Latest / Make Water Work Podcast / Shellie Chard: Building Better Water Policy | Make Water Work 026

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Shellie Chard: Building Better Water Policy | Make Water Work 026 · Make Water Work Podcast

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There was an huge fish kill in uh what's
0:04
now known as the Oklahoma River. And I
0:06
went to the water director at that time.
0:10
John, oh my gosh, this is a tragedy.
0:14
There's a fish kill in the Canadian
0:17
River. And and he said, "Well, that is
0:19
great news. What do you mean that that's
0:22
not great news?" He said, "Four or five
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years ago, there weren't enough fish to
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kill in that river. about water body
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today is an Olympic training center for
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rowing and kaying and it will be hosting
0:37
those water sports in the LA 28
0:40
Olympics.
0:42
>> Welcome to the Make Water Work podcast
0:44
where we dive into the people, ideas,
0:46
and innovation shaping the future of
0:49
water. I'm your host, Isaac Pellerin,
0:51
and alongside my co-host, Megan Glover,
0:54
the founder of 120 Water, we bring you
0:57
insights from hundreds of incredible
0:59
conversations we've had over the past 9
1:02
years with inspiring and energizing
1:04
leaders in the water industry. Each
1:07
week, we share those stories and
1:09
conversations with entrepreneurs,
1:11
community champions, and innovators who
1:13
are making water work for everyone.
1:16
Whether you're a water professional, a
1:18
curious innovator, or simply passionate
1:20
about our most precious resource, this
1:23
podcast is for you. Let's get started.
1:27
Well, welcome to the Make Waterwork
1:28
podcast where we celebrate the leaders,
1:31
innovators, and servants who are making
1:33
water work for everyone. And so, we have
1:36
a wonderful guest today. Megan, tell us
1:39
who we get the honor of talking to
1:41
today.
1:42
>> Yes. So, today we've got a wonderful
1:44
guest. Uh it is Shelley Shard and uh
1:48
Shelley it's wonderful to have you here
1:50
today. She is the current president of
1:52
the uh collaborative uh environmental
1:55
solutions but most recently as of a few
1:57
months ago um just retired for a 34y
2:01
year career um at the Oklahoma
2:03
Department of Environmental Quality
2:05
where she retired as the water quality
2:07
division director. So, um I've had the
2:10
pleasure of uh getting to know Shelley
2:12
um over the last year and just every
2:14
conversation that I have with Shelley, I
2:16
learn more about her, um expertise and
2:19
just knowledge of this industry and it
2:21
really is vast and it is deep and um I'm
2:23
just so excited that she would share
2:25
some of her um important time with us
2:27
today. So, welcome Shelley.
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>> Hello. I'm so happy to be here with you
2:32
today.
2:33
>> Yes. Well, we are happy to have you here
2:35
on the podcast and as we always like to
2:38
uh start the conversation. Um, how did
2:41
water find you?
2:44
>> Well, water definitely found me. It was
2:47
not something that said, "Ooh, I want to
2:49
do this." But as I've reflected over the
2:52
years, I've always kind of been a beach
2:54
girl. Um, that's my happy place. Toes in
2:58
the sand, ocean waves, the ocean breeze.
3:02
Uh but you know I grew up in a family
3:06
that is very um medical and education
3:10
focused. Um lots of teachers, doctors,
3:14
nurses, pharmacists
3:16
and you know it's like that's not me.
3:19
>> Um and so I decided engineering was for
3:23
me. So, I went down that path and uh got
3:28
my degree in chemical engineering and
3:30
biotechnology
3:32
and then had the um opportunity to go to
3:36
work for the state of Oklahoma water
3:39
resources board.
3:41
Um
3:43
I had a boyfriend. He was in Oklahoma
3:46
City. He wasn't leaving. So, how could I
3:50
possibly leave?
3:52
Um, so I took the job at the water
3:55
resources board working on clean water
3:57
act things and I loved it.
4:00
>> Oh wow.
4:01
>> Ultimately got rid of the boy, found my
4:04
career,
4:06
>> kept what matters.
4:08
>> You know, it's it was meant to be um
4:11
just not the direction I thought. Um and
4:14
so uh just a few months into my job at
4:18
the water resources board um the state
4:21
created a new agency and that was the
4:23
department of environmental quality. So,
4:26
I was one of its first employees
4:29
and I decided, you know, maybe I didn't
4:34
want to just work with industries
4:37
and my boss, chief engineer,
4:42
um like I got a deal for you. Welcome to
4:45
municipal water.
