Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #290 Guest Host Patrick Pursley with Carl Williams

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#290 Guest Host Patrick Pursley with Carl Williams · Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years,
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Speaker 1: hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories. Sadly, with
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Speaker 1: the state of our criminal legal system, we're left with
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Speaker 1: far more cases than I can possibly handle alone. So
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Speaker 1: I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases,
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Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
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Speaker 1: only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
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Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.
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Speaker 2: In the early morning hours of January thirteenth, nineteen ninety four,
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Speaker 2: Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were in Chicago
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Speaker 2: driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a gas station
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Speaker 2: so the two men could use the restroom. When Fitch
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Speaker 2: walked back to the car, he saw two men hijacking it,
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Speaker 2: one driving and another in the back with Wilson and Lewis.
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Speaker 2: Fitch ran across the street and called the police to
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Speaker 2: report the car jacket. Later that day, the frozen bodies
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Speaker 2: of twenty three year old Illinois state basketball star Wars
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Speaker 2: Reginald Wilson, and his twenty year old girlfriend, Felicia Lewis,
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Speaker 2: were discovered in a large garbage band in Chicago. Both
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Speaker 2: had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was found
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Speaker 2: idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two of
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Speaker 2: the carjackers were identified as Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlet.
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Speaker 2: They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in the crime.
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Speaker 2: They also named three more accomplices, including a guy named Carl.
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Speaker 2: Through their investigation, the police were led.
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Speaker 3: To Carl Williams.
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Speaker 2: The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl Williams wasn't involved
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Speaker 2: and there was no physical evidence linking him to the
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Speaker 2: carjacking and murders, but with a forced false confession, Carl
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Speaker 2: Williams was found guilty of a crime he did not
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Speaker 2: commit and was sentenced to natural life in prison. This
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Speaker 2: is wrongful conviction. My name is Patrick Persley, also known
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Speaker 2: as Free Patrick Pursley. I was previously a guest on
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Speaker 2: wrongful conviction as an axignery, but today I'm honored to
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Speaker 2: be your guest host. It is a true privilege. We'll
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Speaker 2: be talking to two people two Carl's actually attorney Carl Leonard,
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Speaker 2: and my good friend and brother Karl Williams. This interview
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Speaker 2: was recorded in April twenty twenty two. But Karl and
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Speaker 2: I have known each other for a long time. We
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Speaker 2: were at Staville Prison together where we both spent countless
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Speaker 2: hours in the law library. We probably did what how
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Speaker 2: many years you think we did together?
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Speaker 3: Oh man, at least how many years you was in Stateville?
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Speaker 2: Just twenty three?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just twenty three, and then I was there
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Speaker 3: about twenty three years, So at least twenty twenty three year.
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Speaker 2: A couple decades.
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Speaker 3: Yes, that's what you.
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Speaker 2: Hail from Cook County, Chicago.
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Speaker 3: I do rais Chicago born and raised.
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Speaker 2: What's that time?
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Speaker 3: What they call the lower end?
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Speaker 2: The low end got hell of a rep.
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Speaker 3: The low end definitely has a hell of a rep.
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Speaker 3: But I think that the lower end gets an unfair rep.
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Speaker 2: Well, well I don't even think it exists no more.
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Speaker 2: It's so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down.
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Speaker 3: Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit
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Speaker 3: and the people are still in that community, serving that
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Speaker 3: community in a more productive and positive ways.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like
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Speaker 2: you catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a
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Speaker 2: very heavy story, right, it's a very so you had
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Speaker 2: to carry this. Can you like start us like at
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Speaker 2: the beginning, what like what took place?
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Speaker 3: So me growing up in that community, it was a
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Speaker 3: community like I said that I love, that, I value
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Speaker 3: that I appreciate, and at the same time, I also
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Speaker 3: made some wrong decisions in that community. I come from
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Speaker 3: street hustling, which allowed me to be able to gain
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Speaker 3: material wealth. And you know how this operate in those communities.
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Speaker 2: You gotta eat very true.
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Speaker 3: It brings it brings a long attention. No society good
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Speaker 3: in terms of girls and things. Oh we're talking about
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Speaker 3: starting from the age of like fifteen years old. And
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Speaker 3: what it does is it brings you a ton of attention.
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Speaker 3: Everybody knows your name, everybody wants to be connected to you.
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Speaker 2: A few months after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime
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Speaker 2: happened in his neighborhood. Here's attorney Carl Leonard who worked
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Speaker 2: on Carl's case.
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Speaker 4: The evidence that the state collected was that there was
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Speaker 4: carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. To individuals
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Speaker 4: were kidnapped during the carjack, brought to another location. The
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Speaker 4: woman was actually assaulted, and both of them ended up
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Speaker 4: murdered and in a dumpster, and there were some items
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Speaker 4: that were stolen from the vehicle, and the state alleged
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Speaker 4: that those items were divvied up among the offenders.
