
56:09
better. Yeah, gosh, this is a good read.
56:13
It's. I'm always scared to recommend
56:16
it because it's so good. It gives you an unreasonable
56:20
expectation of the early 8th Doctor books, and I think
56:25
realistically only vampire science and seeing eye come
56:31
anywhere close to delivering. It makes me think a little bit
56:34
of when you try to recommend a classic Doctor Who story to
56:38
someone who's only watched the new series and you give them
56:41
City of Death, and there's really only one way to go from
56:45
that. Try some horns and no one you
56:47
know. Yeah, I mean nice and safe.
56:49
He doesn't love that, but it's such a good read.
56:53
How not recommend this? Well, thank you guys.
56:57
That was like you said, we barely scratched the surface,
57:01
but we have been talking about it for a good 15 minutes now and
57:04
we've certainly spoiled a lot of the book for everybody.
57:07
We might care to read it you fellows.
57:19
I've all got a book to recommend to this, this, and I I've entice
57:24
to find out what they might be. Let's start with Luke this time.
57:31
All right, so you did mention before we started recording,
57:34
maybe do a jokey book. And I did feel like since like
57:38
the 60th anniversary is coming up, maybe divided loyalties,
57:43
which will also divide fandom big time.
57:45
But. Speaking of Gary Gary Russell
57:48
and the the toy maker, the the, I remember reading that in like
57:54
no time at all. I thought, wow, I can't believe
57:56
how fast I read that book. Did you like it?
58:00
Not really. It was very readable and I read,
58:04
but for a book I really like, I'd go for The Crooked world.
58:11
It takes Doctor Who's concept seriously, Like we can land
58:15
anywhere in time and space. Let's land in a cartoon.
58:18
And this is not, not, not the Warner Brothers cartoons.
58:21
We promise. You've never seen these.
58:23
You've never seen these characters before, so.
58:26
Yeah. That's where I'd go.
58:28
It's basically like Doctor Who does sort of Pleasantville,
58:30
isn't it? It's that sort of idyllic world.
58:34
They come in with very adult concepts and by the end of that
58:37
book is really waiting. The first death that happens in
58:41
the crooked world really has weight to it.
58:45
Yeah, it's extraordinary. And in fact that has been chosen
58:47
for a future hamster book club. So there's three people reading
58:50
it And I said, yeah, it's this one.
58:52
And then they looked at the cover and went this.
58:54
You want me to read this? I was a huge fan of the Doctor
58:58
Who Book Club podcast, which sadly is no more.
59:02
Although there's a new kind of version of it and this was one
59:05
of the highlights of their run. They really loved it.
59:09
Yeah, it's pretty, pretty extraordinary.
59:12
Andrew, what have you got for us?
59:14
So I went for another early 8th Doctor book, Kind of the other
59:20
one, I guess that was influential at this time.
59:22
So mine is the scholar Empress. How did I not mention that one?
59:27
Sorry. I I just adore this book.
59:30
It's one of my favorite Doctor Who stories in any medium, and I
59:34
first read it when I was 11-12 maybe and.
59:42
Like, I've read it since and so much of it would have gone over
59:45
my head, but I think it's one of those ones which kind of works
59:48
on different levels. So yeah, you can read it as just
59:51
like an adventure story and but it also kind of is a whole kind
59:57
of meta commentary on Doctor Who itself and storytelling.
1:00:02
But also patful with all these amazing visuals, one of which
1:00:06
which we were just talking about things which were kind of taken
1:00:09
by the series when it came back. So the image of a red London bus
1:00:14
in the middle of the desert, I mean that definitely comes from
1:00:16
the skyline, yeah. So if anyone doesn't know the
1:00:19
book, it's the book which kind of first focused on Iris, Wild
1:00:24
Time, who was a kind of another Time Lord figure.
1:00:28
But she's kind of that kind of very campy parody of the Doctor
1:00:32
Who drives around in a red London bus.
1:00:34
And this one is set on a planet which is the kind of desert
1:00:37
planets and they go on a quest through the planet to kind of.
