Latest / The soulnotskin Podcast with Jen SluMac / Not In My Backyard, Until It’s My Nephew - Pr. Carlton

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Not In My Backyard, Until It’s My Nephew - Pr. Carlton · The soulnotskin Podcast with Jen SluMac

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The the good thing about this program is that it has proven to be eighty-five percent successful.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, eighty-five percent of the inmates who are released into this program do not re-offend.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is the exact opposite of uh what happens to regular inmates.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who are eighty-five percent of them recidivate, right?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Which means come back for similar or the same.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Soul Not Skin Podcast, a virtual living room, a safe, welcoming place to land where you can pull up a chair and share stories straight from the heart.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Jen Splumack, or as my students like to call me, Miss Jen.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about the real human experience, the hard stuff, the wonderful stuff, and the messy everyday growth that shapes who we become.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Real stories, real people, real insight, becoming who we are.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Settle in and let's dive into today's episode.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: I have a gentleman here with me that I am excited to introduce you to.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is a gentleman who is an ordained pastor and an ordained chaplain in uh Ontario, Canada.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Pastor Carlton is involved in a prison ministry.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: So um welcome to the show.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: And would you tell our audience a little about who you are?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Surely.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I I was a local church member uh back in 1992 when I was first introduced to ministry inside a prison in Ontario, in the city of Toronto.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And a group of us from the local church, we we went to the prison on a Saturday afternoon to conduct a a worship service in the chapel of what was then the Toronto Don Jail.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And my interaction with the inmates that came to the chapel for the service impressed me to the extent that I fell in love with the ministry and continued from 1992 until 2020 when I was given a a new assignment by the Ontario Conference of my church as the prison ministry coordinator.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And up to that point in time I was also the trainer for volunteers from our local churches who went into prisons and who also would minister to the families of prisoners that are living in their local church communities.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So important.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So important.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So since 2020, my focus has been to coordinate this ministry across the Ontario Conference, which which consists of we're divided into eleven districts, and we have a total of 181 local church congregations in uh in all those 11 districts.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I I continue to do that as my my assignment from the church.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It involves traveling and it involves uh going to conventions and uh like prison ministry conventions where you know you pick up information from others in in in other areas of North America who are involved in the same ministry.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you can inform uh yourself and those people that I train to to be more efficient, to do a better job of uh ministry to inmates and their families.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't mind, Pastor Carlton, you mentioned that you were impressed when you first went in to do a service.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us about that.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: What what do you mean by that?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: We always thought that prisoners were these big, tough, you know, men who you know you couldn't penetrate them emotionally.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in that that first uh chapel service once the gospel was preached to these men, I saw these huge, you know, strong men, rough looking men, they're crying.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're crying tears.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because the love that comes through uh a sharing of the gospel with them reaches them even emotionally.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: In uh in the Canadian uh perspective, there are two systems.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's the provincial system that is run by the solicitor general of the province.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Those facilities are under his jurisdiction.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then there is the correctional services of Canada, which is the federal system.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: The difference between the two, there are many differences.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: The first difference is that the inmates in the provincial system are those who are sentenced to terms of less than two years, or as they say, two years less than one day.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Those that are sentenced to two years or more, they are shipped to the federal system to serve those sentences.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that the provincial system is fairly, I would say, lenient in that there are some there are some privileges afforded to the provincial inmates that make uh make the the the system seems more humane.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Such as they have uh TV in in the units where where uh a unit in may vary from maybe ten to thirty-five uh men.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: In the in the in the female system it's it's a little different in that there are there are much less females in the system.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: But the there's a key uh policy that those who minister to the men or women on the inside are not allowed to to make contact with their families on the outside.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this is why in our ministry in in our church we train local church members to seek out the families of those who are incarcerated and minister to them.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now there is a there's an entity in Ontario that goes in and seeks permission from the inmates to to share their family information to those who are registered in order to do this ministry to the families.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the primary way in which we get connections to these families.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's basically a gift-giving uh system where gifts are beginning at Christmas time, gifts are prepared by the church and distributed to the children in the name of the parent that's incarcerated, whether it's the father or the mother.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so we maintain that contact between the children and the incarcerated parent.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's wonderful because one of the things, one of the costs that isn't always figured in when trying to see, you know, what it's impacting our economy or you know, dollars spent on incarcerating all of these people that we incarcerate, rarely is the cost to the children at home or the cost to the community, or the cost to the economy, right?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: To have folks who are not participating in their family lives, in their communities, as mentors, or or as you know, working adults.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I think giving them the opportunity to get uh toys from their parents, it's uh it's not a dad or a mom at at Christmas by the tree, but it's certainly a second best, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we we we also expand that to you know holiday other holidays and birthdays and you know, Thanksgiving time, so that uh the local church uh would develop relationships with that left-behind family.