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Speaker 2: The other person who had been in the car with
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Speaker 2: the victims saw the carjacking and called the police. The
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Speaker 2: police tracked down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested
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Speaker 2: two people running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin,
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Speaker 2: who were both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and
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Speaker 2: Hamlin then provided the police with three more names, so
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Speaker 2: Rhice Johnson, Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They
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Speaker 2: didn't give his last name, just Carl. It's really rare
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Speaker 2: to have this mini co defendants and it's a lot
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Speaker 2: to sort through, right.
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Speaker 4: This is a case that involves a lot of offenders
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Speaker 4: and the police are obviously investigating. Their sort of big
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Speaker 4: break is when they find the vehicle, which they had
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Speaker 4: brought to a south suburb side Chicago, and that's how
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Speaker 4: they made the initial arrests of who would become some
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Speaker 4: of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with them who
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Speaker 4: does not end up becoming a co defendant, but who
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Speaker 4: is the first one to sort of start talking and
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Speaker 4: they he just starts saying names of people who were involved,
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Speaker 4: gives the first name Carl. They decide that Carl Williams
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Speaker 4: is the car that this person's referring to the.
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Speaker 3: Name Carl came up being involved in his brutal cry.
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Speaker 3: So with that name be coming up, then who was
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Speaker 3: the most popular Carl in that area at that time?
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Speaker 3: It was me based off the fact of the street
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Speaker 3: hustling and the things that brought me the unworted attention. Now,
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Speaker 3: the description that they was given of this Carl was six'
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Speaker 3: one to sixty three with your clow hair, light skinned,
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Speaker 3: full beard. I mean I was just a young kid
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Speaker 3: who barely can still grow.
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Speaker 2: A beard to this day, about five to seven.
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Speaker 3: I mean, well not quite five seven, but I mean
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Speaker 3: I'm about five.
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Speaker 2: Right, But you don't match the description skin tone or
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Speaker 2: height or.
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Speaker 3: I was five to seven at that time, stocky, bild,
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Speaker 3: short hair, never had long hair. The description definitely didn't
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Speaker 3: fit me.
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Speaker 2: The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells,
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Speaker 2: Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the
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Speaker 2: door told the police that Karl was upstairs. The police
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Speaker 2: entered the home and immediately got rough.
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Speaker 3: With him, taking me and throwing me onto the floor,
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Speaker 3: slamming me onto the floor, grabbing me by the neck,
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Speaker 3: putting the gun to my head, threatening to shoot me
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Speaker 3: and to kill me if I move.
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Speaker 2: A lot of people don't really realize how like the
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Speaker 2: tailor to Americas, like the treatment in the door.
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Speaker 3: They absolutely so.
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Speaker 2: It is so camped. The violations as far as what
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Speaker 2: they would call civil rights violations. Corrects, like we basically
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Speaker 2: have no civil rights and at all.
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Speaker 3: When you're at that point and feeling that and understanding
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Speaker 3: it feels like it takes some of your power away.
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Speaker 2: You're powerless in that moment.
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Speaker 3: Correct. And they take me downstairs and I have on
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Speaker 3: nothing but my underwear, no other clothes on whatsoever. And
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Speaker 3: I'm study consistently asking and what's going on. The people
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Speaker 3: in the house are asking and what's going on. They
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Speaker 3: take me out in handcuffs. Now it's January, before you
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Speaker 3: know how cold Chicago could be. To go outside and
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Speaker 3: to step outside in the code.
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Speaker 2: It's a form of torture of itself.
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Speaker 3: But when you think about it today, is it was
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Speaker 3: a deliberate.
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Speaker 2: Process of course.
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Speaker 3: So I ask you the trauma that you have already
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Speaker 3: experienced from from the moment that they into the house
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Speaker 3: to accuse you of a crime that you didn't commit.
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Speaker 3: So the person they take me outside with the handcuffs
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Speaker 3: on and just I guess for him to identify me.
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Speaker 3: Now they're saying that he's identifying me, and I need
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Speaker 3: to go down to the station. And this is where
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Speaker 3: the rest of the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies,
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Speaker 3: you can feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety
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Speaker 3: because of what just happened to you. So there's still
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Speaker 3: trauma that's continuing to follow you and walk with you
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Speaker 3: through the same path that they're taking you on, which
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Speaker 3: is a brutal path. So in them presenting you in
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Speaker 3: that way, having you handcuff holding you by your arm
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Speaker 3: and just jaking open the door and pushing you there
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Speaker 3: and say and the person is it's such a stand.
