Latest / The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education / Challenging Adultism, Respecting Children & Rethinking the Power Dynamic in Parenting

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Challenging Adultism, Respecting Children & Rethinking the Power Dynamic in Parenting · The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education

• 0:15
  Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Big Home
• 0:18
  Ed Conversations. My name is Kelly Rig.
• 0:20
  I'm a home Ed mum of two, founder of Off Roading
• 0:23
  Motherhood and a qualified mindset coach.
• 0:25
  I'm passionate about supporting parents and especially
• 0:27
  neurodivergent families as they navigate the transition from
• 0:29
  mainstream schooling into home education.
• 0:32
  And I'm here together as always with my Co host, Ashley Venario.
• 0:35
  She's a fellow home Med mum of three and a former primary
• 0:38
  teacher. So we created the big Home Med
• 0:40
  Conversations podcast with what began as honest, heartfelt talks
• 0:43
  around the coffee table, kids running around us.
• 0:46
  And it's now going into a space where hundreds of listeners now
• 0:49
  tune in for real, unfiltered conversations about mindset,
• 0:52
  behavior, challenges, educational philosophies and the
• 0:55
  often emotional journey of alternative education.
• 0:57
  So we aim to cut through the noise and focus on what really
• 1:00
  matters to home, educating families, offering priority,
• 1:03
  confidence and community. In every episode today we are
• 1:07
  talking about adultism. This is an interesting 1 and
• 1:11
  when we were looking at our Changing Perspective series, we
• 1:13
  were looking for all the different possible prejudices
• 1:16
  that that are facing our kids every single day.
• 1:20
  And obviously the potential for children of all different walks
• 1:24
  of life to be experiencing. And we wanted to really try and
• 1:27
  kind of cast the light on some subjects that are really
• 1:30
  important to talk about with your kids and to help you to try
• 1:32
  and expand your knowledge around parenting and the way that you
• 1:36
  want to show up in the world. And obviously, just like some
• 1:38
  new books and some new avenues and ideas to consider.
• 1:41
  And obviously, I think that adultism is actually something
• 1:43
  which is, is a, is a big part of any kind of family who is
• 1:49
  unschooling or project LED or trying to be conscious of home
• 1:53
  educating differently than a school environment.
• 1:56
  Quite fundamentally anyway. I feel like this is something
• 1:58
  which we do already have at least a nugget in our minds at
• 2:03
  that point that we are seeing our children as real people, as
• 2:08
  not just future adults, but individuals in their own rights
• 2:11
  right now. And the goal we tend to all have
• 2:14
  is this kind of concept. We don't want to have to try and
• 2:16
  fix the traumas later as they reach adulthood.
• 2:20
  We want them growing up with the right thoughts in their heads
• 2:22
  and being supported to be themselves from the beginning.
• 2:26
  And I think that the concept of sort of adultism and, and, and
• 2:31
  all of that is what we're going to get into today.
• 2:32
  But we basically, myself and Ashley have been doing our best
• 2:37
  to to read in time. It's not fair by Eloise Rickman.
• 2:40
  She is a fellow home educating parent, UK based hood educating
• 2:43
  parent, and she has written a book about adultism.
• 2:47
  So she is extremely well read clearly and researched and every
• 2:51
  single page of this so far, every page has maybe go and has
• 2:57
  led to like a big conversation with my partner about phrasing
• 3:01
  and the language we use and the attitude we have towards certain
• 3:05
  things and the moments when we as adults feel inconvenienced by
• 3:09
  our children or my my son, for example, and sort of getting
• 3:12
  stuck into this conversation. I guess hopefully you'll relate
• 3:15
  to this one. Ashley is is as they get older,
• 3:17
  you go from being. I mean, I definitely have always
• 3:19
  been the decision maker in our family.
• 3:21
  Even my husband defers to me on a massive scale.
• 3:26
  I think that's pretty common. Yeah, it's really common, isn't
• 3:28
  it, for the for the woman of the house to be the researcher, the
• 3:32
  decision maker, the the buyer, the person who's organizing the
• 3:35
  whole damn thing. And essentially, I have been
• 3:38
  used to obviously to some degree, calling the shots for my
• 3:42
  kids. I've been offering them an
• 3:44
  education opportunity. I've been researching and
• 3:46
  planning ideas. I've been introducing them to
• 3:48
  groups of friends and people who I think they might get along
• 3:50
  with. Like I have had an element of
• 3:52
  control and decision making for them as children obviously their
• 3:57
  entire life. And I'm used to that role and
• 4:01
  I'm quite used to having my control.
• 4:03
  So that's terrible. It's not not in a nasty way, but
• 4:06
  just like me just deciding what's for dinner or me just
• 4:09
  deciding what we're doing next or deciding if we're going to go
• 4:11
  and do that thing or not. And I have now got 2 growing
• 4:16
  capable minds who were at war with my control.
• 4:21
  And one of the things I think as adults we do struggle with, even
• 4:25
  as like a fairly kind of unschooling eclectic family, is
• 4:28
  relinquishing that control. My son has an idea or a
• 4:33
  suggestion for every suggestion I make.
• 4:35
  If I say we're going to have dinner and then we'll watch a
• 4:38
  movie, because in my head that makes logical sense, but why
• 4:41
  don't we just watch the movie and then just have a late
• 4:43
  dinner? And I'm just like, well, no,
• 4:44
  because then like the movie is going to finish at six.
• 4:47
  Now I've got to cook it. And so you can be eating at 7.
• 4:48
  It's just too late. By the time I've done that, it's
• 4:50
  going to be way past bedtime. And I was like, he's like, well,
• 4:53
  then can't we just stay up late? And I'm just like, well, no,
• 4:54
  because you need your sleep and you've got to do this tomorrow.
• 4:56
  And I'm constantly at war with, with his suggestions and, and
• 5:00
  him wanting to flex and change our boundaries.
• 5:03
  And obviously it's always we are open to compromise and we are
• 5:05
  open to discussion. And I am doing my best a lot.
• 5:08
  I was literally talking to him again about this yesterday, said
• 5:10
  I'm really sorry. I know I tend to be a little bit
• 5:12
  like, no, we're doing it this way because I can't think about
• 5:15
  another way right now. Like I've just decided and we're
• 5:17
  doing it that way. It's easier.
• 5:19
  And I'm really conscious now, especially after reading this
• 5:21
  book, that I am basically deciding that because I'm an
• 5:24
  adult that my decisions are more logical or my decisions are
• 5:29
  going to make more sense. So that I am considering all the
• 5:32
  consequences or the fallout of those things.
• 5:34
  So I should be listened to over him.
• 5:37
  And obviously I'm like massively working on correcting it now
• 5:39
  because I'm really conscious of the fact that actually that's
• 5:42
  it's very disrespectful and actually doesn't teach him
• 5:44
  anything. It doesn't teach him an
• 5:45
  opportunity to like try out something and see what the
• 5:48
  consequences are or to, to do it and to be right.
• 5:53
  And actually it worked out great.
• 5:54
  Like, and I am, it's just like kind of like a growing up thing.
• 5:58
  It's almost like, OK, you actually are very capable of
• 6:00
  making these decisions. And I'm not really giving you
• 6:02
  the chance to do it. And it's being being vulnerable
• 6:04
  here. Don't, don't be mad at me for
• 6:06
  it. But I'm, it's one of those
• 6:07
  things you'll just kind of have these little moments.