1:00:41
And there's many kind of, I keep saying the word kind of mad cast
1:00:48
of characters, lots of larger than life things.
1:00:50
It's the 8th Doctrine, Sam. I think this is the best that
1:00:52
Sam has written because it's by somebody who doesn't hate her,
1:00:57
just kind of takes her on as you know she's a she's a kid from
1:01:00
the late 90s and yeah, it's brilliant.
1:01:03
And I I love all of Paul Marx's writing, so this was kind of the
1:01:07
starting point for me. Oh I remember when the 8th
1:01:11
Doctor books came along quite boldly.
1:01:15
I think it was on records. Doctor Who, you know, one of the
1:01:17
forums that was available at the time said thank God we've got
1:01:21
those virgin new adventures out of the way now you know all that
1:01:25
angst and horror. He goes, I'm going to write a
1:01:27
brilliant RIP roaring adventure for the Doctor and Sam and boy
1:01:31
he does the pros in that book. It's some of the best pros I
1:01:34
think you're going to find in the Doctor Who book.
1:01:36
It's it's so rich, yeah, And massively underrated.
1:01:40
What the scholar Empress Or both?
1:01:45
I've got mad dogs. An Englishman coming up soon as
1:01:48
well. You know, that's another.
1:01:49
That's another Good. That's amazing.
1:01:52
How about you there, Mark? Well, I'm going to switch it up
1:01:55
a little bit. I'm going to recommend a book
1:01:57
called Script Doctor by Andrew Carmel.
1:02:01
So when he was the the script editor on Doctor Who, he kept a
1:02:06
diary. So you've got detailed sort of
1:02:10
information of what happened during the production of his era
1:02:13
of the show. There's a forward by Joe's
1:02:16
favorite showrunner Stephen Moffett, which I'm sure he will
1:02:19
really enjoy, but it's just a really well written insight into
1:02:24
very interesting period in the show's history.
1:02:28
Is that the book that details the fabulous conversations that
1:02:33
Andrew Carmel had with Pip and Jane Baker?
1:02:40
Yes, I think it might be, I think it might be.
1:02:43
He details. I've read it, but yeah.
1:02:45
No, He details this wonderful bit where your phone's up with
1:02:50
Jane Baker because Tom and Arani, you know, you've seen it.
1:02:54
And he's he's like, there's a few problems with the script and
1:02:57
Pitt Baker picks up the phone and then he goes like, could he
1:03:01
have Jane Baker in the background going, who is it?
1:03:04
Give me the phone. And she grabs it off paper.
1:03:06
It's totally head backed and goes, no, we're not changing the
1:03:09
script. Go away.
1:03:10
And he said basically that was our relationship.
1:03:16
Well, I'm going to recommend something completely different.
1:03:20
I'm going nonfiction and it's from Mad Norwegian Press.
1:03:27
It's the I Who Series of books by Lars Pearson.
1:03:31
Which was my Bible back in the day, because I would read these
1:03:34
books, but then I'd pour over the concepts.
1:03:37
Oh, have you got it on the shelf, Andrew?
1:03:40
He's grabbing it now. Have you got them all two and
1:03:47
three as well? Oh, they marvelous.
1:03:49
And they they sort of. It's it's like a detailed
1:03:53
version of the discontinuity guide for the novels.
1:03:56
But it covers everything, doesn't it?
1:03:58
Not the targets, but it's got all the BBC's all the virgins.
1:04:01
And the Telos novellas, and I think he dipped into big
1:04:04
finishing in the early days as well, and there's a lot of
1:04:08
opinion in there. So half the fun with this book
1:04:10
is reading the at the end of the day sections and going, what the
1:04:14
hell are you talking about? You know, terrible.
1:04:19
There's summaries, memorable moments, Ars whoopings, TV
1:04:23
tieins, character development, novel tieins, alien races.
1:04:27
Like everything you're going to want to know about the books.
1:04:30
Is in here. I don't even know these are
1:04:32
still available anymore, but if you are dipping into Doctor Who
1:04:36
books then this is your Bible to have.