4:47
>> And that was really kind of my home for
4:51
a really long time. I loved that.
4:54
Um, and he was a person that uh was very
4:59
old school and he liked kind of he
5:03
didn't type, so somebody had to type
5:05
things. He didn't really,
5:08
you know, speak in front of public
5:11
really well, but he was great
5:13
technically. And he was always asked is
5:17
can does somebody want to whatever it
5:21
is? And so I said yes when asked.
5:26
And so then he said okay well since
5:29
you've read all this since you filed all
5:31
this since you kind of have an
5:33
understanding of all of this come with
5:35
me to this meeting.
5:38
Come meet this EPA person. Come sit
5:42
beside me in this big room. Listen,
5:45
learn. And then it was I don't need to
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go. You do this. you got it.
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>> I love that.
5:53
>> And so I morphed more into a policy
5:56
person at that time and ultimately um
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landed in 2010 as the water director
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and had the opportunity to work with
6:08
many state, regional, national,
6:11
international organizations.
6:13
Um so you know some people say it's luck
6:17
when those things happen and a certain
6:19
amount of it is. My boss could have been
6:21
a jerk, but he wasn't.
6:22
>> Right. Right. Yes.
6:24
>> Um, and so it really just launched into
6:27
a passion that I didn't recognize I had
6:30
until I was an adult.
6:32
>> Yes. Yeah. And I think Shelley, that is
6:35
such a good example of um of secession,
6:40
the right type of secession planning and
6:42
putting people in the room so they can
6:45
maybe um have exposure to things that
6:48
they otherwise wouldn't. and and you are
6:50
a perfect example of how that led you
6:52
into, you know, a career you didn't even
6:55
know possible, right? Because you were
6:56
put in the room and
6:58
>> Absolutely.
6:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the
7:01
things um you know, we don't do enough
7:03
is bring young leaders in the room to
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have or have exposure to those
7:08
conversations that then may lead to
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paths where you just don't even know
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where it may take you.
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>> Absolutely. And you know, I'm still in
7:15
touch with that first um true mentor. Um
7:21
and you know, he was at my retirement
7:24
party and um all the things and it was
7:28
so fun, you know, getting to talk about
7:30
because I know how I saw things unfold,
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but it was really nice to hear him and
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he said, "Well, I was like, why?" You
7:40
know, why me? Why not 20 others? And he
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said, "Well, I asked and you said yes."
7:47
>> Wow.
7:47
>> No.
7:48
>> Okay. Note to self. Say yes more often.
7:52
>> Say yes more often. Yeah.
7:53
>> Yeah. Yeah.
7:54
>> That's awesome. Yeah.
7:55
>> I mean, seriously, congratulations on
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the 34 years at DEQ. Like, what an
8:02
accomplishment. but also more of a
8:03
reflection of um the impact that you
8:06
that you had not just for Oklahoma but
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for um really the whole country. Um and
8:13
I would love if you could walk us
8:14
through um the evolution of what you
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experienced in the industry throughout
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your time at DEEQ. Um a lot of
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regulation uh
8:24
>> shifts in 34 years. Yeah.
8:26
>> Yeah. Um yes. I mean, so much change.
8:31
Um, you know, one of the kind of random
8:34
things that again, as I was thinking
8:36
about it, I was the only female in the
8:40
room for so much of my career. Um,
8:45
wastewater,
8:47
it's still very uh maledominated.
8:50
Drinking water is kind of evened out.
8:52
But so that's an interesting shift just
8:55
to watch happen. Why did it happen?
8:58
Well, all kinds of reasons, but just
9:01
interesting to see it. Um, one of my
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favorite stories that I always tell if
9:08
somebody asks me, you know, how would
9:10
you illustrate, you know, the changes in
9:13
our approach to water or environment and
9:16
those sorts of things. And this was I
9:19
was,
9:21
you know, 22, 23 years old. I was um new
9:27
and excited and interested in learning
9:30
all of these things, but mostly I was
9:33
young and knew nothing.
9:35
>> Yeah.
9:36
>> Young and knew nothing.
9:37
>> And you know, got the phone call.
9:40
There's an huge fish kill in uh what's
9:45
now known as the Oklahoma River. It was
9:46
the Canadian River at that time at that
9:48
point in time. And I went to the water
9:52
director at that time and John, oh my
9:56
gosh, this is a tragedy. There's a fish
9:59
kill in the Canadian River. And and he
10:02
said, "Well, that is great news."
10:06
>> Okay,
10:07
>> what what do you mean that that's not
10:09
great news? He said, "Four or five years
10:11
ago, there weren't enough fish to kill
10:13
in that river."