• 6:09
  I think as our kids grow where we do realize that actually they
• 6:13
  are way more capable than we give them credit for.
• 6:15
  Yeah, they are. And I think it there's a couple
• 6:19
  of things I want to say because you touched on so many, so many
• 6:22
  interesting points and I want to kind of pull them apart.
• 6:24
  So I think the first one is just how she opens the book around
• 6:28
  defining a child so that the more you think about like, what
• 6:34
  is the definition of a child? And the more people you ask and
• 6:38
  the more you think about it, the more your answer might change.
• 6:41
  And so really understanding that in the end, she kind of gets to
• 6:44
  this point where a child is just the definition is just not an
• 6:47
  adult yet. Like that's sort of the only way
• 6:50
  to define it because there's never this moment in your life
• 6:53
  where you suddenly turn 18 and it's like, wow, everything
• 6:56
  changes. It's this very slow, steady
• 6:57
  progression as you grow. And then of course, if you say
• 7:01
  to a child like, oh, you're a child, they might respond and be
• 7:04
  like, no, I'm a teenager or I'm not little, Like, no, I'm nine,
• 7:07
  like I'm not a child anymore. And so there's so much of it is
• 7:10
  just like your own perception of where you are on that journey.
• 7:14
  But that when you start to think about this, and it kind of my
• 7:18
  thought on this was like, OK, gosh, well, that's really
• 7:20
  interesting because if I always think of them as children, which
• 7:24
  as a parent, you sort of will because I'm still a child to my
• 7:27
  mom, right? I'm her child.
• 7:29
  And I'll never have the experience that she has because
• 7:33
  I'll always be younger than her and, you know, less far along on
• 7:38
  my adult journey than she is. And so I'm starting to think
• 7:43
  that, gosh, I really need to start to think about how do I
• 7:46
  shift my perception of that so that I am, to your point,
• 7:51
  considering their wants and needs and emotions in a way that
• 7:58
  doesn't, I mean, I'm not marginalized it because I do
• 8:01
  very much try to be open to their feelings and that they are
• 8:05
  a whole person. I think anyone that's followed
• 8:08
  Montessori style, you, you accept that even as a baby, a
• 8:12
  child is a whole being. They don't need to do any work.
• 8:15
  They're right where they are, right where they need to be.
• 8:19
  So I feel like I've done that, but I maybe don't to your point,
• 8:24
  I feel like, well, I'm, I am considering the whole family
• 8:27
  here and I am thinking about what is going to work for all
• 8:30
  the members of this family and how we're going to continue to
• 8:35
  succeed and progress. And there is obviously truth in
• 8:39
  that, but there's definitely room for a conversation with
• 8:43
  myself about, OK, I need to stop thinking of them as children.
• 8:46
  I need to consider where they are on their on their journey to
• 8:48
  becoming an adult and not think of them.
• 8:51
  And she mentions in the book like, not thinking of them as a
• 8:54
  work in progress, not thinking of them as something to be
• 8:57
  molded, but actually respecting who they are and where they are
• 9:03
  and that they have the ability to advocate for what they want
• 9:08
  and need. Yeah.
• 9:10
  And yeah, you're right. It might go against like what we
• 9:12
  want to need. And I think that's just the
• 9:14
  negotiation of of life. And so much of what she talks
• 9:18
  about comes back to child's rights and then being in a in a
• 9:23
  community similar if not exactly the same as those that face
• 9:27
  racism or women and how they haven't gotten rights over time
• 9:32
  and how it's been a progress. And I thought was really
• 9:35
  interesting of when she pointed this out, when you think of any
• 9:38
  community that is marginalized, even homeschooling, for example,
• 9:44
  how we perceive that that community and the rights that we
• 9:48
  fight for are typically voiced by said community.
• 9:53
  Like women were facing sexual harassment in the workplace and
• 9:56
  some men too. Absolutely.
• 9:58
  And so they started to fight for that.
• 10:01
  And we understood that, OK, we need to listen to these to these
• 10:05
  women. We need to listen to what
• 10:06
  they're saying. We that's a real thing.
• 10:08
  Obviously, racism is nothing new.
• 10:11
  And this is something we've been hearing about from these
• 10:14
  communities for years and years and years and years and years.
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  But with children, they are not speaking on their own behalf
• 10:21
  because we have the power. And it's so crazy that we
• 10:25
  haven't thought like, gosh, we need to give them a voice.
• 10:27
  And this is something that I never ever thought about.
• 10:31
  Never. I never thought about adultism
• 10:34
  on the same level with sexual harassment, racism.
• 10:38
  Yeah. I, I just, I just think, OK,
• 10:40
  we're the parent, They're the kids.
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  We lead the way. And as this reading this book,
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  like, Oh my gosh. Like, wow.
• 10:45
  I have been drinking the kool-aid here with zero question
• 10:51
  about if that's appropriate. So it's, it is interesting.
• 10:54
  And she really, she kind of is pretty hard hitting and it it's
• 10:58
  eye opening. I did.
• 10:59
  I have definitely had moments that have felt quite triggering
• 11:01
  as like kind of sitting there going, oh, OK, that's not great.
• 11:05
  Like, I can't believe that I've never thought of that before.
• 11:08
  I've never thought of it that way.
• 11:09
  And I did love the concept of kind of like giving language to
• 11:12
  things and helping them to understand how to express
• 11:15
  themselves. But I think that we do see
• 11:17
  children expressing themselves around these things.
• 11:19
  But as adults, we call them tantrums or we call them talking
• 11:23
  back, or we talk. We call it sass or we, we, we
• 11:26
  see it as resistance or yeah, just naughtiness.
• 11:30
  Like we, we do see children using their voice, but we have
• 11:33
  just decided that because it hasn't got the same, I don't
• 11:36
  know long fancy words in it that we see from adults fighting back
• 11:42
  against sexual abuse or whatever, that because they're
• 11:44
  not necessarily sitting there going, Daddy, I find it very
• 11:48
  inappropriate when you speak to me with that tone.
• 11:50
  It would be much more helpful if you spoke to me with a quiet,
• 11:53
  calm tone because then I don't feel anxious and I don't feel
• 11:56
  stressed. And then I'm able to listen to
• 11:59
  what you've got to say. And if you give me a few minutes
• 12:01
  to process, then I'll be able to respond to it in an appropriate
• 12:04
  way. Like of course they're going to
• 12:06
  go wah and run away because we're not giving them a chance
• 12:10
  to. Like we're we're basically just
• 12:13
  asserting our will and expecting them to just obediently do as
• 12:18
  they're told and to accept that they are what's wrong and they
• 12:22
  need to be fixed in order to be acceptable as an adult in the
• 12:27
  future, but also as a child now. And I mean, this is somewhat off
• 12:32
  the cuff, but my children both yesterday wanted to role play
• 12:36
  being at school and they hadn't got a little whiteboard that we
• 12:40
  use sometimes for kind of doing a bit of learning.
• 12:42
  And they wanted me to be like a teacher with the white board,
• 12:44
  getting them to do some spelling.
• 12:46
  And so I was just like, OK, fine, we'll have some fun with
• 12:48
  this. And they started fighting and
• 12:50
  messing about and went, wait, stop fighting.