1:04:41
Yeah. I think.
1:04:43
Do you have these as well, Blue? You're sort of not in your ass.
1:04:46
I I had a friend who had one and every time I was over his house
1:04:51
I'd be like, yeah, nice to see you and I just want to pour over
1:04:53
that. But my copy of the discontinuity
1:04:57
guide is falling to pieces and. That was the first time I ever
1:05:02
realized that people don't like the Dominators the way I do so.
1:05:08
He just Fraser. Gregory Yeah.
1:05:10
He loves it. Every single person that's come
1:05:14
on this, I said. Their discontinuity card is
1:05:16
falling apart, including me. I think the binding must have
1:05:19
been as he can. I ask you fellas a question as
1:05:21
well, because on every single episode somebody has confessed
1:05:25
that they've borrowed a book from the the library.
1:05:28
A Doctor Who book. I never took it back, so I'm
1:05:31
doing a bit of a turn for library services now and trying
1:05:34
to get anybody, anyone got anything on your shelf that?
1:05:36
You know, I was a good boy. I never did that.
1:05:39
I don't have it anymore, but I used to have the hardcover of
1:05:42
snake dance, had the library tags on it and everything.
1:05:48
When did you take that out, Luke?
1:05:51
Would have been in the. Early 90s or something like
1:05:54
that, yeah. That's gonna be a few dollars
1:05:56
now, I reckon. I.
1:05:57
Regret to inform you how you'll find the library services.
1:06:01
It's two and a half million pounds guys, this has been so
1:06:08
much fun. Thank you so much.
1:06:11
I'll keep doing this on Mike, asking everybody if they're
1:06:14
willing to come back and read another.
1:06:17
Those who book and talk about it, maybe tell me in private if
1:06:20
you don't want to say it now, but it would, it would be
1:06:24
amazing to have you all back together again because you
1:06:26
clearly you've got a lot of knowledge here.
1:06:28
Well, and there's a fresh perspective down in the corner
1:06:31
here too. Where can we find you online?
1:06:37
Should anybody wish to explore further or, you know, just stalk
1:06:41
you on social media? Let's go with Andrew first.
1:06:45
Yes, you can find me at at Dwcover Story.
1:06:49
So it's an account where I've covered all of Doctor Who from
1:06:56
including all of the books, looking at the cover up for
1:06:59
every single story. So if you scroll back in the
1:07:01
feed you'll find all that. I kind of stopped doing it
1:07:03
during lockdown because it stopped being fun because I was
1:07:06
doing work on laptop on all day and then didn't really want to
1:07:09
do it at night. But yeah, I would definitely
1:07:12
like to continue doing that. So may even venture into the new
1:07:15
series soon. Can I say these these that have
1:07:19
been posted lately? Oh, they're amazing, aren't
1:07:22
they? Absolutely gorgeous.
1:07:28
What's the source there? Oh yeah.
1:07:32
I think it's just a guy who is doing covers in the in the style
1:07:36
of Alistair Pearson, trying to do the entire entire range.
1:07:40
I've got some prints of his. I've forgotten his his name.
1:07:45
I think he's got one of those apps that isn't actually his
1:07:47
name. But yeah, there's prints that
1:07:49
you can buy on Etsy, and they're absolutely beautiful.
1:07:52
I'm sorry to have to do this to you, but I am going to do it to
1:07:55
you given that your entire tweet handle is all about Doctor Who
1:07:59
you. Now please select the very best
1:08:01
Doctor Who cover and the worst as well, please.
1:08:07
The worst, I think might be a book that's come up already.
1:08:11
No, I would say. I would say the Crooked World
1:08:17
because I because I think that Doctor Who meets Hannah Barbera
1:08:21
is such an amazing concept. And then they they put that
1:08:25
cover on it, which is just like, yeah.
1:08:32
Black Street could go from one One Direction to another.
1:08:35
Yeah, I mean, they have some really beautiful covers as well.
1:08:37
But that one is just like the concept was there guys and
1:08:39
that's what you did the best probably I think because it's
1:08:45
like my era, it would have to be like an Alistair Pearson classic
1:08:49
one. There's too many to choose from.
1:08:52
I don't know, they're also good in like his composition is
1:08:55
always really interesting and he kind of pulls in so many
1:08:58
interesting elements to to his artwork.
1:09:00
So when why don't we say dollar conversion of earth?
1:09:03
Because it's right in front of me.
1:09:05
Aren't you? I mean the the you'll recommend
1:09:08
the Scholar Empress. I mean, what is going on there?
1:09:12
Yeah, yeah, it does look like she's giving the V's, doesn't
1:09:15
it? Yeah, it's an odd one.
1:09:19
It's very strange, I've got to say, having sort of bought
1:09:24
everything from the targets of the BBC, the Virgins, Big Finish
1:09:27
and all that. So whenever you post a new
1:09:29
cover, it just gives me nostalgia feels every single
1:09:32
time Solitaire was up the other day I was like oh man, the first
1:09:35
time I saw that, so, so please don't stop doing it, all right?
1:09:38
Because yeah, I need to get back into my group for that.
1:09:43
Mark. Hello, hello.
1:09:46
Yes, you can find me at. We have a podcast, myself and my
1:09:51
friend Ian, and we're watching all of Doctor Who in broadcast
1:09:54
order, which no one's ever done before.
1:09:58
You two haven't done it before. No, it's true.
1:10:02
So perhaps our ISP is that we have a wonderful guest each time
1:10:08
as we explore the stories. And we are currently, as I'm
1:10:13
recording this, we're about to do the mind rubber tomorrow
1:10:16
evening, but as the the wibbly wobbliness of our schedule
1:10:22
works, we've just released our episode on the Web of Fear, so
1:10:27
we have an awful lot of fun. We do silly quizzes, we have a
1:10:29
bit of a laugh, and yeah, come and give us a listen.
1:10:34
Love to have you along for the ride.
1:10:36
I've not been on yours yet, but I am.
1:10:38
I am. You are scheduled.
1:10:39
Scheduled in there somewhere I've got a couple of times.
1:10:42
You have, Yeah. He's he's a pivotal, isn't he?
1:10:46
It's it's not for lack of wanting you on Joe, it's just
1:10:48
that I'm such a nerd. I've planned way too far ahead
1:10:52
so. In tomorrow you'll be, you'll
1:10:54
be, you'll be. Coming up at some point, but
1:10:56
yeah, keep your keep your ears peeled for Joe when he arrives.
1:11:01
Jesus, yeah, to put your head. It'll be loud.
1:11:05
And how about you? Look now, you mentioned the
1:11:06
podcast at the beginning of the episode before rest record.
1:11:10
Well, if anyone for some reason is not just not only into Doctor
1:11:15
Who but also for some reason into Japanese professional
1:11:18
wrestling. The Never Open podcast is is
1:11:21
something that I do with a friend of mine from America.
1:11:24
So he has to wake up at ungodly hours like I did for this
1:11:27
podcast and I just get to be on at 8:30 and just we watch it and
1:11:31
then then we just talk about it. So if if.
1:11:34
If someone's listening to this and the worlds are colliding
1:11:37
right now, you can. You can find the podcast there
1:11:41
wherever you get them. And what's is it like a social
1:11:44
media handle for that Twitter or is it?
1:11:45
Yeah, at at Never Open Pod is is for the good old Tweety.
1:11:50
And I'm on there at at Grumpy Two EB Grumpy 2 Electric
1:11:55
Boogaloo. Pretty much.
1:11:56
I'm not as grumpy anymore. I'm pretty mellowed out, but I
1:11:58
used to be. Could say I seem pretty chilled.
1:12:01
Yeah, so jumpy grumpy's talking about alien bodies, that's for
1:12:04
sure. Impossible.
1:12:08
Well, thank you very much guys. It's been a genuine pleasure
1:12:11
tonight. Thank you for your time.
1:12:13
Thank. You.
1:12:14
It's been lovely meeting you all.