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Transcript

Secondary Infertility · Love and Science Fertility

• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Hello, my loves, welcome back to the Love and Science podcast.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: This is episode 11, and today we'll be talking about what's called secondary infertility, and this can have many different definitions.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: But what I really want to focus on today is when we've had a child in the past and we are struggling to conceive again, and I think in some ways this is similar to what we call primary infertility, which is when somebody has never been pregnant before.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: It gets a little murky with losses, whether we say that's primary or secondary.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: But in terms of somebody who already has a biological child, who is trying to have another child again, I think that that is really a particular situation that deserves some attention here, and so let's think about how that situation can be similar to somebody who maybe doesn't yet have a child.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I think there can be many similar feelings feelings of shame, feelings of isolation, despair, hopelessness, you know sort of this.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Why me, like?
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: It just can feel so incredibly terrible to be wanting this more than anything else and to be trying month after month after month and not seeing any fruitful results.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So I think a lot of the core feelings can be very similar.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I think, in terms of how life looks, that can be very similar as well in terms of needing to make time for appointments, tests, treatments, balancing potentially a professional career and the infertility journey.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: So I do think that there are many things that you know there's a lot of overlap right In terms of primary and secondary infertility, but also, how are these two entities different?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I think that sometimes the feelings can take a slightly different flavor, and so one thing I hear a lot from my patients and my clients is that there's this frustration Like it was so easy the first time around I didn't even have to think about it and it's so much harder this time around.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Right, it's like gosh, like what you know, I took for granted how easy it was before and now I'm really struggling to build my family.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I think where our brains go naturally is well then, what did I do wrong?
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Like, what did I do to have to cause more difficulty this time around?
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Coaching would challenge that thought, for sure, but I think in terms of just like people, the things that people tell themselves, is well, it's because I had an IUD, which we know scientifically is not true, but it's like you know.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's even like well, you know, it's because I ate the taco from the taco truck on that Tuesday.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: You know, we always look back and try and figure out what's what thing we did that yielded a suboptimal outcome, and sometimes there truly just is no explanation.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: But I just wanted to mention that because we all do it.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people say, you know, I really wish that I hadn't waited so long to start trying to have another child, right?
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Or maybe people say, well, it's because I gained the baby weight and I can't lose it, and that's why, like all these sorts of things, we do to take personal responsibility, and sometimes it's truly just biology, right, and there's nothing that we can do.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: So this is where self-compassion comes in.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I want everybody who's listening to this podcast, who maybe is feeling some of those feelings and having some of those thoughts, to just take a pause, give yourself some grace, know you're doing the best that you can and know that many other people are in a similar circumstance as you.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So that's the first thing is, I think the feelings can take a slightly different flavor.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: The second thing, you know, if you have a partner, is that sometimes people are on different pages when it comes to how to think about these sorts of things.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: So, in terms of you know things I hear.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: You know, usually it's the male partner if it's a heteronormative relationship.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: But you're just going to say what I hear Usually it's the male partner if it's a heteronormative relationship.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: But just going to say what I hear, the husband says, well, we should just be happy with what we have.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Or, you know, god only gives us what we can handle, or maybe even there's different levels of investment in the process, right?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So I think, in terms of a lot of this fertility journey, that women do often carry the burden of this journey, that women do often carry the burden of this.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: And so it can be really tricky when we know that women already do more of the home labor, the emotional labor, which is often invisible, of the planning and the scheduling and the running of the calendars.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: And when we have this sort of added, extra work, you just say there's already a child in the mix and say that there's work created from that.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: And then there's this extra part-time job that needs to be fit in somehow somewhere because there's all these appointments to get to.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes the husbands see what their wives are doing and they're like you know, let's just be happy with what we have and let's just stop, because I don't think it makes sense to keep on going Right.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to mention that because that can be really tricky to navigate and that situation.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: What I recommend is that the people involved zoom out, they think about what their initial goals were and they figure out what their values are.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: And if you and if a family of four meaning two children and two parents is what the initial dream was, well, maybe it makes sense to come back to why that was the first dream in the first place and where and when it diverged from that right.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: And so I think remembering how things were before infertility affected us, I think can be really helpful, because it taints us, it taints our perspective.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: There's emotional exhaustion, there's relationship discord and sometimes people just want that to go away, and the easiest thing to do is like a very black and white response is just to say well, you know, we already have a kid, let's move on as a family, and you know, end of story.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: So just think about that.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: And that's something I help people with all the time is when partners are on different pages and maybe the woman is feeling more of the emotional and physical labor of all.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Of this is like, what are ways that the men can step up, what are ways that men can listen, what are ways that the women can express their needs authentically?
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And you know, I say men and women.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: This really can apply to same-sex relationships too.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I think that you know that's sort of you know a different situation in that there is, by necessity, donor sperm involved, and so it's usually a little bit more of an intentional process than you know.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: People who theoretically could get pregnant at home if they tried some different things, and so.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: But you know to say I do think that you know, even in same sex relationships, there can be different perspectives in terms of you know, how much of our finances do we invest in this?
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: How much of our time, how much of our life planning do we put on hold like vacations and maybe going to family members' weddings and all sorts of things?
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Because really we do have to live our lives on a clock when we're thinking about engaging in this process.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: So, like I said, zooming out, figuring out what the initial goal was, what the values are, what the concerns are, and finding a way to listen and navigate that and come onto the same page, right, because I think that really is.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Where the struggle is is when two people are looking at things very differently and they're diverging instead of converging.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: So that's the second thing that can be a little different is, you know, partner differences in terms of what people want, right, in terms of the child's perspective.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I wanted to honor this too, because I hear a lot that people say oh, my goodness, my four-year-old just said mommy, when am I going to have a baby brother?
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: When am I going to have a baby sister?
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Or I want mommy to have another baby.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: And this is usually for children who are talking at this point.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: It's usually when there's been somewhat of a gap.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: You know, the first child has come and then it's been a few years, and it's so hard to navigate this sometimes because that feeling of guilt, that feeling of shame, that feeling of like well, how do I explain this to my four or five-year-old?
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And this personal responsibility.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Like you know, mommy is trying so hard to make this happen and I don't know why, you know, but it's so hard to find the right words.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And so you know, not only is it now a person and your partner, but now there's this other little human who has this perspective on it, and I mean taking a step back.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: It is very natural.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I mean you see children who play with dolls and you know, play house and think about families, and one thing I try to do is normalize that.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: There's all sorts of different.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: You know, families that you know are in existence and are participating in this loving dynamic of a family.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: But I think that that sort of dagger of like I can't even give my you know living child, a sibling, that creates a heavy burden that I try to help people release, because that is just so much pressure and it truly is not your fault.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: And the truth is there are beautiful families of all shapes and sizes.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: It's just letting that go can be really tricky sometimes, and so you know also, I think, that other family members too might have some ideas about things that make things complicated.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I mean this happens in people and couples who don't have any children yet, but I think it also happens kind of off the cuff, maybe at family gatherings like, oh, what are you going's the next baby coming along?
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Or there's this like expectation that, like the right kind of family is one with many siblings, and you know that's not always the case.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I mean there's situations where maybe somebody delivers a baby and loses their uterus at the same time and it's truly impossible, without a gestational carrier for them to have another child.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Or, you know, maybe somebody nearly lost their life in childbirth and it's been advised that they not try to conceive again.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: And there's that medical recommendation too, you know, for the sake of the life of the mother.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes, you know, people don't say these things from a malicious place, I don't think.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: But I think the insensitivity and the lack of awareness that when people are struggling, it just really adds insult to injury and it makes it hard to be around that person or those people.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I think that can further the dynamic, because it's almost like there is this familial expectation that X, y or Z happens and on a specific timeline.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: And especially if you're in a family where these things aren't talked about regularly, that can be also really hard to navigate.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: So what can I offer you today, other than the fact that I see you and your situation?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: You know, what can I offer you in terms of some mindset shifts and some reframes, as we say in the coaching world.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: So one of my pillars if you've been listening to me for a while now is that I really believe in authentic hope.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: One of my pillars, if you've been listening to me for a while now, is that I really believe in authentic hope.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Not pie in the sky, not Pollyanna, not silver lining, but like when we take a very objective lens looking at you and your situation, what are objective reasons that you're likely to have another child again?
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Right, I will tell you that having one child in the first place, that having one child in the first place, a lot of things have to go right for that to happen.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: So you know, if you conceived outside of invasive measures, you ovulated an egg.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: That egg, you know, the sperm swam up and fertilized that egg and that little embryo traveled down the fallopian tube and created an embryo.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: And that embryo implanted inside the uterus and grew, for you know, seven, eight, nine, 10 months inside of you and you delivered, hopefully, a healthy baby.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: And so, like those are a lot of milestones.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: When I actually think about it, I'm truly surprised that any of us are here, because so many things have to go right, like we are all miracles walking around on this earth.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: It just, it truly blows my mind every time I think about it.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: So, knowing that that went well inside of your body at least once.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: That is a huge feather in your cap for suggesting that this could happen again.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And, like I said, I mean my example was a heteronormative couple.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: If you're in a same-sex relationship and you had a donor sperm insemination and that worked the sperm maybe got there a slightly different way, you know, through the freezer than through an IUI, but you know same sort of a thing If you have gotten pregnant and carried a baby, you know to viability and hopefully to term like that is a lot.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: That is a huge reason for having authentic hope.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: So what I would say in terms of a mantra is like it happened once before, it is plausible and even likely that it will happen again.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So tuck that away, write it down.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: If it serves you, put it in your cell phone.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I think that can be a really helpful thing to remind ourselves, because when we think about attention like where our attention goes, the energy flows.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: So if we're thinking to ourselves, you know it's never going to happen again, or I'm so much older now, or I've had so many miscarriages in the meantime and those sorts of things, that those, those thoughts generate our feelings and then those feelings generate these actions where we, you know, often remain stuck, we shut down, we distract ourselves, we do things that don't get us towards the goal of what we want, and it feels kind of crappy to be to be in those sort of loops of thoughts and feelings, but if we can say it happened once more, it's likely to happen again.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: You know, that really does generate in most of us this feeling of authentic optimism because it is objectively true.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I don't say things that aren't true.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: People know me.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: They'll say, oh, you're so nice, I'm like, I'm not nice, I'm just honest.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: So, you know, this is a very honest statement to tuck away to maybe help you when your brain tries to get the better of you.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I think, in terms of another piece of wisdom that I want to share is, whenever you use the word should, it's a red flag.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: So, like we say, you know, don't should on yourself, which I love that expression Whenever I use the word should, I'm like oh, why did I just say that?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: What do I?
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: What am I really trying to say here?
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: So I think that if you are using the word should, like, like, it should be easy this time around.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Or, you know, it shouldn't be this way, I would take a step back, get very curious about that and really say to yourself, well, like was the first kid a miracle?
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: And you know, we got pregnant in the face of, you know, odds that were against us.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, like I said before, truly that's all of us.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: But like, sometimes we are expecting that because it was easy the first time around, it should be easy this time around.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: But sometimes it's how we look at things, you know, maybe maybe it really wasn't supposed to be easy the first time around and you got pregnant against the odds and maybe it's that way again and the question becomes how do we overcome the odds?
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I think that's a different perspective and helpful, because it's almost like you know, I think about my mother.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I love my mother.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: When we ask ourselves the question like, why me?
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: She actually says, like the question we actually need to be asking ourselves is why not me?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And I hope that's helpful.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I think it's about, like, whether we expect things to go, things to go smoothly all of the time, or whether we expect that in life there will be some trials, there will be some tribulations, and it's how we approach those things that makes all the difference.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: So try that frame shift.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: If you're thinking that because it was easy the first time around, it should be easy the second time around, I understand why we have those thoughts but maybe think, huh, it was really miraculous the first time and I really hope that a similar miracle happens now and see what that does for you.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: In terms of my suggestions for partner differences, I really think a lot of these issues that come into play with the fertility journey are really good stuff for partner conversations and vulnerability when we talk about what we do at Love Science is we help people tap into their feelings, figure out what they need, ask for what they need vulnerably, and have those conversations and get curious about the other person and what their experience is in all of this.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Sometimes when I help a client get really curious with her partner about what it's like for them to be in this situation many times if it's a male partner oftentimes they'll say that they feel helpless.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: They feel powerless.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: They don't want their wives to be, they don't want their wives to have to suffer unnecessarily, and so they're going through their own experience of trying to alleviate suffering and be the protector and the provider and all those things.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: And you know they if it, you know, especially if men feel ineffectual, that can be a really tough thing for a relationship to sustain.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: So, in figuring out what their pain points are and getting curious about their experience of this, sometimes it can open up the field for conversation and sharing in ways that couldn't have been possible before.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Getting curious and sharing what we're going through vulnerably.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: So, like I said, zooming out, talking about feelings, asking questions, you know, and really like without a goal in mind.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: If the goal is because I'm going to, you know, get him on my side and he's going to see it my way and he's going to know that, you know he needs to have intercourse.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: When I say to have intercourse and like all those things, like that is not the spirit.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: The spirit is really like okay, who are we as people?
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: What did we initially desire?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Like, what is this like for them, what is this like for me, and how can we communicate that in a way that actually brings us closer, instead of this fertility journey which is a wedge which is creating more of a divide.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the partner stuff.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: In terms of the child stuff, I think the most important thing is not to take it personally, like I said before, like children play with dolls, children play house, like they do all sorts of things and maybe they have friends at school and who have siblings and see different kinds of family structures.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I think why it stings so much when our kids say to us like, why are you going to give me a baby brother or sister, is because we take that so personally and we take that personal responsibility.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: But I think if we can zoom out and not take it as personally and say, you know, like mommy would love nothing more than for another baby in our house, like you know we're, we're doing everything we can to make that happen, sweetheart.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Or you know, I love you endlessly.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And if another baby is meant to come into our family, and another baby will come, and you know, let's talk about that.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: And if another baby is meant to come into our family, another baby will come, and you know, let's talk about that.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: And even getting curious with the kid, like, tell me, why do you want another baby in this house?
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Like you know, if they're old enough, maybe that could be some interesting conversations as well.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: So I think a lot of this is about navigating the discomfort and sitting in the discomfort in a way that allows us to move forward.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: So, like I said, try not to take it personally when the kids ask.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Understand that this is just how kids are wired.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Get curious with your kid.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: And also, you know, and if you decide to work with me too, I can help you come up with some sort of easy to access phrases that help you navigate those situations with a little bit more ease.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: And then the family so say you're at Uncle John's you know birthday party and Aunt Rita says something about like when's the next one coming along?
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: I think just like reminding ourselves that there is no ideal family size, there is no ideal spacing for children.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: We get in our minds well, I need to get pregnant this month, because then the kids are going to be two years apart in school, and this you know, or maybe you know you're a teacher and you're really hoping to get pregnant in a certain month so that you can, you know, have a full summer off with your kid.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Like there's all sorts of pressure we put on ourselves.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: That you know.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: As a coach, I challenge that thought and I say like that's just so much.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Like that must feel so crappy to be thinking that way.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Like how can we zoom out and have a more expansive view of like it will happen when it's meant to happen, like I'm going to do everything that I can to keep moving in a forward direction and I'm going to trust that process.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: And when your family asks just be like, you know there's different ways to handle it.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's humor, like you know.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, you know, we're working on it.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: If we didn't have to live with mom and dad during this home renovation, maybe we'd have a little more luck, or that's something that some people can do.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I don't find myself particularly funny on the spot, so sometimes, you know, I just might say, wow, that's a really personal question, you know.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Or hey, you know we're working on it.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: We'll let you know when we have something good to share or something like that that just kind of like, kind of wraps it up and allows somebody to move on.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: And again, like not taking it personally, maybe they have their own ideas of like, what an ideal family is.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that that's what you have to adopt either or feel judged by it.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Know that you're on your path, you're making the best choices for you, and just be empowered not to let that rock you.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And so, in closing, we've talked a little bit about how primary and secondary infertility are similar, but then also how there are some key differences which I think really do deserve attention.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: We talked about different differences in feelings, maybe differences that might come in relationships with your partner If you have a partner, if a child's involved and they can talk what their perspective is on the matter and feelings of guilt associated with that, and also when the broader family or friends get involved in how to handle those situations.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: So what I really want to do is validate you.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Like I said before, I see you.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: It is so very hard.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: You make sense.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: What you're feeling right now makes sense, and so give yourself some self-compassion, know that anybody in your situation would be feeling this way, and know that help is out there.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: There are lots of fertility specialists who love to help people, you know, in all situations, people who have had kids before, people who haven't had kids before, and so you know there are many, many doctors who are ready to help, to book a consultation.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: If you haven't yet you, then there's me.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: My zone of genius, when I'm not wearing my doctor hat, is really to think about the mindset, to think about where your thoughts are right now where you're getting stuck, and also how to move beyond those limiting beliefs, to start to feel better every day, to overcome the overwhelm, to reduce the stress and to start to find joy and meaning in your life today, because this life is so short and infertility takes so much, and so now it's time to get that power back.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: So if what you heard today resonates and you're like, yep, she gets me, she sees me, I wanna work with her, definitely, book a call with me and we can talk about your situation and how I can help.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: But, like I said, just know that you're not alone.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Secondary infertility is its own kind of suffering and I just want you to feel the love and feel held and just know that I'm in your corner rooting for you.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: With that, I will talk to you soon.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: It's an honor and a pleasure to serve.