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Speaker 3: You know this person at least like nah, And they
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Speaker 3: all go and when you go to every room and
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Speaker 3: they say no, it's like, oh man, I've told you,
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Speaker 3: but you don't understand that at the time. They put
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Speaker 3: you back in that room and you're you know, and
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Speaker 3: you're like, oh man, you know that was that? That
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Speaker 3: was it? But then our star to go by, or
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Speaker 3: you don't know how much time going by because there's
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Speaker 3: no clock, and you're like, why am I still here?
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Speaker 3: Then you see one of your co defenders come to you.
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Speaker 3: They bring him back to you, and he still says no,
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Speaker 3: But then they bring him back within the thirty minute
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Speaker 3: or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying,
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Speaker 3: and you know, and and look what's happened to him?
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Speaker 3: And then he says, They ask him again and he says, yeah.
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Speaker 3: Now you you know it's it's a concern and a worry.
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Speaker 2: Is that starting to lose your grasp on reality?
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Speaker 3: And imagine I couldn't explain to you that feeling.
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Speaker 2: Now, can we just be clear, because it's not it's torture.
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Speaker 2: It's the breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche.
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Speaker 3: And I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that,
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Speaker 3: because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from
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Speaker 3: the mental torture that you put someone and tonam Obay through.
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Speaker 3: It's no different from torture that you put someone through
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Speaker 3: in Vietnam. So you're absolutely right because the tactics are.
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Speaker 2: The same, you know, the objectives are the same.
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Speaker 3: The objectives are definitely the same, just different people.
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Speaker 2: And the facts. The facts can just be collateral damage.
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Speaker 2: The facts are unfortunately at the time.
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Speaker 3: The purpose is to be able to find a person,
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Speaker 3: to accuse them and charge them with the crime. So
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Speaker 3: so your day can be over with.
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Speaker 2: I just want to remind you here, Carl is only
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Speaker 2: seventeen years old at the time when all this is
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Speaker 2: going down. The police interrogate him all day, like ten
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Speaker 2: or twelve hours straight trying to get him to confess.
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Speaker 3: So just going through that process hours on in, hours
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Speaker 3: on in.
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Speaker 2: To where right you just want to end it.
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Speaker 3: It's just like, hey, you know what, well, we want
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Speaker 3: you to sign this. If you don't, there in this
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Speaker 3: process will happen again. I couldn't tell you of the
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Speaker 3: fear that I probably that I felt at that time.
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's a very sterile picture, but the
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Speaker 2: reality is those interrogation rooms are full of blood, spit urine.
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Speaker 2: It is they are final.
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Speaker 3: Language on the walls saying hey the.
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Speaker 2: Right, they're hot, they're you know. They are literally stuffed
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Speaker 2: with the energy of the people that were in there
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Speaker 2: just a few moments before you and you can end
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Speaker 2: this process if you signed this statement.
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Speaker 3: As naive as I was. I did think that.
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Speaker 2: The sense of relief, what's their sense of relief? Though
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Speaker 2: after the flame.
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Speaker 3: I think that some of my anxiety kind of went
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Speaker 3: away because of I didn't see them anymore, not knowing
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Speaker 3: that this has this affected my entire life.
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Speaker 2: At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant state's attorney Nicholas Grapsaz
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Speaker 2: wrote a handwritten confession for Carl. The statement said that
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Speaker 2: he was in Anthony Brown's car when Carl and four
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Speaker 2: other co defendants saw the victim Chevy Blazer at the
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Speaker 2: gas station and then decided to hijacket, strip it and
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Speaker 2: sell the parts and split the money. The statement said
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Speaker 2: that Karl was on the lookout while the hijacking took place,
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Speaker 2: and that he was in Brown's car watching while Brown
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Speaker 2: raped Forelicia Lewis. They then allegedly returned Lewis to the
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Speaker 2: blazer and demanded money. The statement said that afterwards all
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Speaker 2: five co defendants met up and Scott Chambers told them
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Speaker 2: they shot the victims and then Carl received thirty dollars
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Speaker 2: as a share of the hijacking money. After being subject
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Speaker 2: to torture and relentless pressure here from the police, Carl
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Speaker 2: Williams signed this false confession sealing his faith.
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Speaker 3: During that time, I was still in a state of confusion.
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Speaker 3: I was still very hurt. I was also struggling in
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Speaker 3: terms of defending myself here. I was, you know, early on,
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Speaker 3: you're giving a PD who's not putting forth an effort
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Speaker 3: to be able to actually highlight your innocence, but just
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Speaker 3: shuffle you along to people to the next case. I
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Speaker 3: was still you know, you hear stuff like this when
14:37
Speaker 3: the judge is a law judge, and this judge will
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Speaker 3: see right through the police's nonsense and then they'll bring
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Speaker 3: your relief. Well, I actually hope that would be for me.
