Latest / Beat The Odds with Dre, Rodney, & Brylan / OpenAI’s Transparency Problem, Zuckerberg’s AI Hypocrisy & The Case for Licensing Superintelligence

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OpenAI’s Transparency Problem, Zuckerberg’s AI Hypocrisy & The Case for Licensing Superintelligence · Beat The Odds with Dre, Rodney, & Brylan

• Dre: Yo, what's good, y'all? Welcome back. Bryland, it's good to see you, bro. You wasn't here on the last pod, man. We missed you, man. But we got some good Brylan: Yeah. Dre: stuff to talk about today, man. But it's good to see you, man. Brylan: Likewise, likewise, man. it's it's Rodney: Good to see you too, man. Brylan: it's it's been a busy last few weeks, but man, we probably got a few more weeks of it, but it is what it is. But glad for w Rodney: right. Brylan: we're gonna be able to have this discussion. Rodney: that a much needed one. a lot of back and forth in the chats over the last week and a half. even Brylan: Hello. Rodney: even e even Dre and I had a had a bit of a back and forth where we had like five topics planned, but we only talked about like two. So but let let's just let's just get straight to it. The the the title of this pod or the title or Or the synopsis is quote unquote pace the frontier. That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. Pace the frontier. Now, I am in a corner, and Dre feels that he is neutral, and Bryan feels like he's on the opposite of where I'm at. Now, what I think is that Dre is not. He is the maybe the closest to neutral, but he's still leaning on the opposing end of my side. And then Bryan is on the opposing end. In fact, he feels much stronger about his beliefs over the last week, which surprised me. But here's what it is: Dario comes out in the top of the week. suggesting that we need to pace the frontier. That there is all of these different let's say Let's just say different things that we need to be concerned about. And this is off the backs of the tweet by I believe a guy named Jacob Coxton. I believe that I believe that's his his name. who did this whole media run. And he's essentially saying, look, we need the government to come in and regulate and stop us from creating this dangerous technology. Now, I will say Dario's very PR trained, so when directly asked about Jacob, He didn't directly shoot Jacob down, but he didn't amp up the whole greater than 10% chance of human extinction, which is what caught everybody's attention. Because greater than 10%, just for those that don't know math, that could be anywhere between 11 to 100%. So that's a very, that's a that's a very In or in other words, I think there's a nine the up to a 90% chance that we could be extinct through the technology that we're creating. So it's just the word choice was interesting there. And this sparked a whole discussion about about a whole lot of different things. But I just want to be specific. On the on the 12th is when Dario came up with that essay. and he feels that the model power is increasing fast and that he wants safety work to speed up. And then another thing is that the specific concern came with the recursive self-improvement, which is a loop where AI can now help build the next AI. So for example, OpenAI is using Astra. To find vulnerabilities in its own model, but then also it can use it to help build the next model that they have. Another fact is that Sam Altman, Elon, and then also Demons from DeepMind at Google also came and backed this call as well on Twitter. Elon clarified his statements a little bit later, but we'll get into that just a little bit later. But I just wanted to lay out the carpet and the table there without necessarily saying where any of us land in this discussion. Brylan: So Dre: What what yeah, go ahead, Riley. Brylan: Yeah. So which I'm I'm I'm curio I'm curious, Rodney. I mean all all all like when I when I was reading that, I was like, wow, like this actually kinda like you know makes a lot of sense. and and part of the reason why I say that is like I think probably since what was that? Either June or July. specifically, I think it was around the time I can't remember if yeah the the conference was like the G twenty or whatever, but it was when all the Western leaders all came together and the AI leaders, you know, like Sam Altman, Dario, et cetera, got all into a room and started talking about like what does regulating AI on a global level start to look like? And I think that was kind of like the first time where we saw all three of them you know, kind of express the same thing that like there does need to be some type of collaborative regulatory body across all these different countries. And out of that, that's where you if you think about it, you got you heard from the three different leaders three different times, right? So first it was Demis when he was talking about, you know, his his his AI standards in that organization, what that looked like. Consider that was July. And then in between that you h had the whole mythos kind of like scare. Then you also had the hugging face, you know, scare as well. All that stuff basically leading up to the art, you know, the the the the read that you just put out, right? But I think what I find fascinating, and maybe this is just my bias here, Rodney: Yeah. Sure. Brylan: is yeah, I think I think this is actually a case where like Yeah, you have these individual incidents that are driving policy. And I think, you know, right now at this scale, I can agree that some of these things may not necessarily warrant some of the claims around like 10% will kill kill human beings or whatever. But I think when you consider the fact that one of the big things that All these labs, everybody in the industry agrees is like this is going to require a larger build out. They have said like data centers gotta grow 10X. Therefore, that means more compute. If you have more compute, you have more agents. If you have more agents that potentially can collaborate, if this is what one agent did, I think it's more so like what does the possibilities look like if you have ten thousand or a hundred thousand or whatever agents, you know, potentially doing that? And when I think you consider that and the fact that the people building the thing are each like kind of saying the same thing. Yes, they could be doing this to try to get a strategic advantage, regulatory capture, all that stuff people have been throwing out. But I do think it's worth pausing and really trying to understand like where could they be coming from. And yeah, I don't necessarily have any hard critiques on like, you know, the the the the the three step kind of like proposal that like Dario put out, I think it's thoughtful, but I I do think it's reasonable to assume that like that's probably gonna be iterated and changed, you know, and and and evolved too. but at least these conversations are happening before before I I I don't even want to say too late, but before the shit gets out of hand. And in the reality is it will get out of hand and I think kind of what you've been saying, and this was actually something if you think about it on the pod Maybe this was a few months ago. We had a conversation about how these models and the pace of them releasing it were starting to speed up. And so the fact that like I I'm glad it's now a public conversation everyone is starting to have. But I think when I hear all these Frontier Labs come out and speak on this issue, what I'm hearing is they cannot build the defender fast enough to outpace the capabilities that Are starting to emerge from these models. They're not saying like, let's stop investing in AI, let's stop building in it. None of that. I think it's more so like they want to be more thoughtful on what does that defense look like. So that's kind of like where I stand right now. and I think a lot of the conversation around like Dario, yeah, it's just hate. It's hate at this point. I mean, he he yeah, when w like j like, like genuinely, like. Dre: Hm. Brylan: G no no no no no no genuinely like when you do those type of numbers when you do those type of numbers and and and it once again you got to remember at the top of the year when the whole Trump thing came down with the Department of War, I stood on it. I told you they were gonna go to a hundred billion dollars. I told you like and so and so they've collected haters along the way. It's expected. It's expected. They did what our podcast is for, which is beat the odds, beat the odds. So that's that's that's Rodney: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Brylan: where I stand. Rodney: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Dre: Yeah Yeah, I mean I I don't have much too much to add to y'all, but I I'll just say a couple of things. First, the ten percent thing, I never took that serious. I understand how people can zoom in on that and that that seems like the most serious part of what was said, but I never actually took that serious because to me Yeah, Brylan: But how could you take it serious? Dre: because to me it's like how how can anybody take like where would you even get that number from? Like i it's so many things that pop up in my logical brain that I'm like, I don't take that serious, like Yeah, like is there the chance that yeah, you could have one of these things hack a water treatment facility and poison a whole community and do like, yeah, like of course. Like, yeah, but like, you know, or create some bioweapon or yeah, like yeah, I I I could consciously think about those things, but that particular 10% thing, I never was hung up on that particular thing. I