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And normally it's the it's the man, the husband or the father that's in in in prison, and so it impacts the family financially right away.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: The breadwinner is in jail, and the family suffers financially.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: The children also suffer when they go to school, they are they're mocked and ridiculed, you know, called names, and so they don't function well in school.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So our local churches try to develop programs to to help them in terms of being advocates, you know, visiting their school and uh and uh speaking to the the principal or the the class teacher to give them a you know an idea of uh what's happening with the child while the child is malfunctioning in school.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and some uh some of the principals are quite uh compassionate, but you know, uh some of the kids can be uh real real cruel.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I tell you as you're telling me this, Pastor Carlton, I hear these naysaying folks in the back of my mind, uh, just really sort of the whole idea of well, it's it's nice of the church to go and and try to, you know, um advocate for the child and to stand in uh for the breadwinner and such, but you know, the guy shouldn't have committed a crime.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's what's he doing committing a crime?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Why is he in jail and why did why does anybody else have to step in and raise his family?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've heard that before when I'm working inside.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: What do you say to that?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: What are what would you say?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: What's the percentage?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you have these numbers, but what's the percentage of people who are working prior to being incarcerated or allegedly committing a crime?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there are a variety of occupations represented in the uh the system, but there are a lot of inmates who were not employed.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they were either on uh government assistance or or not employed at all.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so they engaged in uh crimes to make money.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and so of course, is that for lack of better options?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why commit a crime to get money?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm being a devil's advocate here.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: I have these answers, but I wanna I wanna say some of the things that I've heard in case people in the audience are wondering these things.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why weren't they working?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna say before COVID, I guess a higher percentage of them worked and earned money.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: But COVID introduced a system of supports that uh caused a lot of men to shrink from holding on to a job because sometimes what they were being paid on the job is less than what the government support is, and so they choose to stay home and uh take the government support.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And because the uh both the city government and the provincial government offer support, these uh these families take advantage of both.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And some even apply in different jurisdictions to get double or triple what they uh they are entitled to.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when they get caught, they end up in jail.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes that's the crime.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's the crime, yes.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: If we look at it from the point of view of the economy, the current uh the current generation and the generation before who have been, you know, they've been going to high sch graduating high school, going to colleges, taking degrees, and when they get out, they can't find jobs.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they either have to do volunteer work to get some experience so they can find a job, or they work in a different field from the field that they studied and graduated in, even professional fields.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's been a lack, say a lack of say nurses in in Ontario, because the the uh you know the nursing field has experienced a lot of trauma and uh mental issues that cause some of them to quit.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking about male and female nurses.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: That have caused them to quit nursing?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: To quit, yes, because of the trauma that they experience from it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And even the fatigue, you know.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the hours that that medical staff have to work, nurses and doctors.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just inhumane.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's insane that, you know, we're going in there and and laying our bodies on the table for for medical help, and these people have worked 17, 20 hour shifts.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and during COVID, uh quite a quite a few of them quit because they didn't want to be exposed to it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of these a lot of these folks become unemployed, and uh based on the fact that they they quit uh these jobs.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And when you quit your job, there's only a certain mo amount of help that you get, you know, through unemployment insurance, which you pay into while you're working.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Makes sense.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask you about the folks that you minister to.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: As you sit with these individuals, do you see poverty as a backdrop to a lot of their stories?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see that their their childhoods have a lot in common, or is it sort of just all over the place?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: What do you find?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there is a certain percentage of of men who, you know, they present a s a similar background in terms of how they were brought up.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them come from broken families, especially families without fathers.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the mothers didn't earn enough to cover all the expenses, so they went out and did crime, what they considered to be safe crime, but I tell them there's no safe crime.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because once you're caught, you're gonna pay the price.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh it's my it's my purpose when I meet with these inmates to let them realize that they have been given time to sit and think about their past.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And to figure out a plan to make their future better.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I give them pointers as to how they can do that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the pointers that I give them are biblical principles and just common sense stuff that, you know, our parents taught us when we were growing up.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: I also meet one-on-one with those men who who who ask for me to meet with them because they have issues that they would like me to help them deal with.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time, even when I do Bible studies with them, I ask them to tell me what are the the life issues that they are dealing with that particular day when I'm there, and I give them answers to those issues based on what God has has revealed concerning those issues.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I I educate them as to how they can practically apply those principles to the to their lives.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, their their their thinking has to change.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Some families would basically reject them or you know, etcetera.