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Speaker 2: That hurts that that's like the loss of innocence right there,
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Speaker 2: when we learn of what a freaking fairy tale that
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Speaker 2: one is right.
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Speaker 3: Correct until and listen, let me go back just a
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Speaker 3: little bit. The first time when I'm arraigned in front
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Speaker 3: of the judge, my co defendants says still that I
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Speaker 3: wasn't involved in the case, that they have the wrong person.
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Speaker 2: This is a raiment.
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Speaker 3: Yes, you would think that at some point there was
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Speaker 3: want to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme.
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Speaker 2: The fair Belt right now.
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Speaker 3: But I'm things. I continued to move forward at a
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Speaker 3: very rapid, fast paced and.
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Speaker 2: No one cares. So what actual evidence like was would
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Speaker 2: what evidence did the state present? And what's your side?
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Speaker 3: The statement? That's it? No co defendants to come testify.
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Speaker 3: No one testify against me. The co defendant who decided
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Speaker 3: to testify against another, the co defendant refused to testify
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Speaker 3: against me because he said to them that you don't
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Speaker 3: know I was innocent and wasn't involved in the case.
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Speaker 2: As a practice in jail house lawyer for twenty three
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Speaker 2: years since stay Field, I've seen this way too much.
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Speaker 2: Public defenders are often referred to in prison as public
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Speaker 2: pretenders because they often dropped the ball. It happens more
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Speaker 2: often than the general public has any idea of. And
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Speaker 2: in this case, the public defender failed to get any
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Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence to help free his client.
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Speaker 3: The lawyer never went to witnesses. So that was a
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Speaker 3: witness in the case. And at that time, who was
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Speaker 3: coming to court for me and who was daring the
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Speaker 3: audience in terms of my alibi every time.
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Speaker 2: I had a court date, and they just don't talk
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Speaker 2: to him.
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Speaker 3: And they never talked, and they never spoke to him.
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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, we'll get I've seen it. I trust me,
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Speaker 2: I've seen it. As a jail house lawyer, you already
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Speaker 2: know right that you know, not knocking lawyers.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 2: However, when we're sitting inside and we're filing these complaints
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Speaker 2: to the Attorney Registration Disciplinary Commission, another lawyer answers them right,
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Speaker 2: And basically all these claims are basically all same as
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Speaker 2: far as failures to reach out to get witnesses, failure
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Speaker 2: to investigate, failures to secure evidence right maybe video surveillance
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Speaker 2: to whatever, failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence.
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Speaker 2: But here it is all a gap for you is
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Speaker 2: a confession. You would think that he might have stepped
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Speaker 2: up and did more.
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Speaker 3: No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect me to
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Speaker 3: the crime whatsoever.
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Speaker 2: The jury deliberated for several days and eventually came to
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Speaker 2: the conclusion that Carl Williams was guilty a first degree murder.
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Speaker 4: Carl was convicted because of his you know, the so
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Speaker 4: called confession, the statement that was the only evidence. And
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Speaker 4: I think the police knew that they didn't have any evidence.
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Speaker 4: That's why they beat you.
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Speaker 3: That's why they.
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Speaker 1: Used all that.
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Speaker 4: They need something. The only way they're closing this case
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Speaker 4: against Carl Williams is if you confess, So they made
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Speaker 4: sure to get a confession, correct, That's how they you convicted.
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Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean from the second I met Carl,
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Speaker 4: I knew he's innocent. I still believe he's innocent, no
18:05
Speaker 4: doubt about it.
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Speaker 2: The way I kind of like look at is like
18:08
Speaker 2: you know, there's Zamboni machine that the thing, right, it's
18:12
Speaker 2: like a slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right,
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Speaker 2: And you're just getting to this process where you know
18:19
Speaker 2: you're being run over by the system and you can't
18:22
Speaker 2: do it. You just can't do anything about it because
18:25
Speaker 2: a lot of times if the council does not do
18:27
Speaker 2: the work, the judge does not sue a sponte on
18:30
Speaker 2: his own. Russ, Hey, I call Radishes, right. The prosecutor
18:36
Speaker 2: is just here for the slam dunk, right, So now
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Speaker 2: you you get found guilty. What is this like for myself?
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Speaker 2: I just I don't even remember how I got back
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Speaker 2: to my decked What is your processing?
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Speaker 3: I cried the entire way. I can remember walking back
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Speaker 3: and asking them to speak to a counselor because my
19:00
Speaker 3: mind couldn't function. My mind couldn't tell you, I couldn't
19:04
Speaker 3: even figure out where I was at at the time.