th I I think two things can be true at the same time. Like, I think there's a world that exists where the labs can continue to push the pace. in terms of the frontier, work on the most advanced models, which I believe they should, right? Just as we have across many other different areas and like pharmaceuticals, right? And energy, right? There's tons of advanced research that could be perceived to be dangerous if in the hands of just everyday people this being done right now. And so I don't think pacing to me needs to necessarily mean that it needs to stop internally. But I think there's a difference between the development and what happens in the labs and then how that technology gets deployed. Similar to what like Anthropic did when they first launched Fable, they didn't just roll it out to everybody. They kind of wrote it out to a few enterprise customers. They got a lot of backlash about that. They made some noise about safety and things like that. And then they eventually wrote out, I guess, a peeled back version to the consumers. So I I I think there's a world where maybe the future looks like different models, there's different levels of access. And I think that's appropriate. And I think that's fine. And I think that's reasonable and fair. And I think, you know, China has some already regulations in place and rules in place. So I, you know, I I think look, if the people who are building the machines are all unanimously saying that, hey guys, there's a problem, then I think we should take them serious. And I think some of the rhetoric from people like David Sachs, you know, some of what he's saying, I I I I agree with in terms of it is the responsibility of the company, but the reality is If he were an investor in any of these companies, I don't know if he would be saying what he's saying. And so I have a problem with the the with the with the misalignment, right? Because I don't think he would probably tell any of his portfolio companies if they had the ability to capture lightning in the bottle, like a company like Anthropic on exponential growth. I I don't think he'd be telling them to slow down and things like that. You know, I mean let's let's let's go back to what happened with Facebook. Like they've asked for re they they used to ask for regulation. Right. So even the stuff Mark Zuckerberg is saying, it's like it's bullshit. You were doing the same thing with social media. Right. And now we can look back and see the implications of not having regulation and what it has done to society. So I I think we're ne we need to learn from that. And so I don't know. That's those are those are my thoughts on it. Rodney: Yeah, for sure. yeah, I mean I think it's I think it's fair to say that if Sachs was was a investor in in either of these companies that he may not be saying what he's saying right now. I think that's fair. I think on the on on the flip side though, you could have investors that may feel what Sachs feels, but because they're financially behind it, they might not be saying it. So then that that kind of like I I see your point that you're like, okay, come on, come on. You would you would you you would be playing the same game too. so I can see that point. But then it's also another thing where it's where it's where where I'm thinking, are we getting all the honest truth from high level people? Cause so many people stand to gain. from these trillion dollar IPOs from OpenAI and and and Anthropic, et cetera. And but I I think that and then yeah Brian I I I I get it that there is hate on Dario for sure. but let the record be clear. I hated Dario. I was hating on Dario well before the success. So so so my hate for Dario Brylan: You've been a hater from the beginning. Rodney: Yeah, I've been hating from the beginning. So my my my my ca his origin story I didn't like. I just didn't like his origin story. Cause you you probably would have had let Dre say this, but Dre has said they're all they're all the same. And that's my point. My whole point is that they're all the same. And Bedario tries to act like he's not the same. And Trump feels the same way that I do, which is that Hey, Dario's trying to act like he's some type of princess in this crazy game that's being played. He's not. He's like everybody else. So that's where my hate comes from. Dario is like everybody else. He ain't no special guy. I know Bryan used to say he's a scientist, he's smart, he's this, he's that. He blah blah blah blah blah blah. Dario is in it to win it. He's in it to win it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Brylan: He can be all those things. He can be all those things. I I like like when I see Dario in the club, I envision Dario being one of the guys that was stamped. Yeah. Like he would like when I heard when I heard you say he when I heard Rodney: In the club? No. Brylan: you say Dario's a princess. Yeah, when you said Dario's a princess, I'm like, yeah, he's definitely in the section with his man purse. Like, yeah, that's that's that's Dario. And guess what? Who's gonna hate on him? You can't. He got a hundred Billy. Rodney: Right. And and he would have he would have he would he be throwing the most money and I get that. I I understand that. Couldn't nobody top what you he couldn't nobody top Brylan: So what are we talking about? Rodney: all the they can't nobody top that. But but what what I'm saying, I just wanted to be clear that I just want to the the different the difference is that there's a reason that I lock in on Dario and it's because of his specific angle of I'm the good guy in this it I'm the good guy now and I just don't buy that that now Brylan: But hold up. Jingly, is he supposed to go out and be like, I'm the bad guy? Rodney: He doesn't have to s he doesn't have to pretend like anything. He doesn't have to his whole company is founded upon. Brylan: What if he's not pretending? What if he's like genuinely just being him? Rodney: No, I think he is being himself, but he's just delusional. Sometimes you could be being yourself, but you just you're delusional about what's really motivating you. Have you ever been it have you ever had a situation in life where you thought like you fully believe something and in hindsight you realize like, man, you know what? I really was doing that because of X, Y, and Z. Do you that's never happened to you? Brylan: He sound he he sounded like a first time founder. Dre: Yeah. that's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Brylan: I mean but but but but that's what he is. That's what he Rodney: Everybody always giving him a pass. And there's always a Brylan: is. He d this his first company. Rodney: Okay, so now he okay. Okay. Dre: That's fair. I mean, I think Brylan: Like it j it just went to a hundred billion. Dre: I mean looking back on it, looking looking back on it again, and I and I've said this before about Dario's like criticize his approach. Fine, I think that's fair. I think that's fair for him to be criticized. He's in the position he is, he should be able to take that. That is that's just part of the cause, right? But I think I think it's he gets credit for taking that framing in that position because again, who else has been able to rival Chat GPT? Who else has been able to rival OpenAI? We've have all both you, you know, you and I, Rodney, have been huge fans and supporters of Sam and OpenAI from the beginning. We have supported their dominance. We believed in their dominance. Even when Bryan didn't believe, we're like, yo, this they're clearly gonna be one of the most important companies in the future. But what was not obvious to me is that the second best thing up or even starting to pass them up would be a company like Anthropic. Like, yeah, the possibility existed. I thought maybe Google, I I could see Gemini being there, maybe something Facebook put out, you know, at the time I forget what they were calling it, Lama or whatever. Like maybe that might be their all right, cool. But I didn't think like something like anthropic. So I mean, again, while we criticize him, I mean shit, whatever he did worked. And so again, we're found we're founders, Rodney: Yeah. Dre: we're we're founder, you know, we speak to founders all the time. Whatever he did worked, it was successful. And I and honestly, I don't know if he did Rodney: Yeah. Dre: something different. Would they be on that same scale in Tier as OpenAI? Maybe. But it worked. Rodney: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let me give y'all a win. Let me give y'all a win. let me give y'all let me give y'all a win, right? Let me give y'all a little bit of a win. I'm hating a little bit because the Good Guy Act worked on a lot more people than I think it should have. And and and that Dre: Ha ha ha. Rodney: that does get that that that that that that does bother me. That that that bothers me. Dre: That's crazy. That's crazy. Hey, Rodney: So I get I guess somebody has to do it. Because if Sam, I guess if Sam's the villain and and then Elon's the villain, then you gotta have a good guy in the story. And he Dre: Yeah. Got to. Rodney: came out because when I saw I seen co-workers say, man, entropic, they really believe, they really believe, and they they really want. Like I seen this a year ago. I'm saying, y'all, y'all, y'all believe, y'all believe that they they really Dre: Yeah. Rodney: believe in this. And so that was getting to me. That that that irked me. That that really did So I know they're all I know they're all the same. So so Dre: Yeah. Rodney: maybe it is a bit of hate because I'm like, wait, hold on, this good guy act is working? This this