Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Bonus: Telling the Truth About Marriage with Young Kids with Majka Burhardt

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Bonus: Telling the Truth About Marriage with Young Kids with Majka Burhardt · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to a bonus episode of parent Data. Today, I'm
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: revisiting an interview I did earlier this year with Micah
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Barnhardt where we talked about her book More. It's about motherhood, marriage,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and why it's harder to be a parent than an
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Ice Climber. The audiobook is just out, so at the
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: top of this episode you'll hear three clips from the
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: book that will put our interview in a little more context. Enjoy.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: September tenth, twenty sixteen, Audio Journal, ten weeks and four
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: days old. Today, my mom called and announced that she's
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: finally decided to find a new therapist. I'm tired of
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: feeling so damn angry, she said. My mom doesn't believe
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: in FaceTime, which is good. I can make approving noises
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: and she doesn't have to know I'm crying. I love her,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and I don't want to wait until I'm seventy one
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: to stop being angry. You know that's saying you and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Peter have. My mom asked, want to train? Is the
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: top thing Peter and I ask each other these days.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: But I'm pretty sure that is not what my mom meant.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Your sister stitched it on the quilt square she added
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: to the stole we all made for your wedding, she said,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I think of it all the time. From judgment to Love,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I cried more. Maybe Mom at seventy one and me
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: at thirty nine are more alike than I ever want
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: to admit. From judgment to love, From judgment to love.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: As I go about my day, I repeat it like
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: a mental string of rosary beads. It doesn't work. Being
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the daughter of two laps Catholics is not in my favor.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: All I feel is judgment and anger. They are becoming
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: my default. I feel them when he leaves the toilet
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: set up and I collapse on the skinny rim of
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: the bowl because I still can't control my abdominals to
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: squat that low. When he tells me how tired he
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: is while scrolling through his phone or computer, and while
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I nurse two humans, when he says he doesn't feel
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: he can be with both kids alone after he comes
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: home from work, and it's what I've been doing all day.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: But he cooks my eggs to runny, and when I
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: have to depend on him to cook them in the
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: first place, breathe, Micah. Control your own reactions start there.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: From judgment to love. I don't want to feel like
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: shit and be angry at Peter. I have to give
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: him my best. I am scared that he won't show
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: up and give me the same. And if he doesn't,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: if he never steps up, or if he does and
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I don't see it or it's not enough, or if
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: I can never stop being angry, then what And I'm
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: desperately scared that Peter won't step up and it will
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: be like it was with my first husband, Eddie. I
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: chose against that first marriage. I don't want to choose
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: against this one. February eighth, twenty sixteen, letter and three
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: days pregnant, deer Toots and Magoots. Those are not your names.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Don't worry. I promise we will have better ones picked
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: out by the time you make your debut in June,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: because even though you were due July ninth, no one
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: is going to let us get past June thirtieth. Last
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: week I found out you're a boy and girl, and
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: it seemed like the right time to write your first letter. Yes,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: it's one letter for both of you. You might as
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: well get used to sharing from the start. I have
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: not been eagerly waiting to be a mother I'm thirty nine,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: and I've been focused on doing everything else instead. Last
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: year had me ringing in the new year on top
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: of Patagonias, Fitzroy, leading a thirty eight person symposium about
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: how to disrupt traditional conservation work, spending two months working
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: three back to back stints in Ethiopia and Mozambique, climbing
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the most difficult ice of my life at home in
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: New Hampshire, writing a proposal for my third book, taking
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: five weeks to climb perfect alpine granite and Shamany with
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: your Dad, and finishing a film that has been four
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: years in the making. I've been busy. I like being busy. Theoretically,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: it's been possible for me to become a mom for decades.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: That's a long time to choose to pursue things that
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: are not what most people dub the greatest role you
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: can have in life. For me, I've been on the
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: fence about becoming a parent, not because of you, because
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: of me. For most of my career, people have told
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: me that if I were to have children that I
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: would have to change my life, stop traveling, tone down
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: my climbing, and basically give up my ability to create
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: and expand Each time someone told me any of that,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I wanted to punch them. But I have it, and
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: neither should you. Ever. Instead, I've chosen to stand taller
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and stronger against such limiting beliefs or I did in theory,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: and now it's time for reality. In fact, the only
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: way your dad and I could get to the place
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: of trying to have a baby was to tell ourselves
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: it was possible for us to become parents and not
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: lose ourselves in the process. Then again, that's likely what
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: every parent tells himself before they step off the high dive.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: But you are not a baby, and I'm the first
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: one laughing about the irony of it all. You are
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: entering a bold and beautiful world. I have spent my
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: time in it hurdling my beliefs, passions, and curiosity up
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: against each other, and in fact have made this my career.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: It has not always worked. Sometimes I ache for a
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: more normal trajectory, but when it does work, it catches
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: my breath and grounds my soul in a way that
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: makes me know I belong in the universe. You too,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: are not the normal way. When I reflect on the
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: most important, striking heart in stomach, things I've ever done.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: They have always been the result of doing what people
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: would call too much. I general contracted my dream house
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: at age twenty two. I put up first ascents on
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: sandstone towers in Ethiopia as my first climbs back from
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: shoulder surgery, and I kept driving in a nor'easter that
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: shut down the Eastern Seaboard, making it to North Conway
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: on a bet to myself that it would matter and
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: end up falling in love with your dad. As you
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: grow inside me, I know you will be the pinnacle
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: of what I have done and will do. I know
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: you're like your mama because already in utero I can
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: tell your team twin motto is more. You make me
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: pee eight times a night, eat double the amount of
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: pork I'd ever thought previously possible, and cry with something
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: I can only know as the biggest love I've ever felt.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: And all of that we fit right in together. I'm
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: not saying I have this figured out. You can't get
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: to be my age and see your sister, cousins, strangers,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: and friends go through parenthood and think anyone ever has
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: it figured out. While we may never figured out entirely,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: somehow we're going to this bold and beautiful world together.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I can't wait to see what more looks like with you.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: August twenty seventh, twenty sixteen, Audio Journal, eight weeks and
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: four days old. No one told me not to bring
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: a stroller to boot group. No one told me either
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: that you were supposed to cover your boobs at boot group.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: But it's impossible to nurse the two of you covered,
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: and it's also the last thing I want to learn
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: how to do. It's also impossible to extract a double
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: stroller from the back of a small room. Once fifteen
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: nursing mothers, their infants, and other miscellaneous toddlers have filled
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: it up. We are like a small semi truck everywhere
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: we go, or a double wide or and shoes. Before
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I am done, we have to talk about the shoes.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I had a box of fourteen pairs of hand me
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: down shoes for infants, which I've already given away. Who
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: in the world put shoes on babies? The women at
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: boob Group, each and every one of them. May thirteenth,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty From the notepad. Three years and ten months old, Mama,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: how much older until I die? Kaz asks I reach
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: for his foot behind me in the car so many years.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I say, until I die, I have a lot of
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: growing to do. Write Mama, right, Kaz, I say, let's
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: focus on the living.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I am so delighted to welcome Michael Barheart. Thank you
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: so much for joining me.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: It's awesome to be here, Emily.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: So we're here to talk about your book more.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: And I have to say I was very skeptical when
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: you reached out because I expected this to be a
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: book about rock climbing, which is antivity that I think
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: is very scary, and as a result, I thought that
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: I would just be too scared and not be able
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: to relate. But actually the book is almost uncomfortably relatable.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Alex, who works with me, and I were talking about how.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: We both you really couldn't put it, couldn't put it down,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: even at moments when we thought, oh, I kind of ah,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling this a little too much because it's not
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: really a book about climbing so much. It's really about
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: parenting and partnering when your parent and that conflict and
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: all all that stuff, and so we're going to get
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: into that, and that's really where I want to focus.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: I think it's so relatable to so many parents. But
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: first I want to ask you this sort of basic
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: book question, which is, you know, can you tell us
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: in your own words, what is this book, why did
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: you write it?
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: And what do you hope people will get out of it?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I love hearing that that it was like kind
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: of itchy and close to you, because I mean, really,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: for me, this book was how I survived being pregnant
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: and then being a mom to young twins. And I
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: didn't set out to write this book. I wrote this
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: book like the way a teenager turns to their journal
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: to try to like understand what the heck is going
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: on in their life. And that's really what this book
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: was for me as a you know, when I was
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: becoming a mom, and then in my early years of
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: being a mom, and my kids are still really little.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: They're six and a half right now, so I'm still
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: at the very beginning of this journey. But I felt
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: like I had this fiery ball of unknown and anks
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: I needed a place to put it, and so I
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: put it in writing, and eventually I looked at it
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: and said, oh, I think, actually, what if I stitched
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: that together? What if this was something I was willing
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: to share with other people? What they relate is this
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: a similar experience? Because I really felt like I wanted
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: to have like those were the conversations I was dying
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to have with anybody I met on the street. Like,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: you know, I'd see some random mom and I'd be like, no,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: flipping way is it this hard? I had no idea, Right,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: It's like, who knew that all this stuff was gonna
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: cascade and feel like this? And how do I find
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: my way to being a dialogue about it? So in
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: some ways the book was really selfishly that's what it
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: was for me. But it's you know, it's the story
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: of me balancing becoming a mom, thinking that I could
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: have sort of one kid and just mesh them into
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: my lives and instead having two at one time and
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: having the universe say guess who's in charge, trying to
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: do it with a really dynamic career between being a
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: professional climber and also growing a major international nonprofit and
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: trying not to take my marriage. Yeah, and so far,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: so far, so good.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: You're still married, you still have two children, you still
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: have a job, so check check yeah, check check check check.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: All right, it's all We're We're all great.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no problem is super easy.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: So what's interesting about the book is it's written entirely
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: in these form of sort of audio journals and journal
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: entries that you wrote I presumed, unless you're a very
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: good faker, that you wrote at the time.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, at the time. And I was curious because
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: it's it makes.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: The reading of it so very raw in a way
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: that I think it wouldn't be if you had written
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: this in a more traditional book form where you looked
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: back at those and use those as material, but then
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: you surface them through the experience that you have several
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: years later.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Why did you do it?
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Like I did you ever consider the more traditional like
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I'll use this this source material and then write a
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: more regular memoiry kind of book.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: No, I never considered that because I was just really
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: fascinated with the integrity of Like I remember playing myself
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: back these audio recordings when I thought like, maybe i'll
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: type these out, see what it's about, And I'm like,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: that has to something has to happen with these, Like
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: maybe it's just that my children are going to listen
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: to them one day. It's like this first person account,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: and why do we need to change it? Why should
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Because I think when we do retrospectives, everything gets a
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: little bit blurred and it gets a little it's all
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: like very lovely, and we kind of round the edges
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: a little bit. It's like, well, I probably wasn't that mad,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: and it probably was like generally okay, and now I
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: have wisdom because I've had better sleep and all these things.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: But when you're in the middle of it, when you're
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: just in the hot mess of it, like if that's
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: where you're trying to speak to and that's the thing
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: that I would have loved to have the like as
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: I said, those are the conversations I would to have.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Like to me, it was more important to sit right
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: there on the hot mess of it.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is. It is hot mess.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, when you look back on this period and
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the stuff you wrote about, is there one sort of
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: entry or moment in the book where you would say
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: this was not the low but like encapsulates the hot
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: and hot messiness.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Of this experience. It's a good question. Wow. I think
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: that things got really really tricky for me when my
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: kids reached about two two and a half and suddenly
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: they're trying to you know, they're having all these big
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: emotions and words and you know, I all of a
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: sudden realized that when I was at that age, my
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: parents were splitting up, and I would like, I couldn't
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: sit in the moment as a mom and try to,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: you know, tell my kids how to be angry and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: help them understand that anger was an okay thing without
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: realizing that I never had that skill set given to
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: me when my family was blowing apart, and at the
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: same time, I was dealing with a ton of anger
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: and resentment towards my husband, which I knew wasn't entirely
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: healthy or entirely appropriately directed, but I just couldn't figure
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: out what to do about it. And I think, like
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: being at like like the ven Diagram of hell, that
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: that was was really really hard for me, right, Like
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: we always think about like this ven diagrams, like oh
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: all these things are related. It's like no, no, Like
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: it was too much, and I was like, how do
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: I do this? And how do I do it while
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: trying to be like a really patient, lovely mom who
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: can say, yes, I've got you, I'm here for all
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: of your emotions, and like find a way to talk
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: to my husband and say I feel like this and
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I know it's not it's not entirely okay, but something
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: about this is wrong and we need to fix it.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: And holy god, how do I under reparent myself? Like
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: what are the tools that I have so that I
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: can show up as a different parent to my kiddos?
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so much in them.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: One thing that's so hard about that is this realization
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: that oh, I, like I need to parent differently than
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: I was parented and I don't have those resources.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: Comes in the moment that you need it, you know.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: It's not that.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: I'm a year out before I have a child and
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I think, okay, let me fix all of my issues
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: so I don't pass them to my kid.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: It's the moment where you think, oh my goodness, I'm
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: a pass in.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I'm pass in it right now and there's no time
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: to figure and I.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Had no idea. I thought of it so much more
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: intellectually before. It's like, oh yeah, like you know, I
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: see that my parents did this, and here's why I
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: want to carry on Like like like you get a
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: choice in the matter, right, But it is not you
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: are just like like the I don't know, like the
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: giant bowling ball is coming out and you can't get
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: out of the way, and you're just like, Okay, here
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: we go. How I'm going to do this? And you know,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: how do I keep You know, it's kind of like
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the repair concept, like how do I try? How do
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I biff? How do I go back to my kids
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: the people around me and say, yeah, I'm trying. I'm learning.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to do something that I don't have the
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: muscle memory for. So I'm trying to create muscle memory
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: and emotional memory my kiddos while I'm doing it for myself.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I want to ask about the spousal stuff because that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: is something that you know, that's a big piece of
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: this book, and it's it's one I was interesting because
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: if you look at the data the first year, first
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: few years of having kids, it's typically the low point
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: in the data for people's marriages. You sometimes they say,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: like it does rek covering the data by the time
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: you have grandchildren, so that's you know, something to look
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: forward to.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: It it's not like it's like three years apart. Okay,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: that's hysterical.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: And I remember this from my own sort of for
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: my own marriages, like that year being the most conflict
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that that we had, more so than the pandemic, or
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the arrival of the second child, or when we had
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: to move across the country, like all of these other disruptions,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I felt like were we were much more on on
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: a team about and the beginning of parenting had in
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: some ways less like weirdly less of a team feel
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: because I was so there was so much on sertain.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what exactly what is, but I think
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: it resonates with with.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: A lot of people.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: But the thing is that when I look back on that,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I can say, well, you know, that was really hard,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: but I don't remember all the details, like I remember
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: one particular incident involving the rock and play sleeper and napping,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: But other than that, it is this rounded edges, you know,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: and and I don't relive it with frequency, and of
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: course writing it in this way you do relive it
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: with frequency. So I was first wondering, you know, how
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: did that go? Like how hard was it to have
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: him read that?
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Man? It was super hard to be honest right, like
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: it is you know, this was not something that was
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: really fun to share, to be like, hey, here are
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: my inner workings. But it also seemed to me really
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: important to say if we're really in this to win it.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: If we're really this team in the long run, then
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: if you don't know that this is where I was
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: at during this point, are we really being transparent right, like,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: and not to try to push us to a cliff,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: but to just be like, this is how hard it was,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: and this is how scared I was. You know, Peter
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: knew I was working on the book after a certain point,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't for years because I didn't know I
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: was working on a book. It was really not until
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: like the kids were like three and a half that
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I think this is actually going
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: to be a book, right, And then I like spent
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: the next year like writing and putting it together and
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: then sending it. Than it was like, well, I guess
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: it is a book. And I think that for me,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: it was more important to show up who I am
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: to my spouse than it was to mute that and
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: to like take the risk. And it's been hard. I
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: mean it's been bumpy. Like I am married to someone
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: who's very private, right, and like that is not his dream.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: It's like, Yay, let's write a book about the hardest
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: part of our lives, and let's not even do it
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: in retrospective with like some nice blurring and some great
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: morals of every It's just like, let's be in the
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: shit of it and really show people what that felt like.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: But to me, I'm like, yeah, but what about the
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: gift that we can give other people to be like
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not alone? Right? Because it feels so terrifyingly alone.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing I remember at one point thinking, well,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: of course that's why all these marriages blow apart when
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: that people have little kids, or where you like lay
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: the tracks for just so much intense resentment and nature
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that you can't pull yourself out of it because you've
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: like got and it's like, we have to have a
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: better way to do this, and I think to have
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: a better way to do this. It's an intersection of
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: all the pieces, right, It's the Marshall Plan for moms.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: It's like having different conversations about how we're reparenting. It's
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: looking at the data and saying, why are we being
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: led astray with all of these like wives tales versus
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: like what's really happening? And it's also saying it's this
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: hard when it's heart, it's this heart. It can't just
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: be fixed by saying, well, just buck up and one
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: day you'll get sleep and by the time you have grandkids,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: you'll probably be okay with each other.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Like that's bullshit, right, I'm just reporting the data.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying you're bullshit, but I'm just saying, like,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: if we can't solve, we're not being able to solve
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: for this and take care of people and love them
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: and nurture them on this journey unless we're willing to
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: say that, Like sometimes it feels that heart. So I'm like,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: all right, I'll fall on the sword. I'll be the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: person being like it can feel this heart, and I
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: can do it in a public way.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things that's so interesting about
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: the way that you write this and the journey we
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: get on here is that there's a lot of discussion
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of breastfeeding. So then there's a lot discussion of your
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: your experience with breastfeeding and your you know, and and
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: how much how much you liked it, and in some
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: sense or I don't know, maybe that's the other right
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: way to put it, but that's sort of how I
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: read it, that it was complicated, But ultimately I.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Think it's really important to me. Yeah.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that I think brings up one of the
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: reasons that some of these you very deep inequities exist,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: which is that that is something that only you could do,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: and there's this tension of you know, well, I want
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: the things. You feel this in the book, and I
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: think a lot of us feel in the world like
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: I want this to be exactly equal, except I also
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: want this other thing which only I can do, and
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: somehow I don't know I wanted. I just want it
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: to be different. I want there to be a way
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: for all of those things to happen. And as even
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: as far as we could move to make things better,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: that will always be in the way. And versions of that,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the childbirth part, the breastfeeding part, some of those things
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: will always be in the way.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like there's almost this desire to have a
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: commence insert commitment from the other person to be like, yes,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I can't do this, but I will. I will shoulder
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: extra of these other things because you're shouldering these pieces.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: And it's like for me, I always get obsessed, and
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I mean it's in the book. It's like I try
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: to do the math on things. I'm like, why is
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: this not equal, like what's feeling wrong? How do I
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: solve this? And it's like you can't really apply math
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: to ething because there is that there are these personal choices, right,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: but you know, definitely my mom's generation, it was not
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: even an option if you were going to be like
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: a crusher career mother, like you could not say and
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: I'm also going to try to pick up my kids
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: sometimes at three o'clock. No way could you ever do that, right?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: You just had to like fully beyond that other track.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: And I think now there's this question of what if
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I can try to have this career and I can
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: try to be really present as a parent. And I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: think then then kind of the corollary to what you
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: were saying, Emily, is is your spouse also trying to
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: do all that or are they not? And if they aren't,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: which could be their prerogative and could be the way
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: your agreement is, are you always going to feel like
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: there's an imbalance? Right? And it's kind of like carrying
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the breastfeeding thing or that, you know, like being the
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: birthing parent forward and being like I'm owning this, but
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I want to own this because this is what makes
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: my family work and I wish you were owning something
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: similarly big.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what's so hard about that is
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: that it ventures into the territory of it's not just
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: that I want you to do the dishes. I want
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: you to love doing the dishes, you know, Like it's
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: not just that I want you to do the thing.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I want you to feel like you want to do
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the thing, And that sometimes it feels like all we
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: should be able to ask, like it should be good
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: enough that the dishes are done, and that goes in
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: that goes in both directions. But I think it happens
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: when we care, When we care about something and we
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: have a set of preferences that we almost want the
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: partner to have the same set of preferences, And there
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: can sometimes be free freedom in saying, you know, this
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: is my this is my set of preferences, and I
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: like you. Actually, I have a much higher taste for
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: random times with my kid, you know, picking them up
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and walking to the Kendnience store at three o'clock in
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: the afternoon, and I organize aspects of my professional life
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: around that in a way that my husband does not,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: and not because he doesn't like the kids or because
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: he doesn't care about equity, but because that isn't important
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: to him. And I'm always struggling a little bit with
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: you know, to the extent that we do on equal
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: amounts of parenting, which we do to you know, how
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: much of that is because that's really what I want?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: And how much of that is an underlying inequity And
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: if it's just because it's what I want, how should I.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Feel about that? I don't think there's an easy answer
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: in any of that.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, So there's this piece that I really want to write,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: and I want to write, like this article about the
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: last thing that I'm going to this is gonna be
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: very like man woman conversation right now, right, but like,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: the last thing I think husbands should ever ask their
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: wives is what they want? Because I hate that question, right,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't want It's not that simple.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: A Marshall plan for moms complete equality, you know, yeah.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and like and in this moment, what I actually
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: want is to is for you to just know what
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: has to happen, because the icing on the cake is
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: to divide the actual task.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: It relates closely to some of this this idea that
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I talk about sometimes around called total responsibility transfer is
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: related to the mental load. You know, you get into
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: these places where it's the version of you know, what
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: do you want is sort of like tell me exactly
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: what to.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Do and then I will implement it.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: When a huge amount of the work is thinking about
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: what needs to get done, and so there's space there
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: for doing a better job, probably for all of us.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: In saying you're responsible for this thing. You know that
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: we're going to divide the tasks in a way, not
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that I'm responsible for everything and I allocate them like
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: you're my employee, but like we're the you know.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: The co CEOs or whatever exactly.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: It's like this is totally your genre and I don't
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: have anything to think about in that. And I think
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: that's what it comes down to, because it is it
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: is that mental labor right to actually carry that and
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: to have it all and that's why you get to
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: this point where's like I'll just do it right, And
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I mean it can be in the flip side of it,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: like you know, we've had these like puking snowstores up
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: in northern New Hampshire right now, and my husband is
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: the person who deals with the snowblower that has been
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: broken for three times. If he gets it back, he
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: tries it, you know, and it's like I'm just like,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not on the snowblower team. That's that's like entirely
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: your team. I'm excited about that being your mental mode,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: you know, but it's you know, like I'm not stepping
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: in there to do that one. Yeah.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: No, And we have we have the car.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: We have something about you know, anything that's about electronics
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: or cars or anything where I think he wants me
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: to care.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: He wants me to care, you know, like.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Which if we need a new car, which trim should
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: it have? And I'm like, please don't ask me, like
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I don't care.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: But see that's you being like just tell me what
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: you want.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: No, I think he wants me to have an opinion.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I think he really genuinely wants me to like engage
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: with this question because he thinks I don't know with
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: it it's important or there's something. I mean, we're off topic,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: but like there's something about this particular aspect of the
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: car that he that is that is like a parallel
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: to so many other things.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: And I can see now how he feels because I'm
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: just like.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: This is the third email, I don't care, don't ask.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: Again, doesn't matter at all to me.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: But I think there's it's about like a shared experience, right,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Like when you are carrying the load of whatever it is,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: you're like, it's it's this odd thing. Like before we
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: had kids, I felt like nobody knew me better than
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: my husband. Nobody knew everything that was happening with my
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: like with my job, like the ins and outs, and
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden we lost that because we didn't
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: have time to talk about any of that stuff. And
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: so there are these ways that you kind of like,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: you know, put a shot off the bow to be
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: like I need to think about like, you know, the
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: socks that don't seem to fit my children's feet for
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: any worse, and like I can't seem to keep these
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: things on and I'm actually putting mental bandwidthin it. And
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: he's kind of like, why are we even talking? I
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: don't want to talk about that. I'm like, okay, fine, right,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: But it's it's like you're trying to find these points
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: to bring each other in. And I think that I
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: think the reality of having young kids is that you
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: just missfire with your partner the time, and you can't
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: see the misfires and you're too tired and you're too
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: caught up in whatever the hell you're going through emotionally
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: that you're not seeing that your partner's going through that too,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: and you can't help catch them. And I think that is,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the reasons that it's so darn hard.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And I think that does get better,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: and partly because for the most part, you get slightly
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: less tired and you have slightly more time, and you
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: wake up one morning and you realize, oh, we could
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: have a cup of coffee together and we could talk
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: about something other than missing socks. And I think that's
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: when the moments when that happens and you and you
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: find that you do still like your partner are actually
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: quite special.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: The sort of realization of like, oh, I'm really enjoying
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: doing this and I wish we could do more of it,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: but actually.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I'm enjoying because I like you and like that itself
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: is a.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Really nice That's a nice realization.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah it is. It's also I mean, I can do
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: this now with hindsight. The irony is that I have
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: no doubt Peter was right there trying his best the
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: whole time. That's not a question, right, And that's the
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: irony of this, that you could be trying your best.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: But again it's like that misfire piece. So it's not
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: only you find these moments and you say, oh, man,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I really like you, but also yeah, I haven't. I
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: haven't been seeing you and you have been seeing me.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: And but yet that's kind of how we based our
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: whole relationship before having kids, was that we were the
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: people who saw and got each other. What a wild
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: thing to then be tossed into being parents, sharing the
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: most intimate experience you could ever share, but not sharing it.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: That doesn't make sense. But that's actually, to me a
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: summary of early parenting. No, that's so that is.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Like, that's such a perfect that's such a perfect summary.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: So I had one other, more specific question.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: I was just curious, probably because you have a sort
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: of shared experience, you talk a lot about the iniquities
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: or the feelings of inequities when sort of Peter goes
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: back to work climbing and you sort of do it
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: as a lesser thing, lesser but like in a less
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: intense way, at least initially how much do you think
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: that inequity.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Was so visible because you have the same job.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hugely, right, because I mean I look at people. Okay,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: I went. I was in Kenya this past November and
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: I met this team member who I've been working with
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: for Zoom for three years, and I was like, holy cow,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: she's so much taller that I had no idea and
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: she's and she's like, wow, you are so much shorter
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: than I thought you were.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Right, like we do, our.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Brains do this thing that we were like, oh, I
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: know who this person is, and you map yourself onto
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: other people without us knowing it, right, So I think
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: in this way, well, intellectually I know that we are
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: completely different. I think that I always equivocate us, and
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: it was much easier. It's like, well, we're the same,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: We're just kind of these different versions of each other.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, it's like, whoa, we
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: are not different versions of each other. He did not
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: gain seventy pounds care like twins and then have to have,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: you know, an induction and forty two hours of labor
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: n a C section and you know it's like no,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: there's just no way. And that that was hard for me,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: And I do think you're right that it like having
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: that mirror that was never a mirror but is really
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: not a mirror there. It just felt like it was
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: more in my face than it would have been if
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: he had a different passion, if he had a different career,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And it also and it manifested in these different ways
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: because you also see desire, right, Like, That's something I've
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: had to really have a reckoning with, is that our
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: our appetite for what we want to do as climbers
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: is different now, and it's it's always been a little
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: bit different, but it's much more different from each other
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: now with our kids than it was before we had kids.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I totally resonate with that. I
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: think this idea of sort of we're doing the same thing,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, the kind of foray
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: into parenting made us, I think for Jesse and I
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: too sort of maybe realize, oh, like we're not you know,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: we're not really doing the same thing. And now we're
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: like really not doing the same thing. But you know,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: for a long time we were sort of I felt
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: like I was doing kind of the same thing in
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: a more interested not as good way, which was you know,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: more tired way.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Let's say, yeah.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: But again, it's all these things are probably like these
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: dials in our in our psyche that are that when
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: you when you lay them out like this, you're like, wow,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: those are really not functional. Like humans should do a
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: better job, right, We shouldn't just see that we're the
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: same as our partner because it's going to kick you
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and it's going to bite you in the ass. Right,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: But but yet we do it and then all of
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: a sudden, I think it adds to the different tension points,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: where as if you had some like more zen wae
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: understanding from the very beginning, like they are a unique individual.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: We sometimes cross over in these patterns, but we will
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: always pursue it differently, like it'd probably be healthier. But
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I just I didn't start from that point.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: No, I know the getting must start there. Okay, So
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: my last question for you is have the kids read
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the book?
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: And do you or do you think?
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: I guess they're only six and a half so maybe
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: not yet, but but do you do you think that
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: you will have them read it?
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah? They know about the book, which is really fun,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: and they I've read them little excerts of them, or
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I've told them funny stories that I've recounted in it.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: They're too little to really understand the book, and because
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: it's so intense, I want to be careful about when it's.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: Time for them to read the book.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: The whole point of this book, it's a book to them, right,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: So I remember early on someone be like, you can't
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: write this your kids, you're going to read it. I'm like,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: that's the whole point. That's something. It's like, I want
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: them to read it when it's because in my my family,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: the family that I am like trying to lead with
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: these two little humans, it's like, let's talk about it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about this thing that's hard. It's like the
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: doctor Becky thing, right, It's like, let's go sit on
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: the bench together through the hard so that you know
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: that I can be there with you and we can
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: get to the other side together. So absolutely, when it's time,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: like this book is theirs, I.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Think the greatest gift in sometimes to your kids that
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: they will be able to read this when they are
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: going through this themselves someday. And that's a pretty I
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: would have really liked that version of that from my Mom.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all I wanted, Like I just like desperately
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: wanted this like portal in time to go back and
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: be like, oh my gosh, you went through all of this,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: how did that? Oh my with that created me? That's
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: why I think that it's just like my brain would
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: explode in thinking about it, right and even to this day,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: because whenever I would ask my mom about her experience
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: when you know she was at this point with her
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: young child, she'd be like, well, and kind of remember
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: this there. I remember this jump a jump thing that
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: you seem to really like. And I'm like, really, that's all.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: There is so much more than a jump out, Like
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: you can only get four minutes out of a jump
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: of jump at this age, like you've got to tell
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: me what else was happening. But for her, it's like
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: so far in the rear of your mirror. She's like, yeah,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: there's a jump of jump and I don't know, we
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: just kind of got through it. And I'm like, it's like,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: how did you go to work the way you did
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and put on your nylons and put on your suit
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: and put on your heels and like deal with the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: fact that I was puking my brains at at some
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: point in the middle of the night, because you had
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: to be there with me when I was two, two
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: years old and projectile vomiting, because I'm sure I did it,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: but somehow, like you got out the door by seven
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: three in the morning, How the heck did you do that?
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I also, yeah, I do wonder. I vomited a lot
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: as a kid, like, well, you know, how did you
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: get up and like go teach like teach.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Classes after How did that happen?
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, and we'll never know, but your kids,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: your kids won't know, and my kids won't know. There,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: my kids will just like I'm just gonna be like, oh, yeah,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: one time you vomited up.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: For some mushrooms. But anyway, it was pretty good. We're
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: just thinking me to name more.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Mushrooms after that. So that's that's all.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: So the book is called More. It's absolutely amazing. It
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: will be linked in the notes to this And I
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: just tremendously appreciate you being here.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It's such an honor. I've been such a fan of
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: your work. And when you wrote me back on email,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I did a little dance and I was really stoked.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: So thank you for making that happen. Verly, I'm come.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Mount take your time and seeing it's all right.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I must.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Parent Data is produced by tamorro Avishai with support from
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the parent Data team and p I Rex. If you
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: have thoughts on this episode, please join the conversation on
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: my Instagram at Prof Emily Ostar, and if you want
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• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Write Penelope, write Mam. We'll see you next time.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Keep