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Speaker 3: And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking
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Speaker 3: about my young self at that time trying to walk
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Speaker 3: through that tunnel.
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Speaker 2: And you know, you can't protect that.
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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. And you walk through that
19:19
Speaker 3: tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself, they just
19:23
Speaker 3: took my life. How could you reconcile with with that?
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Speaker 3: When you when you believed in something, you believed in
19:32
Speaker 3: something more importantly that you trusted in the process, and
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Speaker 3: then the process fails you. I sat by myself on
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Speaker 3: that deck. I can remember just being in a room
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Speaker 3: for days and people coming to check on me because
19:46
Speaker 3: they was afraid that, hey, you know, try to harm himself.
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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately immediately my mom.
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Speaker 3: You know, my mom. May she rest in peace now,
20:02
Speaker 3: you know. She passed away this year from COVID on
20:06
Speaker 3: January the second. I can remember her calling one of
20:09
Speaker 3: my friends who was on that deck with me, and
20:12
Speaker 3: he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her.
20:15
Speaker 3: And I called her and she says, you know, I
20:19
Speaker 3: can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken.
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Speaker 3: But we need to get focused real quick. What is
20:27
Speaker 3: it that we need to do to fight for your life.
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Speaker 3: I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's
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Speaker 3: where it all began for me. From nineteen ninety four,
20:40
Speaker 3: I never stopped writing letters asking for help. I've probably
20:46
Speaker 3: sent out over four thousand letters.
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Speaker 2: Good God, I actually sent so many letters out.
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Speaker 3: To send one hundred letters out in the bars.
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Speaker 2: Free for those who don't know, is free for those
20:59
Speaker 2: that don't know. Stateville Prison lost a lawsuit in part of
21:03
Speaker 2: an agreement was they had to send all of our
21:07
Speaker 2: legal mail out and.
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Speaker 3: We would take full of vengel. I would put them
21:10
Speaker 3: in colorful envelopes. I would put them in peppermint looking envelopes,
21:14
Speaker 3: pink envelopes, green envelopes, just to make them try to
21:18
Speaker 3: stand out. And you name them. I wrote them. I said,
21:21
Speaker 3: do you know do you know anyone who would be
21:25
Speaker 3: interested in looking into a role for conviction. I've written
21:28
Speaker 3: many letters, I've written many people. And Mike responded, and
21:34
Speaker 3: that changed the narrative for me.
21:36
Speaker 2: That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scalar, who took on
21:40
Speaker 2: the case pro bono on twenty oh seven. Before Mike
21:43
Speaker 2: got involved in the case. Carl had already filed two
21:46
Speaker 2: postconviction petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two
21:52
Speaker 2: more petitions.
21:53
Speaker 3: He started working on the case and he said, Carl,
21:55
Speaker 3: I believe you're innocent, but this is going to be
21:58
Speaker 3: an upheel battle.
22:00
Speaker 2: I just want to interject, right, because this is this
22:02
Speaker 2: is the turnaround, right, So you're thrown down this deep
22:09
Speaker 2: dark well, right, that's basically what it is. It's like
22:13
Speaker 2: a state Bville. It's like a little like a little hell,
22:17
Speaker 2: and time is frozen.
22:19
Speaker 3: Right.
22:19
Speaker 2: You have the same people reciting the same rap song
22:22
Speaker 2: that they reciting when they got locked up, right, So
22:25
Speaker 2: you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and
22:28
Speaker 2: everything is going against you to prevent you from getting
22:31
Speaker 2: to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any
22:36
Speaker 2: piece to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes
22:42
Speaker 2: because you see other people getting out, right, So me
22:46
Speaker 2: and you we got your witness several people, so that
22:51
Speaker 2: gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I
22:55
Speaker 2: really feel like the exhilaration. Like one day we're going
22:59
Speaker 2: to child Hall and talking to Babystone. Right next day
23:03
Speaker 2: Babystone is out. The next day Babystone is on sixty minutes.
23:07
Speaker 2: That is a hell of a message to us.
23:11
Speaker 3: It is, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive
23:16
Speaker 3: in terms of your spirit, your energy, and your peace,
23:20
Speaker 3: and your effort to continue to push for and drive
23:23
Speaker 3: the narrative of your innocence.
23:24
Speaker 2: And when we get the lawyers right, because we know
23:27
Speaker 2: pro say gets no play. Once we get the lawyers right,
23:32
Speaker 2: it gives us such a shot in the arm. I
23:38
Speaker 2: look at it very much like I sent my words
23:42
Speaker 2: out to fight for me, and over time, other people
23:47
Speaker 2: added their words to fight for.
23:48
Speaker 4: Me, and.