Dre: Yeah. Rodney: this this this Brylan: We gotta we g we gotta work on that. Rodney: may maybe it maybe it's it okay, cool, okay. So I'll give him that. But what I'm not gonna give him is that he's actually who he says he is. He's not that good guy, he's not that he ruthless. He Brylan: So so so let me ask this question. Rodney: he a ruthless politician. He's a ruthless politician and he's not the good guy and he pretends to be. But but it's working. Brylan: It's it's it's possible. Rodney: But it's working. It's working. Brylan: But hold up. It it's possible that that's what the game requires. And so what I'm curious about though. Rodney: And if it does, if it does, then okay, then okay, okay. He wins, okay. He wins on that. Okay. Brylan: W what what about his what about what he put in that in that essay do you disagree with? Rodney: I'll I'll explain. I'll explain. So there's a few things. So He wasn't full like he claims that he wasn't fully on board for regulation and government intervention until the hugging face incident with open AI, which I feel as though is not true. I think that he was for that before that. And I think I think that's a slight dig at Open AI. It's a competitive dig, of course. I I think that's just not true. I think he's using that As a as don't get me wrong though, he's right about the hookie face attack. And I've said this on this podcast that I don't know how people weren't concerned about the hookie face attack at all. Like that was a crazy thing to happen that it broke out of an environment and then hacked all these different whatever the things are. That was crazy. And then I would say, He believes that there needs to be these outside regulators, government verified, etc., that can almost like be employees inside of the company and anthropic be willing to do it. Now, now they're gonna start with third party because but because of course the government is not currently they don't have a body for this. so that's fine. but What I wanna bring attention to real quick is something that both the both you and Bryan sorry, sorry, both Dre and Bryan have brought up, which is that the builders are saying this, right? And I think that I understand what what what what what you all what y'all are s hold on, let me finish that though. Go ahead. Actually, no no, you go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead. Brylan: Hold up, before but before before you make that point, we I just got go ahead, go ahead. Cause we we we skipping over something very important. So you really don't disagree with anything that he said. I didn't hear you say anything specific. Rodney: I haven't finished though. I'm not finished yet. I'm not finished yet. I I have like I have a l Brylan: Go ahead. Rodney: of a li I have a list. but no, actually I don't agree with I sorry I don't disagree with pacing the frontier. I want that to be clear. I don't agree, I don't disagree with the concept of pacing the frontier. So I I just won't put that out there. Okay. but one thing that Bradlin and Dre has said is the builders are saying this, the creators are saying this. And I understand what you guys mean because you're talking about the people who are technically at the frontier, which would which would really honestly only really be anthropic and and open AI, but we'll go ahead and give SpaceX AI the the the front around that too. But I think that to exclude the the Jensen. to exclude the, you know, Marcus Zuckerberg, to exclude these other voices that are at the frontier, maybe not like from a maybe not in our conceptual way, but they are builders just as much. Now I know Dre is already killed Zuck's credibility. So in Dre's mind, Zuck can't speak on this. So so so so but I feel I but I feel as though that's not fair. that's not fair p Dre: No, I I don't feel that I don't feel that way. He he can speak on it. But I'm saying I feel like some of his opinion, unless he is grown, which he's he's he can do. What I'm saying is what Zuck is saying today is not what Zuck was saying when he was on the frontier in his industry, which was social, and he was building these capabilities. He wasn't saying that. So his language Rodney: Y yes. He wasn't. Dre: today is totally opposite into the spectrum of what he was saying then. Rodney: I agree. Dre: But yet it appears as if he's like almost like criticizing the frontier leaders for taking their position, which was the same position he took. So if anything, he Rodney: I understand, I understand. Dre: should be the most empathetic in the room and be like, I under I I really understand where y'all coming from because I've been there. But he's not acting like that. He's not acting like that. He's he's acting like the Rodney: but but but do you okay okay so you you but but do you want him to Dre: I can be I can we can be responsible. So so can you. But it's like bro come on you've been in that you've been in the trenches in a competitive race to build the number one company in the world. And none of that shit was true for you. Rodney: In his twenties. Dre: So I'm just saying that's all I'm saying about Zuck. And I have and I have deep Rodney: In his twenties, in his twenties. Dre: re I have deep respect for Zuck. I I love Zuck. I think he's done amazing things, but I'm just calling out the contradiction in terms of his narrative today versus then. And maybe he's grown as a person. I really hope he has. That's phenomenal. But I'm just saying he should acknowledge that and at least be a bigger voice than just simply saying, we, you know, we could control ourselves now, because for so long, Facebook couldn't control themselves. Rodney: Yeah, that's true. And I w what I would say though is that I I don't fully you can't assume anybody grows, but we have to remember Zuck made a lot of these choices in his twenti in his twenties, early twenties, and then also early 30s. These a lot of the things that were the front of the the the frontiers of social media, that was in his early twenties when he didn't have a lot, he he didn't have a lot of experience. He didn't I'm not I don't want to make a lot of excuses for him though, but I would imagine though that somebody who has Brylan: But those are excuses. Rodney: I mean in your twenties, bro? In your twenties? In your twenties? No, no, we no, y'all don't make excuses for Dario. Dario's like fifty Dario's almost fifty years old. Dario's almost fifty. Dario is almost fifty. Dre: Yeah, bro, bro, no, no, no. He had no no no no no no no no no. Zuck had the most capable people. I no, no, no, no. No, no, no. I'm not making Brylan: This this this the Hold up, go go there. Take it there. He no hold up, hold Dre: we're Brylan: up. Dre: we're not making excuses. We're looking at exactly what's being said and what they're doing. I'm I I'm I don't need to make no excuses for nobody. What you say and what you do, you're responsible for and you gotta stand on that. That's all. That's it. So I'm not making no excuses for nobody. What Dario says, Dario stand on. I don't necessarily agree with everything Dario say. And I don't necessarily disagree with everything Zuck is saying. That's all that's all I'm saying. Rodney: Yeah. I got you. I got you. I got you. So so so the main thing so the main thing is is it's it's just but what I'm trying to figure out though is are we stuck on the fact that at least at least for Zuck, are we stuck on the fact that he's he may be a hypocrite, but is he right though? Like like so he might be let's let's let's say he's a hypocrite. Does that make him wrong? Brylan: No no no no. Dre: I think two things can be true at the same time, bro. I think everybody's trying to make Rodney: That's fair, that's fair. Dre: it everybody's trying to make it a this or that. If we all agree that there should be pacing, then let's start there. Rodney: Yes. Dre: Everybody's like trying to knickk knack, but the timing is this, but then you said, no, no. Do we agree like that pacing should exist? If we agree Rodney: Mm-hmm. Dre: that pacing should exist, then there has to be, I would assume, some system, some process, some way of organizing what that looks like. and what that means. And in our society, that typically looks like oversight or regulation, third party. Like there, there's there's there's there's other examples to look at to be able to kind of pick and choose what that potentially could be. So if we agree on that, then then then let's let's just let's anchor in that. That's all I'm saying. Like what do we actually what Rodney: Yeah, yeah. Dre: what do we actually agree on? Because everybody's getting caught up in the into the silos. But all they're asking for is let's we are building something that is very capable. Let's pace it. What's the what's the problem with that? What what's the problem with that? Rodney: Yeah, yeah. Brylan: Get so hold on, hold on, hold up. Hold up, hold up, hold up. Rodney: But there's wait, hold on, but hold on, real quick. I think the problem is is that ever everybody's not talking about the same thing, right? So for example, on the last podcast and even on this podcast, Drake, you're talking a lot about consumer access, right? Like things not going bad when you give to consumers, right? That is a certain form of pacing, right? That's a certain form of pacing. But then, for example, in Dario's specific article, he's focused on lab development, period, getting out of control. Yeah, like not even like the like the consumer level, that that's a concern. But he's focused on the lab getting out of control. Like he doesn't want the the the super intelligence to get out of control in the