10:14
>> Oh my gosh.
10:16
>> I was like, "Oh, okay. That's a
10:19
different perspective.
10:21
Um, not to minimize the fact that, okay,
10:24
we've got to figure out where the spill
10:25
came from and what happened, but that
10:27
water body today
10:30
>> is an Olympic training center for rowing
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and kayaking. Wow.
10:36
>> And it will be hosting
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um those water sports in the LA 28
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Olympics. Oklahoma is part of that. Um
10:46
because we have one of the best venues
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in the world.
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>> That's awesome.
10:50
>> And it's in a river that
10:54
somewhere in the 40 years ago was so
10:57
polluted there were no fish.
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And
11:02
30 years ago, we were still having fish
11:05
kills, but there were at least fish to
11:08
kill. and now it's this unbelievable
11:12
water sport training facility and it's
11:15
open to the public and there all these
11:16
great things. So, I think that's
11:18
something that is super exciting that
11:21
I've gotten to watch kind of in my
11:23
backyard um unfold over time.
11:27
And I think one of the most unsettling
11:32
evolutions that I have watched and
11:35
experienced over the last 30 years um is
11:39
the degradation of trust. M
11:43
>> um well I read it on the internet so it
11:46
must be true and all water is going to
11:50
kill us all from whatever contaminant or
11:54
you know whatever bacteria whatever uh
11:57
potential disease. Oh, we have to drink
11:59
bottled water because our water's not
12:02
safe. And while admittedly there are
12:04
areas in this country where that is a
12:06
true statement, the vast majority that's
12:09
not accurate.
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>> Yeah. Mhm.
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>> And as we see some of the testing coming
12:14
out on some of the bottled water, we're
12:17
seeing higher levels of PAS. We're
12:20
seeing higher levels of micro and
12:22
nanoplastics.
12:24
And you know, that's you know to be
12:28
overly dramatic
12:30
soul crushing. Uh you know it's
12:34
that's not how it should be. And
12:39
I think that is one of the biggest
12:42
changes I've seen and that's a challenge
12:45
we have got to resolve or improve.
12:50
>> Um so I mean those are a few of the
12:52
things I guess I would say are kind of
12:54
some significant changes over three
12:57
decades.
12:57
>> Yeah. Fascinating. That kind of makes me
12:59
think of, you know, the in those, you
13:04
know, if we think about the past three
13:05
to four decades
13:07
as as the internet came into existence
13:10
and as information can um be discovered
13:13
and then misinformation can be um can be
13:17
moved through very quickly. I I also am
13:20
just thinking about some of the impact
13:22
of regulations like the lead and copper
13:25
revisions or the some or the CCR some of
13:28
the other that are saying hey the the
13:31
combating of that is more transparency
13:34
more upfront frequent communication
13:37
built into some of the policies.
13:41
>> Yeah, absolutely. And you know
13:45
being a regulator for so many years you
13:48
run and hide is you know sometimes a
13:51
defense strategy uh when you're
13:54
constantly you have state legislators
13:58
maybe you know your congressional
14:00
delegation are unhappy with you uh
14:04
because you're being too hard
14:07
restrictive whatever. And then you have
14:10
the general public and maybe a subset of
14:12
the medical community or maybe a
14:14
community action group are yelling at
14:17
you for the same issue but because
14:19
you're not doing enough. And it's, you
14:22
know, how do you find that middle ground
14:25
um without just wanting to bury your
14:27
head in the sand? And I honestly I think
14:30
to a certain extent some of that has
14:32
happened.
14:33
>> Maybe not full-blown, but at some point
14:38
the regulators lost control of the
14:40
narrative.
14:41
>> Interesting.
14:42
>> Because it's well if I do a podcast
14:46
where I talk about how many lead and
14:48
copper sample violation we've had, well,
14:51
people are going to think it's bad.
14:53
People are going to be upset. They're
14:54
going to be all these things. So maybe
14:56
if we be quiet,
14:59
nobody's going to be talking about it
15:00
and he'll be fine. He'll be fine.
15:02
>> And in reality, the people who really
15:06
know and understand aren't doing a lot
15:09
of the talking. And so the narrative
15:11
gets filled in. Um, as an example, we
15:17
had a near riot on our hands because a
15:21
town in Iowa had the same name as a town
15:25
in Oklahoma. The town in Iowa had issued
15:30
um a boil water notice.
15:33
And the people in northeast Oklahoma
15:36
were up in arms because we had not done
15:41
enough outreach and education for them
15:42
to understand what was wrong with their
15:44
water.