23:51
Speaker 2: Soon it becomes an undeniable, undeniable force, and it literally
23:58
Speaker 2: sets us free.
24:05
Speaker 4: Long before I was ever even involved, Mike had done
24:09
Speaker 4: a ton of investigation and gotten affidavits from the co
24:13
Speaker 4: defendants from a number of people attesting to Carl's innocence. Meanwhile,
24:19
Speaker 4: there's a Supreme Court case called Miller versus Alabama that
24:22
Speaker 4: was decided which talks about how it can be unconstitutional
24:27
Speaker 4: to give life sentences or de facto life sentences to juveniles.
24:32
Speaker 4: Carl falls into that category, so they file another post
24:34
Speaker 4: conviction petition raising that issue separately. The judge dismissed both
24:40
Speaker 4: of them and went up on appeal and Mike and
24:43
Speaker 4: his team won the appeal sent it back to the
24:46
Speaker 4: trial court to have a hearing on these issues. That's
24:50
Speaker 4: the point at which I got involved, was getting ready
24:53
Speaker 4: to have that hearing.
24:55
Speaker 2: Und leg popular opinion is very weighty on lawyers as
25:01
Speaker 2: far as you know, a lot of people give you
25:04
Speaker 2: like jeers for helping prisoners. As far as yourself and
25:07
Speaker 2: going into this process, what were some of the challenges.
25:11
Speaker 4: I think one of the hardest parts about these cases
25:13
Speaker 4: in general is just how old they are, and like,
25:17
Speaker 4: it's terrible for you guys who were in prison for
25:20
Speaker 4: what was it, twenty four years, twenty six years, but
25:23
Speaker 4: during that time, memories fade, witnesses die, witnesses move, and
25:28
Speaker 4: so we're trying to piece back together something that happened
25:32
Speaker 4: a very long time ago, involving people who have moved
25:35
Speaker 4: on with their lives and want nothing to do with you.
25:38
Speaker 4: So I think that tends to be one of the
25:39
Speaker 4: bigger challenges with all of these cases is that we're
25:43
Speaker 4: not the place. We can't show up with a badge
25:44
Speaker 4: and say you need to talk to us, So you're
25:48
Speaker 4: just trying to convince people that you're worth their time.
25:51
Speaker 4: So I think just the passage of time and the
25:55
Speaker 4: lack of any real power makes it really hard to
25:59
Speaker 4: sort of reinvestigate these types of cases. Our goal is
26:04
Speaker 4: to get Carl Holme, and the way we were able
26:07
Speaker 4: to get him home the quickest was to reach an
26:11
Speaker 4: agreement with the state about the Miller claim the juvenile
26:17
Speaker 4: life without parole claim. Agreed to a sentence, and we
26:20
Speaker 4: did a sentencing hearing instead of doing an evidentiary hearing,
26:23
Speaker 4: and convinced the judge to impose a sentence that got
26:27
Speaker 4: Carl Holm pretty quickly after that.
26:30
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't really realize how long it
26:34
Speaker 2: takes for a post conviction petition to matriculate through the
26:38
Speaker 2: circuit courts. The whole process in this case was definitely
26:43
Speaker 2: not quick. In twenty twelve, and appellate court ruled that
26:46
Speaker 2: he was entitled to a new evidentiary hearing and if
26:49
Speaker 2: he were denied a new trial after that, he should
26:52
Speaker 2: at least deserve a new sentence based on the president
26:56
Speaker 2: set by Miller versus Alabama.
26:58
Speaker 3: It always was one thing after another and saying, oh, well,
27:04
Speaker 3: we're looking, we're waiting on these documents, or I didn't
27:07
Speaker 3: read this or she would give me these long continuances.
27:09
Speaker 3: So it went on and on and on, and it
27:11
Speaker 3: dragged out from November of twenty twelve all the way
27:16
Speaker 3: to August of twenty twenty.
27:19
Speaker 2: Now this one one ten years. Do you see or
27:22
Speaker 2: do you believe that this using time as a weapon.
27:27
Speaker 3: It is a household it's being used as a weapon
27:31
Speaker 3: because it wears you. Now imagine the psychological effects that
27:34
Speaker 3: that has upon you. You're going to court or you're
27:37
Speaker 3: having a court date, and then it's another continuous.
27:40
Speaker 4: I think thinking about how much time went by there,
27:43
Speaker 4: and I think you're absolutely right that there is a
27:45
Speaker 4: strategic reason for the state to delay things and things
27:48
Speaker 4: like that. I think also, and this is much more depressing,
27:52
Speaker 4: is that the delays I don't think are necessarily because
27:57
Speaker 4: this is the way we're going to win the case.