lab. This is why I use the analogy of the covet virus where They may have been experimenting in these labs, they say hypothetically in China in China. I don't know how true that is. And then things get out of hand and then they go into the world and create a problem. Now it it depend so there's nuance on the pacing and it depends on what people are talking about. So so for example, If it's the lab pacing, then the question is, okay, why exactly do what why exactly I I guess I guess to Zuck's point and Jensen, why exactly actually, you know, because what Zuck is basically saying is that Because there is legal liability for making significant mistakes, which they did not face with the hooking face attack. The hooky face attack, had anybody else had done that, that would have been like real legal consequences for doing that. You cannot hack into systems and attack them with thousands of thousands of requests. That's comp that's a those are computer crimes. You cannot do that. What Zuck is claiming is that is that is that the way the law is set up, that's already a deterrent that's enough to get people to think about safety internally. Another thing that Zuck brought up was that super they decided not to focus on recursive self-improvement right now. They decided to focus on users. Now, one could argue that that's easy for Zuck to say when he's already built. A whole empire of users that are using Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, etc. So, yes, they don't have to focus on recursive self-improvement and worry about that stuff. They're worried about bringing values to their users. So, so I can see where Zuck is not necessarily being fair on that on that angle. but there's nothing wrong with them pacing it. I think people have a problem with. What they're calling for. It's not clear why they cannot just take the steps that they're taking in coordination. So for example, Elon agreed, right? But when he was called into the the all-in conference, he said he said, I should clarify I should clarify my statement. I want to say exactly what he said, real quick. He said, I I I should I should have been a little bit more clear. Dario is right that there should be some oversight. I think the right step is peer review of AI by competitors to start this off. So that's what he said. And I think that that is reasonable. I don't think nobody can argue with that. I don't think a Dre: Mm. Rodney: soul could argue with that. But when you start having Bernie Sanders say, you know, hey, look, this is like we gotta this hey look. Let's it's 90% chance they're gonna kill us. And then you got Kamala Harris popping out. Hey, we gotta we gotta get Congress has to get control of AI. We we have all these different people popping out that don't know what's going on, saying, Hey, we gotta get get this under control because they're politicians. And I think they're the messaging is not hitting people. And it's interesting. I I I hear with you what you guys were saying about when you heard the the 10% thing. you didn't really take it serious. The thing is, is that I'm not necessarily speaking to if we took it serious or not. I'm thinking, my my mom's sending me this link that says this and is saying it on CNN. I see people's dads are sending them the links. Like, wait, hold on, is this true? And it's that title. That so so outside of our outside of us who are like, okay, we we don't care about the percentage, we looking through it with a lot more nuance. I'm saying just adding credibility to that and then blasting that out and then going to every mainstream, etc., you're creating this scenario to where it is I mean, one, it's just adding a lot of fog, as you can see. Is it there's a lot of confusion and fog in the air. But I would ultimately agree, Pace and Frontier is not an issue. But do I agree that the government needs to do it? I don't think that they need to do that. I think that it's perfectly fine to do what Elon said, which is that, hey, look, before these models, like let's peer review each other's models. I'll we'll we'll test yours. You test ours. We'll also have third parties tests, et cetera. And let's compete on the global stage. But I don't see why the government needs to create a body to come in and say, here are the rules, follow these. You have to meet these criteria. I don't see that part. And that's what it seems to be that they're looking for. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that don't look for it. It could if it's gonna benefit their business, do what's best for your business. I can't hate on you for doing what's best for your business at the end of the day, but if that's what you're saying, I'm against that. Dre: Yeah. I do think the liability aspect is a huge piece of it, right? I mean, depending upon how this could play out, I mean it could has the potential to maybe bring I mean, one one lawsuit, I mean, these are massive companies, right? But I mean, one lawsuit can bring a company down. I mean, we've seen that before, right? and even right Rodney: Yeah. Dre: now, Facebook is facing a lot of litigation in a lot of states Rodney: Yeah. Dre: and those fines are piling up, right? And it's becoming a problem Rodney: Yeah. Dre: for them, right? So I do think there's real risk and liability, right? and so I think when you have oversight and participation from the government, I do think that lessens the liability. For example, what happened to Boeing when you had hundreds Rodney: All right. Dre: of people die from a plane crash? Did anybody go to jail? I don't remember anybody going to jail. I to this day I don't remember Boeing executives going to jail. And there's been so much information about the the negligence and lack of oversight and what's happening at Bowen, who I mean is an important per so again, even even with government oversight, right? There's still there's still shit there. But when you're building something so critical like a plane that people are flying on, maybe there does help to have another another head in the room. So I do think there's something with liability. and then I and then too, I think when we're when we're building something so important as AI, why not have the government involved? By the way, I'm not prescribing what that looks like. I'm not suggesting that it needs to be this thing where every model gotta go through review. I'm not saying that the government gotta be like a hand on the fist, or I'm not I'm not suggesting that. I I'm not suggesting that at all. Because not every oversight or regulation or or governing body has law enforcement capabilities or in enforcement capabilities to do anything, right? But I do think it's important to have somebody there. Why? Because we do have politicians that represent us in in this country. You're right, Rodney, they don't know what's going on, and they should know what's going on. And part of that is not necessarily just telling them, hey, we'll go figure it out. They got a lot of shit that they're doing. So I'm gonna give them a little bit of grace for that. But there does need somebody who I think is in the room that represents the government that at least has a seat at the table, involved in these model reviews, involved in these peer conversations, and at least providing guidance, understanding where we're trying to go as a country, giving more information to what's happening outside of this country. We got adversaries doing all type of shit that Sam don't know nothing about, Dario don't know nothing about, and there does need to be coordination because we are talking about a critical technology that is important to national security. So I I do think there should be coordination like there is in every other major industry. From again, pharmaceuticals to aerospace to energy, like all all of these banking, all of these other critical industries, there is partnership between the government. Now again, I'm not saying the government should. come in and over regulate and create all these rules. No, I'm saying there should be partnership. And I and I think that's I I again I think that should be warranted. So that's what I that's what I think. And I I get it. There's different narratives out there. But I'm just putting out what I on the record what I think. I do think there should be partnership between the government and private companies in AI, just like there are in other critical industries. And I think that should happen soon. Before this shit gets out of hand, like Brian said. Brylan: Yeah. Hold on, let me Rodney: Did they should they they should say Brylan: let me let me add something real quick, Roddy. Let me let me add some real quick. Yeah. Rodney: go ahead yeah go yeah go yeah go ahead. Brylan: Cause I think yeah, I I I I I I I strongly agree with what you're saying too, Dre. And I think, you know, all those different industries that you named and like those companies in they're infrastructure. And the thing about infrastructure is like it it changes how life is done. And we're still in the early innings, but like, yeah in these early innings, AI has already shown how it's starting to change people's life. And we haven't even started talking about like the branch of like robotics, right? And so I do and and so I do I I I do think, you know, from from a government standpoint, there's a lot of like second and third order consequences where nobody knows what the hell that might look like. And that's that's going to be something where politically and socially we are going to need the people that are writing these policies. To be involved in that conversation. I think one of the one of the