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Land and Mineral Ownership with Jennifer Bremer · Conservation Stories

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Conservation Stories here on Conservation Stories. As you all know, we love to interview people that are doing great new things for the land and are interested in conservation and all things agriculture. And I love also to protect our land rights. And that is one of the reasons why I've asked my friend Jennifer Bremmer to join us today. Jennifer is the executive director of the Texas Land and Mineral Owners Association. Jennifer, thanks for being here.
• 0:41
  Speaker B: Hey, Talori, thanks for having me.
• 0:43
  Speaker A: So I just want us to have a little conversation about first of all, you and tell our listeners a little bit about your background and how you got to be the executive director.
• 0:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, so I am one of the fortunate ones that I was born into ag. Actually. My, my grandparents had a farm and a little bit of cattle outside of Houston, which is slowly becoming Houston these days. And so my, my dad actually did not being the second son, he did not work on the farm full time. But of course they grew sweet corn. So we were out always picking. That was really my introduction. And then the other thing is that I started riding horses as soon as I could sit up. My family rodeoed and so I had ag, you know, from all angles. And then of course, when I got of age, I got involved in 4H, started showing pigs, and then I moved into steers and heifers. And then in high school, I moved over to the RFFA program and I served in various leadership positions and competitions, did livestock judging and all kinds of CDEs and LDEs. And then at that point, you know, like every good 18 year old, I knew exactly what I wanted to do when I grew up and I went to A and M for ag business, I thought that was pretty general. I knew I wanted to work in ag, but I think there was so much more out there that I didn't know was there. Through my degree program, ag business, I did an internship called the Ag and Natural Resources Policy Internship, which placed me in Warren Chisholm's office, which is from up around Yalls Way. And that's really where I got my start in my current career. So when I worked for Mr. Chisholm, he had, we joked that he had more cattle than constituents in his district. And it's probably very close to true. He had 19 counties up along the panhandles. And when I worked for him, I actually met my next boss. So I went after I did two sessions in the legislature, I went and worked in government affairs for the pipeline industry.
• 3:06
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 3:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so I did about five years in the pipeline Industry. And then when I decided it was time to make a change, I, I really wanted to get back into something that I was passionate about and that I personally cared for as well as professionally. And the opportunity came to lead the Land of Mineral Owners Association. And so here, you know, is kind of where I landed. And then the other thing is I, I am the longest standing employee of my aunt and uncles wedding flower shop. So I do have some horticulture. I love it.
• 3:43
  Speaker A: I love it. That's awesome. Now that's a fun job. That'd be like. Well, unless you're doing the weddings. Those are kind of hard. Those are kind of like stressful.
• 3:51
  Speaker B: Yes, yes. But it's always beautiful.
• 3:54
  Speaker A: Oh, yes, I'm sure, I'm sure. So that you just recently got married. So did they do your, your flowers?
• 4:00
  Speaker B: They did.
• 4:01
  Speaker A: Oh, they were amazing. Just amazing. Yes, amazing. So question, tell us, what does your organization do? What does the association do?
• 4:13
  Speaker B: So we are a statewide advocacy organization which seems very general, but it's, you know, what we all do best. And we focus on land and minerals and private property rights from the energy perspective. So we work very closely with the legislature and actually the judiciary, and then we'll work with the railroad commission when necessary. But you know, our goal is for land and mineral owners, whether it's a separate, it's a separate estate or not to be able to make their own choices about what the best use of their land is. We don't ever want to see laws that inhibit that ability or, you know, place one industry over another. So that's kind of what we really work on, is to keep a fair playing field.
• 5:09
  Speaker A: Interesting. So can you give us an example of some of the battles you fought in the last session?
• 5:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. So the biggest thing we did last session was regarding carbon sequestration. The energy industry brought forward a bill that was pretty detrimental to our, our membership. And it, regardless of whether you were a landowner or a royalty owner, it was kind of bad for everybody. And so we worked on, on that. It had a few different big provisions in it, the easiest of which is poor space ownership. Sounds kind of silly who owns the poor space. But in Texas that's a big deal.
• 5:52
  Speaker A: So give us like for folks that might not understand mineral ownership and a background on just kind of like a real short 101 on mineral ownership.
• 6:04
  Speaker B: So Texas is unique. Not every state has this, but in Texas the mineral estate is actually the dominant estate. So you have kind of, kind of the land that you see is what we consider traditionally your surface and Then when you get underneath, you have minerals such as oil and gas, you know, that's taking on a new face in lithium. And now we're getting into carbon sequestration. So in Texas, you have two different ownership. It can be the same person, but it is in all ways.
• 6:40
  Speaker A: Right. You have the. You have the right to sell that off as a separate property, correct?
• 6:45
  Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, we're seeing more and more of that, honestly, where people are holding on to the minerals and selling the surface. Just because we like to call it mailbox money. The minerals, you. You just kind of get the money. And there is. There is certainly some management to it, but not near the physical labor required as such as surface ownership.
• 7:10
  Speaker A: Exactly. So do you have a little bit of a rabbit trail here? And then we'll go back to pore space. But do you have members that are just mineral owners?
• 7:21
  Speaker B: Yes, yeah, we have just surface owners, just mineral owners, and then we have some that are both surface and mineral.
• 7:28
  Speaker A: Okay, interesting. Okay, so what is pore space?
• 7:32
  Speaker B: So the pore space, whenever you look at a piece of property, kind of like I was going back to, you see the surface. So then underneath, the ground itself contains minerals. Now, the minerals are typically contained within some type of space. So whether that's between rock or, you know, in a pool of some type, any kind of formation. So the mineral owner actually only owns the molecules of the minerals, which leaves this open space of who owns that. And that poor space is what the carbon sequestration industry was looking to define ownership of.
• 8:23
  Speaker A: And really, those kind of things have been settled in through court, like, through lawsuits. And we kind of, like, wait around until the court tells us.
• 8:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, and this is actually an interesting topic because there is a court case on it. Um, and we feel that that is pretty clear. But a lot of industry doesn't feel that same way.
• 8:45
  Speaker A: So how you. You feel like it's clear? So for the people that are listening, like, what. What does that mean? Who do you. Who do you feel like owns that should own that pore space?
• 8:55
  Speaker B: So the position is that the surface owner owns the pore space, but the mineral owner still contains all of the molecules within the pore space.
• 9:06
  Speaker A: Isn't that fascinating? And, you know, another thing I've seen happening in contracts is that I've seen people, you know, deed the surface and the wind that blows across it and the sun that shines on it.
• 9:21
  Speaker B: Yep. I'm calling all of that job security for me.
• 9:29
  Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. It is amazing what's happening, you know, and in the Industry that you're in, it's. And of course, you know, my husband and I are in the same industry, but that bundle of sticks is what it's called technically, is, you know, the surface is one stick and the minerals are another stick, and the pore space is part of now the surface. And then the wind could be a stick and the solar can be a stick. I mean, it's crazy.
• 9:56
  Speaker B: We are very fortunate in Texas, and I try and remind people of this, but we are so fortunate that technology has advanced to make all of these opportunities available for landowners.
• 10:06
  Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. And in fact, we were visiting with somebody else earlier that we're talking about the potential of, you know, raising up solar panels so that you could go ahead and graze cattle and not just sheep. You know, in some of these areas where we are. Where it's really, you know, it's having to go back to grassland. So then if you have. I mean, that's. That'd be great to be able to have two streams of income on that. And for a landowner to be able to have the right to. To decide if they want to do that is important.
• 10:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:37
  Speaker A: Carbon sequestration. So what they're wanting to do is use that pore space for that. And the. What you're saying is the legislation that they were proposing was that it would belong to who it was that it.
• 10:50
  Speaker B: Would belong to the surface owner.
• 10:53
  Speaker A: Okay, so that's. That. That's the legislation that you proposed.
• 10:56
  Speaker B: The energy industry proposed it, and it was the one piece of the legislation that we could agree to.
• 11:04
  Speaker A: Yes. Okay, that's interesting. So typically, you know, what are you looking for when these bills and things come through? Are you pretty prepared by the time it comes around, the session comes around, and you kind of know the things, the battles that you're gonna have to fight, or are you proposing legislation?
• 11:23
  Speaker B: Well, it depends on what day you asked me, on how prepared I felt during session.
• 11:27
  Speaker A: Well, you never prepare during session. It's before.
• 11:30
  Speaker B: No.
• 11:31
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 11:32
  Speaker B: You know, we have worked really hard to kind of establish a relationship with the energy industry because we also recognize that without their investments in technology, that what we enjoy, the benefits from wouldn't exist. And so we definitely have a symbiotic relationship and try and recognize that. So we have tried to work very hard to build relationships with industry so that we are more aware of what's coming for us. There's always the few that sneak through, you know, that are surprises and. But I think for the most part, we have A pretty good idea as far as proposing legislation. It really just depends. We're looking at a few things. But something else that there's a wrench in a lot of our plans are whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision on a case that impacts our members. One thing that's a little bit unique about us is pretty much all of our members work and interests are contract based. If there's a dispute, it has to go through the court system versus the legislature.
• 12:42
  Speaker A: Oh yeah, that makes sense.
• 12:43
  Speaker B: And as you know, the legislature won't take up a bill if there's an ongoing court case. And so some of our work just depends on the court.
• 12:54
  Speaker A: Right, right, right. And that's what I was referring while ago is so many of these decisions are just, you know, you just kind of sit and wait for like produced water. And that is something that's super of interest to us, especially up here where we're producing so much more water from drilling than we are oil. And what can we do with this produced water? And you guys have, you've done some work in that kind of give us an overview of what the question was. Who owns that produced water that is coming out of the well and containing. I mean, the oil is coming out and this water is coming out and it contains all kinds of stuff and it's complicated because it has to be stored, et cetera, et cetera. But it has also some things in it that could be valuable. So where are we in the state on that?
• 13:46
  Speaker B: So right now the it is the Cactus Water Services versus COG operating, I believe, and that is at the Supreme Court right now, where we have filed a brief in that case actually. And you know, this issue is so complicated and some of it I probably cannot discuss. We haven't taken a formal position on some of the issues at hand, but it's important, I think, you know, not only to ensure that the correct person is being compensated appropriately, but also just for the management of water. You know, we hear so much about water and unfortunately some of our members in South Texas are the brunt of water going into the more metroplex areas like San Antonio. So I think it's, you know, not only is it an ownership piece, I mean that is critical, but we've got a bigger issue on our hands in regards to recycling it and being responsible.
• 14:59
  Speaker A: Water is the biggest challenge our state has. I mean, produced water or fresh water, it is the challenge of our time. And what are we going to do? And, and I'm sure you guys are paying attention to that because water, your Surface owners own that water unless they've sold it off. And so that's another part of. That's another stick in the bundle, and it's probably one of the biggest issues. So what are you looking at on water right now, and what are y'all thinking about and preparing for?
• 15:38
  Speaker B: So right now, I would say we're waiting on the courts for the cactus decision. That's kind of the thing that we're. We're watching. I. I am part of the Texas Produced Water Consortium, so I've been pretty involved in that. We haven't seen too much come out of that just yet, but they're. They're getting going.
• 15:59
  Speaker A: Yes, yes, we are part of the. We work closely with New Mexico produce water. And I mean, I've. We've been so impressed with Mike Hightower that runs that program and New Mexico State. And, you know, they've just. They. They're very organized, and they're doing a lot of. A lot of work, and New Mexico State is a great. It's a great university to work with because they, you know, they're doing a lot of things that maybe they have the money to do those things that some of our other universities don't have, but they're able to really make some strides, and it's been really beneficial being on those committees and listening and hearing what's happening.
• 16:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because people talk about water and kind of, you know, the short supply. And I had a conversation with a group of people two weeks ago working to try and plan an event, and they were like, let's talk about water. And I said, that's great. I said, but, you know, from an ag perspective, something that people also don't think about is farming in the panhandle is drastically different than farming in Central Texas, where I grew up. I. I had never seen a pivot. I had no idea what that was, you know, because we rely on Mother Nature to give us water, and, you know, hopefully she does on a good year. And so, you know, the water use in ag is even a complicated topic.
• 17:33
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've even been like, we should have, like, five separate NRCS organizations. I mean, like, it shouldn't be one in Texas. It should be five, you know, because it's so. It is so vastly different. So vastly different. Yeah. But, you know, and I think that they're just issues that are going to have to be addressed, you know, about how we're going to. Not. Not just with produce water, but with fresh water. You know, meet the demand of the people that are coming into the areas, you know, into Texas, moving here. It's just. It's a lot of them.
• 18:09
  Speaker B: It is, yes.
• 18:11
  Speaker A: So do you. So on the freshwater side, have y'all. What are y'all. You know, what is. What's happening there for you guys? Y'all, you know, y'all being affected. I know you mentioned, like, people in South Texas or those landowners are losing the water that they've had access to. Those farmers are.
• 18:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, our members are definitely impacted. It's not something we work on super closely, just because that's such a localized topic. I don't. I don't really engage with groundwater districts and things like that.
• 18:41
  Speaker A: Yes, right.
• 18:42
  Speaker B: That would be a whole different job for me, I think.
• 18:45
  Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Full time. Full time. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys really. I mean, because it's really. You're statewide. You're working on statewide issues, and these issues are really very much going to be. They're going to have to be decided on those local. But it will, I think, impact you because, you know, if some, you know, some things are happening where, you know, people are, you know, limiting drilling or people are wanting to, you know, track how much water people are using and that kind of thing, I mean, I think that those. Those issues are going to be raised.
• 19:14
  Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I definitely agree with you on that.
• 19:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. So. Well, you have a. You got a busy job.
• 19:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 19:21
  Speaker A: You spend your time. You spend your time doing a lot of work. A lot of hats. Like, when you're doing policy, you gotta know some things about the law and, you know, you have to know a lot about technology. That's it. It's a complicated plus. Just being able to really build. Having the personality to build relationships with people in your membership, but also in the industry is really a gift and I appreciate what you do well.
• 19:48
  Speaker B: Thank you. It's a fun job. It keeps me busy. I'm always learning something, which is great.
• 19:55
  Speaker A: That's very good. So if there's somebody listening, that's like, hey, this is probably something I would benefit from. And I'd like to be able to know more about the Texas Land and Mineral Owners Association. What should they do?
• 20:09
  Speaker B: Well, I would say start at our website. We make it very easy. And we actually just took a letter out of our name to make our. Our initials, so it's just tlma.org okay.
• 20:23
  Speaker A: That's easy. And it will be. It will be linked on the show notes. And also, if people want to get a hold of you we'll link that there as well, if they've got any questions.
• 20:33
  Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. I can always be reached via email. That's honestly the best way. And I'm happy to communicate and get in contact with anybody. As every association in America, I say right now, we are looking for members.
• 20:49
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Yes, yes.
• 20:51
  Speaker B: Yep.
• 20:51
  Speaker A: Well, what you're doing is really important, and it's important, I think, for landowners to. To be paying attention, to have somebody that's. That's paying attention on their behalf, and they. You can't do that without membership.
• 21:03
  Speaker B: No. And, you know, we certainly try our hardest, but I definitely can't do it alone.
• 21:08
  Speaker A: Well, thanks for joining us. And thanks, friends, for joining us for another episode of Conservation Stories. And we look forward to being with you next time.