27:59
Speaker 4: I think a lot of the times delays are you
28:02
Speaker 4: guys don't matter.
28:03
Speaker 3: And it's very true.
28:04
Speaker 4: There are more important things for these judges to be
28:06
Speaker 4: working on. There's more important things for the prosecutors to
28:09
Speaker 4: be working on. These guys were convicted, they don't matter.
28:13
Speaker 2: Kyle was released from prison in twenty twenty, but not
28:15
Speaker 2: based on his innocence, but because of the new sentence
28:18
Speaker 2: that was imposed, it's a chance to get out, but
28:23
Speaker 2: it also means you won't officially be exonerated, and that's
28:26
Speaker 2: a very heavy cross to carry for someone who's actually innocent.
28:30
Speaker 3: For me, it was very bittersweet. It's something that I
28:35
Speaker 3: was like, you know, I didn't want to do, but
28:40
Speaker 3: was forced to do. I wasn't gonna die in somebody's prison.
28:45
Speaker 3: My mom was older. I lost the son.
28:49
Speaker 4: It's one of the things that I that I kicked
28:53
Speaker 4: myself over and have gone back over if there's anything
28:55
Speaker 4: I could have done to make this go faster. Because
28:58
Speaker 4: your son died right before you got out, I've gone
29:02
Speaker 4: back over it and wondered, is there any place I
29:05
Speaker 4: could have made this go a month faster or something
29:08
Speaker 4: like that. I am beyond grateful that you were home
29:13
Speaker 4: to be with your mom, but your the fact that
29:16
Speaker 4: your son died right before you got out, and.
29:19
Speaker 3: I want to just make this clear, not that he
29:22
Speaker 3: died as if he died from natural causes, he was
29:25
Speaker 3: murdered in broad daylight.
29:28
Speaker 2: I need to touch on this. How many times did
29:32
Speaker 2: you see guys our age lose sons to the streets
29:38
Speaker 2: while we were inside.
29:40
Speaker 3: Oh man, I lost count I probably I know about
29:44
Speaker 3: forty people who's probably lost the son.
29:47
Speaker 2: The father's not there, were locked up, right. The mother
29:51
Speaker 2: is doing her best.
29:52
Speaker 3: Is putting the culture effort, but.
29:55
Speaker 2: The culture is drawing them out. The culture is drawing
29:58
Speaker 2: them out.
29:59
Speaker 3: That is very true. The culture is definitely drawing them out,
30:03
Speaker 3: reshaping their frame of mind, changing their free features. It's
30:06
Speaker 3: really hard for them to give grass, absolutely.
30:11
Speaker 2: Because it's like speaking a foreign language.
30:15
Speaker 3: It is. And you're still trying to be a father
30:17
Speaker 3: and a parent from from prison, which you know you
30:22
Speaker 3: wish there was a such thing.
30:23
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I literally like hashtag Confessions of a
30:27
Speaker 2: jail Daddy. It's an oxymoron. You're in jail. You can
30:30
Speaker 2: write all the letters and all the money, but the
30:32
Speaker 2: culture is still going to get a hold to our children.
30:36
Speaker 3: It is. But in returning back into society, you know,
30:40
Speaker 3: I've tooken every educational course that I possibly could in
30:43
Speaker 3: that prison, only because I've always seen a better future
30:46
Speaker 3: and an opportunity for me upon my return. So in
30:50
Speaker 3: the name of my son, in the name of myself,
30:55
Speaker 3: I was definitely going to upon my return, whatever day
30:59
Speaker 3: that was going to be. I was going to do
31:00
Speaker 3: something and make something better of myself and highlight it,
31:04
Speaker 3: to do better in the community that I grew up in.
31:08
Speaker 2: Redemption Redemption song.
31:10
Speaker 3: I feel like I have been taking that journey. I
31:12
Speaker 3: feel like I have been walking that journey with the
31:14
Speaker 3: work that I've been doing. I now teach kids in
31:19
Speaker 3: the neighborhood who fathers were incarcerated or who mothers were incarcerated.
31:22
Speaker 3: I teach them carpentry. I own a furniture business as
31:27
Speaker 3: building custom cabinets as well as selling furniture and supply.
31:33
Speaker 2: This is Royal Man Solutions.
31:36
Speaker 3: And you can find that on Royalmansolutions dot com. And
31:40
Speaker 3: one of the things that I do is that I
31:44
Speaker 3: take some of these kids from the community, take them
31:47
Speaker 3: on deliveries with me, and I pay them. It's it's
31:50
Speaker 3: an opportunity for them to learn the trade and the craft,
31:54
Speaker 3: but also learn the experience of working a job to
32:00
Speaker 3: be able to provide for themselves today, tomorrow, in in
32:03
Speaker 3: the future.