big issues with all this is the framing. The framing from the beginning has been that this is a race. And nobody has ever defined on like what is it a race to. Like if you really just think about it, like no one has come out and been clear on like we're racing to do this or what that. And I think the natural assumption has been like, it's been a race to always have like the best model capabilities. But I think Jensen on that all in summit said like he gave a really good definition of the race that like I had never heard anyone describe it as. And he was like, it's not a race to have the biggest model or the best like capabilities. Those are nice. But he was like, it's a race to exploit the technology the best. And, you know, he gave the metaphor of like, you know, Germany just because that's where a lot of, you know, the insights and inventions came from to develop the nuclear like, you know, technology for the bomb. But it was the US who took advantage of it. Right. And I Rodney: Yeah. Brylan: think when you when you when we reframe the race, because people are always going to see this as a race, but it's a race to exploit the technology. I think what you're going to end up seeing emerge is the current frame creates this picture that governance is supposed to happen at the model layer. Right. It's conversations around like the government's reviewing the models, et cetera, et cetera. I think what you're gonna end up seeing is something a little bit more like broad and diverse because ultimately government is gonna have to figure out how are you gonna mo how how are you gonna govern the fact that people are exploiting this technology in new creative ways that we didn't even consider how that was gonna like reshape society. And so, yeah, I th I think the frame matters. Like when you change when you change the frame, government is placed Differently, in my opinion. Rodney: For sure, for sure. I think just so just so real real qu real quick, Trump had came out and said that he believes that there are negative forces that are pushing AI danger talk and those things won't w will not happen. and that that Dario is pretending to be the perfect little angel. I Brylan: Hold up. Rodney: I just hold on, real quick, let me finish. And then whoever wins AI wins. But one thing I'll say, one thing I'll say is that I do believe that what Trump more practically, or just the administration more practically, should do, is have government units go into these labs and just spend time. studying and learning for these neck for for a period of time. Cause I think that what there's just no way that they can just pop up and just be like, okay, this is what we need to do. They they th these these companies have broken free at a speed of momentum that it's hard for people who are even watching it on a day to day to really understand. And so I think that a a good step for the government would be to get in there and to get eyes on the business you know important parts of the of the model development is in relation to how it's actually could be used and its capabilities and just be learning for the for a quarter or two, probably to be honest, not even probably longer than that, for the next year, and and just have these people just in there asking questions and and reporting, etc. Because what I don't want to see is like I said, yeah, we understand that 10% number means nothing, but when it becomes a headline and it starts to become a mainstream headline, that is what outside of the bubble is seeing this ads. So then so then when when we so when I talk to people on the on a regular basis on on our street or people who are not in tech and they don't believe in AI or they don't support it or whatever it is, I see why. It's not that I don't I it's not that I don't even understand where they're coming from. I'm I'm I'm sitting there saying okay I'm talking to someone I just met they're very smart they're very bright. And they're against AI. I can see how AI will probably be helpful in their life at some point or will affect their life very soon, but they're not going to embrace it because of A, B, and C. But then I start to think about okay, the A, B, and C has to do with the fact that the messaging from inside of the industry is very poor, in my opinion. I feel like the messaging Dre: Mm. Rodney: is poor. And and for example, Dario doesn't want to shoot down. He danced when they asked him about the ta he danced around it. He didn't want to shoot it down and say, no, that's not that don't, don't he's he's he's like, I we we we have things that we agree with. So he's being political when he does that. And as opposed to just simply saying, Hey, look, no, that 10% number. Nobody can reasonably come up with a percentage, but we d well we are concerned about safety and we want to focus on how to improve that. And we have, and I've come out with with a statement on that, and we're currently doing X, Y, and Z. Just talk more normal. Talk like it. No, he didn't. He didn't. And and and and Dre: Did he say he disagreed did he say he disagree with it? Yeah. So so maybe he may maybe he agrees with it. Like I I'm j I Rodney: Well he Dre: was only saying for at least for me, I don't I don't agree with it. So for me, when I Rodney: Yeah. Dre: see that number, I choose I could choose to believe that. If I see the head this for anybody, like cause Rodney: Yeah. Dre: nobody could control the headlines. The headlines are gonna be what they are. So it's either you could choose to believe that based on what you know and you can go find some other information, or you can choose not to. Like I choose not to, but Dario may well believe that. Maybe he does. Maybe him, maybe maybe there's some internal research that they've done at Anthropic that maybe they've come to that conclusion through some like I was just asking like those information points because I'm like, I don't believe that shit. Rodney: I think if Daro I think if Dario believes that there is a greater than ten percent chance of extinction, that is that that's a very like that's something that only literally people in Silicon Valley could say and and still somehow justify continuing to work on it. We have wars that people protest against, we have genocides, we have all these things that that kill thousands of people, a hundred 10,000 people, etc. If you're working on something that you believe can can wipe out can wipe out humanity, that is that that's the the tone of that, the tone of that is it it if if you if you apply this if he does believe that if he does believe that people are wondering, okay, cool, you believe that, but then you're also gonna sell the stock, and it just becomes confusing. to person who's Dre: Yeah. Rodney: just trying to it it just comes becomes confusing and i and and i know and i know here's the thing right i here's the thing people want to dismiss the messaging to the app the average person listening to that what should they do with that information which should w what when if if they have if they have Dre: That that that positioning that they have on Dario is unfair. The whole why are you working on this? Bro, if Dario wasn't working on this, those things could still be true. Like, so so the argument on why why are you the one? Why because he's working to build, Rodney: But no but why no no but why working on it though? Why working on it though? Dre: because he is working on building safeguards and systems to maybe prevent that from happening. Right? Because even even the guy who wrote that tweet, Rodney: No, no, doesn't no. Absolutely not. Dre: even the guy who wrote the tweet admitted himself that he believes that people et anthropic. Are genuinely concerned about safety and genuinely care about safety, right? So if you care down now, there are people who are working on models who don't give a fuck about safety. They don't care about that shit. But he's saying, hey, I believe that the people I work with and most people, and I'm gonna say Dario too, because he's come out and says that, believes that safety isn't important. So if you're gonna work on the technology, then why I mean, either you're gonna be on that side just just racing towards the 10%. Rodney: They're not doing anything but the because they're not doing because because they're not doing anything different. That's the thing. Like they they're not doing anything different. If they believe it so much, why is it so why is it so similar? Why why is the technology literally so similar to what their competitors are doing? If they believe in safety so much, other than just like just talking about it. If like they may believe that, cool, but why is it not significantly different than their competitors? Dre: I don't know that it's not. Like I don't know what they're doing internally. I don't I don't know what they're Rodney: It's not it's not. Dre: doing. I don't know what they're doing internally. I don't work at anthropic. I don't I don't work at anthropic or work at open or or or work at open OAI, right? So when you so so so bro, all all I'm saying is Rodney: I mean that's the easy that's it. Okay, right, okay, cool. So we can only go off with so we can so right, so so so then so then so then so there's no reason Dre: I I'm I'm just giving my point because I've heard this narrative beyond just you. So this is not even this is not even really addressing your what you said. This is the overarching narrative because I've heard even David Sachs pose that question, which is why are you working on that? Bro, there are people every day that work on infectious diseases. Right, there people that work on