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: But but what I also find is some of the inmates they will rotate from place to place.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I see them in the institution again.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So they move around sometimes in groups, and they really have no most of them have no proper schooling.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: They are they have no experience handling money.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them they can't count properly.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I mean it's it's severe, you know, and in California it costs twice as much to uh incarcerate one individual per year, like$120,000 or something like that, is twice as much as it would cost to put them in school for a year or to, you know, build out.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, at what point do we begin to invest in the community that folks are, you know, there's a higher percentage in certain communities of folks who are socioeconomically challenged and surrounded by food deserts and all of these things.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: At what point do we begin to invest in the community in an effort to prepare people for life in a different way?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because you do, you have these grown men who cannot read.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because maybe a father was gone and they became the man of the household at about seven or ten years old.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I knew guys who were in my classroom who were not just the head of the household for their house, they also were taking care of aunties and cousins, and they were the breadwinner for the generations that were sort of families.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sir.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is a tremendous lack of boundaries and responsibility for anybody, especially when your identity as a man is supposed to be, we're socialized that men are supposed to be able to handle it, afford it, and make it happen.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, what kind of pressure are we putting on these individuals without by not investing in the communities so that there's more opportunity and more capacity?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well security.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can say that in the Ontario provincial system, they provide both professionals and also volunteers to provide what we call the GED program.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, sir.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: To teach them to read and to to attain like a high high school uh diploma within the institution so that when they when they are released, they have some form of education that they can use.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: The big problem is between the society, the community, and the church, once they reveal that they were in jail, you know, all that is nullified because nobody wants to hire them.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even the ones that are fully reformed, because I've had experience with, you know, many of those gentlemen.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: One in particular that that I took under my wing and found him a place to live, lots of clothes, shoes.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: He he was released on two years privation.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I worked with him through those two years and he never he never re-offended.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: He wa he he went to each of his meetings with his parole officer during that time, and and when he was fully released, he was able to start working in a restaurant as a chef.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was part of the the training that he received while he was in jail.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yet to this day, the the the room that I rented for him to live in, the owner of the place to this day does not know that he was in jail because I did not reveal that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had baptized this young man in the prison, I presented him as a church member that had some housing issues.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And on my reputation, that room was rented.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I paid the rent for half a month, and by the middle of the month, he was able to get himself a job and was able to pay his own rent.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, with with the right training and help, those that are released can't find their way.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: It leaves the people in the society, and I would dare say, even in the church, to step up to assist them to to reintegrate them into the community.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and thank you for that.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen a lot of uh men and women who have uh benefited from from the GED class and the uh food handlers certification and and Chef class and barbering and all of these things that when they get out, they're able to get full-time employment and they're able to do some of that.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I've also seen folks who uh get out and they just they can't function.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: True.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: We get confused about how they return to the family and how they return to the community or why they end up back so quickly, right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: I've had folks say, well, it's just that's just who they are.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: They're never gonna change.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: There are some that I would say that's true for.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I've also seen some who really, really, really want to change.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and they don't have anybody in the community to help them adjust, or as we were speaking earlier, have the language to articulate what they're experiencing.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and even their families reject them when they are released.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the families don't visit them while they're in the institution either.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that is a trauma in itself.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, I remind the you know, the men, especially the ones that have wives and and children, you know, left behind in the community.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I remind them how much the these wives, uh, girlfriends, baby mothers, whatever they call them, how much grief they're going through.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like they are also in jail, too.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they're with the truth.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: With the financial situation that they're, you know, they they're left with, it's they might as well be in jail.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where I encourage, you know, my local churches to get in the game, you know, visit these uh families and and essentially befriend them.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there there is there is a a a five-step uh approach that Jesus used when he walked the earth to get to know people.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: First he mingled with them, he desired their good.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the reason he mingled.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes and in in the mingling, seeing to find out how he can help them, he showed his sympathy for them.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: He found out what their needs were and he ministered to those needs.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: He gained their confidence.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, they trusted him.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And once that trust is there, he says to them, Now, follow me.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of folk a lot of folks when they first go, they want to do it backwards.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't work backwards.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: If people don't trust you, they won't listen to what you have to say, they won't do anything that you ask them to do.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that trust has to be built up first.