15:45
>> And finally
15:47
>> somebody sent us a screenshot
15:50
and it finally one of the big news
15:53
stations was like the notice is for a
15:56
town in Iowa. That's why we were silent.
16:00
This is not
16:02
>> that's why you were like
16:03
>> our issue
16:04
>> not taking any action. How dare you not
16:06
take action for the different state.
16:09
>> Oh my gosh. Yeah.
16:10
>> You know there's a lot that you know
16:12
it's very unfortunate that
16:15
>> the people in the no
16:18
>> let it go relinquished got it taken
16:21
away. Whatever it is but lost control.
16:23
It's it's it's really interesting that
16:26
you bring that up because um you know
16:28
we've had a guest on the show previously
16:30
that talked about just the need they're
16:32
they're nearing retirement within the
16:34
next you know few years and um on this
16:36
mission to bring more humanity to the
16:38
job because they're like in in their 30
16:42
years they've seen a lot more
16:44
divisiveness
16:46
in in the water like you can't please
16:48
everybody and so then the status quo
16:50
becomes well I'm just going to please no
16:52
one you know what I I mean it and and
16:53
and you kind of illustrated that like
16:55
from a regular's point of view that if I
16:57
can't, you know, saying nothing
16:59
sometimes is the the best answer to a
17:04
lose-lose situation. Uh perhaps, but has
17:07
it always been that way?
17:10
>> Um
17:13
I think it's always been a little bit
17:16
that way.
17:17
>> I think the magnifying glass has gotten
17:20
significantly bigger.
17:21
>> Got it. Um, I think as we've seen a
17:25
shift in state and national approach to
17:30
politics,
17:32
um, we regardless of which side you're
17:35
on, it's incredibly charged and we have
17:39
to have a bad guy.
17:41
>> Got it.
17:42
>> We can no longer have a bad situation we
17:46
need to resolve.
17:48
You know, it was I can remember one of
17:52
my staff saying to me when, you know,
17:54
there'd been a spill and there are
17:56
multiple agencies and people involved.
17:59
It's like, you know, whatever the
18:01
briefing time is, he's well, I guess we
18:03
have a disaster to blame on somebody
18:06
this afternoon.
18:07
>> Shoot.
18:08
>> And you know, it was sin, you know, with
18:11
in, you know, being sarcastic but
18:14
recognizing the reality. This was not
18:17
going to be
18:20
why did the pipe break. It's going to be
18:23
it's your pipe. It's broken. You caused
18:26
it. You know, as opposed to
18:30
>> the pipe is broken. There are concerns.
18:33
Here are the human health concerns. Here
18:35
are the environmental concerns. What are
18:36
we going to do before we can get it
18:38
fixed? Uh so I think that's definitely
18:41
something that has shifted and become a
18:45
lot more difficult to deal with.
18:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. We just can't accept that
18:49
bad things happen and we're going to
18:51
work our darnest to fix it. It's who
18:53
created who created that thing and how
18:55
can I put their head on the chopping
18:56
block which is
18:57
>> Yeah. And it's put you in a position
18:59
where from a like shaping regulation to
19:02
just how how thoughtful um you have to
19:06
be in in building policy frameworks um
19:10
and those kind of things. And I'm kind
19:12
of curious like if there are any um
19:14
moments that stick out to you at in your
19:16
time at at DEEQ um yeah like what what
19:20
kind of rises to the top and things at
19:22
the forefront.
19:24
Well, again, it's something that I will
19:27
say, you know, every state has their own
19:29
approach, you know, to how they develop
19:31
regulations.
19:32
Um, and you know, that's shaped either
19:34
in a constitution or in legislation. Um,
19:38
one thing that I think Oklahoma really
19:41
got right when the agency was formed
19:44
back in 1993
19:47
is, uh, you know, you have the staff who
19:50
do the work, but we also had an advisory
19:55
council
19:56
>> that is appointed,
19:58
um, equally by the Senate pro Tim, the
20:01
speaker of the house and the governor.
20:03
They have staggered terms. um they
20:06
represent key areas um of regulation. So
20:11
for example, the water quality
20:13
management advisory council has
20:17
small rural water
20:20
um an certified operator
20:23
um agriculture,
20:26
municipal government, you so all of
20:28
these experts that you know it's people
20:32
who are doing this work all day every
20:34
day. Yeah, that's right.
20:36
>> And then those people meet a minimum of
20:41
three to four times a year. They're
20:43
looking at what are the regulations that
20:45
are being proposed by the staff.