critical tech. I've said this critical technology that can be very deemed dangerous. Should we stop working on those things? Should we stop researching pathogens? And should we stop researching bioweapons? Should we stop researching nuclear? Like, like, what are we talking about? Like, there are other examples where people who are working on this technology are working to advance it, but also voice the dangers of it and the concerns of it. Dario's not doing nothing different. Oppenheimer said the same thing, and he was building the nukes. Rodney: And everybody didn't respect and and and Dre: He literally said the same thing. Rodney: and everybody didn't respect Oppenheimer for doing that either though. You know what I'm saying? Brylan: But he turned out to be right. Dre: Exactly, he turned out to be right. Rodney: In fact, it in fact it it turned out that you know why I was right though? Brylan: He was right. Rodney: About what specific thing though? About what specific thing? Because he was right about something, but it we we gotta be specific. Brylan: He was specifically right about the safety piece of it. That that Rodney: Okay, okay, okay. Yes. He was he was worried that it was gonna be used and he continued to build it because he was worried it was gonna be used to hurt you know to to do damage and hurt a lot of people. he was right about it because that's that's exactly that that was he already knew what the UN he already knew what they were gonna do with it. He already knew that. So I mean, to be right about that, wasn't it like one of those things where it's like it was it was vague? It's a race to nuclear for a military purpose. AI already AI, I I guess what I would say though, is that is that AI is going to definitely be that for sure. There's going to be a military purpose for sure at some point. We don't know what it is. Jensen is kinda alluding to that a little bit, Brian, when you say when you say he was when you say he was saying that the the people who exploit the technology the best, or in other words, find the best use cases for the technology Will be the winners in the end, not just raw capability. So I I I attribute that to being, for example, you could have somebody who has an IQ of 140, but if they're not using that, then it doesn't matter. It it it it doesn't matter that they have an IQ of 140 if they're not using that in some productive way. So so So you know, so someone who has an IQ of 110 could be much more productive, doing much more, adding much more value. So that's how I look at that analogy that J Justin is using. I think that there's going to be a I think that The the team at Anthropic, they're under skepticism because they have they they have specifically played the good guys and yes to Dre's point we don't know what they're doing. So I think that maybe they could be a bit more transparent and then if everybody saw what they were doing that was so much different, then maybe, maybe. And and and that's all also too, I think what people are also suggesting, and this is also Brylan: Ca c can I push back? Rodney: hold on, real quick, real quick, I'm make one more point. This is why people don't trust Sam with the open AI thing and what they call it closed AI. Because one of the reasons why it's hard to trust the AI that they're building at OpenAI is because there's a lack of transparency. So we know that we can't fully trust what OpenAI is building and what they're doing. Because they closed it. It once was open and everybody had access, can see what was going on, et cetera. So no, you cannot trust OpenAI. It's closed. We don't know what's going on. It's secrecy. There's NDAs, et cetera. So then now you have Dario. He spins off. And he's the safe, he's the he's now the good guy. So I'm no longer the good guy. And and he's doing the good thing. They all all the all the people there are they I believe that the people there believe what they believe. I believe that I believe them. I believe that they believe that, right? But the original sin is not making the stuff open source. That's the original sin because that's where all the trust comes from. We cannot blame if you are up like this. You can't blame the audience for not just taking you at your word. Transparency cures a lot of that. Transparency cures a lot of that. That's why people are very, very big on open source, and they believe that open source has the most power as far as being aligned because everybody can see it. This is one of the also one of the fundamental principles of the blockchain, and one of the fundamental principles of crypto. And as long as anthropic is closed, just like open AI, it's gonna be tricky for people just to buy into. Okay, you guys are the good guys. We get it. You're the good guys. You believe in safety, etc. But because we can't verify it though. We can't verify it. So that's really all that that's all I'm on point to. We can't verify it. So it's like, okay, you believe in it, but I I don't I don't see the difference between I I don't see the difference. It's generally the same, except that Claw will ask me to Upgrade my account more often. So I see why they make more money. Okay. So so outside of that, like I don't see a lot of the difference. They both censor, they both don't allow you to talk about certain things. I don't see that. And I actually see SpaceX AI going to I see them being transparent. I actually think that's a move that Elon's gonna do because he's already doing that with the X algorithm, and I think that he's going to see that and he's gonna say, you know what? Let's make let's be more transparent. He's not doing it yet, probably because of some type of cost reason. But I suspect that's one of his next moves. But go ahead, brother. Brylan: No, I d so so so so what I'm curious about on this topic of transparency is Yeah, how how how is what Dario suggested in terms of embedding third party organizations like Meteor, where their whole Rodney: Mm-hmm. Brylan: mission is literally to understand these models, their threats, and communicate that to the public. And communicate that to the public. Rodney: There's levels, there's levels, there's levels. Brylan: Like how is how is that not transparent? Like so what what what level of transparency is needed? And for who? Rodney: There's levels. There's levels. So for example, when for example, when the recent w open weights were released, I believe I believe it was K I believe it was K three. When they released those, there's no questi nobody has to question anything because it's all Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: there. It's all there. So you so Brylan: But but but but but but let's debunk that though. And this is how you debunk it is if someone w's someone wants to use an open source model, right? They're either hosting it themselves or someone else is hosting it. If someone is help else is hosting it, yes, it may be an open source model, but that person, that company or whatever still set up the server, configure the API, whatever it is. So but but hold up, hold up. Rodney: that's fair, that's fair. That's fair. That that's fair. That's fair. That's Brylan: But hold up, hold up. Rodney: fair. Brylan: Even if you are hosting your own open source model, the reality is you're downloading a file of numbers. How many people understand what the hell to do with those numbers to quote unquote tweak it, get rid of something, make it more or like most people don't. Most people don't. And so I I think I think I think you when Rodney: I understand the dogm I hear you, I hear you, I hear you, I hear you I hear you I I hear you. I'm I'm actually with you. I'm with you. Brylan: like anthropic, SpaceX, like open Rodney: Mm-hmm. Brylan: AI. They're they are necessary abstractions. That's what they do. They abstract all that complexity away because the reality is there's not a distribution of talent that would know exactly what to do to understand, okay, is this model off the rails or not? That's just the reality. Most people don't got that skill set. Rodney: Okay. most okay. Yeah, I ca I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Because for example, the the X algorithm is open source and people can if they want to, they they can go read it and understand. Yeah. No I know, I know. I was getting ready to make Brylan: That's algorithm. I'm I'm saying a machine learning model. Weights weights are literally numbers. Rodney: a I was I was getting ready to make a whole like and and and trust me, I understand I understand that I understand that stuff too. But the the primary point is and also by the way, no human can just read a bunch of numbers and understand it. So there's still it that doesn't take away from the transparency point that I'm that I'm making. They're not being transparent, and this is just how the companies are operating because they're commercial. And I understand that. But at the cost of being commercial, commercial, they're losing the trust that they would otherwise would have. From being open source. So when people are questioning your intentions, what like so for example, people question Sam because he's flipped it over from from open source to closed source. Do we we have or like the reason I don't have to make this argument with Sam is because we already agree Sam can't be trusted. We already agree with this. It we already we already agree with it. It just seemed like for some reason with Dario, we just don't. We we don't. But Sam, we already agree. Okay, you went from open source to closed source, and you went from a open company to a c to a closed company. And so clearly we gotta watch you. But we don't see that with Dario. And what I'm saying is is that with Dario is that is that it's the fact that anthropic fundamentally is not open source, whether or not people have the capabil whether or not look, okay, there's Eight, there's seven billion people on this on this earth, maybe 0.1% or less. Let's just say a million people. A million people. Let's go even lower. Let's say 500,000 people in the world. Let's go even lower. 