• 12:52
  Or you end up in detention. And they're like, what's a
• 12:55
  detention? I'm just like, it's when you've
• 12:57
  been really like when you keep messing about or stopping the
• 13:00
  teacher doing what they need to do or being rude or talking out
• 13:04
  of turn, etcetera. You might get into trouble for
• 13:06
  it. And then you have to do like
• 13:07
  lines at the end of the day, like you have to stay back and
• 13:10
  not be picked up until a bit later, whatever.
• 13:12
  And we were kind of laughing about it.
• 13:13
  It was meant to be a game. And what I found really
• 13:16
  fascinating was they thought it was hilarious.
• 13:18
  And so they started acting up and intentionally being a bit
• 13:21
  cheeky or like interjecting or talk about toilet humour.
• 13:24
  And I was being playful and giving them a little tick every
• 13:27
  time they did even the slightest infraction.
• 13:29
  And it was, it was meant to be funny, but actually I'm talking
• 13:33
  within the space of 5 minutes it stopped being funny.
• 13:36
  What it started, what I started to notice very quickly was that
• 13:39
  my son started to actually become quite frustrated.
• 13:43
  That injustice of not being able to talk back, AKA have his own
• 13:49
  opinions, not being able to interject and distract the
• 13:53
  subject away from what we're supposed to be doing, and not
• 13:55
  being able to fidget around and mess about and move his body or
• 13:59
  play fight with his sister. Like all the things which I
• 14:01
  normally completely ignore or just go like, hang on, come on.
• 14:05
  Like what we're doing next. And we're just kind of like just
• 14:07
  gently encourage them to kind of keep on board with what we're
• 14:10
  doing. I was in turn actually telling
• 14:13
  them that it was naughty or wrong or they shouldn't be doing
• 14:16
  it. And really, really fast because
• 14:20
  my, my, my daughter as well, obviously was sitting there
• 14:23
  being all prim and perfect and cute and adorable and, and
• 14:25
  trying to be good for teacher and doing the opposite of what
• 14:28
  he was doing. So she wasn't getting any ticks.
• 14:31
  And, and so quickly the injustice between them started
• 14:33
  to build. They started to present.
• 14:35
  He started to resent me. He started to resent his sister.
• 14:38
  He started to provoke her to try and get her to do things that
• 14:41
  she shouldn't be doing so that she would get ticks too, so that
• 14:45
  they could fight. Then he was pointing out
• 14:46
  everything that she was doing wrong and trying to say, well,
• 14:49
  she shouldn't get a point now because she didn't do it right.
• 14:51
  And it's the competitiveness started to build.
• 14:53
  And then he got upset and I was like, OK, this isn't a game we
• 14:58
  need to stop. Like you guys are really taking
• 15:01
  this very personally. And it's like, I get that this
• 15:04
  you wanted to play this game, you started it, you wanted to
• 15:07
  get into it, but this is not working.
• 15:08
  And what was really fascinating for me is on the reflection with
• 15:11
  them. So I actually stopped and I was
• 15:12
  like, right, OK, stop. Let's reflect.
• 15:15
  Let's notice what just happened and how it started to make you
• 15:19
  feel. And what was very, very scary is
• 15:22
  that my son expressed that he would not want to be alive if
• 15:28
  that was how he was controlled in his day-to-day life.
• 15:31
  If he wasn't allowed to do those things, that he wouldn't want to
• 15:34
  live like that. And I just, I couldn't believe
• 15:37
  that he responded to that situation with that strong a
• 15:42
  feeling that how frustrated and sad he became at not being able
• 15:49
  to just be himself and to do what he wants to do and to
• 15:52
  express himself, how he felt like he should express himself.
• 15:55
  And it showed me in that moment how good a job we're doing on a
• 15:58
  normal basis. The.
• 16:00
  Concept of actually going to be reaffirmed, right?
• 16:02
  Yeah, like obviously he doesn't feel this way on a day-to-day
• 16:04
  basis, so that's really great. But it was really sad to see how
• 16:07
  quickly a child can start to feel like that.
• 16:11
  And that's, I mean, that's I mean, it's definitely an extreme
• 16:14
  version of what a pain school a teacher wouldn't be getting on a
• 16:16
  single child that much. But it definitely translates as
• 16:20
  a. This is what children are
• 16:22
  expected to be and to do. Yeah, and that.
• 16:25
  So going back to the book for a second, she kind of starts off
• 16:29
  with, you know, talking about how things are today, the status
• 16:33
  quo, the interesting dynamic of all adults were once children.
• 16:38
  So we actually were on the other side of this, right?
• 16:41
  We, we did move from one class to the other and have these, I
• 16:49
  forget how she coined them, but kind of like adult rights, like
• 16:52
  just by being an adult, you, you change into a position of power,
• 16:58
  regardless of if you even have. There are some situations where
• 17:01
  this isn't the case, of course, but in most cases you do then
• 17:06
  move into this position of being able to say, I can eat what I
• 17:09
  want, I can do what I want and, and have the repercussions of,
• 17:13
  of all those decisions. So it's really interesting.
• 17:16
  But the other point that she then talks about our child's
• 17:20
  rights and the history of how those rights came to be.
• 17:22
  And then the interesting dynamic that I don't know about you, I
• 17:27
  could not name all the child's rights.
• 17:28
  They're not talked about in any parent books.
• 17:30
  They're not talked about when you get pregnant in your
• 17:32
  parenting classes. They're often not ever
• 17:35
  communicated with said child. So they don't know their rights.
• 17:39
  So it's it's really interesting. And as you you dive into them,
• 17:44
  I'm like, gosh, yeah, this is these are they make sense.
• 17:48
  They're accepted across most of the globe or in the areas that
• 17:52
  she calls weird, weird areas. So it's like wealthy, educated,
• 18:00
  industrialized, rich, and I forget the other one, something
• 18:04
  like that. So obviously looking at it from
• 18:07
  that perspective. But so the interesting part
• 18:10
  about these rights when we look at them from a schooling
• 18:11
  perspective, is that they're often at odds with each other.
• 18:15
  So you have this one right where every child needs to be educated
• 18:19
  so they can reach their potential.
• 18:20
  But then you have this other right where every child is
• 18:21
  entitled to play and rest. OK, those don't marry.
• 18:25
  They, or you can, you can argue either way.
• 18:29
  No, my child should have 10 hours of homework and they
• 18:31
  should be doing all of this. And they should because
• 18:33
  otherwise how will they ever reach their potential and, and
• 18:36
  acquire the, the education and, and to get the job to have the
• 18:41
  wealth that they need to be considered potential, potential
• 18:44
  reach. And then at the same time,
• 18:47
  they're entitled to rest and play and to be a child and be
• 18:50
  creative. OK, well, these are at odd with
• 18:53
  each other. So it is really interesting.
• 18:55
  And when she talks about schooling and how it is
• 18:58
  coercive. So most schools have to foster
• 19:01
  this environment of compliance and obedience because otherwise,
• 19:06
  with one teacher and 30 kids, how do you get them to move
• 19:08
  forward? How do you get them to come back
• 19:10
  every day if you can't? If you can't do that?
• 19:13
  And then obviously it's also coercive for parents because it
• 19:17
  restrains the parents ability to influence the education their
• 19:22
  children receive. And in many cases, some cases,
• 19:26
  parents are forced to send their children to a school that might
• 19:29
  go against their own beliefs, right.