20:48
Sometimes it's merely adopting the
20:50
federal by reference, but a lot of times
20:54
it's this has been a problem. Um we had
20:59
minimum chlorine levels on the drinking
21:01
water side which on the federal level is
21:05
just a recommendation but we had issues.
21:08
So this is how we address issues. U we
21:10
have construction standards but this
21:13
group of experts they can either
21:17
recommend it to the next level.
21:21
They can send it back to the staff. They
21:23
can say no. they can appoint a work
21:27
group who works with the staff to try to
21:29
develop appropriate regulations and once
21:33
they recommend it goes to another body
21:37
the environmental quality board
21:39
>> okay
21:40
>> they can hire and fire and set salary of
21:43
the executive director
21:45
>> and approve rules that's all they do
21:48
they don't do any permitting enforcement
21:51
nothing
21:52
>> but these are small five-year
21:55
appointments. There are environmental
21:57
organizations. There are large quantity
22:00
water users, municipal rural water, oil
22:04
and gas, agriculture,
22:06
and they review our rules in Oklahoma to
22:11
say yes. Um, we have laboratory
22:16
representatives.
22:18
uh and you know so it's all of these
22:20
things questions that come from those
22:24
organizations from those bodies are
22:28
exactly what you mentioned how much is
22:31
this going to cost to comply
22:33
>> right
22:34
>> what is the benefit of this what are is
22:38
the detriment and
22:42
before they can vote there are anywhere
22:46
from
22:48
two to five or six public hearings or
22:52
public meetings. They may be formal with
22:56
a court reporter or it may be we're
22:59
going to be at the Tulsa Water Plant
23:02
Auditorium.
23:04
Come listen. Come share.
23:05
>> That's neat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Come see
23:08
that. H That's Yeah, that's smart. I
23:11
guess I I didn't have full appreciation
23:12
for all of the stakeholders at the table
23:14
as you're making decisions and and
23:16
inputs and uh that is really smart. That
23:19
is a really smart way to design that.
23:21
Yeah. So, you've in addition to your um
23:25
your long-standing career in Oklahoma, I
23:28
think we'd be remiss if we didn't touch
23:29
on you've been a very active leader in
23:32
our industry in in general. So, um,
23:35
serving in prestigious positions
23:37
including as a WE trustee, um, as
23:40
president. You're a current member of
23:42
the National Drinking Water Advisory
23:44
Council and the Groundwater Protection
23:46
Council. Um, just I guess what have the
23:50
participation in these roles kind of
23:52
meant to you? And I think what have you
23:53
kind of taken away um, you know, from
23:56
this participation and either put into
23:59
your uh, role at DEEQ or just as a
24:01
professional in water?
24:04
Yeah. So, um I mentioned early on about,
24:08
you know, the first chief engineer that
24:10
I worked closely with. He was very
24:13
active um with some of these
24:16
organizations in the background on some
24:18
of the committees, that sort of thing.
24:20
And he really pushed me, you know,
24:22
figure out where your interests lie and
24:25
get involved.
24:27
>> And so, again, that's one of those when
24:30
someone says do this, you say yes. and
24:32
figure out what yes means later. Um, so
24:36
you know things like ASDA, the
24:38
Association of State Drinking Water
24:40
Administrators, the counterpart
24:42
Association of Clean Water
24:44
Administrators, you know, those are the
24:46
state regulators who are trying to deal
24:50
with whatever it is, whether it's a new
24:54
federal rule, guidance,
24:57
uh, whatever it is. Uh, so those
25:00
organizations really allowed me to sit
25:04
around a table and talk to the people
25:08
who do what I do. Um, we could talk
25:12
about our experience, what was good,
25:14
what was bad, share some lessons
25:16
learned, so we didn't all have to learn
25:18
all the lessons the hard way. I think
25:21
that was really important. Yeah.
25:24
>> Um the groundwater protection council is
25:27
kind of an interesting group in that um
25:30
they deal with not only water quality, a
25:33
little bit of water quantity, but also
25:35
oil and gas, underground injection. Um
25:38
so that was kind of a broadening
25:41
horizons opportunity. Um definitely
25:45
learned um a lot more about oil and gas
25:48
and how critical that is. Um, you know,
25:52
people say, "Well, we have all these
25:54
other options for other energy." It's
25:56
like, "Yes, but the petroleum
26:00
products that's in all of our plastics.
26:03
You can't lose that or you lose so many
26:06
other areas." So, that, you know, kind
26:09
of allowed me to go back a little bit to
26:12
my education.
26:13
>> Um, chemical engineering, that's, you
26:16
know, has a lot of oil and gas overlap.
26:19
Um and then you know getting into 2010
26:23
11 12 we had worst drought of on record
26:27
worse than the dust bowl.
26:28
>> Oh no.
26:29
>> Um we had better conservation practices
26:32
as far as farming and so all of the top
26:35
soil didn't leave but we had no water.
26:38
Um, so that kind of opened the
26:40
opportunity to engage with Clean Water
26:43
Act professionals, Safe Drinking Water
26:46
Act professionals, oil and gas
26:48
professionals. How do we deal with this
26:52
incredible lack of water? We had
26:55
communities who were 20, 30, 40 days
26:59
away from having no drinking water, no
27:02
source water to treat.
27:03
>> Gosh. Wow.
27:04
>> So, what are we going to do? Oh, so that
27:07
really led into a lot of the water reuse
27:11
association, some of their work, water
27:14
environment federation, uh, American
27:17
waterworks. Um, it kind of became all
27:19
hands on deck cuz we weren't the only
27:21
ones.
27:21
>> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
27:23
>> And being able to build those
27:25
connections. Um it was great that well
27:29
yes our situation very different from
27:32
Georgia but they were having a water
27:34
crisis and well that was more because of
27:37
other states and those relationships.
27:41
It's like okay that's not my problem
27:43
today but I'm going to file that away.
27:48
>> Yeah. Um and so these organizations
27:51
really allow that connection and then um
27:56
not telling you anything you don't know.
27:58
You start sharing your story and there's
28:02
always somebody who says, "I'm dealing
28:04
with that now. So glad to hear that."
28:08
Or, "Ooh, I wish I had heard that before
28:12
I made this decision which took us down
28:14
a different path. This one might match
28:16
up." uh but by wi being willing to share
28:21
not just the successes but the
28:23
challenges
28:24
really gave me a lot of opportunity on a
28:28
state regional and national stage. Um
28:31
and then ultimately
28:34
um was selected to be part of a mission
28:36
to Israel with the state department,
28:40
>> EPA and US Department of Agriculture,
28:44
>> you know, which was a fantastic
28:46
opportunity to talk about
28:49
emergency response.
28:52
My emergency response was tornadoes.
28:55
Their emergency response was
28:58
missile. you know, very different
29:02
>> but still emergency for
29:05
>> their water system, for their wastewater
29:07
system, for their communities. Um, so by
29:10
being involved in those organizations
29:14
really got to see and experience
29:17
all kinds of things that a little girl
29:20
from Oklahoma would have never dreamed
29:22
of.
29:23
>> Oh my gosh. Right.
29:24
>> Oh, that is amazing. What sticks out too
29:26
is that, you know, like so much of it is
29:29
you following some of the some of your
29:31
curiosity, what you're interested in.
29:33
Um, and sometimes you can be like, "Oh,
29:35
that's interesting or that's neat." And
29:37
that's true, but it was also turns out
29:39
to be incredibly critical um to the
29:42
mission. Like it's you're learning a lot
29:44
and also problem solving for communities
29:47
that are 20 30 days away from Yeah.
29:50
>> not having water. Um it's not just
29:53
interesting work. It's mission critical.
29:55
It's mission critical.
29:56
>> It's life-saving work. Yeah. Yeah.
29:58
>> So, so I guess you know, you just have
30:00
such um you have experience. You have
30:03
lived experiences and I think you now
30:05
you have perspective, right? You're not
30:06
the you're not the 23-year-old saying
30:08
these we have fish dying in the in the
30:10
river. Uh you you've seen the movies,
30:13
lots of movies before. So what kind of
30:15
wisdom you know as we think about um our
30:19
industry at the highest level you know 5
30:23
10 30 years from now what do you think
30:27
are the most critical things that we
30:29
need to be paying attention to um and
30:32
getting ahead of right to build the most
30:34
resilient uh communities. Um,
30:37
>> yeah, I think
30:40
it's super overarching. There's so many
30:42
things that come under statement,
30:44
>> right?
30:45
>> But water management.
30:47
>> Water management. Yeah.
30:50
>> Um,
30:51
regardless of what kind of water it is,
30:54
is it seawater? Is it um
30:59
high salinity groundwater? Is it
31:01
pristine spring water? whatever it is.
31:05
Um, we've got to do better managing our
31:09
limited water resources.
31:11
>> Um, you know, we think about, oh,
31:15
conservation, oh, it's summer, it's hot,
31:18
odd, even water.
31:22
Well, that's great, I guess, in the
31:26
moment.
31:27
>> Uhhuh.
31:29
But why do we continue to plant
31:33
non-native grasses in western Oklahoma
31:36
that require a lot of water in a place
31:39
where we don't have very much?
31:40
>> Yes. Yeah.
31:42
>> Um why do we continue to allow once
31:46
through cooling water for
31:50
data centers and power plants?
31:53
Why are we not capturing that water,
31:58
treating it, cooling it, whatever we
32:00
need to do, and using it over and over.
32:04
Uh the time is going to come we just
32:07
can't do that sort of thing. Um more and
32:11
more of the country is getting
32:12
experience in drought management.
32:16
Well,
32:18
okay. It's getting to be a bigger club,
32:20
but that's not a good thing.
32:22
>> Yeah. Yeah,
32:23
>> more of us can commiserate, but what are
32:26
we doing about it? Why do we treat oil
32:31
and gas produced water like it's some
32:35
toxic, horrible something we have to
32:37
inject and get it out of the water
32:39
cycle? Well, discharging it into a
32:44
pristine stream, yes, that would be very
32:47
bad. but why don't we treat it
32:51
and use it where it makes sense.
32:55
Um, so you know that's definitely
32:58
something I think we have to figure out
33:02
and do better as humans.
33:05
I also think we have to
33:09
reclaim the narrative out in the world
33:14
about water.
33:16
Um, my favorite thing
33:19
to totally freak somebody out who's on a
33:22
kick, you know, if a close family
33:24
member, you know, I wouldn't do this
33:26
publicly, but you know, somebody sort
33:29
of, oh, well, there's, you know, all of
33:31
these contaminants and water and we just
33:33
need to purify it. We need to do all
33:35
these things. It's like, well, you know,
33:37
if you completely purify water and you
33:40
drink it, it will kill you, right? And
33:42
it's like, what? What are you talking
33:44
about? It will leech out all of your
33:48
critical minerals that it takes to keep
33:50
you alive. That it takes your bones to
33:53
be strong. And somehow through this
33:58
process and the race to zero for all
34:01
contaminants, we've forgotten that
34:05
it takes some of these minerals
34:08
um and some water and minerals. Mineral
34:13
water. Yeah. All the all the the things
34:15
that are
34:16
>> Yeah. We're not just made of water.
34:18
>> That's a great point.
34:19
>> Right.
34:19
>> Yeah.
34:20
>> Absolutely.
34:21
>> Mhm.
34:23
>> That's I I I I love I love both of those
34:27
uh you know macro very They're not even
34:30
macro. They're they're life sustaining
34:32
quite frankly, you know, issues that you
34:34
raise. Um, and I, you know, I I on the
34:37
on the water management piece, what do
34:39
you think it's is it going to I mean, is
34:42
it going to take a a state running out
34:46
of water to I mean, what what do you
34:48
think it's going to take to click
34:51
for the entire United States? That that
34:54
is a that needs to be a crit a critical
34:57
practice. And maybe that needs to be the
34:59
function that clean and and dirty and
35:02
and all of the waters run into. Maybe
35:04
it's time for a national reorg of
35:06
actually how we think about water and
35:08
that maybe has to start of how we
35:09
organize our functions. But what do you
35:11
think is part of the of part of the
35:13
solution to getting to that spot?
35:17
>> I think you know there are a lot of
35:20
pieces to that.
35:21
>> Um you know something that I've been
35:23
saying for I don't even know how long
35:26
now, a long time. And the response I get
35:30
is, "Oh, but that will take too long."
35:34
But it's a it's a change in education.
35:38
It's um a change in what and how we
35:42
teach our children in elementary school,
35:47
middle school, high school. It's a
35:48
change in how we uh talk to college
35:52
students. It's a change to how we train
35:56
and educate the water workforce
35:59
because everybody wants it fixed now.
36:03
Um, and one of my, um, secretary of
36:08
environment that I worked for, um, he
36:11
would routinely say, "This is a 10-year
36:15
problem."
36:16
>> Uhhuh.
36:16
>> Yep.
36:17
>> And if you wait 10 years to start, it's
36:19
still a 10-year problem. H yes it's like
36:23
right this is a problem we have to start
36:27
working to resolve
36:29
>> is training and educating our children
36:33
is that the end all be all no
36:36
but if we teach them differently when
36:39
they're younger
36:41
they take that with them and they apply
36:44
it um I was speaking to
36:49
um was the board of advisers for the
36:51
College of Engineering at the University
36:53
of Oklahoma.
36:54
And several of the other members were
36:58
saying things like, "We're not here to
37:02
talk about water. We need to be talking
37:05
about use of AI and data centers."
37:10
And it's like, well, but you have to
37:12
have water and energy to make the AI
37:16
work. Um, and so it's just it wasn't
37:20
meant as we don't need water, but
37:23
because their business model was focused
37:26
on how do we use and improve AI,
37:30
there wasn't the realization of all the
37:34
things you have to bring into it to make
37:36
work. I don't know if this is still
37:38
true, but it was a study done in
37:41
California,
37:42
uh, research study, and it was a simple
37:45
yes or no query,
37:49
um, uses half a liter of water.
37:52
>> Yeah.
37:52
>> Yeah. And it's like, holy cow,
37:57
how many gallons,
37:59
how many millions of gallons are we um
38:03
using talking about, you know? Well,
38:06
it's easier for me as co-pilot than it
38:09
is to type out all the words and go
38:11
read,
38:12
>> right? Yeah. No, that's the day. Um, so
38:15
I think you know kind of how we deal
38:19
with how the general public not just the
38:23
water sector thinks about water um talks
38:28
about water uses water um one of the
38:32
things that I routinely do um if I'm
38:35
talking to a class or um even a water
38:40
sector group if you haven't read the
38:43
book, The Big Thirst by Charles Fishman.
38:47
You have to It's like required reading.
38:51
It teaches you a whole lot. Um, and you
38:57
know, so we have to stop living in our
39:01
own tiny little bubble.
39:04
And it's like, well, it's flooding. Why
39:08
are we talking about drought?
39:11
And again, you know, one of the previous
39:13
cabinet secretaries would say in
39:16
Oklahoma, drought never ends.
39:20
It is merely interrupted by periods of
39:22
flooding.
39:25
And we may be drought in the west and
39:28
flooding in the east at the same time.
39:31
But when you're dealing with those
39:33
extremes
39:34
for yourself, you're not thinking about,
39:39
oh well, the communities that were 20,
39:43
30, 40 days away from having no water.
39:46
It was a tragedy. And they were looking
39:48
at spending millions of dollars, even
39:51
though they were very small, to try to
39:53
get water. But then it rained.
39:56
>> Yeah.
39:56
>> And so we don't have to worry about that
39:58
anymore.
39:58
>> Yeah. Yeah.
40:00
>> Okay. It's two years later now we're
40:02
worried.
40:03
>> Yeah. Yeah.
40:05
>> No.
40:06
>> I I just I think I'm Shel. I just I'm so
40:09
thankful that you've not um officially
40:12
retired on a beach, your happy place,
40:15
and are are still continuing uh to give
40:19
back to our community because it's um
40:21
you h you control uh the narrative that
40:24
we all need to hear and you take such a
40:27
long view and I think a a very important
40:30
kind of one water shared view that is so
40:33
important to continue to educate us. I
40:36
know every one of our conversations I I
40:38
I leave more educated and just the
40:40
general your colleagues um the public
40:44
and so just grateful that you're here on
40:46
the podcast with us and you could share
40:47
this time but then also grateful that
40:49
you're you're um you're not at the beach
40:51
yet just yet. You're you're still
40:52
contributing in a very meaningful way
40:54
into the sector and uh look forward to
40:57
uh what you're going to accomplish in
40:58
this next chapter as well.
41:00
>> Well, thank you. It's been great to be
41:02
here with you and you know I went to
41:05
visit the beach two weeks ago. So you
41:07
know I'm still I'm visiting but I'm
41:10
coming home and you know staying um very
41:13
much connected. Like I guess what
41:15
started out as a job became a career
41:19
became a passion
41:21
>> and I think the passion will stay with
41:24
me forever. It's I just I don't imagine
41:28
that it could ever slip away
41:30
>> and we need you. So, keep it going.
41:33
>> Yeah. And cannot cannot say um anything
41:37
to add to that. The passion um Yeah. it
41:40
ju it just flows from you and and I'm so
41:43
glad that that it gets to flow to all of
41:45
you who have been listening in and um um
41:48
we thank you so much for tuning in to
41:50
this podcast for um hearing from folks
41:53
like Shelly and if you've enjoyed this
41:56
episode please like, share, comment um
41:58
and also let us know who else you would
42:00
want to hear from who is someone who
42:02
makes waterwork. We'll see you next
42:04
time. Thanks for listening to the Make
42:06
Waterwork podcast. If you enjoyed
42:09
today's episode, please take a moment to
42:11
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42:16
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42:22
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