100,000 people in the world could understand open weights and open models. That still that still matters is in regards to trust. I understand what you're saying. Brylan: What does understanding open way open open models even look like? Rodney: I know, I know, but listen l l like let like for them, what you're trying to say is this. Okay, because people don't understand the nutrition facts, don't put them on the box. It's like, it's like i that's what you're saying. That's what you're saying. Brylan: No, no, no, I'm say I'm I'm I'm I'm saying I'm saying no no no no no I'm not saying do that at all. I'm saying listen to the experts. Have a little bit more trust in the experts. Rodney: Jensen's the Jensen's an expert. Justin's Jensen's an expert. Zuck, Zuck is the expert. Like like these people, let's not act like these people are just so way below. Like these people are experts. And also, like they are experts. We are being selective about who we want to listen to. We're being selective about who we want to listen to for our own reasons. How we we can't say that Jensen is not an expert. We can't say that. He we can't say that. Okay, I'll give you Zuck. I'll give you that. Go ahead. Give I'll give you Zuck. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Dre: But I th I don't think I don't think either one of us is saying well at least I'm not saying that we're not listening to them or that they're not experts. Like their opinions Rodney: I'm talking about what Bryan's saying right now. Dre: but but Brian but Brighton Brylan: Yeah yeah. What what no Dre: didn't say that either though. He he he didn't say that Jensen he didn't say that. I mean those opinions matter as well, but they may not be right. Or they may not be agreed upon. Like that's all. That's all even with Zuck, I'm not saying Zuck is opinion is wrong. Like, yeah, Zuck opinion should be weighted. Y'all the one who's told me, or at least Roddy told me Muse was actually worth checking out. I was like, I don't even think I'm gonna use it, but Brylan: It is, it is. Dre: You said Muse is actually is actually like that. So I think Zuck's opinion matters, but do I agree with it? No, I don't agree with it. I where I do Rodney: Is this a is this it? Is this it? Yeah. yeah. Dre: agree is I agree with Dario. I agree with Elon. I agree with Sam. I agree with the people that are building these frontier models. And yes, n Nvidia does have a an open open source model and they got a bunch of frontier shit they're building as well. So yeah, Jensen's opinion matters. But again, like I I I wouldn't expect Jensen to say let's pace I wouldn't even expect Jensen to say that even if he believed it, personally. So I'm selective on even what I choose to believe that I actually what I think people actually believe when they when shit come out their mouth. I don't chin Jensen is trying to sell chips. Pacing anything, slow down anything is negative to his business. That don't even make sense. That don't even make sense for his business. That don't even make sense for at least David Son. Hold Brylan: Well hold up, hold up, hold. Dre: on, but at least David Sachs, David Sachs can come out and say that. David Sachs has no Rodney: Yeah. Dre: no hat in the race. So I can at least. I can disagree with David, but at least know that David don't really have an as an a a misaligned incentive here because it doesn't really matter. Like, okay, I I don't agree with David, but that's different. I don't expect Jensen to come out and say, yes, we should Rodney: Ha ha ha. Dre: slow down data centers. Yes, we should slow down AI. Yes, this is gonna have a chance of killing people. But hey, can you buy my new chip? I I don't expect him to say that. Come on, bro. I what I expect him to say is exactly what he said, which is be political, say what he said, dance around it. Because he got a different agenda that he's pushing. That's what I believe. Now, does he actually believe that shit about safety and all that behind the scenes? I don't know. I would think he's logical and he's looking at the same shit that Elon is looking at and looking at the same shit that everybody else is. But publicly, I don't expect him to come out and say anything different than that. I don't. So yeah, I hope niggas to different standards. Yeah, it's saying what exactly. Trump gonna say, yeah, yeah, we should slow down. Like, come on, bro. The stock market go to come on. Brylan: Hold up. Or or Trump. Or Trump. He He can't say anything else. Like, it's literally it's literally checkmate. Like he got a war going on. Like Rodney: Okay, so you okay, okay, we've created a situation you Dre: Yeah, come on. Come on. That's that's why on that's why on this Rodney: know. Dre: podcast, that's why this podcast, we should deal with the truth, which is what I've started with, which is do we even agree that pacing should happen? Do we believe look we've had these conversations Rodney: Yes, definitely. Dre: before? Do we believe these models are dangerous? Right? Do we believe everybody should have access to everything? Like, let's just talk about that because like that's the stuff that really it gets to the narrower body of what people really want to know. Everyday, everyday people who are listening wanna know we can't control the headlines. The headlines gonna be what the headlines are. Rodney: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. yeah, I g I guess yeah, but yeah, trust and trust and verify. Dre: Choose to believe what you want, trust and verify. That's the world we live in today. You shouldn't believe anything you just see on the news. Like Rodney: Believe what you wanna believe based on the evidence that you have acquired in in your own gut call. I I I think Dre: Yeah. So your mom did the right thing by hitting you up about that and not just believing that. She did the right thing. You you're the best person probably in her circle to be like, yo, is this shit legit or not? Honestly. Rodney: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I see your point about Jensen. And you know, you Dre: Yeah. Rodney: know, you what you know what Dre's good at? Dre's good at he's good at he's he'll sit back and he'll listen, right? And he'll find the one he'll find the one way to discredit. He just Dre: That Rodney: he he Dre's good at at destroying cr credibility. Dre: No, no. I fuck with J I fuck with Jensen, man. I I'm a I I'm an NVIDIA shareholder. I want NVIDIA to sell more chips. I fuck with NVIDIA. I fuck with him. Yeah, yeah. But I wouldn't again, as Rodney: Okay. so that that that makes you more credible actually. That makes you more credible 'cause you you could Dre: a shareholder, I wouldn't want him to come out and say anything that's gonna impact the stock. I wouldn't. I I just I'm just being honest. I wouldn't want him to say Rodney: Okay. Yeah. Dre: anything. But but but you know, at the same time on the other side of that, I do I expect him to be responsible in what he's saying. And I haven't heard anything from him that's irresponsible necessarily, but I And maybe at some point shit gets serious. We'll see how he responds to that. But I understand why he takes his Rodney: Okay. Okay, that's fair. Dre: position. Rodney: Ha how how about this guys? So we I think we may have like we have maybe like ten more minutes or so or however I guess we can we have but I'll say this. like like I said, I conceded on the pace the frontier. I I can see on that I can see it on that. I believe that the frontier needs to be paced. I believe that. The how Is where things they that's where things get a little I don't know w about that part, but I Dre: Yeah. Yep. Rodney: don't believe the government necessarily needs to be involved in that. That's just my take. I I think that they they can do they can figure that out. and then I would also say that in regards to the the I still stand by the tr the the trust thing. One of the reasons why is because think about who I work for. I work for Brian Johnson, right? And one of the one of the things that is behind Blueprint and Immortals is that put everything out there. His biggest thing is trust, trust, trust, trust, trust. And when you put everything out there, what I'm taking, Dre: Mm. Rodney: you know, what what I'm doing, you know, what I do every day, every what I eat, what I consume, whatever everything, what with surgeries, what whatever it is, he's so transparent that it's made me realize. this is how he, this is why he's so big on trust. And I see why people trust us because we, yeah, maybe people are not looking at the the supply chain that we have meticulously created to inspect all these different ingredients, but they just trust Brian. Okay, what's what's Brian taking? What what's Dre: Yeah. Rodney: Brian doing? That's what a lot of people want to know. I want to take what Brian's taking. So there's a level Dre: Mm. Rodney: of trust there that comes with transparency, and I can see the value in that. So when you have companies, whether it's anthropic or whether it's SpaceX AI or whether it's OpenAI, and you are holding back any part of the sausage, it that you're you're leaving some trust on the table. That's just a trade-off. I'm not saying you have to, you don't have to be fully transparent. You don't have to be, but you're leaving some trust on the table. When you don't share it all. But again, that may not be in the corporate interest to do so. We might even say they reasonably have given enough to be trusted within reason. But somebody could potentially say, hey, you know, so That's where I think some some of the skepticism is. I also bel I also agree with Bryan on the hate part. There is there is a hate campaign on Dario to some extent that I've started to see pick up. which is what I predicted. I pred I predicted I predicted that. I I predicted that. Let I I I so you gotta you had to give me that. I I you can't you can you you Brylan: That's I don't but this is the thing, I don't know if that's a prediction I wanna make. Like I'm gonna be a bigger hater a year from now. Like that's not that's not what that's not no. Rodney: No, no, no. No, I no, no, no, no. I made a prediction that it that Dario and Topic would start to be looked at a little bit differently. And and and we we're starting to see that. We're starting to see that. Even from the highest levels and multiple different levels. But I think these models are dangerous to a s to a certain extent. I do believe, and people may not agree with me on this, that. You should have a license. I I think that they should give us very high capabilities. If they start getting really concerned at consumer level, then they should just say, you know what? This level of intelligence is going to require an ID. And I know that will create so much backlash. But there, I in my opinion, I do believe that if you're coming out there and telling everybody it's dangerous, it's kind of difficult to. justify just allowing someone to put a credit card in and not have to prove anything about who they are. It's it's you're simultaneously it's it's it's a little odd a bit. And I just want them to with their whatever they're speaking to align with that on the product so that maybe the average everyday person can trust it more because what I cause what I want to see in the world is I want to see more trust and empowerment on AI. I want to see people more excited about it and more willing to use it. And I do not want to come across people saying, hey, you know what? I try not to use that. I try not to I try not to be on that. Nah, like the water, I I don't I don't heard too many people talk about the water. Nah, nah, the water, I w what's going on with that? I don't want to do that. you work with AI. I just don't know. I don't I don't I don't want it to be cool to be against what's gonna basically make people's lives easier in the future. Brylan: What I would say to that is I think where the challenge lies is it's not a corporate problem to solve. It's going to end up being a government social problem to solve. Because the reality is like in our capitalistic society, companies are not incentivized to give a fuck about like trying to tell this narrative. That AI is good for you and sh and should be trusting you. Because like theoretically, if these capabilities continue to improve to the point where you can just drop an agent into your company's, have at have whatever budget of compute and it could replace it, like, cool, save, save, save me some money. But I think it's going to be the role of these governments, like our government and our politicians, to be able to tell a better narrative. around if the worst case scenario does happen, what does security look like? Is there a plan in terms of like, okay, if it is a world where there's mass employ unemployment, how have we already started to think about this from a social standpoint, locally, at a state level, nationally, like right? And and I just think that's that that's just a conversation that companies aren't positioned to have or should be dictating, right? 'Cause we're not electing them to handle those type of issues. So Rodney: Yeah. Well well that Dre: But that's why it but that's why they Rodney: that that part. Dre: gotta c that's why they have to collaborate though. Right? Again, it goes back to collaboration to me. Like it's not about regulation or some people call it oversight. There just needs to be collaboration. I think that needs to be the agreement. Is it you can't be building the technology that we all agree is this powerful, this important, and you not have the government involved. Show me another framework where that exists. It just doesn't. Rodney: How do you get politicians to to for example? How do you get a can you can you get a Bernie to change his tune? Or is he just can you invite him to a lab and say, hey Bernie, come check out our labs? Come check out our labs. Let me sh let's show you a few things. You're invited to come at any time. Like what do you do exactly outside of just putting money in politicians' pockets? Like what what exactly do you do to because I think that The the the Brian, what I would say to your comment though, and I agree with Dre, but Brian, what I would say to your comment is I you it has they should what Dre said, it has to be both. It can't just be the government is responsible. Like it ha it it can't just be the government's responsible for the narrative and then we just like we just build like it can't just be that. It it has to be that they take responsibility for how they talk about their products and their technology. in public because I think I think a lot of these guys are not used to being having megaphones and they talk that way. Like you I they they they they talk that way. Dre: So are you are are you asking for s are you asking for a censorship? That's what it sounds like. Rodney: No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying that they need to understand that they're not just talking to the average Silicon Valley individual that may be able to put into context what they're saying. So I'm saying that their messaging is coming off different to America, and it may be impending, it may be messing up their own goals. So Dario could be saying. This could this this could potentially be hurt us all. And then when it becomes hard to make a data center, and then now they gotta get a contract in Australia. It's it's like part of why you might have to get a contract in Australia is because the narrative is so bad here. And that may be due to some of the things that you are saying as an expert and at this point, a leader, then you know, not gonna say world leader, but you know what I mean, like a very high profile leader. You might not be realizing how he might not be realizing the the that he's no longer just the scientist in the lab that nobody listens to, that Sam just build that shit, man. Don't don't like he may not be you're not that guy no more. You are the founder and CEO of Anthropic. And what you say, people hang on to each word. And if you make it seem like it's very dangerous and very evil, it because the problem is when you talk about dangerous. And extinction, people are and then and then also people start looking at how much money you make because they already don't like billionaires. In the in the world we live in right now, people are already not liking the billionaire part. So then you're also talking about you're in tech too and you're a billionaire. Plus, you're also building it's like, bro, you gotta watch what you say, man. You have to watch what you say and be more be more just just be smarter about what you say. Yeah, I I know we want people to be authentic and all this stuff like that, but Watch what you say. Otherwise it will make it hard for politicians because will politicians really want to go collaborate if they feel like that is going against like that will cost them votes. If they feel if if if if politicians are feeling like, you know what? Man, my base does not like tech billionaires. And they also don't like this water situation, even if it water is not true, but they but people believe it's true, will politicians Work to tr change that? Or will they say, you know what? I can't, I can't collaborate with them because I don't want to seem like I'm with the enemy is per se. And that's the world we live in, because it's very divisive right now, especially with the type of content, the TikTok clip culture. YouTube, Shorts, Instagram, Real Culture. It we live in a more, it's very divisive. Everything's so divisive. And so it seems like the collaboration part, I would agree with Dre, but I'm I'm I'm seeing some incentives that might be difficult with the way that they talk to the people. When they come online, they talk and they say these things, and they get picked up by all the major news stations. And then you have like I s like I said, you have Kamala Harris popping out. No shade, but she doesn't know what she's talking about. She's trying to explain it in a dumbed down way, but she barely knows what she's talking about. But she feels the need to speak on it because Barack came out and said, Hey, I think Democrats should be talking about AI. But he came out and said that because of the they all are w reacting and responding to what the tech industry is saying about AI is what I'm getting at. And if the narratives are of doom and gloom, then you're not making it easy. You're you're you're For the politician to speak about it in a positive way without them looking like they're on the wrong side of things. Dre: That's it. I guess we can wrap it up there, yeah. Rodney: Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. all right. See y'all next Dre: All right, we'll catch y'all on the next one. Rodney: one. Brylan: yeah.