Latest / Trumponomics / What Centrist Politics Is Getting Wrong

Transcript

What Centrist Politics Is Getting Wrong · Trumponomics

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I feel that we talk obsessively that the problem in
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: politics is at the extremes, far right, far left. I
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: think the problem is actually in the center.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to voter Nomics, where politics and markets collide.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: This year, voters around the world have the ability to
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: affect markets, countries and economies like never before, so we've
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: created this series to help you make sense of it all.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: I'm alegro Stratton and I'm Adrian Woodridge.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: In a week of difficulties for political leaders around the world.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I Love Schultz in Germany just about clinging on in
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: an important election, Prime Minister Michelle Barnier in France in
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: power but struggling to see how he will get his
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: agenda through the French Parliament. And in the UK, Keir
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Starmer hit by a scandal around free gifts that pretty
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: much nobody saw coming. We're going to talk more to
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: the gentleman you heard at the top of the podcast.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Michael Ignatief was the leader of Canada's Liberal Party from
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: twenty or six to twenty eleven. He led his party
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: to an historic defeat. More of that interview later, but
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: first of all, we're heading into the final stretch of
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: this year of elections, aren't we, Adrian and I think
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: actually the realities even for some of those elections which
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: have been and gone and we have conclusive results like
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the one in the UK, it is not plain sailing
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: for those new governments. It's quite a startling turnaround, isn't it.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: It's quite extraordinary. We have the Labor Body conference it
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: order to be a great celebration. You know, Labor has
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: just come back to power with a massive majority of
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: the tours have collapsed. They have i think the goodwill
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: of most people in the country, and yet it's a
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: pretty miserable atmosphere reading between the lines, partly because of
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: this extraordinary scandal over accepting gifts that Starmer has got
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: itself involved in, partly because of his sort of miserablest
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: a gender. He's talked constantly about how bad things are
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: and now they're trying to change it a bit, but
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: in a very performative way. But the problems of this
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: country are really very deep and it's going to take
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: a long time to fix them. It's difficult for you know,
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: what are essentially centrist politicians to come back into power
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: and you know, righte onto victory.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: But Sir Adrian, I'm interested in your take on the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: free clothes, get tickets, spectacles, uh, personal shoppers. Froth Or
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: says something deeper.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: You only get one chance to make a first impression,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: and their first impression has not been good. And they've
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: also acted in you know, hypocrisy is the greatest of
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: all sins in the democracy, and they've been hypocritical. They
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: lacerated the Tories for corruption, for party gates and all
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: the rest of it. They come in to pow and
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: they do what most people consider as be very similar things.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: When Rachel Reeves made her speech to conference, the backdrop
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: was something we called it read out the booming gloom.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: You know, it's gone too far, And as you say,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: they all were sort of instructed to go out and
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: course correct and be less gloomy. And one of the
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: nuggets in her speech was this idea that you know,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the investment is the answer, and that maybe even the
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: government treasury rules might be looked at in order to
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: allow borrowing to invest. So I think they're trying to
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: say to their supporters, are who are immensely grumpy that
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: they've had to go out and defend these free clothes,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: which they don't think are defensible. They've contorted themselves into
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: all sorts of weird arguments in order to make the case,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: which they're not comfortable with. So they're having to say
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: to their own followers, look, you know, there is a
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: point to this labor government after all. Just just wait
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: until the budget, which is six weeks away.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: The problem is that they sort of have this mentality
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: of basically saying, invest in Britain, We're a basket case.
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, they've spent so long saying how awful things
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: are and how many deep structural problems Britain has, which
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: it does that it's also now very difficult to get
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: foreign investors to come here and invest. Also, a lot
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: of the solutions to the shortage of money, for example,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: such as public private partnerships, which I think they will
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: revive in some sort of way. In the past they've
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: demonized and said is a terrible set of ideas.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Adrian looking further afield France, you know, the kissed armor
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: could take some comfort from thinking he's you know, he's
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: not alone looking across to France, where Michelle Barnier has
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: become Prime Minister, but it is still not clear how
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: he can get through Parliament what he'd like to get through.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: And then Olas Schultz in Germany just about clung on
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: in an election at the weekend, but it was a
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: very very close wrung thing. So, as is the theme
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: of this podcast, the travails of world leaders continue.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, Barnier is trapped in a really paralyzed political system,
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: and Schultz, I mean, the way the only way he
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: sort of survived I think in this election was not
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: appearing himself, you know, he sort of he sort of disappeared.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: He hid himself during the election campaign because he's so
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: so unpopular. He's a drag on the ticket. But I
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: think there's something bigger here that's going on, not just
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: France and not just Germany, Europe as a project. I
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: read that the Draggy Report on European economic performance, and
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: not only is it incredibly depressing, but the one solution
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: that Draggy seems to think we need to have, which
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: is much more centralized investment in high tech and the
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: rest of it, seems to be something that we can't do.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: So it's hard to see the great phrase the light
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: at the end of the tunnel, which Kisamoril and doubtedly
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: use in his speech today. It's hard to see any
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: light at the end of the tunnel for the whole
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: of the European continents, so not good news for anybody
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: at the moment.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Didn't somebody want to say that the lights from the
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Be careful of those lights at the end of the probably.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, Now let's get to our main conversation of the podcast.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: We're joined by former politician and professor in the history
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: department of the Central European University in Budapest, where he
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: was also president for five years, Michael Ignatief. Michael led
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Canada's Liberal Party and official opposition from twenty ozh six
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: until he lost his seat in the twenty eleven election.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: That elections saw his party win the fewest seats in
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: its history and be reduced to third party status for
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the first time ever. Now, Michael, we often have analysts
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: and academics and writers on this podcast, but we don't
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: frequently have politicians or people like yourself who've actually been
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: on the front line. Before we get onto sort of
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: high minded questions of voted discontent and so on. Just
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: talk to us about you know, just for me reading
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: out those sentences, fewer seats in history and so on.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Is it still painful?
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, sure, you don't go into Pola digs unless
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: you think you got a pretty good chance of winning.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: And the Liberal Party of Canada was like to think
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: of itself as the adults in the room, the natural
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: governing party of the country. I think we failed to
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: respond to the two thousand and eight financial crisis. I
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: think we failed to understand just how radically destabilizing that
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: had been to everybody's expectations and how destructive it was
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: to their confidence in the center of Canadian politics. And
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: so I ran as a centrist, moderate gradualist of a
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: kind that we'd known for many years, and it didn't
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: fit the sense of radical destabilization and uncertainty that hit
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: the Canadian public in two thousand and eight and two
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: thousand and nine. So we got clobbered, and to go
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: back to where we started it's a very very difficult
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: experience to get over. I've had a fantastic time since politics,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: and I'm all fine and don't cry for me, Argentina,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't easy.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: I'm can I ask you a little bit about the destabilization.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: I just wonder there was a sort of formula that
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: liberalism reached, which was economic liberalism to social liberalism, and
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: that did brilliantly in the nineteen nineties under Blair and Clinton.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: But are we seeing that formula falling apart everything like
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: immigration and public health and all sorts of areas. Do
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: we need a new formulation of liberalism to deal with
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: the fallout of the economic of the financial crisis and more.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Andrew, I think there's something to that. I feel that
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: we talk obsessively that the problem in politics is at
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the extremes, far right, far left. I think the problem
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: is actually in the center. I'm a liberal, proud liberal,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: but I think we didn't listen at all to the
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: white working class that in my childhood was in unions,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: was organized, felt intense pride in the work they were doing,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: and then lost income, lost status. From the early nineteen
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: seventies onwards. We didn't listen or pay attention to the
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: staggering increase in inequality that began to set in after
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: the oil crisis of the seventies, and so instead we
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: focused this is the more controversial part on a revolution
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: and inclusion, which men embracing a multicultural society, embracing the
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: consequences of feminism, bringing racial minorities into the center. I'm
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: in the universities now, and we've enormously promoted the entry
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: of recent immigrants, minority groups, women into the heights of
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: higher education, preaching the doctrine of equality of opportunity. But
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: the equality we delivered were for those groups and not
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: for the white majority, and I think that's triggered an
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: enormous backlash and it's threatening the center of politics. Let
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: me be clear, I am a passionate believer in the
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: revolution of inclusion. It's been the best thing that liberalism
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: did since nineteen sixty. But I think we neglected to
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: realize how disruptive it was to the subtle expectations of
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: the white majority, and that now has left our politics
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: open to politics of revenge, of politics of resentment, which
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: simply has to be dealt with. These are good citizens,
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: they need to be listened to. We need to think
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: this through, but without I woult to want to emphasize
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: walking back on the inclusion that I think has done
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: so much good to society.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Michael, what would you do differently?
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Boy? That's such a good question and so difficult. I think,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: first of all, we'd simply acknowledge that this is a problem.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Instead of acknowledging that it was a problem. We condemned
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: white working class voters as racist or sexist when we
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: weren't addressing the politics of feeling disempowered, excluded, and not
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: listened to. There are racists out there, there are sexists
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: out there. But we adopted a kind of conviction that
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: our moral belief in a multicultural, feminist, inclusive society was
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: such a self evident good that it didn't need to
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: be politically defended. And I think we lectured people instead
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: of listening to people. That's kind of number one. Number two,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: since immigration has become the ferocious source of discontent across Europe,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: we didn't manage something basic, which is a have a
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: regular legal immigration stream that is, welcome immigrants through a
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: legal channel, and secondly, have an extremely tough repatriation strategy
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: for illegals. The thing that is devastating the fragile consensus
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: on immigration is a sense that the country's borders are
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: not secure. Is a problem in the United States, it's
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: become a problem in Canada. It's a problem in every
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: European state, and until we re establish the legitimacy of
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: national borders and the credibility of immigration control, we can't
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: sustain what I firmly believe in as the son of immigrants,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: a regular, lawful immigration stream that compensates for our declining
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: birth rate, fills the jobs that need to be filled,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and creates avenue of opportunity for the fantastic people who's
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: so enrich for example, Britain, Canada, every society.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about twenty eleven when you left power.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: We're now in twenty twenty four. This is thirteen years
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: where the dynamics don't seem to be hugely different from
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the ones you're describing as getting wrong in twenty eleven.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Have you been surprised to watch things over the last
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: thirteen years not change and possibly get even worse than
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: successive governments not dealing with them.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I think I am surprised. I think you've got a
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: good point there. I think what's staring us in the
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: face is a capacity problem as well. I'm struck by
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: the fact that we have so much difficulty controlling borders.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, in Italy, I get it, it's got such
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: a huge literal and it's exposed into the Mediterranean. But
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I am a bit surprised that two powerful nation states,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Britain and France cannot control these boats. I simply don't
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: understand it. And then the solutions that are proposed flying
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: everybody to Rwanda are so ridiculous that you can't imagine
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: that they aren't laughed off the table of British politics.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So there is something very odd about what's going on.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: And I think it's corroding not just support for migration,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: it's corroding support for the liberal democratic state. If you
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: can't control your borders, you're failing the primary obligation of
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: any state, liberal or otherwise.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: But I wonder if there's a sort of strange paradox
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: here that if liberals, if centrists, fail to deliver policies
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: that can be judge in a practical way improving people's
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: living standards, they get punished, But if populists fail to
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: deliver practical solutions to problems, they get rewarded, in the
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: sense that people ask the more and more extreme populist policies.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: There's a sort of asymmetry here in the way that
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: the politics is judged, which is extreme destabilizing.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: That's a very interesting remark, Adrian, and I think it
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: has to be true, but it reinforces my point that
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: the center can hold only so long as the center delivers.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: When the center lectures the public, why aren't you more rational?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Why aren't you more reasonable? Why don't you accept our
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: entire liberal agenda? And then doesn't deliver the basics that
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: is a health service you can trust, a secure border,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: and some degree of economic stability. Then the credibility of
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: the center gets punished, and then, as you say, the
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: extremes get rewarded. And that seems to be to capture
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: some of what's going on with our politics.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: So I mean, let's just stay in the abstract for
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: a second before looking perhaps if you at your home
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: country of Canada. But before that, is this a problem
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: of maps, which is that we say that the center
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: can hold as long as it delivers, But the problem
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: is delivering. Delivering is now really expensive, and delivering requires
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: with all of the problems facing advanced nations around aging
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: populations and so on, it just requires a lot of money.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: In therefore, tax increases, and that is not something that
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: many people vote for.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's certainly true. I live Allegra in Austria,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: where the center holds because it's basically a high taxation
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: environment that manages to hold its legitimacy because it delivers
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the trains around time. The health service is pretty good,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: the education is okay, that you get a kind of
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: balanced equiliverum, high taxation but good public goods. In Britain
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: you appear to have in international comparison, low rates of
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: taxation and very poor public services. And the whole privatization
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: effort in the nineties seems to have not delivered the
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: service improvements. You have a kind of constantly discontented electorate
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: paying more for less, and that's just pulling the center
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: out of liberal centrist politics.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about the Canadian situation right now,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: which is you've got Trudam in power. He's supposed to
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: face an election next year, but it could happen at
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: any point, couldn't it. Michael, just talk to us about that.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: And apparently he's facing a politician that some people are
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: calling a polite Trump. You may not look.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I think that my successor as leader of the party
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: led the party to a thumping victory in twenty fifteen,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I left the party in third place, and he took
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: it to first place and has been in power ever since.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: But he is now the least popular politician in the country.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I think the irony there is that I said at
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: the time he's an actor who fully inhabits the role,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: which people thought was a very snarky, unkind remark, but
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: actually was meant its praise since I was a poor
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: actor who didn't inherit the role. I actually intended it
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: his praise. But I think people have got tired of
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: the act. He's always on message, he always sticks the landing,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: every speaking point is hit, and yet the cumulative effect
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: is of inauthenticity. People simply don't believe it anymore. And
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: so he's in that terrible situation of often saying the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: right things, but nobody's listening. And I think at the
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: moment he faces the prospect of defeat, although he would
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: be the last person in Canada to admit it, and
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: believes he will lead the party into the next election
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and that he will win the next election. I don't
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: quite see how. But one of the great things about
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: political leadership is you sometimes have to believe in yourself
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: when nobody else does, and that's clearly what he's doing.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: As for his opponent, he's facing a man that I
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: knew well in the House of Commons, Pierre Polief, who
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: has an extraordinary story. He's from the Midwest of Canada,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: very poor, difficult childhood. This is enormously in his favor,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: but he's the downside, and this is a feature of
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: British politics and other politics. He's never done anything other
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: than politics. He's been a staffer since the early twenties.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: He's learned and attack dog style of politics, taken straight
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: from the US Republican Party. And when people say he's
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: a small version of Trump, I think he's adopted the
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: entire style of American politics, and it's disturbing that's finding
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: an audience in Canada. But because Canada walks around saying
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: we're a nicer, kinder America, and our national identity survives
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: on invidious comparison with our awful neighbors to this south,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: whom we frantically envy but simultaneously despise. But I think
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: we're gonna get possibly a version of Canadian version of
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Trump in twenty twenty five, and that I think is
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: not good for the country. Because the fact about Canada
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: is that it is this gigantic democracy on tiny population,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: on a huge landscape. We're so spread out from Atlantic
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: to Pacific to Arctic that the job of a prime
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: minister is basically one thing, keep the show on the road.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And you can't keep the show on the road if
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: you run one section of the country against the other,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: one group of Canadians against the other. Unity is the
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: only thing a Canadian prime minister has to do. And
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I fear that Pierre Poliev has forgotten that.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Because Polief's major proposal is axe attacks, which is, get
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: did this forcecoming increase in carbon tax? Do you think
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: that's putting one bit of the population against another.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Well, he's figured out something that is a real issue
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: in liberal democratic politics everywhere, which is that climate change
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: politics is not religion, it's politics. It's highly divisive, and
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: at a time of rising inflationary pressures on people's household
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: incomes the prospect of spending money on a carbon levee
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: on your gasoline is extremely unpopular, and so he's seized
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: on that and hopes to ride his way to power.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: But it's symptomatic of a wider problem across liberal democracies
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: is that climate change policies are becoming more and more
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: and more unpopular, and so a liberal politics that cares
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: about climate has got to stick with its convictions. And
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: you know, Trudeau has sacrificed some of his legitimacy by
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: warbbling on carbon tax issues at a time when I
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: think we need to double down.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: You've been very pessimistic about liberal democracy during this talk,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: which I resent a bit normally my job when you've
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: speeds the mantle. But I wonder if there's anything sort
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: of positive that we can think about over the last
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: year or so, and whether there is a chance that
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: we may be seeing that sort of the end of Trump,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: you know, in the next in the coming election, doesn't
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: seem to be the leader in this election. Rate Is
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: there any good news that you can see in the
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: past and potentially in the future.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Boy, I'm I'm struggling a bit. Yes, I think liberal
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: democracy is having a very difficult time at the theoretical level.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: And that's not the right way to answer the question,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I know, but let me go there. The reason we
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: should care about liberal democracy, in my view, is that
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: it's power checking power to keep the people free. One
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: of the things that I think has got lost is
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: we have a liberal democracy in which we have an
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: ever more overpowering state that is ever less competent, so
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: it fills the gap between its power and its actual
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: competence with lecturing the public, and the public is more
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: and more impatient with this, when in fact we need
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: to deliver a liberal politics that really says we care
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: about your freedom. I don't mean the thatcheri freedom. I
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: mean the freedom that is sustained by just good, decent
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: public goods that we all share. But if you don't
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: have hospitals that care for your mom and dad, if
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: you don't have schools that educate the kids, if the
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: real way is always late, the liberal democratic vision of
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: freedom sustained by public goods just begins to collapse. And
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: my own view is that it does require a very
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: solid tax space, and that tax space and then is
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: being eroded by accountants to super rich people who basically
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: game the system and drain the treasury the resources we
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: need to sustain public goods for all. And then we
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: have to say to middle and upper middle class people, folks,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: if you want a society, if you want a place
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: that holds together as a place you want your kids
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: to grow up, and you got to pay for it.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: And most liberal politicians, I include myself, are very reluctant
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: to say, if you want public goods, you got to
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: pay for But this is what I think we have
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to go to.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: We have a labor government here that is trying to
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: do exactly what you're saying. But partly because they've handled
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: it very badly, taking a lot of phoebees and all
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: sorts of weird things, they're not getting the message you costs.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: But also because it's difficult, It takes a long time,
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: and democracies are impatient places.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I wish kir Starmer could listen to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: speeches again, because the thing that old Franklin got right
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: is whenever it's really tough, you can't spend the whole
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: time blaming Herbert Hoover. You can't keep saying there is
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: more darkness before the dawn. You have to say there
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: is nothing to fear, but fear itself will get through this.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: You know, the thing that he got better than any
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: liberal democratic politician of the century, last century or this one,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: is here was a guy who couldn't walk, who made
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: people believe in hope. It's just continually inspiring to me.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: And somehow Kure Starmer, who I think is a good politician,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: serious guy, has overdone the grimness so much that he's
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: forgotten that key function of liberal democratic politics is just
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: to say, there is light at the end of this tunnel,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and I am going to get you there and you know,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: hang on. I think Tony Blair had a bit of
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: that quality, but we badly need somebody who has that
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: magical quality to inspire hope and belief and confidence.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're gloomy about the prospects in abstract the
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: political theory of liberal democracy. Is there a country you've
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: talked about Austria where you live now, Is there a
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: country that you think is doing it well and we
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: should be studying more?
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: Please?
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Well? Well, well, Austria is a pretty odd example because
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: it's got a center right government. It could have a
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: far right government at the end of this month. So
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: people listening to me, see what has happened to Ignatiev.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: He's lost he's lost his mind there in Vienna. Can
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I think of it? Can I think of a place
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: that's getting it right? It's a little difficult I mean
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: the usual suspects come in here, Finland, Sweden, and Norway.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I think I'm pretty fond of Finland at the moment,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: partly because it's doing such a good job on two things.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: It's facing up to the Russians, and b it's investing
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: hugely in education. And I think that's as close as
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: I can think of a society that's succeeding. But all
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: of these places, let's also be the reason people are
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: irritated by the Scandinavian example is if you've had, you know,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: two hundred years of peace, you know everything's easy. It's
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: much tougher, and it's much easier if you're small. That's
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: one of the disturbing implications the good countries are all.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: The bigger you get, the more difficult managing these societies becomes.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: And so that's a disturbing implication. Small really is beautiful
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: in democratic terms.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: Do you think that the corporate world could be doing
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: more to solve these liberal democracy.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I certainly think they could be paying more tax.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And I'm please understand me, I'm a liberal. So I
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: believe in capitalism, I believe in markets, I believe in competition,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I believe in innovation. But the problem with capitalism is
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: we have so little of it. We have so much oligopoly,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: we have so much market dominance, and they keep telling
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: us that market dominance is necessary for innovation and growth.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: But I think that's been one of the biggest developments
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: of my lifetime has been the steady consolidation of economic power.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And then a further more disturbing implication again that frankly,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: socialists and social democrats have been quicker to see than liberals,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: which is the stacking of power. Economic power gives you
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: political power. Political power gives you economic power, cultural power,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: social power stacked on top. The very idea of liberal
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: democracy is that power is unstacked. That is, if you
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: have economic power, it doesn't translate to political power. If
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: you have political power, it doesn't make you rich. If
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: you have cultural or social power, it doesn't translate into
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: economic or political The unstacking of power is a healthy society.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: And we have an unhealthy society because power is stacked
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: in a kind of funnel in which everything appears now
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: to depend on access to political power. The guys in
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Silicon Valley, the guys at Google, the guys at Microsoft,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: are tremendously dependent on what could be called regulatory capture.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: They've got the state by the throat, and this is
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: an enormous, an enormous challenge. And having said that, we
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: have to have a liberalism that understands we want innovation,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: we want entrepreneurship, we want people sitting in a garage
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: making the next big thing. But God almighty, they've got
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: to pay their way.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: I think that's probably as good a big thought as
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: any place to leave it. Thank you very much, Michael,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And that was brilliant. Thanks for listening to this week's
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: voton Nomics from Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by me
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: alegra Stratton with Adrian Waldridge. It was produced by Someasadi,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: production support from Chris Martlu and Isabella Ward. Sound designed
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: by Blake Maples. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Sage Bowman is Head of Podcasts and Special thanks to
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Michael Ignatief. Please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: to podcasts.