• 19:32
  So all of this sort of internalizes for children this
• 19:39
  power structure because they're LED through it from the
• 19:41
  beginning. And and it talks about how like
• 19:44
  shaming in school you were just talking about it was perfectly
• 19:47
  described, loss of privileges in school goes against child's
• 19:52
  rights. Like that actually is something
• 19:54
  that behavior modification techniques that they're using in
• 19:58
  schools are actually not marrying with child's rights.
• 20:04
  And also not with their best interests like that demonstrated
• 20:08
  to me hugely that where it might have made it more convenient for
• 20:11
  me for them to sit and be quiet and listen and to not interrupt
• 20:15
  me and to do exactly as they're told.
• 20:17
  It did absolutely nothing for their self esteem.
• 20:20
  It did nothing for their ability to problem solve or manage their
• 20:22
  own feelings. It did nothing for their
• 20:24
  relationships with each other or their relationship with me as an
• 20:27
  adult. It created a lot of divides,
• 20:30
  created competition. It created disrespect and it
• 20:34
  actually made the problem worse, not better.
• 20:36
  Like it's it's very interesting how I think that we really are
• 20:40
  showing our young people in schools an awful lot of
• 20:43
  disrespect with the control that we try to have over them.
• 20:46
  We're not allowing them any autonomy.
• 20:48
  And it means that they obviously then start to push back against
• 20:50
  that. Like you wouldn't want to behave
• 20:52
  like if we were going to a workplace and we were told how
• 20:55
  our behaviour was had to be and we had to do that exactly that
• 20:57
  way or we were in trouble all the time and we're constantly
• 20:59
  being held back at the other day.
• 21:00
  But you're going to have to work an extra hours over time because
• 21:02
  you you didn't do that, right? There'd be an uproar, an
• 21:06
  absolute uproar of like, oh, because I didn't sit with my
• 21:10
  legs crossed perfectly. I didn't put my hand up before I
• 21:13
  spoke to my boss. Like, why are we, why do we
• 21:17
  think these things are appropriate for children but not
• 21:19
  for adults? Like, it's very, very strange.
• 21:21
  Yeah, And they, there was this story she shared because I think
• 21:27
  body autonomy is very important to child's rights.
• 21:31
  And when they when she talked about it, she was mentioning how
• 21:34
  there was this girl in this fun story she was sharing who had to
• 21:39
  go to the bathroom. And when she came back, the
• 21:42
  teacher berated her for taking too much time.
• 21:46
  And so now she's afraid to go to the bathroom at school, and
• 21:51
  she's modifying what she's eating because for her, it took
• 21:54
  her longer to have to, you know, relax to the point that she
• 21:57
  could use the toilet. And so this is affecting her
• 22:00
  mental health. It's affecting her physical
• 22:01
  health, her nutrition, everything.
• 22:03
  And then there was a story about how schools are, you know,
• 22:08
  giving out attendance awards, for example.
• 22:09
  But there was this one school that was all children who had
• 22:13
  additional needs and some of them with life altering needs
• 22:17
  that would put them, you know, in and out of hospital and all
• 22:20
  these things. Why is this school giving out
• 22:22
  attendance awards? That's like they're they're
• 22:27
  there to serve this community that likely will not be in
• 22:30
  school all the time because they have issues that prevent that
• 22:34
  from happening, that need to be addressed and physical needs
• 22:37
  that need to be met. So it just was like, what is
• 22:39
  that doing to their mental health in this in this child who
• 22:43
  is actually forming their identity?
• 22:46
  And we are already impacting that.
• 22:50
  We're we're throwing these hurdles at them and it actually
• 22:53
  goes against their mental health rights.
• 22:56
  And obviously this book there, I think if you're going to read
• 22:59
  it, read the chapter on education.
• 23:01
  I think it's 87 or 8:00, because that speaks to kind of this
• 23:05
  community. Obviously we were home education
• 23:07
  podcast. So I'm going to look at that
• 23:08
  one. But there there are a lot of
• 23:10
  other points in this book that are actually not about education
• 23:13
  that are super interesting and just really bring up so many
• 23:20
  things that I have just never I just never thought of.
• 23:22
  And isn't that a testament to the system We but yeah.
• 23:25
  Yeah. And I think that's that's really
• 23:27
  this concerning part, isn't it? That if we're not thinking about
• 23:29
  it as adults, it's because, as you say, we were not educated in
• 23:32
  it as children and we certainly didn't realize what our rights
• 23:35
  were. And even if we did know what our
• 23:37
  rights were, so we most, I'd say most children, I'm going to,
• 23:41
  that's a generalisation. I have no idea really how many
• 23:43
  children understand that if an adult hits them and causes them
• 23:46
  harm or they don't feel safe, that there are people they can
• 23:50
  call. And they could obviously call
• 23:51
  the police or they could call, you know, NSPCC or they could
• 23:54
  reach out for support or help with that.
• 23:57
  But even as a child, experiencing some issues with my
• 24:01
  sibling as a not, not my parents, but my sibling was
• 24:05
  sometimes violent towards me, I didn't feel safe.
• 24:09
  I didn't feel like I could call the police.
• 24:10
  I didn't necessarily feel like I could reach out for help.
• 24:12
  I didn't think I'd be believed. I didn't think that I'd be
• 24:15
  respected. I felt like it would be I would
• 24:18
  be breaking up the family. I would be airing our dirty
• 24:20
  laundry in public. Like there's, there was an awful
• 24:23
  lot of shame associated with speaking up and to, to using our
• 24:27
  voice to talk about the experiences we have as children.
• 24:29
  And we still feel even now, like I'm cringing a little bit
• 24:32
  referring to it. Like, I can feel though, the
• 24:34
  resistance there that it's like, shouldn't be talking about this,
• 24:36
  that this is private. And actually, so many people do
• 24:40
  experience these harms. And I think when you look at the
• 24:42
  opinions of older generations and people who kind of consider
• 24:45
  us to be very woke, it's kind of like, everyone's like, got these
• 24:49
  opinions and everyone's worried about sexual abuse is a name for
• 24:51
  everything now. Like you can't breathe without
• 24:53
  getting into trouble. Like there are people in my
• 24:55
  world who who still feel very frustrated by all of this.
• 24:58
  You can't have a laugh anymore. You can't say anything like you
• 25:00
  could accidentally upset someone.
• 25:02
  And that I can understand how it can feel frustrating to have
• 25:08
  misogyny or like the the kinds of things that you like, the
• 25:11
  hatreds, prejudices that you've got called out.
• 25:15
  And as adults, we are kind of coming up against this an awful
• 25:19
  lot, where we are seeing people finally having the words and the
• 25:23
  ability to explain this makes me feel uncomfortable.
• 25:26
  And This is why. Like, it didn't feel right.
• 25:29
  And I don't think that should be OK.
• 25:30
  Like, I feel like you shouldn't be allowed to do that to me.
• 25:33
  But the point is that these are formative moments and they do
• 25:36
  build or destroy trust. And I mean, obviously there's
• 25:40
  been such loss of independence over the years, even just from
• 25:44
  when we were children. And then certainly we look back
• 25:46
  to when our parents were children, that migration has
• 25:48
  been very evident. And so they're kind of getting
• 25:52
  it from all sides really. And you mentioned something
• 25:57
  about just the language that's used.
• 26:00
  And I think that's really important too, because obviously
• 26:02
  over the years, language has changed.
• 26:04
  And it's one of those things where why do we feel like
• 26:10
  language has been addressed and addressed and corrected and kind
• 26:17
  of gotten to a point that all sides feel or that the not all
• 26:20
  sides, because that's obviously not important, but that the
• 26:22
  marginalized community side feels comfortable with.
• 26:26
  And in terms of like, I guys just keep going back to like
• 26:31
  racism, misogyny, right, sexual harassment, all these cases.
• 26:35
  What are the right terms that we can use to describe these
• 26:37
  communities, to describe these individuals?
• 26:40
  But yet we still think it's OK to make all of these comments
• 26:45
  about children and in front of them to boot.
• 26:48
  Like it's OK to be like, don't be such a child.
• 26:52
  My gosh, grow up. All all these ways that we, we
• 26:57
  use their youth against them. Look at that child having a
• 27:02
  tantrum that mom should just get that kid under control.
• 27:04
  My God, I hated when my kid was that age.
• 27:06
  I can't. Well, you were, you were such a
• 27:08
  nightmare. You were such a torturer.
• 27:09
  It was like all we could do to get you to go to bed at night
• 27:11
  and like. It's like, I think there's a
• 27:14
  difference in that than just calling out a child and saying,
• 27:17
  Oh God, your, your needs and your feelings are just was so
• 27:21
  annoying to me when you're a child and it's just like, OK,
• 27:24
  well, thanks, you were really annoying too.
• 27:26
  But I'm not allowed to tell you that because you're my elder and
• 27:29
  I'm not. I'm supposed to be respectful
• 27:30
  towards you, but heaven forbid you show me some.
• 27:33
  And I, and I encourage my kids to call me out and to talk to me
• 27:36
  about how they're feeling and to tell me if they think that I'm
• 27:38
  out of, out of, in line with the things I'm saying, like they're
• 27:42
  allowed to express if they don't like something without judgement
• 27:44
  and without anger. And I, if I do find I get
• 27:46
  triggered by anything they have to say to me, then I try and
• 27:49
  take myself away and deal with that privately and come back
• 27:51
  when I feel calm enough to accept it and thank them for it.
• 27:54
  And it's, that is a huge difference in generational
• 27:58
  shift. It's not perfect.
• 28:00
  I've also got an awful lot of automatic phrases that come into
• 28:03
  my head, but I have to work really hard not to say them.
• 28:08
  But yeah, it's such a tricky 1, isn't it, that it really is.
• 28:10
  It is, yeah. And I think there's like a, an
• 28:13
  ability or a kind of a lesson to take away that I'm thinking
• 28:18
  about, which is just like, how do I separate them from the
• 28:23
  behavior? So if you are absolutely
• 28:28
  entitled to feel what you feel and to have the behavior that
• 28:34
  goes along with that, but I am going to have to operate in a
• 28:37
  way that keeps you safe. Also, like, you can't just throw
• 28:43
  the karaoke microphone on your sister's head because you don't
• 28:45
  like the song she's singing, right?
• 28:46
  Like, like there are you can't always just behave however you
• 28:49
  want to behave. But the thing too is because you
• 28:53
  threw it and this has not happened.
• 28:55
  I am just getting my daughter a karaoke microphone for
• 28:59
  Christmas. And so it's right in my head.
• 29:02
  This is the image you foresee sometime in January.
• 29:05
  I do, I do. It is it is on the horizon.
• 29:07
  There are two microphones that come with the carrying machines
• 29:09
  who are feeling OK about it. But I do have three children, so
• 29:12
  there's always room for some date there.
• 29:14
  Someone's going to scribble at some point for sure.
• 29:16
  Yeah, but so like, if, if that does happen, that doesn't mean
• 29:23
  you're a bad person. That doesn't mean that I hate
• 29:27
  you or that you will always do bad things and and it also
• 29:32
  doesn't mean that I should say to someone, Oh yeah, you know,
• 29:36
  lack of control there threw that microphone right at the head.
• 29:39
  So annoying. I've still got to deal with
• 29:41
  this, but but it is hard, right, Because this I especially as how
• 29:43
  educating parents we are in the thick of it 24/7 in most cases.
• 29:47
  And so we do get annoyed. We do get frustrated.
• 29:51
  This is why this book was hard, right?
• 29:53
  This is why because because it's also a struggle of like so much
• 29:57
  of adultism to me is making life easier for the adult, right?
• 30:01
  It is. It is saying I have the power so
• 30:03
  I can say no, I want, I just want to watch TV and leave me
• 30:09
  alone. And I'm going to ignore all your
• 30:12
  needs because I just, I just want to go to bed or I just want
• 30:16
  to like, I'm going to stick you in that crib and let you cry it
• 30:19
  out because I don't want to deal with it.
• 30:22
  It's it's very triggering. It's super.
• 30:24
  And I did not do that by the way, but just.
• 30:26
  I know, but it's, it's examples. It's the thing like, I think
• 30:29
  we've both felt like this sort of cringe at being vulnerable
• 30:32
  here and talking about things, which is like, actually this is
• 30:34
  stuff that maybe we have had issues with this.
• 30:36
  But that's honestly the whole point.
• 30:38
  And I guess we're sharing because we know for a fact that
• 30:41
  there is not a single parent out there who has not had at least a
• 30:44
  number of very cringe moments when you have done something or
• 30:47
  you've allowed something to happen that was completely not
• 30:49
  OK in the end and you really feel like it hadn't happened.
• 30:52
  Like we know that that we are going to make mistakes, we're
• 30:55
  going to say the wrong thing and we're going to say it in the
• 30:57
  wrong way or we're going to use the wrong language or we're
• 30:59
  going to traumatize our kids. Like we're all going to do it
• 31:01
  somewhere or another. And I guess being vulnerable
• 31:03
  feels yuck. But also at the same time, it's
• 31:06
  recognizing in that vulnerability that we have
• 31:08
  noticed it. We have seen it, we have
• 31:10
  recognized where it wasn't feeling great.
• 31:12
  This book has highlighted that moment in our memories to us,
• 31:14
  made us go, ha, OK, that's interesting.
• 31:17
  I don't like how we're handling that.
• 31:18
  Or for example, like, OK, so great example, my children being
• 31:22
  autistic means that they do not enjoy quite a lot of different
• 31:25
  foods. And I spend on, I mean, most of
• 31:27
  me, most families anyway, will relate to the concept of trying
• 31:30
  to get your kids to eat certain vegetables.
• 31:31
  But like we, we really bang our heads against a brick wall with
• 31:35
  it. A food that is safe will be safe
• 31:38
  for a period of time, then they will no longer eat that food
• 31:40
  anymore. And then we go through that, the
• 31:43
  frustration, we have cooked it exactly the same way.
• 31:45
  We have bought the exact same brand.
• 31:47
  We have made sure that it's something you like.
• 31:49
  Like this is something which you said was safe and OK, and now
• 31:51
  you're wasting the food. And then the concept of then
• 31:54
  shaming them or getting angry with them for it does happen
• 31:57
  sometimes because you go through day after day after day of being
• 32:01
  patient. OK, no problem.
• 32:02
  Just leave it like eat it or don't like you do try to be
• 32:07
  patient with it as much as you humanly possibly can be.
• 32:10
  But there's always going to be a day when you've got less
• 32:12
  capacity or you're overdone and you're tired and your meat was
• 32:14
  really full and you can't possibly function with another
• 32:16
  thing. And then your kid decides that
• 32:18
  this is a day where they're not going to eat peas and carrots
• 32:20
  anymore. And you're like, those were the
• 32:21
  last safe vegetables. Can't not eat them anymore.
• 32:24
  Like or like my son will get to the point he'll eat all the
• 32:27
  meat, all the all the like potatoes or rice or not even
• 32:30
  rice actually, but like pasta off his plate.
• 32:32
  And then he's always 2 fold to eat his vegetables, but then
• 32:35
  miraculously 20 few minutes later he's asking for pudding.
• 32:38
  He wants something else because he's hungry.
• 32:40
  And it it is just a daily delight that just makes me want
• 32:44
  to pull my own hair out of my face and I can't honestly.
• 32:47
  So I said to my husband the day I went, can we just cancel
• 32:49
  family dinners? Can we just, can we just, can we
• 32:52
  just all eat separately? I just the stress is just doing
• 32:55
  the end. Yes, and this is a big thing in
• 32:58
  in our house because we, we fight about this topic, not
• 33:02
  fight. That's a strong word.
• 33:04
  We disagree because I get, I get the financial side of it too.
• 33:08
  I think everyone's tight with money and so throwing food away
• 33:10
  feels like throwing money away. And for me, especially because I
• 33:13
  don't eat meat and my whole family does.
• 33:16
  Leftovers aren't something I can help get rid of if it's meat
• 33:19
  based. So I, if my husband's not here,
• 33:23
  I tend to not cook that way because I don't, I want to be
• 33:26
  able to eat what's leftover. And if I doctored up for them
• 33:30
  with the meat, I then am relying on my children to finish it,
• 33:33
  which they won't do. But when I was going through
• 33:37
  like my first child growing up and doing baby LED weaning and
• 33:41
  all of these different, you know, deciding how we're going
• 33:42
  to be feeding this this child now that they're eating food.
• 33:46
  I quickly found the resource that was like, you can't force
• 33:50
  kids to eat. Or I mean, you can, obviously
• 33:52
  you can, but like you shouldn't if you want them to have their
• 33:59
  own body autonomy and be able to develop the ability to feel when
• 34:04
  they're full, to understand what their body needs.
• 34:07
  Thinking about intuitive eating. And so much of that gets muddled
• 34:11
  because, and this is sort of a tangent here, but when you go,
• 34:14
  when you think about how we were eating before, we have all the
• 34:17
  foods available to us that we do today.
• 34:20
  Sometimes a craving for sugar is actually a craving for fruit.
• 34:23
  Sometimes, like we confuse that now.
• 34:25
  And so we also also foods that are available to us now can be
• 34:29
  quite pleasing, even though they're not actually food at
• 34:31
  all. And so we eat those.
• 34:33
  So anyway, the, the resource that I was reading about, it was
• 34:36
  just very clear to say, like, one, don't talk about the food.
• 34:40
  Like have other conversations at dinner, but don't sit there and
• 34:43
  be like, eat your peas, eat your peas, eat your peas.
• 34:44
  Yeah, the peas. Good.
• 34:45
  Eat the peas. You know, like not to do that.
• 34:48
  And then two, to only offer food that you want your child to eat
• 34:53
  and they're responsible for choosing how much of said food
• 34:56
  to eat and what to eat. So like if you put strawberries
• 35:00
  and beef and corn on the table and your child only wants plates
• 35:04
  full of strawberries, you have to be OK with that because
• 35:06
  that's the food that you offered.
• 35:08
  So they get to choose what and how much to eat.
• 35:12
  And then and and you don't ever talk about it like it just is
• 35:15
  what it is and you just let it go.
• 35:16
  And over time, these children grow up into adults who eat all
• 35:21
  the things. OK, so my husband is Italian and
• 35:24
  that is absolutely the opposite of how Italians work.
• 35:27
  Yeah. They load your plate for you and
• 35:31
  if you don't finish it, it is 100% finished plate, finished
• 35:34
  plate, plate. Obviously it's not speaking for
• 35:36
  all Italians, just the family that I'm.
• 35:38
  Yeah, this, this, this, Yeah. And so it's just a different, a
• 35:46
  different experience. And his grandmother is still
• 35:49
  alive. I'm sure I've mentioned this.
• 35:50
  She went through, you know, a war where there was no food
• 35:54
  available. And so she just grew up.
• 35:56
  Eat all the food, eat all the food you never like, because
• 35:59
  there's this natality of maybe you never know.
• 36:01
  You never know if it's going to go away, like you have to eat
• 36:03
  it. And so that just had lasted
• 36:08
  through the generations. And so I, I have this argument
• 36:12
  at the table of like, like he'll be like, or his mom will be
• 36:17
  like, finish your plate. And then I'm sitting there being
• 36:19
  like, you only eat till you're full.
• 36:21
  Listen to your belly. So it's just this.
• 36:22
  And my kids are just sat there like, OK.
• 36:25
  Who am I most scared of? Percent, 100%.
• 36:30
  But no, because then it's funny because they're like, my body
• 36:32
  says I'm full. Like that's how they'll tell me
• 36:34
  they're done eating. Yeah, my body says I'm full.
• 36:37
  But likewise, then they want dessert.
• 36:40
  And I was like, OK, but do we feel like we've had enough
• 36:44
  nutritious food? Like how are we balancing the
• 36:46
  healthy with the not healthy? This.
• 36:48
  But this is the thing, right? It's it's.
• 36:50
  So difficult. Ongoing It's hard to relinquish
• 36:52
  all this control because you want your kids to be healthy.
• 36:55
  Exactly. And so, yes, I mean that that
• 36:57
  leads on really nicely to the fact that like my son recently
• 36:59
  has really cut back on his vegetables.
• 37:01
  And obviously as an adult, I am worried about him and his
• 37:04
  growing and his health, but I'm also worried about him making
• 37:07
  good choices and recognizing that his body needs those things
• 37:10
  and it all becomes a whole thing.
• 37:13
  And so our mealtimes have become a lot of me nagging, a lot of me
• 37:15
  putting things on his plate that he has told me he doesn't like
• 37:18
  and doesn't want. And he doesn't want them on his
• 37:21
  plate. And I'm constantly just putting
• 37:23
  them back on his plate going, I'll just have a little bit or
• 37:25
  you used to like them or you eat that, just have a couple of
• 37:27
  mouthfuls. And it's that controlling and
• 37:30
  pushing it and going on about it all the time is making me
• 37:33
  stressed. It's annoying him.
• 37:34
  The relationship is obviously suffering for it.
• 37:36
  He's just finding himself not being listened to.
• 37:38
  And that's quite common theme at the moment.
• 37:40
  He keeps sort of saying that he doesn't feel like I'm listening
• 37:42
  to him. And so I'm trying really hard to
• 37:44
  be conscious of it and take his ideas on board or his wishes on
• 37:47
  board and to respect that he's getting older and he has got an
• 37:50
  opinion about things and he wants things a certain way.
• 37:52
  And So what we've started doing again is very much like the baby
• 37:55
  LED weaning actually, is to have bowls of different things on the
• 37:59
  table and to just allow them to eat as much or as little a bit
• 38:05
  of each one as they want. So we'll do a big thing of
• 38:07
  carrots, we'll do a big thing of peas.