• 24:54
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that trust is built up through how you treat them, how how how you figure out what their needs are, and once you figure that out, you actually help them.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, that's such a wild concept.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Such a wild concept.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to somebody, treat them with dignity, honor their needs, help meet their needs, and provide hope and love.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's ridiculous.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where did you come up with that formula?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: I tell you, it's it's all we need to do.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's in the Bible.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: But but, Pastor, a lot of people will say, well, folks, they did it to themselves.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to be in jail, don't commit the crime.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want your family to be falling apart, then don't commit the crime, right?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And there's sort of this mindset for for folks who have never lived in in environments that sort of produce this, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's easier said than done.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: First, I remind people that we are all sinners.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're all capable of committing all those crimes that we read about, that we meet people who have committed them.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in a lot of cases, I even say to people, I say, some of us who are not incarcerated have committed some of those same crimes, but we have not been caught yet.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, we ought to be empathetic.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: We ought to show sympathy for these folks.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: We ought to understand that if we were in their circumstances, most likely we would do the exact same thing.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: When people understand that, when people understand that, then uh you know they they become a l just a little less critical, but they still say they should have known better.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us what some of those circumstances are.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Had they been in the same circumstances, they may have made some of the same choices.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: What circumstances are you talking about?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: If someone has no job, if a man has no job, he has a wife and two or three child children, and they're they're all hungry, and he goes to the food bank and he can't get enough food to feed the family.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: They might say you can get food one day a week.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And after th that one day a week, food is used up, and he's there looking at his hungry kids.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, how does he deal with that?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So he may go out on the street and somebody offers him uh a hundred dollars to do something that he knows is not right, but in order to feed the kids, he does it for the hundred dollars and get caught doing it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And next thing you know, that man is in jail.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that has happened hundreds and thousands of times.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, to people.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: And there's different there's different there's different uh levels of that, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's a very simple explanation, but there's different levels of complexity with that formula that you just stated.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: I knew a young I knew a young man in Chicago, Illinois, uh that his name was Juan, and his father had been murdered.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: His mother was raising him and his younger brother, and she was she had some injuries or something that she became addicted to opiates, which ended up being heroin, which she was using.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And they had a house that they were paying a mortgage on, and Juan was in high school, and he dropped out of high school and he dealt drugs so that he could pay the mortgage, put his little brother through school, yeah, and keep his mother honestly high so that she didn't kick or die from the heroin addiction.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he ended up getting shot point blank in a deal gone wrong.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: And now his whole family is without any hope, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: But he had changed his life, his chance, his hope in an effort to, you know, but we don't hear those stories until we sit down with folks inside.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and hear the motivation.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And they're not all stories like this.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Some of, you know, sometimes you shouldn't have died, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: We know that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so the thing the thing with the Canadian system is you're forbidden to ask an inmate what their crime was.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: But once they once they trust you, they will tell you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they'll tell you if they're guilty or or not.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And many of them, they will plead guilty in order to get out of jail.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because they they would you know, they they they would get sometimes just time served.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because while they're waiting for their trials, they're in jail.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So do you actually have trials?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, are is there actually sufficient bandwidth within your system that should all of the young people who have, you know, are prejudicated in the jail system, or I guess that might be in your provincial system.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if that r really equates, but could they all have trials?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because they couldn't here.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: The whole system would crash.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's completely plea bargains.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: The pr the provincial system have trials.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now they have video trials.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the inmate stays in the detention center, and they have the trial, they they they they participate in their own trial by video.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a trial by your peers, or is this a trial where you have your public defender tell you what you should do and whether you should plead guilty or not guilty?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so the first step, that's the first step.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: They are arraigned and then they have to plead, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes their cases get put off time and time again, because the the the the government lawyer that is appointed to take care of their defense doesn't show up for court.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So things get dragged out some sometimes for months.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're traumatized and they're exhausted.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And some even complain that when they call the the lawyer that's uh appointed to defend them in court, they can't get through.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, that's not uncommon.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so so they spend more time waiting for their trial to begin than they ought to.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a limit here that if your your tri your trial isn't isn't adjudicated, if your case is not adjudicated within a certain period of time, they have to drop the charges.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And adjudicated for the audience means what?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: It means like you're you're arrested on a charge, but you have to go to court and be proven guilty before you're actually adjudicated, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Adjudicated means you have gone through the full process.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: And you're charged.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and evidence has been given to the court.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's a if it's just a judge, then the judge will declare you guilty or innocent.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a jury, then the jury will declare you guilty or innocent, and then you're sentenced, if you're guilty.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if you're not guilty, then you're dis discharged from the from the court.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Discharges you from wherever you were spending time being on remand, as they say up here.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're held on remand until your case is adjudicated.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're kept in uh in uh in a jail or a detention center, but you apply for bail, and then go to the court, and the court decides whether they're gonna grant you bail or not.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, understood.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Until your trial comes comes up.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's there are little differences between the Canadian and the U.S.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: system in terms of how cases are adjudicated.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I could learn a lot from you about the two systems.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm, you know, forgive my ignorance.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm still learning this one here.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's a mess.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna ask you, uh, one of my passions, Pastor, has always been restorative justice.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us about your experience with restorative justice?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do believe that you do that there as well.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: In in in Canada, the restorative justice is based on the native uh the system of justice that the native people use.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: It has to do with making restitution for you know for what you have done rather than being punished.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the one of the sist one of the uh programs that illustrates restorative justice is referred to as circles of support and accountability.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you're familiar with that.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is specifically for sexual offenders who have been released on parole into the community.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: The the government of Canada contracts certain organizations to run these circles.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: A circle is made up of three to five persons and the the parolee and the person that runs the circle.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've served on about uh eight or nine of those circles over the years, and these circles, as as it says in the in the description of it, it's a circle of support and accountability.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: So each person that's paroled, the court grant them parole, well, the parole board through the court grant them parole with a list of conditions that they have to meet consistently over the period of their parole.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so the circle, when we meet with them, we discuss with them their day-to-day life and the issues that come up.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Most of these men um are on uh medication to to to reduce their desire for for sexual activity.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're they have to report to the circle any you know thoughts that they've had, you know, in relation to, you know, a desire to re-offend.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: The the good thing about this program is that it has proven to be eighty-five percent successful.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, eighty-five percent of the inmates who are released into this program do not re-offend.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is the exact opposite of uh what happens to regular inmates.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Who are 85% of them recidivate, right?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Which means come back for similar or the same.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the the program was developed in Canada, and uh the US, some parts of the U.S.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: have have adopted it.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Great Britain has, Australia has, and I believe I can't remember which European country that has adopted it also, but it has proven very successful, especially for sex offenders.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's very interesting.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Restorative justice is sort of a set of principles that can sort of be put together and to build programs in different ways.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think primarily they they focus on uh I think restorative principles will focus on uh the impact on victims, for one.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the victim gets a voice in what is needed or what has happened to them.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and then to the name of the circle that you mentioned, there's also sort of an education for the individual who perpetuated the offense, and then having them understand themselves differently, have it a different lens on the choices that they made, then taking accountability and then from that making a commitment.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: In recovery, we call it a living amends.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but in in the circle of restorative justice, we would call it uh that you're gonna go forth and be a peacemaker in the community, that you will continue to do this work with folks in your communities and folks inside the prison because what we're doing is we're healing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're getting to the roots of what, you know, we're pulling up the roots of what keeps causing the problems and the conflict.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, part of the difficulty that we have up here in Canada is communities don't want uh some of these folks in their communities.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: They um they protest, they they challenge their uh members of uh the legislature, member of parliament to to not have any of these because you know they have set up some residences in certain areas specifically for these folks.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're speaking specifically of the sex offenders?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you need them, you know, you know the NIMBY print principle, right?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, yeah, not in my backyard.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a problem here now with uh with that situation, even with regular regular inmates, you know, that are being released.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: It is what I find is it's a minority of even church members that are willing to to reach out to to these folks and to assist them once they are returned to the community.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: At the present time, my uh my church conference is in the process of setting up a what we what we call a reintegration center.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a drop-in center that that folks can come and be helped in terms of teaching, training, help with preparing, you know, to to to do interviews for jobs, finding employers who will employ former inmates because there are such people, but it's it's in the works and it it probably won't be for another year or two before the the building is ready uh for uh the programming to to begin.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's just an estimate.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I I can't tell specifically when the program would be ready to roll out to the community.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: But we are certainly working on it at the present time.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's good to hear.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: You told us a little about how you sort of interact with the children and uh support the family, but what do you find is the the greatest challenge or pain point for the family when it comes to the individual who's been incarcerated?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Apart from the the financial difficulties and the the social uh, how should I put it?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're they're they're discounted socially, so to speak.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: I find that even uh some church members are not willing to to show the compassion, the love of Christ to these folks as they ought to.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: What I try to do is encourage them to take that initiative by remembering that the people that are incarcerated are people just like just like them, just like us.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned before, they are brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, uncles and aunts, cousins, yes, just like uh family members of all.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there are many uh families in the church who have incarcerated members.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it's sort of like a big secret.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's right, because there's so much shame.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: But we could we could open that up.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: We could we could discount the shame.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: The the thing is there's a stigma attached to it that it seems like it won't go away.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because for the number of years that I've been encouraging my folks to to take a look at that aspect.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Seeing those people as people like themselves, and thinking of the fact that if the circumstances were reversed, they might be in the same situation.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: It it it takes a while for that to settle on on people's minds, much less for them to accept it and to become active in helping to minimize.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sir.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say that that's a tremendous amount of uh reconciling things within oneself that needs to happen before you can really authentically uh do that because there's a tremendous amount of fear.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think so much of it is fear of what these people have done or what these people could do to me, to my family.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not gonna go and engage and be vulnerable with them.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna go and you know spend my time sort of, you know, providing hope or love or kindness to them.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're a danger to my community.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I'm gonna be safe tonight when I go to sleep.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people are afraid, and fear is one of the most fantastic barriers between us.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's rarely, I don't know if rarely is accurate, but let me say this.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: In my experience, the things that we fear the most tend to sort of dissolve once we meet somebody who identifies as that thing or that type of person that we feared.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And especially that somebody, especially if that somebody is a family member.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sir.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like, you know, it's just like we are designed to be in relationship.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: And once we are in relationship with an issue or an individual, then Everything, the context changes entirely, right?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: Suddenly you realize, oh my God, that's my nephew who used to babysit my kids who just graduated high school and and he's what he's in jail?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, I have an entirely different experience or idea about who these folks are, right?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't happen until we're in direct relationship because otherwise the fear is strong enough to keep us separate.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is why this is why I persevere in doing this ministry, because I I I feel called to it.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love to do it, and it's not work for me, though I'm paid a salary.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: I still I still do all the other things that a regular minister does.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: I do the weddings, I do the the baby dedications, I do the house blessings, I do the weddings, the preparation of couples to be married, I do all of that also.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh I'm I'm a minister, I'm I'm a minister through and through.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I you know I won't retire or quit.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's just that you still got air in your lungs.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: So two things.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, the training.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: What is it uh if you were to just give us a few bullet points of the most important things to give to volunteers prior to them going in?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: The mindset that's necessary, the character traits that they need to portray in order to be in order to be effective.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I make sure that they understand that most of what they are gonna do involved listening.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: So their listening skills have to be top of the line.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And most importantly, they must never portray themselves as better than an inmate.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're all sinners.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: Granted, some of us are sinners saved by grace, but once we are saved by grace, then we have to administer that grace to those who need to be saved by grace, like we are.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Humility, in other words.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: The ability to the ability to um to handle uh difficult situations and difficult people.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we get frustrated because people are difficult.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well that's that that's part of the course when you're dealing with this kind of ministry.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I teach the the church members that the ministries that are inherent in the church, the ministries that the church does in the community, those ministries can be done for the families of inmates also.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Such as such as family ministries, children's ministries.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: In general, there are there are several things that for example, we sponsor children of inmates to summer camp.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's wonderful.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or we invite children of inmates to our what we call a vacation bible school during the summertime.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: We we we do mentorship programs for youth and we even invite the the the mothers who are left behind to to participate in things like cooking school.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: We teach people in the church how to cook proper meals, how to you know nutrition.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: There there is a there is an acronym that I need you to write down if you want to.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's E W S T A R T.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's that ac new start, yes?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Each of those letters, N for nutrition, E for exercise, W for water, S for sunshine, T for temperance.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Temperance means avoid what is harmful and be moderate with whatever is good.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: A for air, meaning fresh air, R for rest, meaning get enough sleep, and T is for trust in God.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Pastor, I wrote that down.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna pat I'm gonna pass it off as my own.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's brilliant.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's alright.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's out it's out there, and I'm kidding.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is taught by several uh people.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but it originates in in uh in in my church, which I mean my church as a whole.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a curriculum that's out there.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that is you've heard of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, yes?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that your church church that I belong to, yes.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: We we we we're a Bible-believing Christian church.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: We we we live by the Bible and the Bible only.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: We we we avoid all the the philosophies and the the the the worldly uh principles that are being applied in the society which don't work that don't bring people together.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because Jesus taught principles that are very effective in bringing people people together, befriending people, in keeping families together.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Families break down because marriages break down.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, basic things like those is what we teach people.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there are all kinds of marriages these days that people they experiment in and find out that they don't work as they ought to.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because God has put in place a proper framework for marriage.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I still counsel young couples who want to get married, and uh I do it for free, and I I perform their weddings also for free.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so one question on our way out, because we've been talking for an hour and ten minutes.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can you believe that?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Time flies when you're having fun with Pastor Carlton.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: It does, it seems.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, real quick, just uh sort of uh if you had 30 seconds, just 30 seconds with every pastor or volunteer in Ontario going into the prisons, what would you want them to take away from their experience inside?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, firstly, there is a protocol that is in place for every volunteer who goes into an institution to minister to an inmate.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's also a dress code that we have to follow.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: We we ought to know these principles, we ought to dress properly, and when we go in, we ought to be Christ-like to everyone that we meet in there, starting with the reception, with the officers that we encounter who let us in.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um when we get to uh uh a unit with inmates, we ought to be a humble servant so that they can see it in us, they can see Jesus in us.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: Good stuff.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much for your time today.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ever hear the starfish story?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I have.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: All right, well, we'll end on this.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: So and I'm sure that I'm gonna butcher it.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm probably gonna mess it up, but I'm gonna give you the gist.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: So there's an old man and uh and um and a little boy on the beach.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the little boy is is he noticed that the whole beach is covered with starfish.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so he's just like over there and he's just like throwing the starfish in the water, like one at a time, right?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he's just been doing it for like five, 10 minutes, and the guy comes over to him and he said, You're never gonna get you're never gonna be able to get all of these starfish in the water.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the kid picks up one and he tossed it and he said, Well, I made a difference for that one, and that's what we're doing.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: Make a difference for that one because the impact of incarceration or crime on the family is profound, and similarly, the impact of somebody being restored is profound, and we have to work toward the latter.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: We have to.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, why else are we here?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: We have to continue to do that.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Pastor Carlton.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was a pleasure being with you, and uh I hope uh somebody will be blessed from this.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: I know they will.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know they will.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation sparked something for you, or if you want to dive deeper, head over to soulnotskid.com and take a look around.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: Grab a copy of the book, Soul Knot Skin, free resources, or get on the wait list for our next workshop.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you'll pull up a chair next time to hang out with us again.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: We're figuring out this world and ourselves at the same exact time, growing as we listen to the stories of others.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's keep getting to know each other.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: After all, we are in this together.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: See you next time.