Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / You're Not Falling Behind. Loving The Life You Have While Building a Life You Love with Author of Radically Content: Jamie Varon

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You're Not Falling Behind. Loving The Life You Have While Building a Life You Love with Author of Radically Content: Jamie Varon · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. Jamie Varren is a writer whose
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: words of wisdom are well almost everywhere nowadays. You may
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: have seen her writing in teen Vogue, the Huffington Post medium.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I saw her writing for the first time on Instagram.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: It was this quote reposted by a slew of influencers
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and celebrities. She writes, how about you don't have to
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: build an empire, or dominate an industry or be the
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: number one at anything. What if you just simply build
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: a lovely life that makes you feel happy, that brings
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you joy, that is generative and supportive, So simple, and
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: yet people clearly need to hear it. And I think
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: that's what Jamie does so well. Her writing takes the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: pressure off. Here's a little background on Jamie. In her thirties,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: she was not happy.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: She says.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: She started asking herself a lot of questions about the
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: limiting beliefs that were controlling her decisions, and then she
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: made some big changes. She says she revolutionized her own
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: life and now she's on a quest to help shift
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: anybody who's looking to make a change. She says, the
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: movement begins with being radically content. That's also the name
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: of her recent book. She says, there is so much dissatisfaction,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and she's challenging us all to create our own ideals.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I need to know more about what she means by that. So, Jamie,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: you're a writer, but also, as you put it, you're
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: a multi passionate. You're a designer, a creative consultant. First
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: all I needed you to tell me more, and secondly,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: how are these three intertwined?
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I just follow my passion. I always thought that that
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: wasn't allowed. I didn't know that you could do that.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: So I always thought, pick a lane, have a title,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: do that. And then I started to recognize this really
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: was keeping me in a box. And so I just
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: every time someone asked me to do something, or I
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: got excited about something, I would just pursue it.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: It's like how I started my course. I was like,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: you know what, I have a cool idea for a
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: digital course. Why don't I just see Why don't I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: just see what happens, see where it goes, and then
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: my enthusiasm for it just led me to the outline
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: the creating, and then with the creative consulting. I mean,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I just love brainstorming with people. I've always loved that
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: since I was young, and I turned it into a job,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Like I was like, how can I just turn this
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: thing that I love, which is like riffing off of
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: ideas into a thing people can pay me for? And
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: then it just sort of happened, and like it's kind
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: of a weird thing. I put little seeds out into
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: the universe and I say, you know what, I think
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: i'd like to do this, and then somehow it comes
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: around and it starts to like bloom and grow, and
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, someone goes, have you ever thought
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: about doing some consulting work? And I'm like, actually, you
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: know what, I did plant that seed about a year ago. Sure,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: let's do it.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like the seeds you plant have to
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: be really intentional for them to come to fruition?
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Actually, I feel like most of them, I mean they
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: are intentional, but most of them feel pretty vague where
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: And I also am just a big proponent of quitting
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: things when they stop feeling exciting or I have, Like
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't mind putting in the work, but
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: sometimes when I feel this is feeling heavier and heavier
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: over and over. I think that's why I can really
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: embrace the multi passionate, because like, I'll quit it if
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I don't have to be stuck with something forever just
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: because I did it for a few years. I'll just
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: try something new. And the more I embrace that, the
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: happier I become. But I sometimes fight with myself, you know,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: as those things happen.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I think we all have those fights within ourselves.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: One of the stories I love that you tell in
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: terms of planting a seed is Twitter should hire me
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: dot com? Yeah, so can we just kind of like
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: take a step back pre writing pre so many of
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: your hats. You planted a Twitter seed that turned into
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: something else. Will you tell us that story?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yeah. So I just got out of college.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I was living at home, as the millennials love to do,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: and I was trying to find some sort of job
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: in tech. I thought I was going to be in
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: the startup world and I wanted to work at Twitter.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: This was like two thousand and eight. Twitter wasn't Twitter yet.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: It was still you know, people were like talking in
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: the third person type of Twitter, and but I had
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: this idea that I needed to work at Twitter. I
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: had no skills. They were like hiring engineers. But I'm
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: over here, like I'm going to work at Twitter. And
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: so first though, the part of the story I don't
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: always tell is first I brought cookies shaped in like
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: the Twitter logo to the Twitter offices.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Don't so I've ever heard you say that part. And
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of spooked because I got I made cookies
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: to get a job too. That was my thing. Really,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I've never heard anyone else say that. That's hysterical.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, no, I yeah, I got these. You
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: know people they now do the cookies with like the
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: picture on it and it's in icing. I just ordered
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: them and did that and brought it into the offices
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: and they were like, okay, thanks. You know, they didn't
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: really do it. I was just like, sure, let me.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Just do this.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: And so then they didn't hire me. You were the
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: cookie girl I was, And then they didn't hire me.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: But then I was thinking, I gotta do something. I'm
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: mist is not going to stand out, like I was
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: never a big resume person because I was like, this
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: is so boring. I'm not boring, and so one day
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I just had this idea. I was like, I think
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I should just make a website called Twitter should hire
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: me dot com? And I stayed up till six in
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: the morning building it. It was pretty basic, but you know,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I had some design skills. I could do it, and like,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I sent out one tweet to my I don't know,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: maybe I had five hundred followers, maybe two hundred. And
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: when I woke up it cause mind you, it's six
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: in the morning. I had to sleep. When I wake up,
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: it's it's for that time, that was as viral as
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: you could go. I mean, now you could go millions
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: and millions and millions, but that time there wasn't all
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: of that. And all of a sudden, I'm like getting
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: emails from CNN and Fortune magazine telling me like this
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: is so interesting. You know, we want to feature you.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: This is the recession. You're doing like a creative way
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: to get a job. And then Twitter asks me into
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: the office we have lunch. They have no positions for
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: me because I have no skills right after college, and
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I was like pretty disappointed. But then I was also like, wait,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I'm getting all this. There's a lot of eyes on me.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I might as well pivot this. And I started having
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: people ask me do you do design work? Can I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: hire you for design work? And I was like, wait,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: you could hire me for that, Like that's so cool.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: And then I just started saying yes, sure, hire me
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: for that. And then all of a sudden I had
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: all these clients so sorry Twitter. Actually, funny part about
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: this recently someone commented on my Instagram was like, I
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: remember you coming into the Twitter offices for your lunch
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: after Twitter should hire me? Wo she worked at Twitter?
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: And I was like, it was a big deal.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: See you were memorable.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, oh my god. Well I felt
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: a little silly, but it worked. You know.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I think if we I look back on a lot
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: of the things I've done too to get jobs or
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: like be memorable in a career space, and I feel embarrassed.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: But if you don't look back at your old emails
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and your old things and feel a little embarrassed, that
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: means you haven't grown since then. You know, it's not exactly.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And I like the part of it I like is
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I'm like, who was that girl? I was just like
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do. I
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: didn't overthink it, and I think that was a function
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: of the Internet in two thousand and eight, where you know,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: you didn't not everything got put on blast every time
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: you did something. So I had a sort of I
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: wasn't as aware of myself at that time, and I
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: mean I did get some flak. People were making fun
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: of me as like, you know, it's the Internet, so
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: I wasn't. It wasn't this like part of the virality
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: of it was people being like, can you believe this girl?
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: You know? I was like, yeah, I know, but I
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: got to do something to stand out.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: You do, and I think you know that creativity is
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: something that's transpired throughout your entire career For people who
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: don't know exactly what you do, how would you describe it?
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Thank God, I don't even know. I mean I would
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: say writer and designer kind of encapsulates most of it.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: But it would be like I feel like sometimes when
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: people ask me like about my career, I want to
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: give them like a timeline, be like this was this era,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: This was this era, because I look at my career
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: in terms of eras like that was the era where
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I created the app for iPhones. That was the era
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: where I was like traveling and working with a bunch
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: of clients. That was like different eras as opposed to
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: a traditional career trajectory.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: So much of your messaging is that it's okay to
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: not be okay. Why is that the overarching message?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: I think because I spent a lot of time telling
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: myself it was not okay to not be okay and
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: shaming myself, or okay, you're feeling too much, you're too sensitive,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: you're too just too much in general, And so I
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: look back and I'm like, everything that I do now
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a love letter and a permission slip
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: to my younger self, and it just so happens that
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: it gets to resonate with lots of other people. But
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: really it's kind of me going, hey, twenty two year
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: old Jamie, it's okay, you know, And it's okay too
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: not you know, want to fit in all these boxes.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: It's okay to want to stand out. It's okay that
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: the way that the world does things is not the
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: way that you want to do things. And it's okay
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: if you have more emotions than just happy, sad, you know,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: it's okay that there's so much more out there for
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: you to discover about yourself, like you don't have to
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: have it figured out, and you also, I mean, the
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: biggest another through line in my work is like you're
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: not falling behind, like it's your own life. You know.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: That was a big thing I did a lot of
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: in my twenties, even from as early as like twenty one,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: I was thinking, I'm falling behind on what? Like I
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: look back and I'm like, what did I think I
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: was falling behind on? It was my own life? But
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: somehow feel that I know, I know.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: It's like the Forbes thirty under thirty is such a
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: great metaphor for that sort of pressure that we all
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: feel to like do everything by a certain age, and
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: then you realize one day that, oh, all of that
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: was made up, All those metrics are made up.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: You hope you realize that, because some people, I think,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: unfortunately are conditioned into believing that it really does matter
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: and it really is true that you you know, I
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: talk a lot about you know, age in general of
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: like you don't grow out of your desires, It's never
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: too late. And I end up getting tons of messages
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: from people who are like, I'm twenty six and I
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: already feel like I've lost my momentum or I'm not
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: where I want to be, and I'm like, twenty six,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: you have plenty of time, you really do. But you know,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: but there is a cultural thing that's reinforced through something
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: like Forbes thirty under thirty or you know, now they're
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: doing eighteen under eighteen. It's like, good Lord, give us
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: a moment to breathe.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Seven under seven, right, five under five, Like these.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: These young stars are really killing it, and you're like, Okay,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I'm thirty six. Great. Thanks.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: So the title of your book is called radically Content,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and I want to hear obviously from you what it
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: means to you. But before I ask you, I have
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: to tell you that a few months ago, I asked
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: my therapist about millennials in general, because she speaks to
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of millennials, and I said, I feel like
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: there is this overarching dissatisfaction that we all feel like
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: we were supposed to. Maybe it's coming from the fact
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that we were all supposed to do things that maybe
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: haven't come in our timeline. I think it's coming from
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a few different places. So the book title, radically content
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: was so interesting and personally personally meaningful to me. What
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: does it mean to you?
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: I had a list of probably two hundred names, and
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I was considering I couldn't even write until I had
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: the title. It had to encapsulate what I was really
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: trying to say, and it had to have a movement
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: to it. You know that we something we can get behind.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know why. It just felt so important and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: radically content to me. It is a real big fu
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: to that whole culture that says like you're never enough,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: You're never doing enough. No matter what you do. You
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: should always be driven by dissatisfaction. You should always be striving,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: you should always be hustling, and just like till what
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: you just completely burn out. And when I landed on it,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I was like, it's contentment. That's what it is. Like,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that's the thing we're both terrified of and looking for.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: You know, if you look at it, it's like we're
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: wanting to feel a deep sense of contentment, but we're
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: terrified of doing so because we think that's complacency. I
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: can't give up. I mean, in Western culture, that's the
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: worst thing you can do. It's like you can't be lazy,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: you can't give up, you can't stop striving. We're people
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: of innovation, right, we need to keep pushing. Mean, I
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: think of that Matt Damon commercial about Crypto where he's
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: just like, we're a pie. We're visionaries, you know, and
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: that's great, But to what extent, like, to what end
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: are we doing that? Because what I was noticing was
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: all right, we're working a lot, or have huge ambitions,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: we have huge dreams, but like, when do we get
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: to be happy? Like when do we get to actually
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: not even just happy, Like when do we just get
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: to be like okay in our lives and feel any
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: sense of Like to me, I'm like, what was I
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: doing all this for? If I never stop to enjoy it,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: if I never slow down, if I'm never in a
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: moment where I say, wow, look how far I've come,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: instead of being like I still have to go more.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: It's still not good enough. I'm not like that person
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: on Instagram. It didn't do this thing. And we play
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: that game with ourselves. We constantly are telling ourselves over
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and over, well, it's not that yet. I didn't get
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: that yet, that's the thing. And I realized I was
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: like this is a never ending ladder like it just
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: there's no end to it. So the only answer is
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: to opt out and feel deep contentment with who you
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: are and what you have, no matter what you have
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: and who you are, and then have your ambitions and
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: your dreams from that place. And I tried that on
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: for like five years, five or six years before I
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: wrote this book. I really I was like, how do
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: you try it on?
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Well? I was vigilant about how many you know the
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: whole Well, I'll be happy when I have a book out.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: That'll fix me, that'll prove I'm good enough. And until
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: then I have to punish myself because I don't have
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: a book out yet, and that punishment will be my
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: motivation to get a book out. And then once I
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: have a book out, I'll be happy, so it' all
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: be worth it. And I would stop myself before that
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: cycle began, because I knew that was a toxic cycle,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: and so I had to keep pulling myself back to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: the present moment to say, Nope, you're enough now, this
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: is that you're it. You don't have to prove, you
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: don't have to earn the right to go out, and
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: you know, I would even feel like sometimes in my twenties,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I would have to earn the right to like take
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: care of myself to be healthy or you know, to
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: go exercise or something. It's like, well, I can't. I
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: got to be either productive or worrying that I'm not
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: productive enough. I don't have time for like like cooking.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: That's ridiculous, you know, I mean, I don't got.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Side for all that I'm there, I don't have time
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: for cooking. And I think that's maybe a sign.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like, then what is you know, I'm in
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: this place right now taking it even further where I'm like,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: what are the things that truly actually contribute to my
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: well being? And what are the things that I've been
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: told contribute to my well being? Because I've had a
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: big couple of years, especially twenty twenty one, and the
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: things that they've told me to care about and strive
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: for they do not feel as fulfilling as like my
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: daily walks that I take that contribute to my well
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: being and putting in the work day in and day
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: out to like actually healing some of these things instead
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: of just going along with the tide of culture that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: tells me you're not good enough, yet keep proving yourself.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: You got to be more productive. I mean, I think
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: we all experienced some of that. In twenty twenty, there
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: was this big backlash on productivity, and actually that was
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: really noticeable to me because I was like, I'm not
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: really caught in this, and not in a braggy way,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: but I was like, wow, we're doing this, Like this
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: is what I had got myself out of? Was that spiral?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Because I'm like, I thought my productivity was my only
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: worth for so long.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: So in the book, you write, once you start to
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: opt out of a society that does not want you
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: to be happy or valued as you are, it's like
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: waking up from a bad dream. When was the moment
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you decided to opt out? Like, do you remember the
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: distinct moment?
