Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #217 The Age of Consent with Rebecca Sparrow

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#217 The Age of Consent with Rebecca Sparrow · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, when parents do talk to their kids about sex,
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  Speaker 2: about intimacy, they mainly focus on the act itself.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Hello.
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  Speaker 2: We are Justin and Kylie Coulson, our husband and wife
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  Speaker 2: podcast pair and Parents have six children. I've written six
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  Speaker 2: books about raising happy families.
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  Speaker 4: Over the past few weeks, there's been some really startling
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  Speaker 4: and frankly horrifying stories in the major news outlets about teenagers,
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  Speaker 4: primarily at Sydney's Well Healed Private School.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, before you go on, just quick warning and acknowledgement.
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  Speaker 2: This is not a podcast for kids or for those
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  Speaker 2: with sensitivities around sexual assault. We're going to give you
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  Speaker 2: a quick second to press pause and come back to
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  Speaker 2: this one later. If you have your kids with you,
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  Speaker 2: or if this is one of those topics that does
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  Speaker 2: not bow well for you, We're going to be talking
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: about some pretty heavy stuff in this In this podcast.
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  Speaker 4: You know, conversations around enhance sex education at schools and
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  Speaker 4: about assault and consent have been popping up everywhere. It's
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  Speaker 4: a really important conversation to have.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I brought it up on Facebook last week, did
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  Speaker 2: a couple of Facebook lives about it.
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  Speaker 3: Went very big, very fast.
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  Speaker 4: School principles and student leaders have been really vocal, and
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  Speaker 4: there's been some great stuff coming out about it and
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  Speaker 4: shared online. Yeah, but it's crazy. It's just it's devastating
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  Speaker 4: to think that in twenty twenty one, we're still teaching
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  Speaker 4: people that women are humans who have feelings and shouldn't
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  Speaker 4: be harmed.
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  Speaker 2: So in this podcast episode, we're going to do something different.
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  Speaker 2: First off, Mum and mea podcaster and author Rebecca Sparrow
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  Speaker 2: is going to chat with us about her impressions on
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  Speaker 2: all of this, and the reason for that is Beck
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  Speaker 2: spends her days literally all day every day, thinking about teenagers,
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  Speaker 2: communicating with teenagers, writing books and articles for teenagers, talking
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  Speaker 2: to teenagers. She is smart it comes to this stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And then in the second half of the podcast, I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to read my thoughts to you. It's something that
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  Speaker 2: I wrote in my book Misconnection, and I think it's
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  Speaker 2: going to add to the conversation.
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  Speaker 4: Beck, thanks for joining us, Hey guys in the news.
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  Speaker 4: One of the central conversations and the push is the
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  Speaker 4: petition for better sex education in schools. Is this what
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  Speaker 4: we need?
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  Speaker 5: Look, I think it's part of the answer. I don't think.
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  Speaker 5: I don't think the responsibility for this lies in any
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  Speaker 5: one person's lap. So I think that do schools need
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  Speaker 5: to step up what they're doing? And I think some
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  Speaker 5: schools are probably better handling this better than others and
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  Speaker 5: handling this topic and looking at the culture of their school. Absolutely,
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  Speaker 5: But my personal opinion is that this has really got
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  Speaker 5: to be handballed over to parents as well. This is
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  Speaker 5: a family conversation and a tone that is set in
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  Speaker 5: the home. So I think, yes, absolutely whenever schools can
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  Speaker 5: and work boundaries and consent into different topics, but also
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  Speaker 5: at home. I think a lot of parents are scared
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  Speaker 5: to address it, but I think parents need to step up.
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  Speaker 4: Be you talk to a lot of students, boys and girls,
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  Speaker 4: what do you put this toxic sexual culture down to.
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  Speaker 5: Well, obviously, I mean I think porn is the main
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  Speaker 5: culprit here. Definitely. I think that that is warping the
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  Speaker 5: view of what sexual encounters should look like. If some
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  Speaker 5: of these kids are accessing a lot of porn, then
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  Speaker 5: they have no reason to think that sex looks like
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  Speaker 5: anything other than that. So, and there's a real lack
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  Speaker 5: of consent in the porn industry in how it's filmed,
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  Speaker 5: I guess so, of course in some ways, of course,
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  Speaker 5: like it's a no brainer in some ways that we're
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  Speaker 5: having this issue because the sex said teacher that a
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  Speaker 5: lot of kids are getting, which is the porn industry
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  Speaker 5: is teaching them the opposite of what we actually want
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  Speaker 5: them to know. So I do think it's more widespread,
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  Speaker 5: Like there's really when we look back, if I can't
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  Speaker 5: watch certain movies that I grew up with with my
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  Speaker 5: kids because there's problematic elements to them where you think, oh,
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  Speaker 5: that's not okay, that joke or that conversation, that's not
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  Speaker 5: how it should be. So I think part of the
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  Speaker 5: issue is that parents are on this learning curve and
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  Speaker 5: the kids are on this learning curve. So I think
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  Speaker 5: that's and that's why maybe also some parents don't have
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  Speaker 5: the tools to talk about consent because they also don't
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  Speaker 5: realize the nuances of what consent actually means.
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  Speaker 2: Something that I've discovered as well, beck when I talk
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  Speaker 2: to parents is that they're already a little bit funny
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  Speaker 2: about a lot of parents just don't want to have
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  Speaker 2: conversations about intimacy and sexual engagement. They definitely don't want
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  Speaker 2: to talk about pornography. I mean, I've written about twenty
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  Speaker 2: articles for the federal government's e Safety Commissioner. They're all online,
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  Speaker 2: they're all available for people so that you can learn
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  Speaker 2: how to.
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  Speaker 3: Have these conversations with your kids. To them in the
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  Speaker 3: show notes.
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  Speaker 2: But something that's really interesting to me is that when
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  Speaker 2: parents do talk to their kids about sex, about intimacy,
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  Speaker 2: they mainly focus on the act itself. And what I've
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  Speaker 2: found is that parents tend to divorce emotional intimacy from
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  Speaker 2: physical intimacy. We have a conversation about what sex is
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  Speaker 2: and how it works, but we don't actually talk about
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  Speaker 2: what it is to be involved in an emotionally intimate relationship,
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  Speaker 2: a relationship of trust, a relationship where that.
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  Speaker 3: Desire builds over time.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that you're right that pornographic you meet
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  Speaker 2: somebody on the street and two minutes later you are
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  Speaker 2: in their apartment having some kind of I was going
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  Speaker 2: to say intimate encounter, but it's not.
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  Speaker 3: It's just a sexual encounter.
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  Speaker 2: Because a pornography and society seem to have divorced these
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  Speaker 2: two things.
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  Speaker 5: Absolutely and I would even say the moment you say
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  Speaker 5: to parents, I've sent it online in the comments over
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  Speaker 5: the last few days of my child's on the X age,
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  Speaker 5: I can't have this conversation yet. So let's just also
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  Speaker 5: say consent.
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  Speaker 3: Doesn't have to be about sex.
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  Speaker 5: Consent is can I have permission like from one sibling
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  Speaker 5: to another? Can I have permission to go into your room?
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  Speaker 5: Can I have permission to look through your bag? Is
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  Speaker 5: it okay if I take that chip off your play?
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  Speaker 5: That is where you start the conversations with consent, you know?
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  Speaker 5: Can I give you a hug when we start the
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  Speaker 5: com It doesn't have to be right. We're talking about
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  Speaker 5: consent and sex, and we don't have to.
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  Speaker 3: Start it there.
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  Speaker 5: We can start it right back in how your family
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  Speaker 5: dynamic operates with personal boundaries, and if we start it younger,
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  Speaker 5: start it when our kids are whatever in kindie or whatever,
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  Speaker 5: it makes it a normal progression. Then talking about boundaries
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  Speaker 5: and what you're okay with. So i'd certainly say that,
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  Speaker 5: and I completely agree with you. I think so often
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  Speaker 5: in the past sex education has actually been all about,
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  Speaker 5: you know, don't get somebody pregnant and don't get that's
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  Speaker 5: what it was for a long time for our generation,
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  Speaker 5: and I think now we're talking about the communication around
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  Speaker 5: that intimacy of somebody or that encounter. We're talking about
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  Speaker 5: everything leading up to that, and the communication signals and
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  Speaker 5: body language and reading all of the things somebody is
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  Speaker 5: communicating to you without necessarily saying any words.
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  Speaker 4: So permission and respect, that's the message around consent. Definitely, definitely,
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  Speaker 4: last question for you back, kids love your talks. I
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  Speaker 4: want to know what really hits home for kids when
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  Speaker 4: you talk about this topic with them.
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  Speaker 5: I think the thing that I have noticed in certainly
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  Speaker 5: in the last twelve months that has had the biggest
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  Speaker 5: impact is not when I talk about consent. It's when
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  Speaker 5: I talk about personal boundaries and when I talk about
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  Speaker 5: how important it is for each of us to work
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  Speaker 5: out what our personal boundaries are and how to communicate
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  Speaker 5: those boundaries. And personal boundaries is really just a fancy
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  Speaker 5: way of saying what you're okay with, and that you
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  Speaker 5: are allowed to say, Actually, I don't do scary movies,
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  Speaker 5: or I don't do sleepovers, or I'm not okay with that.
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  Speaker 5: So often we expect, we sort of say to our kids,
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  Speaker 5: just say no or don't go there. But we don't
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  Speaker 5: give them the words or the language of how to
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  Speaker 5: communicate things. And I think that when I've had these
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  Speaker 5: conversations with kids, having them think about their own personal boundaries,
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  Speaker 5: that's a big part of the conversation is personal boundaries
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  Speaker 5: is all about you're in the driver's seat and what
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  Speaker 5: are you okay with? And that then gives you more
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  Speaker 5: agency in your life of like, what are you okay
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  Speaker 5: with in this encounter, whether it's with kids at school,
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  Speaker 5: whether it's with your grandma wanting to give you a hug,
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  Speaker 5: whether it's on a first date. So if we can
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  Speaker 5: the more empowered we can be with understanding personal boundaries
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  Speaker 5: and owning our boundaries and being able to communicate them,
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  Speaker 5: we're going to be in a better place.
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  Speaker 3: So much wisdom, Thank you so very much.
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  Speaker 4: You're welcome. Thanks guys.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: In just a sec I'm going to read from Misconnection
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  Speaker 2: why your teenage daughter hates you, expects the world, and
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  Speaker 2: needs to talk, and share my ideas around how we
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  Speaker 2: can get this consent message through to our kids, both
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  Speaker 2: boys and girls, including a script that mums and dads
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  Speaker 2: can rely on to get the message across and where
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  Speaker 2: the consent is even enough.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.
• 9:33
  Speaker 6: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home, tweens, teens and Screens
• 9:37
  Speaker 6: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com dot au slash shop.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast of the time,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now. And we're having
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: a pretty tough conversation today around consent, personal boundaries, respect,
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  Speaker 2: respect for relationships, assault, at all of those things that
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  Speaker 2: you've heard us talking with Rebecca Sparrow about. What we're
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  Speaker 2: going to do now is I'm going to dive into
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  Speaker 2: my book Misconnection, because I've written about two and a
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  Speaker 2: half pages on this topic that i think are really
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  Speaker 2: important for every parent, and I'm going to read that
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  Speaker 2: to you just because I think it will help and
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  Speaker 2: I hope that you get lots out of it.
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  Speaker 3: Here we go.
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  Speaker 2: This is from page two hundred and four, two hundred
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  Speaker 2: and five, and two hundred and six of Misconnection. Why
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  Speaker 2: your teenage daughter hates you, expects the world, and needs
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  Speaker 2: to talk. Positive conversations about sexuality should start young. Talk
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  Speaker 2: to young children using proper names for body parts as
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  Speaker 2: they become older. Talk to them about sex and intimacy frankly,
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  Speaker 2: openly and honestly. Once they develop an interest in a
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  Speaker 2: boyfriend girlfriend, talk to them about negotiating boundaries. Clearly, the
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  Speaker 2: one thing we do not teach is that our daughters
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  Speaker 2: are responsible for the actions of another person.
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to say that again.
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  Speaker 2: One thing we do not teach is that our daughters
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  Speaker 2: are responsible for the actions of another person. Our goal
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  Speaker 2: is to raise forthright, confident young women who are comfortable
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  Speaker 2: talking about their bodies, what turns the mind, and how
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  Speaker 2: they feel about what their partner wants from them. For now, though,
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  Speaker 2: here are two crucial conversation points about sex. First, when
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  Speaker 2: we teach our daughters about sexual matters, we must teach
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  Speaker 2: them about consent and courage. We might say consent means
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  Speaker 2: that when it comes to holding hands, touching, kissing, or
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  Speaker 2: any interactions with any of your sexual organs, and when
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  Speaker 2: it comes to the act of sex itself, you absolutely
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  Speaker 2: want to do what the other person wants you to do,
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  Speaker 2: and you're enthusiastically saying yes. If you aren't sure and
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  Speaker 2: they're trying to press you, they do not have consent.
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  Speaker 2: And the same goes if you want something that they don't.
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  Speaker 2: Consent is safe. Consent is healthy. Consent is the law
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  Speaker 2: if the person you're with wants to do something you
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  Speaker 2: don't like, or if you're feeling pressured or coerced, This
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  Speaker 2: is where we move from consent to courage. You need
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  Speaker 2: to have the courage to say no. When you say no,
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  Speaker 2: you need to do it clearly and forcefully. The other
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  Speaker 2: person needs to know without question that you were saying no.
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  Speaker 2: It can't be Maybe it can't be that you just
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  Speaker 2: ignore it and let things keep getting more and more intimate.
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  Speaker 2: You need to say no and communicate it clearly. You
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  Speaker 2: might say I'm really happy to kiss, but I don't
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  Speaker 2: want you groping me. Alternatives could include I'm fine with
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  Speaker 2: this touching each other, but I will not have sex
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  Speaker 2: with you, or I'm fine with us exploring our bodies
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  Speaker 2: a bit, but I will not have intercourse with you.
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  Speaker 2: Let me pause for just a moment to highlight some
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  Speaker 2: important issues related to what I've just advised. First, the
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  Speaker 2: freeze response is common in instances of boundary crossing and
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  Speaker 2: sexual assault. I'm not implying that a girl who cannot
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  Speaker 2: overcome her fear in this instance lacks courage, nor is
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  Speaker 2: she responsible for her partner failing to elicit enthusiastic consent
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  Speaker 2: from her. It is sometimes impossible to be clear and
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  Speaker 2: forceful in a deteriorating sexual encounter. This again, is why
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  Speaker 2: we pre arm our daughters. We speak to them and
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  Speaker 2: our sons clearly about what is and what is not
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  Speaker 2: okay in a sexual encounter. We explain consent emphatically, and
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  Speaker 2: if our daughter is harmed, abused, or assaulted, we do
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  Speaker 2: not blame her for the actions of the person who
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: has hurt her. We help her to know that a
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  Speaker 2: person who goes beyond consent is not passionate or in love. Instead,
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  Speaker 2: they are selfish and entitled at best. At worst, they
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  Speaker 2: are a criminal or a rapist. For parents of boys,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: teach your son that if he has not received an
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: enthusiastic yes, he needs to get the hell off her,
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  Speaker 2: and it can't just be one yes. For instance, she
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  Speaker 2: might agree enthusiastically two fingers, but not full. In the course, ongoing,
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  Speaker 2: enthusiastic consent has to be confirmed again and again. He
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  Speaker 2: also has to be aware of signs that might indicate
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  Speaker 2: his partner is not into what they're doing, even if
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: she's already said yes, or if she hasn't said no,
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  Speaker 2: silence is not consent. Saying yes once is not ongoing consent.
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  Speaker 2: Saying yes in a squeaky, scared voice doesn't mean she's
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  Speaker 2: enthusiastic about either. As laws continue to change in relation
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  Speaker 2: to consent, this conversation will protect our sons. But again,
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  Speaker 2: at a deeper level, boys need to stop relying on
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  Speaker 2: girls to be the gatekeepers of sexual behavior. They can,
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  Speaker 2: and they need to step up and do the right
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  Speaker 2: thing in these situations because it's the right thing to do.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Another important point on consent, Requiring consent actually sets the
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  Speaker 2: bar breathtakingly low. While it's true that if our daughters
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  Speaker 2: are going to be intimate, then it must be consensual,
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  Speaker 2: we will still see girls being pested until they say okay, fine,
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  Speaker 2: this is so wrong. A girl should not be hassled
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: into intimacy that she doesn't want. It leaves her feeling used, and,
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  Speaker 2: to use an old fashioned word that may not be
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: popular but seems strangely accurate, unworthy. She feels like she
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  Speaker 2: is literally worth less because she has been treated by
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  Speaker 2: her romantic partner precisely that way. The conversation should not
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  Speaker 2: be about consent, okay, fine, doesn't cut it to giving
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  Speaker 2: my kids fifty dollars to go out for dinner with friends,
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  Speaker 2: but it doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I believe
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  Speaker 2: we need to move well beyond consent. Instead, the conversation
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  Speaker 2: should be about honored desire. I don't think that's going
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  Speaker 2: to catch on like consent has, but honored desire should
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  Speaker 2: be the benchmark. Unless both people in that intimate encounter
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  Speaker 2: are positively saying I want to do this, then both
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  Speaker 2: need to be patient and gentle and demonstrate that their
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: partner's desire is worth respecting. That is what the consent
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  Speaker 2: conversation should really be about, anything less as selling our
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  Speaker 2: children's sexual experience and worth short. Consent and courage are
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  Speaker 2: crucial for clarity and communication and for our children's well being,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: and these conversations start.
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  Speaker 3: At the beginning.
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  Speaker 2: There's a whole lot more in misconnection that I could
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: read to you and emphasize about this conversation, but that's
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: it for today. We really hope that you've enjoyed the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast, even if it hasn't been about the
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: happiest of topics, if you did get something out of it,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: if you find it useful and worthwhile.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Please share it with a friend.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Please jump onto Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: leave a rating and review. It's those reviews that help
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: other people to find out about the podcast and eventually
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: somehow make their families happier. As always, we really appreciate
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the work of Craig Bruce, our executive producer, and Justin
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Rulan from Bridge Media.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: For producing the podcast. And if you'd like to get.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: More information about making your family happier, you can pick
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: up that book Misconnection from anywhere books are sold, including
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: my website, Happy families dot com dot you, or you
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: can log on too happy families dot com dot you.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: That's where you get all the info about our monthly
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: membership and all of the great ways that you can
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: make your family happier. Go to happy families dot com
• 16:42
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