• 38:09
  And if he doesn't touch the bees, so be it.
• 38:11
  He eats loads of carrots. Great.
• 38:13
  Like if that's the way it is, me and my husband obviously are
• 38:15
  quite happy to eat all of it. So we'll just finish off
• 38:18
  whatever they just don't tend to be that interested in.
• 38:20
  And it's actually working really well and it's stopping us from
• 38:23
  constantly moaning at each other about it.
• 38:25
  And I think kind of getting onto the concept of solutions, I
• 38:28
  suppose in all of this. And the fact that there is
• 38:29
  actually the potential here for us to make changes that we don't
• 38:33
  have to sit and just spend loads of time berating ourselves for
• 38:36
  moments gone by where we haven't done it right.
• 38:38
  It's about using tools like this to start to think, OK, I can
• 38:42
  actually see here where I'm doing this or where I'm not
• 38:44
  really respecting them or their opinion.
• 38:46
  And how could I actually shift and change this a little bit
• 38:48
  and, and care about it that little bit more.
• 38:51
  And also just to expect, I do feel inconvenienced as an adult
• 38:55
  sometimes by the fact that they are children and they do things
• 38:58
  a certain way. Of course, we do, because we're
• 39:00
  in such a blooming rush all the time and we've got so many
• 39:02
  pressures on us. But actually, that's not about
• 39:04
  needing them to slow down and stop being a child.
• 39:07
  That's more to do with us reflecting on our lives as
• 39:10
  adults and actually, what could we slow down a little bit?
• 39:13
  Do I really need to rush to getting all this done as fast as
• 39:16
  I possibly can? Or does it not really matter if
• 39:18
  I don't quite manage to get this place perfectly tidy today?
• 39:20
  You know, like, what is it that we could compromise on to make a
• 39:25
  bit more room for them, to listen to them a bit better, to
• 39:27
  be more in their world sometimes, and to actually allow
• 39:30
  them to exist in hours without them feeling like they're not
• 39:34
  welcome. And that's, I guess the problem
• 39:36
  we're going to face if we're not careful is that's how they'll
• 39:37
  feel. Yeah, I want my kids to grow up
• 39:42
  knowing that they were respected throughout their lives.
• 39:46
  I'm hoping that that is at least the underlining message that
• 39:49
  they'll come away with. But the other day, a friend made
• 39:52
  a comment. I thought, this is really good.
• 39:55
  She was just like, when things get really hard, I just remind
• 39:57
  myself that it was never supposed to be this way.
• 40:00
  There was so much more community obviously years and years ago
• 40:04
  and that it's just sort of morphed into this lifestyle now
• 40:07
  that we obviously have to survive and it is the way the
• 40:10
  world has. We can't just snap our fingers
• 40:13
  and change it. So we are throughout the mercy
• 40:15
  of where we are today as a society.
• 40:17
  But kind of recognizing that is also helpful in a way to be
• 40:22
  like, OK, well, this is difficult.
• 40:24
  It actually is. And and no, this is not how
• 40:26
  women did it 100 years ago and 200 years ago and three years,
• 40:30
  right? This is not.
• 40:32
  Obviously there's some wonderful things that have come from our
• 40:34
  society today. I'm not saying that, but that
• 40:37
  when these moments feel hard, this is just a little comfort in
• 40:41
  that I think to say like, OK, yeah, that's right.
• 40:44
  And I really do recommend this book.
• 40:46
  I think that if you're a parent, or even if you're not, it's just
• 40:50
  an eye opening way to think about childhood and to really
• 40:56
  challenge some of the things that you grew up thinking were
• 40:59
  just the way they were. It doesn't necessarily, and
• 41:02
  shouldn't in many cases be that way.
• 41:06
  I do. I think that you'll get a lot
• 41:08
  out of it even if you just read 1 chapter.
• 41:11
  That chapter will definitely provoke some thought, I think.
• 41:13
  I actually really agree. I mean, I haven't managed to get
• 41:16
  as far through it as I wanted to by now.
• 41:17
  Life's been a bit hectic, but I definitely have gotten a lot
• 41:20
  from it already. And I will definitely be trying
• 41:22
  to finish it gradually for the next weeks or months trying to
• 41:26
  make myself finish it. Because I do think there's an
• 41:28
  awful lot of very valid and important points in here.
• 41:30
  And every single page, I'm not kidding you, I'd finish a page
• 41:33
  and be like, huh, I need to talk to your husband.
• 41:35
  There's important things for us to discuss and it's it's little
• 41:38
  bits that just just thankfully, these are the moments.
• 41:41
  And I think a lot of us are doing a lot of self work
• 41:43
  already. But doing this work on ourselves
• 41:45
  and helping ourselves to expand our minds helps us to look at
• 41:49
  things differently and helps us to trust ourselves and what
• 41:52
  we're doing better. And to lose some of that ick
• 41:54
  that we feel in the moments when we're doing things that actually
• 41:57
  don't feel quite so right and allow us to actually deal with
• 42:00
  the situation better next time. And I do believe that
• 42:06
  reparations can happen if you're listening to this thinking, Oh
• 42:09
  my God, I do that. Oh my God, I do that.
• 42:10
  Oh my God, I do that. But this is going to be such a
• 42:12
  huge thing and it's going to be really triggering for me.
• 42:14
  And actually maybe even don't agree with some of it.
• 42:16
  You do think it's nuts or whatever.
• 42:18
  But like that, we're going to have some control over some of
• 42:20
  these things. Like it's OK to have our
• 42:22
  feelings, but looking at a perspective like this helps us
• 42:25
  to really just think, OK, like maybe there's just a compromise
• 42:30
  or a way to meet us halfway. So like, I was trying to give my
• 42:32
  husband the example the day of kind of concept of compromise
• 42:34
  here, that it isn't all about about saying, OK, well, children
• 42:38
  have to be treated as exact equals in every single sense.
• 42:41
  We have to give them the complete autonomy to decide
• 42:43
  like, I don't know, like a toddler to decide if they're
• 42:45
  even going to have a nappy change entirely.
• 42:47
  Like, of course, like there's a reason why social services
• 42:51
  exists and it is to make sure that children are cared for.
• 42:54
  Like we are still responsible for caring for them and making
• 42:56
  sure that they're healthy and well and safe and protected to
• 43:00
  some degree in our society. Within the realms of this is an
• 43:03
  awful lot of conversation around this in there, which is very
• 43:05
  interesting. But it's understanding that
• 43:07
  there is compromise to be had. Much like if you had a lodger
• 43:11
  who, I don't know, loved to play the drums, but he loved to play
• 43:14
  all night long, that you would obviously have a conversation
• 43:17
  with them and say, hey, look, I sleep at night.
• 43:20
  You don't sleep at night either. This isn't going to you can't
• 43:24
  break up with the kids, but you've got to find a compromise.
• 43:26
  Like you're going to say, look, I appreciate that you want to
• 43:28
  drum. Can we agree that we stopped
• 43:29
  drumming by 11 and that we we can pick it up again for six?
• 43:33
  But like between those windows, you've got to let me sleep
• 43:36
  because I can't survive Like this is doing my head in.
• 43:39
  Like, you'd have to find a compromise.
• 43:40
  And I think that it's speaking to my son about the vegetables
• 43:43
  was like, I'm not going to force you to eat them.
• 43:46
  I'm not going to keep putting things on your plate that make
• 43:47
  you sad, but you are going to sit down and go through this
• 43:50
  poster with me and point out the vegetables you do like.
• 43:52
  And Willie and I am going to buy them and I am going to offer
• 43:55
  them to you. And I am going to hope that
• 43:56
  you're going to try and eat them, please, because you do
• 43:59
  have to eat some. Like we have got to have a
• 44:00
  compromise here. We cannot never eat a vegetable
• 44:03
  again, but we can find the ones that you're willing to eat.
• 44:05
  And that was a good conversation.
• 44:07
  It respected him. It showed him that he's
• 44:09
  perfectly capable of making these decisions and it's given
• 44:12
  the most opportunity to empower himself in getting the things
• 44:15
  that he needs and wants. Boss, I also feel happy.
• 44:18
  And so we've had these great conversations that and we do all
• 44:21
  the time, like all the time. Recognising how having family
• 44:26
  over at the weekend, on Monday, every single one of us was a
• 44:30
  mess. Like we were so overtaxed with
• 44:32
  our social bar was over and flown above and gone.
• 44:35
  None of us felt particularly hungry.
• 44:37
  We all felt a little bit like touchy and sensitive and
• 44:40
  irritable with each other. And I had a really in depth
• 44:42
  conversation with them all about their kind of like tolerance
• 44:45
  meter and how like certain things make it go up towards the
• 44:48
  red and certain things bring it back down towards simmer, like
• 44:52
  low simmer and we can cope then. And so it was really interesting
• 44:56
  watching them both reflect on moments in the past couple of
• 44:59
  days, whether that it had pushed it too high and why it pushed it
• 45:01
  too high and what was being asked of them.
• 45:03
  And the masking and the effort to behave in a certain way or
• 45:07
  like having to listen to to conversations and be a part of
• 45:10
  conversations and and concentrate for that length of
• 45:12
  time is really difficult or whatever it was.
• 45:15
  And it's the more we listen and the more we see what they're
• 45:19
  dealing with and actually find good compromises, the better
• 45:21
  relationship we'll build with them.
• 45:23
  And that's just a fact. I mean, that's just mutual
• 45:26
  respect and kindness that we would offer anyone.
• 45:29
  I guess the point of this book is definitely kind of trying to
• 45:31
  indicate to us that there's, there's lots of ways that we're
• 45:34
  not compromising. Maybe we're aware of it and
• 45:38
  maybe we're not, but we but we are not compromising and we're
• 45:42
  actually just kind of dictating. And we have got to notice where
• 45:46
  we're doing that. And actually do we need to
• 45:48
  dictate or could we actually have a conversation with them
• 45:51
  about it and work it out? And at some ages, no.
• 45:54
  And at some ages, yes. And it's just trusting in their
• 45:58
  own ability and their capability to actually have those
• 46:00
  conversations and learn. And some people tell me
• 46:02
  sometimes that I have conversations with my kids that
• 46:04
  they'd never imagine having with theirs.
• 46:05
  That they think I'm talking to, that they expect I'm expecting
• 46:08
  them to understand concepts at far younger ages than they would
• 46:11
  expect them to understand a concept.
• 46:13
  But they always surprise me. And that's something that is
• 46:16
  highlighted in the book too, that she mentions.
• 46:19
  It's like we, we don't give them enough credit for their
• 46:21
  capabilities. We don't, we don't touch on this
• 46:24
  today because I feel like we're at the end of this.
• 46:26
  But when she talks about voting, voting and politics and children
• 46:32
  being able to work and all sorts of scenarios, yeah, I'm telling
• 46:37
  you, go read this book. There's so much in it to unpack
• 46:40
  and to think about. But she does talk about this
• 46:43
  underlying presence of capability that we often ignore
• 46:48
  or just say, oh, they're they're not old enough to have a
• 46:51
  conversation like that to understand or or much less
• 46:54
  contribute a great thought. And I think it's great that
• 46:59
  you're offering them these opportunities to have of an
• 47:03
  adult conversation because in many cases they're absolutely
• 47:06
  capable. Absolutely.
• 47:08
  I was saying you may use language they understand and you
• 47:11
  offer them a chance to think about it.
• 47:12
  And you, yeah, you've got to be prepared for them not
• 47:15
  understanding the concept and you need to explain it in a
• 47:17
  different way or whatever. But you can absolutely try and
• 47:21
  offer them the respect of saying this is what's going on for me,
• 47:24
  This is why I'm doing this. I don't always like that I do it
• 47:28
  either, but This is why I do it. Can you understand that?
• 47:32
  And can you get on board with that?
• 47:33
  Or have you got some thoughts on how we could do this going
• 47:35
  forward so that we wouldn't have these questions, You wouldn't be
• 47:37
  feeling how you're feeling, but I'm obviously feeling how I'm
• 47:39
  feeling. And how can we find a way to
• 47:41
  work through this? And I think it's, it's really
• 47:45
  great that the more of us are having this conversation, the
• 47:47
  more kind of strong mindful children we will raise.
• 47:52
  And I mean, I wonder what the relationships they're going to
• 47:54
  have with their kids are going to be like if this is the basis
• 47:57
  that we're giving them. And every generation does their
• 47:59
  part in, hopefully not in every family, I guess, but most, most
• 48:02
  of us are trying every generation to do things a little
• 48:05
  bit more considerately and raise more compassionate beings.
• 48:09
  And so I can only hope that the human race has got a far more
• 48:12
  compassionate future than it obviously experiences right now.
• 48:17
  But hopefully this has been interesting.
• 48:18
  Guys, thank you so much for listening.
• 48:21
  We are coming to the end of this changing perspective series.
• 48:24
  As it stands at the moment. This is the last episode in the
• 48:28
  conversation thread that we were going to have for now.
• 48:30
  There's absolutely 100% at least another 10 conversations that we
• 48:35
  could have had on this subject. And we're obviously just cutting
• 48:37
  it a bit close to Christmas now. And obviously myself and Ashley
• 48:40
  have got lots of lovely plans to spend with our families.
• 48:42
  So we are going to be coming back for one last episode before
• 48:46
  Christmas now with our reflections on the year.
• 48:49
  So favorite episodes, favorite conversations we've had,
• 48:52
  favorite guests we've had, but also where we've been with our
• 48:55
  kids this year, things we've done with them, resources,
• 48:57
  reviews that we've really loved, things that have really served
• 49:00
  our home Ed well in the past 12 months because we did it last
• 49:02
  year and you guys loved it. So we thought we'd come back and
• 49:04
  do it again. But let us know, how have you
• 49:08
  enjoyed this series? What has it made you think of?
• 49:10
  And definitely do you come and join the conversation.
• 49:13
  As always, read the blog, come and message us on social media.
• 49:16
  We love hearing from you if you've listened and you've liked
• 49:18
  it. And yeah, see you all again next
• 49:21
  time. Thank you.
• 49:27
  You've been listening to the Big Home Ed Conversations podcast.
• 49:30
  Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget to subscribe, leave
• 49:33
  a review, and share with a friend.
• 49:36
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• 49:40
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• 49:43
  final episode of the season, but please don't forget to send us
• 49:47
  your questions, comments, and personal experiences on the
• 49:50
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• 49:53
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• 49:56
  topics, or just message us directly on Instagram or TikTok.
• 50:00
  Thanks.