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I think it had to have been twenty seventeen, because
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: all of twenty sixteen, well all of twenty fifteen, I
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: was writing for this website that I thought was going
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: to make me a star, a writing star. That's what
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: they told me. That's how they got me in. That's
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: how they got me. That's how they were able to
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: exploit me and pay me less than what I deserved.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, yes, please make me a star.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Then that didn't work out, and then I was approached
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: by a literary agent and I was trying to write
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: a book. Like every single day, I was trying to
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: work on a proposal, come up with ideas, and I
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: was miserable. Not because of the book. It wasn't that.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: It was just this push push, push, push, push push,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: and I was just like, don't talk to me, don't
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do anything. I twenty sixteen feels
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: to me like a total darkness because I was just
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: so focused. I'm like, I gotta get this going. I'm
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: in you know now, I'm in my early thirties. I
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: have to make it. What is this going to give me?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: It's going to give me everything. And then I was
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: like I quit, I quit everything. I was so anxious.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: I was so not myself. I didn't even know who
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I was. And I said, you know what I realized.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: I said to myself. I was like, I just want
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: to be happy. And then I realized I was like,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I'm like thirty two. I have never once had that
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: singular goal. Ever. It was always well, I just got
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: to get this thing because that's supposed to make me happy.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I have to earn the happiness. I have to get
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: it first, I have to achieve it. And I had
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: never had the goal of just just be happy like
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: and to me at the time, I thought it was happiness,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: but really it was contentment. And so that became this
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: whole thing of recognizing I felt like I was in
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: a detox where I was like, I cannot I have
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: to figure out how to be content, how to be
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: happy in the moment right here, even with nothing going on.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And so I had this whole reckoning with myself.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: So much of what you're saying sounds to me like
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: you gave your self permission, because we're asking in our ambitions,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: we're asking the world for permission to be happy basically,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: and you said, no, I'm going to give myself permission,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: which I think women in particular really struggle with because
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: we're constantly asking for permission for a lot of things subconsciously, Yeah,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: how do you give yourself permission? And I don't mean
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to get like so tactical with you, but I just
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: think this is something so many people struggle with.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I can I can say that it is a constant,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: constant thing you have to give yourself because what I've oh,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: what I've recognized is the world is so loud. If
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: you don't tell yourself how to think and what to value,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: the world will tell you. Yeah, we'll get in your
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: ear and it will tell you. And I've chills because
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: like that is that's the real thing. Like if you
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: that you only have two choices, you either let the
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: world tell you what's valuable about you, what you should
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: care about, what you should strive for, or you are
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: vigilant about telling yourself what that is. And it's it's
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: a lifelong thing because being in society, being in the
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: world is a lifelong pursuit. I mean, that's what we're
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: here for. And I think you just it gets a
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: little easier the more that you read recognize, like there's
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: some little red flags, like I start to recognize when
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: it's a should. You know, that's the we all know
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: that word. Now, that's the word that's to me the
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: red flag. It's like, well, I should do this, I
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: think I should or when you start asking is it
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: okay if I do this? Or what will people think
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: when I do this? And oh, I'm going to have
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: to tell people about this what are people going to
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: think or when you start really noticing that you're looking
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: outside of yourself for that kind of permission and it
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: just it's not going to exist. And I think I've
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: done a really really powerful job of telling myself I
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: empower myself to be the permission slip, because if I
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: wait for the for the world to give me permission,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: especially as a woman, I mean, it's it's never going
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: to happen what I think that, you know, even achievement,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: it's not the permission slip that we think that it is.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to tell somebody that though, Like I think,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I actually still struggle with this. If I'm being candid,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I think I feel as if certain milestones will make
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: me happy. But I think you've achieved a certain amount
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: of success in your life, and you're here to say
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: that's not really the case.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: It gives you. Now, I won't say that it doesn't
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: make you feel a momentary feeling of something. It does
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: give you a rush, yeah, But it's all about if
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: you expect that it's going to give you permission, validation
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: worth something of real substantial value. I think that it's
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: going to be tricky because it's usually it's kind of
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: like you have to value yourself first so that you
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: can feel the value of the achievement versus well, once
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: I get there, then I'll know I'm X, or then
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: i'll know I'm why. And I don't want to bash
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: on achievement because I'm very ambitious and I do enjoy
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: achievement because it feels now as if it's a challenge
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: between myself and it's an experience I get to have.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: But I think that whole tight rope of like when
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I get to this thing, all feel this way. I mean, yeah,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: it is. It is because we I mean, and it's
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: also reinforced. So what I'll say is like I've done
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of deconditioning, but it still pops up. I
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: mean I still get that. I mean I still go
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: to the place of you know, oh, once I get there,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: once my book is out, once this is happening, and
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: that's when I have to just take it back. And
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I think that's something that is really important, is having
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: compassion for yourself when the conditioning comes up, instead of going, oh,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: how are you still thinking like that? You know better?
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: You're this, Like we don't need to talk to ourselves
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: like that. I mean, I know it's the natural way
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: that we do it. We can be hard on ourselves,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: but we can just like kind of I look at
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: it as like I gently guide myself back to where
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I want to be. It's a redirect. I used to
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: be so hard on myself. Oh my god, I was
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: so hard on myself. I mean, people wouldn't believe it
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: because I sound different now, but and they might go, oh, well,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I mean it couldn't possibly be as hard as I'm
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: on myself, And I'm like, I promise you I was.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I wasn't the worst. I mean, brading myself over and
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: over and over about the things that I hadn't done yet,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: where I wasn't going, the directions I wasn't going. In
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: this person comparison was like could truly like ruin a
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: whole month for me? You know, like I was there,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I was in it. And so that's why I feel
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: so passionately about this, because I know how much trying
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: to prove those voices inside wrong doesn't work. Like the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: opt out, which is what I've come to call it,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: is the only thing that works, and saying to yourself,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: this is an unwish race, I will keep doing this
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: to myself. If I think that something out there is
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: going to tell me, yeah, you're worth loving, Yeah you're
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: good enough. It's like, yeah, well.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: It's interesting. When you were talking about naming the voices. Recently,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I started putting my hand on my heart and feeling
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the anxiety, feeling whatever I was feeling, and I actually
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: say it out loud. I speak to myself and I'm like, Okay, Danielle,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I know you're feeling anxious right now. Where do you
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: think it's coming from? And like, I have a conversation
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: with myself and just naming it and feeling a body
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: part actually really helps it?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Does It does? Say? I recently had some anxiety about
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: something and I was just even while it was happening,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, thank you for trying to protect me. Yeah,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I see that you're worried. I see that there's fear here.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: But I'm going to go in another direction.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I really love that you
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: write about, and you've written about it like on blog
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: posts and articles before, is age. So you talk in
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: your book about the pressure of doing things at by
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: a certain age. We talked about that earlier, and then
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: the idea of settling in your twenties plagued you. So
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: in my mind, when I think of the words settle,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: it has a negative connotation. And then I think of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Megan Kelly's book Settle for More, which is like sort
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: of a spin on the word settle. Where do you land?
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: What does settle mean to you?
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I think in our minds we all have a definition
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: of probably what it would mean to settle. You know,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: it's very tangible because it's based in our history. So
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: for me in my twenties, it was like, I came
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: from a really conformist kind of suburb in northern California,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: So I was like, settling means becoming a conformist person,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: you know, like not following my dreams kind of thing.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And then I was recognizing, like, okay, that's pretty harmful.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: So I've come to understand that like settling, we like
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: to define it, but it actually is pretty indefinable, and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: what we really mean is it's the feeling of not
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: being our truest selves. That's what the feeling of settling is.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: It means we've followed someone else's path and we've settled
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: for their version. Because there's plenty of people, like there's
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of people who might feel like their best,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: most beautiful life is in a suburb, right, So how
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: can I say, well, settling is living in a suburb,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: for example. That's a very like minor example, but like
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: that's a good example of saying like that for some
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: people who grew up, you know, like for my husband
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: who grew up in like abject poverty in Tunisia. To him,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: where I grew up, it's like idyllic, right, It's like,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: oh my god, there's grass, Like he mentions grass all
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: the time. It's the funniest thing. I'm like, you love grass.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: He's like, nothing's green where I came from, I never
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: saw anything green, And I was like, oh, okay, so
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: this has changement. It's all relative, and so when we
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: give it these definitions, we kind of sometimes can avoid
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: maybe what's even like best for us. Whereas if we
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: look at it as like, the way that I'm going
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: to feel that I settled was that I didn't listen
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: to myself, was that I ignored what was calling to me.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Even if what was calling to me was like I
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: want to go hiking three times a week, but I
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: ignored that because I thought I had to do some
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: like intense strength training routine because I need my body
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: to look a certain way. These types of things again
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: another tactical example, but that's how it manifests, and we
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: miss like the thing that feels could potentially feel the
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: most true to us because we're like, no settling is
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: ending up like this, this and this, and it's like, oh,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: if you just listen to what's within, you might find that, like,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: you're probably closer to your ideal. You just need to
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: change the filter in which you see your life. And
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: if you're not there, you can make a plan. You
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: can look at it as like listening to yourself and
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: really honoring yourself versus like because I always try to
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: take away the charge around a lot of these terms
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: that we use to wound each other and ourselves, like
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the settling and you're not good enough, And it's like
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: what are we really saying here though? What are we
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: really trying to access? Because it's not we can't all
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: be the best of the best at everything. There's only
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: one number one spot, you know, and that's okay, that's
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: all right, but we don't all have to aspire that
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: cannot be the only way that we all access joy
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: and happiness and pride in ourselves, and you know, all
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: the things that are promised to us.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: What do you want people in their twenties to know?
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Just like experiment, take it easy, sure, take your life seriously,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: but take it a little lightly to see what you like.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Like you might honestly not like the things that you
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: think you're supposed to like, and if you don't try it,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: like I use an example in my book about someone
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: who maybe wants to be a musician, and yet they
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: don't ever practice it, so they don't know if they
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: actually like it, but it's built up in their head
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: and built up in their head and built up in
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: their head. But then they go, but I'm supposed to
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: be a musician, and I'm supposed to do this thing,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: And then they try it, like years later, of course,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and it's built up and they're got it, and I'm nothing.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: I'm like, didn't go where I wanted to go because
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I never did this thing. Then I'm supposed to be
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: perfect at it and good enough and dah dah da
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: da dah, and then they might try it and go,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: it's not for me. I kind of liked this other
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: thing that I've been doing all along. That I saw
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: through a different filter because I was thinking I had
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: to become this big Like that's why I'm all about experimentation,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: because unfortunately, we don't always know what's best for us.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: We don't always know what's gonna make us happy, and
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: sometimes we find ourselves going down a path that has
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: to work. I gotta make it work, and I got
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: to figure it out. And like, you know, I'm comparing
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: to this person on Instagram who's got it all figured
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: out and their life looks perfect, right, their life looks amazing,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: and then you end up doing it, huh not for
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: me kind of built it up in my head, like
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: it's a lot different in your head when you start
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: doing things. And I wish someone had told me that
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: in my twenties. I wish someone had said it's okay,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: like to try different things, it's okay to or different interests,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: because I thought, you've got to figure it out and
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: that's the only way to be successful and never ever quit.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Right, And you know that's the WHR and experiment.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: So now you're thirty six and you write in the book,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm in some wild place of possibility,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: like I've burned through all these limiting beliefs and get
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: to just live the way I want to live. So
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: what is the largest limiting belief that you push through
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: and do you have a new belief that you've acquired
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: that you feel like really serves you in place of that?
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: The one that I can think of is that you're
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: supposed to really care what people think and how it
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: sneaks in. Is you're supposed to look a certain way,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: have a certain job, and that what matters is other
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: people thinking you're doing well. That was a real big
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: limiting belief for me. That's it matters how it appears
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: to others, which made me ignore how it felt to me.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: You know, like I, for example, I took that job
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: at that website that ended up being very exploitative, and
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: it was very much recognizing that I did that to
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: appear that I was a full time writer. I wanted
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: to tell people that I was a professional, paid writer,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: never mind that it was not a lot of money,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: but it the appearance of it felt important to me
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: at that time, and I recognized that that was very
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: limiting and that I was completely disempowering myself from being
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: like do you even like this? Are you even happy.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Is this good for you? Like? Is this actually good
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: for your soul and your health and your emotional well being?
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: And so what I've replaced with how it appears to others.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: And this speaks in even though we I might think
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: that I and completely without these that belief, but it
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: sneaks in from time to time, and now I replace
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: it with like, how my life feels to me is
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: the north star? The most important thing? My well being
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: a day on a day to day basis is what
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: matters to me. So if anything comes along that I
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: feel like is not going to support my well being,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: it's a nun It's an easy no. Other. If I'm
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: doing something just to appear more impressive to others, it
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: is a hell no.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Oh that's a good barometer. It's a good question to ask.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Yourself, like who do I want to tell first everybody else?
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Or do I want to cherish the feeling?
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Do I really want to be there spend time with
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: that person? So on and so forth.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because sometimes we don't walk it out too. We
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: don't see we're so focused on the announcement or we
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: got it, we got the thing. It's like people who
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: you know, they get a promotion and then it comes
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: with like tons more work. But they were so focused
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: on what it means to get a promotion that they
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: don't realize their quality of life is might be suffering
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: because they have less time for themselves, they have less
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: free time, they have a higher workload, more responsibility. And
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: we're taught that like that's always better, promotions are always better,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: for example, whereas we're not taught to say, but would
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: this be better for me? Like is this going to
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: support the life that I want? And is this going
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: to actually benefit my day to day well being versus
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: that one moment that I get to tell people I
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: got a promotion, Like that's not enough for me anymore,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: that one moment. It has to I have to walk
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: it out now and see what's the reality.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: It'll may be good for you, you just yeah, really, I
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: like the shre and walk it out. I think that's
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: a good yeah, and it might it.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Might, but you I think we make more empowered decisions
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: like what I find with these things that are like
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: really automatic of like well, more is always better, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: more money, a bigger promotion, a bigger this is always better.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: We don't actually look at the reality of what that's
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: going to entail. You know, I've had a lot of
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: very wealthy clients before who have told me, you know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: things like I had a Porsche, my dream car, sitting
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: in the driveway, but in order to pay for that Porsche,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I never drove it because I was always working, you know.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: And it's like, that's a really typical story. But it's
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: it has truth. That's why it's stereotypical, you know, because
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: it's it's a truth that happens to people.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: You spoke about conformity, yeah, which I can tell is important,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: that the idea of being a nonconformist is important. You
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: dedicate your book actually to nonconformists, to rebels and sensitive souls.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: So the word sensitive is so loaded for me personally, Okay,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: because in my house and my mom listens to the
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: podcast and she'll probably tell me this isn't true, but
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: this is how I vote. My mom being said, it
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: was always like you're so sensitive, you're so sensitive, And
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: from reading your book, I learned that you had similar messaging.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: How does that show up in your relationships?
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Now? Honestly, now, my response to a lot of that
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: is am I sensitive? Or are you just being insensitive?
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Because let's talk about that, Like, I mean, that's but
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: also I do some you know, I'll think about it
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: with myself or I'm like, maybe I did take that
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: a little sensitively, but I think I really don't worry
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: about that anymore, because what happened to me was because
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I was so worried about seeming sensitive, I really numbed
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: out my emotions. And so for me, I'm like, I'd
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: rather feel the true spectrum of my emotions than be numb.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: And if doing so requires that I'm a bit more sensitive,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: then maybe others are pretending they're not, then so be it.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Because I spent too much time bottling it all in.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And actually it has become like the more that I
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: embrace my sensitivity, the more that I find like minded people.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, my work, my writing is so sensitive and tender,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: like it's real feelings, and I'm like, that's connecting me
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: to people. I don't ever have to like that that's
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: important to me. I couldn't have written radically content being
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: like shaming myself for being too sensitive, because then it
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: would have changed the entire text. I mean, it would
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: have changed everything that I said. So I'm I have
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: tried to change my mind about it as like this
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: actually is the thing that connects and bonds me to others.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: It's also the way that I am able to better
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: understand the world. And I also understand and notice that
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: when people respond as like you're too sensitive, it's mostly
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: because of their own comfort level with emotions. Like my
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: mom is the same way. She doesn't love emotions. I
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: think she has. It's a baby a protection, you know,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: and us our generation, we're noticing, we're really you know,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: we're doing just the fact that like you were like, oh,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I was talking to my therapists, that's like a thing
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: you don't like. That's only our generation and what's coming
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: that they are so we're so open about therapy.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Something I notice about my sensitivity is that I'm able
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: to read people really well, like I can feel them.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: It's not like reading their face. I feel their emotions.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: So I notice when other people have that too. And
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of this interview, I noticed you notice
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: me in a particular way, and I was like, oh,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: she has it, yeah, you know, And it's the sensitivity.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: It's a superpower. And I also find it sometimes difficult
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: in particularly romantic relationships, because any shift I can.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Feel Oh my god, oh don't I know it. That's
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: always been the hardest thing in my marriage is I'm like,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I feel for two that's the big thing. I'm like, oh,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: like I feel when he feels something, I feel it too.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: So one of your posts a few months ago went viral.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: It was not your first time going viral, yeah, Chloe
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Kardashian shared it, Sophia, But I mean, like the list
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: goes on, a lot of public figures shared the posts.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: It was about maybe you don't have to build an umpire,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: which is a lot of what you talk about in
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: terms of avoiding hustle culture and the no sleep mentality.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I think with what people are calling the Great Resignation,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: quitting their jobs and wanting to find personal happiness, it's
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: a topic that we're talking about more. Now, why do
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: you think that post resonated so much? Because you write,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: you post something almost every day.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what's interesting about that is that it has
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: gone viral multiple times over its lifespan. It's about like
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: a little less than a year old, and what happened
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: was I think there was an energy about that post
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: because I was in a big upheaval myself when I
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: wrote it back in twenty twenty one, early twenty twenty one,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: in the sense that my Instagram had started to especially
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: feel like I need to make more shareable content and
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: make this more digestible and make this the shoulds, the shoulds,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: the shoulds, and like I got to build this so
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: that one day a public sure thinks I'm like worthy
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: enough of a book deal. And it was like this
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: whole thing that just drained me of every joy that
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I could ever find in my writing and on Instagram.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And I ended up like firing someone that was kind
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: of causing a lot of that chatter in my mind.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: And I wrote this post as like just on my phone,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I was like, how about you don't have to build
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: an app? Like to myself, I was like, Jamie, how
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: about you don't have to build an empire and you
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: don't have to be the best, and you don't have
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: to be all these things that you think you're supposed
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: to be, Like what if you just built a really
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: beautiful life for yourself that just mattered to you. And
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: I wrote it and it was so long, and I
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: was like, this is exactly what they tell you not
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: to post, you know, And I had to create a
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: whole new format for you know, I'm a designer, so
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I had to create a whole new format for it
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: didn't fit the path. The previous format was too long.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: I had to pick a new font, all the things,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: and then hasn't matched the rest of your feet. Yeah,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: And I was like, whatever, I just need to put
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: this out, like I don't even care, and I was
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: just I'm going to publish this whatever, like if people
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: read it, cool, If they don't, they don't. And then
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: it went like massive, And I guess with that one,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: I think it was just like no one had said
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: that before, because everything that I saw was like motivational
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: quote after motivational quote, and like, I do not write
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: motivational quotes. I'm not the one to come to if
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: you want. Well, no, I mean I am. They're motivational,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: and they're just not the typical motivation. No, they're not,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: and they're not. I don't I don't subscribe to the
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: idea that we all want the exact same things, So
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: I don't write from that place. And I think this
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: just hit people at a time when a lot of
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: us were feeling so burnt out. A lot of us
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: were feeling that pressure and you know, not being able
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: to access joy, just this constant pushing and pushing and pushing,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: because I think, like twenty seventh, like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of the dialogue online was really about like
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: you're made for more, You're a badass, you're this do more,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: get your dreams, like you know, and cool, and it
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: was all like girl boss boss babe da da da
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: da dah. I'm not saying any of that is bad.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: I don't value judge like on that stuff. I just
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: think a lot of us were like, WHOA, calm down?
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Can I breathe?
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I did a whole episode on girl boss culture because
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I dislike it a lot. I've never been a girl
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: boss no, nor do I want to be one. I
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: want to just be a boss.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Right like I'm abous. Well also, I think maybe my
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: perspective is different because I've been a boss since I
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: was too, like since two thousand and nine, and I
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: was like, I don't need a cute see culture for this,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Like I don't need this to like because for me,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I'm like, the work is fulfilling enough, Like being able
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: to do this is enough that I don't have to
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: create like a narrative around it, like I don't really
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: love to always like, yes I talk about hustle culture.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Yes I talk about certain things, but I always want
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: to make sure there's not some like brand that I
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: have that I have to talk about forever, you know,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: And I never wanted that. No, But it's a lot
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: of pressure, that's the thing, Like why do we need
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: more pressure in our lives?
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I actually think that that is what I feel most
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: when I come to your page. It's why I started
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: following you years ago. You relieved me of the pressure.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: That is exactly what I felt.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very important to me because I had so
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: much pressure on myself and I recognize I was like,
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: this is not actually doing anything like I thought. Okay,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: put the pressure on myself and then that'll make me
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: really achieve and do all the things. And then I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: recognize I was like, wow, if I love myself and
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just a little bit more chill with myself, it
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: works better. So you say you're not a guru, Oh yeah,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: you'd rather like to quote lead people back to their
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: own wisdom by reminding them of their own inherent power.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Who reminds you of your own power?
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: My friends, my husband, my mom. They always remind me
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: of like, you already know this, like, and I think
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: that I've cultivated enough people that it's I'm never asking
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: them for direct advice. I'm asking them to remind me
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: of what I already know, because usually we do. We
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: usually have a gut feeling, we usually really do know,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: but we've been disempowered that we don't. And I think
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of that is guru culture, because there's a
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: lot of people who make a lot of money by
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: telling people how to think and how to live. And
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: some might find that empowering, but there's a lot of
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: people and I seem to very much collect them, which
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: I love who don't and so for me, I never
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: want part of it is a protective mechanism for me,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: where we've seen some of our quote unquote heroes fall
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: on the sword of their lives, of their inauthenticity, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: for me, I never want anyone to think I have
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: it all figured out and I'm perfect and I'm the
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: go to woman on the mountain who's got all the answers,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: because I don't. And so it's protective for me and
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: that I wanted to have to, you know, release a
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: statement about this thing that I said, I lied about it,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: you know, or it wasn't what you thought. I'm like,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: I never want to release a statement like that. So
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: just like, I just don't call me a guru. Don't
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: expect me to know everything. Like I just know what
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: I know, and let me encourage you to know what
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: you know. Be discerning. And because I've also found I.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Don't want to release a statement. It's so good.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: That's my big thing.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I'm like, my oh, pory, I just want to avoid
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: releasing a statement.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: No statements. I'll release like this is a new thing
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I'm working on, but no statements.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: I have a quick rapid fire for you. Okay, So
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: your mom is also a multi passionate. But one of
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: the things she does is your makeup, Yeah, which I love.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: What is your favorite saying or a lesson that your
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: mom has taught you.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Well, well, she always said make your own money and
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: have your own money and do it your way. And
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: I really did that. She knew what she was talking about.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: So you move to France in your thirties with your husband.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Pretty early on in the book, you talk about how
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: it revolutionized your life. You say it changed everything for you.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Do you recommend that if people need a life change,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: a switch up, if they're stuck, that they move.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of moving. Environment can keep us
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: very stale. And just seeing other ways of life, I mean,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: if you can go to Europe. I know it's a
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: big privilege, of course, but if you can, I mean,
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: just seeing the way that they live, you realize, like, Okay,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: the United States is not the only place like not
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: everywhere is like this, and changing that perspective up allows
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: you to change up your own perspective and say, other
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: people live differently. I don't have to live the way
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: that this culture has prescribed.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: I have a card deck of fifty two questions.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: I saw the station.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: I always do. Want it random, so you'd let me
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: know when to stop stop. What would younger you not
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: believe about your life today?
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Like everything, but mostly younger me would never believe that
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I could live in La and feel as confident and
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: at ease with myself as I do now. Younger me
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: I think about that a lot, because like, younger me
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: would be like LA seemed like the place you go
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: to completely fall apart and feel horrible about yourself. And
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I've it feels like home to me.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Now, that's so good.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: What's a book that you've read that you think everybody
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: should read? Something that really shifted your perspective?
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's random. It's called What Alice Forgot and it's
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Leanne Moriarty. It's really good. Isn't it so good?
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, it really shifted my perspective on like,
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: be grateful for what you have. I mean, and maybe
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: don't get on a spin bike. But no, spoilers, don't worry.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't spoil anything. It's a novel and it really
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: was phenomenal.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Last question, what is the smartest decision you've ever made?
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: My god, jeez, that's a hard one. I think the
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: smartest decision I ever made was to was to forget
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: about overnight success and instant gratification and instead focus on
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: doing things my way, which took a lot longer. But
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: now that things, a lot of things are starting to
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: come to fruition. I feel so smart and grateful that
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: I did that because I'm like, now it's on my terms,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: I know who I am. I get to enjoy this
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: and experience this from a totally different place. I don't
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: feel like I have to measure up or shape shift
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: into anyone. I get to just be me when things
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: are happening that I've always.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Wanted to happen. No shape shifting, Yeah, no shape shifting.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: What you see is what you get. Thank you, Jamie,
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: All right, today's a good day. To have a good day.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Supp