32:05
Speaker 2: I think it's really beautiful how he's carrying on with
32:08
Speaker 2: his life without the bitterness and the baggage. He's very
32:11
Speaker 2: much a radiant soul. He's given back to his community
32:14
Speaker 2: and we'll have links to Carl's work in the bile
32:17
Speaker 2: so you can flood him with love there. And now
32:20
Speaker 2: we'll go to closing part of our show. I want
32:22
Speaker 2: to thank the listeners for having me as your guest host,
32:25
Speaker 2: and of course thanks to the two Carls, Carl Williams
32:28
Speaker 2: for allowing me the honor to tell this story and
32:31
Speaker 2: Carl Leonard for his work on behalf of the Wrongfully Convicted.
32:35
Speaker 2: This last bit of the show we call closing arguments.
32:38
Speaker 2: I'm going to step away from the mic and let
32:40
Speaker 2: Carl and Carl have the last words.
32:43
Speaker 4: The way to avoid wrongful convictions in the first place,
32:47
Speaker 4: the way to fix the wrongful convictions that we have
32:50
Speaker 4: is for the people who are listening to the program
32:52
Speaker 4: to vote. Vote for prosecutors who are going to change
32:55
Speaker 4: the way these offices work. Vote for mayors who are
32:59
Speaker 4: going to appoint police chis who are going to change
33:01
Speaker 4: the way police departments work. It's a slow process. It
33:04
Speaker 4: doesn't help people like Carl, but hopefully it helps prevent
33:08
Speaker 4: more people like Carl. It get the people out who
33:11
Speaker 4: are locked up wrongfully, stop sending the wrong people to prison.
33:15
Speaker 4: And I think the only way that we can do
33:16
Speaker 4: that is to vote for better leaders.
33:19
Speaker 3: I certainly agree. I'm reaching out to different legislators making
33:25
Speaker 3: an argument about how the narrative surrounding wrongful convictions needs
33:30
Speaker 3: to change. How there need to be a calling for
33:34
Speaker 3: people being held responsible for allowing wrongful convictions and knowingly
33:39
Speaker 3: committing crimes with prosecutor and misconduct with police brutality where
33:44
Speaker 3: there be charges brought against them because they're crimes. If
33:47
Speaker 3: I committed the crime, you will bring your charge against me.
33:50
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be no difference. The other thing is is
33:53
Speaker 3: that I thank y'all for being able to tell the
33:57
Speaker 3: stories of those who are wrongfully convicted. This allows an
34:02
Speaker 3: audience to hear the story, make a decision, and hopefully
34:07
Speaker 3: be active to change the narrative as well. It's important
34:11
Speaker 3: to inform the public so they can definitely be involved
34:14
Speaker 3: and get involved. It makes them more capable, more able,
34:18
Speaker 3: and more fit in terms of serving to change the
34:22
Speaker 3: narrative about wrongful convictions.
34:27
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I like to
34:30
Speaker 2: thank our executive producers Jason Flem and Kevin Wadis. The
34:34
Speaker 2: senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly and our
34:37
Speaker 2: producers are Lela Robinson, Conner Hall and Jeff Clive Barne.
34:41
Speaker 2: Our editor is Roxander Gweedy and special thanks to jillianforced
34:46
Speaker 2: That for help on this episode. The music and this
34:49
Speaker 2: productions by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
34:53
Speaker 3: Be sure to.
34:54
Speaker 2: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at
34:58
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as
35:03
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35:07
Speaker 2: can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram at free
35:10
Speaker 2: Patrick Pursley at imkid Culture two and online at imkidculture
35:15
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Speaker 2: Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.
35:29
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wronfel Conviction,
35:32
Speaker 1: Patrick Persley will interview Eric Blackman, a fellow Xgnery and
35:36
Speaker 1: someone he knew well inside prison. They're going to talk
35:40
Speaker 1: about the toxic criminal justice system in nineteen ninety Chicago
35:44
Speaker 1: and how Eric ended up in prison for a crime
35:47
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. I mean, he couldn't have committed it.
35:50
Speaker 1: The guy had dozens, literally dozens of alibi witnesses. Now, Patrick,
35:55
Speaker 1: by the way, is someone I mean, this guy is
36:00
Speaker 1: such an incredible human. During his almost three decades wrongfully
36:04
Speaker 1: convicted in some of the most dangerous and deadly prisons
36:07
Speaker 1: in America, he somehow figured out how to change the
36:13
Speaker 1: law that allowed for the evidence in his case to
36:17
Speaker 1: be tested, which ultimately proved his innocence and led to
36:22
Speaker 1: his exoneration. So this is going to be an incredible conversation.
36:28
Speaker 1: Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed