Latest / Learn Literacy Podcast / 13. Peggy Price - OG as Research
Transcript
- Cheryl Urbanczyk: everyone and welcome to the Learn Literacy podcast. This is the place where we talk about language for life by teaching literacy through language and structure. I'm really excited today for this practitioner profile and I'm here today with fellow fellow Peggy Price from Vermont. So welcome Peggy. Thank you for being here. Peggy Price: Thank you for having me. It's an honor to speak with you today, Cheryl. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I know we're both very excited about OG ⁓ when I started going to OG conferences, you were always there and you were someone I looked up to. So it's exciting to meet you and learn more about you. ⁓ So don't you share about your OG journey, how you learned about OG, ⁓ what your ⁓ pathway was like, where you are now, that kind of thing. Peggy Price: I'd love to. And I would also say, Cheryl, I'm a fellow admirer of your work as well. I'm so grateful for the community that the Orton-Gillingham Academy, or OGA, brings. So I first learned about Orton-Gillingham towards the end of my master's degree in special education. And I had an amazing professor was ⁓ to the university at the time, Dr. Nicole Patentary. It was ⁓ class where one of our texts was Speech to Print by Louisa Motes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: You Peggy Price: The class started with the pre-test from that book. And here I was the straight A student. I had a background in ABA. had started, like I took my GREs my sophomore year. Like I'm this go-getter, and I'm going to be this great kindergarten teacher. And I took this pre-test, and did not know any of the sounds in the English language. I remember at one point thinking, I think I heard something once about long or short vowels, but I don't even know what that means. that class changed my life, changed the trajectory of my career, and ⁓ introduced me to this term or in Gillingham. ⁓ I learned conversations that this is really the gold standard for reading instruction. I'm very fortunate that where I did my student teaching, they took a chance on me and hired me as a kindergarten special education teacher. And as soon as I could, my second year, I took my first Orrin Gillingham course, ⁓ was really geared towards classroom teachers, which fit my needs at the time. But I learned about this OGA and that there would be a certification process where someone would really observe me, teach, and give me feedback. So if it's OK, I want to go back to a moment to my younger self. And I mentioned this background. And ⁓ mentioned ABA, Applied Behavior Analysis. I knew from a really young age I wanted to work with kids and I always had a deep passion for research and science. I've always, even in high school, like this big research nerd and I even once had a teacher who was a developmental psychologist that really had a sibling at the school and like it's a favorite of the school taught us AP psych and she invited me to her research lab. just the idea that we can use the scientific method to help children and families just was so fascinating and humbling to me. So I started ⁓ an early age in college working in research labs and one was a lab school for children with autism where you could get this concentration and applied behavior analysis. ⁓ there was constant observation, supervision, feedback ⁓ how you spoke to the child, how you phrase certain things, how you took data on the response. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Peggy Price: And I just saw that as a natural and normal process that was necessary if you were working with children, particularly those with significant needs. And to be honest, was pretty disappointed that, well, I probably first disappointed my parents that at the last minute I said, I'm going to get this degree in education and I'm not going to go for this doctorate in clinical psychology that I told you since 18. That was my plan. ⁓ always very supportive ⁓ I was so excited to learn so much more. And a lot of the classes I took were not as rigorous like the one with Dr. Nicole Patentary. There was a lot of assignments where we were just expected to write how we feel. And I remember often thinking, why does it matter how I feel? Shouldn't it matter the data, the outcome that we're getting from the student? Isn't that my job as a teacher? So when I learned that there was something like the OGA where someone would observe me and again give me this detailed level of feedback like I received in my college days, I knew this is what I wanted because this is what I needed to do to grow. I really wanted to, there's no worse feeling than as a teacher, you go into this field because you want to do right by kids. We don't go to this field for glory. We don't go for the paycheck. We go because we really care about helping children. And I hear from, I'll tell you a little bit where I am now, training teachers. I hear from teachers every day that say the same thing that I felt is, I want to have the tools to help this child who's struggling, to make this child feel like a reader because they are a reader and knowing the power that does for a child's self-esteem. for the trajectory of that person's life and how it changes the whole family system too. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that's so true. ⁓ funny that you mentioned Louisa Moats's book because one of my first, ⁓ before took OG, I took a course that used that book Speech to Print and I didn't understand a thing about it. I read each chapter multiple times. ⁓ was it's like I was reading a different language or something like that. So it's amazing. And then I think going back and probably reading it now would makes a lot more sense. Peggy Price: I had such a similar experience because that book is on the Certify reading list. So I did my associate level training at the time I was living in Atlanta. So I mentioned that I really love research. So just to hit that point home, I also worked in a marriage research lab for three years where I did my honors thesis. I married a assistant I met there who is also a researcher. ⁓ So met another research ⁓ lover, research nerd. So ⁓ his career Cheryl Urbanczyk: that. ⁓ wow. Peggy Price: academia has brought me to different states ⁓ locations. So ⁓ loved in Atlanta and teaching at this amazing ⁓ public in DeKalb County that focused on early childhood inclusion. the ⁓ school not have been more supportive of me. They really encouraged me to learn about OG, bring it back to the school. The school was already implementing systematic phonics. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Peggy Price: And I think this is kind of one of my takeaways too is while we had a solid systematic phonics program at the school, it was universally accepted that programs are not perfect and that they will need more modifications based on teacher expertise. We really looked at the school SLPs or speech language pathologists as experts to help advise us. I feel really lucky like my background in just research methodology. ⁓ And really Nicole, Pat and Terry's course in a way inoculated me from graduate coursework that I had that promoted more of a whole language, look at the first picture and guess approach. So in that way, OG was just like this natural addition to what we were already doing at the school. And then so to complete my associate level training in Atlanta and life brought me to Charleston and brought me to Sheila Castello. who's a past OGA president. I still, I've had, I just really feel like over and over again, I won this lottery ticket as a teacher, as a professional, because I was put in schools and with other teachers and mentors with so much expertise, but also patience to take on this new person who didn't have a lot of knowledge, but I always had a lot of curiosity and humility. a lifelong learner. I don't know if you can be humble and say you're humble, so that might be an oxymoron. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: I think we both know the more you learn, it opens doors to more questions and more learning. And I think that's where it comes in because we just always, there's never an end point. yeah. So I have a question. It's maybe a little off script, but I just am wondering how you tie in like your research experience and your research mind to like that diagnostic prescriptive pieces of OG because there aren't too many models of, ⁓ let's teacher research, and I kind of see that diagnostic prescriptive as being your own kind of little researcher. But I think sometimes people have a hard time understanding those terms or exactly what it looks like because it's just such a different way of thinking. Peggy Price: Yeah, it's an excellent question. I worked in these two research labs. And one, ⁓ were doing group-wise statistics, which means you're collecting statistics from a larger sample and analyzing them. But at lab school, ⁓ the was on single-subject design. And that very much at the heart of what we do in OG. ⁓ And I'll give a case from ABA is maybe a child is engaging in a ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's right. Yeah. Peggy Price: a self-harming behavior like headbanging or hurting themselves. And we have a base rate data of this is what this is, and we implement an intervention. see, OK, now that behavior is decreasing. We see that it's working. And similarly, that is a similar approach that we take in OG. We get baseline data from a broad informal diagnostic assessment. And a lot of my role, I'll talk a little bit more about my role at the Stern Center for Language and Learning in Vermont is we've created a lot of really excellent informal assessments to complement what else is available. And there's one test we've recently revised. I'd love to share a little bit more about a pseudo word test that we've recently revised that scores for automaticity, not just word level reading accuracy. ⁓ we develop a plan based on that initial informal assessment. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes, definitely. Right. Peggy Price: And in my role training teachers at the Stern Center, actually, my staff and I, whoever is directly mentoring that specific teacher, actually we call something a starting points report. We've learned the hard way that it's not really fair to expect a brand new teacher to give those tests and then really fully milk ⁓ analysis. Exactly. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I don't think the skill set is there yet to be like, okay, data, what do I do? ⁓ you're as well. Yeah. ⁓ Peggy Price: Exactly. So we really go through that. We review all that data. Sometimes we're giving more feedback like, ⁓ this test wasn't actually given correctly. Let me explain why. Go back and do it again, because the data is invalid in that case. And then just a couple pages bulleted notes, this is where your first few OG lessons will start. But this is just the starting point. Then new data is coming in, and we are continuing to refine. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. video. Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: And the other reason that don't know if ⁓ this seem like a tangent is, ⁓ so a little bit later in college, I also ended up getting this group fitness certification and started this side work that I no longer do where I taught group fitness and yoga ⁓ for years. And so much of that is to me, or maybe I'm also a bit of a klutz, so I've had a lot of physical therapy, is that so much of the work we do Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. me. ⁓ Peggy Price: in movement or if you visit a physical therapist is we don't make assumptions based on a person's age or other factors that it might be once we analyze the body or where the pain is, you might have to do a very small isolated exercise to not use other muscles and just hone in on the weak muscle. That is what we're doing in OG. Often the students we work with have strong oral language skills. They might even unconsciously be compensating Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: using those high oral language skills to fill in the gaps for words they can't read on their own. And they might get the gist of what they're reading. But what happens is, as the students progress in school, pictures disappear. The number of multisyllabic words and content-specific words, like photosynthesis or those words are the Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah? Peggy Price: most important for unlocking comprehension, but our students might not have the ability to accurately and automatically read those words. So that compensatory strategy that maybe worked in early elementary schools not working now. So to me, I feel like that all fits together in this diagnostic and prescriptive model. And I often tell the teachers that we're training, think of yourself like a physical therapist. Sometimes you might have to start with a really low weight or I'm in PT right now. have to do Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: this one legged calf raise, but I still do so many other exercise things, but that's what I need so I then don't have pain when I do other. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, think keeping the big picture in mind is such a key because ⁓ people can get so caught up in like the minutia of all the little details. ⁓ but what about this? Should this be in the scope and sequence or this thing that's more complex or not common or whatever, whatever, and kind of can't see the forest through the trees that these skills are in service of the ultimate goal ⁓ ⁓ written expression, reading comprehension, they're not like ends in and of themselves. So that's neat. Yeah. Peggy Price: that's so well said. think ⁓ for errors across lessons is really important. ⁓ that's really the heart of good instruction is being diagnostic and prescriptive. And think that there ⁓ is just a more broader quest. I don't know if you experienced this in Canada of let's find a teacher proof program. And if we find it, the program is going to solve all our problems. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: We really just need teachers to be somewhat robotic administering it or implementing it. But the reality is definitely for our students who are struggling, have dyslexia, that's a program is never going to perfectly fit. mean, that's the same reason you see a physical therapist and you don't just YouTube, I don't know, and just you to see a skilled practitioner. And I think actually the same is true for Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Right. Peggy Price: classroom teachers too. Because classroom teachers have to differentiate instruction and have small groups and whole group and know how to balance all of that. And so that diagnostic and prescriptive muscle here, I'll go back to that PT analogy, we need to build that for all teachers our special educators, our reading interventionists, our tutors, but classroom teachers too. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. appreciate what you said about the program and I think... there's so many tensions, let's say, ⁓ trying educate or give PD to teachers to boost their knowledge so that you don't have to rely on a program. But let's say tier three or kids with learning disabilities, the comorbidities and individual profiles make it very hard for one program to kind of be a catchall for such. unique profiles. So it's such a tension, I find. ⁓ Peggy Price: Yeah, and I don't think the solution is never by a program. There's so many benefits, particularly school-wide. So we have consistency. not all programs are created equal. Just because something states it's science of reading or OG or does not mean we can trust it, we have to have a healthy dose of skepticism. And often in my work, I am consulting with districts or looking at programs to help them decide if it's worth purchasing. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: No, agreed. Yeah. You have to look at it ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: But at the end of the day, it's just like, again, if we went to a medical provider or your physical therapist, at the end of the day, what's guiding them is an understanding of the human body. So what needs to guide teachers is an accurate understanding of how humans learn and specifically reading science as well. And I really hope that things are changing from when I was in graduate school, 20 over 20 years ago that we really invest in scientific literacy ⁓ ⁓ understanding the science of learning. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's neat. I've been learning a lot about the science of learning myself and even trying to include some of that in trainings and conversation with teachers that, okay, we can know how to teach reading, but we have to know how to instruct effectively too. And there needs to be that mix between the two and... work it out, but it's very interesting because when you look at something like, effective principles of instruction, ⁓ they very well with things like OG principles and the structure of the OG lesson. So we're seeing a kind a nice connection there, I feel. Yeah, so. ⁓ Peggy Price: Absolutely. Cheryl Urbanczyk: do you see as some differences in ⁓ between when you first started and now in terms of your own practice or the community you're with or hot topics, things like that? Peggy Price: That's a really good question. So I initially started out in graduate school and after being a public school special educator. And then later when I worked under Sheila Costello, I was at a private school for students with language-based learning disabilities. And almost 13 years ago, so I want to kind of give my background before I launch into that answer. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank Yes, that's all right. Peggy Price: And then almost 13 years ago, my family moved to Vermont and I'm so lucky that the Stern Center took a chance on me. And I think a lot of my shifts in practice are a result of being at the Stern Center. So I just want to for a moment talk about them. It's an educational nonprofit located in Williston, Vermont. It's been around over 40 years. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm. Sure. Peggy Price: We have an amazing department of evaluators that provide comprehensive evaluations, speech and language pathologists that are providing services, sometimes also involved in evaluations, because we know their expertise is really important too. They also provide services, social communication for those on the autism spectrum, customized instruction. Many are or in Gellinham instructors ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: Some are teachers that did their training with us. So ⁓ a lot of cross communication and then our professional learning department. Within that, I'm the director of the Oren Gillingham Institute. And when I started at the Stern Center, there was one ⁓ level course. ⁓ ⁓ Institute had just started. It recently become accredited a couple of years prior. under Gene Foss, who is a founding OG fellow. And just so proud now. Our level course is so popular. We have an interest list and an application and interview process because we just cannot keep up with the demand. We offer three introductory classroom educator courses. ⁓ And we have titles different. We say associate level is OG for intervention associate level. You have to do both. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: the course and the practicum. So that's been a big shift is ⁓ maybe my experience over the years is in every place is a little different. But I feel like if you're going to do an associate level course, you need to commit to the practicum too. This is to learn how to do OG as an intervention. But I don't believe in all or nothing or in letting perfection be the enemy, the good. And any entry point into this reading science is important. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: So we also offer introductory OG courses that meet the classroom educator OGA standards. They're also available for three graduate credits, which means it's a 45-hour course. ⁓ we've learned really from keep listening to teachers and feedback from schools. So we have one devoted to K through two and one that we call intro OG for upper grades, for grades three plus, because the way we really felt ⁓ over time, Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's nice. Yeah. Peggy Price: We needed to have two different courses because what literacy instruction looks like in the general ed classroom is very different in the first early grades of school when they're learning how to read versus really this type of instruction should not stop in third grade, but it's going to change. It's going to be more sophisticated, a much bigger emphasis on morphology, prefixes, suffixes, roots. We want to empower even more vocabulary strategies. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Peggy Price: And so that I think has been a shift is maybe you would have a better view than me is I think there's more of an emphasis on getting OG in the general ed classroom as opposed to this is just a private tutoring and outside of the public school issue. And I really feel this is part of my life's mission is to get more OG into the public schools that there's enough children who struggle to read. This is the gold standard and it shouldn't matter how much money your family's bank account. All children have the right to learn how to read. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100 % yeah, I can't agree more. It's slow, slow progress, but I think, the need is there. The concept of change is there. Did have you heard of the Ontario right to read? you aware of that? Okay, so I'll give you a 60 second synopsis. So some years ago, some parents of dyslexic children took to the Ontario Human Rights Commission a concern that their children with learning disabilities weren't getting their needs met. So what's interesting in Ontario is that the Human Rights Commission has a strong role. And so learning or learning disabilities is a protected ground that children, regardless of Peggy Price: I'm writing it down. Cheryl Urbanczyk: should have equal access and all that kind of thing. So long story short, the Human Rights Commission did indeed find that the schools were not meeting the needs ⁓ children with dyslexia and learning disabilities and put out. this report that has then generated similar types of investigations in parts of the Midwest in Canada and even like places around the world. It's kind of an influential document because it's one of the first, to my understanding, ⁓ of the first human rights cases as opposed to like a legal case. So yeah, we're still working on that, getting all kids on board, but slowly, slowly. So what about... say urgent pressing issues, things kind of crop up is like ⁓ I need to learn more about this or this is my next step in my journey, that type of thing. Peggy Price: these are such great questions, Cheryl. ⁓ ⁓ thing that and so I often say we so I want to know it's not just me at the Stern Center doing teacher training. I have an amazing assistant director Amy Ducey, who is really we really run the OG Institute together and a wonderful team of other OG fellows. Either they were trained by Sheila already at the Stern Center or we train them ⁓ and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Amazing. ⁓ That community is lovely. Yeah, so lucky. Peggy Price: Now they're clinical supervisors or a fellow in training. So it's a really beautiful community. And because so much of what we do is online, not everyone is in Vermont, and it's fine. So one thing that Amy and I, who are both elementary public school, former elementary public school teachers, just keep noticing more and more when we are, we've really had the privilege, we've had a couple districts come to us. Actually, Amy was in a district. Cheryl Urbanczyk: and that's the end. Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: in Vermont, and that's how I met her, that said, we really want to bring this to the classroom and at different levels of multi-tiered system of support. So our special educators or reading interventionists are doing associate level and our classroom teachers are doing classroom educator. And maybe they didn't come with that plan, but they just came to say, we want to change what we're doing, talk us through. And this is how it developed. Cheryl Urbanczyk: You need something to take that place. Peggy Price: And so something we've just really seen over the years is for the classroom teachers, it's so much more than just coming in to observe a lesson. We really need to really look at the entire literacy block. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: True. Flow of the day, everything. Peggy Price: Yeah, to make sure they have time for things. And we have created guidelines for the literacy block. One of the things that is non-negotiable is read alouds. So even though that's not part of the OG lesson, or maybe you're not testing your students on letter sound correspondence, you are testing them on letter sound correspondence or pseudo word reading, but you're not testing them on the read aloud, you've got to do that read aloud and make it enriching and really, yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Or language, vocabulary, Peggy Price: Yes, and ⁓ a couple of years ago, Amy gets the credit for developing this workshop series called Around the Block, really about navigating and infusing the entire literacy block. ⁓ And that the theme of our OGA conference presentation last year, was about creating a science of reading-infused literacy block. And part of that is ⁓ now it seems somewhat obvious, because I feel like Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. It was a good presentation. Yes. Yeah. Peggy Price: Emily Hanford gave us the permission to say the quiet out loud that we've all been saying behind closed doors. We've got to get the balanced literacy three queuing system out. We can't in one part of the day be encouraging phonics. And then in another part of the day, giving kids books that it's like, am a lion, I am a lionfish and ⁓ the lines, all the sentences start the same way. And a child that just knows what those pictures are. And I'm quoting from a specific book in a popular program that Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Peggy Price: ⁓ I've seen go home with kids that you're subverting all the good phonics instruction that was done at another time in the day. ⁓ I think that's one thing we're helping schools to do. ⁓ that can be a tough walk. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm. like that change management process is important and it's not just adding like a silo of phonics and then going other silos, let's say, or, ⁓ kind compartmentalizing without helping to see those connections. it's really a whole shift as opposed to drips of things, ⁓ Peggy Price: couldn't have said it better myself. So something I'm really excited about is I did a private workshop series this year called Cultivating Comprehension. like alliteration. ⁓ And really about going back to what you were saying about good instructional principles are really those OG principles direct, explicit, and quoting Dr. Anita Archer about the importance of high student engagement. And about Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly. Peggy Price: Just take a step back. Let's really look at the forest, not the specific trees, is we need to have a high level of student engagement at any time we are teaching and how to really infuse more just rich vocabulary instruction throughout the day. we can't do everything all at once for listeners to say, like, this just feels so much. Just take on one thing or for school leaders, ⁓ one ⁓ If maybe Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. So true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Over time. Peggy Price: having a decodable text library in the school for interventionist use or for the K-12 classroom. Because if we do it right, students should not need decodable text by the end of second grade. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I think that's some misconception that they're there for a purposeful reason for instruction. Some kids may be more than others, some kids significantly longer than others, but they're not the end goal. They are a tool for youth. ⁓ So Peggy Price: Yeah, so when you ask like, where do I want to continue to grow and learn? ⁓ I really want to be a support to school systems making this change because the professional development that we're providing, the coaching or the consulting with the school leaders, that's an important piece. But the hard work is really being done in school day in and day out. And I'm not there. And how can I best support them? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: And one of the most gratifying experiences is teachers that we've worked with over the years who have become principals and curriculum directors in districts. And when you've had that personal experience of working with a struggling student and seeing your instruction really work, can't, I find that ⁓ school leaders, they have this passion of understanding that student sense of belonging, social, emotional. is completely wrapped up with literacy. We cannot separate the two. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. No, no, that's very true. Very true. Plus it just gives a whole nother wealth of support for that school, those teachers, those families when you have that as part of your repertoire. good. All so I guess we kind of like wrap for today. What's a piece of advice you'd like to share? ⁓ Peggy Price: ⁓ that's a good one too. So I typed up a couple, two of my favorite quotes. And the first one is again from, I'm sorry, what Cheryl? The first one is from Anita Archer. There is no comprehension strategy powerful enough to compensate for the fact you can't read the words. Cheryl Urbanczyk: hope my son can't wait to hear them. Mm-hmm. Hopefully, they can't wait to hear them. Good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, can't, yeah, so true. Peggy Price: And I would urge any school leaders or schools out there, be optimistic and have this healthy dose of skepticism around any curriculum you are looking to purchase. If any curriculum is somehow suggesting that you can become a strong reader and you don't have to actually be accurate reading the words, run away from that program. Don't spend the tax mayor. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ Peggy Price: money on that. And the other one is from Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, fight for the things you care about, but do it in a way that will lead others to join you. Cheryl Urbanczyk: exactly. Well, that's so awesome. And I think, that's kind of what I'm hoping these conversations will help do is, people hear about OG, listen to just, regular people ⁓ learning about OG, studying it, becoming practitioners, showing ⁓ by that representation that this is possible through the successes we see and we can be, those guiding people in to support our struggling learners is so key. yeah, awesome. ⁓ Peggy Price: I agree, Cheryl. And I just wanted to put a plug for, I really believe there's an entry point for everyone. And the entry point is not necessarily full OG course and a practicum. And a great entry point, well, one is your podcast. So thank you for this on top of everything else you're doing. The OG Academy newsletter is filled with ⁓ articles. A couple of years ago, I wrote an article Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Peggy Price: a guide for schools looking to adopt the science of reading with very helpful practical questions to ask when they're looking at a curriculum ⁓ maybe will be in the show notes. ⁓ recently in Vermont, our local chapter of the Reading League, the Vermont chapter, has out a series of articles called Reading in Brief written all by Vermont educators on different topics, Dr. Melissa Farrell, who Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Peggy Price: works at the Stern Center, wrote several on assessment. And I was really privileged to be asked to be the editor of the Morphology series. And so again, lots of practical articles on how to teach self-expelling rules or how to teach T-I-O-N. So you could, anyone could just Google the Reading League Vermont chapter and find these articles chock full of practical, helpful information. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. That's great. Well, thanks for sharing those resources and for all of your efforts in preparing them. So, well, thanks for being here, Peggy. It was great to chit chat and learn more about you. And I'm looking forward to our paths to cross at a conference or something else sometime soon. So thank you. Peggy Price: Thank you, this was an honor.