Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Bobby Bizup Pt. Two

Transcript

Bobby Bizup Pt. Two · The Path Went Chilly

0:29
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of our coverage about the
0:31
Speaker 1: disappearance and unexplained death of Bobby Bisop. But of course
0:35
Speaker 1: there is no statute of limitations on murder, so it
0:38
Speaker 1: just seems weird that he's willing to confess all this
0:40
Speaker 1: horrible stuff, but then is getting very defensive when talking
0:44
Speaker 1: about Bobby and saying I didn't do anything to him.
0:46
Speaker 1: So you're wondering, hm, is he paranoid that he's going
0:49
Speaker 1: to be prosecuted for murder or something like that, and
0:51
Speaker 1: that's why he's making up this story completely at a
0:54
Speaker 1: left field.
0:56
Speaker 2: You see this with to parallel this with celebrities all
0:59
Speaker 2: the time, where they give partial disclosure, like say when
1:01
Speaker 2: they're talking about plastic surgery procedures, they'll say, like one
1:07
Speaker 2: of the truthful plastic plastic surgery procedures they've had done,
1:10
Speaker 2: but leave out four other ones. In disclosing something that
1:14
Speaker 2: is truthful, they think, Okay, well this is part of
1:17
Speaker 2: the truth. So in being transparent about this, it will
1:22
Speaker 2: get people off my back and they'll believe what I'm
1:23
Speaker 2: saying is genuine. And I think that's a little bit
1:26
Speaker 2: of what we're seeing here. It's like, see, I'm truthful.
1:29
Speaker 2: I'm an honest person. I'm telling you these horrible things
1:32
Speaker 2: that I've done. Why else would I do that except
1:35
Speaker 2: for that I'm now transparent and I feel contrite about this.
1:39
Speaker 2: But in actuality, it's like I think he's giving that
1:43
Speaker 2: information because sure, on some level he might feel bad,
1:48
Speaker 2: But I also think that it is a type of
1:50
Speaker 2: deflection where it's like, look over here, and I'll confess this,
1:55
Speaker 2: but like it's a bridge too far when we talk
1:57
Speaker 2: about murder, because he could truly be held accountable for that,
2:01
Speaker 2: and if he really felt that bad and was really contrite,
2:04
Speaker 2: I would think that he would be fine with whatever
2:06
Speaker 2: punishment came his way.
2:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just is pretty ironic because I think he
2:12
Speaker 1: was probably under the mistaken impression that maybe there was
2:14
Speaker 1: a new investigation into Bobby's death, but Kevin vonn wasn't
2:18
Speaker 1: there for that. He was just looking into child sex
2:20
Speaker 1: abuse allegations, and he just pretty much mentioned Bobby as
2:24
Speaker 1: like a throwaway line because he knew that Hugh would
2:26
Speaker 1: have been present to find his remains. I'm willing to
2:28
Speaker 1: think that if Hughitt had not said those very suspicious words,
2:32
Speaker 1: then nobody would have looked any further into Bobby's death,
2:35
Speaker 1: and nobody would have attempted a new investigation, but because
2:38
Speaker 1: he revealed too much information and looked like he was
2:41
Speaker 1: over confiscating this case when in a completely different direction. So,
2:46
Speaker 1: of course, after hearing those weird remarks, Kevin Bond decided
2:49
Speaker 1: to take a fresh look at Bobby's case. But most
2:52
Speaker 1: of the original documentation was gone, including the police files
2:56
Speaker 1: and the autopsy report, so all that he could find
2:59
Speaker 1: was a single report which had been written by the
3:01
Speaker 1: Rocky Mountain National Park Superintendent about the discovery of Bobby's remains.
3:06
Speaker 1: But still Bond noticed a very weird discrepancy in the
3:10
Speaker 1: report because even though he would had claimed that he
3:13
Speaker 1: found bobby scapula and a scrap of clothing on July
3:17
Speaker 1: the third, nineteen fifty one, and then brought it back
3:19
Speaker 1: to the camp's director, Reverend Richard Heaster, according to this
3:23
Speaker 1: report from the Rocky Mountain National Park Superintendent, a Reverend
3:27
Speaker 1: Heaster did not actually report these findings until Monday, July third,
3:31
Speaker 1: three days after the fact, and that's when they started
3:34
Speaker 1: the search efforts. And they're thinking, okay, like, why would
3:37
Speaker 1: you wait three whole days to talk about to report
3:39
Speaker 1: the discovery of a bone or clothing, especially if you
3:43
Speaker 1: believe that it's connected to a child who went missing
3:45
Speaker 1: from your camp one year earlier. So this makes alarm
3:48
Speaker 1: bells GoF on my head, saying, are they fabricating a
3:51
Speaker 1: cover story here? Like are they maybe thinking we're going
3:53
Speaker 1: to sprinkle some remains in this area for the searchers
3:56
Speaker 1: to find, and then when they find them, they'll just
3:59
Speaker 1: fay say that Bobby's dad closed the investigation and no
4:02
Speaker 1: one will be suspicious of us. But of course nobody
4:05
Speaker 1: found this suspicious back in nineteen fifty nine because everyone's thinking, oh,
4:08
Speaker 1: it's a priest who runs a summer camp for kids.
4:11
Speaker 1: There's no way he would do anything nefarious. But of
4:14
Speaker 1: course all these years have passed and they know about
4:16
Speaker 1: cover ups by the Catholic Church. So Kevin Bond is
4:19
Speaker 1: now looking at this report with a major suspicion.
4:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is super suspicious, Like why would you hold
4:26
Speaker 2: back that information? I guess there's multiple options. Somebody might
4:31
Speaker 2: have had possession of the remains and thought, okay, we
4:33
Speaker 2: better plant some remains because we want investigators to think
4:37
Speaker 2: that they've been recovered. Then everybody stops looking and then
4:41
Speaker 2: we're left to do what we're gonna do and not
4:45
Speaker 2: have like law enforcement and the family constantly looking for Bobby,
4:49
Speaker 2: or they did genuinely come upon the remains because somebody
4:54
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, well this is where they are. I
4:56
Speaker 2: honestly feel as though they were closing ranks during those
4:59
Speaker 2: few days though, because there had to even talks about
5:02
Speaker 2: how are we going to play this, how are we
5:03
Speaker 2: going to put this out there, how will this be perceived,
5:06
Speaker 2: and what kind of pr can we do to get
5:08
Speaker 2: behind this because at the time people weren't looking and
5:13
Speaker 2: assuming that something bad would have happened to him. But
5:15
Speaker 2: when you're the ones who are doing bad things, I
5:18
Speaker 2: think it's pretty easy to assume that all eyes are
5:20
Speaker 2: going to be looking at you.
5:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much. And I think that if this case
5:24
Speaker 1: had happened today and a boy had gone missing under
5:26
Speaker 1: similar circumstances, people would look at these details with a
5:29
Speaker 1: lot more suspicion. By nineteen fifty nine was just a
5:33
Speaker 1: more innocent time. And if this wasn't a strategy, it
5:36
Speaker 1: technically did work because no one found anything weird about
5:39
Speaker 1: their discovery of Bobby's remains for over sixty years, So
5:43
Speaker 1: you can understand why they might have been compelled to
5:45
Speaker 1: do this, so obviously, Kevin Vaughn wanted to interview Reverend
5:50
Speaker 1: Richard Heister, but he had passed away sometime during the
5:52
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. But he was able to track down his nephew,
5:56
Speaker 1: who was also named Richard, and he had been eleven
5:59
Speaker 1: years old at the time and also attending Camp Saint
6:02
Speaker 1: Malo at the time Bobby went missing. And to make
6:05
Speaker 1: things even more weird, Richard recalled an incident which took
6:08
Speaker 1: place on the day Bobby went missing, where he was
6:11
Speaker 1: in a gathering hall with a group of other campers
6:13
Speaker 1: when a boy suddenly pushed Richard out of the way
6:16
Speaker 1: and ran past him, and Richard said that he recalled
6:19
Speaker 1: the boy seemed very upset and was saying a bunch
6:21
Speaker 1: of unintelligible stuff before he headed outside. And because we
6:25
Speaker 1: know that Bobby was hearing impaired and had difficulties speaking,
6:29
Speaker 1: Richard believed that the boy might have been him and
6:32
Speaker 1: that this took place right before he went missing. And
6:34
Speaker 1: of course, since over sixty years had passed, it's possible
6:37
Speaker 1: he wasn't remembering things correctly. But Vaughn was able to
6:40
Speaker 1: track down a man named Roger Contour, who had been
6:43
Speaker 1: a subdistrict ranger at Rocky Mountain National Park at the
6:46
Speaker 1: time and was involved in the recovery of Bobby's remains,
6:50
Speaker 1: and he said that he had been told by other
6:52
Speaker 1: people from the camp that Bobby seemed extremely upset about
6:55
Speaker 1: something right before he went missing. And this is the
6:58
Speaker 1: first time anyone ever heard this story, because, like I
7:00
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, the official story back in nineteen fifty eight
7:04
Speaker 1: is that Bobby had been fishing by the creek. Everything
7:06
Speaker 1: looked completely normal, and he was asked to come back
7:09
Speaker 1: to the mess hall for suffer before he suddenly disappeared.
7:11
Speaker 1: But now we're getting another different story about the circumstances
7:15
Speaker 1: of how he went missing.
7:17
Speaker 2: And so this opens up the possibility that something could
7:20
Speaker 2: have happened to Bobby, and Bobby trying to get away
7:24
Speaker 2: from his abuser, or whatever happened, he ran into the woods,
7:29
Speaker 2: got lost, maybe tripped and fell, hit his head and
7:33
Speaker 2: succumbed to the elements. We have that option, or we
7:36
Speaker 2: have the option that somebody could have chased after him
7:39
Speaker 2: and did something to him and ended his life.
7:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true. Even if Bobby was abused that day,
7:46
Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean he was murdered, as your other
7:49
Speaker 1: scenario could also be true, where he was so upset
7:52
Speaker 1: that he decided to run away into the woods and
7:54
Speaker 1: got lost and then died of exposure, but there would
7:56
Speaker 1: still be accountability from the camp and the council who
8:00
Speaker 1: were responsible for it. So that's why they wanted to
8:02
Speaker 1: start digging deeper into this. And I know some people
8:06
Speaker 1: could question Richard Heaster's story because he was only eleven
8:09
Speaker 1: years old at the time, in sixty years had passed.
8:12
Speaker 1: But one thing I find refreshing about Richard is his
8:14
Speaker 1: openness and honesty because he knows this does not paint
8:18
Speaker 1: his uncle in a very promising light, because obviously, if
8:22
Speaker 1: Bobby was being abused at the camp and his uncle
8:24
Speaker 1: helped cover it up, then that looks really bad for him.
8:27
Speaker 1: But Richard has said that even though I admired my uncle,
8:30
Speaker 1: that this is not the type of man I remembered
8:32
Speaker 1: that if he was involved in something bad, then I
8:35
Speaker 1: only want the truth to come out. So that's why
8:37
Speaker 1: I find his account of Bobby seeing very upset and
8:40
Speaker 1: running away to be credible, that it's something he may
8:43
Speaker 1: have remembered vividly all these years, but now that all
8:45
Speaker 1: this new information about sexual abuse cover up has come out,
8:49
Speaker 1: he's now looking at this incident in a totally different light.
8:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't see him having a vested interest in
8:55
Speaker 2: putting forth like some false narrative that could make his
8:58
Speaker 2: uncle look bad in some way. I think if you're
9:01
Speaker 2: confronting the idea that your uncle could have been involved
9:04
Speaker 2: in the sexual abuse of children, then when you go
9:08
Speaker 2: when you put a story out like that and you
9:10
Speaker 2: say this is what I perceived happened, this boy could
9:13
Speaker 2: have been Bobby, you know that it could be further
9:15
Speaker 2: damaging the reputation. So I would think that his motivation
9:21
Speaker 2: being that. I'm sure there was pressure from family members,
9:24
Speaker 2: because typically there is in these type of situations. People
9:27
Speaker 2: don't want their names sullied, and so to speak out
9:30
Speaker 2: like that is a really courageous thing to do. And
9:33
Speaker 2: I don't think that he would be getting any reward
9:36
Speaker 2: for speaking out, you know what I mean, Like his
9:38
Speaker 2: family isn't going to be like, good for you, you're
9:40
Speaker 2: looking for the truth. I mean maybe, but I think
9:43
Speaker 2: there's a strong likelihood that he could feel pressure to
9:46
Speaker 2: just say.
9:46
Speaker 1: Nothing exactly, Like I can't say this for certain, but
9:50
Speaker 1: I'd say there's probably a good chance that there's some
9:52
Speaker 1: other people in Richard's family who are not happy that
9:55
Speaker 1: he's sharing this story because his uncle was a very
9:58
Speaker 1: respected man who had a reputation while he was alive,
10:02
Speaker 1: and now all this stuff is coming out decades after
10:04
Speaker 1: the fat which paints him in a very negative light.
10:07
Speaker 1: So it is very courageous that Richard is saying this
10:10
Speaker 1: knowing that he could potentially alienate some of the other
10:12
Speaker 1: people in his family who he cares about. But even so,
10:15
Speaker 1: like the more Kevin Vaughan looked into this, the more
10:18
Speaker 1: it seemed odd that Bobby would have died of exposure
10:21
Speaker 1: on that mountain side where his remains were found, because
10:24
Speaker 1: when he looked closer into it, he realized that from
10:27
Speaker 1: that mountain, Bobby would have had a clear view of
10:29
Speaker 1: Cant Saint Malo in the distance, so if he had
10:31
Speaker 1: gotten lost, he probably would have been able to find
10:34
Speaker 1: his way back because the mountain was also near Cabin Creek,
10:38
Speaker 1: where Bobby had supposedly been fishing before he disappeared, so
10:41
Speaker 1: he easily could have just followed the creek back to
10:44
Speaker 1: the camp. So that doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't
10:47
Speaker 1: dive of exposure, like maybe he didn't get lost, but
10:50
Speaker 1: he was so scared of the counselors that he was
10:52
Speaker 1: hiding from in the mountain, and then that's when he
10:54
Speaker 1: succumbed to the elements and died. But because of these discrepancies,
10:58
Speaker 1: the National Parks Are his investigative services branch announced that
11:02
Speaker 1: they were going to open up a new investigation into
11:04
Speaker 1: Bobby's case over sixty years after the fact. So they
11:07
Speaker 1: created a profile page to the cold case section on
11:10
Speaker 1: their website, and while they didn't have enough evidence to
11:13
Speaker 1: label his death a homicide, they did label his case
11:16
Speaker 1: as a suspicious deaths which is pretty remarkable because how
11:20
Speaker 1: many other cases where people died. Are they going to
11:22
Speaker 1: reopen a new investigation sixty years after the fact.
11:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty wild, and based on everything that we know,
11:30
Speaker 2: it's so hard to be able to tell exactly what
11:33
Speaker 2: happened here. I think it's clear that some kind of
11:36
Speaker 2: cover up happened, But what isn't clear is if Bobby died,
11:41
Speaker 2: because there's so many things that could happen in that
11:44
Speaker 2: short period of time. Like you said, if he was
11:46
Speaker 2: afraid of the counselors, if something had happened and he
11:49
Speaker 2: was abused and he thought, well, I'm just going to
11:51
Speaker 2: stick it out out here, and he got too cold
11:54
Speaker 2: at night, he got dehydrated. You know, we can't go
11:57
Speaker 2: a long time without water or food. Well food, we
12:00
Speaker 2: can go a long time without, but not water. So
12:03
Speaker 2: he could have become dehydrated and confused. He could have
12:06
Speaker 2: fallen and like I said earlier, hit his head. He
12:09
Speaker 2: could have injured his leg like we saw with Chris
12:12
Speaker 2: Kramer's and Leanne Frum right, looks like the most likely
12:16
Speaker 2: scenario there was, not that they were murdered, was that
12:18
Speaker 2: one of them I can't remember which one was injured,
12:21
Speaker 2: and that they both stayed together and both ended up
12:25
Speaker 2: succumbing to the elements.
12:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's very well. What could have happened to
12:29
Speaker 1: Bobby that even if he knew his way back to
12:31
Speaker 1: the camp, like, he could have still succumbed to the
12:33
Speaker 1: elements just because he didn't want to go back. I remember,
12:36
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily know that he died of that mountside,
12:39
Speaker 1: because we've been sharing theories that maybe the remains were
12:42
Speaker 1: planted that location, so he could have died somewhere else.
12:46
Speaker 1: But one thing I wanted to mention is that the
12:48
Speaker 1: official story of Bobby going missing while he was fishing
12:50
Speaker 1: at the creek that was provided by another councilor named
12:54
Speaker 1: Terry Cowan. He has never been accused of any wrongdoing
12:57
Speaker 1: or sexual abuse, so I don't know if he's lying
13:00
Speaker 1: or fabricating the story about Bobby disappearing. But still, when
13:04
Speaker 1: you hear like the account of Bobby looking upset and
13:07
Speaker 1: the whole story from Hewitt about Bobby going to the
13:09
Speaker 1: snack bar and getting upset that he couldn't get candy,
13:12
Speaker 1: it makes you wonder if that whole story about Bobby
13:14
Speaker 1: fishing by the creek actually happened. And I mentioned earlier
13:19
Speaker 1: that his fishing pole and his carton of worms were
13:21
Speaker 1: found in the woods like half a mile away, But
13:24
Speaker 1: it now makes me wonder would Bobby have really taken
13:26
Speaker 1: these items and then just drop them, or were these
13:29
Speaker 1: items planted in order to make it look like Bobby
13:31
Speaker 1: ran off into the forest and got lost.
13:34
Speaker 2: Some kind of lazy subterfuge like, oh, yes, he's gonna
13:37
Speaker 2: run away and think to take his worms with him.
13:39
Speaker 2: If you were truly scared, or you were running away
13:42
Speaker 2: and you're running away from that water source, Why would
13:45
Speaker 2: you bring your fishing pole, Like, it's pretty cumbersome to
13:47
Speaker 2: run with a fishing rod or fishing pole and to
13:51
Speaker 2: carry a carton of worms. It just seems a little
13:53
Speaker 2: bit ridiculous. So, yeah, maybe it's possible that earlier that
13:57
Speaker 2: day he was fishing, and so there's some partial truth there.
14:00
Speaker 2: Maybe he was told to change the time in which
14:04
Speaker 2: he saw Bobby. Maybe he saw him at like eleven o'clock,
14:06
Speaker 2: and then it's like, okay, well, let's just say that
14:08
Speaker 2: it was a little bit later, and then somebody else
14:10
Speaker 2: planted those there. But there's any number of scenarios that
14:14
Speaker 2: could have happened. Like you said, somebody could have abducted him,
14:17
Speaker 2: taken him elsewhere, and then when Hewitt finds the remains,
14:22
Speaker 2: it's like, this is the agreed upon location that they've
14:25
Speaker 2: been planted. And there's even the possibility that he genuinely
14:28
Speaker 2: could have just found him for the first time, even
14:30
Speaker 2: though I don't think that's very likely. There's just so
14:33
Speaker 2: many things that are in play here.
14:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the issue is because nobody investigated this
14:39
Speaker 1: until decades after the fact, So most of the people
14:41
Speaker 1: who would have first hand knowledge have since passed away,
14:44
Speaker 1: Like I'd really like to reinterview Terry Cowan to hear
14:48
Speaker 1: him tell that account of Bobby being fishing at the creek,
14:50
Speaker 1: But I don't think he's still alive. And one of
14:52
Speaker 1: the few counselors that lived long enough to tell his
14:55
Speaker 1: account is Neil Hewitt, and obviously you can't trust him.
14:59
Speaker 2: No, and callen. It would be really interesting to hear
15:02
Speaker 2: from him now if he were still alive, because him
15:06
Speaker 2: being one of the ones that was not accused of
15:09
Speaker 2: sexually abusing the children. So if he was innocent of
15:13
Speaker 2: all that and went through his entire career being like
15:16
Speaker 2: an upstanding individual, then I would be really curious in
15:20
Speaker 2: his twilight years how he would feel about all this
15:24
Speaker 2: and if he would potentially disclose some more information and
15:28
Speaker 2: at least let us know if his account was true
15:31
Speaker 2: or not.
15:32
Speaker 1: It's true, Like if he was a seminary student, he
15:34
Speaker 1: was probably thinking that while everything I'm doing is the
15:37
Speaker 1: word of God here. So if my superior is, like
15:40
Speaker 1: the camp director, tell me to do something and feed
15:43
Speaker 1: a false story, then I'll do it because that's what
15:46
Speaker 1: my position. I'm a seminary student, I'm with the church,
15:48
Speaker 1: so I have to follow what they say. But of course,
15:51
Speaker 1: years in retrospect, hearing that other counselors have been sexually
15:54
Speaker 1: abusing children there, I could see him wanting to open
15:57
Speaker 1: up if he didn't do anything wrong on his own,
16:00
Speaker 1: Maybe he's looking at everything in a different light and
16:02
Speaker 1: now thinks that a lot of the stuff he witnessed
16:04
Speaker 1: back then is a lot more suspicious in retrospect. Yeah.
16:07
Speaker 2: We talked earlier about the power dynamic between a child
16:10
Speaker 2: attending the camp and a seminary student, and we've got
16:14
Speaker 2: a similar power dynamic between a seminary student and those
16:17
Speaker 2: who are a priest or the camp director, where you
16:20
Speaker 2: got an older and more established person who has that
16:23
Speaker 2: quote unquote like direct line to God. So I would
16:26
Speaker 2: think that it would be very easy to look at
16:29
Speaker 2: one of these seminary students and they would be malleable,
16:32
Speaker 2: They would be very impressionable, and more likely than not
16:36
Speaker 2: to go along with what you're saying as literal gospel.
16:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there's a good chance that is
16:42
Speaker 1: what happened. So in December of twenty twenty, the Colorado
16:46
Speaker 1: Attorney General's Office released a special Masters Supplemental Report containing
16:50
Speaker 1: additional child sexual abuse allegations which it surfaced against Catholic
16:55
Speaker 1: priests from Colorado because they have released the original report
16:58
Speaker 1: a year and a half earlier, but now more people
17:00
Speaker 1: had come forward, so the numbers had now increased to
17:04
Speaker 1: fifty two priests being accused of molesting at least two
17:07
Speaker 1: hundred and twelve children. And one of the new priests
17:10
Speaker 1: who got accused was a guy named Gerald Roppola. A
17:13
Speaker 1: man had come forward and said that Roppola had sexually
17:16
Speaker 1: abused him, only he was a teenager in nineteen sixty seven.
17:19
Speaker 1: Much like these other priests, he had been a Ropola
17:22
Speaker 1: had been transferred around a lot and was actually removed
17:25
Speaker 1: from the ministry in nineteen seventy in order to participate
17:28
Speaker 1: in professional counseling, and he was on one year leave
17:32
Speaker 1: of absence before he died of cancer in March of
17:34
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one. But what's particularly interesting is that it
17:38
Speaker 1: turned out that Ropola had also been a seminary student
17:41
Speaker 1: at Camp Saint Malo during the summer of nineteen fifty eight, So,
17:45
Speaker 1: along with Neil Hewitt and Harold Robert White, this was
17:47
Speaker 1: no less than three different priests who had been accused
17:50
Speaker 1: of sexually abusing children who are counselors at the camp
17:54
Speaker 1: at that time. So there's just a number of predators
17:56
Speaker 1: there all there simultaneously who could have potentially demise Bobby.
18:01
Speaker 2: That is terrifying. This camp was like a repository for
18:05
Speaker 2: child predators. Is that where they sent the pedophiles? And
18:09
Speaker 2: to think that they're all seminary students at this point,
18:12
Speaker 2: they're not even priests. So it's that chicken or the
18:15
Speaker 2: egg question, right. Is it that they decided to go
18:19
Speaker 2: onto this path because they knew that they would have
18:21
Speaker 2: access to children, or is it because this path was
18:24
Speaker 2: very limiting for them sexually so they then turned to
18:28
Speaker 2: predating on children. It's really convoluted and confusing, and they've
18:33
Speaker 2: done studies on this where the priesthood within the Catholic
18:38
Speaker 2: Church where you can't marry, that those who wouldn't necessarily
18:43
Speaker 2: be pedophiles would engage in pedophilic behavior. So I don't
18:49
Speaker 2: know what the stats are exactly and what they would
18:52
Speaker 2: be for seminary students, but I'm wondering if it's like
18:56
Speaker 2: the Boy Scouts where we saw such a huge number
18:59
Speaker 2: of young boys who were accused by their Boy Scout
19:03
Speaker 2: leaders and You've got to think the same with the
19:04
Speaker 2: seminary students. Are you going into this because you know
19:08
Speaker 2: there's guaranteed access to kids?
19:10
Speaker 1: That's what I'm wondering as well, because, like we mentioned,
19:12
Speaker 1: this was not common knowledge in the nineteen fifties that
19:15
Speaker 1: if you were a priest who abuse children that the
19:17
Speaker 1: church will help cover it up for you. These are
19:20
Speaker 1: just seminary students who are really low on the toting
19:22
Speaker 1: pol So how could they know that if they did
19:25
Speaker 1: this to these children of this camp, they'd managed to
19:28
Speaker 1: get away with it. But it makes me wonder if
19:29
Speaker 1: word had spread saying that if you are attracted to
19:32
Speaker 1: children and you want to abuse them and get away
19:34
Speaker 1: with it, then this is the camp to go because
19:36
Speaker 1: they will cover up for you.
19:38
Speaker 2: And like, You've got to wonder what would have been
19:41
Speaker 2: the type of network that pedophiles would have used to communicate,
19:45
Speaker 2: because we know that pre Internet, there's ways that pedophiles
19:49
Speaker 2: would communicate and share material, and I guess decide on
19:53
Speaker 2: places or populations that would be more vulnerable in that
19:59
Speaker 2: they would be easy you're to victimize. But you've got
20:01
Speaker 2: to wonder in nineteen fifty eight, how would one who
20:04
Speaker 2: has that type of a predilection gain information on what
20:10
Speaker 2: would be a good place for them to predate on children.
20:13
Speaker 2: I don't know how you would get that information back then.
20:17
Speaker 1: I don't either, but you might recall that earlier I
20:20
Speaker 1: mentioned that the camp's original founder, father Gerald Bassetti, had
20:24
Speaker 1: also been accused of sexually abusing children. And this camp
20:27
Speaker 1: had been around for two decades, so I have to
20:29
Speaker 1: think that word must have spread and that maybe these
20:32
Speaker 1: pedophiles like received information knowing that if you want to
20:36
Speaker 1: go to a place where you can abuse children freely,
20:38
Speaker 1: this camp would be the ideal place.
20:40
Speaker 2: I would be really interested to know if any of
20:43
Speaker 2: these camp counselors attended this camp when they themselves were children.
20:49
Speaker 1: That's a good point, like maybe they underwent it and
20:51
Speaker 1: then realized that they wanted to inflict it upon other
20:54
Speaker 1: victims when they were put into a position of power. So,
20:57
Speaker 1: after these new allegations came out about Gerald, repol nine
21:01
Speaker 1: News in Denver aired a new twenty minute documentary titled
21:04
Speaker 1: Mystery of Mount Meeker, which revealed all the new details
21:07
Speaker 1: about this sexual abuse scandal and also the new details
21:10
Speaker 1: that have been dug up in Bobby Bisop's case and
21:14
Speaker 1: in May of twenty twenty one, that's when the most
21:16
Speaker 1: shocking announcement was made in this case, when the media
21:19
Speaker 1: revealed that a Denver based doctor named Tom McCloskey had
21:23
Speaker 1: come forward after watching the documentary and presented the authorities
21:27
Speaker 1: with a human skull that belonged to a child. And
21:31
Speaker 1: the issue with this is that even though Tom McCloskey
21:34
Speaker 1: has allowed the media to share the details of his story,
21:37
Speaker 1: he has never agreed to be formally interviewed. So there
21:40
Speaker 1: are a lot of questions I have of the circumstances
21:43
Speaker 1: of how this takes place, but unfortunately he has not
21:45
Speaker 1: been around to answer them. But the story that has
21:48
Speaker 1: been reported is that Tom's father, Joseph McCloskey, had also
21:51
Speaker 1: worked as a doctor, and when Joseph passed away in
21:54
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, his son took possession of this skull, and
21:58
Speaker 1: while Tom said he could not remember too many details,
22:00
Speaker 1: he said that his father had told him that the
22:02
Speaker 1: skull may have belonged to a boy who had disappeared
22:05
Speaker 1: from a camp and for years. Tom said that he
22:08
Speaker 1: tried to identify the skull by checking through old news
22:11
Speaker 1: articles about the disappearances of young boys, but had no
22:14
Speaker 1: luck finding a match, so he just decided to spend
22:16
Speaker 1: the next four decades keeping the skull inside a paper
22:20
Speaker 1: sack in his basement. But then when he watched the
22:22
Speaker 1: documentary Mystery amount Meeker and learned about the disappearance of
22:26
Speaker 1: Bobby Bisop, he started to wonder if maybe the skull
22:29
Speaker 1: belonged to Bobby, And that's when he decided to come forward.
22:33
Speaker 1: And I know you're gonna have the obvious question here,
22:35
Speaker 1: why did he keep the skull for four decades without
22:38
Speaker 1: saying anything? But unfortunately, since Tom has never been interviewed,
22:41
Speaker 1: we don't know the answers to those questions.
22:44
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all very weird, but I would think
22:48
Speaker 2: that it would be really complex for him because if
22:52
Speaker 2: it was his father that could have been responsible for
22:55
Speaker 2: what happened to this child, then I would think that
22:59
Speaker 2: he might have conflicting emotions on turning that skull over
23:03
Speaker 2: because in doing so, he could implicate his father in
23:07
Speaker 2: the murder of that child. Why did he have it?
23:10
Speaker 2: And so I'm sure that he wrestled internally with his
23:13
Speaker 2: feelings of I should turn this over, I should keep this,
23:16
Speaker 2: do I protect my dad's legacy? It looks on the surface,
23:19
Speaker 2: very very odd. But I think that there is his
23:23
Speaker 2: relationship to his father and their family named to consider,
23:27
Speaker 2: and I guess at the very least we can be
23:30
Speaker 2: thankful for the fact that he came forward at the
23:32
Speaker 2: end and turned over the skull and gave some information,
23:37
Speaker 2: But without a formal interview, there's so many questions left unanswered.
23:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one explanation I've seen push forward is because
23:45
Speaker 1: his father was a doctor that at the time he
23:48
Speaker 1: may have felt that wasn't unusual because as more of
23:50
Speaker 1: it as it sounds, doctors sometimes did bring human remains
23:53
Speaker 1: home for experimentation. So I'm sure he didn't think that
23:56
Speaker 1: his father was a serial killer or anything. Back in
23:59
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty when he passed away, he probably thought, well, maybe
24:01
Speaker 1: he got this skull from his work or something like that,
24:04
Speaker 1: and it belonged to a deceased child whose family had
24:07
Speaker 1: allowed him to take the remains for medical research or something.
24:11
Speaker 1: You might recall an episode we did several months ago
24:14
Speaker 1: about the disappearances of a couple named Glenn and Bessie
24:17
Speaker 1: Hyde who went missing in the Grand Canyon on a
24:19
Speaker 1: rafting trip in nineteen twenty eight, And you also might
24:22
Speaker 1: recall a weird detail about this case where they stopped
24:25
Speaker 1: to see a local photographer named Emery Colb, and then
24:29
Speaker 1: like nearly fifty years later, cole fasts away and then
24:32
Speaker 1: his grandson found some human remains but a gunshot wound
24:36
Speaker 1: in his boat house and people are thinking, oh my god,
24:38
Speaker 1: Emory Colb is a murderer. Maybe he killed Glenn Hyde
24:42
Speaker 1: and the remains belonged to him. But then the full
24:44
Speaker 1: story came out that the remains belonged to an unidentified
24:47
Speaker 1: John Doe who had shot himself in the Grand Canyon
24:50
Speaker 1: sometime during the nineteen thirties, and that Emory Colb had
24:53
Speaker 1: been on the corner's jury. And because this young man
24:57
Speaker 1: was never identified and no one came forward to claim
24:59
Speaker 1: his remains, Coleb decided to take the remains home put
25:02
Speaker 1: them in his boat house on the off chance that
25:05
Speaker 1: this man's family would come forward to claim them. But
25:08
Speaker 1: he just kind of forgot about them for four decades,
25:10
Speaker 1: and then people discover the remains after he died in
25:13
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, and his grandson is given a complete shock,
25:17
Speaker 1: But it turned out he had the remains for completely
25:19
Speaker 1: harmless reasons. So maybe a similar thing happened with Joseph McCloskey,
25:23
Speaker 1: or maybe that's what Tom thought.
25:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's completely possible, and who knows. It doesn't mean
25:29
Speaker 2: just because he had possession of the skull that he
25:32
Speaker 2: was involved in what happened, because say one of these
25:35
Speaker 2: seminary students or one of the priests, they had the
25:39
Speaker 2: skull and they thought, okay, this is the part of
25:41
Speaker 2: Bobby that could be identified. What if we give the
25:44
Speaker 2: skull to a doctor friend and we say, yeah, this
25:49
Speaker 2: boy had disappeared. They found the remains, but like, here's
25:52
Speaker 2: the skull, or the remains haven't been found. I don't
25:54
Speaker 2: know how you would word that and how it wouldn't
25:56
Speaker 2: come off as super sucks and that the doctor wouldn't
25:59
Speaker 2: then go to the Maybe it was hard to procure
26:02
Speaker 2: a child's skull, so it was like they'll take it,
26:05
Speaker 2: even though it seems to be tinged with like some
26:08
Speaker 2: major nefarious activity. I don't know any scenario where you
26:12
Speaker 2: would accept that.
26:14
Speaker 1: I mean, to be fair, there was anything nefarious associated
26:18
Speaker 1: with Bobby's case back in nineteen fifty nine. They just
26:20
Speaker 1: assumed that he died of exposure. But even so, like
26:23
Speaker 1: I'm sure Bobby's family would want his skull back if
26:27
Speaker 1: it belonged to him, rather than someone keeping it. And
26:30
Speaker 1: the main reason that Tom thought it was connected to
26:32
Speaker 1: Bobby is because his father had been a prominent member
26:35
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church and was very close friends with
26:38
Speaker 1: the camp's former director, Reverend Heaster. And even though law
26:42
Speaker 1: enforcement hasn't commented on this officially, Reverend Heaster's nephew, Richard,
26:47
Speaker 1: has claimed that federal authorities told him that they believed
26:50
Speaker 1: that his uncle had been in possession of the skull
26:53
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, decided to give it to Joseph McCloskey,
26:56
Speaker 1: and then when Joseph passed away, he passed it along
26:59
Speaker 1: to his son. That only brings up the question why
27:02
Speaker 1: would Reverend he Easter have this skull in his possession
27:04
Speaker 1: in the first place.
27:06
Speaker 2: Well, I would think that you would either be complicit
27:08
Speaker 2: in the murder or complicit in a cover up, whether
27:11
Speaker 2: or not he died at the hands of somebody at
27:14
Speaker 2: that camp or he passed away, for I needs to
27:18
Speaker 2: come to the elements, which is possible as well. And
27:22
Speaker 2: then they found him and were like, oh, we better
27:25
Speaker 2: cover this up. And at the time, dental records were
27:27
Speaker 2: the only way that you were going to be identifying
27:29
Speaker 2: a Bobby. They might not have thought so far ahead
27:32
Speaker 2: as the hearing aid, but maybe again they did. But
27:36
Speaker 2: then the question is, Okay, so they wanted Bobby to
27:41
Speaker 2: be discovered, They wanted his remains to be known, so
27:45
Speaker 2: that's why they if they did sprinkle the remains there,
27:47
Speaker 2: they put his hearing aid there. But then the question
27:51
Speaker 2: is why not his skull? Then if you're just trying
27:54
Speaker 2: to get the heat off, why keep the skull? Was
27:56
Speaker 2: this some kind of serial killer like moment toe type
28:00
Speaker 2: thing where it's like, well, I'm going to keep a souvenir.
28:03
Speaker 1: Well. Some people had speculated initially that maybe there were
28:06
Speaker 1: signs of trauma to the skull to prove foul play,
28:09
Speaker 1: but even though law enforcement has not confirmed this, I
28:11
Speaker 1: do not believe this is the case, because, believe it
28:14
Speaker 1: or not, Bobby still has some surviving relatives, and they
28:17
Speaker 1: actually gave the authorities permission to put a photograph of
28:20
Speaker 1: this skull and publish it in the media, so you
28:23
Speaker 1: can't see it online. And from the naked eye, it
28:25
Speaker 1: doesn't look like there are any signs of any gunshot
28:28
Speaker 1: wounds or trauma or blunt force trauma. So if that's
28:31
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking, if Bobby truly did go into the
28:33
Speaker 1: elements and die of exposure, why would they hold onto
28:36
Speaker 1: the skull. But another theory that has been pushed forward
28:39
Speaker 1: is that even if Reverend Heaster was not personally complicit
28:42
Speaker 1: in Bobby's death, he may have felt some sort of
28:45
Speaker 1: subconscious guilt where if Heaster wasn't abusing children, he was
28:48
Speaker 1: still covering up for the counselors who did. So, he
28:51
Speaker 1: decided to keep the skull as a memento, and then,
28:54
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, years later, decided to give it to
28:57
Speaker 1: Joseph McCloskey because if he was one of his more friends.
29:00
Speaker 1: But if he told any secrets to Joseph, Joseph obviously
29:04
Speaker 1: did not pass them on to his son, because Tom
29:06
Speaker 1: has not shed any light on why his father had
29:09
Speaker 1: this skull, but there are any number of scenarios about
29:12
Speaker 1: why they would he would have had the skull in
29:13
Speaker 1: this possession, And unfortunately, because most of the people with
29:16
Speaker 1: the direct knowledge are now deceased, we can only speculate.
29:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's since we know that he was accused
29:23
Speaker 2: of sexual abuse, and typically when it comes to institutional
29:28
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, the fish rots from the head, and so
29:31
Speaker 2: you have somebody that is predating on children, and then
29:35
Speaker 2: you have other people who are underneath him that think, okay,
29:38
Speaker 2: this is acceptable behavior. So I could see a scenario
29:42
Speaker 2: like you said, where he might not have been directly
29:45
Speaker 2: responsible for Bobby's death, but he felt responsible because he
29:49
Speaker 2: created the culture that allowed that to happen.
29:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should clarify that at the time this information
29:55
Speaker 1: came out, Reverend Heaster himself had not been accused of
29:58
Speaker 1: any sexual abuse. It was just a lot of the
30:00
Speaker 1: counselors who were working under him. But in May of
30:03
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, another victim named Michael Stinho came forward
30:07
Speaker 1: and has filed a lawsuit against the Denver Catholic Church
30:11
Speaker 1: alleging that when he was an altar boy at Notrum
30:15
Speaker 1: Church in Denver during the nineteen sixties, he was personally
30:18
Speaker 1: abused by Reverend Heaster. So this is the first allegation
30:21
Speaker 1: against Heaster that has come out. He hasn't been accused
30:24
Speaker 1: of abusing anyone at Camp Saint Malo yet because this
30:27
Speaker 1: took place years after the fact. But once you learn this,
30:30
Speaker 1: you could realize that even though he might have some
30:33
Speaker 1: subconscious guilt about his counselors doing it. It's also possible
30:36
Speaker 1: that he was doing it himself and that, for reasons unknown,
30:39
Speaker 1: he decided to hold on to Bobby's skull.
30:42
Speaker 2: And it just makes me think like nobody else had
30:45
Speaker 2: come forward to accuse him of sexual abuse. It just
30:48
Speaker 2: makes me wonder how many victims there are that are
30:51
Speaker 2: out there, or how many survivors that are out there
30:54
Speaker 2: that just don't share their stories. It's sort of like
30:57
Speaker 2: when we look at serial killers and we're studying serial killers,
31:00
Speaker 2: but we're only studying the ones that get caught, so
31:03
Speaker 2: we're missing out on so much information. And I think
31:06
Speaker 2: the same goes for these victims of religious sexual abuse,
31:09
Speaker 2: because it's very difficult to come forward and we're only
31:13
Speaker 2: literally getting the tip of the iceberg.
31:16
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. Because Michael Stano, the guy who has filed
31:18
Speaker 1: his lawsuit, he claimed that he had blocked this abuse
31:21
Speaker 1: completely out of his memory for decades and it just
31:24
Speaker 1: suddenly came back in twenty twenty two. All these repress memories.
31:28
Speaker 1: I think he had had been having like a confrontation
31:30
Speaker 1: with his family where he was very heated in stress,
31:33
Speaker 1: and then all these repressed memories came back and He
31:35
Speaker 1: says it was not only Reverend Heaster, but at least
31:38
Speaker 1: two other priests as well who sexually abused him during
31:41
Speaker 1: his childhood. That I think he had just completely blocked
31:43
Speaker 1: out for a long time, which is why he did
31:46
Speaker 1: not file his lawsuit until twenty twenty four. But makes
31:50
Speaker 1: me wonder if there are other like survivors just like
31:52
Speaker 1: him who have been abused and have just completely blocked
31:55
Speaker 1: it out and it may not even come back until
31:57
Speaker 1: sometime many years after the fact.
32:00
Speaker 2: Well, the mind is a really remarkable thing, and it
32:02
Speaker 2: will do a lot of things to protect us, and
32:04
Speaker 2: blocking out really traumatic events can be one of those things.
32:08
Speaker 2: But it can be really dangerous because we don't know
32:11
Speaker 2: when that's going to pop back up. And I hope
32:14
Speaker 2: that he was able to process that and integrate what
32:17
Speaker 2: happened and talk to somebody who specializes in sexual abuse,
32:22
Speaker 2: a therapist that really could help him, because to have
32:26
Speaker 2: that realization so many years after the fact, to be
32:30
Speaker 2: a full grown adult with a family, and to then
32:34
Speaker 2: be re traumatized all over again, and to not just
32:37
Speaker 2: have one sexual abuser, but to have several, that.
32:40
Speaker 1: Is a lot exactly, And the fact that this has
32:44
Speaker 1: gone into the courtroom, and that the media has found
32:47
Speaker 1: his story to be credible enough to report on. It
32:49
Speaker 1: makes everyone believe that this actually happened, that this isn't
32:52
Speaker 1: just false memories or a hoax. And I must have
32:55
Speaker 1: a lot to do with the fact that so many
32:57
Speaker 1: other people who worked under Reverend Heaster have been accused
32:59
Speaker 1: of the stuff that everyone just pretty much figures if
33:02
Speaker 1: there's smoke, there's fires, So all these survivors have to
33:05
Speaker 1: be telling the truth. So, as you might recall, in
33:08
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, when this whole story about the skull
33:11
Speaker 1: came out, the true crime community went nuts, like this
33:14
Speaker 1: was posted everywhere on social media, just because it was
33:17
Speaker 1: such an unusual story, and I covered it on the
33:20
Speaker 1: trail went cold a couple years later in twenty twenty three.
33:24
Speaker 1: But when all this stuff was coming to light, there
33:26
Speaker 1: was a great quote made by A. Rich Ormond, the
33:28
Speaker 1: senior deputy district attorney from Colorado's eighteenth Judicial District, who
33:33
Speaker 1: said quote, it's appalling, it's astounding, and to me, it
33:37
Speaker 1: shows a guilty mind. I don't think you do something
33:39
Speaker 1: like this to a family without a guilty mind. It
33:42
Speaker 1: staggers the imagination that a religious organization like the Catholic
33:46
Speaker 1: Church or a portion of the Catholic Church would act
33:49
Speaker 1: in such a fashion. You just don't hide that unless
33:51
Speaker 1: you have something to hide. End quote.
33:54
Speaker 2: I think that is a really good quote, and it
33:56
Speaker 2: kind of hits all those points pretty much.
33:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the it's one thing to cover up the
34:01
Speaker 1: abuse of children, but when there's a potential that a
34:04
Speaker 1: child was murdered and that one of the responsible parties
34:07
Speaker 1: was holding on to his skull for decades, that totally
34:10
Speaker 1: elevates this case to a totally different level. So it
34:13
Speaker 1: should be clarified that it has not yet been one
34:15
Speaker 1: hundred percent confirmed that this skull does belong to Bobby.
34:19
Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty one, it was announced that plans
34:22
Speaker 1: were being made to exhume Bobby's remains for the purposes
34:25
Speaker 1: of DNA testing in order to confirm that the skull
34:28
Speaker 1: did belong to him. But I haven't heard anything since then,
34:31
Speaker 1: And I do know that Bobby does have surviving relatives,
34:34
Speaker 1: so I don't know if any attempts have been made
34:37
Speaker 1: to extract their DNA in order to make a comparison.
34:40
Speaker 1: And it might be a thing where sometimes this family
34:43
Speaker 1: members of these deceased victims had issues with exuming their
34:46
Speaker 1: bodies decades after the facts, so maybe they just have
34:49
Speaker 1: not gotten formal permission from the family. But at the
34:52
Speaker 1: time of this recording, it has not been officially confirmed
34:55
Speaker 1: if this skull does belong to Bobby. But if it
34:58
Speaker 1: belongs to an entirely different a boy, then that only
35:01
Speaker 1: opens up a whole bunch of other unanswered questions.
35:04
Speaker 2: No kidding. I thought that they must have got a
35:07
Speaker 2: positive dental records match because they seem to be speaking
35:11
Speaker 2: with some authority that this was indeed Bobby. But to
35:14
Speaker 2: hear that it hasn't been confirmed, it seems odd to
35:18
Speaker 2: me because there is surviving family and they agreed to
35:21
Speaker 2: have pictures of his skull put on the internet, and
35:24
Speaker 2: that would lead me to believe that they want this
35:26
Speaker 2: to be solved. So there's a strong likelihood that they
35:29
Speaker 2: would volunteer their DNA to be tested. At least somebody
35:33
Speaker 2: would against the DNA and the skull if they're able
35:36
Speaker 2: to extract any of the material from the teeth. So
35:40
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's an issue with their having
35:42
Speaker 2: difficulty extracting DNA from the skull, or if they are
35:47
Speaker 2: having issues with exhuming the body, which seems unnecessary when
35:51
Speaker 2: you have surviving family members.
35:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what's going on. It's possible
35:57
Speaker 1: they may have already done this stuff but are just
35:59
Speaker 1: keeping quiet about it because they don't want to release
36:01
Speaker 1: too much to the public and possibly impede the investigation.
36:05
Speaker 1: DNA testing can be weird because sometimes they can make
36:08
Speaker 1: the identification within days, but then for some reason, in
36:11
Speaker 1: other cases it takes years. Another example of that is
36:15
Speaker 1: the Brand and Loss in case where they found his
36:17
Speaker 1: remains in like twenty twenty two, but I don't think
36:20
Speaker 1: they announced that the DNA had identified him until last year,
36:24
Speaker 1: even though everyone was pretty convinced it was him. So
36:26
Speaker 1: sometimes there are just big delays in doing a positive
36:29
Speaker 1: identification with DNA. And because law enforcement has been pretty
36:33
Speaker 1: tight lipped about this case since twenty twenty one, I
36:36
Speaker 1: have no idea if anything's going on behind the scenes.
36:40
Speaker 1: So the only new development that has taken place was
36:42
Speaker 1: this past September in twenty twenty five, when Neil Hewitt
36:45
Speaker 1: finally passed away at the age of eighty nine. I
36:49
Speaker 1: think he had been in hospice care at that point,
36:51
Speaker 1: and obviously he had not said anything new to shed
36:54
Speaker 1: any light on Bobby's death, and I'm not sure if
36:56
Speaker 1: his mind was in any mental state to offer information.
37:00
Speaker 1: And it is a bittersweet feeling because obviously this guy
37:03
Speaker 1: was a monster who got away with so many horrible
37:05
Speaker 1: crimes when Lee was alive. But at the same time,
37:08
Speaker 1: he may have been one of the last surviving people
37:10
Speaker 1: who knew the truth about what happened to Bobby or
37:13
Speaker 1: offered some insight on what happened to him. But he
37:15
Speaker 1: may have taken those secrets to his grave, So that's
37:18
Speaker 1: one last person who may could shed some light on
37:20
Speaker 1: what happened to Bobby, who is no longer with us.
37:23
Speaker 2: I've gotten nothing to basis on except for the fact
37:26
Speaker 2: that Hewitt found the remains and that he'd been accused
37:30
Speaker 2: by other children of sexually abusing them. But my gut
37:35
Speaker 2: is just telling me that this man had something to
37:37
Speaker 2: do with it.
37:39
Speaker 1: I do agree, like if he had not said those
37:41
Speaker 1: incriminating remarks about how he didn't do anything to Bobby
37:44
Speaker 1: except give him candy, I don't think anyone that would
37:47
Speaker 1: have paid it a second thought if he had just
37:48
Speaker 1: simply said, oh, I remember he disappeared but I don't
37:52
Speaker 1: have any information to offer. I think this story would
37:55
Speaker 1: have died. They just would have assumed that Bobby died
37:57
Speaker 1: of exposure. And even though this whole child sexual abuse
38:00
Speaker 1: allegation scandal still would have been going on, I don't
38:03
Speaker 1: think they would have covered Bobby's story in the media.
38:06
Speaker 1: And then I don't think Tom mcclousey would have come
38:08
Speaker 1: forward with the skull. But once that happened, that opened
38:10
Speaker 1: up a major plan of worms, which made people wonder
38:13
Speaker 1: what happened here, like what happened to Bobby. It's like
38:16
Speaker 1: this could be like a potentially horrific truth that is
38:19
Speaker 1: now coming out over sixty years after the fact, but
38:22
Speaker 1: as it is right now, there are just so many
38:24
Speaker 1: more unanswered questions.
38:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Hewitt's denial of doing anything to Bobby
38:30
Speaker 2: when he wasn't accused was like the nail in the
38:32
Speaker 2: coffin for me, because just from that perspective of statement analysis,
38:37
Speaker 2: when you're not accused of something but you jump right
38:40
Speaker 2: into a denial of it, it's like in your mind
38:43
Speaker 2: you're already prepping for what you're going to be asked,
38:46
Speaker 2: and you assume that somebody's going to accuse you, So
38:49
Speaker 2: why would you assume that somebody's going to accuse you
38:51
Speaker 2: when that certainly wasn't the culture surrounding what was happening
38:55
Speaker 2: at the time. Even though they were up to many
38:58
Speaker 2: evil acts, they weren't accused of it, and they seemed
39:01
Speaker 2: to be able to cover it up till they couldn't.
39:04
Speaker 2: Right until all the accusations come out, until the cover
39:08
Speaker 2: up idea, the idea of bearing it is no longer viable.
39:11
Speaker 2: So jumping right into this weird story about not selling
39:14
Speaker 2: Bobby a candy bar and him running off and how
39:17
Speaker 2: you didn't do anything to him except not sell him candy,
39:20
Speaker 2: he was just so suss and Hewitt finding the remains,
39:24
Speaker 2: it just feels like, as far as suspects go, anybody
39:27
Speaker 2: is up for grabs. But I think there's a strong
39:30
Speaker 2: likelihood that Hewitt was intimately involved in what happened to Bobby.
39:35
Speaker 1: And I'm also thinking we've brought up the possibility that
39:38
Speaker 1: Bobby wasn't murdered, that he was abused and then ran
39:41
Speaker 1: off and died of exposure because he was hiding from
39:43
Speaker 1: his abusers. But if that were the case, you still
39:45
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to prosecute anyone as long as they
39:48
Speaker 1: didn't have any direct involvement in his death, because the
39:50
Speaker 1: statute of limitations would have expired. But if it was
39:53
Speaker 1: an intentional murder and Hewitt deliberately killed him and disposed
39:56
Speaker 1: of his remains, he still could have been prosecuted, even
39:59
Speaker 1: though he was in his eighties at the time. So
40:01
Speaker 1: his weird change of tone where he goes to openly
40:04
Speaker 1: admitting his sexual abuse but then gets so flustered and
40:07
Speaker 1: starts denying things when it comes to Bobby still makes
40:10
Speaker 1: me think that he was paranoid that he could still
40:12
Speaker 1: be prosecuted for something and had a need to cover
40:15
Speaker 1: it up. So yeah, this is a real rabbit hole,
40:17
Speaker 1: and hopefully one of these days we will at least,
40:20
Speaker 1: even if we don't find the full truth about what
40:22
Speaker 1: happened to Bobby, I hope they at least do a
40:24
Speaker 1: DNA test and confirm that the skull belongs to him.
40:27
Speaker 1: And there are just so many like Because most of
40:30
Speaker 1: the people involved in this have since passed away, we
40:32
Speaker 1: may never learn like the full story, but at least
40:35
Speaker 1: it ensures that Bobby isn't forgotten and that he can
40:38
Speaker 1: be remembered as a victim. If he really was one
40:40
Speaker 1: because the idea that he was this hearing impaired boy
40:43
Speaker 1: who was having a great time at this camp that
40:46
Speaker 1: he seemed to really enjoy, but could have been groomed
40:48
Speaker 1: and abused by someone who knew that because of his disadvantages,
40:52
Speaker 1: he'd be an ideal target who couldn't share what happened
40:55
Speaker 1: to him. That is pretty nauseating, and so it is
40:58
Speaker 1: pretty sad that whoever did this to them will probably
41:01
Speaker 1: never see justice in this light. But at least Bobby
41:04
Speaker 1: will be remembered as a victim, and maybe his story
41:07
Speaker 1: will maybe we'll inspire other people who have been abused
41:09
Speaker 1: by priests to come forward after many years as children,
41:12
Speaker 1: now that they are adults, and that's why it's so
41:14
Speaker 1: important for these stories to come out.
41:17
Speaker 2: I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think these cases where
41:21
Speaker 2: there's a strong likelihood because all of the people who
41:24
Speaker 2: are the best suspects here are deceased, that there's a
41:28
Speaker 2: strong likelihood that there might not be justice in the
41:31
Speaker 2: traditional sense. But if we look at how Bobby's story
41:35
Speaker 2: can benefit other people, it's exactly what you said. It's
41:38
Speaker 2: emboldening other people to come forward and to say, like
41:42
Speaker 2: I'm not going to live with this anymore. I'm going
41:45
Speaker 2: to tell my story and to give survivors their power back.
41:49
Speaker 2: And I think in sharing these stories it does empower
41:53
Speaker 2: people and say that like, I am not what happened
41:56
Speaker 2: to me. I am who I am, and this thing
41:59
Speaker 2: was done to me, but it doesn't need to define
42:02
Speaker 2: me anymore.
42:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's probably what happened with Michael
42:06
Speaker 1: Stano when he had these repressed memories for so long,
42:09
Speaker 1: because once these memories came back, he may have read
42:11
Speaker 1: Richard Heaster's name and found out that he was connected
42:14
Speaker 1: to this potentially unsolved homicide of Bobby Bissop, and that's
42:17
Speaker 1: what compelled him to file the lawsuit. And if this
42:20
Speaker 1: is the case, then that shows that Bobby's story has
42:23
Speaker 1: done some good for some people. So any further thoughts
42:27
Speaker 1: on the death of Bobby Bisop.
42:29
Speaker 2: This is a really heartbreaking case, and like we've mentioned throughout,
42:33
Speaker 2: there's even another layer to that, given that Bobby was
42:37
Speaker 2: hearing impaired and he was dealing with these challenges in
42:40
Speaker 2: everyday life, and to think that somebody, likely hew It,
42:44
Speaker 2: could have targeted him based on the fact that Bobby
42:48
Speaker 2: might not have been able to communicate what happened in
42:51
Speaker 2: the way that somebody was using traditional spoken language could
42:55
Speaker 2: But even then, children don't typically have the capacity to
42:58
Speaker 2: be able to communicate that, especially at that time. They
43:02
Speaker 2: weren't given language around sexual abuse the way that I'm
43:06
Speaker 2: a millennial and I grew up with like, you know,
43:09
Speaker 2: stranger danger, and if somebody touches you in your you know,
43:12
Speaker 2: underwear area, then you tell your parents, and you're taught
43:15
Speaker 2: all of these things. But I don't think that children
43:18
Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties were taught that there was an
43:20
Speaker 2: assumption that, like you were safe with adults, particularly those
43:24
Speaker 2: who would be members of the clergy or seminary students,
43:28
Speaker 2: that should be where you are safest. So the parents
43:31
Speaker 2: trusted this camp. They trusted the counselors, and they trusted
43:36
Speaker 2: the priests who ran it, and this is what happened.
43:39
Speaker 2: And that is so.
43:40
Speaker 1: Heartbreaking to think, exactly, like knowing that there were at
43:43
Speaker 1: least three counselors working there who have been accused of
43:46
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and now it's coming out that the camp
43:49
Speaker 1: director had possibly even abusing children as well. It's just
43:52
Speaker 1: pretty nausey and you think about it. But hopefully Bobby
43:55
Speaker 1: does get justice, maybe not in this life, but in
43:57
Speaker 1: the next. So that about brings any to our series
44:01
Speaker 1: on the disappearance and death of Bobby Biszop. Thank you
44:04
Speaker 1: so much for joining us, and happy New Year everyone,
44:06
Speaker 1: since we're recording this on the first day of twenty
44:08
Speaker 1: twenty six, so we'll see you next time for our
44:11
Speaker 1: next series of episodes from The Path Went Chile.
44:14
Speaker 2: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
44:15
Speaker 2: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
44:18
Speaker 1: Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
44:20
Speaker 1: years now and we offer these standard bonus features like
44:24
Speaker 1: early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers
44:27
Speaker 1: and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up
44:30
Speaker 1: with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars
44:33
Speaker 1: tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in
44:37
Speaker 1: which I talk about cases which are not featured on
44:40
Speaker 1: The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to
44:43
Speaker 1: Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier free
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Speaker 1: the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer
44:49
Speaker 1: is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries,
44:54
Speaker 1: where you can download an audio file and then boot
44:57
Speaker 1: up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon or YouTube
45:01
Speaker 1: and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background,
45:04
Speaker 1: where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases
45:07
Speaker 1: featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode
45:11
Speaker 1: that I did a commentary track over was the episode
45:14
Speaker 1: featuring this case. So if you want to download a
45:16
Speaker 1: commentary track in which I make more smart ass remarks
45:19
Speaker 1: about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three.
45:22
Speaker 3: So I want to let you know a little bit
45:24
Speaker 3: about the Jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad
45:27
Speaker 3: free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our
45:30
Speaker 3: Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so
45:33
Speaker 3: they're not very mini, but they're just too short to
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Speaker 3: turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.
45:38
Speaker 2: So we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link
45:41
Speaker 2: them in the show notes.
45:42
Speaker 1: So I want to thank you all for listening, and
45:44
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45:50
Speaker 1: You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.
45:53
Speaker 1: You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So
45:56
Speaker 1: until next time, be sure to bundle up, because cold
45:59
Speaker 1: trails and chili ask call for warm clothing.
46:01
Speaker 2: Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy