Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Batman Forever and Batman & Robin - Joel Schumacher | Houselights #287: Wing of Batman

Transcript

Batman Forever and Batman & Robin - Joel Schumacher | Houselights #287: Wing of Batman · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Welcome on in for some more fun in the wing
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: of Batman here on House Lights. I am one of
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: your hosts here on the Nerd Party, John Mills, John
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Batman Mills, if you will, and I am joined today
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: by my sidekick, the acrobatic Darren Moser, and our nemesis,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: the decked out in green Tristan Riddell also known as
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: the Riddler or should it be Riddeller. What do you think,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Darren Riddeller, he's Adela Bardell.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Is we need a shirt now? Of that?
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I do think that maybe you need to pick an
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: outfit that maybe is a little looser, breathes a little
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: better maybe.
• 0:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm just throwing that out there. Yeah, so tight
• 1:01
  Speaker 5: in certain areas, you.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Know, flexibility can be affected after a certain point. I'm
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: just throwing that out there just as a tip for
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: anybody looking for a full body leotard. So, you know,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: before we get into this, of course we're here on
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: the Nerd Party. You could go ahead and find us
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: out there on the socials and everything like that and
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: have a great time. We are joined Nerd Party on
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: X for the Nerd Party on Blue Sky and Facebook
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and nerd party dot Com slash contact, because we expect
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: that there will be some discussion points coming out of
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: this episode, wherein we're going to be looking at Batman
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Forever and Batman and Robin directed by the late great
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and I do not say great sarcastically, the late great
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Joel Schumacher, and these are two movies that were probably,
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: for a long time, the most polarizing fan based movies
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: ever made, and I'm so looking forward to discussing them now. Gentlemen,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: my question is not about the first time we saw
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: these We'll get to that. My question is how familiar
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: were you two with the works of Joel Schumacher before
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: you saw Batman Forever?
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: Solid question, solid question when I saw it.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: Zero.
• 2:08
  Speaker 5: I had no idea of Schumacher beforehand, Okay, Darren.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now I do nothing about him. It was the
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: list of directors I knew was like four, like you know,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: the big one, like Spielberg, Lucas, you know, maybe throwing
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: a few others.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I was not consuming by director credit alone yet now
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: so everybody knows he had one hell of a filmography
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: just leading up to this moment in time. He his
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: debut was the incredible Shrinking Woman in eighty one. That
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: he did DC Cab in eighty three, which is it
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: is a product of its time, and it's a comedy
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and it has mister t And if I need to
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: say anything else to recommend it to you, I don't
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: know what else I could say. He did Saint Elmo's Fire,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: which was the brat Pack coming out party. He did
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: The Lost Boys, which stands as one of the greatest
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: soundtrack movies ever and one of the most fun movies
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: of the eighties. He did Cousins, which we won't talk
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: about that it's a little weird as American remake of
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: a French film Flatliners, Dying Young, Falling Down, which is
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: very much regarded as a classic.
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: And coming out with a four K release real soon.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Yes it is, and the client writing the John Grisham
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: wave of popularity, and that all leads up to Batman Forever.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: So with that I can speak from the perspective of
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: somebody you know older than the two of you, hearing
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Joel Schumacher is taking it over. We all wanted Tim
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Burton to come back, but it was like, okay, well,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Schumacher' is a known entity. Val Kilmer was a hot commodity,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Tommy Lee Jones, My gosh, Jim Carrey's going to be
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: in this. It was a huge hype coming around it. Now,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: if you guys weren't watching for director by that point,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what was the hype train like for you,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Darren when Batman Forever came out? Like, was it something
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: where you were like super excited by this Batman movie
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: coming out?
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: Or is this just something that was just like a
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: to you.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember, and I honestly feel this was
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: probably a blockbuster renteal for me. I don't think I
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: saw this in initially. I was just a hair young
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: and I think I think Jim Carrey is more what
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: did it? Nothing against Jim Carrey, but in the like
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: family households, I think he wasn't the draw for my
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: family of like that kind of humor. I think that
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: was the concern based on this, like other work, So
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: I think I definitely picked this up this This is
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: definitely a watch at a friend's house on like a
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: you know, a sleepover or having fun or renting from
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: block But I'm pretty sure that's how I consume this one.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: But the but yeah, but just looking at the poster,
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: the cover, you know it is it is vibrant with color. John,
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: There's so much color just in the cover right there,
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: you know, versus the the you know, use of black, white,
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: and red in previous movies. So when I did get
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: around to it, I was interested. I was just interested
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: in this interaction of villains because they're they're starting to
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: like add lots of villains into every movie, and so
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: I was curious, like, Okay, two Face and the Riddler,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: not the two I would expect to be paired, but
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: we'll get into that pairing. So that was my initial response.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Well, Tristan, you know, regardless of everything else, was the
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: hype train at least something you were aware of. Did
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: your family get swept up in the hype train at.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: All for this movie? Because it was huge?
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: Man, this this I remember this age like this was.
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: You say the hype train was huge, and that's not
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: an exaggeration. It was gigantic. There was the Schumacher originally
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: wanted to go in a darker tone, kind of like Burton,
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: you know, he wanted to continue that, but Wonder Brothers
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: was like, listen, no, we gotta sell toys, we gotta
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: sell happy meals we cannot have a repeat of Batman Returns.
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: Schumacher's like fine, fine, and he just kind of rain
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: with it. But at the same time, even though he
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: wanted a darker tone and explored Bruce Wayne Psyche a
• 6:14
  Speaker 5: little bit more, he still wanted to have this nineteen
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: forties Gotham mixed with Neon Cyberpunk Tokyo, and Keaton was
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: just like, no, thank.
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: You, and that is very notable.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that about how Keaton saw where
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: it was going, and he was like, I'm exercising my
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: option not to participate.
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: Thanks guys.
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: But regardless of that, I was at the perfect age
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: for this movie because this came out in ninety five.
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: I was born in eighty six, and so I was
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: nine years old. I'm the same age as my eldest
• 6:46
  Speaker 5: is right now. And I was over the moon because
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: when I saw Batman Returns, I should say, when I
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: saw the marketing for Batman Returns, I was like, this
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: is kind of weird. I don't know if this is
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: for me, Like I'm a big Batman fan, but this
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: just doesn't feel like something accessible for me. But then
• 7:03
  Speaker 5: when I see Batman Forever, and then of course a
• 7:06
  Speaker 5: nine year old sees Jim Carrey, I'm like, holy crap, Okay, yeah,
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: I gotta be there. And I still remember seeing the
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: trailer for the first time on TV and we see
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: Bruce Wayne fighting at the circus and I lose my mind,
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: Like I went and ran to the kitchen to find
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: my dad and said, oh my god, oh my god,
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: Batman fight without a suit.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: He fights without his suit.
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: And just like even just stuff like that, and so
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: and then you see all the Happy Meal stuff, all
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: the promotion, video games stuff on on cable, and it's
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: just I it was all about it. I was I
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: was there opening weekend with my family, like my whole family.
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: And also my sister didn't really give a damn about Batman,
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: but she was a huge fan of Chris O'Donnell and
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: she loved and she was really getting into music because
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: I think she was thirteen at the time, and so
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: because of the soundtrack that came out before the movie did,
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: and because of Chris o'dan she went to the theater
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: with us to go see Betman Forever.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Now see, I'm glad you mentioned the soundtrack because usually
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: we save it for later in the discussion. But I
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: have to call it out the soundtrack, regardless of how
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: you felt about the movie.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: When it came out, the.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Soundtrack was huge, like absolutely huge. And I still stand
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: by the soundtrack. It is an absolute banger soundtrack. And
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: what's really interesting and Darren, I'll be interested for your
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: take on this. When Prince's soundtrack came out in eighty nine,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: we talked about this. Everybody was like, what the hell, man,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: where's Danny Elfman's score? This soundtrack came out and nobody
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: was asking for the score. As I recall, nobody was like, no,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: but I got to have that score. Now the tide
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: has shifted a little bit in recent times. I know
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: they've released it and you know, you know, people have
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: different opinions about it. Everything you might as may vary
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: in terms of soundtrack. Is this a score where you
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: were like, they did it completely wrong. They should have
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: come out with the score just like they did for
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Danny Elfman? Or are you perfectly good with the soundtrack
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: as it stands right now?
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: Like for me?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: The soundtrack opens with whole be Thrilled Me, Kiss Me
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Kill Me, which is an outtake from some studio sessions
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: for you two. But you know, do you feel the
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: same affinity for the music in this film that we
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: all did for Elfman's work in the previous two.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna take my response as a Tristan would give it. Eh, No,
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it's I'm probably the wrong person to
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: ask about this. It it, But it is an interesting
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: discussion about that score versus soundtrack, because, yeah, there are
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: definitely times when you know, al I want to give
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: them right, a soundtrack, you know, comes out and and
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: you have all the themes, and you know, I love
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: a good theme. I love a good Batman theme. I
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: love a good really I love you know, making you
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: connect to that character. But you know, the score where
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: you're when you have it mixed with the pop culture,
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: you know, music and all of that together, It's it's
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: definitely more of locking it into a moment in time,
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: into that that's that's where like, oh, that's right, this
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: was ninety this was very very nicely.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Oh it is very nineties. But Elliott Goldenthal score, Trista,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: do you think they did him dirty back then? He
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: doesn't even get his theme anywhere on the soundtrack that
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: they released.
• 10:11
  Speaker 5: Yes, I do think they did him dirty, because I
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: love golden Thal. Not a lot of people do, like
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: it's too harsh and brassy for a lot of people,
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: and I completely respect that, But for me, I was
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: all about it, like, of course Elfman is Elfman when
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: it comes to Batman and Batman returns. I mean, it's iconic.
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: You cannot separate the resurgence of Batman and pop culture
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: and cinematic culture, I should say, and Elfman you just can't.
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: I mean, like he was. His music was reused in
• 10:44
  Speaker 5: Joss Whedon's Justice League, it was utilized in countless video
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: games and animated series, as we've talked about, like it's
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: a staple. But Goldenthal, I think it would have been
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: disingenuous to have Elfman in Batman forever because the tonality
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: was just so crazy different, and you needed something that
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: was in your face. You needed something that was that
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: would slap you across the face and stick a French
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: horn in your ear, and that's what Goldenthal did. And
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: I'm a big I mean, like Interview with the Vampire
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: is one of my favorite scores of all time, and
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: Goldenthal did that great score, and so he always he
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: always has a special place in my heart. And I
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: there are moments I'm not gonna say everything's perfect, because
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: there are moments when like he kind of leans into
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: the electric guitar and you're just like, what are you doing, Elliott?
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: What's going on?
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I think that with Goldenthal, I think he's given a
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: very difficult task and he does what the movie asks
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: of the composer. Like, if anything, his theme sounds like
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Danny Elfman throw a fun house mirror sort of thing,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: where it's like.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: It's it's just it's a little wacky.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: But I think that what you're talking about Tristan with
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: a tone, I think visually obviously, even if Schumacher has said,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: oh I wanted to go darker, the script definitely skews
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: darker than the final product that we got there. There's
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind. And I know that
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: there are outtakes that people have pointed to where they're like,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: if you know, release the fan cutuff like that, right.
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a fan cut out there that I need
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: to get my hands on because I have to see it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: I don't know why I've taken this long to get it.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: I would love I would love to see that myself.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: It's more bid curiosity, more than anything else, because Darren,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: in terms of that shifting tone includes a shift in
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: visual tone, the way this is shot, the way color
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: is used. You you alluded to it earlier. Do you
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: think it works or is this something where the artifice
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: is such that it would take the audience out of it?
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Do you see the same stretch for reality from the
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: first two for instance?
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I feel it works. It definitely is leaning more into
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: that comic vibe, like it's interesting. While it doesn't feel
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: like we're gonna start everything, we're going to ignore what
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: happened in the first two movies. It does. It does
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: feel like a whole new director with a whole new
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: vision is start again. Starting over is too strong a phrase,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: but their interpretation, especially with the yeah, the colors, the framing,
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: you know, the it's wackier, like the characters like they're
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: leaning into you know, Jim Carrey and Tommy Lee Jones
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: are you know, they're bouncing off the walls. And then
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: Kilmer's there, super stoic kind of trying to ground it
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: back into semi reality. And then we're floating, you know,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: ghost particles out of people's heads like it's it. It
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: does not take itself too seriously, and I don't think
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: it should.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, looking at the device itself, it has
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: a bunch of styrofoam in it and it's a blender,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: so you're absolutely right. This the visual flare with this
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: box is really interesting to me and Tristan as a
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: lifelong Batman fan. Do you see the comic book Batman,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: an era of comic book Batman embedded in this world?
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: This is whether people like the movie or not, this
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: is the perfect Batman comic book adaptation. And I say
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: that as a lifelong Batman fan. Do I think this
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: movie is perfect?
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: Not at all.
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: Do I think that that people who dislike it are wrong? No,
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: I don't. I think if you dislike it, you have
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: every right to. And I think there's a lot wrong
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: with it, and there's a lot of criticisms that are
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: absolutely valid. But if you look at eighties Batman, nineties Batman,
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: two thousands Batman, even twenty twenties Batman even like the
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: brand new continuity that just released the DCU or whatever,
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: not like dcs in like Yoe you not the DCU
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: as in James Gunn's business. This is what when you
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: read a comic book, it's this movie, whether you want
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: to admit it to yourself or not. Now, of course,
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: are there exceptions, Yes, of course there are exceptions, you know,
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: like they're you know, you're reading Three Jokers or something,
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: or you're reading you know, watch some Yeah or something
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: like that. But I'm talking about specifically Batman, like, are
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: there serious Batman's? Of course? Are there black labels? Of course,
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: you know that are more serious in this or grittier
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: than this. Of course, if you're looking at Frank Miller, yes,
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: it's going to skew more towards Keaton and Burton than
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: you do with Schumacher. But I'm talking about my mainstream,
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: every day, every weekly issue of Batman. This is it's
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: going to be more akin to Batman forever than it
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: is not. And I'm sure there are people are out
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: there who disagree with me, and they're wrong, but it's
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: just this movie. When you look at how serious Batman is,
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: that is how serious Batman is in the comics. When
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: you look at how wacky and goofy that the characters
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: can be, that's how it is in the comics, and
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: just even from the design of their outfits to the
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: way that Two Face and Riddler talks the way that
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: Batman talks away that talks even though you want to
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: stab a pencil in his ear, you know, like, it's
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: just that's how he talks, and Alfred being the mainstay.
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: It's just it's it's kind of like, you know how
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: we talked about with Adam West, where he wasn't silly,
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: but he took silly iness very seriously. Val Kilmer's Batman
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: understands that there's absurdity around him and he has to
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: navigate it.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: I think that's very fair. I agree with your take.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: I think the visual sensibilities, like a point to Batman
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: when he first swings in, looks like a splash page.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: It looks like I've gotten the page, you know, the
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: page three four in and Batman swinging across this big,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: beautiful layout with all of his color and everything like that.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I think that the use of certain angles very much
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: belong in comic book and I think that where people
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: probably struggle with this movie. And Darren, I'd love your
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: take on this is we're three movies in.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: If I go to a.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: James Bond movie, you know, draw something, you know, draw
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: a straw card, whatever you want to say, Can you
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: name the director most times, unless you're a James Bond fan,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: but you still know the structure, the look, the way
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: everything's going to be approached. Do you think that's what
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: alienated fans some fans at the time was that they
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: broke the James Bond promise that even if a new
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: director came in, we at least continue the momentum of
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: the previous entries.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: I agree, this was not James Bond as much as
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: I thought it would be, and that really disappointed me. No,
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: it is. It's one of those things that you do
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: have to kind of look back, and because it's so
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: easy to nowadays, in twenty twenty six, look back and
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: go like, oh, yeah, the Batman franchise, you get a
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: different flavor every couple of movies based on the director.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: That's just what it is. But now, you know, way
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: back to ninety five and there's only been really I mean,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: we discount the sixty six because we set that to
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: the side. Everybody does, but you know, Batman and Batman
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Returns has established that new course. So yeah, this is
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: definitely a deviation from that. And I can see people
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: going like, oh, it's not you know, Keaton, it's not burden.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: It's not the Batman I was expecting. So, but I
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that the Batman
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: franchise became the flavor of the season because it gave
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: us a lot more variety, you know, I love I
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: mean when we talk about you know, Dark Knight and
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: moving on into there, you know you want to talk
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: about gritty, going back to realism. I mean, it's swinging
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: the pendulum way back. But I like the fun of this.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: I would love a comic shaded copy of this movie,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: like to pull out key frames with speech bubbles of
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: this movie. I would read that over and over because
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: you can, you can. I'm thinking of you know, you know,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: oh there's a good one. He's looking at the diamond.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: He's like, no, oh, there's a good one. Like that's
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: a cell. Those should be cells that come out of
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: the page at me, and they're they're all over this movie.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: So I can see it breaking the promise in air quotes.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: But I guess in hindsight on what the franchise became,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: I personally am glad that it became more of an
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: interpretation based on the director. Then uh, yeah, Batman, we
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: all know what Batman's like, there's nothing really changes. We've
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: gotten ten movies and that's just what it is. Is more
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: like who is playing Batman, because then we're gonna get
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: a little bit of variety. That's the Bond model. But
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: I'm glad that Batman is not the Bond.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: I love.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I love your points on that. I truly do, and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I definitely think the success of Batman forever. You know,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: it backs up what you were saying there that like
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: it was a refresher and it was different two points
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: you mentioned you'd love to pull panels out like a
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: comic book. I remember the comic book adaptation of this,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and it is It was beautiful. It was beautifully illustrated,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: and it actually has a moment that I don't know
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: if it was ever filmed or was just in the script,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: but was great where two Face and the Riddler are
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: sharing the brain drain thing and one of them and
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's two says my god, Jim Morrison was
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: right and the other one says about what everything, which,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: as a Doors fan, I was like, this is my
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: happiest moment in history. A Batman comic is validating by
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Jim Morrison. Love, but Tristan. The flip side. The dark
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: side of that is, do you think that what fans
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: are reacting were some of the fans who rejected this
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: we're reacting to is that this is the movie they expected.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: In eighty nine.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Eighty nine gave them something sublimely different. And then it's
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: as if Warner Brothers hit a reset button and they're like,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, what happened? You know, like, do you
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: think if this had been in reverse the reactions would
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: have been different?
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: You think there's no pleasing people. I think people are
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: going to freak out no matter what. I think. It's
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: a I think it's very rational to say that if
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: you flipped it, some people would be happy, because there
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: are people who grew up on West and wanted a
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: comic book e type interpretation. I think there was a
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: lot of people who would have seen Batman forever and
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: gone like, okay, cool, cool, still too dark for my taste,
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: but hey, it's the nineties, or it's eighty nine whatever.
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: But then you have people who were excited after they
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: saw eighty nine and were just like, oh yeah, Frank Miller, Okay, yeah,
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: this is clearly Miller's Batman, and it was you know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: you had that tonality, like it completely shifted in the eighties,
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: and we all know what we're talking about. We all
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: know what I'm talking about, and so I feel like
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: you needed this period in time. Okay, So like Burton
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: not a Batman fan, and that's the kind of movie
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: that we get, and people really liked it. And there's
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: a reason why people really liked it is because it's
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: a cinematic language. Burton spoke in a cinematic language and
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: interpreted the character in a non comic book way. Schumacher,
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: big Batman fan, loves the comics, loves the character, and
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: it came across on screen. It's a comic book film.
• 21:55
  Speaker 5: Eighty nine wasn't really a comic book film. And I
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: think if Forever came out today, it would do better
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: than it would have in eighty nine.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I love the points you're making there, because what a
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: comic book movie is was the definition. You know, people
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: are always fighting about that, and I just wanted just
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: to re illustrate the landscape for everybody. Just a sampling
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: of the stuff that came out after eighty nine is
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Batman We Go, We have dark Man in nineteen ninety
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: which is Sam Raimi humor all over Batman, including a
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Danny Elfman score. We have the Mask, which is Jim Carrey.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: We have the Crow, which is you know, you know
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: what that Batman was dark, but we really want to
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: go dark like and we mean dark. We have the Rocketeer,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: which is honestly, I adore the I think we all
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: three adore the Rocketeer, and the Rocketeer belongs much more
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: in this silly vein than it does in Batman Forever,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: So I in this silly vein than eighty nine Batman.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I think that part of the back and forth is
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: that whole thing about quote unquote de finding what a
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: comic book movie is. And I think that's sort of
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the dangerous territory that movie studios were getting into in
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: the nineties was there was no definition, and negative reactions
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: were all about what a particular person defined a comic
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: book movie as I mean, you had Judge Dread for
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Pete's sake, right, like what lane does that even belong in?
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: That's Disney's first, you know, like real foray into it
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: and everything. You have The Shadow, which was a reviled
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: movie at the time it came out, I love.
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: It, love that movie so much. I love the Shadow,
• 23:32
  Speaker 6: It's so great. And Adam boum, Hey, that's catchy. I
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: think that, uh, you know, it really revolves around that.
• 23:39
  Speaker 6: I can say firsthand that even though I got caught
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: up in the retrospective hatred of this movie, it's sort
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: of like when I saw Star Trek five when I
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: was very young, and it was with the first Star
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: Trek movie I saw in the theater and I walked
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: out of it and I was like, I really like that,
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: and then my relatives gently but very firmly.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: Said, no, you really didn't, and let's tell you why.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: And I think, if anything comic book movies, that's a
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: very fertile environment for those types of discussions, if that
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: makes sense. So I think Batman Forever lands really well
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: with everybody in general. I remember it being a big hit,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: and I think that the numbers speak to that. But
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: since we have another one to talk about, I would
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: be remiss to spend too much time here with Batman Forever.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: But before we get to Batman and Robin Darren, is
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: there anything you think we've left on the table here
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: that we haven't addressed about Batman Forever?
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: That you really wish we would have.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: So I rewatching this was really enjoyable because it had
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: been a while. It had been a long while since
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: actually had popped in this movie. It's not one of
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: my go tos. I needed to borrow it. I really
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: enjoyed Tommy Lee Jones' performance and the interaction between him
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: and Jim Carrey because one of my favorite action movies
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: is under Siege, and he's so much that same character,
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: that chaos character. He just happens to have a pink side,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: you know, and a non pink side, so visually it's
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: a little much, but I love just how he is
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: just it's Tommy Lee Jones. It's a perfect role for
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: him in that, and Jim Carrey's just being Jim Carrey.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: He's bouncing off the walls. He's, you know, definitely a
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: departure from what we'd seen in sixty six. That's a
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: very I want to say cerebrol, which is not a pun,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: but you know, I think they did a good job
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: with this pairing. We're gonna talk about more villain pairings,
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: but I think this villain pairing on paper does not
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: make sense. But you know, like I can't imagine an
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: episode of Batman, the animated series where the Riddler and
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Two Face teamed up like this, but it works somehow
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: in this story. And yeah, we're just getting more and more.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: We're tossing and Robin who kind of gets shoehorned origin
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: story in the byline, but it's there, you know, we
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: we get that. But yeah, overall, this is just it's
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: a fun movie and it enjoys being fun. And I
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: love the constant of Alfred. I think that's always a
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: you know, to to reference your bond metaphor that's c
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: sticking through, you know, even though he you know, you're like,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: does he not notice this is Val Kilbert. This is
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: a very different person.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: But you know that doesn't well, I think it's I
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: think it's it's terrific that you mentioned Tommily Jones and
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: enjoying him so much, because I can tell you as
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: a you know, two Face is right up there with
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: a joker for me, like, I adore the character, and
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: there's still a part of me that's like Tommy Lee
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Jones is playing a character called two Face, but it's
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: not the two Faces, I know. Yeah, but you know
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I can let that go. And the fact that Tommi
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Lee Jones told Jim Carrey how much he hated him on.
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: Some of that story.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: What what professionalism? Though, because it didn't wasn't across on screen.
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: It wasn't on set though it was at a restaurant.
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: Oh is it a restaurant? Okay, is at a restaurant?
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: He says, I cannot what do you say, I cannot
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: don your buffoonery or something like that.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Well, but I mean by that, But on set it
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: never came through. Like in the movie, you don't. You
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: don't look at this guy and be like, man.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: He hates Jim Carrey. You know he's a professional.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: He showed up and he's like, Eh, Tracy, what have
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I left on the table?
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: Anything before we meet?
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: I really wish we would We would have spent the
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: whole episode on Batman forever, because I feel like there's
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: so much more to talk about. Like even though I
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: really like Tommy Lee Jones as his interpretation of two Face,
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: because John, I totally get what you're saying. I really
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: do love this interpretation because it's so freaking insane and
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: it's so over the top that I loved seeing Tommy
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: Lee Jones chew the scenery and have fun with it.
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: But I completely I very much miss Billy Dee as
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: two face. But apparently Schumacher so vehemently did not want
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: Billy d as his two face that they paid him
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: because he had pay or play in his contract for
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: this character. And so Billy d You got a paycheck
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: for Batman forever even though he wasn't the character. Oh wow,
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: And apparently Vell Kilmer and Schumacher did not get along
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: at all. What's at all like Vel Kilmer had a
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: horrible time being in the suit. I don't he didn't
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: dislike the movie per se, but it was very much
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: like he was in constant pain. He lost weight because
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: of it. It was one hundred pounds. The suit was
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: one hundred pounds itself. And he couldn't hear anything, like,
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: he couldn't hear anybody when he was performing, so I
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: had to kind of read lips. And so there's so
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: much that's going on behind the scenes. And Schumacher was
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: more than happy to recast Kilmer, and Kilmer was more
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: than happy to say no thank you to Batman and Robin.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: As I recall, wasn't there an incident where Kilmer shoved
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: him during a disagreement on set. I remember reading that somewhere.
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't remember hearing that, and I didn't.
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: I didn't see it in my research lately. I'm not
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: saying it didn't happen, but I don't. I don't have
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: any recollection of it.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: But it was.
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a situation where I think there was
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: like two weeks where Kilmer completely didn't speak to Schumacher directly,
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: like it was just real diva stuff on set. And
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: Kilmer was very much known for that kind of business.
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: Like if you notice his his his career had many
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: peaks and valleys because he was often difficult to work
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: with and sometimes only worked on certain phases of the moon.
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: So you know, hey, you got to find your inspiration somewhere,
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: right and Nicole and also we haven't talked about Nicole Kidman.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, right, that is that is you know what,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that's a huge oversight. And honestly, I don't mind really
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: going over on the Batman Forever part because Batman and
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Robin is going to be a it's gonna be a weird,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: possibly brief discussion, So you nic Kidman here.
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: I don't do this very often on this podcast. I
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: don't have this kind of mentality and I don't express
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: these kind of feelings. But Nicole Kidman in ninety five
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: is Chase Meridian. This movie awakened certain things in me
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: as a nine year old, I found out and things
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: about myself with sugar and spice and leather and lace
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: with two Faces crew and Chase Meridian getting up to
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: say hello to Batman at midnight. It's just, yeah, this
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: movie is a cornerstone and figuring certain things out about myself.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that what's interesting is also is Pat
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Hingele continuing on as Commissioner Gordon. What I think is
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: interesting in that light and Darren you talked about how
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: you know Michael Goff as Alfred is a constant. What's
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: really fascinating to me is Hingle seems to change his
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: performance ever so slight. And that's where in this director
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: focused podcast, I will give Schumacher a lot of credit
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: because that's a director communicating to a veteran of the
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: previous two movies where there were different sets of rules.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: He obviously sat down with Hingele and he said, listen, Pat,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: I love you. I need you to play it a
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: little sillier than you did before. And to Kingle's credit,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Hinkle goes, I get you. I understand, Yeah, I see
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the set. I got you, man, I've been doing this
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: for decades. I'm totally on with you. Got it different?
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Five cool? And I got to give Schumacher a lot
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: of credit because Jim Carrey was a force of nature
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: at this point. But Schumacher gave guardrails, constructed guardrails in
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: such a way that Carrie's performance, while outsized, never goes
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: beyond the limits, like it doesn't become Jim Carrey's movie.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: There's a very thoughtful balance, struck and very and this
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: is a director very much in control of his set,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: who's not restraining his actor, but saying to his actor,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: give me this, but maybe you know, a little bit darker,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: maybe a little bit less over the top. Let's let's
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: work with what we want to do here as a whole.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: And I think it is one of those things where
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: he also then knows when to lean into what Carry's
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: talents truly were at that time and recognized, I would say,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: in Carrie a type of dramatic talent that others didn't see.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And there are certain moments in this where he gets
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: an unexpected little human touch out of carry. So that's
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: the praise I will give Schumacher. I think Schumacher understood
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: as well that Tommy Lee Jones didn't want to be
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: upstaged by Carrie and was like he didn't care what
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: was on the page two face was going to be
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: every bit as big as the Riddler, and the director understands, Okay,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: you know what, Tommie Jones is a big star on
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: his own right. I'm going to let him do what
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: he does, and I'm going to direct it in the
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: right way so that everything comes together. So I think you,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: if anything, Batman Forever is a terrific example of a
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: director knowing how to run his production in such a
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: way that the fault lines never show. He's able to
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: stitch everything together in a very, very sensible way. But
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: does that carry through to Batman and Robin two years
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: later with George Clooney stepping into the batsuit?
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: I know I went on for a bit about Schumacher's
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: a director there, Darren. If you watch Batman and Robin,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: do you see those same qualities of a director confidently
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: in charge of his movie set and directing it in
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: a certain way. Or do you see somebody going, all right,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: let's get the paycheck. Yo, Where do you see him
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: falling on that scale?
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: I mean that's definitely a scale. Oh gosh, Batman and Robin,
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: I mean you just mention it, and already people are
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: thinking because it is such as one to talk about
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: for sure. And I mentioned earlier about how I felt
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: the Riddler slash two Face, you know how bizarre pairing
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: it still worked. And Batman and Robin they are just
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: throwing rogues into the screen and it's so bizarre, like
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know why, but boys and Ivy and then
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Baine is there for some reason? Why not? And why
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: why not? Why not? That is exactly you know, that
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: is the theme of the movie. Why Not's We're gonna
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: have some some cool craziness going on. Why not they're
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: gonna talk about, uh, you know, buying people, you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: why not? It's just, yeah, it's coming off the rails
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: a bit. I think I guess to to go on
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: that scale. If this was Schumacher's first movie, I don't
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: think he would ever get forever. I agree, like, like,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: there's no way he would get a second movie, which
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: we know because this stopped his his Batman.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: This stopped the entire franchise for a decade.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: What does Clooney say, like, sorry, I killed the franchise,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: Like but not.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: That's where I'll call out Clooney. Clooney's being a team
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: player on that one. He took the bullet, he fell
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: on his sword down.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: For that one was he is a I'm first on
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: the call sheet. You have certain responsibilities kind of I will.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I've always given Clooney a lot of credit for taking
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: the blame because you know it's it is, it is
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: something something else. Tristan same question to you. Do you
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: agree with Darren Do you see the same confidence Schumacher
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: taking control in Batman Forever? Or does Batman and Robin
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: paint a different directorial picture for you.
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: I don't think it's a situation of things running out
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: of control. I don't even think it's a situation of
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: him not caring. I think he did care. I think
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: this is the movie that he wanted to make in
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: I think what happened was is that he learned the
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: wrong lessons from Forever. I think he got heat from Forever.
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: And there was a lot of issues about tone and
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: balancing of tone in Forever, because you have this very
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: serious exploration of Bruce Wayne Psyche mixed with a riddler
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: in green tights running around and you know there's baseball
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: theme music as he's grabbing crotch. You know that tone
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: is all over the place. And so I feel like
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: he kind of went in the direction that he's like,
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: He's like, Okay, well, I wanted to make Forever darker.
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: I wanted to have these explorations. The studio wouldn't let me.
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: People thought I had an uneven tone. Okay, I'm going
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: to make the tone consistent, and that's what he did.
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: And Batman and Robin it doesn't make it a good
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: movie and it at all, but it has a much
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: more consistent tone than Forever. Is it the wrong tone?
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: But I feel like with Batman and Robin, it's just
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: this is so if Forever is a is a perfect
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: comic book adaptation, you know, not saying it's it makes
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: it a perfect movie. But in my opinion, if it's
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: a perfect comic book adaptation, Batman and Robin is the
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: Adam West interpretation.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Oh I would I would actually go a step down
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: from that, and I would say Batman. If you talk
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: about like, oh, Batman Forever is a perfect comic book adaptation.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I would then say Batman and Robin is akin to
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: fire that like nineteen fifty seven issue of Batman in
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: the store where you open it up and you're like, man,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: they really hadn't figured this character out by that point.
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: Had That is one hundred percent way better than what
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: I said, and actually what I meant. Yes, I one
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: hundred percent agree with you on that one.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: Now see.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: I think a different part of it as well is
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: that Jim Carrey's coming up in Batman Forever. Val Kilmer's
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: star is being minted, but like it's still forming, Nicole
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Kidman's up and coming, Chris O'Donnell's up and coming. I
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: think with Batman and Robin, a real X factor to
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: it is Arnold Schwarzenegger, because Schwarzenegger brings his own script doctors.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Schwarzenegger wants his own one liners that he's known for
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: all of those sorts of.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: The Ice Age.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I uh, like, I remember seeing this movie in the
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: theater with my brother, and the one thing like we
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: were just aghast through the entire thing. And one thing
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: that I'll never forget is when poison ivy holds up
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: her little puppet plant. That's like talking in the jar
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: or whatever, and looking over at my brother who was
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: sitting on my left, looking over at him and getting
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: ready to say something snarky about it, and my brother
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: not even looking at me, and he just holds up
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: his hand as if to say, I can't even talk
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: about Let's just get through this man, and after the movie, like,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: my lord, were we off to the races now? An
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: interesting thing lately is there has been a lot of
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: review not reviews, but interviews with Schwarzenegger talking about his
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: competitiveness with Stallone. Have you guys seen his quotes about
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: how he got thirty million for this movie and why
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: he campaign so hard for thirty million for this movie?
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: Have you seen those yet?
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: No?
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Apparently it was because he was so upset that he
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: couldn't one up Stallone in terms of money, is why
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: he held out so hard for thirty million to prove
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: to Stallone that he was the bigger star. That's a
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: very paraphrased version of it, but it's a fascinating series
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: of interviews with Schwarzenegger where he was a aparently just
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: psychotically focused.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: On beating Stallone, of all things, well.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: With mister Freeze and Schwarzenegger.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: It's so awful.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Sorry, did me to speak for you. It makes me
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: think of two things. One, it reminds me back when
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: I think he was being considered for RoboCop at one point,
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: and the reason they didn't go with it it was
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: they said, oh, can you imagine someone that big in armor,
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Like they would be massive, and mister Freeze proves that point,
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: like he is ginormous in this movie. But the other
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: thing is reading from cryst O Donald talking about He's like, oh,
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I never shot a single day with Schwarzenegger, Like there
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: is so many like stunt, fill in person shot, reverse
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: shot that they and when you actually start to look
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: at it and think about it, you're like, oh, Schwarzenegger's
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: not even even scenes where you swear they would be together.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: You're like, no, those are actually both single shots, like
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: they're not in the same room together. And it's kind
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: of disappointing that you don't get that. It's just, you know,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: on top of this movie being heavily dubbed, heavily redubbed
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: to get all the sound in properly. So yeah, I mean, gosh,
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: if you're being paid thirty million for a movie to
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: be a headline villain. You know, it doesn't pull out
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: in the in the third act with the you know,
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: let the you know you've still got a heart beneath
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: the snow.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I'm like no, So you know, I'm glad, you know
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: we're talking about that because in terms of Schwarzenegger being
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: cast as you know, mister Freeze, you talk about the suit.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: My god, look at the ridiculous of the suit. Ridiculousness
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: of the suit. One of the things that we praised
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: about Batman Forever we've you know, been talking about, is
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: you know, the art direction. It looks beautiful and all
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Tristan, do you think that that
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: reduction sensibility carried forward or do you think they rushed
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: this way too? Fair Like, is this a victim as
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: well of trying to get it out to market as
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: quickly as possible and they should have waited another year
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: or two, given it more time to jesting.
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the production design of Forever felt deliberate. It felt
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: it was a very specific way of doing things and
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: way of presenting Gotham, and it was very different from
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: from Burton's Gotham. I mean incredibly different. That's why I
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: have a hard time feeling like the Schumacher era is
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: the same Batman as the Burton era. I have a
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: real problem reconciling that. I kind of feel like it's
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: a not so soft reboot where if you want to
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: ignore the previous two movies, you one hundred percent can,
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: Like if you erased Returns in eighty nine, nothing and
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: Forever changes, absolutely nothing changes, And I feel like, so
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: you could. I feel like, in my head, Forever and
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: Batman and Robin didn't happen to Keaton, but the things
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: that happened to Keaton did happen to Kilmer and Clooney,
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: but just in a different way. It's like, Okay, that's
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: kind of it's my own head canon. It doesn't mean anything.
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: It's just how I wrap my head around things. But anyway,
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: and so with that in mind, with it being so
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: different visually, that kind of lends itself to being like
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: this almost separate continuity. But in Batman and Robin, the
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: production design and how they present Gotham, you're just kind
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: of like, what are we doing here? You know, like
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: like it like it took the aesthetic of Forever and
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: then made it its own thing in Baton Rabben, like
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: when they're dry, like when Freeze and Robin and Batman
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: are driving on the statues themselves and like jumping off
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: the fingers. We're just like, Okay, you took something that
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: was interesting in forever, like with you know, like like
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: very Russian kind of Soviet Union esque statues, and then
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: you made it its own, like you just you enlarged
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: them by ten, a factor of ten, and then put
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: you know, said pieces.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like Gotham Metropolis, like it's it's.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: But not Superman Metropolis.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: You're talking about that the nineteen twenty yeah, classic film Metropolis.
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: I got, yeah, bad example. And so with that, it's
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: just kind of like it just it just felt off.
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: And I do I do want to say this before
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: before we move on too much. I love watching this movie.
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: Do I love this movie?
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: No?
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: Do I love watching this movie. Yes, it has taken
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: years and years to get to this point.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: I agree with you.
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: Yes, And Robin is so much fun to watch because
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: it's so stupid, it's so over the top, it's so silly,
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: and it's just so Colooney does a terrible job. I've
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: never liked Chris O'Donnell Alasia's Silverstone good lord.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: But the thing, don't get me started about Alisia Silverstone.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I'll get in trouble, but I will just say, don't
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: give her complex words to say in this movie because
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: it doesn't fly.
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: But Poison IVY, Yeah, you know, Uma Thurman knew exactly
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: what movie she was in. She knew exactly what she
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: was doing, She knew how to play it, she knew
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: how to deliver her lines. When you watch her and
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: you watch her delivery, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, she
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: is a part of this movie. George Clooney is not
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: in the same movie as Zumer. Thurman and Schwartzenegger kind
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: of goes back and forth a little bit where you're
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: just like, okay, like he's fun, he's over the top.
• 44:20
  Speaker 5: But at the same time you're just kind of like,
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: I don't know, I can't put my finger on it.
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: What am I trying to say here?
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Well, you're trying to say that Schwarzegger like, this is
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: a movie that doesn't come together, where the fault lines
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: are not stitched over or paved over or anything like that.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: This is a movie where you can tell that it's
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: made in parts and just assembled in the editing day
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: where people were just doing it. That's why I made
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: the collecting a paycheck thing. Do I think Schumacher is
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: that type of director. No, But I think two years
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: is incredibly fast to turn out a movie like this,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Like it's just incredibly fair. That means the movie gets
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Batman Forever gets released in ninety five, two years for
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: a movie at this scale. It's shocking to me that
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: it's the same cinematographer, because the movie looks like the
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: person who's shooting it didn't shoot the last one. They're
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: just flying by the seat of their pants trying to
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: figure it out. And I think possibly that's the case
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: because things were moving so quickly. It was like, we
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: don't have time to think about it, just do it,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: just get it done. We'll fix it in post sort
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: of thing that right there, we don't have time to
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: think about it, just do it. Yeah, I think that's
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: this movie. Sorry, Darren, that didn't mean.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: No, No, I agree, because you gave voice to what I
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: was trying to wrap my head around. Like I think
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: specifically of the monkey auction jungle scene, that that whole
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: you know you know what, I love.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: I love that so much.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: And the music.
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: I have no idea why I love that music so much.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I honestly, if there was ever a moment in my
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: life where I was like drinking is the correct choice
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: for me, it's that one right there.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: All right?
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Oh so, but but that scene, it that is the vibe.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: It It feels like, Okay, I showed up on the
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: set today, where where should we put that. Let's just
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: put the camera over there. Okay, let's try that. Like like,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: it does not feel pre produced. It feels like and
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: there's lots of parts of this movie that don't feel
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: that little bit of intentionality where you're like, that's a
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: really cool, like I can see what you're doing with
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: that shot. It's more like, let's just make sure we
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: got coverage, and especially with Schwarzenegger, in any scene, your
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: coverage is, you know, make sure you don't include mister
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: Freeze in the background of any shot that he's not
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: meant to be in because he's not actually here. We
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: can't actually get that. I mean, oh gosh, and then
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: you just throw in like there's like the two physic
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: moments that I just pull my hair out, one where
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: he his gun gets knocked out of his hand and
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: it like leaps, Yes, it's so obviously a reverse shot,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: so obviously a verse shot. And then he grabs the
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: vine and gives it a tiny tug and leaps onto
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: like why didn't you just jump? You obviously did not
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: need this vine in support to darn. Oh my gosh,
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: Darren Darren.
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: Okay, this man had a rocket that he was shooting
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: into space, and then Batman and Robin.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Sir sir cowb.
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think physics comes into the equation.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: Physics does not exist in this book. Okay. I wanted
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: to say, I want.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: To talk about Freeze seriously though for a moment, because
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: at this time I am deep into Batman the Enemy
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: in series, like that is my Batman. That was my
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: introduction to but I didn't read comics going up. That's
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: what introduced this. And gosh, the Freeze arc in Batman
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: the Enemy series is so good. Is such a great
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: take on the character. This is so much like I
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: watched those few episodes of Batman sixties that had Egghead
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: and mister Freeze and the weirdest of villains, and it's like, gosh,
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: if you if this movie had sent it around Freeze
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: really in that tragic manner. My gosh, it could have
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: been amazing, and that is not at all what we got.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: So although I will offer a thought that I offered
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: to you before, Darren, where there is no planet on
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: which doctor Freeze, who is also like an Olympic was
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: it triathlete, triathlete to cathlete whatever? Yeah, something like that, Yeah,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: where he's done research, where he's figured out the cure
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: for stage one of a disease, and pharma companies and
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: or governments aren't lighting up to be like, what are
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: you doing here? No, here's a dump truck of money.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Help us figure this out, please, Like, he doesn't need
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: to go around looking for funding. This is his motivation
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: is completely way off the charts.
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: And maybe don't sync that funding into a got dang
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: rocket suits.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: His irresponsibility in spending might have been a problem. That's
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: that's true.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: Snowy code hideout. That's not free, it's not cheap. Are
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: you spend money? We got out of your books, mister Freeze.
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: And we know why was Vivik a fox in this there?
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: Why was she there? I don't know, I have no idea.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: What a waste?
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: What a weird casting decision?
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: I mean the thing is Batman Robbine could also be
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: one of those ones that like spurs that deeper discussion
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: of like why do Henchman hang out with these guys?
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Like is there a health plan? Like what's the four
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: oh one K for one of these guys because he's
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: killing people and freezing.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: Me to death.
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: We uh, my my sister and my father and I
• 49:45
  Speaker 5: went and saw this uh because we loved Batman Forever
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: so much, all three of us. We loved it like
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: we bought it on. We bought Forever on via just DVD,
• 49:53
  Speaker 5: Blu ray, and four K. We absolutely loved this movie.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: This was a family Frae favorite sands, my mother and
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: then and one thing that my sister absolutely loved was
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: that ending shot of Forever, like the over the top,
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: the running at the camera in front of the of
• 50:10
  Speaker 5: the bat signal. It was a really cool way to
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: set it. Different from the keat nesk just looking off
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: into the distance, because they even did that in Mask
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: of the Phantasm where he's standing on top of a
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: building and looking at the signal. This was this was
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: much more presentational. This was much more theatrical, and my
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: sister absolutely loved it. And I think she even tried
• 50:32
  Speaker 5: to get like a poster of it. And then when
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: they did it again in Batman and Robin. But yet
• 50:36
  Speaker 5: with bat Girl, she lost her mind. She's like, they
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: ruined it. They absolutely ruined It's like yes, and like
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: she's walking out of the theater just screaming to us
• 50:48
  Speaker 5: about this. And then she's like and Alicia's Silverstone. She
• 50:51
  Speaker 5: never stops moving her lips. It's so freaking weird.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I can also say that, you know, as a Batman fan,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: and my brother, you know, is a huge Batman fan.
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: He's a Rea became a.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Babet blah blah blah blah blah, all that stuff we've
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: said before. When we heard Bain's going to be in this,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: we were like, oh wow, Baine of Nightfall fame is
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: going to be in this movie and what would mean
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: the military genius ba oh my word. That was definitely
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: the thing that we hung on because Darren, this is
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: a fine you know, like, is there any aspect of
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: the Bain character divorce him from the beauty that is
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: in the comics or Tom Hardy's fun interpretation of him
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: in Dark Knight Rises. Is there anything about this Henchman
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: version of Bain where you find particular value? Was he
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: necessary to anything?
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: Now? I mean you you just said it. He's a henchman.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: He's a glorified like he does not even need to
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: be Baine. He could just be the big the you know,
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: she breaks into freezes Layer and it's like, oh, look
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: there's a big henchman. He's gonna go work for me.
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: Same movie, like I didn't need a special super soldier
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Sierra just to break walls and be a monosyllabic Like
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: there's nothing about that. I mean, is a little funny,
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: you know when they're coming off the airplane in the
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: stock photo and then he's dressed in his tred Like, yeah,
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: that's funny. You know it's really dumb, but you know
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: that's it. It's there's like you would not it feels
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: like Bane you say the name, but then watching this movie,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: you're like, am I supposed to know who that is?
• 52:24
  Speaker 6: Is?
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: This? Is that a? Is he a notable presence in
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: Batman Lower? Because I would not guess it based on
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: this movie.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: No, No, you wouldn't guess it from this movie. But
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: what you would guess is I think it's very clear
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: that Batman fans While they might have gone back and
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: forth a bit about Batman Forever, they all found something
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: to like about it, at least as did audiences in general.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Batman and Robin was a different tale.
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: It's reportedly up to one hundred and sixty million dollar budget.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: They brought back two hundred and thirty eight million, and
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: regardless of whether you think that's successful, it did in
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: fact kill the franchise for almost a decade. It's Superman
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: for them, real hard. So with all of that in mind,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: we have two ratings to give here, Darren, I'm going
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: to toss it to you first. Where are you coming
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: in with Batman Forever on the vaunted five star scale?
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: And where are you coming in with Batman and Robin?
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, Batman Forever it is a lot of fun.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: I think we all really enjoy it. It's also not
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: one of those movies that I feel like you have
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: to have seen it in the nineties to get it
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: to be like I enjoy this because of the nostalgia.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: It's just it's just fun. If you can get on
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: board with kind of the wackiness and the chewing of
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: the I mean, they're all chewing the scenery so hard,
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: so so hard in that movie. But that's what it is.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: You're you're easily within the first few minutes totally know
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: what you're gonna get from this movie. And if you're
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: on board, you're fine. And then you know, with Batman
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: and Robin Ash, you come in into it like okay, okay,
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: here we go, and then you're like, what am I watching?
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Is happening on the screen? The single seat batmobile that
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: looks like a gold cart. It's so small. Does it
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: make any sense? I mean, why does the water turn red? John?
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Why does it turn red when he's melting him? Water?
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: Does it turn red unless it's blood. It's like the
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: water should be bubbling, But I know visually it's like
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: red hot, blue, cold. But water is a change color
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: when you heat it. So anyway, anyway, anyway, I'm coming back,
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: coming back. No, I'm gonna honestly start with Batman and
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: Robin just for watchability. It's definitely higher. It's just a
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: fun romp. For quality of movie, it's a one. It's
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: a it's just this movie is it's it does cross
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: into the it's so bad. It's good, But that doesn't
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: mean the rating is moving up. I'm sorry, I can't
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: uh as far as as Batman Forever. I really enjoyed
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: this rewatch of it. It was really enjoyable. You know,
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: is it the best Batman it? You know, it depends
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: on your mood and your time of day and how
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: you're feeling about what you want to watch. But I'm
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: I'm giving I'm gonna give it a solid three. It's
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: it's a it's a really enjoyable movie. And on this rewatch,
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm gonna watch this again more often. I
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: think it's it's definitely bringing it back into the into
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: the fold. So a three for Batman and Forever and
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: a one for Batman and Robin.
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: To know, one's surprise now, Teresa, I'm gonna let you
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: go last.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go next, and I'm going to say that Darren,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: I like you're the way you're approaching it. I'll also
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: go and reverse because I want to end on an
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: upnote as opposed to just, you know, curb stomping Batman
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: and Robin on the way out the door. Batman and
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Robin I traditionally given a half star. I'll go ahead
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: and give it one star simply because I do in
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: fact enjoy hating it. This is a movie that actually
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: makes me feel better about myself because I feel like
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: I can watch it and say I.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Think I could do better.
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: We all fall into that egotistical trap.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: But this is a movie where I really feel like
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: if I'd been on set in any capacity, I could
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: have given counsel that could have made things better. It's egotistical,
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: but I still am drawn to it, like a moth
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: to a flame, like a slow motion car wreck, like
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: a train derailment. I still rewatch it. If I hate
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: it that much, Why am I rewatching it? Because it's Batman,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: and I just I don't know. I find some comfort
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: in how much it sucks. So it's a one Batman
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: forever I have very much warmed up to over time.
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: I'm coming in with a three, but.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: That is actually over over the time since it's been released,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: it has gone through a wild range of ratings. But
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna stick with a three because everybody, I'll
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: borrow word from Utris and this was intentional, and I
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: can get behind intentional. Don't love it, don't hate it.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: There are things about it that I do like, So
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: it's intentional.
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: It's a three.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Stars, and then Tristan, I see the floor to you
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: to take us.
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: Home well with with Batman and Robin.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: I can't.
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: I can't give it a one because to me, on
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: my scale, a one is a waste of film, one
• 57:17
  Speaker 5: and a half is a Walmart bin. And so I'm
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: giving it a two as just straight bad. Don't don't
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: overreact like two is some some voluntacting.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Tristan rating this higher than us. I did not see
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: that on my Bengal card today. No.
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: I think the reason why is just because it's it's
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: one of those things. It's kind of like a riff
• 57:38
  Speaker 5: tracks effect. It's so much I get so much enjoyment
• 57:42
  Speaker 5: from it that this isn't like bird Demic where it's
• 57:45
  Speaker 5: painful to watch, or where it's the room where you're
• 57:49
  Speaker 5: like you get enjoyment from it, but yet it's just
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: absolutely poorly made. I mean, like that that deserves a one.
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: I mean that's the thing is that, like the room
• 57:56
  Speaker 5: deserves one star, but you still get five stars worth
• 57:59
  Speaker 5: of joint. Batman and Robin is not one star in
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: my mind, because you still it's it's still something that's
• 58:07
  Speaker 5: put together. You have to really really piss me off
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: for me to give you a one or a one
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: and a half or a half star. I can't even
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: remember the last time, Like Darren, you you might. You
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: have the sheet in front of it, you can tell
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: me what I gave one star. But yeah, to me,
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: I'm giving it two stars because it's like two stars
• 58:25
  Speaker 5: is bad to me, like two stars is bad, Like Okay,
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: this is a bad film, but yet I still get
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: a lot of joy out of it. With Batman Forever,
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: I want to give it four stars.
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: I really do.
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: I want to give Batman Forever four stars, but I
• 58:37
  Speaker 5: can't because there are things that I think are wrong
• 58:40
  Speaker 5: with it. There are times when they go a little
• 58:43
  Speaker 5: bit too a little bit, there are times when they
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: go too far, and so I have to give it
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: a three like the rest of you, I think. I
• 58:50
  Speaker 5: think that's I get a lot of a lot of
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: pleasure out of out of watching Batman Forever. I'm going
• 58:54
  Speaker 5: to continue to watch it. It's more than three stars
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: in my mind, but in reality, I'm giving it.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The last time you gave a one was for
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: A nightmaron Elm Street, which was in absolutely hated. But
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: you did also give a one point five for Cobra
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: so yeah, those are Bottomy Barrel for sure.
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: I think mad Max too. Didn't you give mad Max
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: a one? Yeah? So I think he gave mad Max
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: a one.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: It doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't give it a one.
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, anyway, we all gave it.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: We all gave it a one.
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean we're still in the wing of Batman.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Our summer series continues with somebody who wears a suit
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: that would undoubtedly chaf and cause issues during summer. So,
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: you know, Darren, where are we pointed next?
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: Well, the franchise didn't exactly die, but it did take
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: a while to recover. Next, we're going to be covering
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: Christopher Nolan's take on the Dark Night with Batman begins
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: from two thousand and five. Next on House Like This,
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Join
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: The Revolution, Join the net Party.