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Healing Church Harm & Reclaiming the Sacred Feminine with Rev. Chantal McKinney · Modern Sacred: Women's Work

• Chelsea Henderson: Hello, hello, welcome back everybody to another episode of the Modern Sacred Women's Work podcast. We are so excited to have you here. And today we are so excited that Chantal McKinney is joining us. We have so much to talk about. I want to soak up everything that you have to offer. I'm gonna intro you real quick. Chantal is the author of Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls, a catalyst for your spiritual growth. She is a mystic, Christian, and visionary. a faith-based entrepreneur, a nationwide speaker, coach, and consultant for a wide diversity of churches, faith communities, and nonprofits. She is the founder of Root Thrive Soar and the co-founder of Water and Light, the founding pastor of Christ's Beloved Community, and the founder of Contemporary Mystics Publishing. Wow, that's impressive. She has established supportive networks and circles for women affected by harm in the church. and for spiritually expansive individuals. love that. Originally ordained as a priest in the Episcopal Church, she is now continually striving to be God's priest with a particular heart for the millions of people who are in exile and on the margins of the church. She lives in North Carolina with her family. Her first book, Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls, a Catalyst for Your Spiritual Growth, is available for purchase. Chantal, welcome! We are so excited you're here. Abby: Yay! Chelsea Henderson: Thank you for joining us. Chantal McKinney: Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. Love I get so excited about being with you all. Chelsea Henderson: The honor is ours. Your background is incredibly impressive and cool. And I will say, just to start, a little foreign to me, Abby was raised in the church, raised in Christianity. I was raised by a science-based, very dogmatic, no, no, it's the opposite. What's it called when you do not believe in that at all? I can't remember what my... Chantal McKinney: Like atheist Abby: I don't know. Chantal McKinney: or agnostic. Chelsea Henderson: Atheist, very atheist. Thank you. That word left my brain. Very atheist father and a much more my mother was raised in Catholicism, but kind of turned more towards nature based, of almost pagan adjacent. Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Sure. Chelsea Henderson: And so for me, a lot of where y'all come from is is foreign. It's just not how I grew up. So I I just want to hear all about it. And I would love to start. Can you talk to me, in my mind, with this kind of lack of experience in that, I didn't really know very many churches or Christian faiths that had women at the helm. Can you talk to us about how you began in that position? That seems like a much more male position to me. Chantal McKinney: Sure. in a lot of mainline denominations, which include the Episcopal Church, Presbyterians, Methodist, women can be ordained and so the Episcopal Church in some ways looks like the Catholic Church, like there's communion every Sunday, but women can be married and ordained. They ordain gay people, which I love, and so there's like overtly progressive and strive for equality in that regard, even have women bishops. So yeah, there's a whole world out there of more progressive and mainline churches that strive for equality as it pertains to women's ordination. Now, my my belief and what is true is that Christianity is a patriarchal construct. And so there is inherent biases and misogyny that's still happening. I mean eighty there's a statistic that's like eighty percent of women that have a leadership position in the church have articulated that they've experienced gender discrimination. So there's definitely Chelsea Henderson: you Chantal McKinney: challenges, just like there is in the secular world, but studies show that we have it even more because of of that patriarchal background. Chelsea Henderson: make sense. It's no cocoa. Abby: absolutely. mean, like, Chelsea said, I grew up Christian and, I did YWAM. I was like a YWAMer. If you've heard of YWAM and, Chantal McKinney: I haven't. Abby: it's a youth with a mission. It's a global Christian missionary kind of thing, which I had a great experience, but, yeah, I just think it's funny whenever I go on like a church website and I look at leadership and typically it's like, white men, white men, white men, white men, woman, leader Chantal McKinney: Absolutely. Yeah. Abby: of children's ministry, white men, white men. And I'm like, okay, probably not the church for me. Chantal McKinney: Right. Abby: but Episcopal churches, have definitely noticed, I have other friends who are in Episcopal churches that there is way more diversity within Episcopalian. Chantal McKinney: For sure. They strive for that. Yep. It's it's still largely they have work to do as it pertains to being multicultural, but but the gender diversity is they're really they're doing better than a lot of other denominations, that's for sure. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: And did you grow up in the Episcopal Church? Chantal McKinney: I had a really interesting upbringing. the first answer is yes. you would say I was a cradle episcopalian, meaning from the birth we started going to episcopal churches. So that and I was very active in our youth group and in outreach, had a great experience growing up. And my mom was spiritually expansive and so she taught us how to meditate at home. We would have what we call a church at home on certain Sundays that we didn't go to church. I went to r meditation retreats with her. I did Reiki training at the age of twelve and was like loved, loved my meditation retreats that I would do with her, like Silva Mind Control and had just like a great and some of my godparents, I had a lovely this is so like not according to the rules, but I had this badass mystic godmother who was a rabbi, a mystic rabbi, and I'm still dear friends with her. lesbian Chelsea Henderson: cool. Chantal McKinney: too, she's so amazing. Yeah, it's so spiritual, Abby: That's awesome. Chelsea Henderson: basically. Chantal McKinney: so full of love. And another set of godparents from Brazil that were very spiritual. So just had a really diverse upbringing as it pertains to how do we seek and stay connected to the divine. So we did all the things, right? Acolyte in church and meditation at home and wandering Chelsea Henderson: it. Chantal McKinney: in the woods and you know. Solstice stuff, right from so that was my upbringing. Abby: Wow, that's incredible. Chelsea Henderson: I love that. I love that. Can you talk a little bit? You've said if this was in your bio and you just said it spiritually expansive, that Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: feels like a really cool way to describe the type of person that I feel like I'm so drawn to and maybe even am. Can you talk about what that means to you? Chantal McKinney: I would love to. I love that term and I I hope I hope it always fits. Like I hope I never end up confined. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: and I think part of my deal is like, what does it look like to claim that I do want to follow Jesus and I love Jesus and I love aspects of Christianity and I'm spiritually expansive. And the reason why spiritually expansive is so important to me is because The reality is that in my perspective from everything I know and have ever experienced, God or goddess or divine love or source or light, however we want to deem the source of all creation, is so much bigger and broader than the confines of any religion. I mean, religions and indigenous faiths and prophecies have similarities in common, right? Like God is love. There's there's certain things that are woven together that we can that all major religions agree on, but I've always had like a seeker's heart of like always wanting to discover where where is God and where is God not. And I've never not encountered God. So kind of a theme throughout my book is like there's nowhere God is not. There's nowhere God is Abby: Wow. Chantal McKinney: not. I've encountered God on like the Metro in DC with like an incredible conversation with the woman that I met and Definitely in the woods. I love being in the woods. The wood like Mother Nature is God's first sanctuary for me. But like I want Chelsea Henderson: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: to always be on a journey where my heart and my eyes are wide open to where I might encounter alignment with the energy that is divine love. And that that takes me outside of one faith. I mean, I can have a faith in Christ, but I want to always be wide open to other people's experiences, right? How are we coming home? Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Yes. Chantal McKinney: to to sacredness in this world in which we all long for that, you know. Chelsea Henderson: my gosh, I love that so much. I love how you talk about not getting stuck. think when I was talking about my briefly talking about my background and I got stuck on trying to define my father as atheist and I said dogmatic, I think that he had become dogmatic in his desire not to believe in his fear of that rigid kind of construct of the religious institution. And I see kind of in your work, just in your bio and what you're saying, there is this amazing, when we kind of lift away the institution, what we do as humans, where we try to organize and we try to create, you know, this is for us and that's for you. And it's just very human. And we've created these institutions and you talk about patriarchy. mean, yes, this is created. the organization of churches and organized religions as they exist Abby: you Chelsea Henderson: even today, they were created a long time ago by men because men had the power to do that and women typically did not. And so, you know, there's this stuckness that I think happens when we cling onto that, which, you know, just because it's always been doesn't mean it has to still be. And that becomes dogmatic in itself, right? We become stuck. And I love hearing you talk about Chantal McKinney: That's right. Chelsea Henderson: not wanting to be stuck because that's, I think for me, the fear I would have around the institution of it, if that makes sense. Chantal McKinney: But that is correct. You would be right to have that fear. I mean, I think our patriarchal constructs want to control and confine and define for us Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Mmm. Chantal McKinney: the way. And in my book I write about fractals and spirals and how spiral fractals are inherent through nature. So a spiral fractal, I'll even I'll show you I've made my since felt like patriarchy is linear and time is linear, but I feel like you know, I feel like time is really a spiral and Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: all of nature, intrinsic is Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: in nature are these spiral fractals in seashells, hair, the cosmos, rivers, there's all these Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: examples in plant life where Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: it where the shape of the universe is a spiral fractal and a spiral fractal is always expanding. And it is the Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: opposite of confining, right? It's just always growing and widening. And I'm like, that's my faith. Like, that's how I want. So I also like want to just like say to people, hey man, it's okay if you outgrow your faith. It's okay Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: if you outgrow the box that you were raised. You can give thanks for what was good, give thanks for what you learned, release what was negative, what was toxic, but then ever expand, right? Just like the spiral Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: fractals of the universe. Always what else is out there? What are other wider ways of of discovering the way that love is present in this in this universe and in our lives and in one another? Such a beautiful journey. Chelsea Henderson: my gosh. Yes! Yes! Abby: I love the spiral fractal and it really it Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Abby: it defies it gives me permission for my own journey and for so many journeys Chantal McKinney: Right. Abby: out there because I mean when you're really in you know that more dogmatic patriarchal Church structure or whatever structure it can feel so terrifying when things start to expand out past it right like I'm gonna get kicked out of the group or people are saying I'm giving the devil a foothold or you know, what's happening? Am I being corrupted? And there can be all of these thoughts and really it just is like, I'm seeing God in the forest and that people are calling me Chantal McKinney: That's right. Abby: a pagan. know, people are calling me Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: a pagan for collecting rocks and putting them on my windowsills and feeling drawn to crystals or things like that. And, leaving room for that. think it's really an incredible gift that you grew up with both sides a little bit with like that Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Abby: more. traditional church structure and also a mother and other influences who were expansive from the beginning to give you that like neural archetype for like the expansion with the structure. Chantal McKinney: 100%. It's Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Chantal McKinney: one of the greatest gifts that I had growing up was a good experience in church. Like people that I loved and like this church was so into their outreach. I mean, I remember like making food in the kitchen of the church for people with AIDS, like back in the day. Like, you know, like Chelsea Henderson: OW Chantal McKinney: this church was really good. I had a I had a really positive experience. But then yeah, if we didn't go to church, it was like, let's it's time to meditate. And you know. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: It's a solstice, we need to honor it. So it was it was a Abby: That is so cool. Chantal McKinney: you're exactly right. And I will also say, even though I had that neural archetype, as you said, I was ordained in the in the Episcopal Church for I don't know, over ten years when I was in a large church and was severely harmed and harassed by the supervising priest. And what happened to me and then the subsequent canonical trial, which is the church trial when I went forward to report the harassment was so shattering of my worldview. So I was ordained as a priest when was 24. I was really young. And I had Chelsea Henderson: Wow. Abby: Ugh. Chantal McKinney: my whole worldview, like when you're the full-time priest, it's like my life was Chelsea Henderson: you Chantal McKinney: the church. And so although I had this really expensive upbringing, it's almost like the way my life turned out at that stage was like church equals God. And that was that's kind of how Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: it is when you're an ordained minister. My whole life was the church. And so it really shattered when I was not only harmed, but when the church didn't stand beside me in a spirit of compassion, like I thought would happen. I was looked at as a liability issue. And the way I Abby: Wow. Chantal McKinney: was treated was really harmful. So it that it took the shattering of that whole construct. For me to rebuild. And when my Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: spiritual lens was reformed, I was able to go back to my childhood while having all of these beautiful tools of like Christian understanding and scripture. And then what formed was was a whole new thing. So like part two of my book is almost like a a paradigm shift. Like what what could it Can we explore following Jesus for people that won't ever go back in church as it exists, but they're not willing to throw out the quote unquote baby Jesus Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: with the bathwater? Like they love the forest and maybe they love their crystals and all the things their yoga, their healing modalities, but they also love Jesus. And so, like, can we explore a whole other paradigm for following Jesus that does not require people to go back into institutions when the institutions haven't done the healing work that they need to do so that they're not harming people Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: anymore. So that's kind of like the journey of part two and it's super rich in meditation and intuition and silence and nature based, but it's also all like grounded in scripture for people that want to keep that part of their journey aren't aren't ready to throw that away. Chelsea Henderson: That, okay, so that's fascinating. It's beautiful and it's fascinating. Abby: Well, Chantal, that brings tears to my eyes. That's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's that's me. You Chantal McKinney: no. Abby: know, that's me. Yeah. I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm I think I'm Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, yeah, that is you. Abby: a lagging a little bit. But yeah, that's just really Chantal McKinney: That's great. Chelsea Henderson: No, you're okay. Abby: that really describes my journey is like, I don't know how to leave. And I don't want to leave Jesus out of my spiritual journey. And what does Chantal McKinney: And maybe you don't have to, right? Yeah. Abby: that look like? And I really love the title of your book, Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls. And I'd love to hear what that title means to you. And which I feel like maybe you already shared, even more because yeah, it's it's so hard for me to reconcile it sometimes. Like I miss the church. I miss the community. I miss. Seeing people on Sundays and things like that and yet most the time when I walk into a church doesn't feel like the fit it Most churches Chantal McKinney: Right. Abby: I walk into it just doesn't feel like the fit and they're like marriages between a man and a woman Period and they've got all of these I believe statements that I don't believe in and yet Jesus has been like the rock and foundation of my sense of security For Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Yeah. Abby: you know for so long, so I'm curious like What does it look like to follow Jesus beyond church walls? Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: Well, I want to it's such a great question and I think I want to begin by saying there's a there's a story, a parable in the Bible where the shepherd leaves ninety-nine sheep to find the one lost sheep. And what feels so right about the spirit of Jesus is that just because people millions actually let me share this quote forty million people have left the church in the last 25 years. Chelsea Henderson: Wow. Chantal McKinney: in our country, and of the 40 million, over 60% still say, Well, I still have faith in God or I still have faith in Jesus. I just can't go back. So like you're not alone, Abby: Mm-mm. Chantal McKinney: right? There's a lot of people like you. And the pi between that parable and the spirit of Jesus, what is certain to me is that Jesus doesn't sit there and say, you've rejected me because you don't feel home and the church. I don't believe that. I believe that Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: Jesus is much larger than that. And so that invites us to a journey of like, well, what are the what are the essentials of following Jesus? And what is it can it be possible to imagine being in community with with others that are rooted in a pattern of love without the requirement of a building or a denomination or salaried employees? Of Of course it's possible. Jesus didn't come so that the institutional church can thrive, right? Like Jesus came to sh to be the beacon of love and to share that love with the world. And can that happen outside of institutions? 100%. So the book kind of accompanies people on a journey toward that. But essentially, for me, following Jesus beyond church walls includes some semblance of community. And for some, you know, the quote, Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: the quote that I love is. Where Jesus said, where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am. I am in the midst of them. So listen, that Chelsea Henderson: you Chantal McKinney: can be on your couch with your roommate or your lover or your family Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: member. It can be having tea with your friends around your kitchen table. It can be in a backyard with a bonfire. So where two or three are gathered is there is community. And so I think the shift is, you know. For decades, for centuries, it's like you have your week and then on Sunday you have your sacred time where you get dressed up and you drive to a building and you worship and you listen to a man in a pulpit tell you how to think, inspire you in the word, and then you come home and you live your life. It's very segmented. And I think part of the shift with the divine feminine is primarily that spiritual authority can be outside of you if you give that away, but Recover that inside of you. The Bible says Christ abides in you. And several world religions are attuned to the divinity, the spark of divinity in you. And so what does it look like to reclaim our spiritual autonomy and to begin a journey of directly being in relationship and in communication with the divine ourselves? And then doing that in community, as Jesus says. And then to me, there's always this beautiful piece about loving your neighbor as yourself. So how can Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Chantal McKinney: you and your loving community somehow bless the community around you? Right. Maybe you're tutoring or offering food for a food pantry, or how are you volunteering a little bit of your time sharing your love with those that are in need? So it's really it can it doesn't have to be Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: complicated, right? But that's kind Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: of the journey that the book is on, is like You know, for for the many that do want to believe and that still love Jesus, like what does that look like if you can't go to your back if you can't go back? Abby: Hmm, Chelsea Henderson: Wow. Abby: yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Okay. So then I feel like you touched on this a little bit when you talked about the your harm situation and how they didn't. It's almost as if there's two factions here, right? The business of faith and the faith of faith Abby: Hmph. Chelsea Henderson: and that that's the part that didn't align there. They didn't like how you were acting as an employee of Christianity versus as a participant, as a believer, as a person connected. And to kind of take that a little bit further, you're taking Jesus with you because I assume that is your spiritual inspiration. That is where you find that connection to the divine. And that, if they're separate somehow, if they've been made to be separate, has that? Was that your experience there? Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Yeah, I write about that in my book that there is the essence of church that seeks to follow Jesus. And there's plenty, just I do want to pause and say, My goodness, there's plenty of good churches and clergy and people that are Christians, like Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Absolutely. Chantal McKinney: a hundred percent, right? So yes, there is the spirit of Christians and church that seeks to follow Jesus, and there is the business side of church, the church as business. And the more hierarchical and patriarchal, the more wealth that is going up, then you're going to fall into the mode of church's business. And that's there's kind of a break where it's like church's empire, you know, back from Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: the very beginning. And so Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: my book Teases Out talks about the pattern of violence and coercion with which our faith grew. Through the slave trade. Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: I mean, there's evidence where witches, women were deemed to be witches. And it was the Protestant and the Catholic church pitting in competition with women Chelsea Henderson: Ugh. Chantal McKinney: as the scapegoat. And they would kind of it's like who can judge the women more? I talk about Chelsea Henderson: Yeah Chantal McKinney: this in my book that this is a pattern of actually the church grows through the violence and coercion and harm. And so Abby: Yep. Chantal McKinney: part of embodying a nobler, pure expression of following Jesus for the future is to name it and shine a light on it and say, hell no. Like harm Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: cannot be carried forward in future expressions of faith that people Abby: Yep. Chelsea Henderson: Right. Chantal McKinney: will continue to leave and pull away. And so but yes, women and men are a liability issue when we come forward in the church and it's totally hypocritical and totally corrupt. And it goes against the teachings of Jesus. Very basic. And and Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Chantal McKinney: as my book came out, the more I spoke about it and wrote about it, the more women and men have come forward. So we now have, there's now quite a bit of advocacy work that I'm doing about women in the in the Episcopal Church now, which is a beautiful progressive mainstream denomination, but it goes to show if it's happening there. Surely it's happening Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: everywhere because that's part of the patriarchal background we're where indeed people are being harmed behind closed doors and discrimination happens and retaliation happens because they'd rather protect the institution than the people. But it's like, hey, the church is the people, remember? Like Jesus didn't come for Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Great. Chantal McKinney: Jesus didn't come for your bottom dollar, right? So like Right. It makes total sense to the Chelsea Henderson: Right, right, right, right. Abby: Right? Right? One, it creates? Chantal McKinney: average person, but for people high up in a church, boy, they would disagree. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: This, well, and it creates this like, you know, you get people to read the words of Jesus and to experience Jesus and meet Jesus, who is a very radical political figure. You know, he is, he was, you know, murdered by the Roman empire for being outspoken against greed and against corruption. I mean, he was Chantal McKinney: Right. Right. Abby: a radical political figure that Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: was so inspiring. that it inspired people to rise up against corruption and against political and religious corruption. So you introduce people to this incredibly intriguing person and spirit, and then at the same time exists this church structure. And so, I don't know, there's just like a lot of content even on the internet and like kind of. people like myself who used to be more involved in the church of like, you know, who radicalized me was Christianity. Christianity Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Abby: is what made me care about people and about marginalized, about homeless, about the planet, about people who don't have clean drinking water. Like it was Jesus who radicalized me and I love Chantal McKinney: That's right. Abby: Jesus so much that I choose to leave the church that was my home. And it's just like this really interesting. Chelsea Henderson: and Abby: thing that keeps happening with the church all through history is people who catch hold of the spirit of Christ and can't be within the corruption of the church. And I even remember learning about like, I don't know, I think they called it the difference between Christianity and Christian Dom, Christian Dom, is like, Chantal McKinney: Mm. Yeah. Abby: you know, at the same time that we have Mother Teresa, we have corruption in like the larger Roman Catholic Church. And at the same time that we had just at the same time at all throughout history that there was so much oppression. There's also this beautiful story being woven of Christianity, of people selling all of their possessions and going and helping the poor or creating these incredible, you know, AIDS research. And most of the hospitals are originally Christian nonprofits of usually women, Chantal McKinney: That's right. Abby: nuns. who wanted to help the sick. And so there's just like these two stories that are happening at the same time that every Christian finds Chantal McKinney: That's exactly right. Yeah. Abby: themselves in. And you're like, which one am I going to choose? And then especially with our current president, a lot of us are choosing to not be a part of that. And, it's a revolution. Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Chantal McKinney: Yeah, Christian nationalism makes it really crystal clear who like what are we rejecting actually, you know. It's Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: very easy to name it. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: No, you you summarized it beautifully, Abby. I couldn't have asked for a better summary, but that's exactly right. And and yet, I can't tell you how many of these women that are being harmed have quietly said, Thank you for speaking up because I can't, because they want to keep they need to keep their jobs or they don't feel safe speaking up. And so we do Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: absolutely have a problem in institutional denominations, even the mainline ones, even the progressive ones. it's still a problem. And so part of like the, you know, back to the question of what does it look like to follow Jesus beyond church walls, I think it begins with these with circles, almost like back to the house church model before things got Chelsea Henderson: you Chantal McKinney: institutionalized. Like what's what can we go back to where two or three are gathered for those that won't go back to church? Go back to Chelsea Henderson: Right. Chantal McKinney: where two or three are gathered and and go back to just finding the simple ways that you can be a blessing to your communic community in a spirit of love. that Jesus honors those simple ways and that you are not required to you're not obligated to go to a church that is not nourish spiritually nourishing you or where you feel unsafe or where you cannot expand spiritually, where your faith is being hindered or limited. That that can we can we Remind ourselves of our spiritual autonomy, right? And and trust that that Jesus is much broader than than even the denominations. Abby: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Well, yeah, you you talk about that spiral, right? And the beauty of a spiral Chantal McKinney: Uh-huh. Chelsea Henderson: versus a straight line is that eventually that spiral encompasses everything. The straight line is only Chantal McKinney: That's right. Chelsea Henderson: headed towards one thing. So if we have the spiral Chantal McKinney: That's it. Chelsea Henderson: that is encompassing everything, that would encompass each of us. And then that means, and I've heard this many times, whether we're talking about, you know, the... you know, divine feminine or just divinity at large or the Holy Spirit, whatever it is that moves you, whatever it is that connects you, that it's within you. And I really love that because that's what, when I was growing up outside of any church, I felt excluded and I didn't have what they had. I felt judged. And when I started to hear about that and learn about that, that it's for everyone and it's within, that was incredibly inspiring, but it also healed some wounds for me of this is not a cool girl club that you're just not welcome in. This is within. It's for everyone. And that's really important. Chantal McKinney: It's so liberating because no one can take that away from you. Right? Like meditating, Chelsea Henderson: Ugh, yes. Chantal McKinney: drawing you to God in the silence, that's free. You can do it anywhere. You can do it anytime. I mean, granted, some have to lock the bathroom door to get a break from the kids, but like it is yours and no one can take that away. And it is super Chelsea Henderson: Yeah Chantal McKinney: liberating. And you know, I feel like the it's for me, integrating the divine feminine is about Pointing to another face of God. It's the same God, but like acknowledging woman wisdom and the aspects of the sacred feminine that have been left out of the storyline, left out of patriarchal expressions of religion. there are incredible sacred feminine figures that we can learn and be moved from that deserve our attention. But part To me, part of reclaiming the sacred feminine is reclaiming those aspects of ourselves that have been suppressed and oppressed by patriarchy. It's reclaiming all of us, right? So that a woman does not only exist for her beautiful appearance and to be the servant and to be an a set the second fiddle to the man, but that all of us is welcomed. And so to be on that journey of reclaiming our shadow side and widening what we deem to be beautiful and sacred and passionate, all those things. It's like such a lifelong journey because we were all raised, at least I was, was really raised in like this is how you serve and smile and you know, like so what does Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: it mean to re to reclaim a wider expression of like who what is my purpose and how do I find joy and success and all of that? Chelsea Henderson: Wow. Abby: Mm, I love that. And that, that really speaks to why we call this podcast modern sacred women's work, because we are flipping the term women's work on its head. Because women's work typically, right, it's like, serve your husband, serve your household clean, cook, be pretty, do all of that. And it's like, actually, women's work is a deeply spiritual rebalancing of these masculine and feminine energies. Women's work is your mom saying, we're not going to church today, we're meditating, we're connecting within, Chelsea Henderson: you Abby: we are going to connect in a different way. That's there's this like, very needed spiritual labor that women or feminine individuals are bringing to this equation. That's so cool to meet, Chantal McKinney: Yeah, for easy. Abby: meet you that's do you know, the way that You are rebalancing that within your space and with your experience is so needed. Like each woman that we've met, each woman that I meet, that we have on the podcast is doing it in our own way is balancing out that energy. Chantal McKinney: Yeah, Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: no, you're you're exactly right. it it I think we do need to define what women's work is and it is about reclaiming and broadening the the spirituality and also pursuing our own passions. And for me, a lot of you know, I work I do coaching for church planting where I'm starting up helping leaders start up faith communities on the ground and I've started up circles on the ground. And I love the energy of co-creating, right? Like we have this. Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: male figure of God in Christianity, but God is a creator. And and a creator, we are the creators. I mean, I really believe that one Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: of the reasons why our power has been suppressed is because we are the creators. We are the the life givers. And Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Yes. Chantal McKinney: so for me part of reclaiming women's work is stepping into what co-creating looks like. So Chelsea Henderson: Ugh. Chantal McKinney: part of my book, although and it is following Jesus Beyond Church Walls, but I have a whole chapter on co creating. So how do we co create the realities we want to live in? And then and I've been practicing in the creation of all of my endeavors that you read earlier in the bio and the work I do in starting and helping people start organize their organizations and circles, but I think how we co create is using that feminine energy. Abby: we lost Chelsea. Man, we are having a day today. But yeah, I love that. I love the co-creation side. And I joke sometimes because I'm like, I feel like God made it as clear as they could. Like we birth the humans. Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Abby: We birth the humans. We feed them from our very bodies. Like that we are, I don't. I have to be careful not to elevate women above men, honestly, sometimes because I'm like, we are these incredible beings that birth life, like this is so Chantal McKinney: is incredible. Abby: amazing. And also when you look at like metadata of men versus women, women are typically better collaborators. We Chantal McKinney: That's right. Abby: are better collaborative leaders where we can kind of meet people where they're at, see their perspective. and like in a leadership way, I hate to say that we're better, but we're different. We're better at being collaborative. There are certain strengths that women bring to the table, which then you look at all the problems our society has and you see that women are the antidote to a lot of it and that we birth the humans also. And I'm like, I feel like if there is a God, they are being like, I thought I made it as clear as I could that these are the ones to be like, you know, to follow. Women are not as violent. Women are more nonviolent societally. You know, all of the things. Chantal McKinney: Yeah. More yeah. We're compassionate. Right. No, I totally agree. And I and I just think I think we haven't the whole like I love the notion of gentleness as a strength. Like Power and gentleness. I think about the way that a water flows. I mean, water is such a strong element. It can, it can turn a mountain soft over the years, but it's so gentle. It is flow. It's beautiful. But yeah, there's so many innate powerful qualities of women that have been suppressed over centuries, over millennia. But it does feel like now is a time where I feel like more and more women are like, this is our time. I was like I Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: was in Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: a group of like fifty women yesterday here in my town. There's gonna be this cool conference called Many Women, Many Stories and went in October in Winston-Salem. And the room was electric. I mean poets, musicians, authors, entrepreneurs, like they were spiritual and talented and beautiful and just like badass in all the ways. It was such an honor. to like be one of them on my n I would love the Chelsea Henderson: Yeah Chantal McKinney: energy in the game. This and this is our time, right? Like it just we are great. It's it's okay to say that. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yeah! Abby: We are women. We are fucking awesome. Like I love, I love being in those rooms with that, with women who Chelsea Henderson: We really are. Chantal McKinney: We are pretty awesome. Yes. Yes. Abby: are free to, what a just, it's such a great time to be alive, to be a woman who Chantal McKinney: Yes. Chelsea Henderson: Ugh, you got that right. Abby: can be in that room and who, and then I work in medicine. I'm a nurse and I look around during rounds, sometimes at different hospitals, all the doctors are women, all the pharmacists are women. lot of the surgeons are women, not everywhere, but in a lot of the rooms I would find myself in medicine, I'm like, what's up ladies? What are we doing for our people today? I'm like, this is Chantal McKinney: Ha ha ha. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: amazing. And the thing that Chelsea and I talk about is, know, we don't want to, we also don't want to leave men behind because there's also that happening Chelsea Henderson: Yes, yeah Abby: where there's the loneliness epidemic with men. There Chantal McKinney: For sure. For sure. Abby: women are outpacing men. I just read a study that for Gen Z. women are outpacing men in home ownership, single women compared to single men, Chantal McKinney: Wow. Abby: which is awesome. I'm like, yes. And also like, I don't want to, you know, we don't want to leave the men behind and, and just balancing that is go ahead. Yeah. Chantal McKinney: Yeah. I have a I have two teen boys. So yeah, I get it. I'm like, I don't want you know, it you're exactly right. But I mean I have to so first I want to say like I I do think I just wanna name like I think decades ago in our society women would have been pitted against each other or more siloed, staying in the Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: home and not I I feel like we're co creating a more collaborative experience where women are supporting other women. And at least at least I strive to be in those circles and to be one of those women. But but I totally Chelsea Henderson: Same. Chantal McKinney: agree. I I have an incredible husband and he's awesome and my two boys are awesome. And I want I I don't think integrating the divine feminine needs to be a pendulum swing where women are thriving and men are suffering. I think the pendulum Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Yes. Chantal McKinney: swing is like we are all thriving and we're all in a new spirit. together and so I mean I want that too. I mean I want that I want Abby: Yeah. Yeah, same. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: I want that for my boys and my guy and I know too that this patriarchal construct that we're in now it sucks for men too. Like there's a lot of lonely men out there and it's hard for Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Absolutely. Chantal McKinney: men to find and be a part of like solid friendships. And so yeah. yeah all the things. Chelsea Henderson: It's not helping most people, it seems like. It's really where we've landed with that. that almost what Chantal McKinney: Right. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: used to be patriarchal in terms of the sense of men having the power and kind of creating things on behalf of everyone has now turned into those with the most. economic resources have the power and are creating things for everyone. And so we've kind of shifted into this like that what once was more male domination is now money domination. And I think that's interesting even talking, going back to talking about church as business versus church as as spirituality, you know, that that's taken such a hold in our existence as humans. And it's become it feels like almost our Achilles heel that we created all of this, but it might be our undoing. what we have to work against. So if we're talking about rebalancing, it's really, you say that all of us should thrive. Like, of course, why shouldn't we all thrive? We have everything we need. We're just kind of getting in our own Chantal McKinney: Right. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: way a little bit. So there's the healing is almost in that it is for all of us. And I love that you talk about that. And I love that you talk about your husband and you know, I have an amazing husband. Abby has an amazing husband. I have a beautiful son. so grateful for men and masculinity and what the healthy expression of that looks like Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: and has to offer. And I even love the masculine within myself, those moments where I can kind of just like really get, okay, like it's time to move this thing, metaphorical, physical, whatever. Like let's do that. Chantal McKinney: Absolutely. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I think that's amazing. So Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I think it's important and we do talk about that just even before Because for us, our goal is inclusivity, you know? And you talk about co-creation, you can't create without those two halves, you know, in the simplest of senses. it really, Abby and I find this in our Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: business partnership as well as in our friendship. It's like, we're both bringing different things and it's that kind of collaborative bringing things together that allows the best thing to be built. And I think that's where we're at as a species and I think that's where the spirituality conversation really comes. in is that that is that's an important thing for all of us to take into our awareness is that it's just gonna take all of us to really kind of be who we are and fully encompass that and to really come together and clasp hands and and create together move forward and it feels inspiring yeah Chantal McKinney: Yeah, absolutely. I do I do I feel like there's so I feel like the constructs that we s in from what I see on many levels, the constructs that have been created under patriarchy, which is everything we see, healthcare and insurance industry and education and government and church, Chelsea Henderson: you Chantal McKinney: religion, you see them almost like breaking open, right? Chelsea Henderson: Yes! Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: It's it just I find we're there's a breaking away and a breaking open that corruption is kind of starting to rear its ugly head and we're seeing profit over people, profit over people, profit over people at every turn. And so we are seeing the way that when institutions are created strictly from patriarchy, that that they don't have adequate compassion for the people. And they do choose money over the people. And so I do think that we will continue to see the breaking open of these institutions because I do think a new way is rising and that new way rises Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: through the ashes. And the new way Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: doesn't have to be only divine feminine, but I I do think that what what's rising up can be a more balanced way where we're saying, Hey, here's what we want to keep from from what has been and let's enter let's allow in compassion and appreciation of emotion and intuition and just more collaborative aspects of our leadership. There's so much that we can allow in that would make the world a better place. Chelsea Henderson: That's really interesting. you Abby: Mmm, I love it. Chelsea Henderson: have you seen a specific catalyst in your mind for that rising of a new era or is it just too long? I mean, we're in, you know, five thousand years of documented patriarchal rule here and probably much, much longer. But you're absolutely right about our institutions Chantal McKinney: And yeah. Chelsea Henderson: being built through patriarchal patriarchy. So then is there a specific catalyst or is this just kind of long time coming in your eyes? Chantal McKinney: think it's long time coming. There's two two things that have that have stayed with me that I'm happy to share and I'm so afraid I might get the authors wrong. And so if I do, I'll like email you so that you can correct it somewhere. Chelsea Henderson: Absolutely. We'll put it in the show notes. Chantal McKinney: But I don't know who said this, but I never forgot it. Was it Phyllis Tickle or I'm not sure, but it was kind of like the it the quote is the first two thousand years was the father, the reign of the father, and the second two thousand years was the reign of the son, and it's the third two thousand years, which is the reign of the spirit. And the spirit in scripture Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: is a feminine energy. Numa and Ruach, Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: it's of it's a feminine energy that is the Holy Spirit. So that has stayed with me, number one. But then number two, I want to say it's Philistickle. This is this is in my book. I just I'm not positive on the author. So I do have it adequately quoted in my book where a lovely author s talked about a huge turn that has happened every five hundred years with the church. Like reformation happening. there's a big Abby: Yep. Chantal McKinney: reform that happens every five hundred years and we're right, we're right, we're due for reform again. And so Chelsea Henderson: Huh. Chantal McKinney: I love leaning into that energy and and believing in cycles and spirals as we've talked about. I do Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: believe it's it's time again. We've had it's been 500 years since Reformation. So it's time again that we look to reform. So with those two things in mind, and then what I just simply see by looking at the macro level of like what is happening in the world, I just think we're it we're due for reform and we're due for a divine feminine like influx of energy and leadership and people. So Abby: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: I feel, we feel you on that. We're ready. We're ready in Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: like the best way. It's kind of an open arms, open heart situation of just like, I just wanna, I mean, you talked about this at the beginning and I was like feeling my chest kind of opening as you talked about it, but just the seeing God in everything, you know, just seeing in nature, in your pets, in the safe structure of your home, in. In the amazing food we're so privileged to get to eat every meal every day without scarcity or fear for those of us lucky enough to live this type of life and in our children and all of it. that just feels to me like where we're headed of that just kind of that sigh of relief that our species has worked really hard for a long time to create just baseline survival. And now there are some of the energy that has been kind of in power for so long is starting to eat itself alive, you know, with more wars and more scarcity and fear. And I think that so many of us are just dropping our arms in kind of this beautiful surrender to just, no, let's just take that deep breath and recognize that we all have that mother inside of us. We all have that ability to self soothe and comfort ourselves and each other and open our arms to what. we're capable of, like what's next for us? And I feel like that's it. It's just that beautiful moment of acceptance and co-creation. I mean, you've nailed it with everything you've said. It just makes me feel like things are possible rather than the walls are closing in, which is how you can feel when you read the news or something. So that's beautiful. Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: For me, I think a lot of it is when we are in the spirit of hustle culture and that rat race, we're striving for what is always next. But to be mindful, I call it Christ consciousness. I write a lot about Christ consciousness in my book, but to be mindfully aware that sacredness is here, that that the spirit of God is here. Right now, that there is no striving. You don't have there's nothing that you have to do or pursue or do anything different in order to be right here and right now in the presence of the divine. And ironically, what I'm convinced of, I write this in my book, and it's a tool that I use in my own co creation, is that when we can align ourselves with that spirit of Christ consciousness and of being, of being aware of the sacredness in the here and now. Then we allow ourselves to intuit or to to just be more open to being guided by source. And that allows Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: us, that gives us insight and inspiration to co-create. So, you know, there's Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Hmm. Chantal McKinney: been multiple times where people are like, How are you doing it? How are you make doing all the things? And it's I'm not, it's not. Don't don't get me wrong, there are days that I work hard. And I'm Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: always taking a long walk in nature, and a lot of my insights come then, and I'm always making time to meditate, and my insights come then. So it's like I'm partnering with the creator in my rest and receiving intuition. So I think I think we've not yet fully understood how. co-creating what we need to for a beautiful future is actually easier when we are in alignment with like that spirit of ease and balance. Does that make sense? Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Abby: Well, yes. And it's, it's, it's radical. It Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Abby: is a type of beautiful protest to the hustle culture and the scarcity of Chantal McKinney: Absolutely. Abby: the current economy, which runs on scarce resources or creating a version of scarcity to get Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Abby: us into panic, to get us into competition with each other. And so to take a step back and to choose to rest, to choose to meditate, to choose to slow down is such a beautiful, radical choice. And it then Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: creates space both for the spirit and also for our higher cognitive processes to come online. Because when Chantal McKinney: I should have Abby: you're in fight or flight or that scarcity, you are running off of protecting me and mine and not thinking collectively. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: But when we can slow down, It opens up like, oh yeah, that's right. We're all in this together. And that person is my neighbor. My neighbor is my sister. And I can maybe go about this differently. And it just is very radical to rest. And it's feminine. Chelsea Henderson: It is. Chantal McKinney: Yeah, it's so beautiful. It's really gentle to even hear it. To even like hear Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: the to be a part of the conversation. It it's like soothing for my soul. I mean it's and it's Chelsea Henderson: Yes! Chantal McKinney: so it's so needed in this weary world that we are in right now. Chelsea Henderson: Well, okay, Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: that's something for me that's come up a few times that I wanted to talk to you a little bit, and this I think is a really interesting segue to that, is that... One of the things, okay, so I have a close relationship with my maternal grandmother. She's been Catholic her entire life. Her faith is very important to her. And she's also, I mean, she and I love to talk about St. Francis of Assisi and people like that within Catholicism and within Christianity and the history there. you know, it's about being your best self so we can be our best collective selves. that type of energy of forgiveness, yes, but also even just like love beyond the critical thinking of it, you know, just love for the sake of love. And yet there's these moments where the kind of structure of her faith will come through. And I find it really fascinating because I doing the embodied kind of divine feminine work. in the way that I do it, and I think the way a lot of us do it, and you talked about this a little, Chantal, is the... is acknowledging our shadow, right? Acknowledging that we are humans and humans have this spectrum. We are not all, you know, unicorns and rainbows and that is okay. That's a part of our experience. Abby: You Chelsea Henderson: And so I'm, you know, this came up a little, I think you mentioned it, but, and then my grandmother said this to me recently is, well, that's just the devil trying to get your, right? So this is something for me, having not grown up in Christianity, not having a a personal experience with it. What is that like? And the two of you, I'd love to hear what you both think. What is that like for you both kind of emerging into this new sense? Right? How do we bring the devil back into the conversation? My understanding is that the devil was once an angel and a beautiful angel in his time who didn't behave and was cast out and then all the things, right? And then now it's talked about as in this is like the thing we all need to avoid. But then when we're talking about this embodiment, this sense of presence that actually allows that co-creation with the divine, that allows us to really be fully in this experience, it seems like that needs to come along too, right? If I'm just trying to always be my most divine self, but it's 95 degrees out and my kid's not listening and I'm feeling stressed about a deadline, is that the devil coming in me, right? It has to be there. It has to And for me to try to push that away feels like I'm cutting off a part of my humanness. And so I would love to hear what y'all's experiences with that growing up in the Christian faith and then as we're kind of emerging into this time of the Spirit, this time of the divine feminine, the rebalancing, where does that fit in, in your eyes? Chantal McKinney: I I I will begin by acknowledging that to grow up in the Episcopal Church or in a lot of mainline religions, that's not our concept of the devil. And and the devil is Chelsea Henderson: Okay. Chantal McKinney: not thrown about in in ways like that at all. It's a very foreign concept to me to imagine that. And I don't think Chelsea Henderson: interesting. Chantal McKinney: that the everyday challenges of life in any way for me that it that is not descriptive of the devil. where I I I will s tell you how I feel and I cannot I cannot in in any way say that my denomination is there. This is just me. But for me the way I look at it is not really I don't have a fear of the devil, but I look at it as like God is light and that darkness is the absence of light. It's almost like darkness. Not that darkness is its own entity, it's that it's the absence of light. I like to look at it energetically. And Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: so I am into more of a non-dual understanding of God. I mean, I think it serves the church well for the church to claim that they are good and holy and that outside of the church it's not. And I think the church has benefited Abby: Right. Chantal McKinney: from that. And I I am on a journey of experiencing God most beautifully in the secular world and in the world in in the woods. in many places. And there is harm. There is like violence and things that have nothing to do with God in the world. So I'm not this is not like any naivety on my part, but I think the answer to the quote unquote darkness is to shine a light, is to bring a spirit of love and light there. so anyway, that's not this Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: that might not be the answer you were seeking, but it shows you how varying our theology is Abby: Absolutely. Cause very much. Chelsea Henderson: very, very much. Yeah. Abby: Yeah. I grew up with more of what you're talking about, Chelsea, which I just call what I grew up with generic Christian because we didn't have like, you would call it non-denominational, but other people who aren't in the church, I'm like, it's like the generic form. it's the Chantal McKinney: Love it. Abby: generic name for Adderall. No, I'm just kidding. Chelsea Henderson: haha Abby: We, I grew up with like, don't get like the devil was a person. The devil was a person and he was trying to knock you off your path of righteousness and to corrupt you. He's trying to, make you lust. He's trying to make you have sex outside of marriage. He's trying to get you pregnant. He's trying to, always be at your ear to try and dissuade you from following Jesus and from following the righteous path. That is like sort of the, narrative that I grew up with and that yeah, he was a person as much as Jesus is a person and that there's like these two dueling forces and yet at the same time within that like Jesus had beat the devil because Jesus was killed on the cross for our sins and like rose again and so he like defeated death and so then people would say well so the devil he's still roaming but he doesn't have any teeth like he can try and knock you off path, but like your soul is going to heaven because Jesus died for your sins. And like, this is the Christianity that I grew Chelsea Henderson: my goodness. It sounds scary. Abby: up with. So. For me, what I have kind of gotten to both in learning about secular physiology and psychology is that people were just trying to figure shit out with not much information. They're like, why do I have disease? Why is my kid sick, right? What did I do to... offend the gods? Why is there no rain on my crop? What did I do to offend the rain god? And these are people trying to figure out why the world freaking works when they have no science. And as we've Chelsea Henderson: mate. Abby: learned more about science and how things happen, I now believe it's closer to like what Chantal was speaking to of energy, because everything is energy. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: Everything is atom, atomic particles, energetic forces. I feel like even spiritual energy, is that like lower vibration, survival, competition, fear, scarcity. It doesn't feel good. It feels very gripping and tight and closed in. And then there's that higher, much lighter energy of love and passion and trust Trusting that it'll work out not gripping like this. It's like it's this energetic thing that's happening and so the devil For me is just what people were calling things that they didn't understand. It's what people were calling Forces that they didn't understand were happening But it's always, it is interesting when people use the devil still as like that's a person trying to knock you off the path versus for me, I'm like that is Abby in fear mode trying to protect herself. And when I can recognize that even like what's going on currently with my living situation and, and try and let go and breathe a little bit. And Jesus says, my, my burden is light. My path is easy. My burden is light. I mean, he talks all about loving your neighbor and loving yourself and being part of a community that lifts each other up. It's a more lightweight being. it's, it's complicated, the whole devil thing, Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: but that's just what I've understood it from it. Chelsea Henderson: But I like that you're both talking about energy, right? This is really just the, mean, Chantal, the shining the light on it, right? I mean, this is if something feels scary, if something feels out of reach, if something feels... You know, maybe kind of letting go of the idea that there's an inherent evil and rather it's just, we don't, we don't know cause it's in the dark, right? So we'll just shine a light on it. And, and to your point, Abby, just let that vibration rise. Right? I mean, this is, mean, Dr. Wayne Dyer talks about it and I just love that man so much. And it's just, you know, just get your vibration up, whatever you have to do. There's all these things. And that's the multidisciplinary approach to this in terms of spirituality is meditate, chant, walk in nature, connect with others, hug a friend, and get that vibration up. So maybe I was just curious because it just came up recently and I was like, gosh, I don't even know what to do with that. So I find that fascinating. Well, OK, so. Abby: Well, they used to call people who had seizures possessed, you know? So it's like, it's just this different understanding, Chelsea Henderson: Right, right. Abby: like, this is an evil spirit. And it's like, well, now we understand that was maybe a brain tumor pressing on his cerebellum and causing Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Right. Abby: these things. It's like, there's limited understanding. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: And so people put a name on it. That's my understanding of it, at least. Chantal McKinney: Yeah, for sure. Chelsea Henderson: We shone a light on it. We enlightened ourselves. We learned. Chantal McKinney: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: And I think as we wrap this up, would say, and Chantal, I would love to hear you speak to this, that's what you're following Jesus toward. You you're stepping outside the confines of what what patriarchy and what the pitfalls of our species has created around this beautiful divine source that we all come from. And you're seeing where that can lead us next. Does that resonate with you? Chantal McKinney: Yes, I think it's time to co-create the next paradigm, to walk toward it, to shine a light on that and to invite people toward that. And so that's what I'm doing. yeah, and it's funny we were talking about multiple religions and at the end of my book and the appendix, because the book spirals out at the very end is like quotes from indigenous faiths and world religions to kind of attune ourselves to the fact that it's one creator, right? At the end of it all, it's one creator. But yeah, Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Mmm. Chantal McKinney: it's ex it's exciting time to be alive and it's exciting time to stretch Chelsea Henderson: Yes! Chantal McKinney: our faith because it it is it is safe. It is safe to explore what is sacred beyond the boxes that we were raised with. It's good and sacred. It's holy work. That's holy work, right? Abby: It is holy work. Chelsea Henderson: Yes! Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yes, and the sacred is here with us in this moment. It's within us. I love that. I feel very inspired. I ordered your book and I can't wait to read it. Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I'm so grateful. I feel like I say this a lot in this work, Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls. We are gonna link it in the show notes. We will link it in the blog post that we write about this episode. We will link it in our in our resource catalog, on our website. We encourage anybody who is listening to this and finding interest on any level to read it. I think that the expansion that you're talking about happens in these conversations, happens in these moments of connection, happens in books like the one you've written, right? That it's taking in everything that exists, the different perspectives, the information that's being made available to us, and sorting it out. our own being and letting it settle and letting it exist. I mean that feels so potent to me and it feels like an opportunity. I will say I feel like this is growing for me but I am so grateful that you came on our show and that you exist. I mean I know that might sound a little silly but I just I feel like there was a Chantal McKinney: Bravo. Chelsea Henderson: moment in my life a couple years back where I felt like things were getting small. and tight and fear was coming in. And I think that's happening for a lot of folks and probably has consistently happened for a lot of folks. You being human can be really hard. So I feel grateful to be connected to just this growing community of women who are stepping into what is ours, what was our birthright and what is expanding for all of us and doing it for everyone. I'm really grateful that you came Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: here and talked to us and opened up and I want to stay in touch. I want to hear more about your story as it unfolds and when you write your next book, I want you to come back on and talk to us if you're willing. Abby: Hehehehehe Chelsea Henderson: I'm so excited about all of it and yeah. Chantal McKinney: Love that. I would totally love that. And thank you for your work. I mean, y'all are doing such sacred work yourselves and shining a light on these women and your all your own work that you're doing. It's incredible. This is our time indeed. Chelsea Henderson: Thank you. Gosh, that's Abby: Yes it is, yeah. Chelsea Henderson: amazing. Well, okay, Chantal McKinney, author of Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls. I feel like... I feel like there's so much more to talk about. We're going to have to try to get you to come back on at some point because I feel like there's just a mass of things to discover and explore here. For our membership, we're going to have a few more minutes to talk to Chantal and that'll be in the resource library for y'all. We are so grateful for you and for our listeners. And all the information on ways to connect with Chantal will be in the show notes and on our website and all over the place that we anywhere we put stuff, it'll be there. Ways to get to connect, read your your book, the work that you're doing if you're in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, beautiful town. I would say reach out and find ways to connect, because what you're doing is amazing and this is important work. It is our time. I'm so grateful you are here. Thank you to everyone and we will see you next time on the Modern Sacred Women's Work Podcast. Okay, and here's the time where we pretend like we're all done. And then let's just take, Abby: Hehehehe Chelsea Henderson: and since we're already in an hour and 10 minutes, we'll just keep this short, do 10 minutes. I have one question to ask you, but before we restart, is there anything that we didn't get to that felt really critical for you that you wanted to mention that we could bring up here? Chantal McKinney: As you were talking, I have a question. So I the work I'm doing with women that have been harmed, I have poured like hundreds of hours into this. This is like unpaid. Do you have you ever like shared a donation link? Like if someone wants to support the work? Like, do you ever do something like that? Okay. That would be amazing. That would be amazing. I've been trying so Chelsea Henderson: Yes, absolutely yes. Abby: Yeah, yeah, totally. We can do that. Yes. Yeah. Chantal McKinney: hard to get support. If and of course no one in the church is wanting to support it. It's really sad. But Chelsea Henderson: We would love to Abby: is sad. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: promote that and you know, Chantal McKinney: Yeah, that would be great. Cool. Chelsea Henderson: and we can kind of follow up an email and talk more about this, but what we're trying to grow is this collective where women like yourself feel Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: like they can come in and out of the space in ways that help to kind of grow and shine light on things. you know, we... any way that that strikes you, right? If there's an offering that you feel like you'd like to offer to our audience in the future, a workshop, a discussion, we could talk about that, we can link that, Abby: Thank you. Chelsea Henderson: we could promote that. I think it's really important that people understand that you've put all this time in. Chantal McKinney: Awesome. Yeah, I would love to talk more about what that looks like. Sorry. Chelsea Henderson: Okay. No, please, it's okay. It's okay. Abby: no, yeah, good. Chelsea Henderson: So yeah, let's... Chantal McKinney: You were it was silent on my enough time we were talking. Chelsea Henderson: It's okay. I'm not I'm gonna send Riverside an email and just say what's happening. Is this me? I mean, I have full connection here, but it just keeps being like You're not connected. I'm like I am connected. So I Will try to see if I can get this to fasten quicken up here Chantal McKinney: There was one part where you were talking a lot and I couldn't hear it, but I you had asked me a question, so I was trying to answer what I think you were asking. So if as you do your edits, if my response sounds like it's not connected to what you said, it's because I couldn't hear you. So I just wanted to like apologize in advance about that one part. I was like, I don't know what she's Chelsea Henderson: Gosh. Please no. That- Chantal McKinney: saying, but I'm gonna start talking. Chelsea Henderson: I'm so sorry, that's so stressful. Abby: Good job. Yeah, way to roll with it. Chelsea Henderson: You totally rolled with it. I didn't notice that at all. And Chantal McKinney: It's it's okay. Yeah, it's fine. Chelsea Henderson: I think what we could also do is just put a little, you know, just a little intro to this episode to just say, we are having connectivity issues. I just listened to a podcast Abby shared with me and then she did that at the beginning and they had to switch gears. So I think it happens a lot and no worries. So. Well, okay, so then let's do a couple more minutes. And then what we'll do is we'll follow up an email to get a link to that and different ways that we could share that with our audience and different ways Chantal McKinney: that'd be great. Chelsea Henderson: where we could kind of help you. You our goal is to just Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: all help each other really with all this work that we're doing. So awesome. Okay. Chantal McKinney: I love that. That's awesome. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Work collaboratively and lift each other up. Yeah. Yay. Chantal McKinney: I love that. That's awesome. Chelsea Henderson: Okay, so then I'm gonna... Abby: Okay. You had a question, Chelsea, and then I have a question too. Chelsea Henderson: Okay, I'm gonna mark us and we're back. I love this. I love this moment. Well, Chantal, thank you for that amazing interview. Everything you said, I feel expanded, which is always the goal here, right? The conversation is to share with each other. We really aim to be non-prescriptive in this space. And so I really love learning through sharing and through talking and having these conversations. So I'm really grateful for you coming here and just being just so eloquent and vulnerable and open. I would love in this moment for our members, the thing that I want to kind of get your feelings on and even just kind of some maybe like more kind of logistical advice on, the thing that I've always seen with church in particular, in the organized institutional element of the religion is the structure and the community. And so for folks, and that was for me growing up, the thing that I envied, right, that we didn't have. Like we had our community and these different elements that would kind of mark and... and order our life and our family. And that was beautiful to me. But my friends had went to church every Sunday and had these holidays that they experienced. I thought that was so cool and so beautiful. So I'm curious as you're working with folks that have left that institutional element and are still obviously feeling very spiritually connected. Are there ways that you are coaching them on recreating that? I think that One of the things that I'm noticing in this moment with all of our technology and advancement in this hustle culture, as you talk about the busyness, is that people are getting more more isolated. That's what we're finding in our work. And I think that the church offers so much as an antidote to that. So if you leave that behind, are there ways that you're coaching folks on reestablishing that for themselves? And even if we're thinking about speaking to our membership, like ways that as women working in the divine feminine and embodiment, which is not necessarily typical traditional, there's not like a church to go to for that as easily. How can we create this for ourselves and in our little micro communities? Chantal McKinney: that's such a great question. I'm actually due to post a free resource on my website about starting circles. But for me, the answer or like the question that I would say back is like, what does it look like to start a circle and to start it small with people that you trust that you can have conversations with that are meaningful? loving spiritual that are embodied right that that that what does it look like to to gather people that you love together and to say what does it look like to have a gathering whether it's once a month or twice a month and what are we doing? Are we having a potluck? Are we having a bonfire? Like what are we talking about? Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: And are we sharing resources? Are we sharing stories? Are we sharing stories of transformation? Like to co create a circle. And I think circles are the antidote to that siloing and the isolation that we see in our capitalistic Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: society. So I do actually hope to share some free resources about how to start circles locally. but that's what we've done here in Winston. We started a circle that named itself Oasis and it met in the family room, in the family room of a good friend, and people would bring their lunch if they wanted to and the host just put out some beverages and maybe like some nuts or mints or something and we all would go around and share about our lives and sometimes we share a video or a song or a resource and sometimes people would share a healing modality. So there's it's really beautiful and it's authentic because you're when you're committing to showing up for the same people in a regular schedule, you really become close knit. You end up praying for one another, supporting Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: one another in your journeys. And then for me a key aspect is always not only that it's about us indiv you know, there's our own personal connection with the divine, there's the circle connection, but then what are we doing for the wider community? How are we, how are we serving Chelsea Henderson: Right. Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: those that are in need? That feels like a critical component to me. Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Chantal McKinney: so that's what I that's what I think. And I do intend to like add that free resource on my website. So just this conversation Abby: nice. Chantal McKinney: is nudging me toward that. Thank you for that. Chelsea Henderson: I love it. if you do that, please, when you do that, please send it to us and we will share it because I think that's, that's Chantal McKinney: Yeah. And I would Chelsea Henderson: powerful. Chantal McKinney: and I'd be glad to come back and do a little almost like a workshop or co interactive conversation about that topic Chelsea Henderson: Yes! Chantal McKinney: because I do think it's really critical that we form the co create the communities that we want to be a part of. Chelsea Henderson: I love that, because Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I feel like I have, I am a person who always. It's just in my nature. Come over for dinner. Let's all get together. Those friends and those friends should be friends. And I don't take that for granted that that's something that comes naturally to me. There are a lot of people that I know that that's not part of their person. That's not part of who they are this lifetime. And for them, it feels a lot more challenging. So I Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: love the idea of just giving some kind of practical feedback on like, here are ways to just get this started. Because the worst thing for Abby: Hmm? Chelsea Henderson: a human is to be without other humans. So I think that's something that like is just a beautiful way to augment. Chantal McKinney: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And it can just it can just start it can just start with like two or three people and then say, Well, who who do we want to Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Chantal McKinney: add? Who needs to be added? I mean, I was just talking to someone the other day that was like, I'm going to church and it's doing nothing for me. And the only reason I'm going is because I'm lonely. And you know, but she was like Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Chantal McKinney: acknowledging that I've expanded beyond it. It does not serve me in any way, but I am lonely and I just Abby: yeah. Yeah. Yup. mean, even Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's hard. Abby: Chelsea and I working together has been so great because we both try, like did business solo for a little while. And then we met at like a women's, empowerment Chantal McKinney: Nein. Abby: center and we met in a book club and then over, you know, developed a deep friendship. And then we're like, let's do a podcast. then, but us working every Wednesday, Chelsea and I work. Chelsea Henderson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Abby: We work on things. We spend a lot of it talking about life and what's going on and just having a regular scheduled connection with someone else, Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: which is what church was, you know, was a regular scheduled time for connection. And, Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: yeah, just finding different ways to do that. And we have like our monthly women's circle called witnessed, which we do, you know, where it's just, again, it's not prescriptive. It's not us saying here's how you should be or giving advice. It's how's everybody doing? It's that circling up and yeah, Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: I just love that. Yes. I feel like that's the Chelsea Henderson: I love it. Abby: solution. Yeah. Chantal McKinney: Beautiful. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, it really is. Abby: Okay. The question that I have for you is something Chelsea and I kind of chatted about when we were thinking about questions to ask you. what is it about Jesus particularly that keeps you Chelsea Henderson: Great question. Abby: on this path with Jesus after all the expansion and all of the other modalities and other spiritualities, what makes Jesus continue to be intriguing and unique for you? Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Chantal McKinney: I don't have one answer. I don't have like the one thing, but I'll share with you a few things because I could just like start rambling. But there is an incredible paradox about Jesus that to me is the paradox of life. he was born in like a stinky manger with animals because he was rejected at the end. Like from the very beginning, he He came into the world. God came into the world on the ground in a stinky barn with animals. And the first people that heard the news of his birth were shepherds who were outcasts in society. They were like, you know, maybe not quite prostitutes, but pretty much like the low, the scum of of society for jobs. And so from the very beginning, God's message was like, sacredness is here too. And that is so powerful to me. And Chelsea Henderson: Ha! Chantal McKinney: when I mean like right there, right? Like that's so I love that. I could just stop right there and be Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: like, that's why, like he's my guy. and Chelsea Henderson: That's amazing. Chantal McKinney: so the paradoxes Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: keep coming. Like, right, he he suffered and died and yet and yet was resurrected. Like it didn't stop him. And it there was there's a self emptying to him. every time he gave of himself in love, he was filled up again with with from God. He would there's actually I love that he you he would go away to pray. He would leave the masses, leave the crowds, go away to pray, then come back and do these beautiful miracles. Like he he just like he I love wa wa I mean it's funny to say watching how he did it, but you read it and you can see like he pulls away and goes into the silence and then comes back. And transforms the world for good. And Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: so he just like, Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: I don't know, when to read I often recommend like a pivotal change in my life was in college. I had grown up when you grow up in the church, you hear little snippets of the Bible on Sunday morning. A little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit. But I had an assignment in college in like a New Testament class to like just pick a gospel and read it. And I sat down with like my highlighter and my chair in my apartment and I just read it. And I was like, holy shit, I'm in love. Like I I actually thought I wanted to be a nun. I except that I was boy crazy. I was like, what do I do with this? Like I Abby: So did I. Same! Chantal McKinney: I loved a date. my God, this guy is amazing. Like I was totally ahead over heels. I was like shiver bumped every time I was like open up the gospels to read. I was like, my body was like shiver bumps. Like, I don't know how to explain it, but it was like Abby: Yep. Chantal McKinney: a holy thing w that I was like every part of my body knew that I was reading just incredibly sacred words of like this man in the flesh embodied what God wants us all to do. And and Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: and I love it. And story after story he loves the least and the lost and the last and the looked over. And Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: That's what I want my life to be about. Like I you right? It's just it's incredible. Abby: Yep. Chelsea Henderson: That is incredible. Chantal McKinney: I could keep going. But like I did but the paradox Abby: Thank you. I know. Chantal McKinney: it's it's the paradox. And so the and so I guess the Abby: Yep. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: only other thing I'll add is like when I was severely harmed, I was in trauma. I was diagnosed with PTSD after the abuse that I endured and I was on short term disability even. I was on medication to get through the day. I was a freaking mess. after my time in the church and my lens it was as though someone took a baseball bat and just shattered every concept Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: of church I had. I saw a very dark part of the church. And it was in that lowness. And I say this in my book, I it was as low as you could get. but it was in that surrender of like I can't do this. Like I'm I need medication to get through the day. I need my in my my incredible mother in law to help me with my four and my two year old because I'm so mentally like h hurt. I'm nothing. I'm I have a shattered worldview of church. I don't know if I'll ever be a priest again. I had nothing. And it was there that it's like in my surrender I needed God to live. And it was it was the role of Jesus I would say that kind of the thing that stayed with me was like if Jesus can heal if Jesus is for the outcast then Jesus is for me. And if Jesus Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: can like heal the sick, then Jesus can help me. And if Jesus can raise people from the dead, then Jesus can help me. And so that became my refrain. So I would wake up at like five in the morning. I had I'm looking at f yeah I had Louise Hayes book, You Can Heal Your Life and the Bible. And I would wake up Chelsea Henderson: I love her. Abby: Mm. Chantal McKinney: at like Five in the morning before my four year old would wake up and I would like pray and do affirmations and the const I would read the parts of scripture to remind myself that Jesus came for the outcast and that was me. Because I had been totally rejected by my church. I could not even shop at the grocery store on my side of town because the lovely Christians judged me sh so harshly. Abby: Right? Chantal McKinney: for coming forward for to to report harassment. That's Chelsea Henderson: God. Chantal McKinney: how our that's how great the church is, right? But like it Chelsea Henderson: Gosh. Chantal McKinney: was it was the liberating stories that Jesus came for, the least of these that I told myself, like, hey, I'm I'm a I'm worthy of that. Like he came for people like Abby: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: me and that's where I'm at now. And like Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna come back. Like I there right. So it's just Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: like he's so he's so liberating. to me. I mean he Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: literally saved me. Ironically, right, in progressive Abby: Right. Chelsea Henderson: Ha! Chantal McKinney: in prove progressive circles, I wouldn't be like, yeah, I've been saved, but like I got saved. I mean I was I Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: was a mess. I was a mess and I was pulled back up again. And so yeah. Abby: Mmm. Chantal McKinney: There's my answer. Abby: Chantal Chelsea Henderson: gosh, that's beautiful. okay. It is. Abby: is beautiful. And that is so Jesus. That is so Jesus because Chantal McKinney: Yeah. yeah. Abby: I love the quote. I don't know who it is, but he's a God with dirt under his fingernails. Remember someone said that and it's like, Chantal McKinney: Yes. Love that. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Abby: and just how Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Abby: with your experience with the church and coming forward and then the church people being like, hey, you know, turning on you and everything like that's what happened to Jesus too. And Chantal McKinney: Yeah, it is. Abby: You know, like to follow Jesus is so not easy, usually as easy as people think it is when you look and you read the scripture for yourself and you see Chantal McKinney: No, it's hard. Abby: how he lived and what he talks about and that he was murdered for standing up against corruption and speaking out and standing up for the marginalized and It's a very radical, beautiful path. And yet there's so much spiritual water to drink from as well. Like he talks about that well is deep. Once you can connect to, would rather speak out for truth and lose everything. There is like this deep well that can come of this Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Abby: living water, like he talks about. And it's so true of experience that as well, there's like this living deep water that, Jesus just, he feels like he's right in it with you when you are Chantal McKinney: Huh. Abby: walking the steps. Chantal McKinney: It is like very the stage I'm in and I keep telling myself it won't always be here is like I'm speaking out on social media very outwardly about the women that are coming forward and men that have been harmed in the church. And it's hard. I mean it's I'm it's like, you know, you run the risk of facing persecution again. it's not it's really hard. I've Abby: Yep. Very hard. Chantal McKinney: certainly risking getting kicked out of my own church just for like shining a light on the abuse. It's not, it's just not easy. but like he did it, right? So I can just follow him Abby: Mm-hmm. Chantal McKinney: and know that I'm not alone in that. So yeah, he's amazing. Abby: Yeah. Chantal McKinney: And and Chelsea, I mean I I issue this invitation for anybody that it's like if you don't this is this is an invitation for anyone. If you've never that was the most powerful assignment I got in college. It's like just like pick pick a chapter. Luke ha the gospel of Luke happens to like have more emphasis on women and children. Like it's not all about the men in the story, but it's more in inclusive. But like to read read one gospel all the way th way through. And it's just it is really cool. It's a cool and just to be open. Abby: Hmm. Chantal McKinney: Like listen to be open. It's really cool. Yeah. Abby: It is really cool. sacred work and we are here Chantal McKinney: Yeah. Abby: to support you as well. Chantel, you're doing Chantal McKinney: Same like Abby: very brave work and you know, there, yeah, there's been people that I have deeply looked up to in the church that have come out to have been abusers and that experience is so eyeopening and we are here to support you in your work and in what you're doing, even energetically. energetically when you're posting on social media, when you are doing the work to speak out for these women know that modern sacred supports you. And if you are ever needing a platform, if you want to do a workshop or if you want to do some kind of something where you're wanting to share a platform. So I find that with women and women's nervous Chantal McKinney: Yeah. I would love to. I mean let's just count on doing that at some point. Abby: systems. Yeah, I'm learning with nirvans women's nervous systems. We love to work together. And we do really well working together and it creates this sense of safety for us that we are in it, not alone. So we are here to support you in. Yeah. Chantal McKinney: it's beautiful. Let's just say yes and we're gonna make it happen. I love that. Abby: Wonderful. Chantal McKinney: an honor to be here with you all. Thank you. Abby: Thank you.